Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
March 14, 2008
Protest in Lhasa

There are currently some protests by Buddhist monks in Tibet against the Chinese dominated local government. The western media are running the story as some saintly resistance against a brutal occupation. That view is a bit short of history.

Tibet has for centuries been more or less under Chinese hegemonic rule. Usually the Chinese accepted a local leader to rule over Tibet, but they always demanded tribut and a say in the rulers succession process. In 1789 and 1791 China defended Tibet against an invasion by Gurkhas.

In 1904 Britain invaded Tibet, occupied its capital Lhasa and pressed for a "free trade" treaty. China at that time was weakend through the sino-japanese war but in 1910 the Chinese were back in Lhasa only to lose control a few years later when the Qing dynasty went down in a rebellion. There continued to be constant struggle between Russia, Britain and Nepal over influence in Tibet while China was in a period of warlordism and later under Japanese occupation. After he won control over most of China Mao Tse Tung in 1950 reasserted Chinese rule over Tibet, but allowed the local religious aristocracy and government to carry on.

Then most of the Tibetan people were still working as serfs for the big land owners. These were the thousands of monasteries controlled by various lama lineages, feudal religious ruler clans. Despite the peaceful image of Buddhism the various lamas and monasteries regulary fought over territory and economic benefits.

The most powerful lama lineage is that of the Dalai Lama since it was brought into the top position in the 17th century with the help of Mogul invaders. While the successor of a lama is supposed to be a reincarnation of his predecessor, the selection of the new lineage leader, and his education, was and is always a thoroughly political process.

During the 1950s the Chinese implemented land reform and secular schooling in Tibet. The lamas fought against the loss of their economic, social and political power by sending their monks into the streets. With the active help of the CIA the lamas had some success against the communists, but the movement was crushed when in 1959 the Chinese again occupied the capital and the seat of the Dalai Lama, Lhasa. Financed by the CIA, the Dalai Lama fled to India to set up an exile government.

Other parts of the resistance continued with U.S. support until the late 60s, when Kissinger and Nixon changed the general U.S. policy towards China and the CIA withdrew the financing.

Since he went into exile the Dalai Lama has become a darling of "western" do-gooders and governments who call for his reinstatement in Lhasa.

This week marked the 49th anniversary of Dalai Lama’s getaway and there are again some protest by a few hundred monks in Lhasa. The local government in Tibet has put the three main monasteries in Lhasa under lockdown and will certainly quash any bigger attempt of rebellion.

Predictably the "west" is using the situation to put pressure on China.

Supporters of the Dalai Lama ofter praise the professed peacefulness of Buddhism. While at its core Buddhism, like other major religions, is peaceful, it has been abused in Tibet to suppress the many and to enrich the few. The feudal-religious linage of the Dalai Lama is the biggest symbol of this.

Would his re-installation into the Potala Palace in Lhasa really be for the good of the Tibetian people?

Comments

also see michael parenti’s 2003 article in swan’sFriendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth
(and, letters to editor in response)

Posted by: b real | Mar 14 2008 18:52 utc | 1

b
thanks for this post. while i feel very uncomfortable with what the chinese are doing generally – for all manner of reasons that have little to do with imperialsm’s project – what you have recounted in brief – is in fact the real history. one that is almost never told. i don’t think it could be argued that tibet constituted an imperial project by mao – nor that its work there ended a brutal feudalism of which the clergy were the principal benefactors
i know you feel close to buddhism & a post like this must be difficult but the facts ought to be known
this fucking administration in those united states is shooting across the bows everwhere this week – iran, venezuela, ecaudor & china
while in the same week the tribal tools of the c i a in vietnam – the hmong people – are left – like they leave all their vassals – in utter defeat & degredation

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Mar 14 2008 21:20 utc | 2

A gross translation of a Danish phrase could be, “the truth has a lot of footnotes”.
Nothing is ever as simple as a headline or a sound bite.

Posted by: Chuck Cliff | Mar 14 2008 21:26 utc | 3

You’ve just blown my whole fantasy of Tibet and the Dalai Lama, b. While I reserve judgement for time to digest what I’ve just read, I recognize immediately a propaganda program of over 50 years that I’ve bought into.
Shit, but thanks for again jolting my long fast held beliefs in the direction of reality.

Posted by: Juannie | Mar 14 2008 22:15 utc | 4

Every single land in the whole area has been part of some Great Game in the last 100 years, or even more.
And Tibet was a kind of backwards place wor any Westerner or westernised person – and in a way, a marxist-inspired Mao was logically a bit influenced by Western ideas.
Tibet had been basically a vassal of China since 18th, but I’m not sure it could be considered as “part of China” before 19th, at the very least. And there’s without any doubt some kind of payback from China for the considerable trouble Tibet caused in the long past, notably plundering and burning Chinese capital.
That said, I really can’t go and say “well, they’re better off now under Han colonization and Chinese rule so let it remain that way without independance or even autonomy”. One can’t on one hand, and with reason, denounce Western imperialism and neo-colonialism, and West’s tentation to impose unasked-for westernised regimes and ideals on unsuspecting societies resulting in massive and sudden changes in their cultures, and say that all is well when Beijing does it; that’s double standards in my opinion. Either the Raj, Vietnam war, the Iraqi adventure, and current Chinese occupation are mistakes if not worse, and should go (or should have gone) the way of the dodo, or all had to an extent a minimal amount of justification and can’t be dismissed that easily.
Though the current troubles seem a bit too timely to be a spontaneous popular movement, definitely.

Posted by: CluelessJoe | Mar 15 2008 0:55 utc | 5

clueless
it is a far from perfect situation
i also think it is important that the counternarratives exist not only to offer us context but also substance
i don’t think b is suggesting that the new emporers in china have the monopoly on goodwill either. as with b’s posts on myanmar & b real’s on rawanda offer us other kernels of knowledge & as far as i am concerned the more channels of knowledge which are open, the better

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Mar 15 2008 1:23 utc | 6

The Tibetans are pawns in an ideological game of “gotcha”. They’re happy now that they’ve been re-occupied by the Chinese and diabused of their fucking religious belief-system. Poor serf-like simpletons. They should know better than to chafe at occupation and complain that it stinks.
/sarcasm
/disgust

Posted by: Copeland | Mar 15 2008 1:59 utc | 7

Always in the case of occupation and colonization, you see the cultural and political purification imposed by the outsiders. In the case of Tibet, more and Chinese faces; they were literally brought in by the trainloads. The Tibetans have become second-class citizens in their own land. The rationalization implies that they are better off, after their whole world has been taken away. After their religious leader is driven into exile. After their holy places are reduced to curio status and museum artifacts. This kind of cultural imperialism makes me angry.
East/West, Communist/Captialist, Great Game, ipso facto reductivist crap makes my head explode. Who speaks for the Inca, the Mayan, the Sioux, the Palestinian, every shat upon civilization that goes under the cultural steamroller?

Posted by: Copeland | Mar 15 2008 2:29 utc | 8

For every Pole historically repressed by the Russians and the Germans, there are Lithuanians historically oppressed by the Poles.
For every Lithuanian historically oppressed by the Poles, there are Ukrainians and Belarussians historically exploited by the Lithuanians.
For every Belarussian historically exploited by the Lithuanians, there are…
It never stops, does it?

Posted by: kao-hsien-chih | Mar 15 2008 4:24 utc | 9

General kao-hsien-chih, has it about right…
Tis the way of the world, of the common man…
But it doesn’t have to be this way… sigh..

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Mar 15 2008 5:18 utc | 10

It’s too bad one must maintain a constant stance of skepticism when it comes global protest movements. Free Tibet, if you remember, had a big concert full of hip musical acts, which made the predictable media splash it was intended to make, like the seven continent musical jerk-off put on last year to bring “awareness” to global warming.
Like Juannie, I’ve also been duped by what seems on the surface to be well intentioned organizations, like Nature Conservancy, only to realize later who sits on the board of directors. Unfortunately this is exactly where they want us to be, unable to believe in anything presented by a compromised mass-media Goliath ready to assist in political assassinations (Spitzer) without connecting the relevant dots (Washington and Wallstreets complicity in predatory lending)
Thank you b, and all the contributors here at MoA. Visiting this forum is never a waste of time.

Posted by: Lizard | Mar 15 2008 6:14 utc | 11

For my own part I like to think ‘it had to be this way’. A limit on intelligence means disorder, against death and pain we must writhe in madness and eat one another. It is a standing wave in the collective, serving up many individuals for lunch, for which they impossibly find restoration. Infinity must bear fruit, which must come from unknowing.
The scribe did leave out measures of serf quality of life. For then, and now. The tibet bourgeoise meme needs a little more look-see. Forced sterilization was probably not on the menu back then. The Dalai Lama brings a pretty good word, compassion. Thatz a pretty good goddam word.
🙂

Posted by: bellgong | Mar 15 2008 6:18 utc | 12

Always in the case of occupation and colonization, you see the cultural and political purification imposed by the outsiders. In the case of Tibet, more and Chinese faces; they were literally brought in by the trainloads. The Tibetans have become second-class citizens in their own land. The rationalization implies that they are better off, after their whole world has been taken away.
@Copeland – for trainloads of Han Chinese in Tibet, thouse numbers are disputed and the argument rests on what parts of the country really are Tibetian. Those parts have changed hands so often that it is hard to tell.
I didn’t want to defend the Chinese in the above – I certainly have much reason to critizise them. But there is also reason to critizise the lamas. The “western” press is not objective in its view and as Juannie says, this is a permanent propaganda campaign.
Is the above reductivist? Yes – but it is more complete than the usual tale clad in orange monk drap.
What does the Dalai Lama really mean when he wants to “return Tibet to its original culture”? Isn’t he simply demanding to be god-king again?

Posted by: b | Mar 15 2008 6:26 utc | 13

I’m with b here, particularly the Gelugpa school of the DL, is in fact an archly hierarchical and heavily regimented power structure…JFK Jr. personally authored an article about this in George magazine back in the 1990’s.
Some may want to listen to this…“Hell-O Dalai”!

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Mar 15 2008 6:55 utc | 14

@bellgong – forced sterilization is not exactly a Chinese invention and it is not clear how much it was used there.
Compassion, yes, in original Buddhism there is a lot of compassion. But that doesn’t mean that the monks live it.
See for example the controversy in the Karmapa ‘black hat’ lineage (one of the four big Tibetian linages and the one I am more or less affiliated with).
Who is the real reincarnated 17th Karmapa? The one recognized by the Chinese and the Dalai Lama or the one recognized by the Sharmarpa? There has been more than one ‘compassionate’ mass fist-fight over this and the rule over the Rumtek monastery.

Posted by: b | Mar 15 2008 7:01 utc | 15

Eye witness report in the Guardian: ‘Oh my God, someone has a gun …’

“Oh my God. Oh no. That’s crazy. One hundred people are trying to stone one man. A man was trying to cross the street with his motorcycle – they were trying to stone him but it’s so crowded I can’t see whether they got him or not.

“The residents are very angry. They are throwing stones at anyone who is Han [Chinese] or from other minorities like the Hui, who are Muslims. It seems like it’s ethnic – like they want to kill anyone not Tibetan.
“I would say it’s a riot here but I think in the centre it’s worse. There’s a lot of smoke – we can see it where there have been burnings. I heard people saying the authorities were firing, using guns. We don’t know.
Here we have seen people trying to stone anyone they can – Han and other minorities, not foreigners. The Tibetans had stones and knives. I saw Chinese people running away – there was nothing they could do.
“We don’t see any police around here. Maybe they’re all in the centre and are too busy. It’s very violent.

Posted by: b | Mar 15 2008 10:18 utc | 16

I think it is quite sad that the PTB must tie politics to the Olympic games. What is the goal? to merely humiliate the Chinese?
certainly this is not the first time, I remember the US boycotting the games in Moscow and the Russians retaliating in Los Angeles (that was quite good for the US as they were able to win many medals that would have otherwise gone to the Russians) but somehow I thought they had got past this foolishness.
Whether there is tension or strife in Tibet is hardly a concern of the US or GB or any other world power. As another famous religious guy once said, “let he who is without sin cast the first stone”.
at any rate, if the article b references above is a glimpse into the things that are to come in Tibet, my guess is there will be a great deal of pain and suffering for all who live there, whether they are chinese or tibetan. I simply do not see a happy ending.

Posted by: dan of steele | Mar 15 2008 12:25 utc | 17

“What is the goal? to merely humiliate the Chinese?”
It would be utterly foolish, in my opinion. Like Putin with Kosovo, there will be payback in the future, and these guys are smarter than BushCo.
And of course, a Tibetan uprising of any sort has no chance of succeeding; like the Kurds, Tibetans will be left to their own when repression will come back, after having been convinced to rebel by other powers.
It would be interesting to see what kind and what amount of natural resources are in Tibet, to have an idea of what the players have really in mind.

Posted by: CluelessJoe | Mar 15 2008 14:34 utc | 18

Clueless,
from what I can find, it seems that Tibet has a lot of water and that is a resource that is even more valuable than petroleum.
even now people will happily spend a dollar on a pint of water and scream bloody murder when paying 4 dollars for a gallon of gas which is exactly half of what they are paying for the water.

Posted by: dan of steele | Mar 15 2008 15:20 utc | 19

the mystical appreciation Tibet commands in the West is ironic because if the British or other Euro-colonialists would have gotten their hands on Tibet, like everywhere else, they would installed systems & governments that favored their Euro-interests with complete disregard for the local histories or cultures or languages.

Posted by: jony_b_cool | Mar 15 2008 16:15 utc | 20

thanks for this post B. Seeing the title, I was going to type “de Dalai is a CIA agent” and be done with it, looking foolish.
“In 1999 more than 1000 researchers divided into 24 separate regiments and fanned out across the Qinghai-Tibet Plateau, geologically mapping an area the size of California, Texas and Montana for the first time ever. Their findings: 16 major new deposits of copper, iron, lead, zinc and other minerals worth an estimated $128 billion, according to articles published last week on the website of the China Tibet Information Center, a government-run portal.
“Lack of resources has been a bottleneck for the economy,” Meng Xianlai, director of the China Geological Survey, said in the statements. The discoveries in Tibet are prompting China to re-evaluate its potential domestic resources, and “will alleviate the mounting resources pressure China is facing.”
In fact, if proven, the new reserves make Tibet one of the richest regions in China’s territory and could shift the country’s reliance on imports of copper and iron altogether .. Fortune Feb. 07
Also logging (tremendous), gold, geo thermal energy (no fossil fuel deposits afaik), grass lands converted to agri. (disrupting nomadism) – and of course it is the source of many major rivers, >water, >hydro power (see the Chinese dams.)
The country is open to foreign investment. (99). Canada is *very* active in mining in Tibet, as are the Brits. And others in other areas.
one article off google: link
Flaunting saffron drapery both serves to obscure and resist. Holiday Inn was thrown out, a gold co. as well I recall.

Posted by: Tangerine | Mar 15 2008 17:06 utc | 21

I find it difficult to agree with your point, b. Tibet is a very good candidate for an independent nation. Much better than Kosovo. It has a highly defined culture with ethnic separation from the Han Chinese. And a well defined land area – though obviously in a continental land mass there is some intershading.
In medieval times there was a Tibetan empire. There’s a book about it:
Beckwith, C. I., 1987, The Tibetan Empire in Central Asia, A History of Struggle for Great Power among Tibetans, Turks, Arabs and Chinese in the Early Middle Ages, Princeton.
Yes, there is a history of Chinese control, as in Sinkiang. But what you are defending, b, is imperialism. And I’m surprised to see you doing it.

Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 15 2008 17:58 utc | 22

that was me at 22

Posted by: Alex | Mar 15 2008 17:59 utc | 23

But what you are defending, b, is imperialism. And I’m surprised to see you doing it.
I have a bit of a different interpretation on imperialism as you might assume.
Britain “owning” India is imperialism. The U.S. “owning” Iraq is imperialism. That is something I will never defend.
Russia and Ukraine? Not so much of imperialism – common border, 50% of Russian ethnicy in the Ukraine, long historic relations, same religion/philosophy. England – Wales? Syria – Lebanon? Both, in my view are arguably not imperialistic.
My point isn’t defending Han-Chinese rule in Tibet. The above post wasn’t intended to do that.
The point I tried to make is about “western” “left” support for some CIA financed exile king-god ruler in some backwater country the “west” has no ethnic, religious or geographic contingency with.
In general I do not support “small nation” nationalism where the nation has less than, say 10 million people (Tibet has 2.5 million or so). In a world with 6.5 billion people such nations will be either false in the sense of being permanently bribed and abused by outer far away powers and/or defenseless against their neighbors.
(Kosovo is btw a mess that may well suicide the EU and NATO.)
I hope for democratic “conglomerates” of nations under a regional roof where there is inner autonomy for smaller groops on the regional level, while outer autonomy is guaranteed by the bigger organisation. China, in my view, is on the way of getting there (antropological core numbers for this development are high female literacy and low birth rates – China is good in both).
My last sentence in the above piece was this:
Would [the Dalai Lama’s] re-installation into the Potala Palace in Lhasa really be for the good of the Tibetian people?
The current answer in my view is “No”. That doesn’t imply Han-Chinese rule on the ground. But the bigger Chinese entity could be the overall “conglomerate” for an autonomous Tibet.
Economic develop numbers of Tibet in the last two decades are quite positive. Would a monastery based religious-political system have been able to achive such? I doubt that.
You may differ on that view and I really would like to hear the arguments on why I am wrong here. I may well be, but the former existance of an medieval Tibetian empire is hardly an argument against an assumed Chinese empire. Why was A good and is B bad?
If the criteria for a “nation” is a defined “landmass” and “culture” Germany again should fall apart into Bavaria, Prussia and some 50 other states. Is that desireable?

Posted by: b | Mar 15 2008 19:16 utc | 24

As I said in my first post: I reserve judgement for time to digest what I’ve just read.
I have a few further comments.
Would [the Dalai Lama’s] re-installation into the Potala Palace in Lhasa really be for the good of the Tibetian people?
My answer is yes. But my answer depends on how I define “for the good of”. Your comment, Economic develop numbers of Tibet in the last two decades are quite positive, implies that the good is defined by “economic development”. I would prefer a definition in the direction of “quality of life for inhabitants”.
Everything I can remember reading implies a high standard of quality, contentment and love of community life for Tibetians. Every account I’ve read of pre-industrial Western/Chines cultural intervention, every individual who trekked the regions and associated with the “people” indicate a remarkable joy of life as a standard for the many.
We heirs to the economic/industrial culture of Western Civilization assume (it’s deeply imprinted) that economic accumulation is the imperative to happiness. We seldom question the roots of civilization (as anthropologically defined) and civilization’s dependance on violence, subjugation, slavery and continued growth in a finite world. Who in our cultures aren’t really fucked-up and mostly alienated from the nature of our recent evolutionary ancestors, i.e. family/tribe and our environment and land base upon which our survival depends. The economic model today subsumes all that to trivia and I strenuously disagree.
There may have been a lot of strife and turbulence in Tibet for centuries but they seem to have acquired a more conscious disposition for life that Western or Chinese cultures. Which national despot dominating these people is the most desirable seems mute to the idea that the people should and could choose their own “despot” if the economically civilized would back off or be crushed out of existence under the weight of their own follies.

Posted by: Juannie | Mar 15 2008 20:26 utc | 25

Thank you for your lengthy reply, b (24).
I agree, and think, that it is important to distinguish between Western attitudes towards China and human rights (which may well be hypocritical, and I believe they are), and the essential value of an argument for independent identity.
The fact that Tibet may have been still medieval (should the Dalai Lama return to the Potala Palace?) is not a justification. It was an argument often used to support imperialism (eg. the Italians in Ethiopia).
Equally, the metric that you use, b, that there are only 2.5 million Tibetans is the wrong choice, as Tibet is a highland country with a low population.
The Tibetans are very different from the Chinese. To compare the situation with the difference between the German Länder, or that between the Russians and Ukraine or Belarus is invalid. Micro-differences in Europe are being compared to vast differences in Asia. Of course, cultural differences are a sliding scale, greyscales if you like, not absolute differences.
China is the last relic on Earth of a multi-ethnic empire. Validly compared with the Soviet Union, but not the relationship between Russia and Ukraine, but rather that between Russia and Uzbekistan.
In fact, I am not much interested in Tibet, nor know much about it, but it seemed to me necessary to defend them, on the principle of self-determination considered as valid elsewhere. I am more interested in the Uyghurs in Sinkiang, who have an equal case for independence, and are being treated by Peking in the same way.
The question is: will anti-nationalism, as played by Peking, survive, or, in these demonstrations in Lhasa, are we looking at the perhaps primitive beginnings of wider nationalist movements.

Posted by: Alex | Mar 15 2008 20:51 utc | 26

in general I do not support “small nation” nationalism where the nation has less than, say 10 million people (Tibet has 2.5 million or so). In a world with 6.5 billion people such nations will be either false in the sense of being permanently bribed and abused by outer far away powers and/or defenseless against their neighbors.
(Kosovo is btw a mess that may well suicide the EU and NATO.)
I hope for democratic “conglomerates” of nations under a regional roof where there is inner autonomy for smaller groops on the regional level, while outer autonomy is guaranteed by the bigger organisation. China, in my view, is on the way of getting there (antropological core numbers for this development are high female literacy and low birth rates – China is good in both).

i believe the essence of b’s argument is here & from where i sit – it seems a completely correct analysis
& juannie – tibet was very far from being perfect @ even sympathetic histories acknowledge the utterly despotic rule & the feudal practices that corrupted its rulers
i had the good fortune to have my heart broken very early in the game. i was in china at the end of the cultural revolution & what i dreamed was not was – but i at one point idolised china in a way some people seem to idolise tibet. such reiification will never be met by the reality & that is why counternarratives by people with information are not only necessary but vital

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Mar 15 2008 22:36 utc | 27

I agree with everything that Juannie writes @ 25.
What stands between the Chinese occupiers and the Tibetans is a profound cultural divide. The materialistic outlook that focuses on extraction, and the subjugation of culture to the ends of extraction, is very much at the heart of what is destroying the “West”. Uncriticized growth, exploitation, unsustainable extraction in a finite system, and military muscle to perpetuate the logos of materialism/consumerism, even when the limits of logic and utility have been breached: this is the definition of the virus we have contracted in the “West”. The prognosis does not look good.
China is part of the West, if by the West, you mean this addiction to materialism in its grossest, unsustainable form. Putin’s Russia and the American Empire are in the same boat.
When American Manifest Destiny came to the Black Hills of the Dakotas, the Great White Father at first made a treaty with the Lakota Nation (the Sioux) that they should possess the sacred Black Hills, that were holy to the Lakota, along with surounding plains “for as long as the grass grows and the rains fall and the sun shines”. But the abrogation of treaty promises has been, and remains, a specialty of the US government.
White settlers and prospectors found gold, while they were trespassing on these lands. The treaty was ignored in Washington; more settlers trespassed; there were armed clashes with the Sioux, and the cavalry was sent in to clear away the natives, the rightful inhabitants.
But of course it didn’t, and doesn’t, end there. Later, after the tribe had been introduced to European (not unlike modern Chinese) realism. It was necessary to continue and consolidate assimilation on a cultural plane. After the Black Hills were seized for commercial purposes and the tribe confined to the Reservation, there grew up a religious ceremony called the “Ghost Dance”: singing, dancing, and consecration, around the idea of a rebirth and renewal of Native American ways, restoring primacy to the earth, the sanctity of the natural world, and the harmonious relationship of people to that world.
This religious ceremony, which was catching on with other tribes besides the Sioux, was repressed with extreme violence by US Authorities. Men, women, children–anyone found to be participating in the Ghost Dance–were massacred where they stood.
The Chinese occupiers have been following the well-travelled path of those who erase, or try to erase, the culture of people they intend to bring to heel and exploit. One of the most insidious things the Chinese have done is to manipulate the selection process of the High Lama. But it is not the only thing they have done to subvert Tibetan society. Han Chinese faces have multiplied in their midst; and the physical presence has been meant to reinfoce the idea that their country is no longer the place they grew up in.

Posted by: Copeland | Mar 15 2008 23:04 utc | 28

i believe the essence of b’s argument is here & from where i sit – it seems a completely correct analysis(rgiap 27)
Like I said, numbers are the wrong metric in the case of Tibet.

Posted by: Alex | Mar 15 2008 23:05 utc | 29

copeland & alex
in this world, a world that is permitting at this moment the destruction, the complete destruction of the cradle of civilasation in iraq & the wholesale murder of its people augmented by an assassination programme that has reduced the intellectuals & the cadre to next to nothing – i see the situation in tibet as nowhere near as critical. i don’t mean that in a offhand manner – simply at this moment the critical defeat of the u s empire is required, that there has to be sufficient time for latin america to act on its dreaming & construct something than can withstand the kind of assault that a only a dying imperialism is capable of
in my life i concentrate on those two foci. i do not approve of the new emporers in peking & believe imperialistic energies if not imperialism itself. the pursuers of this line were deng xiao ping & what were one called ‘capitalist roaders’ – i hope that they have not debased or betrayed the socialist experiment which is people’s china
neither copeland or alex – counter that the despotic rule that existed before 1949 was at the heart of the accession of the tibetian people to china, an empire’s hold over a nation is not forever – history teaches us that – & history teaches us that resistance is a natural outcome
what we have not seen in tibet – is this resistance. whatever way you want to put it – it is & theocratic oligarchy protecting its interests – it is not & has never been a people’s movement in the same way for example that the maoists in india actually control & administer large swathes of territory because they have a base amongst the people – they are not just a movement – or a rabble led by an elite to protect its own interests. the tamil tigers are another case
what i am not prepared to do – which you both seem to be doing is to cast aside the history that the chinese people have created in an experiment that is only paranthetically tied to the leadership of the communist party. i accept that is a heresy but it is the truth & i think in the final analysis the chinese are capable of dealing with the nation question without steamrolling thse nationalities or their own people
for me, the cancer in china at the moment is that there is too little mao tse tung & too much milton friedman

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Mar 15 2008 23:50 utc | 30

I’m sorry but I have to sleep, but:
the history that the chinese people have created
I’m sorry but I don’t know many who would include the Tibetans in this group.
for me, the cancer in china at the moment is that there is too little mao tse tung & too much milton friedman
Again, sorry, what has this got to do with Tibet? I don’t think that anyone could argue anything else but that China conquered Tibet, and that one day Tibet should have a right to determine its future. Like I said above, I am not a Tibetophile nor have any interest in Tibet, but it seems to me clear that Tibet is different from China, that China conquered the territory, and that the people should have a right to self-determination. If the Tibetans were given that right to a referendum, I am certain that they would vote with around 80% majority for independence. Of course the picture has been muddied by the deliberate importation of large numbers of Han Chinese. It is probably similar to Kazakhstan, where only 40% are Kazakhs.
I could tell you stories about Kazakhstan and the consequences of population import, but that is irrelevant to the point. The point is that Kazakhstan has successfully transitioned to independence.

Posted by: Alex | Mar 16 2008 0:38 utc | 31

alex
as i understood it the chinese constitute a relatively insignificant part of the population -& that that population was not fixed. i also understand that with the new trainline the chinese perhaps have attempted to ‘swamp’ tibet with tourists but i do not see the malevolence that you obviouslly do
but i’m not here to defend china – rather to take point with an idealised history of tibet that has little to do with the facts

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Mar 16 2008 1:18 utc | 32

Ahhhh, I was wondering why this was all of a sudden an issue, that seemed to come out of no where, I think I’m begining to see why now, because it’s propagenda and strategy 24/7 or in other words, the Dueling Human Rights Reports: The United States vs. China. amirite?

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Mar 16 2008 1:29 utc | 33

look i neither mean to be snide or dismissive. but i think it is a genuinely complex question. & a question that has already affected me personally – i have a sister who is a principal in the free tibet movement & this question has brought with it a multitude of questions to which i feel i do not have the response. i am less confused by the politics than the history which has many intra & interdependances
what i can say without question is that i do not believe in divinities. nor divine human beings. whether that’s the dalai lama or the panzerpapen. if there are such human beings they are closer to chris hanni or nelson mandela or sisilu – that is extraordinary human beings wrought from the heart of a people

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Mar 16 2008 1:30 utc | 34

the error of the chinese was to not cage nixon & kissinger & sell them to the mongolians as bait for hunting

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Mar 16 2008 1:33 utc | 35

r’giap,
Bush’s unitary executive, Putin’s fiat, and China’s experiment have a common ground in authoritarianism. West has subsumed East. They have their collective ear to our telephones, they are keeping tabs on our internet transactions. The value of the brand: Gazprom or General Electric is paramount. Solidarity is betrayed for a few pieces of silver and a standard of living second to none.
China’s industrial regions are on the verge of sinking into a slough of pollution. Political tunnel vision and conformity and cultural debasement and vulgarity are the trends in these “advanced societies”.
Only in societies like Latin America,or other places, where traditional culture, communities of solidarity, and democratic traditions hold off Mammon, is there any chance for a government of the people.
It hurts a little my friend, when you suggest that I am taking my eye off the US atrocity in Iraq, or that my concern for a nation of 2.5 million people in Tibet is some kind of diversion from what is more important.

Posted by: Copeland | Mar 16 2008 1:37 utc | 36

copeland
you know that was never my intent- i respect your post here too much to even infer that. i think i was talking about my own concentration of energies rather than to make points with people who are friends. but as i’ve said i welcome b’s post & welcome it more because i imagine it comes from the heart. a heart that is torn a little by the tortuous evenements of our epoch

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Mar 16 2008 1:58 utc | 37

Thanx to Bernhard and all you mind speaking contributors for this absorbing post and its comments.
My thoughts on B’s question – would the Dalai Lama’s re-installation into the Potala Palace in Lhasa really be for the good of the Tibetian people – are based on my general motto when it comes to making decisions, which is along the lines of Kant’s moral imperative, “act (and by implication think) based only on principles which you wish to see applied to everyone”, or in other words don’t do upon others what you don’t want to have done to yourself. In that sense, B’s question can only be answered by Tibetan themselves.
It is nobody else’s beeswax. If a majority of Tibetan residents think they’d be better off under the Dalai Lamas Rule, who are we to say they aren’t. Fact is however that Tibetans can’t express their collective will on this matter via fair elections and the current outbreak of violence is a logical consequence.
On this one the Chinese government has no one else but itself to blame. Any half decent political advisor could foresee that activists and regime opponents within the Chinese territory would use this Olympic once in a lifetime opportunity to rattle the cage. Parallel to the necessary infrastructure being build, political concessions and negotiations for more autonomy should have been initiated to alleviate the need for violent outbursts.
I am in agreement with B tho on his argument that when it comes to separatist movements, where do you draw the line? Having lived for parts of my life in Bavaria, I know for a fact that there is a popular sentiment in that state to cut loose from the rest of the German Federation. It is calling itself still “Freistaat Bayern”, the free state of Bavaria. And with 12.5 million people it would, according to B’s threshold, even classify as a viable nation. Would it make sense tho? I very much doubt it. For a variety of reasons, not least being that even within Bavaria there is no unity. In the early 1800’s Napoleon incorporated Franconia into the Bavarian state, and to this day do the Franks have their own flag and many openly suggest it would be in the Franks interest to secede from Bavaria. Where will it end?
The cultural desire for independence can be found in many countries, from the Basques in Spain, Quebec in Canada, the Chechens in Russia to Kashmir in India, I believe there are few countries which don’t have some group with the aspiration to become independent or at least more autonomous, albeit often for economic reasons the issue is kept on the backburner. If bloodshed is to be avoided what is needed are political processes and channels that would-be separatists can draw on in order to gain more political and financial autonomy within the existing nation state.
Assuming for instance Tibet does win its independence, what do you think the Dalai Lama would say if the Muslim Tibetan population reminded themselves of their historic cultural connection with Kashmiri India and want to split? What if the Han Chinese who’ve been living in Tibet for many many generations now decide they want their own patch? If we support the idea of independence for one people, we’ve got to for all.
I very much understand the sentiment in Tibet to break away from Chinese territory and rule. A seriously corrupt Chinese bureaucracy oversees a law enforcement scheme in which human rights are a joke, all the while busy undermining and eroding the cultural heritage of the region’s traditional owners. Robbed of political and religious freedoms, what remains are the streets.
The massacre during the Tiananmen Square protests is a stark reminder that what we see in Tibet now is not meant to be seen with a surprised look on the face, Tibetans with a bit of foresight could have predicted the brutal crack down. The Chinese government is without scruples when it comes to using deadly force instead of non-lethal means to stop protests.
The governments overreaction is a clear sign of blatant disregard for civil rights, and quite frankly, who wouldn’t want to secede? I surely would if I’d be living there. But would I join groups of people “erupting into anti-Chinese rioting, burning and smashing Chinese-owned shops, offices and restaurants? No, waisted energy.
I am afraid that what is unfolding in Tibet is for Chinese authorities however not so much a Tibetan issue as it is a Chinese issue, precedents are being established, which potentially could have far reaching consequences for the greater Chinese empire, right down to Taiwan. Go easy on Tibetan protests and calls for independence and the chances are you’ll have the whole house on fire before the Olympics end. Hence its hardline stance.
To sum up, I strongly empathize with the Tibetan struggle to end Chinese rule in Tibet, this however not for historic reasons, but because I can identify with the Tibetans need to rid themselves of a brutal and self-serving non-elected government.
Having said that, as much as I understand their motivation – violent protests, especially not if they are directed against ethnical minorities, are however not the appropriate choice of action to achieve meaningful progress on that road. In China they are bound to bring deaths and suffering for achieving very little benefits for the cause. A concerted media and PR strategy advising the world well in advance that peaceful mass protests will be staged in Tibet and Beijing during the Olympics, would have put the Chinese authorities far more under international pressure to let these marches proceed and thus get the world wide exposure for the issues, than a sporadic outburst of smaller demos mixed with violence and broken windows, causing the to be expected casualties and further harsh measures shutting down many of the remaining freedoms.

Posted by: Juan Moment | Mar 16 2008 5:34 utc | 38

Your article is so pro chinese, I wonder if you are from chinese govt.
taking over another country and its people is not as beautiful as you make it sound. You can understand that if you or your country has suffered. Its understandable if you are from china or west.

Posted by: unos | Mar 16 2008 12:33 utc | 39

many separatist groups would settle for autonomy rather than outright independence. Because behind most separatist groups, theres a genuine & deep yearning for “expression” thats denied them by the imposition of another language, hegemony, influence, culture, system of government … eg Kurd, Quebec, Baltics, Biafra, Czech, Tamil …
we are still in the first stage of the neo-colonial period and its not surprising that virtually all recent successful & peaceful national re-structures have occurred in the European world — Quebec, the former USSR, Czech, Scotland, Serbia/Montenegro. Just as interestingly, the only successful aggregation (the EU) is likewise in the European world.
this just proves that Europeans are still learning as they go along. In fact an EU-type structure that similarly & responsibly accommodates language/cultural boundaries is one that would have been much much much for Africa rather than the slop-shod arbitrary structure criminally imposed on Africa by Europe in 1914.
also, the most rebellious/nationalist groups may be just as able to become the most accommodating on matters of co-operation and integration as long as its their choice.
hence, when people from the Euro-centric school of thought get into matters of nationhood, particularly regarding cultures that have been around for thousands of years and gone through more cycles of system than contemporary Euro-centrics can even began to imagine, it just makes one very nervous.

Posted by: jony_b_cool | Mar 16 2008 14:56 utc | 40

Personally, I wouldn’t use population size as a sufficient or necessary requirement for autonomy or independance. I’d use the range of cultural difference, which means that when there’s a sizable language or religion difference, for instance, there’s a far more serious case for autonomy than when it’s just one area wanting to get its pie and eat it too (like N Italian League wanting to secede). In this way, Tibetans or Kurds have a far more reasonable argument to make than Bavarians, for instance. Not that it means that everyone should have its own independance, when our world is facing global challenges and threats to its very own existence.
Then of course, jony b cool was totally right in saying that, had Tibet remained independant and free from too much Chinese meddling, it would probably have succumbed to more Westernisation. as long as major powers aren’t ready to leave smaller countries and societies to leave peacefully and quietly as they want to, they will always be caught between a rock and a hard place.
Thanks for pointing the copper and other natural resources recently discovered there. I of course knew the paramount importance with regard to fresh water, since most of S and E Asia big rivers come straight down from Tibet, but I was wondering what other key resources might lie there. Not surprised that there doesn’t seem to be much oil; it would be quite surprising geologically.

Posted by: CluelessJoe | Mar 16 2008 16:34 utc | 41

An eye-witness account of events in Lhasa:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7299642.stm
It seems to me that it supports what I was saying. This is not a minor case of Basques setting off the odd bomb.

Posted by: Alex | Mar 16 2008 21:58 utc | 42

To paraphrase a tv show Ishael Reed tells us isn’t to be watched because of it’s racist subtext “here we go again giving a fuck when it isn’t our business to give a fuck”. By we I mean the west, ‘developed world” first world or whatever is the current acceptable nom ge guerre for the predominantly white consumerist power bloc.
By giving a fuck I mean expressing opinions on a situation which is so far removed from our own communities that virtually every information source must be treated sceptically until its veracity can be verified and most information is totally unverifiable. Yet we do know that all the information channels out of Tibet have an agenda, and that agenda will cause them to distort to ensure the facts don’t get in the way of their story.
I must respectfully disagree with M.Giap’s assertion that societies of less than “say 10 million” should not be encouraged because they are too weak and susceptible to outside pressure. It is only if humans can reduce all societies down the molar size of their culture that we will again be able to live in a world where we can: “Hold the bastards accountable”.
That said before “giving a fucK” over Tibet there are a number of issues that we must be certain of prior approval/disapproval of any of the recent ‘events’.
Firstly is the restoration of the Dalai Lama’s regime the best way for Tibetans to achieve self determination? I doubt that moving back to a feudal system of government with an agrarian economy which can only support it’s population if large sections of the community are denied the right to marry and reproduce is a positive. Many Tibetans were kept on a subsistence level in monasteries and nunneries that way ensuring that tenacies weren’t sub-divided smaller every generation. Is this necessarily the best way forward for the people of Tibet? Of course the insurrection may be promoting a new form of nationalism and the exiled old leaders supporting the self determination without demanding a return to the old authoritarian regime. But remember Thailand is a staunchly Buddhist nation that has no trouble slipping on the mantle of an authoritarian military state when the rich have to be protected so don’t imagine that Buddhism per se is a sign of gentleness.
Is the primary aim of the people who organised this protest season in 2008 to achieve self determination for Tibet or is to embarrass China just as the Olympics are about to begin?
I’m sure many of the protesters in the streets believe they are fighting for self determination but that doesn’t mean everyone involved at the top is. This is an issue people must be certain of before jumping to one side or other of this fray. Those providing material and moral support from outside Tibet are quite capable of not giving a fuck next year when the Chinese security services move through the state rounding people up in a way they couldn’t before the Olympics have been held.
Cynical abuse of humans’ long held instincts of nationalism is a tool of the current amerikan empire that we have seen used time and time again. Ask the Shia in southern Iraq what they think of amerika’s penchant for ‘moving on after they have made their point’.
Meddling at the moment would not be to achieve any particular end within the republic of China other than distraction and hassles. However it makes it easier to paint China as hypocritical when they won’t support USuk attacks on Iranian sovereignty
If “the west” has been supplying moral and or material support to the protesters it will have been to ensure that China doesn’t come out of the Olympics smelling too nice to amerikan citizens.
The same goes for any involvement of english security services in this insurrection.
We don’t know enough about what is happening to give a fuck right now and when we do know enough we should be applying pressure at points where we can exert real pressure ie with the governments of our own societies.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Mar 17 2008 0:14 utc | 43