Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
February 14, 2008
The Dem Rethug Farce

by Debs is dead
lifted from a comment

I don’t understand why people are even debating the Obama Clinton
thing especially on the thin ice of race, since HRC spent a good deal
of effort trying to paint her opponent into a Jessie Jackson type
candidate for african americans only. The stereotyping was led by Cigar
Bill of course and the only thing it appeared to achieve was to swing
away black voters disenchanted by the spectacle of the "first black
prez" showing his true colors. The bullshit flowed from both sides
which is to be expected.

We know this, just as any thinker knows that a person capable of
winning the nomination from either party, dem or rethug is a guaranteed
enemy of ordinary humans inside and outside amerika who is going to
continue the policies of amerikan imperialism plugged-in, that GWB
introduced.

There is only one tiny chink of light showing anywhere in this. It
seems likely that as Susan articulated so well earlier, the Clinton
dynasty has screwed the pooch badly.
The dynasty is going to have to fight dirty (well dirtier), to secure
their ‘rightful gig’. Even the dynasty’s number one supporter, the NYT conceeds that here:

With every delegate precious, Mrs. Clinton’s advisers
also made it clear that they were prepared to take a number of
potentially incendiary steps to build up Mrs. Clinton’s count. Top
among these, her aides said, is pressing for Democrats to seat the
disputed delegations from Florida and Michigan, who held their
primaries in January in defiance of Democratic Party rules.

Of course the ClintonPlc syndicate will be up to much sleazier
stunts than that little piece of duplicity. The Clintons are so
determined to secure ‘their’ place in the White House that are blind
the fact that most of Obama’s support comes from people who probably
won’t just sigh and mutter "politics as usual" before pulling the
handle for Hilary, the way that most of her supporters would if that
happened to their candidate.

ClintonPlc have shown the depth of their ignorance and hubris
admirably so far, particularly in the way they conducted the primary.
They are quite capable of a blatant super delegate buy-off redolent
with pork barrels, blackmail and bribery right at the convention. That
winning in this way could back-fire badly especially in the long term
won’t occur to them. Future-schmuture. Remember Hillary was a dedicated
rethug until Cigar Bill recognised her potential as a number cruncher
and hard-headed win-at-all-costs organizer and persuaded her she could
find even more fame and fortune in the dem party.

If a convention floor shonky happens, it could spell doom for that favourite plaything of the elites, the democrat party.

Best case for ClintonPlc worst case for humanity is that the
Obaminites will go home after swearing off participatory politics for
life.

There are a number of other alternatives not least of which would be
a big chunk of the democrat support base actively fighting against the
outcome and splitting from the party.

Many african-amerikans including many of those who loathe Obama and
his policies would see a super delegate slink off as the ultimate
betrayal after decades of african american support for the party.

An event such as this could provide the momentum for something which
dems have always consoled themselves with as being an impossibility.
Consoling themselves as they cynically encourage corrupt afrikan
american pols ahead of the legions of capable and honest ones, while
they cynically destroy New Orleans as a home for african amerikans of
all income levels, while they allow policies which aid thefts of assets
and cynically remove any hope of african amerikans of owning a home.

That so-called impossibility is a complete breakaway and the
formation of a new party dedicated to aiding the interests of all
unwhite amerikans.

I realise that many readers have been gulled into believing the
mainstream analysis which holds that this would be impossible to
succeed at, but success is not an impossibility. The last straw will
break the camel’s back eventually.

But more than that could happen to the dems. The legions of young
bourgois voters will be turned off too many of them for good and they
may choose to look elsewhere in future.

This is dangerous stuff for the dems because the only really firm
demographic HRC has is amongst older dem voters and of course they are
a dying breed.

Now the death of the dems, isn’t an instant fix, but it would be a
start to turning around the mess that is amerikan politics and
governance.

The rethugs need the dems as much as the dems need the dems.
Remember the farce is kept running by both sides agreeing to
concentrate on the issues where tiny details separate them, and then
blow that up into a major stoush. The emasculation of the pseudo-left
party would mean there was no longer a system to agree on the issues up
for debate.

People may start debating empire, war, or, heaven forfend, the cult
of ownership. Why do property rights transcend all other rights? Maybe
the emphasis could shift a bit. . . ?

There can be no change in Amerika until the dem rethug farce is
deemed irrelevant. Wouldn’t it be ironic if the ultimate political
whores – HRC and Cigar Bill – were the catalysts for that to occur?

Comments

I think BOTH candidates are basically bought and paid for, but, I think the Clintons MAY have enough push with their bosses to see that a few crumbs are thrown to the peons. Call me a dreamer.

Posted by: Anonymous | Feb 14 2008 21:25 utc | 1

Sorry, that was me.

Posted by: Ben | Feb 14 2008 21:26 utc | 2

whoever coined Obamas “Change we can believe in” did a pretty smart job. Its one of the few political slogans thats better than no slogan at all.

Posted by: jony_b_cool | Feb 14 2008 22:38 utc | 3

Loved this and crossposted it!
Really fun – but SO True!!
ThanX!

Posted by: Virginia Simson | Feb 15 2008 1:35 utc | 4

I like Obama, however, anyone who teaches at University of Chicago, a Rockefeller founded university, has to have been groomed as an alternative. And sure as shit, Obama is a member of the CFR.
I do believe Obama will be more sympathetic to the lower classes and may feel obligated to help the African American community. Even elites believe some changes must be made in the current disparity of wealth situation. However, go to Firedoglake and read about the Hamilton Project, Robert Rubins baby, and who was there at its opening. Yes, Barack Obama.
But the DLC/Hamilton Project people are rethug lite and want “market” based solutions. I do think Obama would push to privatize some Social Security. Hes said as much. Wall Street would be real happy.

Posted by: jdp | Feb 15 2008 3:06 utc | 5

FWIW the thing which got me thinking about the long term effects of the Clinton dynasty stitching up the supers at the dem convention was the thread of a discussion Annie linked to here at kos.
If you bother to read enough of the self important turgid ramblings of junior dem arse-lickers, you’ll see the dem fanboys and girls meander backwards and forwards about the ‘process’ and how it applies to the two cliques (Obama and ClintonPlc) while going infra dig as they sledge their opponents’ techniques.
The subject of Clinton control of the super delegates eventually comes up. After a couple of Clinton arse lickers tell the Obama arse lickers that Clinton sites are prolly full of posts worrying that Obama has bought off the supers, the more experienced party hacks come in with the rationalization that will likely be dragged out at convention if the supers do appear to go against the expressed wishes of the primary process.
They tell us that this process isn’t undemocratic, how could it be when virtually all the supers are elected officials?
Since they were elected every decision they make must by definition be democratic. This P.O.V. was supported from several quarters and had the air of dem party doctrine about it.
Of course a claim like that ignores two rather important salient points. Firstly it is unlikely that any of those officials made their choice for prez nominee part of their platform when they were running for election themselves. Secondly given that most voters only really get to participate in these Arthur or Martha, the dem or the rethug, votes when it is a choice between those two it is unlikely that even if a candidate did flag their preference should they ever become a super, that voters would be able to weight it sufficiently to factor it in to their voting decision.
This claim appeared to roll off the party hacks’ tongues so easily, that it may be a commonly accepted fallacy, held in dem offices around amerika.
Think about that for a moment, sell a claim like that to the sheeple (how the pols consider the voters. Not this writer’s view) and this hugely wide take on representative democracy could be the answer for the hacks. It could enable amerika’s next slide down the slippery slope to tyranny.
The doctrine appears to say that once a mob have been voted in, the elected officials need never go back to the voters again, they have a mandate for anything and everything. Vote in the least worst sleazeball for a state legislature and that pol could end up making a mob of national decisions in your name. Vote in a fed senator who promises to fix the roads with fed funding, and you have given him/her full license to pick a trigger-happy war-monger to be your prez. If you don’t like it you can always vote the other bloke for the senate next election. Then you will still get a trigger-happy war-monger as prez but the roads won’t be fixed. Yeah go democracy! No wonder it’s taking so long for those rag heads to get a handle on freedom and democracy. They can’t grasp that you only get the freedom to pick your tyrant.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Feb 15 2008 6:44 utc | 6

Cigar Bill? So this is all about the offense you took at a man having extramarital sex. No?, a president having extramarital sex. No?, a president having extramarital sex in the Oval Office.
You fragile thing you.

Posted by: CMike | Feb 15 2008 7:54 utc | 7

Sorry, b, but this is mandatory for the MoA’s own Wayback Machine,
before the Politburo wakes up tomorrow and make WaPo strike it out.
Read this, then ask yourself what the hell was Bernanke smoking today:
Predatory Lenders’ Partner in Crime
By Eliot Spitzer
Updated: 02/14/2008
Several years ago, state attorneys general and others involved in consumer protection began to notice
a marked increase in a range of predatory lending practices by mortgage lenders. Some were misrepresenting
the terms of loans, making loans without regard to consumers’ ability to repay, making loans with deceptive
“teaser” rates that later ballooned astronomically, packing loans with undisclosed charges and fees, or even
paying illegal kickbacks. These and other practices, we noticed, were having a devastating effect on home
buyers. In addition, the widespread nature of these practices, if left unchecked, threatened our financial
markets. Even though predatory lending was becoming a national problem, the Bush administration looked the
other way and did nothing to protect American homeowners. In fact, the government chose instead to align
itself with the banks that were victimizing consumers.Predatory lending was widely understood to present
a looming national crisis. This threat was so clear that as New York attorney general, I joined with
colleagues in the other 49 states in attempting to fill the void left by the federal government.
Individually, and together, state attorneys general of both parties brought litigation or entered
into settlements with many subprime lenders that were engaged in predatory lending practices.
Several state legislatures, including New York’s, enacted laws aimed at curbing such practices.
What did the Bush administration do in response? Did it reverse course and decide to take action
to halt this burgeoning scourge? As Americans are now painfully aware, with hundreds of thousands
of homeowners facing foreclosure and our markets reeling, the answer is a resounding no.
Not only did the Bush administration do nothing to protect consumers, it embarked on an aggressive
and unprecedented campaign to prevent states from protecting their residents from the very problems
to which the federal government was turning a blind eye.Let me explain: The administration accomplished
this feat through an obscure federal agency called the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency (OCC).
The OCC has been in existence since the Civil War. Its mission is to ensure the fiscal soundness of
national banks. For 140 years, the OCC examined the books of national banks to make sure they were
balanced, an important but uncontroversial function. But a few years ago, for the first time in its
history, the OCC was used as a tool against consumers. In 2003, during the height of the predatory
lending crisis, the OCC invoked a clause from the 1863 National Bank Act to issue formal opinions
preempting all state predatory lending laws, thereby rendering them inoperative. The OCC also
promulgated new rules that prevented states from enforcing any of their own consumer protection
laws against national banks. The federal government’s actions were so egregious and so
unprecedented that all 50 state attorneys general, and all 50 state banking superintendents,
actively fought the new rules.But the unanimous opposition of the 50 states did not deter,
or even slow, the Bush administration in its goal of protecting the banks. In fact, when my
office opened an investigation of possible discrimination in mortgage lending by a number of
banks, the OCC filed a federal lawsuit to stop the investigation.
Throughout our battles with the OCC and the banks, the mantra of the banks and their defenders was that
efforts to curb predatory lending would deny access to credit to the very consumers the states were trying
to protect. But the curbs we sought on predatory and unfair lending would have in no way jeopardized access
to the legitimate credit market for appropriately priced loans. Instead, they would have stopped the
scourge of predatory lending practices that have resulted in countless thousands of consumers losing their
homes and put our economy in a precarious position.When history tells the story of the subprime lending
crisis and recounts its devastating effects on the lives of so many innocent homeowners, the Bush
administration will
not be judged favorably. The tale is still unfolding, but when the dust settles,
it will be judged as a willing accomplice to the lenders who went to any lengths in their quest for
(fraudulent) profits
. So willing, in fact, that it used the power of the federal government in an unprecedented
assault on state legislatures, as well as on state attorneys general and anyone else on the side of
consumers.
The writer is governor of New York.

Posted by: Tip Orillo | Feb 15 2008 8:19 utc | 8

@ CMike yeah right I defined the Clinton by his inhumane treatment of women – he didn’t do it to himself. The image of a selfish prick so full of his own hubris that he treats a woman half his age like a collection of holes to stuff bits of himself including his half-smoked cigar into, sums that bloke Bill Clinton up much better than any of the disingenuous statements that have poured out of his lying mouth like so much diarrhoea. You know – the ones where where he claims to do things for the people who elected him, but is really climbing into the assholes of amerika’s finest elites; eagerly performing tricks in return for cash and favours.
Who gives a fuck about the extra marital sex? If he had bonked half the town it would have been irrelevant – if he had treated the bonkees with the respect any human being deserves. But he chose to treat other humans like shit in his personal relationships too. I can remember plenty of other things about Bill Clinton.
This is the man who starved 500,000 Iraqi children to death just to lay the groundwork for his successor’s more blatant murdering. You know – sacrificing the lives of hundreds of thousands of babies whose faces he will never see, whose cries he will never hear, is a crime orders of magnitude worse than sticking a half used cigar into the vagina of a young person overwhelmed by his presence – but it is possible to see that it comes from exactly the same sociopathic place.
Don’t fucking waste our time with the bullshit spin of the dems circa ’98 We can remember all too well how the slugs played themselves as martyrs to the nasty right wingers when Clinton got caught with his dick in a girl’s mouth. It didn’t cut it then -cause Blind Freddy had seen that Clinton had been going all the way for the same wingers he now claimed were conspiring against him. It most certainly doesn’t cut in now after the dems have shown how they (don’t) use impeachment.
This facile ploy of trying to turn the Clinton’s fuck ups into some sort of ‘resistance’ to amerika’s morally ignorant bible belt comes from the fools and charlatans who treat politics as a football game where the only thing that matters is your team wins – fuck the punters. Of course the problem now is that ClintonPlc couldn’t win a bar raffle unless they bought every ticket or the bribed the woman asked to draw the winning ticket. . .

Posted by: Debs is dead | Feb 15 2008 9:18 utc | 9

@Debs is dead
I would have just let an obvious bait like that #7 slide. There is a 20% who would blindly support Bush if he were killing kittens with a hammer on live television. Similarly, I am convinced there is an equally adamant percentage of folk who would blindly support Clinton if he did the same. The die-hard Clinton apologist conversational derailment of the late 1990’s went thusly (IIRC):
1. Apologist suggests that his/her opponent is a prude and the argument then becomes all about sex. No winning that debate without travelling down territory blazed by Rick Santorum. Nobody wants to go there.
-Opponent may counter by reminding the apologist that the offense was perjury and not adultery, thereby keeping the debate on a legal and objective ground.
2. Apologist throws down the “equivalency fallacy” and reminds his/her opponent that the charge was perjury about sex. Apologist should caustically remind his/her opponents about Bush’s infamous “18 words in the State of the Union” and state that Clinton’s lies didn’t get anyone killed.
-Opponent may point out that many Serbs and Iraqis would like to argue the point of Clinton’s lies not getting anyone killed. At this point, the “equivalency fallacy” gets turned around. There might be bigger things to lie about than an extramarital affair, but is the apologist seriously implying that some lives are worth more than others?
This particular watering hole isn’t one where we need to continue to remind ourselves that the impeachable charge was perjury, not extramarital sex. As far as equivalency goes, I could care less about whether it was about sex or parking tickets or yellowcake. If it makes me “fragile” to demand better from my elected officials than bald-faced perjury, then I plead “fragile”… and de facto American aristocrats (even the nouveau riche Clinton Dynasty) do NOT get my support in any case.
Thomas Jefferson’s dalliances with Sally Hemmings don’t make me think any less of his work. But Jefferson didn’t try to turn the Presidency into an hereditary office or bomb aspirin factories to get his affairs off the front pages.
The troll-fu is weak with this one.

Posted by: Monolycus | Feb 15 2008 15:00 utc | 10

Of course Bush should be supported as he is killing kittens with a hammer on live television, he was elected was he not? Therefore he has the mandate to be the decider and should he decide to kill kittens it would be downright undemocratic and antiamerican not to support it. And in the same way the superdelegates are entitled to do what they please. Why do you hate freedom?
The alternative would be something unthinkable, like that terrorist commune:
Paris Commune – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Council members (who were not “representatives” but delegates, subject in theory to immediate recall by their electors)

Posted by: a swedish kind of death | Feb 15 2008 16:35 utc | 11

@ASKOD yeah the Paris Commune may have been lucky that it’s life was so short. How long before the delegates became representatives? I wonder what the mechanism is by which the delegates to the dem convention can swap hats mid meeting and become representatives.
The process by which people who were once probably quite reasonable, at some point, choose to operate against the principles that initially inspired them and delegates become representatives and then despots has always fascinated me in that sickening way that we can become absorbed by something profoundly anti-social such as a thrill killer. How do humans go that bad? Is it a reaction against what they perceive as being the strictures of office or is it a madness which anyone with access to too much power can succumb to?
These ideas have a certain relevance for me at the moment because I have been thinking about a story from yesterday about this scum who I crossed swords with on uncountable occasions but never realised the true depth of his depravity. To me he was just a typical right winger who had gotten control of an allegedly left wing party.
The worst of it is that the charges he went up on, of molesting poor white kids whose parents had trusted the Federal Minister of blah blah with them, were only the tip of the ice-berg.
Even right at the end mainstream media refused to concede they had backed a truly evil horse. The link goes to an article which uses the classic trick of defending Collins for the first few pars before conceding his guilt in the hope few will read that far.
When I first became involved in indigenous community development people used to talk about Bob Collins in hushed tones. What a wonderful job he’d done in Maningrida setting up and managing a market garden that became commercially successful. That success was traded up as his ticket to the top of Australian politics becoming a minister in the Bob Hawke government of the 80’s. Yet even when he was a field officer working in Aboriginal communities he was sodomising the children. None of that, not a word, came out until some of the whitefella kids of the Canberra years grew up and finally found their voice. The aboriginal kids and their communities had been hanging on to it. There’s a classic story about it here. The cops who have gotten onto the story find one of the aboriginal kids who has grown up and gone on to bigger things. They get him to ring Collins up :

“I rang him up,” says Lewis, re-enacting the conversation. “‘Bob Collins here’. ‘Hello, Mr Bob Collins, this is Tom Lewis here. Remember that job you offered me in Berrimah, where you took me?’
“And he said, ‘Oh Tom, I haven’t got any money at the moment. You want money?’ I said to him, ‘I don’t want your money. I just want you to know that I’m ringing you to tell you that I’ve been very upset about this.’ And he said, ‘Look, I’m too busy now.’ Then he cut his phone out.”

What’s the first thing Collins does? He offers him money, typical whitefella trying to abuse the one power that most whitefellas have over most blackfellas – access to money. Of course being a tight ass he says he hasn’t got any right now. The scum had obviously had this conversation many times before.
The community Collins fucked over is a real shit hole, a total mess ruined by successive interfering whitefellas and because many different clans have been shifted into a spot owned by one clan, the community council is chaotic. It’s in beautiful country right on the coast, but circumstances have made it one of the saddest places I have ever visited. Once month the barge comes to town and pallets of booze are unloaded so the whole town goes mental for 4 days until the grog runs out.
Once I tried to get a house building program going there. One where people built their own house as they would like it to be. We supply the materials and some experts to show people what to do – very simple mud brick construction and they do the rest. Maningrida was a town where the project never really worked now I know at least part of the reason why.
Were the locals waiting for me to rape their sons? Whitefellas knew little or nothing of this, it’s odd there were no rumours the whole time I was in the NT, nearly 20 years, and Collins was the big cheese of the left all that time. But just because the whitefellas didn’t know, it sure doesn’t mean the people of Maningrida didn’t know.
His market garden fell over shortly after he left Maningrida. That was turned around by some to ‘prove’ what a great man Collins was, that a project like that could only work under his tutelage. We know the real reason now. That enterprise must have summoned up horror images for so many of the locals.
Of course the old paternalists would always look for anything to justify their interference, for me the market garden failure was a sign that community development isn’t about imposing what you think is best on a community, it is interacting with the community and helping them access what they believe to be best for them.
The absolute worst thing about what Collins did, no that’s not correct what he did to each child was the worst of all, but his megalomania, pedophilia and abuse of power has managed to doubly fuck the indigenous people of the NT over.
Last year John Howard used the issue of child abuse to destroy the indigenous people’s rights under the Federal Land Rights Act. Now the federal government has total control over the town centres. Prior to that anyone from a policeman to a parson could only enter an NT community if they had a pass issued by that community’s council. It was cumbersome but it protected the people from the teams of carpetbaggers, money-lenders, rip-off insurance salesmen, drug pushers (alcohol, kava, pot, speed) and the like.
The opposition at that time were hard pressed to oppose it because the specter of Collin’s debauch and abuse was hanging over their heads. One wrong move in Parliament and Howard would accuse them all of enabling pedophilia to be like their ‘comrade’ Collins. Now they are the government they won’t repeal the act. Saying ‘sorry’ was easier than actually doing anything.
So now the communities have no protection against the usurers who will come in giving away credit cards etc, which will then force communities to grant mining rights to get their pittance in ‘royalties’ only to give it back to the con-men.
All of this can be traced back to the structure that enabled it. Giving certain people unchecked power over others. Collins went out to Maningrida as a representative of whitefellas, to impose what he believed were whitefella values and lifestyles on the indigenous people. Because he was a representative he wasn’t held to account on detail he was ‘trusted’. Same thing when he came to town. As leader of the Labor Party in the NT he was always sticking his oar in where it was neither wanted nor needed, making sure that no one did anything ‘too radical’. He was answerable to no one on that either. He was a ‘representative’ so he was only held to account every 4 years and then everybody only looked to the issues that were deemed worthy by Collins himself or the media.
Is this some sort of a reaction against this almost total power which has some men using it to hurt the least able to defend themselves? That is as close as I can get to defining it. A perverse expression of their belief that they have total control? Who knows, what we do know is that the best way to prevent these abuses is to ensure that no-one in our society accumulates that much power.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Feb 15 2008 22:05 utc | 12

actually, I suspect that progressives who are involved in the un-acclaimed grind of community grassroots organizing may wonder if its to much to expect something, or anything from an Obama leadership. After-all, thats where Obama himself comes from. And its really tough.
and seriously, thats tangible, or it could be.
besides, FWIW, has there been another prez with such a credential ? If not, I think it is way too pre-mature to conclude its going to be the same-old same-old. That would be too much like saying we’ve seen it all. Fact is, Obama or not, we have’nt seen it all.
but having said that, I would not be surprised one bit if it does turn out to be the same-old same-old.

Posted by: jony_b_cool | Feb 15 2008 23:31 utc | 13

The troll-fu is weak with this one.
thanks M, that was my first real chuckle of the day.

Posted by: DeAnander | Feb 16 2008 2:18 utc | 14

I am thinking that Change we can believe in is a two edged slogan. On the one hand it promises that this time there will be some real change, not just hot air (and after previous Dem presidencies that is a resonant promise). But it has imo a more sinister side.
And that is that it defines out of the realm of “believable” any “changes” that the Obama campaign does not endorse. So for example, say Obama wants to privatise or partially privatise social security rather than ensuring a real public, commensal safety net, the slogan sends the familiar neocon message that what they want to do is the only right, reasonable, sensible, realistic way to go about things. Any changes bigger in scope or more radical in concept than the campaign platform are automatically defined as “changes that we can’t believe in” or in other words unrealistic, pie/sky stuff for dreamers.
I read the slogan as critical of past Demos who have not delivered changes that they promised, but also a not-too-subtle jab at anyone farther left than Obama (and there’s a heckuva lot of room out there!) as a head-in-clouds old Commie who hasn’t got with the neolib programme (which just needs a bit of a tweak here and there ya know, it’s all working fine really, just a few fine tuning issues to be worked out).

Posted by: DeAnander | Feb 16 2008 2:25 utc | 15

Sex, it’s so dirty. Twenty-two year olds, they’re so ditzy. Yeah, it all ties in with the Iraq sanctions regime. Very sophisticated analysis, very 2008 of you commentators.

Posted by: CMike | Feb 16 2008 4:01 utc | 16

Change “we” can believe in => Plus ca change, Plus ca meme chose. To wit –
Both of the Bobsy Twins from the Far Right Lagoon say Torture Away:
14 Feb 2008 The Senate voted Wednesday to ban waterboarding and other harsh interrogation methods tortures that have been used by the Central Intelligence Agency against high-level terrorism suspects. The vote, following House passage of the measure in December, set up a confrontation with President [sic] Bush, who has threatened to veto it. Democratic supporters of the measure hailed its passage and immediately challenged Mr. Bush to veto it, saying that to do so would effectively endorse torture. Democratic presidential candidates Senators Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York and Barack Obama of Illinois, did not vote. link
I don’t know if they were officially in town or not, but you can be DAMN CERTAIN that the vote would have been held at a time they were there, if they wished to vote for it….

Posted by: jj | Feb 16 2008 8:14 utc | 17

CMike,
what is your point? Is it your intent to simply hold in contempt the ideas of people who post here without even reading what they have said or do you wish to participate in the conversation?
all are welcome here who come in good faith.

Posted by: dan of steele | Feb 16 2008 9:01 utc | 18

dan of steele,
My point is that “Cigar Bill” is a gratuitous swipe at Bill Clinton…when “people [could] start debating empire, war, or, heaven forfend, the cult of ownership. Why do property rights transcend all other rights? Maybe the emphasis could shift a bit. . . ?”
All these claims about racial stereotyping by HRC and WJC’s “inhumane treatment of women” in his extramarital affairs is just channeled MSNBC garbage. I stop by here from time to time to get a little insight. This post was a straight shot of Chris Matthews uncensored; General Electric blue.

Posted by: CMike | Feb 16 2008 9:44 utc | 19

I think CMike is right to the extent that Bill’s womanizing was with willing partners, especially pertaining to Ms. “presidential knee-pads”and the greatest insult of his behavior was to Hillary. Even still, women in general stayed with Bill’ side (much to the chagrin of the right) throughout the impeachment trial. On all other accounts Debs is correct that his presidency was on the whole, insufferable.

Posted by: anna missed | Feb 16 2008 10:17 utc | 20

thanks CMike for your reply.
Debs is dead comes across to many US citizens as being spiteful and unfairly critical of the US. He has (as far as I can tell anyway) quite a lot of experience of ugly and unfair treatment of native peoples by “whitefellas”. There is of course ugly and unfair treatment of all kinds of people by all kinds of people and whitefellas certainly do not have exclusive ownership. Still, he has very good insight into how things work and I for one look forward to his posts.
I strongly doubt that he watches Chris Matthews as he lives in New Zeeland so your assumption that he is recycling GE talking points is most likely wrong.
In fact, most of the commenters here do not live in the US and those that do rarely watch corporate teevee.
at any rate, Mr Clinton is not held in high regard by most here, not because of any sexual misdeeds but for his treatment of US labor with NAFTA law and the horrid sanctions of Iraq and weekly bombings of same. His sleeping on the floor while giving his bed to papa bush during their trip to Indonesia after the tsunami gives us a better idea of what he is really all about.
anyway, welcome to MoA and please feel free to start a conversation about property rights. DeAnander has written extensively on “Enclosures” in the past and if you wish to contribute you can email b directly with your post.

Posted by: dan of steele | Feb 16 2008 10:40 utc | 21

dan of steele,
Thanks. When I do come by I usually just lurk. Most of the time the discussions here are conducted at too sophisticated a level for me to add anything useful.

Posted by: CMike | Feb 16 2008 11:45 utc | 22

Most of the time the discussions here are conducted at too sophisticated a level for me to add anything useful.
Oh, bullshit, we are not intellectual elitist’s here, nor dialogue sophisticates. Jump in, the soda is free, you only have to pay for the hard stuff…lol
Granted there are deep thinkers here of both erudite and auto-didactic varieties but they are not snotty nor high brow. My experience is that most here are authentically humane and generally want the best for humanity but spare no illusions of a system that does not have the general public interest at heart.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Feb 16 2008 12:11 utc | 23

dan o’ wrote: “Mr Clinton is not held in high regard by most here, not because of any sexual misdeeds but for his treatment of US labor with NAFTA law and the horrid sanctions of Iraq and weekly bombings of same.”
You forgot the bombing of the Balkan states of Serbia, Kosovo Herzogovina and Croatia along with the cavalier “regime change” justification to go along with all that. And you forgot about how his administration empowered FEMA almost in direct anticipation of a police state. And you forgot the butchery and incineration of the Branch Davidian compound in Waco by the FBI and BATF under his direct orders. But mostly what sticks in my mind is the perjury and the subsequent trivializing of the perjury once it was determined that he couldn’t dance around the DNA evidence (Oopsie!). His playboy reputation most certainly isn’t an issue with me; I gots me no problem with kink.
Anyway, welcome aboard, CMike. Sorry about the roughness earlier, but your post kind of came out of the blue and seemed a little combative. Thanks for clearing up your intended meaning. Don’t worry about things being “too sophisticated”; they haven’t kicked me out of here yet, so you’re probably safe.
By the way, ASKOD, thanks for the link. Interesting reading there. It’s one of the many things I was not aware of.

Posted by: Monolycus | Feb 16 2008 12:25 utc | 24

@Unca
“we are not intellectual elitist’s here, nor dialogue sophisticates.”
The hell you say!

Posted by: Monolycus | Feb 16 2008 12:27 utc | 25

on Bill Clinton, I like and admire him.
But his “Sista Souljah” stunt was craven & disgusting.

Posted by: jony_b_cool | Feb 16 2008 14:48 utc | 26

Jesus Christ Debs is dead, your #12 nearly gave me an aneurysm. Seething with rage, because I know in the cells of my being that that child rape shit goes on with these elite powerful jackals more than most would even contemplate.
Truth be known, I bet these fuckers make stuff films for each other to jack off (masturbate) to as presents and gifts for the holidays. It’s all one big
Conspiracy Of Silence, and elite sado-masochistic orgies. Where they blackmail each other and trade modern day slaves. From France to Portugal From DOD and MOD Contractors DynCorp to the White house. Hell, it got so bad, the U.N. [was] Finally Forced to Probe Its Pedophilia Scandal.
I’d be willing to stake my life on it. This is the keystone in the whole house of cards that holds the power elite together. At the very top. Like something out of Arthur Schnitzler’s “Traumnovelle”, better known as the kubbrick film with cult freak Tom (Scientology) cruise, entitled, ‘Eyes wide shut’. This is the stranglehold these evil fucks have on everyone.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Feb 16 2008 22:55 utc | 27

Clinton aide wants Mich., Fla. delegates
Tiny snip (‘cos there’s a lot to the article and not much to the story):

Harold Ickes, a top adviser to Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton’s campaign who voted for Democratic Party rules that stripped Michigan and Florida of their delegates, now is arguing against the very penalty he helped pass.
In a conference call Saturday, the longtime Democratic Party member contended the DNC should reconsider its tough sanctions on the two states, which held early contests in violation of party rules. He said millions of voters in Michigan and Florida would be otherwise disenfranchised — before acknowledging moments later that he had favored the sanctions.

Heh. Expect a lot of the same kind of hypocrisy from the GOP when a Dem President uses unitary executive prerogatives they, themselves, pioneered when it benefitted them to do so. This is like AG Mukasey saying waterboarding would definitely be torture if it were used on him. There’ll be a lot of this kind of whining in the near future, I’ll warrant.

Posted by: Monolycus | Feb 17 2008 10:53 utc | 28

Note to self…
close your damned HTML tags.
And stop making so many notes to yourself.

Posted by: Monolycus | Feb 17 2008 10:55 utc | 29

This is for CMike, a bit of fun, pull up a chair, though these things count as well: A French comic has warned of the great perils of a Hillary win; it could damage Franco-American relations. If Hillary becomes President, inevitably, Carla (now Sarkozy) the guitar-strumming man-eater will be spending time in the ‘spousal’ activities with Billy C, while Sarko and Hill talk tough on terror. Heh. Billy’s age and looks matter not as allegedly Carla’s list includes Mick Jagger and Donald Trump.video of Roumanoff (french)
While on light news, Ann Coulter has said that if McCain is the candidate, she will vote for Hillary. youtube
Obama is well ahead in the polls, and most importantly, gets higher ‘wins’ over McCain than Hillary. The polls are too ‘conservative’, one can add on several points to any ‘new’ or ‘outsider’ candidate. polling report The party or insider polls will give a much more contrasted picture.
The question: how, and to what degree, is the US president infeodated to, dependent on, the various forces in play? What is his or her real possibility of power, internally? (As foreign policy will not change.) How can it be exploited, used? What changes can actually be made? The US President, has, on paper, tremendous power, but that power seems to be consistently used to further the interests of particular groups, not the US people as a whole. Democracy, privatized! (and see the comic Roumanoff, who shows that private is now public, narrower and narrower interests and relations swamp us all.)

Posted by: Tangerine | Feb 17 2008 15:32 utc | 30

pedophile ring witness arrested for refusal to testify

DUNCAN, B.C. — A former Ontario police officer who uncovered allegations of a pedophile ring in eastern Ontario was arrested at his Duncan, B.C., home Sunday over his refusal to appear before a public inquiry.
RCMP officers gave Perry Dunlop the option of flying back to Ontario on his own to face sentencing on Wednesday in Toronto for contempt of court charges. Mr. Dunlop was found guilty of contempt for refusing to testify at the Ontario public inquiry looking into how authorities dealt with the allegations of a pedophile ring in the Cornwall area.
Mr. Dunlop refused to go on his own to Toronto and was then arrested without incident by three Mounties. Several of Mr. Dunlop’s family members were crying as he was led away by police.
About 100 protesters outside the Dunlop home chanted “We love you Perry,” and “We support you Perry,” as he was placed in a police cruiser.
Until now, Mr. Dunlop has refused to testify saying he’s lost faith in a justice system that may put him in jail .

did his lack of testifying come after the cases against the “15 high-profile men” had fallen apart or was his silence part of why those cases went no where?
Anyway, “the probe’s watershed moment” came last June when an alleged victim, Ron Leroux, recanted on the stand. (“Leroux had told Dunlop that, in the 1950s and early 1960s, he witnessed a clan of pedophiles that would meet on weekends at a cottage and, while clad in robes and using candles, sexually abuse young boys.”) Leroux’s earlier affidavit can be read here.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Feb 18 2008 7:32 utc | 31

old, old story that was big in the 90’s which is being dragged out into a public inquiry (for some reason) long after the legal cases fell apart –

“A total of 114 charges were laid against 15 high-profile men in the 1990s, but the courts only convicted one man who had no connection to the alleged sex ring.”

– from your 1st link

Posted by: jcairo | Feb 18 2008 12:02 utc | 32

You know, it’s strange…in the 1980’s there was the “satanic panic” and idea that kids were being kidnapped into sacrificial cult groups.
Then in the 90’s they came out and said “no no, that was all a hoax”.
Now in 2008, we can see that it’s beyond the scope of imagination just how much of those cases were real, and related to government/corporate related
Satanic kidnapping rings and groups.
Global child kidnapping and abuse is the biggest coverup next to 9/11, and even most activists seem blind to it.

According to the reports from the US Department of Justice 797,500 children (18 and younger) were reported missing in a one year period studied, resulting in an average of 2,185 being reported missing each day. National Center for Missing & Exploited Children This is an shockingly high number, considering those numbers only represent the United States and only the children that are reported missing, not the throwaway kids that exist in every town and city across America. So where are all these children going?

No telling how much of those 800,000 kids end up sold overseas into brothels or killed in elite Satanic ritual and snuff flicks.
Look how many kids go missing in Florida’s CPS system, only to end up dead or sold overseas.
People laugh at the Franklin Coverup and Finders cases as “fringe conspiracy”, yet theres so much evidence backing up these cases to even warrant a new trial.
Is Ritual Child Abuse Just a Hoax?
Finally, not to overload people with information, but because of typepad link limit, and if one wants to do a bit more research on this matter here is a good start, but you’ll have to cut and paste addresses:
(Note the following work is from another board thanks goes to 8bitagent.) Who writes, “i put together a collection of dozens of mainstream news sources that prove that most of the world child kidnapping is orchestrated by the United Nations, Defense corporations, and world governments

UN shipping crates filled with kidnapped children for overseas sex slavery
http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,6682018%255E401,00.html\
http://www.prisonplanet.com/un_ship_carried_child_prostitutes.html
UN involved in massive child sex kidnapping
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/01/03/wsudan03.xml
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6195830.stm
UN involved in large scale Congo child kidnapping operations
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,149334,00.html
NGO Groups in Chad behind organized child sex kidnapping:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1031/p01s03-woaf.html?page=2
Top government officials in Portugal involved in child sex kidnapping abuse
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3355621.stm
Halliburton and Dyncorp try to stop a ban that would outlaw this sick crap
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0512270176dec27, 0, 1632557.story
Same thing with top Chilean officials
http://boston.com/news/world/articles/2004/01/10/sex_scandal_divides_conservative_allies_in_chiles_congress/
Belgium elites and politicians involved in child sex kidnapping and Satanic sacrifices
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/03/03/belgium.trial/index.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/correspondent/1944428.stm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/08/17/wbelg17.xml
Blair UK government officials involved
http://www.counterpunch.org/james01292003.html
Leaders of Dubai United Arab Emirates behind 30,000 children used in slavery:
http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=187580
Saudi elites/government involved in child trafficking
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/this_world/6431957.stm
Evidence of UN involvement in massive global child kidnapping, and attrocities mounting
http://www.jfednepa.org/mark%20silverberg/unsrealmission.htm
“Fla. can’t find 1,000 kids in state custody,” CNN, June 4, 2002 http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/06/03/florida.child.welfare/
“1989 News: Call boys in Bush Sr’s Whitehouse,” jaketom3, December 14, 2006 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5OJPeHCmhA
“1989 #2 News: Call boys in Bush Sr’s Whitehouse,” jaketom3, December 15, 2006 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sU-k-tfiPfs
“Father attacks ‘cover-up over child sex ring,'” Toby Helm, Telegraph (U.K.), Issue 999, February 18, 1998 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/htmlContent.jhtml?html=/archive/1998/02/18/wabu18.html
“Pedophile Israeli diplomat arrested by FBI in Atlanta,” Nathan Guttman, Jerusalem Post, August 31, 2006 http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1154525981602&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
“British government link to ‘snuff’ videos,” Jason Burke, Amelia Gentleman and Philip Willan, Observer (U.K.), October 1, 2000 http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4070446,00.html
White House officials and DC elite involved in child sex slavery and abuse
http://www.thelawparty.org/FranklinCoverup/franklin.htm
Italy rocked by Satanic child sex abuse in schools
http://www.maltastar.com/pages/msfullart.asp?an=11655
“Homosexual Child Prostitution Ring Involving George Bush Sr.: Archive of Published Articles of Yet Another of Massively Suppressed Story Involving the Family Who is Above All Laws–the Bushes” http://www.voxfux.com/features/bush_child_sex_coverup/article_archive.htm
Dyncorp US defense company involved in child sex slavery on an epic scale
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2002/06/26/bosnia/index.html
(edited, added)
CIA involved in child kidnapping in 1980’s America
http://www.whale.to/b/mcgowan2.html
http://p216.ezboard.com/frigorousintuitionfrm9.showMessage?topicID=4.topic
http://rigorousintuition.ca/board/viewtopic.php?t=8555&highlight=findersl
http://www.spiritualteachers.org/the_finders.htm
Texas Corrections involved in teen boy rape rooms and torture
http://www.dallasnews.com/investigativereports/tyc/
One of the heads of Homeland Security trying to lure children
http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/04/04/homeland.arrest/index.html
Big pharma companies turn black kids into lab rats:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/this_world/4035345.stm
a bunch of mainstream links posted in great articles at prisonplanet:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/archive_elite_sex_ring.html
http://infowars.net/articles/january2007/030107UN_Sex.htm
From 1997
Last December a UN study on children in war reported that blue berets had been involved in child prostitution in six of the 12 countries which had been studied. In country after country unfortunate enough to attract the UN’s “humanitarian” intervention, “the arrival of peacekeeping troops has been accompanied with a rapid rise in child prostitution,” the document reported. Following the signing of a peace treaty in Mozambique in 1992, for example, “soldiers of the United Nations operation … recruited girls aged 12 to 18 years into prostitution.”
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/UN/peace.html

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Feb 18 2008 12:59 utc | 33

Well, crap, it looks as if typepad blocks you using the link limit thingy even if you put it in cut and paste text and not in html,
so if you interested, I made the stunning
volume of information here:
most of it from mainstream sources that are widely respected by the vast majority.
The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists.” ~J. Edgar Hoover
Anyone’d think it was planned that way…
I’ll have that drink now…

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Feb 18 2008 13:17 utc | 34

uncle 35, thanks for the compilation.

Posted by: annie | Feb 18 2008 15:13 utc | 36

@Uncle – whatreallyhappend.com is certainly NOT what really happened.
(See my comments on the recent cut fiber lines for proof).
Yes there are pedophiles and bad stuff happening. No, it is not a big conspiracy. About 50% of the above links are panic sides, not verifiable news. Calm down.

Posted by: b | Feb 18 2008 20:01 utc | 37

hmmm,
@Uncle, I didn’t realize your #31 was part of a larger arc, until I read up the thread. If I had, I wouldn’t have posted
Yes, I remember the satanic stuff and the hipgnosis. I’m not going there.
FYI – the former officer in question in #31 lead the investigation and wouldn’t let it go once it went nowhere – hence his lack of faith in the system. Cobourg is not a very large place – sneeze while on the highway and you’re past it – and he & his family had to leave the area due to obvious animus as a large number of locals was involved. There’s now an inquiry into how that case was handled and this is where the former officer was refusing to appear.
If I had charges like these levelled against me, as a member of a local council or regular citizen, I would be seeking legal retribution. Oh yes.

Posted by: jcairo | Feb 18 2008 21:24 utc | 38