Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
November 19, 2007
Candidates Incite and Suck

by Debs is Dead
lifted from a comment

What everyone appears to be saying is quite simple to me on the
outside. Paul and Kucinich appear to have one thing going for them that
none of the other candidates do.

They seem to be honest – motivated by principle rather than a simple
lust for power. Right about now people who live in a liberal democracy,
and who normally vote left of centre would rather take a principled
far-rightist than an unprincipled ‘centre leftist’. This shouldn’t be
surprising.

It seems rational. One feels that a principled person will listen to
facts and weigh arguments before deciding. Therefore a well presented
argument for health-care or a rise in minimum wage levels could stand a
chance.

Unfortunately it doesn’t work like that. As we have seen time and
time again pols can only afford principles when they are on the outer.
Their act of being an ethical human in a jungle full of predatory
animals turns as soon as they actually catch the attention of
sufficient voters. For all the talk of that Howard Dean scream, and how
it was a deliberate ploy by the elite to derail a principled dem, it
seems that amerika didn’t really lose much. Dean has hardly covered
himself in glory as chairman of the Democratic National Committee. He
was just another pol using the ploy of being on a higher moral ground
to get attention.

There is little in either Kucinich or Paul’s past to suggest they will behave differently.

The sad fact is that prez’s only have to listen to voters once every
4 years but they have to listen to the lobbyists and power players
every day. An isolated prez can’t do fuck all so they go along with the
money, probably with a quiet promise to themselves not to get in too
deep at the start.

However they soon come to see that doing the wrong thing can be
papered over by throwing money at it and having the mass media tell the
world what a wonderful human being you are. Do the right thing and
you’ve made enemies who are implacable, they never go away and they
never stop chipping away at your standing in the electorate.

NZ is trying again to keep money outta the political process; the
govt has the numbers to push through legislation to prevent anonymous
donations and massive third party campaigns but they are wavering under
sustained and massive pressure from the media and a few rich capitalists.

It may work; people who were outraged at the way that amerika and a
few rich fundamentalist religious nuts tried to buy the last election
are now worried about the infringement of ‘freedom of speech’. It’s
total bullshit but nearly impossible to counter.

So who do we vote for?

It’s problem if you live in a nation with an archaic ‘first past the
post’ system such as amerika has. There is only ever two viable
candidates for any position. ‘viable’ comes to mean ‘supportive of the
status quo’, so anyone looking for the sort of major change to the way
their government works that most MoA users are looking for, will never
find a suitable candidate using the current process.

The ‘least worst’ in many ways is actually the worst of all possible
choices. Next year as the election season heats up MoA’s pages will
become crowded with the same voices who pushed the ‘anyone but Bush’
message in ’04. There is no doubt that even Hillary Obama will do a
couple of things which seem to take the pressure off poor people who
live in amerika. The thing is tho, that when they do, it will be done
in such a way that ties amerika even deeper into exploiting people
overseas and which reinforces amerikans into poverty. All that will
happen is that poverty will be slightly less uncomfortable for
concerned citizens, who aren’t impoverished, to view.

The current amerikan political system is incapable of electing an honest pol.  Everything works against that proposition.

Really nothing can change until the system changes and that won’t
happen as long as people consider Hilary Obama a viable alternative. It
may happen when people get sick of the procession of unabashedly
violent greedheads, morons and liars such as the chimp, winning office.

However just because pols won’t go for the long game, it doesn’t
mean people have to always go for immediate gratification as well.

It would be better to let the rethugs have their Rudy Giuliani. Yes
it would hurt short term, but a really sustained period of rethug
brutish greedy and intolerant rule would radicalise amerika like
nothing else.

Which is why the elites will never let it happen as long as they
think straight. They will install Hilary Obama in jan 09 and there is
little anyone can do about it except choose not to be part of the
circus and keep at playing the long game.

Those who do vote dem in ’08 will end up feeling soiled, betrayed
and stupid for not seeing it coming. Setting aside the loss of
credibility amongst one’s peers that advocating a dem win will cause
when the reality of dem rule bites, the sense of disillusionment from
being part of such a cynical scam is very disempowering for people who
try and live a principled existence. It is this factor more than
anything which makes voting the ‘least worst’ a recipe for self
disgust, and the immobility which goes with that. In the end people
just give up which is not the best way forward.

Keep informing and educating those around you. Show them the pattern
of elite manipulation which spans decades, decades those around you
have lived through but have been persuaded to forget. Eventually the
curves of citizen awareness vs elite arrogance and the complacency that
goes with that, will intersect.

When it does and the numbers of amerikans who understand they have
been used and abused, exceeds the ability of the elites to stomp on
that understanding, that is when the time will come to take meaningful
action.

Until then worrying about whether Kucinich or Paul is the better bet
is a distraction. A frustrating and demoralising distraction that is
best left for those who enjoy being frustrated and demoralised.

Comments

I think you are wrong in your message here, you should be promoting a vote of these guys to confirm your thesis.

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Nov 19 2007 22:27 utc | 1

meanwhile debs – which prick are they going to choose in australia this weekend
australia is a perfect example of the complete bankruptcy of parliamentary politics
what was that old anarchist dictum – “don’t vote – it only encourages the bastards”

Posted by: Anonymous | Nov 19 2007 22:34 utc | 2

that was me, evidently

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 19 2007 22:35 utc | 3

we’ve got our pick this month – the klan in kosovo getting their – thatci – a good example of a maoist gone bad, gone very bad, indeed
we’ve got the oligarchy working overtime in both bolivia & in venezuela
russia – well it’s all sewn up
america – one messianic apocalyptic cult to be replaced by another

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 19 2007 22:40 utc | 4

OK then. damned if we do and damned if we don’t. Vote for Giuliani and let him make the place even more repressive and strip away the last few freedoms. eventually enough people will become fed up that they will rise up and shake off their shackles.
dang it Debs, that can’t work and won’t work. What seems unsaid is that for a change of the magnitude you suggest is necessary, violent overthrow would be called for. In spite of all the weapons lying around in the US and the supposed bravery and independence we profess to have, we will cower and prostrate ourselves in front of overwhelming police force. Any freelance attempts at striking back will be dealt with severely and used to justify ever more restrictive policies. sheesh, there is talk that we will soon have to ask permission to leave the country and you have to dig around to find any outrage at all. Things are already bad enough for millions and millions in our country to easily justify (for them) overt rebellion. The feds moved in a couple of weeks ago and made massive arrests of who they say were gang members. They could have said Islamic terrorists, or communists, child rapists or whatever they wanted, who other than the actual people getting arrested and locked up would know or care?
Please, it is already bad. We will not find a white knight who will ride in and slay the dragon but we can throw stones at the dragon all by ourselves. We should not have to feed the dragon until he gets too big.
But yes, we must keep informing and educating those around us. Many have suspicions there is something rotten but are afraid to say so because it seems so contrary to everything one sees and hears on the teevee or in the papers, so to hear someone else say what they suspect is a relief.
We have laws, many of them are very good laws. If we insist that we are a nation of laws then we have a decent chance of pulling out of this mess.
I hope you will respond to questions. You brought something similar up a short while ago and no one took the bait. well, I’m hooked.

Posted by: dan of steele | Nov 19 2007 23:08 utc | 5

Nice discussion Debs. I think with this paragraph,

The sad fact is that prez’s only have to listen to voters once every 4 years but they have to listen to the lobbyists and power players every day. An isolated prez can’t do fuck all so they go along with the money, probably with a quiet promise to themselves not to get in too deep at the start.

you truly identify the main problem with representative government. For the word “prez” there, you could substitute any representative who is elected for a fixed term by an electorate that is basically disengaged and uninformed between the elections, so that the electorate can easily be bought off or mentally seduced with advertising at the necessary intervals (i.e. right before each scheduled election).
That’s why we need the National Initiative for Democracy.

Posted by: heatkernel | Nov 20 2007 0:19 utc | 6

@cloned poster “I think you are wrong in your message here, you should be promoting a vote of these guys to confirm your thesis.”
I don’t think so. Many previous political cycles in a range of liberal democracies have confirmed my thesis. There is no need to repeat the experiment.I don’t vote for the half empty glass anymore. I will vote for the person who I believe is principled, who can’t get elected in first past the post politics, but who stands a moderately better chance in a proportional representation system, or I don’t vote at all. I believe that Kucinich and Paul don’t fall into that category, they are likely to toss principle to one side as soon as practicable.
R’giap your comment is interesting as I understand it theoretically I could vote in the Australian election – the rules have been amended to allow all citizens to vote not just those who have resided in Oz for 6 of the past 24 months but I have no desire to do so since none of them including the Oz Greens are worth pissing on if they caught fire. Which is interesting because voting is compulsory in Oz. All one can do is spoil the ballot. In theory if a majority of ballots are spoiled in an electorate, the election has to be re run but this has never happened.
A mate rang me from Australia last night. He has been managing the ACTU (Australian Council of Trade Unions) campaign in one of the marginals. I nearly choked when he told me that he was sending me a bunch of photos of him arm in arm with Bob Hawke taken on Saturday night when Hawke turned up to give a fiery speech to rally the troops.
I don’t know which thought was the most outrageous, Hawke back in the arms of Labour after his reprehensible behaviour when the ALP finally acknowledged that he was a wolf in sheep’s clothing, or arm in arm with my friend who had been rather wrathful and vengeful whenever the name of Bob Hawke came up during the 1980’s and 1990’s.
My friend did conceed that what Rudd had to offer the union movement was only slightly better than what Howard had done to emasculate workers rights, but he rationalised that once they got into power the traditional ALP values would resurface. Yeah they sure will, that mob will do and say anything to retain power and that is the nearest the ALP has to a core value.
I suppose if I lived in Australia and had to vote I may consider voting for labor solely because they have given an unequivocal undertaking to pull Australian troops out of Iraq so one could rationalise that the short term saving of lives justified the long term delay in the implementation of a more representative system.
However if one scrutinised ALP promises closely, one would probably find that they plan on taking troops out of Iraq and putting them into Afghanistan which in turn, would free up amerikan troops to replace their departure from Iraq.
I am unsure of what Rudd has undertaken on Iran. He is a former diplomat and he claims to want to have Australia steer it’s own course free of USuk domination.
It may be that USuk are just too busy to pay attention, rather like what happened with Latin America, so maybe he will oppose any attack on Iran, including increased sanctions.
I’m not so sure of that though. Australia is the USuk minerals card in the hole and it is difficult to believe no one is watching to make sure that the already substantial contracts with China don’t increase to the detriment of USuk.
Rupert Murdoch gave Rudd a light flick across the buttocks with a wet towel a few months ago just to let him know who was the boss.
A typically canny Murdoch move the news of Rudd visiting a strip club did him no harm with voters who had been concerned that the prim and proper self proclaimed Xtian wasn’t a ‘true blue Aussie bloke’. However Rudd would have received the message loud and clear. Do as you’re told, otherwise stories about why you were asked to leave will surface, that’s are only the beginning of what could happen.
The third man ‘on tour’ aside from the appalling Warren Snowden who I’m ashamed to admit I have had a beer with on occasion (back when he was still a credible member of the left faction), was NY Post editor and Murdoch employee Col Allan.
Wazza the opportune sure as shit wasn’t going to say anything, neither was Rudd so that just leaves Allen, who got where he is today by following Rupert’s orders to the letter.
So Murdoch appears relaxed about an ALP victory. Once again; now that the ALP are likely to win, the corporate capitalists stepped in and swept aside the party faithful (about 80% dyed in the wool lefties) to install a ‘safe’ candidate.
I tried to discuss this with my friend but in the end we decided to talk about family and visits to NZ rather than politics because he has convinced himself that an ALP government under Rudd is acceptable because it is the least worst option. (Sound familiar?)
In 12 months time he will be chewing the rug in frustration.
Deep down he probably knows this now, but I suppose his loathing for Howard has bent his logic.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Nov 20 2007 0:51 utc | 7

Their act of being an ethical human in a jungle full of predatory animals turns as soon as they actually catch the attention of sufficient voters.
There is little in either Kucinich or Paul’s past to suggest they will behave differently.

please provide me an example of what would suggest to you someone who would behave differently.
kucinich has a long career in politics, can you give me an example of something he has done in the past that would indicate he would ‘turn’.

Posted by: annie | Nov 20 2007 1:17 utc | 8

@ Dan of Steele I will try and answer queries to keep the debate moving right along but I must correct you on one point. At no stage do I advocate voting for Rudy Giuliani, although I do opine that an uninterrupted reign by the greedy abd brutish right would speed up amerika’s political evolution.
I guess you could say it is moral cowardice, but just as I believe supporting Hilary Obama or one of the other faux humanists is soul destroying and karma wrecking it must also apply trebly to voting for Giuliani.
Simply not voting would be an act of disengagement that makes one unworthy of having a voice in the process.
Not voting, or voting for someone who doesn’t have a snowball’s chance but is honest, is a reasonable act as long as it is accompanied by other action.
What sort of action? Well on a tiny scale I’m sure my friend will remember the discussion we had last night, when in a few months time, Rudd has succeeded in disappointing ALP faithful far beyond their already limited expectations.
As I said today and previously if we care about what happens to the human race, and this rock we share with all other terraeans, we must look at this particular phase as an educative one.
At present there is no chance of a happy outcome in just about any political process, just about anywhere in the world, but it won’t always be like that.
It is blindingly fucking obvious that the grow or die capitalism the world is committed to will reach a point where it can’t grow any more. When it withers and dies those people who are known to have spoken out presciently will have more credibility than anyone else. People will listen to those voices which have stayed strong. It probably won’t be any of us, most of us will have been pushing up daisies for a while by then, but it will be younger people who maintained their rage partly due to the fact they discovered they weren’t Robinson Crusoe. That plenty of other people felt as they did.
Being one of the few who kept the lamp burning is far more important than a single vote amongst millions

Posted by: Debs is dead | Nov 20 2007 1:19 utc | 9

@9
Being one of the few who kept the lamp burning is far more important than a single vote amongst millions
to add, by now it should be pretty obvious we are never going to stop fighting for one thing or another on this planet. And its also seems clear that the human gene-pool accords sociopathy equal opportunity, if not the periodical advantage. There may not be an ultimate, conclusive & final Uhuru awaiting us. Still its always a good fight.

Posted by: jony_b_cool | Nov 20 2007 2:20 utc | 10

@Annie would say that Kucinich’s position on abortion betrays the man. In 2000 Kucinich voted in favour of the provocatively mis-named ‘partial birth abortion act. Yet by 2005 his political ambition had led him to back off from his once fervent opposition to abortion and vote against another provocative bill the Child Interstate Abortion Notification Act.
No honest politician who cared about people rather than exploiting issues would ever buy into amerika’s greatest distraction, the continual to-ing and fro-ing on abortion.
This issue has been dead and buried in most ‘liberal democracies’ for 20 years.
Whatever a man may think of abortion personally, no reasonable man would try and interfere in a woman’s right to choose no matter what the media beat up side issue, and especially not for the sake of cranking up the population as a distraction away from other issues.
Yet Kucinich did, repeatedly for nearly 20 years arguing that his catholic principles compelled him to take that stance. Lo and behold when push comes to shove and he want’s a chance at the numero uno gig, Kucinich has an epiphany and decides he ‘supports a woman’s right to choose’. What a coincidence this epiphany just happens to synch in with dem women voters whose votes he needs, badly, in the upcoming primary.
Can anyone be confident about what Kucinich’s attitude to abortion would be if he were Prez?
Can anyone be sure Kucinich holds any opinion? He was fervent in his opposition to abortion – then suddenly he wasn’t. It is this political opportunism that reveals Kucinich to be just another pretender.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Nov 20 2007 3:56 utc | 11

A Giuliani presidency would not likely mean a revolution in the States – we don’t seem to have a revolutionary culture and most/all pols are smart enough to keep the majority of americans comfortable enough to make the sacrifices of a real change unlikely. But a Giuliani presidency would likely be an even greater horror for people in the Middle East and elsewhere. This is what worries me … we won’t suffer, others will … to greater or lesser extents depending on who ends up winning. That said, there is no way I can vote for Hilary Obama … just can’t do it. So what is left … wish I knew the answer to that. For now, I’m focusing on some congressional candidates who have spunk and principles … the rest demoralizes.

Posted by: Siun | Nov 20 2007 4:54 utc | 12

It is this political opportunism that reveals Kucinich to be just another pretender.
no, it does not reveal this. it only reveals he changed his position on abortion. sometimes people change opinions based on other things besides politics. for example, i am certain nancy reagan may have had a different opinion regarding stem cell research had it not been for her husbands disease.
i don’t know what caused kucinich’s change of heart on that particular issue. but i would imagine, 05 being the year he met and married his wife, she may have had some influence on his attitude. or, he could have had a personal experience regarding abortion that year.
sometimes people change. your example, tho a good one does not ‘reveal’ he is a pretender. it is only evidence he made a change of course.
no reasonable man would try and interfere in a woman’s right to choose no matter what the media beat up side issue
i am definitely pro abortion, but there is evidence many people are not ‘reasonable’ when they are pregnant or their mate is pregnant. for many otherwise reasonable people, abortion brings out the freak factor.
if men gave birth instead of women, i can tell you straight up there would be some very pissed off women not having a choice whether their child lived, or died.
i am very aware the gop uses this issue as a deep wedge, but i also have to acknowledge for some, it is very very real. i am not a religious person, so i cannot really fathom how a person growing up in the catholic church might deal w/this issue if it went against their personal beliefs.
while i agree there are an abundance of issues and examples of people pandering to political interests (abortion being one of them) w/accusations of ‘pretender’, i think a little more evidence is required to place kucinich in that category. for me anyway.

Posted by: annie | Nov 20 2007 6:13 utc | 13

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: November 19, 2007
McCAIN GENERIC FOOD LEGISLATION PASSES FULL SENATE
Lower cost generic food plan now part of Medicare Reform bill
WASHINGTON – The U.S. Senate today voted to include an amendment, introduced by Senator John McCain (R-AZ) and Senator Judd Gregg (R-NH),
Chairman of the Senate Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee to make more affordable generic foods available to more people more
quickly, tied to provisions in the Engrossed Senate Medicare bill amendment.
“This amendment is a victory not just for seniors, but for every person in American who has ever eaten expensive imported foods. We have
crafted legislation that eliminates the careful preparation, seasoning and curing tactics some name brand foreign food companies have used
in the past to keep lower cost generic foods off the top shelves and away from consumers who can’t stoop. At the same time, we protect
innovation and preserve the incentive for American food companies to invest in research and development,” said Senator Judd Gregg.
Presidential contender Sen. John McCain on Saturday called for the reimportation of generic foods stuff from overseas and US military
warehouses as a way to bring American food costs under control. The Arizona Republican, speaking to reporters about a mile from the
Canadian border and just across the river from New Hampshire, said high food prices account for too much of the cost of feeding a family.
“Millions of pounds of American generic foods are sitting on shelves overseas, just out of reach of the American consumer. Famous US brand
names like Wonder Bread, Velveeta and Spam are approaching their pull dates, hidden on lower shelves in some French-speaking foreign country.
I call on all Americans to join me in demanding reimportation of unsold generic American food, and for Federal Farm subsidies to compensate
grocers for product placement and 50’s-style homemaker ads, so that Americans can once again enjoy the foods (sic) that made America famous.”
[Photo of Senator McCain speaking: http://i8.tinypic.com/72tg5u1.jpg%5D
Summary of the Gregg-McCain Greater Access to Generic Bio-Industrial Foodstuffs Amendment (GAG-BIFA):
Current US generic food laws were designed to strike a balance between rewarding hand-crafted traditional food companies for their careful
preparation and presentation while ensuring that less expensive generic foods are available to consumers. But in the years since these laws
were enacted, the namebrand foreign food industry has stifled low-cost competition with a host of tactics – including filling sausages with
real meat and natural ingredients, instead of Advanced Meat Recovery slurry paste and artificial flavors and colors, or preparing cheese by
hand from fresh cow’s milk, blocking, wrapping and curing them over months in underground cellars, instead of generic GMO solvent-extract
hydrogenated vegetable oils and artificial colors and flavors hauled directly to local package plants in 18-wheel tank trucks. In so doing,
these so-called “natural” or “organic” tactics allow foreign namebrand companies to keep charging exorbitant prices and terrorize US citizens
by delaying the arrival of lower-cost industrial foodstuff alternatives to the American supermarkets.
These tactics have caused food prices to soar (although inflation remains well in hand at a modest 0.3%) and forced the gap between the cost
of brand name foods and their generic alternatives to skyrocket in the last three years. In 2000, the average cost for a picnic basket of
natural meats, breads and cheeses was $12.80, while the average cost for generic foods was $10.20. By 2005, the last year such data was recorded,
the average cost for a picnic basket of natural meats, breads and cheeses reached $65.29, while the generic foodstuffs increased to only $19.33.
Last summer, the Senate passed legislation sponsored by Schumer and McCain that significantly overhauled the FDA generic food program. For
the individual, that legislation would have meant hundreds of dollars in savings on food costs per year.
The Gregg-McCain proposal would achieve comparable savings to the original Schumer-McCain measure, but uses a different approach to modify
the import laws. In so doing, it addresses a number of the criticisms made against Schumer-McCain. The key elements of the Gregg-McCain
proposal are as follows:
1) One 30 Month Quarantine – The name-brand foreign food company would have to keep imported foodstuffs in quarantine at the dock for at
least a 30 Month stay. The stay would be triggered if a name-brand company chooses to import under it’s own label, instead of through an
American bio-pharmaceutical major. Each batch of imported foreign foodstuffs must make an import appeal to the FDA for infringing on any
good-taste or happy-meal claims or any food market sector already staked out, top shelved and belonging by right to an American major.
Once an imported natural foodstuffs application is filed, the name-brand foreign company has 45 days to challenge the generic American
food company in court. If the name-brand does not challenge the generic industrial food company’s market dominance within 45 days, the
generic manufacturer can seek a declaratory judgement stripping the name-brand food product from American supermarket shelves.
(It usually takes the FDA 18 to 25 months to approve a lot of imported foodstuffs, more than sufficient time for it to rot on the dock.)
2) ReImportation – The Gregg-McCain plan does not specify which natural imports can be listed in the FDA’s Code Orange Alert Book. To
ensure that the name-brand companies do not use frivolous healthy ingredients to keep generic industrial foodstuffs off the market,
the proposal would create a new Federal enforcement mechanism, the SPAM squad (like SWAT law enforcement, dressed in orange jump suits).
Gregg-Schumer would allow generic foodstuffs companies to file counter-claims if a name-brand foreign company sues them for market share
and shelf placement. For example, if a name-brand foreigner files a frivolous lawsuit and sues a generic industrial foodstuff manufacturer
for using normal GOOBER top-shelf monopolizing kickback schemes to assure product exclusivity in supermarkets, the generic US company can
counter-sue the foreign name-brand and argue that their ingredients are too easy to pronounce, and don’t have healthy food preservatives.
3) MediCare Happy Meals Subsidies – Chief among the strategies for ensuring continued dominance of red-blooded American foodstuffs on the
American food shelves, is a rider on the amendment that pays MediCare a premium for reimbursing nursing homes for using only US generic
industrial foodstuffs in their meal programs. Funds for this reimbursement program are hidden in the Bush-McCain Defense ReAppropriation Bill.

Posted by: Tante Aime | Nov 20 2007 6:21 utc | 14

this logic is flawed. If you actually want people to get fed up with the system as a whole you should precisely want to see a Democrat elected that proceeds to ape Bush. If instead there is immiseration under a Republican, then people will be able to believe that if only they can get a Dem over the top in ’12… So, radicals, vote Hillary.
but logic is not the point. I smell messianism here… r’giap, is that what you meant? Sorry folks, no one is coming to make it all right overnight. If things are going to come out all right it is going to be a long slow awakening, one person at a time. A slow drift away from a culture of fear and cut-throatedness. The center needs to drift.
If you think that chaos and pain feeds anything but authoritarianism I think you learned a different history than I did.
We (We being people who think that a world where basic material and human rights are afforded to all is possible) need to be everybody. Setting oneself up as a doomed outsider is counterproductive. I think it serves psychological needs exclusively. It leads to poses that alienate one from the mainstream… maybe because feeling superior to the mainstream is the psychological need. Did this not happen to the 60’s left? Do you not understand how your enemies will respond? They know that most people are mainstream, know it, and resent being scorned more than they resent being patronized. next thing you know it’s morning in America, and you’re a quaint period piece.

Posted by: boxcar mike | Nov 20 2007 6:25 utc | 15

no reasonable man would try and interfere in a woman’s right to choose
from personal experience i can tell you this just ain’t so. reasonable people can turn very unreasonable when it is their own child. sometimes media has NOTHING to do w/it. how many women get abortions w/out telling their mates, til after the fact if at all? why? because they would interfere.

Posted by: annie | Nov 20 2007 6:26 utc | 16

sorry for getting OT.

Posted by: annie | Nov 20 2007 6:29 utc | 17

Just had to get on and say, Tante Aime that was bitingly brilliant.
Now, back to my already in progress, ‘situational depression’, which has kept me from posting as much of late…

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Nov 20 2007 8:13 utc | 18

That’s my point Annie people can become unreasonable when they are personally involved in a decision about a termination. That is exactly why the state has no business interfering when people make that decision.
Kucinich spent 20 years preaching his right to interfere in abortion and I would say that his change of heart was connected to his wife only in as much as she became another change he had to make to get elected prez. Could a middle aged single man get elected prez? Somehow I doubt it.
The bloke managed to keep his seat in congress for 4 or 5 terms – no way you can do that without practising realpolitik and his change of heart on abortion would have been just another piece of tidying up to do in the vain hope he would become electable.
Make no mistake, you may seem him as a great white hope, an outside chance who if life was perfect would win election but Kucinich won’t be seeing it in those terms, he will have been planning his run in 08 for at least a decade, carefully getting his ducks in a row.
He would have originally planned on being the first conservative (in the religious not the economic sense) xtian dem prez. Iraq changed all that, so he changed with it, emphasised the peace part, of his xtian platform and lost the anti-abortion stance.
To me that is low, it really shows how unprincipled he is. After receiving a 95-percent rating from the National Right to Life Committee in 2000. “He absolutely believes in the sanctity of life and that life begins at conception,” Kucinich’s spokeswoman explained last year.
He now says
“I support a woman’s right to freedom of choice,” Kucinich says now. “I do not believe that Roe v. Wade should be overturned.” He vowed last week to an Iowa audience that “as president, I would protect that right [to abortion], and I would also make sure that appointees to the Supreme Court protected that right.”
The low life appears to be pretended he was always in favour of abortion, but he has been misunderstood is all.
All those years of voting to increase the hassles that poor women are put under when they need a termination. How mant states no longer have publicly funded abortion services thanks to Kucinich and Co’s years of chipping away at Roe V Wade and now he says that wasn’t what he was doing?
Here are the abortion bills he voted in the last 10 years;
12/06/2006 Abortion Pain Bill N
05/25/2005 Overseas Military Facilities Abortion Amendment Y
04/27/2005 Child Interstate Abortion Notification Act N
10/02/2003 Prohibit Partial-Birth Abortion bill N
06/04/2003 Prohibit Partial-Birth Abortion bill N
07/20/2000 Abortion Funding Amendment N
07/13/2000 Family Planning Assistance Funding amendment N
06/22/2000 Prison Abortion Funding Amendment N
05/18/2000 Oversea Military Abortions Amendment N
04/05/2000 Partial Birth Abortion Act Y
07/29/1999 Abortion Funding Amendment N
06/30/1999 Child Custody Protection Act Y
06/09/1999 Overseas Military Abortion Amendment N
06/08/1999 Prohibition of Chemically Induced Abortion Amendment Y
10/08/1998 Contraceptive Amendment N
08/06/1998 Abortion Funding Amendment N
07/23/1998 Partial-Birth Abortion bill Y
07/15/1998 Child Custody Protection Act Y
06/24/1998 Chemical Inducement of Abortion Amendment Y
05/20/1998 Abortion Private Funding Restoration Amendment N
10/08/1997 Partial-Birth Abortion bill Y
09/04/1997 International Family Planning amendment Y
03/20/1997 Partial-Birth Abortion bill Y
02/13/1997 Population Planning bill Y
He has had a complete volte face yet he denies it.
I think people could have coped with him saying something like “Yes I did opose abortion because I believe that it is morally wrong, but I also know that amerika needs a prez who doesn’t buy into these partisan issues which distract us all from many other life and death issues, so if elected prez I undertake not to allow my personal beliefs interfere with other citizens beliefs”. Something like that where he owned what he had done honestly, not this way which is deceitful and mean-spirited.
Where is the sense of responsibility for the women whose lives he destroyed when he inflicted his beliefs on people he didn’t know about, just to get the ‘catholic vote’?
FucK I hate abortion. I’m ashamed to admit I have been responsible for too many bucket babies, but I would never try and prevent a woman from doing what they believed they needed to. It’s an awful, awful situation. All us blokes can do is make it plain we will support what decision is made to the best of our abilities. That sounds hollow and feels hollow when you have to do it. It is hard and it hurts, relationships rarely survive abortion.
I’ve even had to take a young girl along to a clinic to have a termination. I had nothing to do with her situation but she needed a friend – I hated doing it and I had to put up with the foulest reactions from the staff there who undoubtedly thought I was the dirty old bugger responsible, but you gotta do what you gotta do. Some low life bloke had got this kid into the situation so the least any other bloke could do is help her get through it.
This creep Kucinich has been using all that misery and angst around each and every termination, around millions of these decisions, to further his political career. When it became obvious that his stance was a hindrance he changed his position like a pair of dirty shorts and went about his business without a word of explanation.
I’m sorry I can’t see him as anything other than a cynical manipulator.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Nov 20 2007 8:46 utc | 19

Kucinich went to the mat way back in 1977:
In 1977, Kucinich was elected Mayor of Cleveland and served in that position until 1979.[8] At 31, he was the youngest mayor of a major city in the United States.[2] Kucinich’s tenure as mayor is often regarded as one of the most tumultuous in Cleveland’s history.[9][10] After Kucinich refused to sell Muny Light, Cleveland’s publicly owned electric utility, the Cleveland mafia put a hit on Kucinich. A hitman from Maryland planned to shoot him in the head during the Columbus Day Parade, but the plot fell apart when Kucinich was hospitalized and missed the event. When the city fell into default shortly thereafter, the mafia leaders called off the contract killer.[11] Kucinich is the only former Mayor of Cleveland without a portrait hanging in Cleveland’s City Hall.[citation needed]
In the book Best and Worst of the Big-City Leaders, 1820–1993, Melvin G. Holli, in consultation with a panel of experts, placed Kucinich among the ten worst big-city mayors of all time for reasons of temperament and performance, while Kucinich’s supporters say that Kucinich kept his campaign promise of refusing to sell Muni Light to CEI and was brave for not giving in to big business. Specifically, it was the Cleveland Trust Company that required all of the city’s debts be paid in full, which forced the city into default, after news of Kucinich’s refusal to sell the city utility. For years these debts were routinely rolled over, pending future payment, until Kucinich’s announcement was made public. In 1998 the council honored him for having the “courage and foresight” to stand up to the banks and saving the city an estimated $195 million between 1985 and 1995.
I don’t see any reason to think he is a weather vane, between being mayor and congressman, he was virtually homeless. His 2008 platform has little to argue with:
* Creating a single-payer system of universal health care that provides full coverage for all Americans by passage of the United States National Health Insurance Act.
* The immediate, phased withdrawal of all U.S. forces from Iraq; replacing them with an international security force.
* Guaranteed quality education for all; including free pre-kindergarten and college for all who want it.
* Immediate withdrawal from the World Trade Organization (WTO) and North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA).
* Repealing the USA PATRIOT Act.
* Fostering a world of international cooperation.
* Abolishing the death penalty.
* Environmental renewal and clean energy.
* Preventing the privatization of social security.
* Providing full social security benefits at age 65.
* Creating a cabinet-level “Department of Peace”
* Ratifying the ABM Treaty and the Kyoto Protocol.
* Introducing reforms to bring about instant-runoff voting.
* Protecting a woman’s right to choose while decreasing the number of abortions performed in the U.S.
* Ending the War on Drugs.
* Legalizing same-sex marriage.
* Creating a balance between workers and corporations.
* Ending the H-1B and L-1 visa Programs
* Restoring rural communities and family farms.
* Strengthening gun control.

Posted by: anna missed | Nov 20 2007 9:28 utc | 20

Paul and Kucinich – whatever Debs may say about them, particularly the ‘least worst’ option, which I more or less agree with – are special and are rightly perceived as such.
For example, on Who would the World Elect (see link) Paul gets 34 000 votes, Kucinich 6 000 plus, and Obama 14 000. All the others, with the exception of Hillary (3 000) get only a tiny handful. Not representative or ‘scientific’, but some kind of barometer. Don’t forget that Obama has a Muslim father, or that is what can be read on the internets (I know nothing about that.)
link
Neither are neocons or neolibs. That is already a heck of a pedigree.
Second, both are innocent in the 9/11 matter. Ppl realise or intuit that. And both are antiwar in their different ways.
Left vs. right divisions appear more and more a scam for the sheeples to bow down to.
The mainstream will, and does, marginalize these candidates, going so far as to manipulate, err, oraganize polls.

Posted by: Tangerine | Nov 20 2007 18:44 utc | 21

the abortion issue is way too charged to use as something to determine whether a candidate would make a good president. who can really be in favor of abortions? even though annie stated she is pro-abortion, I think what she means to say is that she believes a woman should have the choice whether to carry a child to term or not. That really is an awesome responsibility and one that most women take very seriously. Though it is abused by some who use abortion as a form of birth control (it might be better if these women didn’t pass on their genes anyway) the alternative of giving birth to an unwanted and hated child conceived under duress is much worse.
although Bill Clinton is the consummate politician, I have to agree with his stance. He said that abortion should be legal and rare. The rare part is what really needs to be addressed. Men have to realize that whenever they penetrate, they could become fathers and women need to know that whenever they are penetrated they could become mothers. Since there are so many ways to prevent pregnancy, the risks can be made extremely minimal but folks must be aware.
we have all kinds of education that program us to not smoke, to not drink and drive, to exercise and get our shots yet something as important as making another human is suppressed. that too needs to be looked at. being the puritan society that we are, those arguments are tough to bring up. there is a dirtiness about it for a lot of people. I suppose it needs to be “in your face” much like the homosexual movement, playing nice only allows the rightwing wackos to shout over the deliberate, logical arguments anyone could present.
don’t want this to be off topic, I just want to take this away from the reason(s) for disliking my main man, Dennis.

Posted by: dan of steele | Nov 20 2007 19:35 utc | 22

not commenting much these months, but this one is easier because it dovetails with my focus. dId, much as i respect your thoughts, i think you might be wrong on this one. working alongside people who are closely connected with dk and i don’t see them supporting someone who does not recognize a woman’s right to choose. on a national conference call last week (which i was not able to listen to) he proposed a constitutional convention to address the systemic problems rather than just putting on another election bandaid. as annamissed illustrated in #20, i see kucinich as principled. i looked at paul many months ago and came away thinking about ice sculpture and wasn’t sure what would be left at the core after the antiwar shape melted. he also voted to table and refer to committee kucinich’s motion of privilege on impeachment. even if he was countered by a democratic majority in congress, i’m not sure i feel confident enough about where social policies would end up in this country given the congress we have now. i recognize that the perfect candidate does not exist and i think i can live with kucinich’s weaknesses more easily than any of the others. your argument about his position on abortion gives me pause, but i don’t think his position is such an extreme that we have to worry about him appointing judges like alito and roberts.
and lastly, dId, i don’t think the cataclysmic theory works with such a lazy populace. do you recall when some months ago there was quite a stir about the special that abc (i think) broadcast which presented a distorted and biased picture of clinton’s role in and approach to the terraist threat to the u.s. you suggested that abc should run the special (which it did) and we should sit back and wait for the violent reaction from the viewing public. still waiting. we are a nation too comfortable sitting on sofas and writing on blogs to get out and do much about anything. we deserve our fate.

Posted by: conchita | Nov 20 2007 19:46 utc | 23

“Hey, wait a minute, there’s one guy holding up both puppets!” -Bill Hicks

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Nov 20 2007 20:42 utc | 24

Here’s a thought or two. In America, all the talk is about the independent voter, about courting this crucial pool of undecideds. This is the case, supposedly, because the red and blue bases are fairly stable and unlikely to switch sides for any reason.
For the most part the independent voter in America is just as uninformed as their red or blue fellow citizens, but they base their final decision on different factors than the party faithful. They may vote on specific issues, or things like “character” that don’t weigh as heavily on true believers. These undecided voters, the ones who often haven’t made up their minds even the day before the election are truly pathetic creatures.
My point is that vast sums are spent by the candidates to sway these undecideds. Most often it seems that going negative works well with them. They feel the need to vote, but almost always go for the “lesser of two evils”, which only makes sense, as they seem to have no moral or idealogical compass to direct them.
So why not give them one? Rather than run a hopeless third party candidate, why not make one issue the deciding issue of the election and work to throw the wishy-washy vote to the candidate that supports the correct position?

Posted by: Cougarhutch | Nov 20 2007 21:34 utc | 25

“Yes I did opose abortion because I believe that it is morally wrong, but I also know that amerika needs a prez who doesn’t buy into these partisan issues which distract us all from many other life and death issues, so if elected prez I undertake not to allow my personal beliefs interfere with other citizens beliefs”.
I would add – or the facts of the matter at hand.
An alternate Australian party that might adhere to your wish. Whether that happens or not would have to be seen, given the stranglehold corporatism has on the system.
I feel the same way about Canuckistan, this isn’t unique to America. IMHO. Mulroney brought lobbying – AKA institutionalized influence peddling – up here, iirc.

Posted by: Anonymous | Nov 21 2007 0:03 utc | 26

I have pretty much stopped posting, although I read Moon and other blogs regularly to keep up. There is almost nothing left to say except that I agree with your assessment Debs. As Conchita states however (and I agree with her), Americans are if not lazy, unaccustomed and recently to uneducated as a population to fight for their freedom and major change in our failed system. That said, I think that they know and seem to accept that the system is broken.
It is a sad and frustrating time but has its on fascination. I am curious about how bad things will get before there is even mass demonstrations. I am not encouraged however and see the rot at every level of government. On an everyday level as well, Americans seem very comfortable with authoritarian models at work, and play. Winner take all and only the strong survive should be our money, not E pluribus unum.

Posted by: Elie | Nov 21 2007 16:51 utc | 27

There is a widespread unease—shared by 77 percent—that the country has meandered off in the wrong direction.
meandered?

Posted by: annie | Nov 21 2007 17:10 utc | 28

Nice post, indeed.

Posted by: kelley b. | Nov 23 2007 14:45 utc | 29