Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
October 29, 2007
Reprocessing Air in A Vacuum

The propaganda campaign against Iran is reaching a new state. It is marked by the use of obvious outright lies instead of just murky assertions. According to AFP, White House spokeswoman Dana Perino today  said about Iran:

"This is a country that is enriching and reprocessing uranium and the reason that one does that is to lead towards a nuclear weapon"

There are two easy provable lies in these few words:

Reprocessing Uranium:

Nuclear reprocessing separates any usable elements (e.g., uranium and plutonium) from fission products and other materials in spent nuclear reactor fuels.

Iran never had a running Uranium based reactor. It thereby does NOT have any spent nuclear reactor fuels. It thereby can not reprocess Uranium. You can not reprocess air in a vacuum.

The purpose of enriching Uranium is to gain fuel for nuclear reactors to generate electricity.

The following countries are known to operate enrichment facilities, including R&D facilities: Argentina, Brazil, China, France, Germany, India, Iran, Japan, the Netherlands, Pakistan, Russia, the United Kingdom and the United States. Israel and North Korea are also suspected of having enrichment programs. Belgium, Italy and Spain hold an investment interest in the French Eurodif enrichment plant. Countries that had enrichment programs in the past include Australia, Libya and South Africa, but of those only South Africa actually operated an enrichment facility.

If enriching Uranium "is to lead to a nuclear weapon" when will Perinio threaten the bombing of Argentina, Brazil, Germany, Japan, the Netherlands, Belgium, Italy and Spain? They do not have nukes. Why are they enriching Uranium?

Let us see if U.S. journalists are able to or willing to confront these White House lies. But don’t hold your breath. Most of their stories will be the usual "He said, she said" junk. A clear objective statement of one side will be contrasted with a provable outright lie on the other without any effort by the writer to expose the lier.

For a while it looked like the nuclear part of the "bomb Iran" propaganda campaign was put aside because it didn’t really take hold in the polls. Instead the campaign was moved to the false theme of Iran "killing U.S. soldiers in Iraq". Decreasing U.S. casualties have taken the air out of that balloon. We are back at a "mushroom clouds" fear campaign.

Iran is not pursuing a military nuclear program. As IAEA boss El Baradei yesterday said:

[H]ave we seen Iran having the nuclear material that can readily be used into a weapon? No. Have we seen an active weaponization program? No.

There is simply no evidence of such a program but several very public statements by Iran, including an important fatwa of its supreme leader, against any development of nuclear weapons.

The White House retreating again to ‘the nuclear issue’ as a casus belli against Iran could be a sign of panic – a last desperate try. The accusation is too easy to debunk and will not gain much, if any, support at home and none in the international field.

But the White House might have stopped to care about any justification at all. This could be just smoke to launch the attack tomorrow or the day after.

Any bets when the crazies will actually press the button?

Comments

I couldn’t bring myself to make that bet in either way b, but if a few in the mainstream media were as astute/competent reporters/journalists as yourself, I would bet against it.

Posted by: Juannie | Oct 29 2007 18:49 utc | 1

@Juannie – there are many “astute/competent reporters/journalists” in the mainstream media but some of them are also very lazy or are under time pressure and have to write three different stories per day on three different issues. The last is impossible to do in any quality.
The other good reporters write well, but the stuff then goes through various states of editing by superiours who have learned to stick to the party line (otherwise, they wouldn’t be/stay superiors). News, when not publicly financed, is business. Whatever serves the business …
(I’ve personally seen this process quite close – amazing and disgusting)

Posted by: b | Oct 29 2007 19:08 utc | 2

Well, from the depths of my ignorance, I’ll stick my scrawny neck out and say, in November, but after November 5th.
My feeble reasoning is that the generals in Turkey have gone on record that they will wait until after Erdogan has had his little talk with Bush (November 5). I then make the assumption that the attack on Iran will come while the world is going ga-ga over the Turkish campaign against PKK.
The positive is that I’ve never been right about anything like this!

Posted by: Chuck Cliff | Oct 29 2007 20:05 utc | 3

Thanks b! Once again, I’ll not hold my breath while we wait for any challenge to the outright lies told by these criminals in the white house.

Posted by: Ben | Oct 29 2007 21:03 utc | 4

Cheney Cabal knows that Der Decider has a tough row to hoe, double-downing on the Global War of Terror budget to $196B, when Basra is no longer being patrolled and Kirkuk is no longer being patrolled and the Baghdad surge has had significantly reduced casualties, until Sadr has a major provocation to increase them again.
So what’s the DOUBLED 2008 GWOT budget for? Iran? Venezuala? DHS/TSA? Star Wars EU?
The language says, “Iran, Afghanistan and other undisclosed national security interests “. We know Iraq is tapering off, and we know Afghanistan is strictly fire-by-wire from Qatar, no budget spent there. What hasn’t been disclosed to US?
What’s the $196,000,000,000 “emergency funding demand” for?
That’s $1000 cash from every working American’s pocket!
Poof! You could’a had a 42″ flat-screen TV!!!
?Buying 2008 Republican election votes? Sure! Give raises to every welfare conehead working at DoD/DHS, from Cheney’s “other national security interests” Super-Conduit.
?For Wall Street? Sure! All the actors are in place to back-channel funds directly
from Cheney black-ops pilferage to Paulson’s buddies, and market-time CDO buybacks.
Why would they do that with our taxes? Because senior debt holders of the CDOs get paid first, and then they can time their own re-investments on the black op surge.
SubP/AltA magically disappears, market magically goes up, dollar magically restored.
Now it’s the last quarter of the game, and if the Neo-Zi’s can magically appear to “solve” the credit.con and pump the market through 15,000, without anyone in NYC or WADC going to prison, they’ll sweep the US elections. Thousand Year Reich.
But they got to get that dirty war money in Cheney’s Halliban back pocket!
Iran is just George doing his cheerleader schtick to give Cheney a $196B football.
Our job as tax watchers is saturation bomb Congress, to make sure he won’t get it.
Instead of willy-nillying here on MoA, start faxing 24/7 to your Congress persons.
Dear Mr/Mrs Congress person:
I’m mad as hell, and I’m not going to take it anymore! No more global war of terror deficit-and-spend on my watch! Where is my surge dividend? Where is the war audit? Why are 100,000 mercenaries still grifting around in Iraq? Why are embezzlers still receiving IDIQNB contracts? Iran has no nuclear weapons, this is an obvious fraud!
Cut Bush’s $196B war budget demand in half! It has already cost more than Viet Nam!!
Mission Accomplished. Now it’s time to bring our kids home. CUT THE WAR FUNDING!!

Posted by: Apres Deluge | Oct 30 2007 1:09 utc | 5

Yes, the Bush/Cheney administration is feeding the public outright lies, just like before the invasion of Iraq. They know these are lies, just as they knew that Saddam H. was not a threat to the U.S.
B, on an earlier post, linked to Sy Hersh’s speech to Amnesty Int’l at Trinity College in Ireland. Being a fan of George Galloway, I had listened to some of this talk earlier via a link from Spiderednews but after a few minutes, I turned it off. However, after b’s recommendation, I returned and listened to the whole thing. Even after listening to it all, I remained disappointed in what Hersh had to say. This is a direct quote from Sy Hersh talking about Bush: “He [Bush] believes what he says.” Hersh then continues, talking about the reason for attacking Iraq/Iran “{Bush} is really fascinated by democracy…He believes that the solution to Iraq is now Iran.”
This is BullSh#t.
It almost appears as if Hersh is protecting the Bush/Cheney cabal from war crimes. Hersh is quite composed when he speaks of the Bush/Cheney “mistaken beliefs”. How Hersh remains so composed when he speaks of the lies, the torture, and of the million dead is beyond my understanding. And it seems that Hersh is so enamored with his inside contacts that he is on some type of ego trip. No doubt he is being careful not to forsake his stature with his inside contacts. In one sentence he brags how, in the event he is able to find something out about the Bush/Cheney cabal, his job demands that he reveal this information. Yet a few sentences later, Hersh says he can’t reveal a lot of what his sources tell him. Hersh’s attitude is one of entire resignation, that is, Bush/Cheney will do what they want regardless of media.
I came away from this Trinity College speech as Hersh laying the media groundwork for war – or as another commentator implied (was it dan of steel?), this Bush administration might be using Hersh (unknown to Hersh) to their advantage. In any case, reporting stuff
like this can really get Turkey and Iran “riled up” to say the least. That seems exactly what Bush/Cheney desire, and we hear it first from Hersh. My point in all this is not to condemn Hersh, but if Hersh is the best America has to offer, things are worse than I figured.
With all that said, I am left with an even bigger, overall question unanswered, that is, “Why is Bush/Cheney et al waging war on Iraq and Iran? Unlike Hersh, I don’t believe that it is for Bush trying to bring Democracy to the Middle East. And no one at Moon of Alabama has convinced me that all this craziness is because of some sort of “religion is evil” reason. Somehow I just don’t see Cheney’s actions guided by some “religious” principles. Rumsfeld certainly appeared to have little if any religious scruples. If Bush had the slightest amount of Christian religion that he pretends to have, one would assume that he would have some respect for truth and human life. Bush has none. Nor do I think these people are crazy. Nor do I think it is for the oil – after all, Iraq and Iran would be happy to sell the U.S. oil. So why all this war? What am I missing here? Do I need a larger tin foil hat to recognize the New World Order plans from the Bilderberg Group as Alex Jones warns in EndGame? Or is it that Israel is so persuasive, assisted with fistfuls of U.S. dollars from its never-ending aid from the U.S.? But even if one, some, or many, of these possibilities are true, why would anyone desire to pay such a high price along with such a high risk that things could easily spiral “out of control”? And to most of us, it appears things are spiraling “out of control”, yet these guys desire to continue further with this crooked plan by bombing Iran. It makes little sense, and quite frankly, Hersh is of little help.

Posted by: Rick | Oct 30 2007 5:59 utc | 6

Zogby Poll: 52% Support U.S. Military Strike Against Iran

October 29, 2007
A majority of likely voters – 52% – would support a U.S. military strike to prevent Iran from building a nuclear weapon, and 53% believe it is likely that the U.S. will be involved in a military strike against Iran before the next presidential election, a new Zogby America telephone poll shows.
The survey results come at a time of increasing U.S. scrutiny of Iran. According to reports from the Associated Press, earlier this month Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice accused Iran of “lying” about the aim of its nuclear program and Vice President Dick Cheney has raised the prospect of “serious consequences” if the U.S. were to discover Iran was attempting to devolop a nuclear weapon. Last week, the Bush administration also announced new sanctions against Iran.

Appears that television sets all over the nation are working just fine, as intended….the chum is rolling out of the bait can just fine it appears…

Posted by: Anonymous | Oct 30 2007 7:47 utc | 7

Rick, I think its a conglomeration of all the above, and more. A lethal concoction of a military defense industry revolving door to the military itself with a long history (back to Forrestal at least) of extreme hand wringing institutionalized paranoia rationalizing the unquenchable thirst for ever more defense spending that created economic and political dependency. Add in big dose conflation of historic exceptionalism with puritan religious ethos hammered into one party quasi-fascist political hackery capable generating consensus through business oriented news speak (a recent polling of campaign news shows only 15% of all coverage is about the ideas of the candidates, the other 85% personal profiles and horse race garbage), coupled with the drive to ever expand and monopolize markets, and for good measure throw in a liberal amount of institutional hubris generated by rewarding the most cut throat ass holes rising atop the cess pool like sewage scum and you get a kind of shitty group think necessary to march the entire culture in lockstep right into the toilet. I don’t think it has to “make sense”, its just the sum total of inertia from many different points driving the agenda. They’re creating “new realities” that we’re destine to live in, or die in. And frankly, they could give a shit, because they’re immune to the consequences we’ll have to live in.

Posted by: anna missed | Oct 30 2007 8:11 utc | 8

@anna missed – well said

Perino is continuing to muddy the water and the AFP journalists are playing “he said, she said”: US: Iran seeks nuclear weapons

At the White House, spokeswoman Dana Perino said there was no doubt about Iran’s plans because “this is a country that is enriching and reprocessing uranium and the reason that one does that is to lead towards a nuclear weapon.”
Uranium enrichment and reprocessing produces fuel for nuclear reactors, but can also be a key step to creating the core of an atomic bomb. Iran says it wants a civilian energy program, not an atomic arsenal.
Asked whether any country enriching uranium seeks nuclear weapons, US National Security Council spokesman Gordon Johndroe clarified Perino’s remarks.
“I would say that we’re concerned about Iran doing this because they could have the capability to have a nuclear weapon. Each country is different, but obviously Dana was asked and was talking about Iran,” he said.
Iran’s leaders have repeatedly said they will never suspend enrichment, in flagrant defiance of repeated UN Security Council resolutions calling on Tehran to suspend the process.
“We have put on the table for Iran a path for them to get a civil nuclear program. And all they have to do to get there is to suspend its enrichment of reprocessing of uranium and they can come to the table and we can have a further discussion,” said Perino.

“enrichment of reprocessing of uranium” – that is of course complete nonsense.

Posted by: b | Oct 30 2007 12:42 utc | 9

anna missed …rewarding the most cut throat ass holes rising atop the cess pool like sewage scum and you get a kind of shitty group think necessary to march the entire culture in lockstep right into the toilet.
Yeah, I forgot about that for a moment. Seriously, that is probably an important ingredient to this whole mess.

Posted by: Rick | Oct 30 2007 13:00 utc | 10

It is amazing how the French uder Sarkozy are now taking on the Blair poodle roll:
Iran closer to nuclear bomb than IAEA thinks – France

ABU DHABI (Reuters) – France’s defence minister brushed aside on Monday remarks by the head of the U.N. nuclear watchdog that there was no proof Iran was building an atomic bomb, saying France had information to the “contrary”.
The head of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) Mohamed ElBaradei said on Sunday Tehran was still years away from having the ability to produce a nuclear weapon and that the IAEA had no evidence it was building a bomb.
“Our information, which is backed up by other countries, is contrary (to ElBaradei’s comments),” Herve Morin told a news conference in Abu Dhabi when asked about ElBaradei’s remarks.
Morin did not elaborate on the information his country had. Iran rejects accusations it is seeking atom bombs.
“If … ElBaradei is right then there is no reason that Iran stops ElBaradei and the IAEA from carrying out inspections. If (the nuclear programme) is only civil what would be the reason to stop international inspections?”

I am out of words over this.
What “information” do the French have that they don’t dare to show?
Iran has of course not stopped international inspections. Pure lies again and again …

Posted by: b | Oct 30 2007 13:02 utc | 11

Sarkozy is the same kind of little piece of shit that Blair is. Wankers that think they can be players if they align themselves on the US. These kind of people should be constitutionally barred from having any office in the European Union, they are just traitors selling their countries and the continent as a whole to the highest bidder.

Posted by: CluelessJoe | Oct 30 2007 15:11 utc | 12

Not only astute & competent but gracious as well. No wonder I hang out here so much.
I guess I was a little unfair to reporters and journalists and I apologize. I should save my disgust for their superiors and their owner/elites. Still it would be encouraging if we could see a little more of the journalistic excellence exhibited here sneak through into the MSM. :-[

Posted by: Juannie | Oct 30 2007 22:24 utc | 13

cj
that he is – if not worse than his brother in blood

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Oct 31 2007 0:14 utc | 14

If the attack on Iran goes down, it could indeed mean WWIII:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/IJ26Ak06.html

Posted by: Loveandlight | Oct 31 2007 4:31 utc | 15

Whoops, no automatic hyperlink conversion. From Asia Times Online.

Posted by: Loveandlight | Oct 31 2007 4:32 utc | 16

just to get this straight: is there ANY evidence the US gov can show that Iran is behind nuclear weapons?
The only arguments I find:
a) Iran denies having a nuclear weapons program
b) IAEE says they have no evidence proving this statement false
so, on gods sake, on what base is the US gov threatening Iran with an attack, if they are not willing to STOP such a program?
this is so fucking ridiculous. why does no one in the international politics adressing this fundamental question? everybody just seems to know that Iran is developing nuclear weapons.
I’m still struggling to believe all that madness. on national level, this would mean the equivalent of a total breakdown of the judiciary branch.
Is this all real? In a strange way Im kind of “hoping” the USgov has some more arguments to back up their claims. But i think its worse.

Posted by: snafu | Oct 31 2007 14:11 utc | 17

@snafu – is there ANY evidence the US gov can show that Iran is behind nuclear weapons?
No.

This was today’s installment of “Simple Answers to Simple Questions”

Posted by: b | Oct 31 2007 14:40 utc | 18

thanks, b. think i’m now supposed do go away looking for the next wall to run my head against it.

Posted by: snafu | Oct 31 2007 17:12 utc | 19

@snafu – keep your head intact
on your other questions:
this is so fucking ridiculous. why does no one in the international politics adressing this fundamental question?
They do. El Baradei on CNN on Sunday. Russia, China, all countries in the non-aligned movement, even Merkel here is making noise.
everybody just seems to know that Iran is developing nuclear weapons.
In the US media – yes – elsewhere?
I’m still struggling to believe all that madness. on national level, this would mean the equivalent of a total breakdown of the judiciary branch.
Good that we haven’t seen that in the US, isn’t it …
Is this all real?
“Creating reality” Karl Rove said …
In a strange way Im kind of “hoping” the USgov has some more arguments to back up their claims.
It hasn’t.
But i think its worse.
Yep, you are right.

The whole thing is not about nukes but about “regime change”
Gareth Porter: Plan B (for ‘bombs’) after Iran fantasy fails

Vice President Dick Cheney and his neo-conservative allies in the George W Bush administration only began agitating for the use of military force against Iran once they had finally given up the illusion that regime change in Iran would happen without it.
And they did not give up the illusion until late 2005, …

Mann observes that the neo-cons had never given up the idea of using force against Iran, but they had argued that less force would be needed in Iran than had been used in Iraq. By early 2006, however, that assumption was being discarded by prominent neo-conservatives.

Although the ostensible rationale was to pressure Iran to back down on the nuclear issue, in light of the previous views, it appears that they were hoping to use military power against Iran to accomplish their original goal of regime change.

Posted by: b | Oct 31 2007 18:03 utc | 20

In a strange way Im kind of “hoping” the USgov has some more arguments to back up their claims.
It’s deja vu all over again, circa 19/03/2003. They have plenty of arguments, all empty and devoid of supporting facts
…rewarding the most cut throat assholes rising atop the cesspool like sewage scum and you get a kind of shitty group think necessary to march the entire culture in lockstep right into the toilet. – anna missed
“Seriously, that is probably an important ingredient to this whole mess.” – rick
Of course. It is just an extension of patriotism, nationalism, cultural exceptionalism and faith. Anna missed has stated a truth for any nation – Canucks were told last night that a god was with them. Gott mit uns, jedermann?. Quam can nos exsisto malum ut deae es nobis?
The “greater grey mass” have faith those in the upper echelons would not, could not be there if they weren’t intrinsically good and blessed by a god.
Faith has no use for facts and will run screaming from them (literally for those who feel they are very tight with a god) in a bid to preserve the belief system – whether in a god or a dear leader or in their own talents and success. Denzel Washington believes he is a success because he tithes – not due to his talent or luck.
Luck, probabilities. People refuse to accept how great a role that plays in life and so seek to impose some greater meaning or intent to events. Can you influence these events? Sure, one way or another but only to a degree – there are things beyond even AHHHnie’s control. Mr. Washington is a handsome fella, but he likely attributes that to a god with a higher purpose for him, not the fortunate mingling of genetic material.
Consider a video, probably on youtube, of an accident at a 4-way intersection. Traffic is flowing OK and a teenager is slouching towards the lights oblivious to all with his earbuds and MP3s blaring. The lights change as the kid approaches, but a couple of SUV drivers have difficulty grasping this and collide violently. One tumbles wildly towards the kid as he is about to step off the curb and flattens him like pita bread.
Bad luck? Sure, but without the earbuds the kid likely would have been more aware of the environment and been able to avoid his apparent death.
“{Bush} is really fascinated by democracy…He believes that the solution to Iraq is now Iran.”
This is a direct quote from Sy Hersh talking about Bush: “He [Bush] believes what he says.”
It almost appears as if Hersh is protecting the Bush/Cheney cabal from war crimes. Hersh is quite composed when he speaks of the Bush/Cheney “mistaken beliefs”.
This is BullSh#t.
Well, that is belief isn’t it? No facts required. Just faith. If a person really does believe whatever it is being claimed, he/she are absolved of any fraudulent intent or nefarious (often fatal) outcome.
For example, consider the dubious talents of a kid from BC that claims he can heal anything at a distance if sent a colour photo (curiously, no B&W) and only after you have purcha$ed the book and DVD(of cour$e), so that you can “under$tand” his method$ – by manipulating the quantum (of course, never mind the energy required to do so) he can “see” into anyone, anywhere at the molecular level thereby repairing the malady. If he fails, usually the victim is blamed for a lack of understanding (ironically so, unfortunately). Given his claimed abilities, how could he fail at all?
When recently discussing this charlatan with a person of faith, it was asked if this mountebank “really believed” in his ability or if “he knew” it was fraudulent.
The fact these claims, when first uttered, are entirely impossible – according to the “no free lunch principles” (in general acceptance in this establishment, at least for climate change) – is unimportant where faith is concerned, thus absolving this quack of any responsibility for the results of his actions.
Same with the Chimpster, he really believes in what he says and does, despite the fact there weren’t any facts to back him up from the get go, other than that specious, cherry-picked laughable lot (I laughed out loud at Powell’s “facts” presented to the UN) they themselves provided as “proof.”
If religion isn’t evil, what is it? A vengeful, capricious god smiting all the first born males (Iraqis) for the actions of one pharaoh (Saddam) and all the ranidae smashed in the same vein isn’t exactly loving of people or animals is it? Erring on the side of life?
Benign it isn’t, as it has been used to motivate the stupid monkeys to commit violence on each other for tens of thousands of years and all with the same rallying cry – more recently “god wills it” to “gott mit uns” to “god bless america” to …n.
At best a distraction, at worst a major motivating factor behind the endless violence and dominionism of the stupid monkey.

Posted by: jcairo | Nov 1 2007 14:42 utc | 21

there are things beyond even AHHHnie’s control.
like your brain

Posted by: annie | Nov 1 2007 14:48 utc | 22

b, porters article hits the nail on the head.

Mann observes that the neo-cons had never given up the idea of using force against Iran, but they had argued that less force would be needed in Iran than had been used in Iraq.

they had also argued little force would be needed in iraq. this is merely a selling point. this idea an entire region can go down like dominos is pure fantasy.
where do these ideas originate. from desire? a fantasy of transforming a malleable islamland into ‘friendly’ states?

The plan would start with the invasion of Iraq, and then go after Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia and Sudan, according to an account in Clark’s 2003 book, Winning Modern Wars. The memo indicated the plan was to “come back and get Iran in five years”.

start w/an idea, carve out a plan, all systems go. the snag is the reality. contrary to some peoples views, one doesn’t need faith things will all work out. one only needs a figurehead w/this confidence. granted there will be a segment of society willing to follow you based on faith alone, but more likely it is a failure of imagination, imagination our leaders could be so evil. after 9/11 i found the people i knew who believed the ‘official story’ did so out of the incredulousness of conceiving any group of ‘patriots’ would do this to their own country.
even now, w/iran why is it people are willing to believe neocons, proven liars? because the lie is so big as to challenge their imagination. it takes a well controlled media, a coordinated effort.
how much of the plan, the plan to ‘not use force’ was relying on smoke and mirrors alone?
i see a pattern here, starting w/palestine. empty lying words offering empty solutions that are never intended to materialize. all it takes is convincing others they are the cause, the root of evil. when you try pulling back the veil you get attacked for being an enemy of the state. the state of their fantasy.

Posted by: annie | Nov 1 2007 15:39 utc | 23

actually, it isn’t always about you sweet little annie rexia
AHHHHnie – as in Arnie the Governator
get over yourself

Posted by: jcairo | Nov 1 2007 20:16 utc | 24

@jcairo – I have no idea what you are trying to do to annie for whatever reason
why don’t you get over yourself with whatever?
or at least explain for us what this strange behaviour is about or not?

Posted by: b | Nov 1 2007 20:42 utc | 25

Thank you b @25, as I was just sharpening my sword…
Not that annie needs my rescue, of course, as she has swords of her own, and is quite skilled with them, but it’s in my nature to rescue/defend…
Just as I would if someone was rude and talking smack about jcairo, but alas. hir wont see that.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Nov 1 2007 20:56 utc | 26

excuse me, did you see post #22
do you actually think that I would waste my time and energy thinking about ways to annoy that mundane narcissist?
My post had absolutely nothing to do with that creature, did it?
So, other than this group delusion that I have it in for one of your VIPs – posting on a public board, BTW, for any and all to comment, did my post have any relevance to what had been discussed? If not, please point out the faults.
It is quite obvious that this group has become more important to itself than any ideas being discussed

Posted by: Anonymous | Nov 1 2007 20:56 utc | 27

oooops

Posted by: jcairo | Nov 1 2007 20:57 utc | 28

by all means, pile on – the points i made in my original post please – not some imagined slight that is not there

Posted by: jcairo | Nov 1 2007 21:03 utc | 29

Well jcairo – in 21, which was indeed quite a good remark, you also wrote there are things beyond even AHHHnie’s control
Commentator annie wasn’t the only one wondering about those words.
I seriously don’t understand what you were trying to say with that part of your comment. I didn’t get it. Maybe annie (AHHHnie?) didn’t get it either?
I value your comments here just as I value annies. Please let me know what I didn’t get.

Posted by: b | Nov 1 2007 21:36 utc | 30

Wait! We’re not all v.i.p.’s?

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Nov 1 2007 23:07 utc | 31

well, excuuuuuse me for assuming your point about the role of faith, faith in god, gods will etc, had any reference to w/me. on reflection the reference to arnold makes perfect sense (cough, it is so obvious now that you point it out.)
color me clueless
could we pllllease not carry this on for an entire thread or 3? chalk it up to excessive love and admiration for myself.

Posted by: that mundane narcissist | Nov 1 2007 23:54 utc | 32

I had my doubts about posting this, but seeing number 32 nixed them all.
Any discussion of “the role of faith, faith in god, gods will etc,” is automatically about you? Why would you assume that at all if not for narcissism?
AHHHHnie – as in Arnie the Governator, AKA Mr. Kennedy?
A rather large powerful man in both stature and position. A thespian(?) who usually solves everything he faces in his flicks – can’t control everything due to the inherent randomness of things, no one can.
Say AHHHHnie out loud. It in no way sounds like short ‘a’ annie, but does awesome or in “say, ahhhh”. It also has only 1 ‘n’. Oh I get it, another internecine dig that single ‘n’.
Commentator annie wasn’t the only one wondering about those words.
Ya mean Uncle $cam or were there furtive emails passing in the background?
Someone recently mentioned snobbery. This debacle is a good example.
A comment relative to the topic at hand is made that contains an obscure reference and, of course, annie takes it as a personal attack, because everything is naturally about her – even when she neither wrote the headlining post, nor had posted anything in this thread so far.
Does she ask for clarification? Nope straight for ankles (I’d say jugular, but her swords are forged in the playground – “F.O. you little piece of shit” – classic recess “wit” circa grade 4) and this latest feebality (and now the witless non-apology).
I riposte with another obscure, more reverential, reference and explain the reference to Arnold Schwarzenegger. And that should have been that. I wouldn’t expect her nibs to reply.
Did any of all the other wondering commentators ask for clarification before already deciding I had somehow slandered the VIP? Did any wonder why I would even refer to her babeness? Nope. In what context would I even have the remotest motive to drag her into the conversation?
Oh, that’s right. I have it “in” for her. My earlier replies to some of her more exceptional statements were all some form of stalking, not at all about the extraordinary claims being made – claims that require extraordinary proof BTW, just like act now or I___ will nuke us.
Despite “peace” and “pax” having passed between us oh those many moons ago. And out of the blue I slag her? WTF?
Perhaps I have misperceived the dynamic of this virtual establishment:
– the proprietor sometimes makes very astute posts largely aboot politics de la monde
and invites comment from all and sundry; others he leaves it up to the patrons
– these comments are apt to generate their own responses – at times sub-threading
– all patrons are free to comment on all others
– all patrons post knowing their ideas may be called into question
– all post knowing, the stupid monkeys that we are, that we are sometimes emotional creatures and must temper them to be able to discuss anything
Yet somehow I am a “filter” because I found a couple of her nibs past statements to be very questionable. I get snarky because she avoids the issue and she lapses into hysterical, vulgar cussing while continuing the avoidance…
My original assessment of annie – minus the crude reference – stands.
However, she is quite astute politically in her analysis. I quite honestly find myself nodding in agreement with most of her posts (and most here) in that regard. But, as is common with many people, that same intellectual rigor goes flying out the window when discussing some other topics.
Folks that want proof from their political masters – as in not accepting their words on faith – will have far lesser requirements for someone like that magical kid I mentioned in 21 and those wanting such proof are considered closed minded or unpatriotic depending on the context.
An interesting conundrum of us stupid monkeys that is at the core of our current environment.
annie just don’t bother OK? Leave my posts alone, as they seem beyond your comprehension and because they have absolutely nothing to do with you at all (never have – at least until you get huffy and I’m forced to explain myself yet again because you’re emotionally tender) and I’ll leave yours alone, no matter how many blatant incongruities you fill them with – like UFOs – because as you’ve shown in 32, any topic discussed on which you might hold an opinion is all about you.

Posted by: jcairo | Nov 2 2007 0:45 utc | 33

Any discussion of “the role of faith, faith in god, gods will etc,” is automatically about you? Why would you assume that at all if not for narcissism?
close , no cigar. here is what i said
excuuuuuse me for assuming your point about the role of faith, faith in god, gods will etc, had any reference to w/me.
that reference was the partial use of my name. given we had an extensive argument in the past on the subject matter included in your text (faith), i connected the 2.
as they seem beyond your comprehension
i comprehended you loud and clear. don’t flatter yourself.
no matter how many blatant incongruities you fill them with – like UFOs –
you must be making reference to my post today on the thread @ ‘Doubts on Colbert’s Position Towards UFO’s’.
if find it amusing you instruct me to leave your posts alone, pledge to do the same to mine, and in the same sentence insult me, again.
grow up.

Posted by: annie | Nov 2 2007 1:11 utc | 34

Regarding post 21,
If a person really does believe whatever it is being claimed, he/she are absolved of any fraudulent intent or nefarious (often fatal) outcome.
Next time I get a speeding ticket, I’ll will NOT use that excuse in court. Beliefs and ignorance do not decriminalize an action.
I may be misunderstanding your post. I doubt you believe that Bush was merely mistaken in his belief(s) regarding Saddam and the threat to the U.S. I doubt you believe that a significant factor for the Iraq war was Bush’s desire to bring Democracy to Iraq. Of course there are no ‘facts’ to support that Bush’s belief matches his rhetoric, only perceptions as Hersh conveyed what he had perceived. A multitude of others, along with myself, perceived otherwise.
My point is that Hersh does not seem honest with such a claim of Bush’s belief, and more importantly, it doesn’t matter WTF Bush’s or Hersh’s ‘beliefs’ actually are. The preemptive war on Iraq was illegal per the U.N. Charter; there is no need for debate or analysis here about who believed what and by what god, nor was there a need for Sy Hersh to interject his perceptions of Bush’s inner beliefs. But Hersh is not an idiot – Hersh knows better than anyone that Bush knew that Saddam was not a threat to the U.S or to any country of the war coalition. Again, any attempt to lessen Bush’s guilt because of Bush’s ‘belief’(s) is bullsh#t.

Posted by: Rick | Nov 2 2007 5:23 utc | 35

i comprehended you loud and clear.
obviously not
assuming my post had anything at all to do with you, quite obviously, proves otherwise
excuuuuuse me for assuming your point about the role of faith, faith in god, gods will etc, had any reference to w/me.
let’s see what that sentence really says – minus the weak snark – welly, welly, well, it is clear you assumed the post referred to you – which just reinforces my point my little narcissist because the only reason I have to be typing these words now, is because you think all topics revolve around you
oh, and that previous pile-up you started, was aboot psychic ability, not faith
You once asked if I was out to prove what an idiot you are. Nothing of the sort, your words stand well enough on their own.

Posted by: jcairo | Nov 2 2007 12:31 utc | 36

that previous pile-up you started
you’re just aching for a fight aren’t you.
go take your meds.

Posted by: annie | Nov 2 2007 21:45 utc | 37

sorry about that meds comment. really.
i think what is clear is we have a failure to communicate going on, along w/a deep need to be right.
if you read your own long review of this incidence you can see , it is not me who started a ‘pile on’ which actually began as a discussion before it became very snarky .
I could not let that pass sans snark
the post is laden w/insulting remarks.
about the role of faith, faith in god,
that previous pile-up you started, was aboot psychic ability, not faith

actually, if you read the original comments it starts out like this w/b responding to TGV
79 you are mixing up organized religion and its inherent abuse and personal religion/believe – cetrainly those are different animals.

83 Actually, b, no I’m not. There is no such thing as a purely internal religion.
88 If I had a wish about faith, I’d wish that fewer people believed in a higher power,

if it makes you more comfortable to think of the argument starting after my mention of psychic ability so be it. if you choose to justify or explain this problem by playing who first, so be it. if you want to take this opportunity to frame this issue as solely regarding psychic ability , so be it.
you and i have completely different views regarding what each one was saying. i have no desire to argue my points w/you again.
had it ended there, it would have been one thing, but it didn’t. you chose to invoke my name and insult me again in another thread, and another.
your need to continually bolster your arguments against me, and my ptv by insults to my mental comprehension do not go unnoticed. however, i don’t think they will win you any points.
as anyone can read in the initial portion of the argument, i put up w/an abundance of your snarking and insults before i pushed back.
i get it. you don’t like me. you think i’m stupid. you think people defend me because i am some sort of vip status. you think you are picked on.
you have repeatedly, over and over, invoked my name in insulting snarky ways, in multiple threads. you avoid my meanings (like referencing a conversation on faith) to opt for an opportunity (again) to make me wrong (which in my view, it was a topic on faith) and accuse me of evasiveness (your word) for not addressing your points, which are yours. not mine. nor do they relate to my meaning. (oh, and add another charge or narcissism )
that first day at the end of your long post (149) anna missed said this
But I wonder whether annie in the end would actually endorse the garden variety psychics you (& me) so abhor.
i didn’t come back and answer for a reason, i wanted to end the dialog. i think both you and i and everyone else knows i will never be defending that. the process of degrading someones argument to the point of requiring them to argue the absurd is called a strawman. one can always take leaps and bounds in any direction.
do you really think i am going to give evidence against statements like this? “my little narcissist’
you ask for this. go read you own post. if i am sensitive to you invoking my name, you deserve it. you have never been satisfied to only argue an issue. when you argue, you make it personal.
i may be not as smart as you in certain ways, but i don’t see myself digging a hole for myself like the one you seem to be digging.
You once asked if I was out to prove what an idiot you are. Nothing of the sort
honestly, do you really think anyone can take you seriously when you say things like this.
the only reason I have to be typing these words now, is because you think all topics revolve around you
ok, i got it. in spades. is that all, or can we move on?

Posted by: annie | Nov 2 2007 23:22 utc | 38

You just don’t know when to stop do you?
Sorry Rick, I’d love to respond but it is quite obvious that I have made it my life’s work to antagonize annielingus with my every post. Given her ability to put two and two together and make three, anything I would respond to you with, must be an attack on her, entirely due to the subject matter. It must be true, ’cause annie said so right here:
excuuuuuse me for assuming your point about the role of faith, faith in god, gods will etc, had any reference to w/me.
that reference was the partial use of my name. given we had an extensive argument in the past on the subject matter included in your text (faith), i connected the 2.

Lets see, how many words have a-n-i-e in them? Asinine…
That previous argument was about psychic ability, not faith (whereas the current discussion was about an aspect of faith – which is now an argument about you – see 22 if ya dinna remember lass). You were, back then, blathering on about psychics being in tune and that “there are many of us”.
I called bullshit and provided backing evidence. All you did was yap about yourself and avoid counter-evidence, repeatedly – as did all other patrons (not only anything I provided, but also that of TTGVWYCI).
All the while you were throwing words like faith and belief around, as in “we all have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow” – LOL). This led to snark on my part and fuck off on yours (oooh, sharp that blade).
Oh and after all was said and done, you said peace & I said pax.
(Of course, only AFTER I mention that I was taking meds for something I wouldn’t even wish on you. Funny how the whole tone of the place changed, as if it had anything to do with that discussion or this one.)
Let’s not forget the Greek chorus at the time – I’m hysterical, alcoholic, the idiot that gets his opinions from episodic tv, the pig, can’t stay on topic and now go take my meds (did it hurt you to think of that one, I bet thinking hurts as you seem to do so little of it). And please folks, feel free to refresh my memory with all the other niceties you had to say to me back then, while annie was calmly telling this little piece of shit to fuckoff – somehow this is considered on-topic when spoken by anniemal
Ahh, this must be the warm ambiance of humanity that r-giap mentioned permeates this joint…
What, 2-3 months ago this happened and all has been quiet on the western front since then and in my case, quite happily forgotten – as in let go.
But not annie, oh no.
Well excuse, me oh exalted one, I made a perfectly innocent post on this topic and you attacked me for no good reason other than your delusional persecution complex. Your inadequate attempts to rationalize your irrational behaviour, notwithstanding.
Yet I’m the one aching for a fight (you too feeble minded to realize your error in cracking about my brain being beyond control – however, this could be a result of your self professed baseball sized brain – 145 grams vs 1300 or so, for those lower in the information food chain like me.)
I’m the one that needs to grow up?
Despite having thought nowt about you for ages, while you naturally assume I do nothing but devise ways to annoy you – which is obviously quite easy, given your paranoid nature. I need to mature? You fly off the handle because you can’t let go (or are paranoid, narcissistic and delusional) and I need to mature?
You could have asked for clarification or ignored it all together or riffed off of any of the points I made, but no you lunged for my ankles with one of your dull blades and so received a smack back. This prompted two of your fans to buy into your delusion that I have nothing better to do with my time than to imagine ways to annoy you.
Really, why would I have even been thinking about her at all as I penned this post? Why? Because we argued once? Donnez moi une break.

Posted by: jcairo | Nov 2 2007 23:50 utc | 39

ok, ok, sorrry about saying anything about not being able to control your brain.
clearly this is getting out of my range.
if you say so and all that.

Posted by: annie | Nov 3 2007 0:22 utc | 40

wow – i read LOTS of interesting stuff here, but till now did not realice that there is also kind of a soap-opera dimension…

Posted by: snafu | Nov 3 2007 5:36 utc | 41

the process of degrading someones argument to the point of requiring them to argue the absurd is called a strawman – behold the wisdom of annie (thanks to whomever penned that originally)
what the rest of the world knows is a straw man argument:
“A straw man argument is a logical fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position. To “set up a straw man” or “set up a straw-man argument” is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent.”

You once asked if I was out to prove what an idiot you are. Nothing of the sort
honestly, do you really think anyone can take you seriously when you say things like this.

I actually said – You once asked if I was out to prove what an idiot you are. Nothing of the sort, your words stand well enough on their own.
QED

Posted by: jcairo | Nov 3 2007 12:18 utc | 42