Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
August 15, 2007
Death Penalty

Two issues about the death penalty are in the news.

Somehow Congress gave the Attorney General the right to shorten the process in death penalty cases:

Under the 2006 reauthorization of the Patriot Act, the Attorney General was given the power to decide whether individual states are providing adequate counsel for defendants in death penalty cases, an authority that had been held by federal judges. If a state requests it and the Attorney General agrees, the new rules drafted by the Justice Department would allow prosecutors to "fast track" procedures that shorten the amount of time those on death row have to file a federal appeal after a conviction in a state court.

In effect the main-prosecutor of the U.S., who is an avid fan of the death penalty, will in future decide if a defendant’s lawyer is adequate. That is a perversion of due process.

Bush and Gonzales already worked as a team in Texas to kill as many people on death row as they could. So there is no surprise that they try to away with any possible hindrance.

Texas is also the place for the next news item of a current urgent case:

Foster was convicted for the 1996 murder of Michael LaHood Jr., who was shot following a string of robberies, by a man named Mauriceo Brown. Brown admitted to the shooting and was executed by lethal injection last year. Now Foster faces the same fate. So, if Brown was the shooter, what did the 19-year-old Foster do to get a death sentence? He sat in his car, 80 feet away, unaware that a murder was taking place.

Foster was convicted under Texas’s "law of parties," a twist on a felony murder statute that enables a jury to convict a defendant who was not the primary actor in a crime.

The U.S. is the only country in the "west" that has the death penality on its books at all (though Britain has an exception for cases of treason.) Why?

The death penalty is inhuman. It kills people, some criminals, but also innocent ones. Abolish it. Now.

There is not much hope for Foster, but it might help if you sign these petitions.

Comments

To some criminals, and unfortunately these are some of the same people I grew up with- the death penalty is the ONLY deterrent to serious crime, as jailtime is just a joke. Foster isn’t some innocent victim like Lahood was.
Foster was only on his third robbery of the evening that night, providing the car for his gangbanger buddies as they did armed robberies until they finally killed somebody. He may not deserve the death penalty, that’s up for argument, but I’ve seen this story made out to look like he was a victim of circumstance, and it is simply not true. He was out on a late night crime spree with his friends.
Having been robbed at gunpoint by a gang of thugs in cars, not once, not twice, but three times- I say he gets what he deserves. He may have not been the one who killed that man, after he got his money, but him and the buddies were running backup. Did he go and report the crime after it happened? Nope. He was still out with the same group of guys.
Hoodies, gangbangers, and thugs victimize innocent people all the time. Putting them away for life in prison ISN’T any less of a sentence than simply killing them. It just appears to be nicer. It isn’t.

Posted by: Fade | Aug 15 2007 17:10 utc | 1

@Fade – logic?
the death penalty is the ONLY deterrent to serious crime, as jailtime is just a joke
but
Putting them away for life in prison ISN’T any less of a sentence than simply killing them
So what is it???
Besides that – I totally disagree. Some criminals are always criminals and will never change – lock’em away. Most will change when given a decent chance – and I know a few of those who have changed.
Unfortunatly the US prison system is made for profits, not for corrections. And the poor US gunlaws allow for too many unregistered and unidentifiable weapons around. That stuff can be corrected.
The death of even one innocent can not be corrected.

Posted by: b | Aug 15 2007 17:40 utc | 2

Having been robbed at gunpoint by a gang of thugs in cars, not once, not twice, but three times- I say he gets what he deserves.
do you think he deserves what he gets… if he gets the death penalty?
the death penalty is the ONLY deterrent to serious crime, as jailtime is just a joke
i don’t think a life sentence is a joke.
Putting them away for life in prison ISN’T any less of a sentence than simply killing them.
then it should be considered deterrent enough.

Posted by: annie | Aug 15 2007 17:40 utc | 3

i think a civilized society should have certain standards and killing our enemies should not be one of them. whether it be for revenge, punishment, or deterrent reasons. this is such a no brainer.

Posted by: annie | Aug 15 2007 17:44 utc | 4

that came out wrong.

Posted by: annie | Aug 15 2007 17:46 utc | 5

“What do you think of Western civilization” askd a young reporter to a half-naked Ghandi visiting Imperial London – “that is a good idea” replied Ghandi. And so it is annie.

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 15 2007 20:01 utc | 6

The death sentence is not much of a deterrent against suicide bombers.
The prospect was raised in Israel of then threatening to kill the families of suicide bombers as a deterrent.
Which raises the question: what if the entire family decides to become suicide bombers? What’s left except wiping out whole villages?
And if whole villages become suicide bombers? Time to fire up the ovens, I guess…

Posted by: ralphieboy | Aug 15 2007 20:11 utc | 7

This is a little off topic but is in reply to a previous post by b
The “blameless” Ethiopians speak out in a just released report titled “Human Rights Watch’s Morally Repugnant Report”
MOFA
The report goes on to stay:
Most extraordinarily, nowhere does this report address the issue of terrorism. It only refers to “the insurgency”, even though it notes that al-Shabaab is the key element in this so-called insurgency, and Al-Shabaab has been widely identified as a terrorist organization.
And in what I would call an African dictators “race” card moment the report cries:
Do terrorist operations only become such when they take place outside Africa? This kind of mentality infuses this report and makes it appear more of a geo-political document than a human rights report.
The Ethiopian government continues to target audiences based in the west in the face of the mounting negative publicity they have been hammered with. I wonder why they waste their time.

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 15 2007 20:17 utc | 8

So far as I know no study has shown that the death penalty is in any way a deterrent, the personal feelings of commenters notwithstanding.
But I don’t see how locking a person up for 40 or 50 years in a kennel is any more humane than killing him by lethal injection.

Posted by: Vin Carreo | Aug 15 2007 20:18 utc | 9

@ 8 Maybe this link works –
MOFA

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 15 2007 20:20 utc | 10

But I don’t see how locking a person up for 40 or 50 years in a kennel is any more humane than killing him by lethal injection.
really? i can think of things a human can do when he he is locked up that he can’t do when he is dead.

Posted by: annie | Aug 15 2007 21:14 utc | 11

I am sure that no one who kills, whether in the heat of passion or with cold calculation ponders whether he would do it facing life in prison or capital punishment. he or she is certain they won’t get caught or they simply haven’t considered the consequence of their actions.
for me it all boils down to one simple statement, killing is wrong. When some derelict does someone in for a few bucks to buy a dose of heroin it is exactly the same as when a trained medical technician pumps poison into a condemned man’s veins. both have killed a fellow human.
where weak kneed liberals and he-men conservatives differ is on the mistake part. I and others believe it is better to let a few guilty bastards get away with murder than to kill an innocent. the wingers are comfortable with killing a few innocents every now and then just so long as no guilty one gets away, they will tell you that no one is truly innocent anyway.
what is the main point as far as I am concerned is getting something for the victims. killing someone or locking them up forever does nothing for the victim or his family. why is this so? why not let the victim’s family set the punishment? I understand that in some places in the world you can make a healthy payment and save your neck. nothing can ever replace a loved one but a considerable amount of cash can ease the pain.

Posted by: dan of steele | Aug 15 2007 22:13 utc | 12

The idea that the death penalty functions in any way as a deterrent to crime is absurd. It is not only not borne out by studies, it fails the common sense test. If there were any value to it as a deterrent, one would expect only a handful of executions to serve as examples and then one would expect to see a sharp decrease in those types of crimes. On the contrary, however, states such as Texas not only do not report a decrease in offenses in their uniform crime reports, they merely show an increase in executions.
I would argue that the death penalty has a bolstering effect, rather than a deterring one, towards violent crime. The message it produces is not that the state has a monopoly on the use of violence; but, rather, that there are simply times when it is appropriate to kill other human beings who have committed transgressions. Since homocides are predominantly crimes of passion, this message functions as a greenlight in the unconscious of disempowered perpetrators. The internalization of this message might very well account for the haste with which the US has thrown away so much blood and treasure in unnecessary foreign wars… it’s taught us at a very visceral level that when we feel threatened or offended, “them sumbitches need killin’!”
I disagree with Fade @#1 above that “…the death penalty is the ONLY deterrent to serious crime”, however I do agree with his/her observation that prolonged imprisonment is hardly any more humane. The problem here is the treatment of crime and criminals as if they were merely individual aberrations to our cultural mores and not direct products of them. We are a bloodthirsty, vindictive culture and this is reflected in both public policy and private behaviours. I, too, have been the victim of violent crime just as Fade reports the he or she has been, however I firmly believe that policies of “zero tolerance” and “toughness” will simply produce more violent criminals who carry around an internal conviction that there are always occasions when it is appropriate to kill others.

Posted by: Monolycus | Aug 15 2007 23:50 utc | 13

We could make our prisons places to be dreaded. Instead, we make them to be jungles were prisoners can socialize and form gangs.
How about solitary confinement for years? Simply very limited human contact allowed. Good food, exercise, soft bed, access to books (no television) and writing materials. Just no socialization, except with your legal counsel and the prison shrink.
Would this work?

Posted by: SoftInTheHead | Aug 16 2007 0:27 utc | 14

We could make our prisons places to be dreaded
Apparently, you’ve never served time in prison. Oh, well. Always a pleasure and privilege to read Monolycus. Bernhard is simply heroic, making MoA a worthy successor to you know who.
On death penalty, I have to say that the whole legal system could use a tune up from first principles. Wanted dead or alive pertained to outlaws in the Old West. Sometimes history randomly walks in a spiral. I’d decriminalize most mala prohibitum, get tough on violent characters, and encourage honest citizens to defend themselves.
W.

Posted by: Wolf DeVoon | Aug 16 2007 0:39 utc | 15

The death penalty just insures that crime victims will be murdered.
Crime victims, and any witnesses who step forward. Crime victims,
and any witnesses, their entire families, and anyone crossing an
intersection in the face of the resulting high-speed police chase.
By all means loan mortgages at usurous and pre-calc’d unpayable ARM’s,
nothing like evictions to decrease the crime rate! And by all means
make M’s of undocumented immigrants social outcasts, there’s a way to
decrease crime! Be sure to show your young children insightful videos
of popular TV actors dressed as pimps and hookers all talking shit.
Don’t forget to psy-pharma up the street with oxycondin and dexadrine!
Oh, and cage-match every other channel, in between high stakes poker!
Mix well, and season with a cosmic sea of booze available to all 24×7.

Posted by: Mark Plimpton | Aug 16 2007 1:10 utc | 16

Hoodies, gangbangers, and thugs victimize innocent people all the time.
as many people as Bush, Blair, Rove, Cheney, Condi and their friends have killed in Iraq?

Posted by: DeAnander | Aug 16 2007 1:20 utc | 17

my point being that gangbangers come in all costumes and income levels, and drivebys and smash-n-grabs come in all sizes.

Posted by: DeAnander | Aug 16 2007 1:21 utc | 18

As far as the alleged logical flaw in Fade: deterrence is something that occurs due to the perceptions of the deterred, not the moral calculus of anyone else. In that light there is no logical problem with a third party or the victim asserting moral equivalence between two things, one of which might be a more potent deterrent. Isn’t the point of designing the criminal justice system to minimize cruelty (immorality by the system) while achieving deterrence/rehabilitation, at a certain financial cost? If deterrence and immorality were equivalent there would be no decision to make in that sphere. To be clear, I am against the death penalty and don’t know or care whether it is a deterrent because it is off the charts immorality-wise to me.
What b said about profits is right, rather than cost being something to be avoided, it is required for profit, and so the system is designed under perverse logic.

Posted by: boxcar mike | Aug 16 2007 2:54 utc | 19

I must weigh in on this issue. Killing is wrong. State sponsored killing is doubly wrong. A killing from passion is wrong.
However, we have always been a race of killers. Seguei(shit! segway?)to government sponsored killing in cold dispassionate blood. For an organ of the state to kill in order to deter individual killing is ludicrous.
There have been numerous studies (sorry,no time to link} for years that have shown that the death penalty is not a deterrant.
So why is it still used?
I suspect that if a state by state and case by case study were done ,it would simply illustate that some would be politico was racing to get out in front of the parade. Tough on CRIME, baby.
On a further note , and a much more personal level, as to the values of “simple” incarceration…
When I was 18 years old, I held up a bar
in Ohio with an unloaded gun. I held one hand cupped under the butt of the gun so as not to show that there wasn’t a clip in the breech.
I was incapable of shooting anyone.
However, the old man behind the bar had a sawed off shotgun, and it was loaded.
I am sure that some of the patrons had weapons as well, most likely loaded.
Even though my gun was empty,theirs were
loaded, and by my actions , people could have been killed.
I robbed that bar on pure bluff,and turned myself in one month later.
Which brings us to the subject of incarceration.
Some of you folks have seen the movie
\”Shawshank Redemption” no doubt.
In the movie, it takes place in New England, S.King’s favorite stomping grounds. In reality, it was filmed at a closed down correctional institute in Ohio by the name of Mansfield Reformatory.
Did it look like a “reformatory”?
It was a maximum security prison.
It was ugly,brutal, and what you saw in the movie was true,as far as everyday life inside.
Can you imagine me watching the movie all these many years later,and going”oh no, wait a minute?”
my point is that my being there was a MAJOR wake up call, and I never wanted to be there again. Prisons should not be comfy. Prisons function as a deterrant to those wake up, and as a graduate school for those that view it as an extension of their enviroment.
I am in my 50’s now, and fortunate that I have evolved somewhat. Some might say “Emphasis on “Somewhat”.
Just kidding.\
I am almost to the point of being successful enough as to being able to go to Germany for the next MOA New Year’s Eve. I read the posts and wished for more, although I realized it was for friends, and not the blog.
As always, those of you who know me know that I only post when I am drinking.
“IN VINO VERITAS”
p.s.
Juannie,old son, I hope you are still playing that guitar.

Posted by: possum | Aug 16 2007 3:11 utc | 20

a country has succeessfully done its utmost to reduce its crime rate by vigorously attacking associated causess, both present & historical, while also ensuring that its accused, rich & poor alike, receive competent counsel & representation before the law.
at which point such country earns the right to contemplate the death-penalty, but not before.

Posted by: jony_b_cool | Aug 16 2007 4:05 utc | 21

I’m afraid I have to take, at least conditionally, the minority position here. I’m for the death penalty.
Not the death penalty as it exists right now in the U.S.; let’s face it: the crimes for which many states will snuff out someone’s life are exactly the ones which people commit without thinking about penalties. A deterrent is of limited use when the target doesn’t care about it.
Instead, the U.S. should have a death penalty for crimes which are necessarily premeditated. Embezzlement, for example. Consumer fraud. Political fraud. A murderer may be too drunk to consider that if he shoots the grinning face of his victim he will be punished, but someone in a board room is not. Think those folks over at Enron would have defrauded so many people if they would have been strapped into an electric chair and zapped? Of course not. Would we have had push polls in the last couple of elections if the pollsters would have been subject to lethal injection? No. If the Watergate crew had been wiped out, you’d bet we wouldn’t have to worry about insecure touchscreen voting machines now.

Posted by: The Truth Gets Vicious When You Corner It | Aug 16 2007 4:11 utc | 22

I have a much to say about this topic but not the time. For now check out:
Concord Prison Experiment, aka Leary’s Good Friday experiment
BBL with more…

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Aug 16 2007 4:35 utc | 23

grrrr…Try this

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Aug 16 2007 4:37 utc | 24

Ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny.
The issue of individual rights, and liberties, and responsibilities, is but a microcosm of those same rights within the larger nation system, which itself is a similar microcosm of the larger world system.
In a world where capitalism always suffers from an excess of “human product,” and a dearth of new profit-making avenues to mop up “excess liquidity,” killing or imprisoning a percentage of the population solves both problems. Debating this endlessly through the perspective of looking at it from the wrong end of the telescope sells a lot of papers, and deflects real thought, examination, and reflection. It keeps the masses entertained and occupied, and teaches them to make decisions based upon knee-jerk emotional reactions. Of course, that way they are guaranteed to be easily led.
The entire world is awash with violence against others, and equally awash with competitive training brainwashing to foster an us (maybe that should be U.S.) vs. them worldview. When it is state sanctioned rape, pillage, and murder, in the name of “security,” or some other such Orwellian rationalization, well, that is OK.
But when an individual chooses to stray from the herd of brain-washed 24/7 hate, well, that is simply not acceptable. Do the names Mumia, Peltier, and the recently executed Stanley “Tookie” Williams mean anything?
Simply put, what is the scientifically established “error rate” for our species? What proven percentage are defective and best destroyed? Who here can claim to be conversant in the scientific literature on this topic?
Or if there isn’t a scientifically established “error rate,” but the rate varies from society to society, then we must ask our selves the hard questions of what is wrong with our society that we have one of the highest “error rates” in the world. In other words, perhaps it is the society which is causing all of the “errors,” rather than the “errors” which are damaging society.
According to the International Centre for Prison Studies at King’s College London, the U.S. currently has the largest documented prison population in the world, both in absolute and proportional terms. We’ve got roughly 2.03 million people behind bars, or 701 per 100,000 population. (Of course, this figure only includes official, and not “secret” prisons.) China has the second-largest number of prisoners (1.51 million, for a rate of 117 per 100,000), and Russia has the second-highest rate (606 per 100,000, for a total of 865,000).
Are we feeding our population the wrong food that we have such a high “error rate?” Or is it, perhaps, the years of nuclear mining and testing in the West, combined with CIA experiments on an unwitting population, that is causing this growing national problem? Or maybe it is, as Paul Simon once sang, “When I think back to all the crap I learned in High School, it’s a wonder I can think at all.” Years of learning that Columbus “discovered” America, that the Indians were savages, and that we had to drop the bombs on Japan in order to “save lives,” can cause a few “errors,” especially when upon graduating from wasting the best, and most irreplaceable twelve childhood years of our lives, we discover that we are qualified for nothing more than mind-deadening rote minimum wage jobs, which our “information” society seems to create like a cancer these days. Perhaps the fact that we are the most highly medicated society in history, deadened, then bred and fed on a devitalized, industrially grown, omega 6 rich, omega 3 poor, sugar saturated, GMO addled, inflamation producing, mass produced, never-before tested, foodstock, could be causing a few “errors.” And then again, maybe a society that is so highly militarized that it spends more than the rest of the world combined on so-called “defense,” really weapons systems designed to systematically, from great impersonal distances, and without great fanfare, but more like a video game, kill others, can cause a few “errors.” Or it could be that we are a captive population, like a community of lab mice, living trapped in a nightmare world of cognitive dissonance, where we are bombarded by image after image, at an average rate of one every five seconds we are awake, unprecedented in human evolution, all telling us just how great we, and our society are, and yet how it could be just a little bit better, if we were to buy the product touted in the latest image to swim up before our bleary reddened eyes. That could cause a few “errors” too, especially when one lacks the money to buy the latest magic product dangled before our unconscious minds, which promises us this sorely needed relief, happiness, and craved for contentment, even if we know it to be temporary.
Who is to say that, until our nation’s great scientists, funded by government grants and subsidies, study the problem very carefully and inform us what the true cause is, we will ever really know why we here in this greatest of nations upon the face of the world, have such an aberationally high “error rate.”
I personally think it is the spate of licentiously illegal file copying and sharing that is causing this elevated “error rate.” That, and bad music.
But we have been led so far astray, that we don’t anymore see the issue from the proper perspective. Instead, “We The People” demand, ever more hysterically, that we, and our property, are protected from “killers” and “criminals.” (How is this any different from our dialog about the Nazis and collective responsibility?)
There is no sense of stewardship, of shared responsibility, in our world. The so-called “American Dream” is the myth of the individual making it on his own in this world. But what happens when, through illness, bad luck, accident, or any other vagary of life, the individual fails to “make it.” Well, in our society, thieves and killers like Ken Lay and Ariel Sharon dine with the President, while the misfortunate become “errors” to be hidden or disposed with. How can we discuss this great tragedy, Capital Punishment, without, in the same breath addressing the fact that we live under a system, a regime, that demands of its populace , indeed that structurally mandates, 5% excess labor in order for the rich to continually grow richer. Are those bottom 5% — the crippled, the aged, the ill, the slow, the un and under-employed, the losers of society — not every bit as human as the top 5%, who must run to check their datebooks with care to see if they are free before committing to yet another evening of lobster and champagne? Just who is the real thief, who is the real criminal, who is the real murderer? Where does the “error” lie in our society?
The old English rhyme from the eighteenth century, when the last of the great commons were enclosed and put into private hands, points to the real answer:
“They hang the man and flog the woman
Who steals the goose from off the Common;
But let the greater criminal loose
Who steals the Common from the goose”.

Just this very week, we were treated to news that the US now ranks 42nd in the world in life expectancy, with some African Americans having a lower life expectancy than Bangladeshis. And why should our IMF/World Bank/UN Security Council militarily designed, mediated, and rigidly enforced, World System allow outcomes where that slice of Southern Africa composed of the nations of Botswana, Angola, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, and Angola have life expectancies of around 37 years, while the great social democracies of Northern Europe, Sweden, Norway, Iceland, and others have life expectancies of around 80 years, and over 86 for women? What does that say about so-called “Fair Trade,” and who really owns the one true commons, the one which Bucky Fuller used to call “Spaceship Earth?”
In the county where I currently insecurely dwell, New London County, Connecticut, our great Congressbug, Joe Courtney (Democratic War Party), who our Green Party supported as a lesser evil, announced with great fanfare in yesterday’s paper, that he had successfully secured funding for a second nuclear submarine a year to be built here, at a cost of “only” $588 Million a year. (This sub, he told us, of course, is to help with our national “defense.”)
Since we are speaking about what our society should do with “bad” people, it seems self-evident that we, here, are “good” people. So I ask our “good” readership, how many of you understand how the emergency food distribution system in your area works, and if not, then why not? Here, in our county — one of the wealthier counties, in arguably the richest state, in the wealthiest nation in the world — on any given day, fully 11% of the county is what is euphemistically termed “food insecure.” (That is scientific language for hungry and starving.) Over the course of the year, about one in six people — almost 50, 000 — fall into that category at one time or another.
We have 279,000 people in this county, which means that, instead of building a sub which will make large numbers of the world’s population more insecure, we could be providing the poorest third of our county with an annual tax-free stipend of $6K. That would completely cure the problem of food insecurity around here, and even leave enough over for some of those people to have a party or two and invite some friends over. (Of course, they would have to check their datebooks first, before accepting.) I can’t say for sure if that would lower our human “error rate,” but I am sure that our great Universities and Colleges would be able to provide enough scientists and scholars to devote some of their precious time to look into this matter and provide us with an educated and civilized opinion.
In our county, while “official” homelessness is low, below 1%, perhaps the same percentage as those who are food insecure, or even more, can be classified as home insecure: behind on mortgage payments, rent, facing eviction, or living in overcrowded or sub-standard conditions. Additionally, this county has a dearth of life reinforcing jobs, like organic farmer or poet, and an over-whelming surplus of deadly dull, and actually deadly, jobs like changing linens in one of our huge casino hotels, or weapons manufacturer, or weapons user at our huge naval base. Again, I can’t be certain, but these conditions could possibly lead to an increase in our human “error rate.” Could we work to ameliorate this?
Our county spends about $30K/yr. per student. Over twelve years of schooling that works out to $360K, or with compounded interest, perhaps half a million dollars. If we abolished enforced schooling in our county, and made it volunteer and voluntary, instead giving each student $500,000 when they terned eighteen, it is possible that we would end up with a happier, freer, less brainwashed, better educated and motivated, more life-affirming population. We might be creating fewer “errors” too. I can’t be sure but it would be worth studying — though not by government or academic professionals — in the interests of affirming life, and reducing our “error rate,” we would have to abolish those positions too.
The point to this entire disquisition, is the same as the point I made a year or two ago in a post about immigration. By talking about the choice between capital punishment and life imprisonment for “bad” people, we are ceding the framing of the entire debate to entrenched power, which means that things will never change for the better. We must establish the playing field upon which we are to hold discussions and seek solutions.
In this case, the choice is not how to disappear our human “errors.” It should be how to build a just society where there is enough resources, especially human, to care for and nurture our entire society so that we create less “errors.” Can we actually do this? Of course we can! And then, I’m willing to bet, we would have far less people to debate about forcibly removing from our midsts. Though, we can always get some professors to study this.
There is something wrong with our society that we have one of the highest “error rates” in the world. It is the society which is causing all of the “errors,” rather than the “errors” which are damaging society. And we can fix this, not by arguing for life imprisonment over capital punishment as a way to create a more humane society, but by changing the nature of our society. Then we will have the leisure to study whether we have, in the process, created fewer “human errors.” That would be a good thing.

Posted by: Malooga | Aug 16 2007 4:44 utc | 25

possum,
Great story (as usual) and to the point, being in Vietnam did the same for me, as a graduate school so to speak — of how actions have consequences and consequences and consequences.
And your story reminds me of a true life experience that I’ve kept under wraps, of how myself and a few friends saved the life of a mortally wounded bank robber — who had been shot in the neck with a 357 magnum — by his accomplices.

Posted by: anna missed | Aug 16 2007 5:03 utc | 26

Nice one, Possum.
@Monolycus, DeAnander:
The problem here is the treatment of crime and criminals as if they were merely individual aberrations to our cultural mores and not direct products of them. We are a bloodthirsty, vindictive culture and this is reflected in both public policy and private behaviours.
as many people as Bush, Blair, Rove, Cheney, Condi and their friends have killed in Iraq?

That’s what I was trying to say. I guess I need an editor.

Posted by: Malooga | Aug 16 2007 5:14 utc | 27

Death may be a deterrent in societies with a rather low level of violence, where even hardenede criminals have more chances of dying of old age or heart attack than at gunpoint, which also happen to be societies without death penalty.
In the US, this simply can’t be a deterrent when criminals have more chances to be hit by the neighboring gang than to end up on the death row for murder. I mean, when you’re in the jungle or some medieval world, with violence all around, will you mind lethal injection, when you know you risk every week to be shot up by other goons?
At this point in the US history of violence, death penalty as such doesn’t work anymore as a deterrent, only as some nasty punishment. If you want to add a deterrent edge to it, you’d have to make public executions in such torturous inhumane ways that this specific death would actually scare a bit the cold-hearted gangster. In fact, this was the main reason for Vlad Tepes to use impaling on his victims, to scare the shit out of the local trouble-makers and of his enemies inside and abroad – it wasn’t death itself that did the trick in a world where death was common, it was the day-long agony.
Somehow, I still doubt even the USA are ready to go such a dark way.

Posted by: CluelessJoe | Aug 16 2007 7:27 utc | 28

Well said, missed you Malooga.
I’ll skip my drive-by comment on incarceration and the state-sanctioned killing of its citizens.
Possum points out the obvious deterrent of prison to a naive miscreant, I know that it works too.
As for life criminals, maybe we need “error-correction” rather than corrections.
I have a stand-up friend in the non-uniformed corrections services, his job is to keep dangerous repeat offenders, read psychotic criminals, in the jail. Not an easy profession.
He says things like “these guys are dangerous and should be denied parole.” It is his job but he also recounts anonymous details of why they need to stay in jail, based on his experience and the individual case histories. The criminal justice system i.e. cops and robbers, and psychologists, is no tv drama. It encounters the dregs, as a criminal lawyer once told me “I’ve spent my career in the gutter.”
Back on topic, killing is wrong.
As long as we can afford to incarcerate there is always the chance of rehabilitation.
Prison serves three purposes:
1. scare the naive breaker of laws into not doing it again.
2. giving the unfortunate criminal a chance to learn how to live in society, albeit a strict lesson, but with fair jailors, rehabilitation and job training so they can return as productive citizens.
3. keeping the very small population of dangerous persons away from us.
The third is what everyone harps on but most of the prison population falls into group 2, those who commit crime because they have no other option. A generalization of course, but in a sane society this actually works, i.e. work camps, community service sentences etc.
Above discussed briefly the prison-industrial complex in the USA which lobbies for longer sentences to increase its client base, not mention the huge tilt towards locking up certain offenders of victimless crimes such as drug sales and prostitution.
Next time we should talk about Canadian punishment for millionaire pot-growers vs. crack sellers in the Chocolate Cities of the USA.
Back to your regular programming now in progress.

Posted by: jonku | Aug 16 2007 7:41 utc | 29

Oh, and the fourth use of prison, a subset of item 1:
Th local lockup, the “drunk tank.” Somewhere that the cops can put a drunk or otherwise intoxicated person, sometimes violent but mostly suffering from bad judgement, until they sober up.
An alternative is the local psychiatric hospital or emergency ward for those in bad shape.
The idea is that society and its enforcers of order do occasionally need to get some help, otherwise there would be a one-to-one correspondence between cops, ambulance attendants and firemen and the people they are helping. Not cost effective.
The medical model still makes sense — when people act out mostly they need treatment not punishment.

Posted by: jonku | Aug 16 2007 7:52 utc | 30

when people act out mostly they need treatment not punishment.
Couldn’t agree more.

Posted by: Bea | Aug 16 2007 8:38 utc | 31

Thanks Bea.

Posted by: jonku | Aug 16 2007 9:27 utc | 32

Malooga you don’t need an editor (well maybe for a couple of those run-on sentences, but should I talk?) — you need a publisher.
May I cross post this excellent essay as a feature article at FS and/or ET? purty pleeeze?

Posted by: DeAnander | Aug 16 2007 21:00 utc | 33

DeAnander,
Always feel free. Just send me an email to tell me.
Maloogie

Posted by: Malooga | Aug 16 2007 21:29 utc | 34

The local lockup, the “drunk tank.” Somewhere that the cops can put a drunk or otherwise intoxicated person, sometimes violent but mostly suffering from bad judgement, until they sober up.
An alternative is the local psychiatric hospital or emergency ward for those in bad shape.

Just the other day I talked with a fellow who had drunken experience from each one of these three institutions for sobering up. He recommended keeping your mouth shut and looking depressed if copped when to drunk for walking. That was what landed him at local psychiatric hospital. Better beds there then the lock-up or the emergency ward.

Posted by: a swedish kind of death | Aug 17 2007 0:50 utc | 35

ya know, on the the whole I don’t care all that much about drunk-while-walking. OK, an ambulatory drunk can be loud, and I have once or twice found confused drunken men urinating in my garden (socially a bit gauche but actually good for the plants). I wonder why it is criminalised?
drunk while driving, now that really makes me angry. at least one friend of mine has been killed by a drunken motorist and I consider it murder.

Posted by: DeAnander | Aug 17 2007 1:09 utc | 36

Re:prison
The swedish prison system I suppose would be characterised as luxorious by many standards. You have your own room (generally, though there has been some crowding due to longer sentences for drug related crimes (war on drugs and all of that)) as being alone is seen as a foundation for moral reflexion. You work or study during the day and you can work out, watch tv, read books, and so on during your spare time. The punishment is simply that you are not free. A life sentence in Sweden is in real terms about 20 years (used to be 15).
Prison is said to be pretty boring, and no one wants to go there. Sems to work as a good enough deterrent, violent crime exists but is not rampant in any way.
Actually I think deterrents are over-rated as it would appear no one who commits crime seams to think they will be caught anyway or they are simply not considering it, a more general version of dans statement regarding murder. And I do not think the Enron thiefs considered it a crime either, they were just doing what everyone else was doing.
Btw, nice story possum. Love to see you at the next summit. I think the plans for the next anaual MoA summit is Venice if I have not missed any changes in the plans. Did we say spring? As long as it is in europe and cheap travel still exists, I will go there for sure.

Posted by: a swedish kind of death | Aug 17 2007 1:18 utc | 37

DeA,
Agreed on drunk driving.

ya know, on the the whole I don’t care all that much about drunk-while-walking. OK, an ambulatory drunk can be loud, and I have once or twice found confused drunken men urinating in my garden (socially a bit gauche but actually good for the plants). I wonder why it is criminalised?

Too drunk to be able to walk yourself home is not (afaik, ianal) criminal, you are simply remanded while sobering up (if you are a minor they call your folks and hand you over to them). Then you are released the next morning. If you remanded several times (the experienced fellow I talked too told me) social services are contacted. Mainly to make sure you do not have neglected children at home. Well, this is the case in Sweden anyway.
Sweden being a booze country, to drunk to walk is when people literarly trip themselves repeatedly while trying to stand. It being to cold too sleep outside most of the year, getting people indoors while sobering up is a necessary social service. Not that I am uncritical of it, I think it would be better if the sobering up part was more a medical matter. People have died in lock-ups either from booze poisoning or injuries sustained while arrested (some can still fight even when they can not stand, and not all cops mind showing the perps who is the boss).
Peeing in public is however criminal in Sweden and the state rakes in a lot from those fines from both men and women.

Posted by: a swedish kind of death | Aug 17 2007 1:39 utc | 38

Peeing in public is however criminal in Sweden and the state rakes in a lot from those fines from both men and women.
good for the plants *and* raises tax revenue. a win/win situation 🙂

Posted by: DeAnander | Aug 17 2007 19:15 utc | 39

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