Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
June 15, 2007
Talks With Hamas

M.J. Rosenberg, a Jewish liberal writer, has a decent piece at TPM Café. He is one of few in the U.S. who rightly tracks the creation of Hamas back to rightwing Israeli powers:

It was in 1978 when the government of then-Prime Minister Menachem Begin indirectly assisted the start-up of a "humanitarian" organization known as the Islamic Association, or Mujama. The roots of this Islamist group were in the fundamentalist Muslim Brotherhood, of which Hamas is an offshoot, and it soon was flush with funding and political support. The right-wing strategists devised the theory of creating Hamas as an alternative to Fatah because they believed that Muslim Brotherhood types would devote themselves to charity and religious study and passively accept the occupation. They certainly would never put Israel on the spot by offering to negotiate.

The pro-Hamas tilt accelerated in 1988 when Yasir Arafat himself announced that he favored the two-state solution and that previous PLO demands that Israel be replaced by Palestine were, in his words “caduq” (inoperative).

But when Hamas gained power nobody would talk to them just like nobody seriously talked with Abbas. The Israeli right is simply hellbent to avoid any real talk about a Palestinian state.

The name of their game was, is, and always will be making sure that Israel has “no partner” with whom to negotiate.

One can certainly argue that the right has achieved that aim.

But now the scenario has changed a bit. Hamas controls Gaza and as it is quite disciplined, it will be much harder to undermine than Fatah and it is much stronger.

The U.S. rushes to do what some have urged it to do all along. According to Haaretz:

[T]he United States said Thursday that the Bush administration will now work to prevent the violence from spilling over to the West Bank. To achieve that, Israel may be urged to make concessions in the West Bank, since the United States aims to accelerate the Israeli-Palestinian negotiations to allow Abbas to chalk up some political achievements.

In addition to asking Israel to free the tax funds, Washington is also expected to urge Israel to reconsider loosening its military grip on the West Bank.


The American administration is also interested in improving living conditions in the West Bank to demonstrate to the Palestinians that they are better off under Fatah than Hamas.

This would probably have had some effect three years ago, but it is too late now. In the view of the Palestinian people Fatah has disqualified itself. In addition to be corrupt and hapless administrators, Fatah has lost face when it accepted U.S. help for the internal political fight against Hamas. Even the very right Jerusalem Post acknowledges such:

BY OPENLY embracing Abbas and Fatah, Washington has caused them grave damage. The weapons and funds that were supposed to boost Fatah ahead of a confrontation with Hamas have only increased Hamas’s popularity on the streets of the Gaza Strip. The public support for Fatah made Abbas and Muhammed Dahlan look, in the eyes of many Palestinians, like Antoine Lahad, the former commander of the pro-Israeli South Lebanon Army. And when a Palestinian sees that the Americans are trying to bring down his democratically-elected government, his sympathies go straight to the government and not to those allegedly involved in the conspiracy.

Now engaging Fatah is fruitless. Besides that, Israel and the U.S. Congress will continue to undermine any real progress for Abbas to claim. This sham will thereby further discredit him.

One big danger now is that some rightwingers will try again what has failed before – to create a new more radical religious force to undermine Hamas. But as the recent history in Lebanon shows, a radical Salafist force, in Lebanon created with U.S. help to fight Hizbullah, may immediately start working on its own agenda.

Another big danger is that the Palestinian Authority, the government in the West Bank and Gaza,  may fail. Abbas today fired the Hamas let cabinet, an illegal move, and announced a new one putting the "independent" pro-"western" World Bank and IMF functionary Salam Fayyad up as Prime Minister. This may for now get him some applause from Washington, but it will certainly not help to keep national unity.

As Ghaith al-Omari, a former adviser to the Palestinian President warns on PBS:

However, what could happen, though, is that pressure might become so much that the whole Palestinian Authority might collapse. This is my biggest concern, because if that happens, we’ll no longer see this kind of identifiable violence between Hamas and Fatah. We will see the complete disintegration, where street gangs, where clans, where all of these small groups will start fighting, the kind of situation that will allow for al-Qaida to infiltrate, that will create a much more difficult situation than we have right now.

Mark Perry of Conflicts Forum agrees:

Hamas is really a moderate organization. We don’t look at an Islamist group as a moderate organization, but if Gaza and the West Bank descend into chaos, we’re not going to get Fatah replacing Hamas. We’re going to get al-Qaida.

The rational alternative is to talk to Hamas. Perry again:

It’s time to start talking with Islamist moderate groups, no matter how distasteful we think about it. We have to start recognizing legitimate Islamist groups that win elections. Hamas won an election.

And al-Omari, himself a Fatah man:

[Hamas] represent a constituency. It would be ridiculous to push them aside. They have to be engaged, again, within certain principles. They have to be pushed. They have to be pressured. However, they have to be engaged. If we push them away, we will get violence.

This is what happened. They were not allowed to govern, they resorted to violence. The only way that we can have stability is if we talk to them.

So these experts agree that the best thing to do is to talk to Hamas and to let them govern.

But as this is the best to do now, it is almost guaranteed that nobody will do it. The rightwingers will again make sure no steps will be taken that may lead to a real partner for negotiations. They are screaming that evil Iran or Syria is giving weapons to Hamas (look at a map and tell me just how that could ever happen) and sensationalize its very moderate Islamic character as "radical".

There currently seems to be no real concern that what happened in Gaza
can repeat in the West Bank. Sure Fatah has more fighters there than
Hamas, but that was also the case in Gaza. A disorganized and corrupt
force will simply dissolve when confronted.

I do expect a Hamas
takeover in the West Bank to take place within the next few month. If that happens as fast and relatively bloodless as in Gaza, a breakdown of the government can be avoided. Then, for lack of any alternative, someone will have to talk to them.

Comments

U.S. Mideast Envoy On Palestinian Civil War: “I Like This Violence

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Jun 15 2007 19:20 utc | 1

Great post b, thanks.
The entire US policy in the region is disastrous. Each time I think it’s as bad as it can be, it just gets worse.
The Seattle Post Intelligencer has an interesting piece out called Fatah loyalists contemplate future. It has a lot of on the ground details that I haven’t seen elsewhere. I take note especially of the last paragraph:

Abu Obeideh, spokesman for Hamas’ military wing, said his men relied on mortars because they could fire them from inside their bases. He added, however, that they now had access to more advanced weaponry they had confiscated from seized compounds.
“Weapons that we have never seen in our lives before,” he said.

Posted by: Bea | Jun 15 2007 21:38 utc | 2

Some more good links on this:
Hamas Does Not Want to Seize Power

Damascus-based Hamas political leader Khaled Meshal said Friday his group does not want to seize power in the Palestinian Authority, adding that Hamas recognizes Abbas as the Palestinian Authority chairman.
Addressing media in the Syrian capital, Meshal said that Hamas had not wanted to take over the Gaza Strip.
“Hamas does not want to seize power … We are faithful to the Palestinian people,” Meshal said, promising to help rebuild Palestinian homes damaged in the months of bloody infighting.
“What happened in Gaza was a necessary step. The people were suffering from chaos and lack of security and this treatment was needed,” Meshal continued. “The lack of security drove the crisis toward explosion.”
“Abbas has legitimacy,” Meshal said, “There’s no one who would question or doubt that, he is an elected president, and we will cooperate with him for the sake of national interest.”
But he also warned Fatah followers not to move this conflict to the West Bank where the moderate movement is dominant.

Paul Woodward of the blog The War in Context comments:

In the West and Israel, elected officials will say (and probably think) otherwise, but I have little doubt that in diplomatic circles it is widely recognized that the real practitioners of statesmanship right now are Khaled Meshal and Ismail Haniyeh. Unfortunately, Mahmoud Abbas (most likely at Condoleezza Rice’s prompting) has already backed himself into a corner by dismissing the government and appointing a new prime minister. Hamas’ leaders, nevertheless, are unequivocal in stating their bona fides as Palestinian nationalists. Is it not time for other Palestinian leaders to do the same?

Olmert to Tell Bush: We Need to Separate Gaza from the West Bank

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert is planning to tell United States President George Bush at their meeting at the White House next Tuesday that there is an urgent need to view the West Bank and the Gaza Strip as separate entities and prevent contact between them, political sources in Jerusalem said Thursday.
According to the sources, the defense establishment is recommending a “separation policy” for the two territories, and is emphasizing the importance of “ensuring that what is happening this week in Gaza will not happen in the West Bank.”

Another noteworthy Comment from The War in Context again:

It’s clear that Israel and the U.S. are now going to vigorously pursue a strategy of divide and rule. Abbas is being offered the “bribe” of withheld taxes — an offer he can hardly refuse since this is money that should already have gone into Palestinian government accounts. Nevertheless, what should be transparent to every Palestinian is that the strings attached to this particular “gift” are intended to strangle any hope for the creation of a Palestinian state.

Posted by: Bea | Jun 16 2007 1:28 utc | 3

Tabula Gaza
Blog of Egyptian German Philip Rizk, presently living in Gaza, who introduces himself as:

Tabula rasa: the mind in its hypothetical primary blank or empty state before receiving outside impressions. gaza: a place misconceived and unknown to many. enter this world through these eyes. i have been living in gaza since august 2005 and for this time i have found a home here. i hope these words and images about a people so often misunderstood and so voiceless, will speak to you, maybe touch you or move you. i pray that these words will cause you to speak out on behalf of the people whom i have grown to love. salam, philip rizk

For anyone who is interested in the perspective of someone who is actually on the ground in Gaza.

Posted by: Bea | Jun 16 2007 1:38 utc | 4

Ali Abunimah of Electronic Intifada:
A Setback for the Bush Doctrine in Gaza (Opinion)

Posted by: Bea | Jun 16 2007 1:41 utc | 5

Ali Abunimah, Gazan Leila el-Haddad (of the blog, Raising Yusuf Unplugged), and Gaza journalist Fares Akram are interviewed on Democracy Now today.
Ali Abunimah:

What I think we are seeing is the collapse of the two-state solution. Alvaro de Soto acknowledged that in his leaked confidential report. And today in the The Washington Post Edward Abington, the former US Counsel general in Jerusalem and now a lobbyist for the Palestinian authority was quoted saying that these events signal the death of the two-state solution. I think we have to recognize that the Israeli policy of trying to create Palestinian ghettos [inaudible] is failing before our very eyes. Palestinians are the majority population in Israeli-ruled territory between Jordan and the Mediterranean Sea. And it’s only a matter of time before the world wakes up to this reality.

Posted by: Bea | Jun 16 2007 1:49 utc | 6

Pretty creepy photos.
More photos. (BBC)

Posted by: Bea | Jun 16 2007 2:01 utc | 7

Thank you, friends. This is a very helpful thread. You guys, esp B and Bea, really have wrapped it up. There are bits all over the place, but your posts here have been most helpful!
Muchas gracias.

Posted by: Jake | Jun 16 2007 2:06 utc | 8

Comment by an Israeli journalist in the mainstream paper Yediot Aharonot:

“Ten, 20, 30 years ago 1,001 plans for peace, separation, ceasefire were offered to us and them and we, the arrogant thugs of the Middle Eastern neighbourhood, rejected them one by one,” said Eitan Haber in the large-circulation Yediot Aharonot. “Today we would have accepted them with both hands, embraced them, kissed them, if only those proposals would come again, damn it.”

Posted by: Bea | Jun 16 2007 2:17 utc | 9

Yes, many thanks to Bea & b…
I don’t know of a better website than MOA for information on the situation in Gaza. Actually makes antiwar.com look deficient and the situation is being only superficially reported in the MSM.

Posted by: Rick | Jun 16 2007 2:24 utc | 10

actually, I take that back somewhat… antiwar.com is better this evening with more and better links than the last few days.

Posted by: Rick | Jun 16 2007 2:38 utc | 11

Thanks Jake and Rick!
Here is my last contribution for the day:
Patrick Seale: Middle East War or Peace This Summer?

Posted by: Bea | Jun 16 2007 2:39 utc | 12

Bea your effort on this topic, along with so many other topics that you have contributed to lately, have been terrific. Again, I have found no better sight on the Internet for information and comment than Moon of Alabama.
With that said, I think it is going to become more important than ever to keep a watch on world events. I see things only getting worse in the Middle East for near times ahead. Many comments here over the years reflect trouble ahead for Americans. There will be zero tolerance remaining for U.S. ambitions. Will China be a significant force in a stabilizing role when needed? And the world is going to need some stability. Things could get real ugly real fast, or on the other hand, humankind could slowly move to a new age for peace and prosperity. Either is possible.

Posted by: Rick | Jun 16 2007 3:08 utc | 13

hey… using the word sight, instead of site, was a Freudian slip I think.

Posted by: Rick | Jun 16 2007 3:12 utc | 14

an adjustment in a site, will necessarily entail an adjustment in sight

Posted by: anna missed | Jun 16 2007 3:30 utc | 15

anna missed,
Looks like the bar is sort of empty tonight. But that’s OK, its good to see you here.. Let me buy you a drink! Your comments on the Iraq/U.S. situation are very appreciated. Experience is the fastest way to knowledge and your comments have been well noted by this barfly.

Posted by: Rick | Jun 16 2007 3:57 utc | 16

Thanks for that excellent and measured round-up, B. There isn’t much more to be said, within the format of such post.
It seems to me the Palestinians (ok, I’ll write in full. I was once thrown off a board for saying someone was a Paki – I didn’t know that was derogatory) are the manipulated victims of absolutely everyone – US – West – etc.
Comparing with an individual victim – very similar. Victims are blamed for their own troubles, their aggressors are pardoned; they are often ‘helped’ in a hypocritical, self-serving way, often doing the victim little good, or keeping him/her in the victim position, or making the person dependent on a new master; they are turned away from, ignored, ostracized, and may simply be eliminated because, finally, it is all too bothersome.
In many ways, for individuals, the victim position is a dangerous one, and if one has any wits and guts left it is better not to embrace it.
Good psychologists will always try to go down this path (…empowerment, it can be successful, even for the victims of dreadful torture, etc.)
Part of the sad fractioning of our world – gender and identity, ethnic, politics – that are exploited by the PTB for their own ends – are the outcome of failure to tackle that aspect of power relations, in families, small groups and large tribes. Symptom: Sadism in old people’s homes is almost impossible to eradicate (West.) More could be said, but surely everyone gets the drift.
The Palestinians, however, obtain no benefit from their victim status. They have never been able, in the sense of having never really been accorded the position (or have not wished..) to coerce, blackmail, demand, beg, on the basis of a ‘victim’ status. Nor have they taken the upper hand, and fought back. –Look at the Algerians, the Vietnamese, or the Iraqis today! So seeing Hamas take action, within such a pov, is positive.
The victim – aggressor position is held by Israel, with encouragement and acceptance from its tongue in cheek supporters, and Isr. exploits it to the hilt. It is wearing a bit thin these days?
Media blurb, propaganda, non covert psy-ops, rest on emotions, feelings, perceptions, related to very archaic stereotypes.
thx to everyone for the links. drinks all round.

Posted by: Noirette | Jun 16 2007 13:05 utc | 17

My neighbor, under 25 and non-European, tells me Egypt will take Gaza, Jordan, la Trans-Jordanie. Then he pushed off for a hot date.

Posted by: Noirette | Jun 16 2007 13:10 utc | 18

The Palestinians, however, obtain no benefit from their victim status
pretty unlucky on their part. their oppressors, thanks to some fairly bad shit going down 60 years ago and an incredibly effective PR campaign capitalizing on that bad shit are universally considered victims so trying to conjure up an image of victims of victims becomes tricky.
I have to disagree with your position that the Palestinians have not fought back. they have been fighting since the beginning and have paid a very high price for their resistance. US and European public opinion has been molded in way to consider Palestinian resistance as terrorism. This theme was successfully advanced through movies and print media and today the image nearly everyone has of a terrorist is that of someone with a beard and headscarf.
Now Israel wants to use this episode as an excuse to cut all ties between Gaza and the West Bank so that is what will happen. What gives them the right to do such a thing, let alone propose it, is not questioned.
It might not be a bad idea for Egypt to become the protector of Gaza, why not? Jordan could annex the West Bank too, it could be a semi-autonomous region. It would mean giving up the right of return and giving up on any chance of getting back land and property stolen in the last 60 years but maybe it is time to get the best deal possible. Israel would lose some of its justification for bellicosity and that is one thing that makes this scenario highly unlikely.

Posted by: dan of steele | Jun 16 2007 14:10 utc | 19

Haaretz on further Israeli plans
For starters blank racism by Sharon:

Sharon begins by identifying with the suffering of the Palestinians, and speaks of the great opportunity that will befall them in Gaza after the Israeli withdrawal. Rice’s ears perk up; it’s not every day that you hear Sharon displaying such empathy. “There are only two problems,” says Sharon, turning his gaze to his left. “Dubi, how do you say ‘bloodthirsty’ in English?” Sharon’s adviser Dov Weissglas chokes on his avocado salad as an embarrassed silence fills the room. U.S. Deputy National Security Adviser Elliott Abrams translates the term. Now it’s Rice’s turn to choke on her salad. “There are only two problems,” repeats Sharon. “They’re bloodthirsty and treacherous.”
“All of them?” asks Rice.
“Yes,” the prime minister responds. “All of them.”

Now Olmert’s plans to manipulate the U.S.:

The Hamas victory bolsters Israel’s unstated policy of dividing the Palestinian Authority into two states – Gaza and the West Bank. Israel cannot say this out loud in front of the Americans, who are committed to a single Palestinian state, so Olmert will have to speak in code. He will suggest that Bush strengthen international support for the peace process. This would involve deploying an international force in Gaza, implementing an engineering solution to block arms smuggling in Rafah, pressuring the Egyptians to do more against the smugglers, and encouraging the Saudis to stop being embarrassed by the collapse of the Palestinian unity agreement cooked up in Mecca. Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni will present this policy on Monday to 27 European foreign ministers, who invited her to speak at a conference in Luxembourg.
The Americans, meanwhile, are not rushing to switch gears. They still believe that strengthening Abbas is the only solution left, and that’s what they’ll tell Olmert. Some American officials listened skeptically this week to talk of handing Gaza over to a multinational force. Questions that were raised included who would send these forces and how they would carry out their work. Israeli complaints last week that UN Security Council resolutions are not being enforced in Lebanon, where a multinational force already has been deployed, bring the doubts into sharper focus.

Note the chutzpah of Israel lamentating about not fullfilled UN resolutions …

All the same, officials in the Prime Minister’s Bureau expect the new reality in Gaza to force the American administration to pay more attention to Israeli ideas. If the internationalization of Gaza does turn out to be practical, it will raise the question of what to do with the West Bank. A senior political official in Jerusalem said this week that Israel must not despair of having Abbas as a partner, because he can be useful despite his failure in Gaza, and that Israel should not rush to hold talks with Hamas or adopt proposals for placing the territories under international trusteeship. The world is eager to see political progress, and as a first step, it is pressuring Israel to release the PA’s frozen tax funds. The collapse of the Palestinian unity government provides an opportunity to transfer the funds to Abbas.
Rice and Livni support talk of a “political horizon,” a kind of theoretical discussion with the Palestinian “moderates” over the character of their future state. Nothing will be implemented until the Palestinians meet several tests; in the meantime, the international pressure on Israel will ease up. Europe will be asked to provide financial aid, and the Arab League will be asked to take steps toward normalized relations with Israel in exchange for Israeli gestures toward the Palestinians. Something like “Israeli representation in Bahrain in exchange for the release of 500 prisoners” or “a photograph of Olmert and Livni with Persian Gulf princes in exchange for the removal of 40 roadblocks.”

I’d call that using hostages …

Posted by: b | Jun 16 2007 14:23 utc | 20

It might not be a bad idea for Egypt to become the protector of Gaza, why not? Jordan could annex the West Bank too, it could be a semi-autonomous region. It would mean giving up the right of return and giving up on any chance of getting back land and property stolen in the last 60 years but maybe it is time to get the best deal possible. Israel would lose some of its justification for bellicosity and that is one thing that makes this scenario highly unlikely.
Hmmm – do you think the Egypt dictator will welcome 1.5 million friends of the Muslim Brotherhood? He just put most of their leaders into prison (and worse).
The Israeli wouldn’t like this either. If people from Gaza could roam freely across to egypt, they might come up with better tools than some homemade ineffective quassams.
On the Jordan side the same problem. The Jordan king has already lots of trouble with some 1.6 million palestinians in his small country. 2.5 million more form the West Bank? How long would his dynasty survive?
Also look at the Jordan valley. It is totally occupied by one major Israeli settlement (there is water, can’t let the Palestinians have that …). The West Bank would still be very isolated and seperated from Jordan.
And another little point: The Palestinians would not agree with Dan’s idea …

Posted by: b | Jun 16 2007 16:19 utc | 21

Egypt has a treaty with Israel and they have not attacked Israel since signing the treaty. As long as they continue to take money from the US for honoring that treaty it would be in their interests to keep the rabble rousers in Gaza under control.
as for the other side, if Jordan were to annex the West Bank they would get all of it as defined by UN Resolution 242. Jordan has peace treaties with Israel so it would be in their interest to keep the status quo.
Israel would have its recognition, the Palestinians would have an end to the waiting. It is not ideal but I challenge anyone to come up with a better feasible solution.
as many have said in the past, Israel is there and we can’t wish it away. No one will run the Israelis into the sea, the state is there to stay for the foreseeable future. My suggestion would at least put an end to refugee camps and turn them into cities or settlements…something permanent. Once your fate is determined you can start working to make it better or at least bearable….I can think of nothing worse than decades of uncertainty.

Posted by: dan of steele | Jun 16 2007 16:42 utc | 22

As long as they continue to take money from the US for honoring that treaty it would be in their interests to keep the rabble rousers in Gaza under control.
“under control” – now what does that mean Dan?
“rabble rousers” – oh – their land and livelyhood was stolen, lots of their people killed and now they protest and fight. Damn – why can’t they just get over this. I’m sure you would. Would you Dan?
You ask for U.S. payed Egyptian prision guards to keep that few million “rabble rousers”, whatever you mean by that, against their will “under control”. By the usual means of the Egyptian U.S. financed dictatorship one would think.
Your “solution” is to pay your U.S. taxes to contract Egyptian thugs so that Israel doesn’t have to make its hands dirty or pay reparations or find a solution for the injustice it created. Peace for the “beautiful mind”?
if Jordan were to annex the West Bank they would get all of it as defined by UN Resolution 242.
You think Olmert or any other Israeli politician would agree to this? Ha! Their plan is to expell the Palestinians to Jordan and not to give a square foot of the stolen land back.
That little problem of Jerusalem and its role in Judaism, Christianity and Islam is still there.
a better feasible solution.
ASSOCIATION FOR ONE DEMOCRATIC STATE IN PALESTINE / ISRAEL

Posted by: b | Jun 16 2007 17:29 utc | 23

b, frankly I don’t know what I would do if I were in Gaza. Would I have the courage to pick up a rifle and shoot an Israeli invader? It would mean almost certain death for me and probably anyone who lived near me. When you face overwhelming force, is suicide the most effective option? For forty years this has been going on and there is NO solution in sight. I wish I had the exact quote but insanity is defined by doing the same thing over and over again hoping for a different outcome. Something else has to be tried.
you address the futility of any other solution when you state that no Israeli politician would relinquish occupied territory. the same thing holds true for the proposed One Democratic State in Palestine. The PTB in Israel are not natives of the area, some of their children are but the great majority are from Europe and Russia. They have nothing in common with the people who have been living there for thousands of years. To expect them to consider the indigenous peoples as equals is wishful thinking.
So a one state solution will not be accepted by the Israelis because sooner or later they would be a minority in their new country. A two state solution will not be accepted by the Israelis because they would have to address return rights and give up occupied territories. What is left?
As for Jerusalem, it would have been best that it became an international city, whole and with its own government. It is now pretty much the official capital of Israel and the US State Department refers to it as such. Most Christians in the US and probably Europe would much rather have Jerusalem under Jewish control than Muslim. That is not my position rather my observation of how things are.

Posted by: dan of steele | Jun 16 2007 18:12 utc | 24

genocide is genocide. either you acknowledge israel has no plans for there ever to be a palestine, or you don’t. all this talk of solutions is just talk. the only solution srael will be happy with is total control of the middle east, the new map of little states and palestines isn’t one of them.
everything that is happening is in their path to break it down under some illusion of them ‘trying everything’ bla bla blather.
they will never ever in a million years agree to one state. as i see it this can go one of two ways. eventually IS/US controls the ME, or israel ceases to exist. either way all hell is going to break loose unless it happens so gradually over so many generations that it just becomes a permanent war zone.
israel would never allow the west bank to go to jordan. absurd.
if by some stroke of genius both IS/US had some total makeover politically i could imagine a scenario things could improve. what is the likelihood of that?

Posted by: annie | Jun 16 2007 18:42 utc | 25

Council’s Bethlehem link angers Jews

A Sydney council’s decision to form a sister city relationship with Bethlehem has outraged members of the Jewish community.
They say the move is akin to supporting terrorism.
Marrickville Council, in Sydney’s inner west, has had an in-principle agreement since 2001 with the Palestinian city believed by some Christian scholars to have been the birthplace of Jesus Christ, although others say it was not.
The agreement is due to be formally ratified at a council meeting next Tuesday.
Councillor Sam Iskandar said the city had been chosen as a symbol of love, peace and harmony, but the Jewish community say it is anything but.
NSW Jewish Board of Deputies chief executive Vic Alhadeff said Bethlehem Council was controlled by members of the terrorist organisations Hamas and Islamic Jihad, which support the killing of Jews.
A delegation from Bethlehem Council is due to visit Sydney in late August to sign the agreement and hold discussions with Marrickville Council.
Mr Alhadeff said this could give a platform for Hamas members to spread anti-Jewish propaganda.
“A Bethlehem delegation could include Hamas members,” he said.
“This means an international guest could address a public meeting hosted by this council and call for the destruction of Israel and death to the Jews.”
Mr Alhadeff is also concerned that funds provided by Marrickville Council could end up in Hamas coffers, supporting terrorist activity.

Posted by: b | Jun 16 2007 19:19 utc | 26

Jerusalem is now pretty much the official capital of Israel and the US State Department refers to it as such.
Hmmm – the state department does list Jerusalem as capitol, but has this quite relevant footnote: “Note 5: Israel proclaimed Jerusalem as its capital in 1950. The United States, like nearly all other countries, maintains its embassy in Tel Aviv.”
They have nothing in common with the people who have been living there for thousands of years. To expect them to consider the indigenous peoples as equals is wishful thinking.
If one looks at the history of the U.S. and its indigenous people one will certaily find a huge examples of such disgusting behaviour. But that’s history.
You may not, but I do expect people of my time to consider all other humans as equal. I do expect people to not be racists.
I am not going to start justifying racism and giving in to racists if only the pressure enough. Which is the core of your argument.
Dan, you are on a very slippery slope there.
BTW: If your argument holds, why should Arabs consider Israeli people as equals? Or you?

Posted by: b | Jun 16 2007 19:29 utc | 27

c’mon b, you are not calling me a racist are you? I specifically stated that the Powers That Be in Israel are mostly European and Russian (I guess that is redundant) have nothing in common with people who have for generations lived in the middle east. Race has nothing to do with it as they are all semites.
a quick google search reveals postponed plans to move the embassy to Jerusalem
&lt snark&gt no one should consider me their equal as I am vastly superior in every way &lt/snark&gt

Posted by: dan of steele | Jun 16 2007 19:58 utc | 28

you are not calling me a racist are you?
No I am not. But you write:
To expect them to consider the indigenous peoples as equals is wishful thinking.
I do expect migrants to Israel to consider the indigenous peoples as equals. And if that’s wishful thinking, than expectations about the end of slavery, of segregation and of the holocaust was wishful thinking too.

Posted by: b | Jun 16 2007 20:06 utc | 29

There goes the “strategy” documented in 20 – somehow these indegenious people don’t agree:
Palestinian Split Poses a Policy Quandary for U.S.

The idea is to concentrate Western efforts and money on the occupied West Bank, which Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas and his Fatah faction control, in an effort to make it the shining model of a new Palestine that will somehow bring Gaza, and the radical Islamic group Hamas, to terms.

But like all seemingly elegant solutions in this region, this one has many pitfalls. It is entirely unclear whether Hamas would sit still during such an effort, whether Mr. Abbas would be willing to ignore the 1.5 million residents of Gaza or whether the separation strategy would gain the crucial support of the Arab world.
As Daniel Levy of the Century Foundation and the New America Foundation in Washington suggests, it’s hard to imagine how Mr. Abbas could accept the tax receipts Israel has been withholding from the Hamas government and use them only for West Bankers. The Palestinians in Gaza and the refugee diaspora would not stand for it, he says, and Fatah might lose more popularity than it gains.
Mr. Abbas is already under pressure from some Arab governments, in particular the Saudis, who mediated the national-unity government at Mecca, to take Hamas at its word and try to recreate a shared government.
In a speech on Friday to an emergency meeting of the Arab League, Saudi Foreign Minister Saud al-Faisal said, “The Palestinians have come close to putting by themselves the last nail in the coffin of the Palestinian cause.”
But he added, “It would be best for our Palestinian brothers to return to their commitment to the Mecca agreement and work to carry it out.”
Both the United States and Israel are reeling from the rapid and ignominious collapse of Fatah in Gaza in recent days, despite significant injections of American political and military advice and aid.

The United States and Israel are each searching for short- and medium-term responses to a collapse neither saw coming. Both want to limit the regional impact of the latest victory of radical Islam over Western-backed, secular forces. And both are worried about the impact on Egypt, which is trying to seal its border from Gazan refugees and where President Hosni Mubarak faces a serious internal challenge from the Muslim Brotherhood, the radical Islamist organization with which Hamas is affiliated.

Hamas may in turn make something of its new responsibilities in Gaza. Without what it considers the troublemakers of the Fatah security forces, some of whom had been engaging in crime and destabilizing acts, Hamas may very well bring a new security to the people of Gaza. And if the customs connection to Israel is broken, it may be able to work out a deal to ship goods in and out of Egypt and create some jobs.

Posted by: b | Jun 16 2007 22:19 utc | 30

If one looks at the history of the U.S. and its indigenous people one will certaily find a huge examples of such disgusting behaviour. But that’s history.
b, it is not dan being racist here imho, he is being realistic. i don’t here him saying, and this is how it should be, i here him stating it is as close to reality as he ses it. israel is racist. tho the ‘disgusting behavior’ is part of our history, it is still part of the here and now, tho not in the same extremes. we can all wish it were different but it was wishful thinking at many points for the slavery to end here and it required a war to make it happen, only then there were decades of reprecussions and still it isn’t ‘equal’ even now.
To expect them to consider the indigenous peoples as equals is wishful thinking.
zionists? i totally agree. i no more expect them to treat them or consider them equal than fly to the moon. it doesn’t mean i agree w/this racism, it doesn’t mean i think we should cater to it, but acknowledge it? how could we not. it’s like expecting red state republicans or white supremists to consider everyone equal, let’s face it, they don’t. while i may not agree w/dan’s solution, i don’t think he is on the slippery slope to racism for having it. personally i favor a one state solution but zionists think this is akin to anti semitism, the annihilation of israel all together. it’s not over til the fat lady sings. until then we can all keep wishing and who knows, maybe the future will bear decent fruit. we have a long way to go.

Posted by: annie | Jun 16 2007 23:33 utc | 31

shit, sorry about the link ! and nad?? eegads!

Posted by: annie | Jun 16 2007 23:57 utc | 33

You may not, but I do expect people of my time to consider all other humans as equal. I do expect people to not be racists.
Amen to that, b. I do too.

Posted by: Bea | Jun 17 2007 4:04 utc | 34

The idea is to concentrate Western efforts and money on the occupied West Bank, which Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas and his Fatah faction control, in an effort to make it the shining model of a new Palestine that will somehow bring Gaza, and the radical Islamic group Hamas, to terms.
This is utter bullshit. Anyone who knows the situation on the ground knows that the West Bank has been carved up into mini-bantustans and that the many Jewish settlements built there are in control of significant roads, land, and water resources. There isn’t any viable possibility any more of a “shining model of a new Palestine.” Not to mention the Wall. This is a laughable proposition.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jun 17 2007 4:11 utc | 35

The idea is to concentrate Western efforts and money on the occupied West Bank, which Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas and his Fatah faction control, in an effort to make it the shining model of a new Palestine that will somehow bring Gaza, and the radical Islamic group Hamas, to terms.
This is utter bullshit. Anyone who knows the situation on the ground knows that the West Bank has been carved up into mini-bantustans and that the many Jewish settlements built there are in control of significant roads, land, and water resources. There isn’t any viable possibility any more of a “shining model of a new Palestine.” Not to mention the Wall. This is a laughable proposition.

Posted by: Bea | Jun 17 2007 4:12 utc | 36

Oops, sorry for the double post. I thought I had stopped the first (nameless) one.

Posted by: Bea | Jun 17 2007 4:13 utc | 37

Hmmm – do you think the Egypt dictator will welcome 1.5 million friends of the Muslim Brotherhood? He just put most of their leaders into prison (and worse).
The Israeli wouldn’t like this either. If people from Gaza could roam freely across to egypt, they might come up with better tools than some homemade ineffective quassams.

I agree.
On the Jordan side the same problem. The Jordan king has already lots of trouble with some 1.6 million palestinians in his small country. 2.5 million more form the West Bank? How long would his dynasty survive?
Also look at the Jordan valley. It is totally occupied by one major Israeli settlement (there is water, can’t let the Palestinians have that …). The West Bank would still be very isolated and seperated from Jordan.

I agree.
And another little point: The Palestinians would not agree with Dan’s idea …
You are correct on this point as well!!!

Posted by: Bea | Jun 17 2007 4:16 utc | 38

Motivation wins – one can’t buy everybody off.
How Hamas turned on Palestine’s ‘traitors’

How did Hamas win? In the eyes of Gaza residents, the fight and subsequent defeat were inevitable because Fatah’s forces in Gaza were widely considered nothing more than an undisciplined series of criminal gangs.
‘[They won] from motivation, not fighting for money,’ said another Gaza resident. ‘They are not getting salaries. It’s not a question of Hamas having more fighters, I don’t think there were more, but the quality of the men carrying the weapons is totally different.
‘Some fought for four days without going home. They believe in what they’re doing. The others, Fatah security forces, fought for their thousand shekels (£120) or a packet of cigarettes. Dahlan had used poverty to recruit the people. The majority didn’t even turn up to defend their stations, many stayed at home. Most were in plain clothes. Dozens called the Qassam and said, “We want to leave, give us security and a safe passage.” Most of the decent security people don’t want to fight for Dahlan, or Israel or America. They don’t feel they should be killed for the American or Israeli agenda.’
‘These guys [Fatah] would join either Hamas or the Israelis tomorrow if someone would pay them,’ said one local journalist. ‘They don’t care who they fight for, as long as they get paid.’ And they performed like it last week.

Posted by: b | Jun 17 2007 8:12 utc | 39

Give peace a chance

Sarah, who lives on a nearby settlement and had come to Homesh to make a similar point, gestured expansively to the hills on the horizon and declared “in the long term we’ll be on that hilltop, and that one, and that one and Gaza too. It’ll be a slow process, but it will happen.” She lamented the fact that “round the world people have an image of us as the bad guys, but they [the Palestinians] can build their houses anywhere and not get killed, whereas whenever we settle somewhere we need the army to come and defend us. It’s ironic.”
And – regardless of her skewed interpretation of which side is more dangerous to the other – the fact that the army were once again opting to walk hand-in-hand with the settler back into the West Bank is a damning indictment of the political status quo in Israel. For the Palestinian villagers looking up at the spectacle from down in the valley, “We will never forgive, we will never forget” could well become their rejoinder next time they’re asked to take Israel’s overtures of peace seriously.

Posted by: b | Jun 17 2007 8:31 utc | 40

London Times: Israel plans attack on Gaza

ISRAEL’s new defence minister Ehud Barak is planning an attack on Gaza within weeks to crush the Hamas militants who have seized power there.
According to senior Israeli military sources, the plan calls for 20,000 troops to destroy much of Hamas’s military capability in days.
The raid would be triggered by Hamas rocket attacks against Israel or a resumption of suicide bombings.
Barak, who is expected to become defence minister tomorrow, has already demanded detailed plans to deploy two armoured divisions and an infantry division, accompanied by assault drones and F-16 jets, against Hamas.

But how to trigger Hamas to do rocket attacks or suicide bombings. Well, that is Abbas task. He will care for his people.
Abbas plan calls for struggle against Hamas’ ‘military coup’

The blockade of the Gaza Strip will continue, under the plan framed by Abbas. Israel and Egypt will provide a small amount of humanitarian aid to Gaza residents, but the government of Ismail Haniyeh – dissolved by Abbas – will continue to be viewed as illegitimate in the eyes of the international community. Gaza’s borders will be nearly hermetically sealed, with only limited emergency supplies and intermittent water and electricity provided by Israel. The intention is to maintain the siege on Gaza for a few weeks – not to defeat Hamas or to reoccupy the strip, but to pressure Hamas into agreeing to a compromise according to terms dictated by Abbas.

Associates of Abbas supporting his plan include Fatah old-timers Nabil Amar, Ahmed Abd Al-Rahman and Tayeb Abd Al-Rahim, as well as several Gazans who fled to Ramallah: Mohammed Dahlan, Rashid Abu Shabak and Samir Mashharawi. Members of the Fatah young guard, led by Barghouti, have reservations about the plan, but more important is the opposition to it by Ahmed Hilas, a Fatah leader in Gaza and rival to Dahlan who remained in the Gaza Strip together with a few other prominent Fatah members and has been holding talks with the Hamas leadership.
Those opposed to the Abbas plan claim he is surrounded by “advisers who are disconnected from reality,” in the words of Al-Quds Al-Arabi editor in chief Abd al-Bari Atwan. Abbas’ plan could lead to massive rocket attacks against Israel by a Hamas whose leadership believes it has nothing more to lose, and that a strong military response by Israel will only unite Gazans around it.

So Abbas will press for sanctions against the 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza, denying them water and electricity. That is expected to lead to Hamas attacks on Israel, which again will lead to a renewed Israeli all-out attack on Gaza.
Marshall Pétain Abbas and his Vichy government

Posted by: b | Jun 17 2007 9:46 utc | 41

I have to disagree with your position that the Palestinians have not fought back. they have been fighting since the beginning and have paid a very high price for their resistance. wrote Dan of Steele.
I agree …. these things are hard to judge, and the glib comparisons I made (eg. Algeria), are different times, territories, situations. I meant that it always looked like their resistance did not follow the classical examples one can think of.
Realistically, what could they do? And if the whole world media dismisses and disses and lies and fakes? I of course meant no slur on the Palestinians as passive and non fighters – which might be a compliment in another frame.
Of course they have paid a terrible price. And have fought as best they could.
The forces against them are so massive it is a wonder they are still up, acting and talking.
—-
this ‘boycott Israel’ site is very complete and informative.
link

Posted by: Noirette | Jun 17 2007 15:11 utc | 42

annie wrote:
all this talk of solutions is just talk
and:
eventually IS/US controls the ME, or israel ceases to exist
That is the endpoint, for sure. There are *only* those two possible outcomes.
The question is to what lengths will US/their Isr. outpost, the 51st. state, plus the Western and other allies and hangers on, determined (ex. GB), or sitting on the fence and postponing (ex. Brussels EU) or in la la land (ex. Poland) venture to support US..
Overall, it looks like they prefer bombing to hell, killing, chaos, genocide, over any negotiated trade -energy- agreements.

Posted by: Noirette | Jun 17 2007 15:14 utc | 43

From Noirette’s link (in post 42):

Intel are one of the biggest supporters of Israel. Their very first development centre outside the US was opened in Haifa in 1974. Since then they have continued pouring investment in to Israel. By year 2000 they employ over 4000 israelis. Exports from their Lachish-Qiryat Gat plant in israel (opened feb 99) total $ 3 million a day at peak capacity – approximately $ 1 billion a year.
Al-Awda (Palestine Right to Return Coalition) have pointed out that the Intel plant at”Qiryat Gat” is built on land Israel confiscated from the Palestinian villages of Iraq al Manshiya. Iraq al Manshiya was a village of 2000 people living in 300 houses with two mosques and one school. The original Palestinian inhabitants were terrorised out of the village and then the whole village was razed to the ground to prepare the way for the new israeli settlement of Qiryat Gat. Today the remaining population from Iraq al Manshiya is still not allowed to return.

____
The Boycott Israel Website is is very informative but needs updating. As I mentioned months ago here at MOA, Intel is now building one of its most advanced plants there.

Posted by: Rick | Jun 17 2007 15:54 utc | 44

one thing I will remember is 729 (from the barcode) It seems country of origin is no longer required making it hard to tell where something comes from when buying.
there was a problem some years ago with people injecting Jaffa grapefruits with acid and the end result was that those grapefruits were then branded something else and Produce from Israel disappeared from the box.
Slothrop will tell us that this is all futile anyway because with global economy you can’t really hurt the one you want to and will probably end up hurting someone who is already suffering.
I have always liked AMD chips anyway, now I have another reason to buy them.

Posted by: dan of steele | Jun 17 2007 16:55 utc | 45

Ominous new developments:
– Two rockets have been fired from Lebanon into northern Israel. According to an Israeli spokesperson they were fired by Palestinians. Who knows what really happened.
– Israeli troops have entered northern Gaza, and the army is preparing a full scale invasion if rockets continue to be fired from Gaza on southern Israel (these are different than today’s rockets from the north in Lebanon).

Deputy Defence Minister Ephrain Sneh said last night the tanks were positioned on the sites of two Jewish settlements dismantled in the unilateral withdrawal of 2005. “These are activities of a preventive character, for the moment we are not going on the offensive in the Gaza Strip,” he said.

– The sole supplier of petrol to Gaza, an Israeli company, has cut off the supply of petrol to Gaza.

As of Sunday, gasoline stations in Gaza no longer have a supplier to refill their tanks.

Posted by: Bea | Jun 17 2007 17:08 utc | 46

Frantic Gaza residents overrun stores in fear of imminent cutoff

Posted by: Bea | Jun 17 2007 17:17 utc | 47

Meanwhile…
Abbas forms new government without Hamas. Appoints a wealthy new Prime Minister, Salam Fayyad, who has long been the darling of the West. Perhaps we might consider him the Siniora [PM of Lebanon] of Palestine. Both have backgrounds in managing lots of money, as well as American educations (Fayyad holds a PhD in economics from the University of Texas; Siniora has an MBA from the American University of Beirut). Both are fluent in English. Just interesting.
The US announces it is lifting the boycott on this new government.
In an editorial in the Guardian, Peter Beaumont asks, “Which was the real coup? Hamas’s bloody attack on the violent gangsters allied to Fatah who have terrorised Gaza for a year? Or Abbas’s unconstitutional moves yesterday with America’s backing?”

Now, after the months of financial embargo of the Hamas-led government by the US and Europe, after the funding and propping up of Fatah’s President Mahmoud Abbas, after the slow, crushing squeeze on Palestinian society that encouraged its social disintegration, what have we got? Virtual civil war in Gaza, the polarisation of Palestinian society, a government dissolved by decree, and a new Prime Minister, Salam Fayyad, appointed with the explicit blessing of the US.

Posted by: Bea | Jun 17 2007 17:34 utc | 48

Uri Avneri has an analysis piece in Counterpunch, The Gaza Cage

WHAT HAPPENS when one and a half million human beings are imprisoned in a tiny, arid territory, cut off from their compatriots and from any contact with the outside world, starved by an economic blockade and unable to feed their families?
Some months ago, I described this situation as a sociological experiment set up by Israel, the United States and the European Union. The population of the Gaza Strip as guinea pigs.
This week, the experiment showed results. They proved that human beings react exactly like other animals: when too many of them are crowded into a small area in miserable conditions, they become aggressive, and even murderous. The organizers of the experiment in Jerusalem, Washington, Berlin, Oslo, Ottawa and other capitals could rub their hands in satisfaction. The subjects of the experiment reacted as foreseen. Many of them even died in the interests of science.
But the experiment is not yet over. The scientists want to know what happens if the blockade is tightened still further….
The American aim is clear. President Bush has chosen a local leader for every Muslim country, who will rule it under American protection and follow American orders. In Iraq, in Lebanon, in Afghanistan, and also in Palestine.
Hamas believes that the man marked for this job in Gaza is Mohammed Dahlan. For years it has looked as if he was being groomed for this position. The American and Israeli media have been singing his praises, describing him as a strong, determined leader, “moderate” (i.e. obedient to American orders) and “pragmatic” (i.e. obedient to Israeli orders). And the more the Americans and Israelis lauded Dahlan, the more they undermined his standing among the Palestinians…
How could the American and Israeli generals miscalculate so badly? They are able to think only in strictly military terms: so–and–so many soldiers, so–and–so many machine guns. But in interior struggles in particular, quantitative calculations are secondary. The morale of the fighters and public sentiment are far more important. The members of the Fatah organizations do not know what they are fighting for. The Gaza population supports Hamas, because they believe that it is fighting the Israeli occupier. Their opponents look like collaborators of the occupation. The American statements about their intention of arming them with Israeli weapons have finally condemned them.
That is not a matter of Islamic fundamentalism. In this respect all nations are the same: they hate collaborators of a foreign occupier, whether they are Norwegian (Quisling), French (Petain) or Palestinian.

Posted by: Bea | Jun 18 2007 0:18 utc | 49

Thank you for the great posts Bea!!
Hats off to Bea. Great job.

Posted by: Jake | Jun 18 2007 2:49 utc | 50

At this moment regarding the Palestinians, I can only think of the mockery that Israel and the U.S. has made of this.

Posted by: Rick | Jun 18 2007 3:39 utc | 51

thanks bea , really

Posted by: annie | Jun 18 2007 8:51 utc | 52

“and will follow american orders” – given on behalf of the G8 (20? 24? mmmm, 2 4)

Posted by: jcairo | Jun 18 2007 12:54 utc | 53