Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
June 25, 2007
Hunting For Cheney’s Head?

When Josh Marshall portrait Cheney in early 2003 he found him to be proven wrong on most the issues he touched. Marshall traced this back to a particular mentality:

Cheney is conservative, of course, but beneath his conservatism is something more important: a mindset rooted in his peculiar corporate-Washington-insider class. It is a world of men–very few women–who have been at the apex of both business and government, and who feel that they are unique in their mastery of both. Consequently, they have an extreme assurance in their own judgment about what is best for the country and how to achieve it. They see themselves as men of action.

[A]nyone who doesn’t agree gets ignored or, if need be, crushed. Muscle it through and when the results are in, people will realize we were right is the underlying attitude.

The current Washington Post series on Cheney (Part I, Part II, more to follow), has lots of interesting and sometimes breath taking anecdotes of Cheney’s and his consigliere Addington’s actions. They fit the analysis Marshall wrote four years ago.

Cheney sees himself not as the usual vice-president but as the president behind the president:

"He
had the understanding with President Bush that he would be — I’m just
going to use the word ‘surrogate chief of staff,’ " said Quayle, whose
membership on the Defense Policy Board gave him regular occasion to see
Cheney privately over the following four years.

Cheney
preferred, and Bush approved, a mandate that gave him access to "every
table and every meeting," making his voice heard in "whatever area the
vice president feels he wants to be active in," [White House Chief of
Staff] Bolten said.

Cheney and Addington are running circles around the law and around other players in the White House, especially Rice, Powell and Ashcroft. They are ruled down by the Supreme Court and get proven to be wrong again and again on policy issues. Still they push on.

Some parts of the WaPo reports seem to have been edited down to isolate Bush from the damage. Indeed the whole series could be subtitled "Blame Cheney not Bush."

People on and off the record, like torture advocate John Yoo, use their accounts to deflect some blame from themselves and onto the Cheney/Addington team.

The vice president’s lawyer advocated what was considered the memo’s most radical claim: that the president may authorize any interrogation method, even if it crosses the line of torture. U.S. and treaty laws forbidding any person to "commit torture," that passage stated, "do not apply" to the commander in chief, because Congress "may no more regulate the President’s ability to detain and interrogate enemy combatants than it may regulate his ability to direct troop movements on the battlefield."

That same day, Aug. 1, 2002, Yoo signed off on a second secret opinion, the contents of which have never been made public. According to a source with direct knowledge, that opinion approved as lawful a long list of specific interrogation techniques proposed by the CIA — including waterboarding, a form of near-drowning that the U.S. government classified as a war crime in 1947. The opinion drew the line against one request: threatening to bury a prisoner alive.

Yoo said for the first time in an interview that he verbally warned lawyers for the president, Cheney and Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld that it would be dangerous as a matter of policy to permit military interrogators to use the harshest techniques, because the armed services, vastly larger than the CIA, could overuse the tools or exceed the limits.

Still in total the series is a narrative of episodes that, taken together, are a good basis for a trial at the Hague.

One wonders to what planed effect such a broad assault, supported by many insider quotes, gets launched right now. Who is hunting for Cheney’s head here?

Comments

Maybe someone desperate to stop some utterly stupid and suicidal military/foreign policy decision, and who knows time is running short?

Posted by: CluelessJoe | Jun 25 2007 14:25 utc | 1

This article piece is about five years too god damned late, and further merely a masterful art piece that serves as propagenda, signifying nothing and therefore irrelevant.
About as irrelevant as act two, in the second half of the performance, in that, It is as fine a piece of centrist performance art as you will ever see.
The warpost, should save its pseudo indignation for important things, such as missing white girls, hit pieces and such, at least it is more believable.
And the faux outrage by the complicit party while many will fall for it, is laughable.
The point is, on some levels, it doesn’t matter at this juncture, because, this country is broken, and if they were to leave office or be put out, the damage they have brought about is beyond repair. So much so decades will not even begin to improve it.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Jun 25 2007 15:08 utc | 2

Laura Rozen offers some interesting analysis:

A veteran newspaper editor friend has some sharp observations about the Post Cheney piece:
A careful reading of the story of Cheney’s coup against a feeble executive reveals that paragraphs 7 through 10 were written and inserted in haste by a powerful editorial hand. The banging of colliding metaphors in an otherwise carefully written piece is evidence of last-minute interpolations by a bad editor whom no one has the power to rewrite.
. . . That in turn suggests that this piece has been ready to run for some time. Insertions like the one about the veep’s office not being part of the executive branch and seriatim “softenings” show that jamming it into the paper at the end of June, when only cats and the homeless are around the read the paper, was made at the last minute.
. . . A key element of the coup is also ignored: the role of the press as revealed in the Libby scandal … : Note in particular paragraph seven the phrase that Cheney’s subversive roles “went undetected.” The correct verb is “unreported.”
This series is a landscape of an internal war. Parts of it are still smoking and some reputations are visibly dying–anonymously, for the moment. The journalistic graves registration people will go in later and tag the corpses.

Posted by: small coke | Jun 25 2007 16:44 utc | 3

too damned sick to comment
but am with uncle – it is too late in the day for these johnny-come-latelies with their lofty morality which rest somewhere in the mud
in fact, i find it creepy – these scribes in suits or chatterers in their chinos – they have no right to say anything, anything at all
they are enablers of enablers & they merit the very sordid system they have given sustenance

Posted by: r’giap | Jun 25 2007 17:14 utc | 4

Though I accept the fact that “depth psychology” is not very much in favor these days (if indeed it ever was), I will argue that it has, on occasion, the undeniable virtue of going to the heart of the matter, and the heart of the matter, where Cheney is concerned, is Bush rather more than Cheney.
Let’s remember who’s President–and let’s not forget that Cheney tried, rather tentatively, to start up his own campaign for the Presidency in 1995. The Republicans–the owners, at least–have never held the man in much esteem, and his “campaign” (if in fact it ever became one) never turned anyone on, so he settled for what he now has.
Is it a matter of affect? Bush comes forth with some kind of blind fervor, and moves the folks to say “yes!” This is just fine with Cheney. And why? Because Cheney knows how to handle the Prince.
To put it in brutal terms: Bush is a creature of bloodlust and a torture-freak, and Cheney is a power-freak who knows how to please the Prince (I’ve never seen any sign that Cheney gets high on torture; it’s almost an abstraction for him, mostly a “means to an end”). Gonzales, of course, provided Bush with the very same service in Texas (with those 150 lost souls on death row). No wonder that Cheney and Gonzales prosper in the face of every revelation! They feed the habit of the junky, and the junky, who lives for his fix, knows this only too well. I think of them, in this context, as his indispensable “sex workers,” and nothing more.
I remember a drunk who once told me: “you can take everything I have, but you’ll never, never separate me from this” (he was holding a bottle of gin). And while Bush may, or may not, have put the cork in his own bottle of gin, the rest of us will never, ever, separate him from his other habit– from the craving, and the gratification, of his lust for blood. To make matters worse, we cannot claim that we didn’t see this process at work in his days as the Governor of Texas (Carla Faye Tucker is there for all to see).
But the day will come when we read the graphic, the appalling, testimony of those who, with their very own eyes and ears, have witnessed Bush as he ventilates and gratifies that bloodlust (talking directly to torturers on the telephone, for example). Yes, one day this day will come, but it will not come anytime soon, because witnesses are also voyeurs–a perversion not be proud of.
And what will we learn from this testimony?
Well, we traded a brilliant creature of lust (Bill Clinton) for a depraved creature of bloodlust (George Bush, whose record was there for all of us to see). It’s something to think about for a while, if only because these drives, which belong in some way to us all, are there to be recognized and dealt with–either to be affirmed, or else to be deferred, postponed, and kept in check.
Unacceptable, to the spirit of clarity at least, is any effort to deny or to minimize this situation–a very hard thing to do, given Bush’s skill at masking his deepest urges (even, as a concept, from himself–at refusing to accept them as his own).
This is so sick that it becomes downright interesting: even the most florid (and thickest) of Bush’s associates seem to be getting the idea that this man is poisoning their minds.
Except, perhaps, for Cheney: he’s so addicted to power that he’s happy to accept his own eventual ruin. As is also, apparently, Gonzales.
But when Bush is left to clear the brush on his “ranch,” and Cheney and Gonzales feel the unremitting lashes of a vengeful and undiscriminating public, Justice will not be served, because we are among those to whom this responsibility also belongs: by scapegoating Cheney and Gonzales (who have made their scapegoating impossible to avoid), we will not only let Bush off the hook, we will also absolve ourselves.

Posted by: alabama | Jun 25 2007 17:19 utc | 5

I’m not quite as bitter about the article/piece as Uncle is. When you add up the defects and moral bankruptcy of this administration, you can imagine that the charges at their tribunal will be numerous.
Uncle and r’giap, if you believe that some kind of moral coherence must prevail, then perhaps the Erinyes or Furies are just clearing their throats and beginning to stamp the ground. I only hope for all our sakes that the steps we begin to hear are not the deadly footfalls of Nemesis herself. I don’t know if the Post article represents false outrage, but whatever is overlooked (or unreported) I guess that the fundamental conspiracy between Bush and Cheney will not be neglected. The chatty story of intrigue in getting memos past the prying eyes of Powell and Rice, avoids the obvious–that the Office of the Vice President is joined to the cruel machinations of the president’s mind.
A broken nation can be repaired; but it will require more imagination than we have seen so far in the Washington Post. “The gods may act late; but once they do turn to action they come in full panoply and power.”
In Edward Hirsh’s new
Poet’s Choice I found this by Else Lasker-Schuler

MY BLUE PIANO
At home I have a blue piano.
But I can’t play a note.
It’s been in the shadow of the cellar door
Ever since the world went rotten.
Four starry hands play harmonies.
The Woman in the Moon sang in her boat.
Now only rats dance to the clanks.
The keyboard is in bits.
I weep for what is blue. Is dead.
Sweet angels, I have eaten
Such bitter bread. Push open
The door of heaven. For me, for now–
Although I am still alive–
Although it is not allowed.

Posted by: Copeland | Jun 25 2007 18:24 utc | 6

I, for one, do not have to absolve myself from anything. I have acted as a citizen to stop what has been going on. I live in a nation that is supposed to have a House of Reps that is responsive to the voters… and that surely hasn’t been the case. So how do I need to be absolved?
I have children. What is my greatest responsibility? To them. Why? Because I can live anywhere (theoretically) but will no longer bear children. Why should I feel responsible for an extremist right wing ideology that feeds off of stupidity? I don’t think we exist in the same universe (mine evolved, theirs came forth like Athena from the head of Zeus.) They hate me for being a godless traitor because I do not support their agenda or the Bush junta.
How am I responsible for those people? Why should I need to be absolved — because I didn’t break the law or become like those I detest (whether in the U.S. or other places…fundamentalists are fundamentalist, whatever name they call their patriarchal god?
I do not accept any guilt for Bush being in office. I did the responsible thing — voted for a democrat rather than split the liberal vote in 2000. I voted for Kerry while holding my nose. There is a difference between the two parties in some ways, but I’m also to the point at which I think that just as the right wing uses abortion, the left uses universal health care as a carrot while continuing to favor corporate health.
Deep psychology means we are forever guilty of one thing or another?? — that we are responsible for the actions of others that we totally disagree with, but with whom we happen to share some geography?
It is those who have sought elected office, supposedly to represent the people and protect and defend the constitution of the United States, who have failed me and the rest of the people in this nation, and it is they who are guilty in my eyes.
Collective guilt is collective punishment by other means.

Posted by: fauxreal | Jun 25 2007 18:25 utc | 7

@fauxreal
I am afraid I don’t share your complacency. When the government that represents US is committing massive war crimes to the point of patriacide, I believe we have a moral obligation to fight it by any means at our disposal — short, perhaps, of those that might jeopardize the lives of our children. I know I, for one, have failed miserably on that score. Have we taken to the streets in any significant numbers? Have we lobbied relentlessly to make our voices heard? Have we put our bodies on the line to make our fellow citizens aware of the slaughter that is being committed in our names? Have we refused to pay taxes to the government that is pouring our money into killing others in violation of all international norms and laws? Have we even tried to spread the awareness and knowledge that we gain here as far and as wide as we are capable of doing?
I know that I have not, and it haunts me daily. I do feel a moral obligation to do this. And I know that if the tables were turned, and Iraq had inflicted upon America what we have done to them, I would expect no less from Iraqis and from all the world.
As Mike Ferner recently wrote on Online Journal (and I posted a link on another thread):

If you are sitting down and possess a healthy imagination, try conjuring up similar conditions here in our land.
* Start with the fact that few people buy bottled water and what comes out of the tap is guaranteed to at least make you sick if not kill you.
* Three times as many of our fellow citizens are out of work as during the Great Depression.
* On a good day we have three or four hours of electricity to preserve food or cool the 110-degree heat.
* No proper hospitals or rehab clinics exist to help the wounded become productive members of society.
* Roads are a mess.
* Reports of birth defects from exposure to depleted uranium have begun surfacing around the country.
Reflect for a minute on the grief brought by a single loved one’s death. Then open your heart to the reality of life if we suffered casualties comparable to those endured by the people of Iraq.
* In the former cities of Atlanta, Denver, Boston, Seattle, Milwaukee, Fort Worth, Baltimore, San Francisco, Dallas and Philadelphia every single person is dead.
* In Vermont, Delaware, Hawaii, Idaho, Nebraska, Nevada, Kansas, Mississippi, Iowa, Oregon, South Carolina and Colorado every single person is wounded.
* The entire populations of Ohio and New Jersey are homeless, surviving with friends, relatives or under bridges as they can.
* The entire populations of Michigan, Indiana and Kentucky have fled to Canada or Mexico.
* Over the past three years, one in four U.S. doctors has left the country.
* Last year alone 3,000 doctors were kidnapped and 800 killed.
In short, nobody “out there” is coming to save us. We are in hell.

Posted by: Bea | Jun 25 2007 18:48 utc | 8

Here is a piece that expresses more of what I was trying to say in #8:
Amerca’s Guilty Silence
Objectively, the American public is much more responsible for the crimes committed in its name than were the people of Germany for the horrors of the Third Reich. We have far more knowledge, and far greater freedom and opportunity to stop our government’s criminal behavior.
But who is even asking the presidential candidates for their positions on torture and starving the Palestinians, or what they think of the respected study that found our war had killed as many as 665,000 Iraqis, as of almost two years ago?
Do we have any excuse for our abject failure to hold our leaders and ourselves responsible for our nation’s most heinous crimes?
If we cannot bring ourselves to say, “guilty,” then “innocent by reason of insanity” appears to be our only plausible defense before a future court of the world.
We will have to claim that our minds were not our own. The corporate media-government propaganda network had grown so ubiquitous that the people were essentially subjects in a mass brainwashing experiment. Unfortunately, the experiment was a success, so increasingly absurd versions of remanufactured reality were implanted in the public mind.
At the time, some of us complained about cover-ups, lies, all the things we weren’t being told by the media. But the public already knew too much, so our values had already been subverted to accommodate us to our national life of crime. In the reality we were fed, deceit could be virtuous, “terrorists” could destroy us, only leaders could understand the world, and, in “extreme” cases, the normal questions of morality did not apply. This is why we were silent while “our” government committed these terrible deeds.
The argument has some merit. The elites of this country invented modern propaganda almost a century ago. Today the immense power of corporate-political “opinion formation” that reaches the public mind is undeniable. We need to understand how much this system has undermined the public will and dehumanized our lives.
However, to the extent that we as individuals still possess free will and are responsible for our own values, we have no excuse for our mute acceptance of these and other national crimes against humanity. Don’t we pay for them with our taxes, continue them with our votes, and support them with our silence?

Posted by: Bea | Jun 25 2007 19:07 utc | 9

Via This Modern World, I read Arthur Silber found this catchy phrase in the resolution passed 411 to 2 by the House:
Whereas Iran has aggressively pursued a clandestine effort to arm itself with nuclear weapons…
WTF! It’s like they’re singing “Roll out the barrel…”

Posted by: Chuck Cliff | Jun 25 2007 19:11 utc | 10

From Bea-
Have we taken to the streets in any significant numbers? Have we lobbied relentlessly to make our voices heard? Have we put our bodies on the line to make our fellow citizens aware of the slaughter that is being committed in our names? Have we refused to pay taxes to the government that is pouring our money into killing others in violation of all international norms and laws? Have we even tried to spread the awareness and knowledge that we gain here as far and as wide as we are capable of doing?
well, yes. even the tax part, tho not in the way you mean, I’m sure. I even worked to “vote share” with someone in Florida in 2000, i.e. if they voted for Gore I would vote for Nader because their vote would count but mine would not (a state up for grabs vs one that was safely in one camp or another.)
If you feel guilty, then go out and do something, but don’t tell me I need to be absolved.
And when you feel disgusted by the lack of response, you’ll know how I feel. Yes, you do have a moral obligation. And as I said, I have done things to fulfill that obligation. And I will continue to do things, but I no longer expect anything to change by those actions. I do them because I think it is the right thing to do. I do not think that violent action is acceptable and will not, as I said, become those I oppose.
Maybe you speak for yourself and your own lack of action, but you do not speak for me and many others like me and it is highly insulting for those who have done things to hear others say that we need to be absolved for others’ actions or lack of.
Liberal guilt is a crock. Either do something or admit you profit from the misery of others.

Posted by: fauxreal | Jun 25 2007 19:17 utc | 11

@fauxreal
Actually, if you re-read the post carefully, I was writing more about my own feelings and failings rather than telling you you needed to be absolved of anything or making any comment on you. I don’t even know you; how could I pass judgment on you?
I am sorry you took this as insulting. It was not intended as such at all.

Posted by: Bea | Jun 25 2007 19:36 utc | 12

okay, but since you began a post with “I don’t share your complacency” that might lead someone to assume that you are assuming her/his complacency – when the issue, in fact, is that not all Americans have acted or thought in the same way.
the post went on to use “we” rather than “I” to ask a series of questions and linked to a post called “America’s Guilty Silence,” so pardon me if I assumed you were assigning collective guilt.

Posted by: fauxreal | Jun 25 2007 20:07 utc | 13

Remember, folks, the Vice President has *no authority* vested by the Constitution except to break a tie vote in the Senate.
He does not even occupy a place in the chain of command: his only duty is to replace the President should he die in office.
Any power that Cheney wields is granted to him by the President and the President alone, anything he does (or refuses to do as required by law) can be directly ascribed to his Commander-in-Chief.

Posted by: ralphieboy | Jun 25 2007 20:37 utc | 14

If clarity comes at all, it comes one step at a time….
Let us note that the series in the WaPo pictures Cheney as the man of action–the busy conspirator in a scene of busy intrigue. By contrast, the President comes across as a rather passive, slightly clueless figure, diligently and effectively worked upon.
Now it’s certainly true that Cheney is an active manipulator, and that Bush is notoriously shiftless and incurious–indifferent to the details of almost everything. In ways that everyone sees, the man is massively passive.
But in ways not so readily seen, the man is not passive at all. He makes his wishes known, and those who fulfill them are rewarded, while those who cannot, or will not, are promptly purged from the scene.
And yet, while we may not see this or hear this happen, we know that indeed it happens, and happens all the time. It goes, in a sense, without saying.
What, then are his wishes–the ones he makes known to those who serve him so well? These I’ve described in the post above, and it’s to these that we must attend.
We must, to the best of our ability, keep our attention fixed on the malignant, twisted perversity of our President–study the furnace of his murderous mind and heart. And then we must also ask, to the extent that the question can be asked at all, why and how we have accepted this twisted man for so long.
To the extent that the WaPo series distracts our attention from the President–or, more precisely, to the extent that we let it distract our attention from the President–we have not, to my thinking, addressed the most pressing question of all, namely: why do we let ourselves be distracted in this way–undeniably plausible as the series may certainly be?

Posted by: alabama | Jun 25 2007 22:39 utc | 15

you know Unc’l$, your rhetoric totally strikes home. Yeah, why? I’ve asked that question even before I knew the towers collapsed when my USAF mind set said where the hell were the interceptors?
And we’ve all been thru this MANY times since then and it always comes back to “yeah, we each keep do’in what is we feel competent to do, and hope it’s helping”.
You’re do’in it bro, and you’ve been do’in it for so long and consistently that I tend to take you for granted. And that goes for b, DM, Faux, beq, Bea, r’giap, slothrop, mono, CP etc., etc. and on and on.
And again I thank y’all. About the most I can offer among y’all giants but thanks anyway. You sure help to keep me awake in this muck we’re all in wallowing in. That is when I’m not in this condition.
There’s gotta be hope.

Posted by: Juannie | Jun 26 2007 0:24 utc | 16

fauxreal – when you made the following stmt in #11 — “I do not think that violent action is acceptable and will not, as I said, become those I oppose” — were those two nots supposed to be linked somehow? that violence is never acceptable as a tactic because the victim(s) is/are then no better than the perpetrator(s)? that’s how it reads to me. if so, it’s a fatally flawed argument/stance/dismissal, and one that may be worth examining/debunking in greater detail at some point. (no need to take this comment as a personal affront; i’m only responding to the specific words/ideas encapsulated in that one stmt on the screen which, IMO, should not go unchallenged.)

Posted by: b real | Jun 26 2007 3:46 utc | 17

maybe the stmt cannot be taken out of the context it was embedded in, though i still find it flawed thinking.

Posted by: b real | Jun 26 2007 3:50 utc | 18

Part III: A Strong Push From Back Stage about Cheney managing domestic, economic legislation.
His typical way to oüperate:

Cheney and Greenspan met regularly, far more often than the Fed chief met with Bush, according to interviews and Greenspan’s calendar. And when the president did meet with Greenspan, Cheney was nearly always in the room.
The vice president and the Fed chairman had formed a close bond when both served in the Ford administration. The Fed chief saw the vice president as a conduit to a president he did not know nearly as well, someone he could trust to fairly present his views to Bush.
So Greenspan sent Cheney a study by one of the central bank’s senior economists showing that big deficits lead to higher long-term interest rates, according to a person with firsthand knowledge. Higher rates, Greenspan believed, would wipe out any short-term benefit from a tax cut.
In subsequent meetings with the Fed chief, Cheney never took issue with the study. What Greenspan did not know was that, behind the scenes, the vice president took steps to undermine an argument that could threaten the big tax cut he favored. Conda, the vice president’s aide, said Cheney asked him to critique the study. Conda attached his own memo arguing that the Fed’s analytical model was flawed. He said “it wasn’t my job to know” what Cheney did with the paperwork, but noted that Greenspan’s study did not gain traction inside the White House.

Posted by: b | Jun 26 2007 6:15 utc | 19

b @#19
Wasn’t it Cheney who said: Reagan taught us that deficits don’t matter. So should we infer that it was Cheney who convinced Greenspan that low interest rates / a housing bubble was just the ticket?

Posted by: Hamburger | Jun 26 2007 9:29 utc | 20

By the way, here is an interesting trial balloon floated by Sally Quinn / Mrs. Ben Bradlee in today’s WaPo:
A GOP Plan To Oust Cheney
in which she claims that GOPers are suggesting that the “Ford and Reagan-like” Fred Thompson would be the suitable new VP to be installed when Cheney’s upcoming operation to replace the pacemaker battery takes place.

Posted by: Hamburger | Jun 26 2007 9:38 utc | 21

Big Pravda-on-the-Potomac art. by Sally Quinn today calling for Idiot-in-Chief to replace Pres. Cheney (when he goes in for his bypass replacement this summer) w/Fred Thompson. Guess he’s the most like Gerry Ford.
The big question right now among Republicans is how to remove Vice President Cheney from office. Even before this week’s blockbuster series in The Post, discontent in Republican ranks was rising.
As the reputed architect of the war in Iraq, Cheney is viewed as toxic, and as the administration’s leading proponent of an attack on Iran, he is seen as dangerous. As long as he remains vice president, according to this thinking, he has the potential to drag down every member of the party — including the presidential nominee — in next year’s elections.
Removing a sitting vice president is not easy, but this may be the moment. I remember Barry Goldwater sitting in my parents’ living room in 1973, in the last days of Watergate, debating whether to lead a group of senior Republicans to the White House to tell President Nixon he had to go. His hesitation was that he felt loyalty to the president and the party. But in the end he felt a greater loyalty to his country, and he went to the White House.
Today, another group of party elders, led by Sen. John Warner of Virginia, could well do the same. They could act out of concern for our country’s plummeting reputation throughout the world, particularly in the Middle East.
A GOP Plan To Oust Cheney

Posted by: jj | Jun 26 2007 9:42 utc | 22

I was working on my clip just as prev. poster was weighing in…

Posted by: jj | Jun 26 2007 9:44 utc | 23

The Republicans would never do anything as blatant as staging a palace coup against Cheney. But if they can exert enough pressure, then he will suddenly develop some health problems that cause him to step down prematurely.
But I think that they realize that Cheney would still be a threat no matter wherever he is shuted off to.

Posted by: ralphieboy | Jun 26 2007 11:41 utc | 24

But if they can exert enough pressure, then he will suddenly develop some health problems that cause him to step down prematurely.
That’s what I understood Quinn to be suggesting, ralphieboy.
I.e., that the Rethugs are so desperate to prevent a next election total blowout/destruction of the GOP (heh, heh), that they’d even get up the nerve to “pressure” Cheney (or, hey, maybe his doctors, yeah, that’s it!) to take an early medical retirement about the time the surgery is due and in the news, in which case they’d need to have pre-selected the replacement that in their thinking had a chance of restoring some semblance of credibility (e.g., bland, affable Thompson) to the party and a chance to get another Rethug elected to Preznit, doomed to complete failure, of course, but, as I say, they see the writing on the wall and are desperate.

Posted by: Hamburger | Jun 26 2007 12:07 utc | 25

HH,
I suppose they could just start ordering him a steady stream of fried chicken, hamburgers and pepperoni pizzas, it’d have the same effect…

Posted by: ralphieboy | Jun 26 2007 13:48 utc | 26

Cheney won’t bite, esp now that Quinn-Bradley has publicized it, unless they make it one of those “offers he can’t refuse.” He would certainly try to do a little more damage, in the Grand Plan way, before he is gone.

Posted by: small coke | Jun 26 2007 14:35 utc | 27

But don’t forget, Cheney can always move back over to the commercial side of the military-industrial complex and continue to wreak havoc.

Posted by: ralphieboy | Jun 26 2007 15:48 utc | 28

Re my post @20:

It’s a credit bubble, not a”housing bubble”, and as the air has gone out of that balloon the torch has been passed to the professional speculator who shows up in commercial real estate, hedge funds, and private equity. It’s amazing how this bubble has changed its spots over the past few years. It also makes it more dangerous, because we have a new bubble on top of the older bubble. The new bubble has masked the damage of the older bubble, so we’ll end up with both deflating at the same time, which could be quite spectacular.

Cheney can always move back over to the commercial side of the military…
Things might not be looking so good for Big Dick even over there.

Posted by: Hamburger | Jun 26 2007 16:17 utc | 29

No need for Rethugs to be so desperate. Hasn’t anyone told them Sen. Feinstein & Rep. Rush Holt are working hard, w/support of MoveOn & People for the (Un)American Way, to make it illegal to have non-rigged elections. (see MarkcrispinMiller & Bradblog)

Posted by: jj | Jun 26 2007 18:06 utc | 30

b real- I’m speaking for myself at this time. no one else. however, I do think that acts of violence against the state are to the benefit of the state, not the person’s cause who does something, no matter how just the cause. — except when the state physically attacks you. then it’s self-defense.
maybe things will be different in some future. I hope not.
in the past I reacted with my lizard brain when I was mugged and I fought back. Pure adrenaline and self-defense. When my kids were born I had a new feeling…a feeling that I would definitely hurt anyone who tried to hurt my child… this was after childbirth and it was a “feral” sort of response, if that makes sense.. or more lizard brain response.
I understand the anguish of the Palestinians from the perspective of their view of the suffering of those they love. However, as a people or group, I think they would have shamed Israel in the face of the entire world into a settlement by now if they had disavowed suicide bombings. But those actions (as in what I said about the state, above) give others a reason to justify continued inhumanity. That situation is probably way too complex to talk about so simply because religion and colonialism and fear are raw in that situation (for whacko American fundie christians, too, who support the destruction of the mosque sitting above the wailing wall… a sick, sick, sick way of looking at the world.)
Ghandi and MLK accomplished their goals by nonviolence. And of course they both lost their lives for their work, so violence was put upon them, even if they did not practice it themselves. However, without King, I don’t think the civil rights movement would have been successful. If African-Americans had fought back, they would have given the racists a justification for further oppression. Instead, the eyes of the world saw Bull Connor attacking non-violent people. People were arrested at lunch counters and others took their places and the world saw that these people in their nice clothes were doing nothing other than expecting to sit at a counter and order food.
That’s where my ideas about “do not and will not” come from.
If you alienate the middle class in the U.S, you cannot win. fact. — or you win only by oppression, so, to me, you lose.
If you had foreknowledge of Hitler, and could go back in time then, yes, it would be easy to say, of course it’s moral to kill him. But if you lived in that time, or if I did, rather, with no foreknowledge, I wouldn’t have thought such an action was moral until a major tipping point… and by that time the state apparatus of control (and civilian sector help) would have made such actions difficult if not impossible.
if I had been living in the Warsaw ghetto….then, yes, violence was entirely justified because death was a near-certainty anyway, so you might as well take out as many of them as you can and maybe even escape.
but there are all sorts of difficult situations I cannot answer… like, if I were a CIA agent, etc., would it be moral to take out (via “natural” death) someone who condones torture and who doesn’t give a crap about the constitution while holding such power? — I don’t know. — or what about soldiers who are charged to protect and defend the constitution? — I don’t know. If there are legal grounds, then I would wholeheartedly support Cheney’s arrest and trial.
But at the level of individual citizen, I think it would be wrong to try to harm him or any other person who is a part of the govt. (or anyone else, for that matter.) our entire system is built upon the idea of rule of law. If you become judge and executioner, you are outside the law and violate the idea you claim to uphold. The exception for me is self-defense from a direct physical attack.

Posted by: fauxreal | Jun 26 2007 21:54 utc | 31

…and all that said, here is yet one more indication of a govt. gone wrong.
FBI tells university that students involved in technical research should not have foreign spouses, friends, or take trips overseas without reporting them to the University authorities. (this info is in the pdf below. the boston globe article, here, is much more about stealing research while traveling abroad.) — while the FBI says it wants to train administrators and professors on what to look for, the pdf below is much more insidious.
US university students will not be able to work late at the campus, travel abroad, show interest in their colleagues’ work, have friends outside the United States, engage in independent research, or make extra money without the prior consent of the authorities, according to a set of guidelines given to administrators by the FBI.
a pdf of the FBI’s instructions

Posted by: fauxreal | Jun 26 2007 22:26 utc | 32

@fauxreal #32
Wow, that sends chills down my spine. Where did you get that PDF?

Posted by: Bea | Jun 26 2007 22:49 utc | 33

from the second link

Posted by: fauxreal | Jun 26 2007 23:15 utc | 34

@fauxreal
Definitely very creepy.

Posted by: Bea | Jun 27 2007 0:06 utc | 35

Part IV – Environment: Leaving No Tracks

Law and science seemed to be on the side of the fish. Then the vice president stepped in.
First Cheney looked for a way around the law, aides said. Next he set in motion a process to challenge the science protecting the fish, according to a former Oregon congressman who lobbied for the farmers.
Because of Cheney’s intervention, the government reversed itself and let the water flow in time to save the 2002 growing season, declaring that there was no threat to the fish. What followed was the largest fish kill the West had ever seen, with tens of thousands of salmon rotting on the banks of the Klamath River.
Characteristically, Cheney left no tracks.

Posted by: b | Jun 27 2007 5:21 utc | 36