Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
May 22, 2007
The Violent U.S. Character

It’s quite short of historic perspective as it keeps up a tale of "good Americans" before GWB, but the piece hits a nail which, to my utter shame, even I usually avoid to hit directly:

[T]here’s a deeper reason why the popular impeachment movement has never taken off — and it has to do not with Bush but with the American people. Bush’s warmongering spoke to something deep in our national psyche. The emotional force behind America’s support for the Iraq war, the molten core of an angry, resentful patriotism, is still too hot for Congress, the media and even many Americans who oppose the war, to confront directly. It’s a national myth. It’s John Wayne. To impeach Bush would force us to directly confront our national core of violent self-righteousness — come to terms with it, understand it and reject it. And we’re not ready to do that.
[…]
Bush tapped into a deep American strain of fearful, reflexive bellicosity, which Congress and the media went along with for a long time and which has remained largely unexamined to this day. Congress, the media and most of the American people have yet to turn decisively against Bush because to do so would be to turn against some part of themselves.
Why Bush hasn’t been impeached

Comments

slothrop citing cordesman
why don’t you go the full hog & cite bill cristol as an inimeachable source
really

Posted by: remembereringgiap | May 27 2007 21:30 utc | 201

it’s from a poll, rgiap. as in scientific poll.

Posted by: slothrop | May 27 2007 21:35 utc | 202

iit’s published in the times, the new york times

Posted by: remembereringgiap | May 27 2007 21:48 utc | 203

bill kristol is quite good at polls too, scientific polls

Posted by: remembereringgiap | May 27 2007 21:51 utc | 204

off topic?

Posted by: jcairo | May 27 2007 21:55 utc | 205

polls, scientific polls

Posted by: remembereringgiap | May 27 2007 21:56 utc | 206

i think it will get worse whenever the US leaves. it is inevitable. then it will get better.
Soldier: We’re just ‘putting a Band-Aid’ on Iraq until we leave
Safstrom rejects the contention made by made war supporters that if Americans leave to early, the country will descend into chaos. “If we stayed here for 5, even 10 more years, the day we leave here these guys will go crazy,” he told the IHT. “It would go straight into a civil war. That’s how it feels, like we’re putting a Band-Aid on this country until we leave here.”

Posted by: annie | May 27 2007 21:57 utc | 207

i’ve b een reading. meditating. & it came to me – that slothrop is our richard the lll

Posted by: remembereringgiap | May 27 2007 23:49 utc | 208

i’ve b een reading. meditating. & it came to me – that slothrop is our richard the lll

Posted by: remembereringgiap | May 27 2007 23:49 utc | 209

Not too surprisingly, Pat Lang exposes “Administrative Incompetence” for what it is – Deliberate & Hard-earned:
Patrick Lang told a hilarious story the other night, for example, about a job interview he had with Douglas Feith, a key architect of the invasion of Iraq.
It was at the beginning of the first Bush term. Lang had been in charge of the Middle East, South Asia and terrorism for the Defense Intelligence Agency in the 1990s. Later he ran the Pentagon’s worldwide spying operations.
In early 2001, his name was put forward as somebody who would be good at running the Pentagon’s office of special operations and low-intensity warfare, i.e., counterinsurgency. Lang had also been a Green Beret, with three tours in South Vietnam.
One of the people he had to impress was Feith, the Defense Department’s number three official and a leading player in the clique of neoconservatives who had taken over the government’s national security apparatus.
Lang went to see him, he recalled during a May 7 panel discussion at the University of the District of Columbia.
“He was sitting there munching a sandwich while he was talking to me,” Lang recalled, “which I thought was remarkable in itself, but he also had these briefing papers — they always had briefing papers, you know — about me.
“He’s looking at this stuff, and he says, ‘I’ve heard of you. I heard of you.’
“He says, ‘Is it really true that you really know the Arabs this well, and that you speak Arabic this well? Is that really true? Is that really true?’
“And I said, ‘Yeah, that’s really true.’
“That’s too bad,” Feith said.
The audience howled.
“That was the end of the interview,” Lang said. “I’m not quite sure what he meant, but you can work it out.”
Feith, of course, like the administration’s other Israel-connected hawks, didn’t want “Arabists” like Lang muddying the road to Baghdad, from where — according to the Bush administration theory — overthrowing Saddam Hussein would ignite mass demands for Western-style, pro-U.S. democracies across the entire Middle East.
Pat Lang & Lawrence Wilkerson Share Nightmare Encounters with Feith, Wolfowitz, and Tenet

Posted by: jj | May 28 2007 0:36 utc | 210

“Go, gentleman, every man unto his charge
Let not our babbling dreams affright our souls:
Conscience is but a word that cowards use,
Devised at first to keep the strong in awe:
Our strong arms be our conscience, swords our law.
March on, join bravely, let us to’t pell-mell
If not to heaven, then hand in hand to hell.”
Richard II, Act 5, Scene 3

Posted by: Copeland | May 28 2007 1:03 utc | 211

Richard III, that is to say

Posted by: Copeland | May 28 2007 1:07 utc | 212

copeland
yes, the old bugger shakespeare knew well that we could sleep well if it were not for these bad dreams

Posted by: remembereringgiap | May 28 2007 1:09 utc | 213

The U.S. can stay in Iraq as long as it wishes — if it (as it must) is willing to conform to procedure established over the course of the past 4 years. It must be willing to match the escalation of hostile forces with an escalation of its own (surge), it must be willing to accept an ever increasing number of casualties, it must be willing to expend a proportional amount more of treasure in the effort, and it also must be willing to suffer whatever domestic/political consequences follow. It must then be willing to at least triple the proportion of all the above to have any chance in hell to bring police state security to the important elements of the country. And then it must be also willing to maintain such expenditures for an indeterminate amount of time all the while knowing that the lid could still blow the moment they step back.
Anybody in their right mind can see that the slope of diminishing returns has long ago been eclipsed for any practical real world world solution to work. The ongoing escalation of U.S. troops only serve only to illustrate the obvious corresponding rise in resistance attacks, costing more money, and taking more casualties. Period. For some unknown reason the PTB in Washington can’t wrap their little brains around the fact that the whole escapade has been hopelessly lost for a long time now. Lets hope the surge makes that apparent even to them because the fumes of hubris that still keep it all going are’nt smelling so sweet anymore.

Posted by: anna missed | May 28 2007 5:12 utc | 214

in the 2004 US election 40% didn’t bother to vote and about 1/2 of those that did, voted for the Chimp-in-charge – again
is this not 70% approval, tacit or otherwise, of the violent tendencies of the government? (not that a TeamD win would have changed much)
look at that laundry list of non imperialist, non violent activities again and then add Smedley’s career as “the muscle for Wall Street” which began bringing Freedom & Democracy to the Phillipines in 1898…

Posted by: jcairo | May 28 2007 7:26 utc | 215

.S. Troops — irrelevant, the realization on the ground.

Posted by: anna missed | May 28 2007 10:30 utc | 216

late in the day..
About divide and rule and some of the disc above, slothrop’s opinion amongst others; I too saw partition as a likely aim even before the invasion, everyone was talking about it. When the looting was going on I thought, so that is that.
Looking up, as I promised, Iraqi agriculture (previous disc., working on it)..
I learnt that the Ministry of Agri. was thrashed, totally wrecked, -there are some pix, plenty of the rebuilding- as were all seed banks (!) as well as many other agricultural facilities – vets, research stations, etc.
Today, there is no minister of Agriculture listed in the official USGV website in this week’s round up. They don’t have a web site, there is no one to contact (I was going to e mail them if poss.)
Basically, that ministry has not been functioning at all. FAO stats, for ex. in the main stop in 2002-3, they have no one to talk to and can’t use USDA or USAID bulletins or round ups. In effect, the central aspects of agri. were destroyed, farmers were left on their own, and as far as I can see (despite the recent hand over – the Ministry is since a few days back under Iraqi control, whatever that means) has done nothing since 2003.
The destruction was obviously intended (allowed if one prefers), as shown by subsequent actions which all went the way of the ‘clean sweep.’ The US refurbished the offices, helped to burn the trash – the remaining files-, and installed new furniture – the office in a box program or some such.
There were, overall, two forces at work: the one for a smooth takeover, a united country (it IS easier to control in many ways), the hearts and flowers were not just cosmetic frills for the US public, they did correspond to the intent of many – and the Iraqis believed as well, they imagined their lives as becoming their present lives with the strictures of Saddam removed and some ‘freedoms’, such as free press/tv, the right to assembly and political parties, call it ‘modernity’, added on.
They would keep their jobs, the food basket, their homes, all would stay the same but they would be cooler, happier, unafraid, and might have more oppos, more rights, more scope, etc. (In fact, Saddam was not cruel to individual entrepreneurs, his economic policies were simply pragmatic, egalitarian in a large part, within his absolute personal control framework.)
The second force was, is, completely destructive, set on, lets say, a kind of genocide, or more mildly, razing for renewal. The two intertwine, become confused.
In unstable, chaotic situations, the destructive forces tend to prevail. They are often simply stronger, as disruption and mayhem are easy to create, and control is much tougher to implement.
The fractioning of Iraq was created by Bremer, by the new illegal constitution, by the gutting of the previous system to replace it with jockeying between ethnic-religious groups, regions (territories defined according to the characteristic of ppl who live there coupled with some territorial matters, oil) in Iraq, lobbies, interest groups, mafiosis who slavered at the destruction, dreaming of something similar to the USSR, and from the US, milking the US tax payer (Halliburton etc.) to use the US soldiers as agents of control and repression.
Bremer summarily closed about 200 functioning enterprises – simply because they sold to the State! So no more buses were constructed. (Say.)
Cultural artifacts are worth money. They were destroyed in the mad scramble, and cannily stolen for sale. But the US did not care about this aspect, contrary to the Germans, say (ww2), who attributed sentimental and monetary value to artifacts, precious stuff, art. The US wanted Mc Donalds on every corner and any thrashing was good.
(i only skimmed parts of the posts above)

Posted by: Noirette | May 28 2007 16:57 utc | 217

The destruction was obviously intended (allowed if one prefers)
explain how this connects to divide & rule? the only semi-plausible explanation offered by no one here yet, is the u.s. permitted looting in order to force a redistribution harming baathists. perhaps. we only have anecdotal info so far.
Saddam was not cruel to individual entrepreneurs, his economic policies were simply pragmatic, egalitarian
this afaik is untrue. his patronage systems hampered development, and this worsened after sanctions.
The fractioning of Iraq was created by Bremer
in the account of chandrasekaran, for ex., bremmer and cpa had no consciousness of interreligious animus, or even that such conflict could be cultivated strategically. while it’s true the cpa exacerbated tensions by dividing bureaucratic labors along sectarian lines, what else could be done to redress three decades of sunni-baathist institutional domination?
Bremer summarily closed about 200 functioning enterprises – simply because they sold to the State!
again, this was not aimed to divide & rule, but to create the neoliberal lala land seen in bremmer’s head.

Posted by: slothrop | May 28 2007 17:24 utc | 218

what is needed here to support the view looting was intended by occupation is a rigorous documentation commensurate w/ the one provided by chandrasekaran/ricks/fisk–interviews with principals and original research.

Posted by: slothrop | May 28 2007 17:27 utc | 219

slothrop
you have been laid low by your lack of any real or substantial evidence for your position
a bad book, insubstantial study & an article by robert fisk do not a position make
i will not continue further with this debate with you because you are like some evangilical incapable or listening or reading – the many texts that have been suggested
there is no rigorous documentation on your position. you have provided it sometimes on other threads but not here. not at all.
until you bring that evidence to the thread i will not engage

Posted by: remembereringgiap | May 28 2007 17:50 utc | 220

yeah, we need rigorous documentation to support the view election fraud has taken place, we may get it one of these days. election fraud doesn’t happen once we have rigorous documentation. nonetheless, anyone looking at events and statistics can reasonably assume any other conclusion is fantastical.
in conclusion to your assertions sloth, it is only you who needs rigorous documentation, those of us in the reality based community don’t have to be hit over the head w/a sledgehammer to have irrationality knocked out of us.

Posted by: annie | May 28 2007 17:53 utc | 221

way to close off debate. it’s what people do when they suck.
jusdt fork over the testimony you have hiding in your bureau drawer, the little note next to the amylnitrate caps and handcuffs, that says: “it was well known that cpa staffers and military wanted the looting…”
whip it out.

Posted by: slothrop | May 28 2007 18:01 utc | 222

i’ll do that when you get off yr ass a little & start reading the arab press, when you commence to acknowledge there is a scholarship outside your country & language & use the multitutde of books in either german french or italian even spanish that are available on this illegal & immoral imperial war. point.

Posted by: remembereringgiap | May 28 2007 18:19 utc | 223

i’ll do that when you get off yr ass a little & start reading the arab press, when you commence to acknowledge there is a scholarship outside your country & language & use the multitutde of books in either german french or italian even spanish that are available on this illegal & immoral imperial war. point.

Posted by: remembereringgiap | May 28 2007 18:19 utc | 224

“it was well known that cpa staffers and military wanted the looting…”
If they didn’t they would have stopped it — they DID STOP the looting where they had direct/long term interests (oil&intelligence).

Posted by: anna missed | May 28 2007 18:21 utc | 225

honestly, your ruthless inductive “logic” in which you find proof of your overarching theory of “empire” (read: u.s. hate) from very selective phenomena, is no different than the way rightwing knuckleheads think about the world. they have to think this way because their logic guards them continuously from the embarrassment of contradiction.

Posted by: slothrop | May 28 2007 18:48 utc | 226

anna missed
definitely. but this fact doesn’t at all explain what benefit the occupation would derive from looting.

Posted by: slothrop | May 28 2007 18:50 utc | 227

Following the looting many U.S. officials excused it as anger&payback at Saddams regime. This line of reasoning is consistent with a motive (by the U.S.) to allow, encourage or facilitate looting, to be able to portray it as retribution against the former regime. And it also consistent with the intent to completely wipe clean/restructure the functions of ministries. Except the ones holding vital information to be used by the occupation. With Bremmer replacing Garner there must have been a parallel decision (and orders) the former functioning of ministries were of no interest to the occupation (since they had in mind to dismantle their operation anyway) and the looting could be portrayed/propagandized as a uniform rejection of everything Saddams regime had stood for. A double +.

Posted by: anna missed | May 28 2007 19:01 utc | 228

faced with the wall to wall bullshit in the empire’s valet media. i do not have to engage it here. & i won’t.
your whole claim of international capital, of the ‘innocence’ of the empire’s war criminals & your complete & utter incapacity to hear anything other than your thin reed of a voice is simply so much bullshit for me.
i won’t engage it
your voice has become so similar to a bill kristol or an andré glucksmann – it angers me to witness it here

Posted by: remembereringgiap | May 28 2007 19:02 utc | 229

well, don’t sulk off now. just support your claims. that’s all.

Posted by: slothrop | May 28 2007 19:09 utc | 230

find proof of your overarching theory of “empire” (read: u.s. hate) from very selective phenomena
Sure, 700 bases in foreign countries are selective phenomena.
Planing Global Strikes is a very selective phenomena of empire.
Being the biggest debtor nation ever is a selective phenomena …

Posted by: b | May 28 2007 19:11 utc | 231

you need to believe the u.s. intended the looting because if this claim is untrue (which it is, so far) then the cornerstone of you theory of empire (“the violent american character”; all america does ius subject the earth’s people to servile domination in the final support of american capitalism (apparently, not the pretty capitalism seen on bucolic french postcards)) totally collapses.
either way, the truth here doesn’t harm my leftist politics.

Posted by: slothrop | May 28 2007 19:14 utc | 232

this fact doesn’t at all explain what benefit the occupation would derive from looting.
you’re kidding me right? check out the propaganda advantages alone.
KANAN MAKIYA: I suppose a shock was to realize just how rundown the city had been allowed to become by the Ba’ath. I thought of the Ba’ath as a modernizing force, an ugly, brutal, deformed kind of modernity, but modernizing nonetheless. And here I entered a city that was ramshackle, broken apart, buildings cracking at the seams, filthy, smelling garbage on the streets. It just– it was– it was– it was tragic. There was a true sense of dilapidation everywhere.
that is a warm up to prove what a tool this guy is, no mention of the sanctions, natch
NARRATOR: On top of the dilapidation came post-war looting.
KANAN MAKIYA: When you take the lid off of a repressive system of 30 years in the making and you don’t have an alternative law-and-order system to replace it, the population went wild.
……
KANAN MAKIYA: And the American officials who were up there on the platform were on the edge of losing control of the meeting because they didn’t have answers. The central fact on everybody’s mind was the lawlessness that had taken place, the anarchy, the breakdown.
MARTIN SMITH: Looting was going on as the meeting took place.
KANAN MAKIYA: Looting. And authority was needed– here, now, immediately, instantly.
NARRATOR: Kanan Makiya has been involved for over 10 years with an Iraqi exile opposition group dedicated to the overthrow of Saddam Hussein. We followed him to their new Baghdad headquarters.

now, check out the link to see the company this guy keeps, this is a well oiled machine.
jusdt fork over the testimony you have hiding…..it was well known that cpa staffers and military wanted the looting
it is irrelevant! the cpa staffers didn’t even have to know nor did the majority of th military, they just had to follow orders, which did not include protecting anything other than oil, MOI. which to me spells, money and death squads!!

Posted by: annie | May 28 2007 19:14 utc | 233

With Bremmer replacing Garner there must have been a parallel decision (and orders) the former functioning of ministries were of no interest to the occupation
based on what chandrasekaran and ricks say, the policy was neolib shock therapy, not divide & rule.
but, as i said, the “redistribution” angle seems up to this point the only pklausible evidence we have. but it’s only anecdotally supported.

Posted by: slothrop | May 28 2007 19:21 utc | 234

here’s a bit more weak support for anna missed. from a. cockburn’s rummy book:

On May 15, Bremer showed his staff a draft of a second order. This one abolished the Iraqi army, thereby ensuring that some 400,000 men, all of them with military training and most having access to weapons and explosives, were suddenly on the street with nothing to lose and a very strong grudge against the occupation. Not surprisingly, the origins of this edict are somewhat murky. In his memoir of his year in Iraq, Bremer wrote that this decree had also been under discussion by Feith and others before he left Washington.”
The assertion is strange, because just ten days before the war, on March 10, there had been a full dress briefing for President Bush at the White House to discuss the plan for postwar Iraq. Most of the presentation was prepared and delivered by Frank Miller, the senior NSC defense aide. But when it came to the section dealing with the future of the Iraqi military, Rumsfeld had insisted beforehand that such matters were the prerogative of the Defense Department and should therefore be briefed by someone from the Pentagon. Accordingly, Feith took the slides already prepared by Miller, had them stamped with the Pentagon logo, and read them to the president at the briefing. They laid out in precise detail how the Iraqi army would be kept intact and be used to provide security after the war.
“So what happened?” wondered an official who had been present at that meeting.
“Everything in that briefing had been reviewed and approved at the different agencies by the deputies and principals. It [185] was absolutely clear that we intended to keep the army. Then two months later, Bremer arrives and abolishes it. The strange thing is that if [the neocons] were going to put Chalabi in power, they needed stability-there had to be some sort of government functioning for him to take over-but abolishing the army guaranteed that there would be no stability. Maybe by that point they had given up. Chalabi had been Plan A, but there was no Plan B.” (On the other hand, Chalabi had a vested interest in the dissolution of the army, since it was thought to be a stronghold of support for the rival exile politician, Iyad Allawi.)
Anthony Zinni, the former commanding general of Centcom, has suggested that there was indeed a neocon Plan B, which was to let Iraq sink into chaos. Well before the first American soldier crossed the border, he concluded, “the neocons didn’t really give a shit what happened in Iraq and the aftermath.” He believed that though they may have hoped Chalabi would take power, an alternative scenario in which Iraq fell apart in chaos was entirely acceptable and they would welcome a “messy” outcome that diverted attention from the Israel-Palestine peace process, whatever the degree of bloodshed in Iraq itself.u Zinni based this depressing conclusion, as he told me, on his “observations of the neocons in action” rather than any direct evidence.
However, a month before the invasion, an important Shi’ite cleric, Majid al-Khoei, flew to Washington from London, where he had lived since fleeing Iraq in 1991. Al-Khoei was the son of Grand Ayatollah Mohammed al-Khoei, the most revered and influential cleric in the Shi’ite world until his death in 1992. The younger al-Khoei was himself a respected figure among Iraqi Shi’ites both outside and inside Iraq, and therefore of interest to officials and others involved in invasion planning. On his return to London he told friends that he had spoken with some “American Jews,” which was how he might have described neocons, who had informed him that “preserving the unity of Iraq” was no longer a priority of American policy, and therefore the emergence of a separate Shi’ite state in southern Iraq would be entirely acceptable. This meant, as al-Khoei observed, that “there would be a Shia state in the south with lots of oil, a Kurdish state in the north with lots of oil, and a Sunni state in the middle with no oil at all! “I’
Early in April 2006, the CIA flew al-Khoei to Iraq and escorted him to his native city of Najaf. A few days after his arrival, he was hacked to death by a mob with the apparent complicity or even encouragement of a younger and then relatively unknown cleric, Moqtada al-Sadr.
This evidence, though circumstantial, at least supplies some explanation for the curious decisions emanating from Washington at that time, including the abrupt abandonment of the prewar commitment to preserve the Iraqi army. Apologists for the abolition, including Bremer, argued later that the decree was purely pro forma, as the army had in any case dispersed and gone home at the end of the war, effectively abolishing itself. This was entirely untrue. American officers had been talking to army representatives, who were eager to cooperate. When the decision was announced, large numbers of former soldiers demonstrated angrily. Three days after the announcement the first U.S. soldier to die in an IED (improvised explosive device) attack was killed on the road to the Baghdad airport. American military intelligence officers assumed as a matter of course that it had been planted by newly unemployed and angry soldiers.
Meanwhile, documents similar to the directive passed onto the Pentagon by Indian intelligence weeks earlier were starting to turn up in Baghdad. Dated from before the war, they commanded members of Saddam’s secret service, the Mukhabarat, to promote chaos by burning public buildings and records and discouraging collaboration.”

Posted by: slothrop | May 28 2007 19:46 utc | 235

selective phenomena? or the actions of a bunch of well meaning incompetents (which wouldn’t say much for the collective intelligence of 60 odd years of voters)

Posted by: jcairo | May 28 2007 19:48 utc | 236

tho I know I risk the fate of not passing the MoA loyalty test, or may be deemed to have an “agenda” other than noting out some observations here (that also apply to me) but that may add something, or maybe not… here goes anyway.
from uncle- A deeper understanding of the way things never were, w/apologies to Stephanie Coontz. Last thing, because I’m freaking my own self out now…lol I simply can’t understand why people like slothop and others can still say with a straight face that all these events are happenstance or sheer incompetence…
Coontz’ book as an example would point to a non-all encompassing idea- her book disputes the idea that all Americans were formerly consistent and of one mind, that Americans had a past that was somehow a result of great planning or societal constraints. That’s the myth. The reality is much more chaotic and given to happenstance. Reality is much more of a reaction, even too often among those who think they are acting rather than reacting.
to assume there is some grand unified theory of power, Emmanuel Todd noted, is to give too much power to forces that don’t deserve this claim. I don’t know about the totality of the Iraq invasion but it seems there were multiple reasons the neocons could find to justify their act. At the same time, the only advice Bush gave to the Iraqis upon invasion was to leave the oilfields alone.
Yes, destroying and looting serves a purpose of deciminating a national psyche. Spoils of war go far, far back in human history — and females were an early part of that rape of a culture. nothing new there, and the purposes were domination tactics.
while there is much to believe in the claim that the Bush junta is insane and this is the source of what we often perceive as “incompetence,” — including a recent history demonstrating their delusional beliefs — they are also cunning, as their intellect is based upon creating and accumulating power and destroying enemies, starting with political opponents at home, however they can.
but they are also true believers in free markets… as long as those markets are free to their plutocratic pals and no one else. again, established precedent via previous actions for both of these claims.
bob m has a point, if you look at the art market, that some collectors were surely (as b’s link noted as well) salivating at the prospect of getting their hands on museum pieces in the chaos. I could easily believe they paid Iraqis to loot, and specified particular items, even. Only last year a very prominent museum here had to return items acquired illegally through an unscrupulous dealer.
don’t ask don’t tell is the way such biz is done. art thefts don’t generally occur as a lark. there are targeted works. don’t believe me, tho. check it out. artworks are rarely held for ransom.
again, I don’t have proof, I can only look at established precedent, as in the precedent of BushCo’s nasty cronyism at the expense of everyone, combined with a pathological paranoia.. maybe that they will be held to account? I doubt they have that much conscience, however.
r’giap’s looting post- In 1991, at the close of the first Gulf War, nine of Iraq’s regional museums were looted by rampaging mobs opposed to Saddam Hussein’s government. While the national museum did not come under attack at that time, because the government retained firm control over Baghdad, it lost a number of artifacts that had been transferred to the regional museums for safekeeping.
In all, about 4,000 items were stolen or destroyed during the 1991 looting spree, including some that were thousands of years old. Some of the pieces were later smuggled out of Iraq, and were, by the following year, turning up at art auctions and in the hands of dealers in London and New York.

and, fwiw, the article slothrop quotes in #115 is among those r’giap lists in #111 and and the link at #120 and beyond. so they’re arguing from at least one of the same articles to undergird their positions.
anna missed provides the most definitive response to “notheydinnit” with a link to the article at the WSW, but even then, if you parse what the eyewitness said, they are making assumptions based upon one understanding…not to say it’s the wrong one, but the soldiers may have mistaken the guards for baathists… not to say this is correct, either. And again, for those who do not think the WSW operates without an agenda, it is possible to question that source as much as someone would question any other.
just to say that no one has or can provide definitive proof and thus interpretation is led by ideology. of course, none of us sees our own beliefs as an ideological stance most of the time. sometimes we’re wrong and sometimes we’re right but the times we are right tend to stick in our minds because they reinforce our previously held belief.
the link to the counterpunch grad student article is interesting because the items they discuss are the issues that those who look to the war and occupation as a failure that will not and cannot be righted also note those same failures, based upon previous occupations, not upon a belief that it was a good thing to do. however, to simply note this — does that put someone at risk of being labeled a “collaborator” with empire? I don’t think so.
As far as Iraq’s civil war…again, this was presented to the U.S. govt before the war as the most likely consequence of an invasion. This belief was not simply an american one, however.
maybe the same hubris that gets Americans labeled “a violent people” is the same hubris that ignores probable outcomes except for the one you/he/she want to believe will occur. however, labeling the U.S. as a violent society seems to me to be another trait of empire…and whoever is *the* empire of the moment will display violence toward others as it may in order to rule and gets its way by intimidation…simply because it can…because that is the exericise of empire.
look at Napoleon or the Brits or the Ottoman Empire, and on… when has any of them been any different?

Posted by: fauxreal | May 28 2007 20:09 utc | 237

no they haven’t

Posted by: jcairo | May 28 2007 20:44 utc | 238

CounterPunch (the above referenced source articles) is a rather confusing organization/publication for me. I observed Alexander Cockburn several months ago on C-SPAN Book TV. During a 3-hour interview I found Cockburn to most interesting and I searched out CounterPunch and ultimately contributed to the organization. With that contribution came a monthly newsletter with a slew of authors offering views on many political topics. I have found that I personally find very little agreement with many of the views expressed by CounterPunch. I do, however, enjoy reading Cockburns offerings. I am, in fact, on the waiting list for his yet to be released NEW book.
Just adding to the mix.

Posted by: SoandSo | May 28 2007 20:46 utc | 239

fauxreal
i am a latter day leninist & completely unashamed of it. i think there is no finer work on imperialism than his -‘imperialism, the highest stage of capitalism’ – i have rad it many times since my youth but it has taken on profounder meaning in the last ten years.
if you like, in france the form of skynews scholarship that slothrop wields here is simply scandalously solipsistic. it is nearly always monolingual, it is nearly always based on a form of chauvinism & in very practical terms it leaves out so much – that it is practically useless
i speak & read in a number of languages. that did not fall from the heavens but i fought for it out of necessity & curiosity. what i always admired with alabama’s posts for example – tho we disagree on many things – some of them fundamental – i respect his close reading, sometimes painfully close reading
my problem with slothrop is not only his argument – & it is one we have fought since we met at billmon’s bar but has continued throughout – his absolutel ephemeral arguments about international capital – which when confronted – as in the details of who is benefiting directly from these wars (re posts on war profiteers) – he simply does not answer.
the second problem is the criminality of this particular imperial exercise – i have sd & will keep on saying that i don’t see any quantitatvie difference between the invading german armies of barbarossa & those of the americans in either iraq or afghanistan. that is how i see them. as fascist armies. i don’t see the human face nor frankly do i want to. alabama put it brutally but truthfully. only then – when that blood is sprayed across the same media that besmirches the battle for liberation of the people of iraq – only then will this war stop. it needs to be won by the people of iraq on the battlefields. & imperialism needs to be fought at home
the u s will not attack iran because it will lose. point
iraq just has to make it so difficult for the americans that they will leave & soon
the false humanism of slothrop – which is in fact just another form of arabophobia -which argues that the us needs to be there otherwise these murderous arabs will be at each others throats. this line of argument disgusts me because not only does it reveal a hatred of these people but it also speaks volumes about white skin privilege
if you go back through the post as i have done – slothrop has never spoken of the massacres whether in fallujah or haditha or tal afar – in fact not in any of the towns in iraq. further, when the two battles for fallujah were fought slothrop wrote regularly that ‘his’ empire was unbeatable – that when one spoke of stalingrads we were not seeing the full force & dominance of u s power. in fact, in their wau falljuah & other battles were stalingrads because they moved the balance of power in a way slothrop fails to see.
when i speak speculatively here – i say so – & i do not hide what i fundamentally believe – at the risk of either boring or confronting people – i have maintained what i know to be a rigorous position. i hope not without humanity
but these endless empty reassertions of slothrop irritate me
the vietnam war was fought out in my body & left consequences
so too this sordid war
& slothrop makes much of my anit imperialism because i have given it a national character. & i believe that. the nazis never possessed the cultural power of this empire, the day to day brutality lived out by the masses of people today – is only possible because of that cultural imperialism
& that is precisely why i know that the attack on cultural institutions & infrastructure, objects & above all the intellectuals & artist is not an accident but was premeditated &intentional

Posted by: remembereringgiap | May 28 2007 22:11 utc | 240

i>as in the details of who is benefiting directly from these wars (re posts on war profiteers) –
it’s bizarre to me that you think accumulation is region-specific. it’s not for nothing the nyse and euronext merged. it’s a global economy w/ billions invested from everywhere–wherever the capitalist class is–into even u.s. defense stocks.
and it’s your views that are orientalist. you believe the arabs are so stupid they can be nefariously guided by “empire” to slit their own throats.
but, i’ll do the research for you. it may well be your ideas about the “u.s. intended looting” can be vindicated. we’ll see.

Posted by: slothrop | May 28 2007 23:14 utc | 241

& i not only do it here, fauxreal
there is an axis of argument – essentiallly coming from the so call new philosophers who are neither new or philosophers or their inheritors – that is profoundly anti arab tho it masks itself as a modernist/humanist critique of islam – it is nothing of a sort – they are the scholars of the imperium who love their television & their yankee book contracts
the most troubled is andré glucksman who is a sort of andy warhol meets humphrey the bear – who while supporting chechnya independance can barely hold his contempt for arab or north africans – who i imagine represent death for him – when in fact for ten years now he himself looks like death warmed up. his troubled cousin is an ex 68’er failed cineaste romain goupil – who wept at the feet of the american emporers but lately has been silent, very silent. their political muscle is a sort of zionist toyboy – arno klarsfield – the son of the courageous serge & beate klarsfield – but this one has fallen very far from the tree. beautiful he is but very very nutty indeed. he looks a lot like the french brothers who have just been in the israeli courts for their murder of a palestinian taxi driver – because they wanted to see what it was like to kill an arab
they like slothrop will never mention a haditha, or abn abu ghraib, they will not speak of fallujah – they are free & easy with warcrimes if it is a serbian or an african but dear dear me – if it is an american
they have essentially been swallowed culturally by dennis the menace meets donatien de sade – that american brutality has some purifying characteristic to it
i imagine slothrop is a sincere scholar in his field – but on the questions that have been discussed here – he is exceptionally shallow & his monolinguality is a flaw, for me a profound flaw
at least the uncle $cams & cloned poster rigorously go through the arab media & bring articles to the moon that are extremely extremely valuable – i have seen no evidence in all the time i have known slothrop that he goes that far afield & in the critique of empire – it is absolutely necessary
i do not claim to be authority but i do link as much as is possible & source all that i say – to as many & multiple works as possible
& no it was not an accident that slothrop & i were using the same article – why is that so strange – we have to cover the waterfront & i am not firghtened to be confronted by other ideas & real evidence
the real evidence. slothrop does not provide any – if he did i don’t think we would be here at post 242 (tho that is not a bad thing)

Posted by: remembereringgiap | May 28 2007 23:40 utc | 242

monolingual
hey man, i read politiken.dk hver dag. that’s how i found out about the 11 year old hillbilly who shot the thousand pound hog.

Posted by: slothrop | May 28 2007 23:53 utc | 243

danish doesn’t count. it’s not a language – its another form of barking

Posted by: remembereringgiap | May 28 2007 23:56 utc | 244

just joshing

Posted by: remembereringgiap | May 28 2007 23:57 utc | 245

i suppose if anything demonstrates the “violent u.s. character” it’s the story about the preteen redneck murdering a giant hog

Posted by: slothrop | May 29 2007 0:13 utc | 246

for den føsker slothrop:
Pessimism of the mind, optimism of the will.
Antonio Gramsci
Optimism of the mind, pessimism of the will.
slothrop
Farvel lille føsker, du gamle stykke lort.

Posted by: Bob M. | May 29 2007 3:10 utc | 247

gee whiz, bob. that’s hurtful in any language.

Posted by: slothrop | May 29 2007 3:59 utc | 248

WRT that famous motto usually attributed to gramsci,

L’Ordine Nuovo carried on its masthead the slogan, ‘pessimism of the intellect, optimisim of the will’. Gramsci had taken this from the French socialist Romain Rolland, and it sums up nicely Gramsci’s political philosophy. While it is crucial to have a clearheaded and totally realistic analysis of any political situation, effective political action, particularly on the part of those outside the ruling elite, demands a political will that believes in the possibility of that success.
— kate crehan, gramsci, culture and anthropology

now if we can just get the general public to stop trusting that the nation’s self-declared/appointed leaders will eventually do the right thing & start putting more trust in themselves, maybe — optimistically — this country will become accountable to real social values & not fantasy-world economic ideas. just maybe we can chew on what it is about the structural organization of our societies that makes us so violent — and this violence is not just directed at other humans, but just as much, perhaps more, toward the non-humans, the environment, & the non-living (ideas, objects, representations) — and work together to change it. for when we do interrogate this particular subject, we will find that the systems in which we organize & live our lives are designed to benefit the corrupt & that violence is a core component of its hierarchical makeup.
again, crehan

It is subaltern classes’ inability to organize that he see as perhaps their most fundamental weakness, preventing them from overcoming their subordination. For any group to achieve dominance and to make its conception of the world hegemonic, and then to reproduce that hegemony, demands organization. The work of organization is for Gramsci an integral part of the production of knowledge that is able to act in the world, which knowledge that does not act in the world is no more than sterile pedantry.

Posted by: b real | May 29 2007 4:25 utc | 249

“while knowledge”

Posted by: b real | May 29 2007 4:30 utc | 250

a more appropo example would be the 21 year old and his pals murdering and raping Afghanis

Posted by: jcairo | May 29 2007 9:45 utc | 251

Yeah jcairo, here’s the original, which goes a bit deeper…
I Am My Mom’s Kid – Dr. Laura’s Little Monster
Snip:

Why did Laura switch so suddenly from being such a freewheeling swinger for women’s rights to a sanctimonious “nag” cheering on a senseless war? Can you spell opportunism? Here’s the story I heard around the time I was writing Being a Woman with Dr. Toni Grant, one of Laura’s colleagues: When a right-wing phenomenon named Rush Limbaugh got the radio time slot before hers, and Laura saw Rush’s ratings rise, she decided to go after his audience with a vengeance. She changed her politics 180 degrees, becoming the ultra-right-wing, liberal-bashing Dominatrix to the Dittohead Faithful, entertaining her vicariously sadistic audience by verbally beating up her hapless callers who didn’t conform to rigidly held ideals of purity, monogamy, blind patriotism and “family values.” Of course, Laura has never been one to practice what she preached, and her personal family feeling was on display when she had to claim the body of her 77-year-old mother from the LA County morgue ten days after it had been found rotting, unattended, in her apartment.

I loath these moralizing shame vipers, and this never ending parade of piety filled Bushco hypocrites who choose to cover their own sense of shame by heaping it on to others, under the “family values” and “protect the children” vulgar fallacy; These 17th century minded soul sick puritans and their callous ethics.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | May 29 2007 11:13 utc | 252

Ya, Uncle$ it isn’t the heat, it is the hypocrisy
“This from the “kid” whose “mom” called gays a “biological error.” What does that make her gun-sucking son? A nurtured nightmare?”
what is it with the guns in the mouth?
FWIW Canadian troops are abusing prisoners too (and have in the past). There was a recent story (can’t find it) which featured quotes from Afghani/Taliban officials which basically reduced it to – “It is just a tempest in a teapot. We do much worse to each other.” Examples were then given including tossing bodies down wells (ancient tactic) – which also happens to be the fate of the first person bumped into at My Lai. This was an old man with wispy white hair after he was bayoneted and had his throat slit. Followed up with a grenade for good measure…
Plus ca change,,,

Posted by: jcairo | May 29 2007 12:31 utc | 253