Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
May 22, 2007
The Violent U.S. Character

It’s quite short of historic perspective as it keeps up a tale of "good Americans" before GWB, but the piece hits a nail which, to my utter shame, even I usually avoid to hit directly:

[T]here’s a deeper reason why the popular impeachment movement has never taken off — and it has to do not with Bush but with the American people. Bush’s warmongering spoke to something deep in our national psyche. The emotional force behind America’s support for the Iraq war, the molten core of an angry, resentful patriotism, is still too hot for Congress, the media and even many Americans who oppose the war, to confront directly. It’s a national myth. It’s John Wayne. To impeach Bush would force us to directly confront our national core of violent self-righteousness — come to terms with it, understand it and reject it. And we’re not ready to do that.
[…]
Bush tapped into a deep American strain of fearful, reflexive bellicosity, which Congress and the media went along with for a long time and which has remained largely unexamined to this day. Congress, the media and most of the American people have yet to turn decisively against Bush because to do so would be to turn against some part of themselves.
Why Bush hasn’t been impeached

Comments

most of the American people have yet to turn decisively against Bush because to do so would be to turn against some part of themselves.
yawn
todays msnbc poll says 88% of the american public want him impeached. w/half a million voters.
many polls have stated a clear majority of americans want him impeached. i’m not clear what kind of mind frame is preventing the ptb to keep him in office but did you orgasm all over the keyboard when you read that b 😉 i think most american have turned decisively against him. frontpaged right now from kos. the rest of them?
Thems are some serious losers that still support this failed presidency.

Posted by: annie | May 22 2007 21:44 utc | 1

As soon as I read this I thought of Joe Bagent’s Revenge of the Mutt People — a sort of backhanded paean to his Scot-Irish heritage. I take the liberty of qouting a single paragraph:

My point here is that we rural and small town mutt people by an early age seem to have a special capacity for cruelty, compared say, to damned near every other imaginable group of Americans. For instance, as a child did you ever put a firecracker up a toad’s ass and light it? George Bush and I have that in common. Anyway, as all non-whites the world round understand, white people can be mean. Especially if they feel threatened — and they feel threatened about everything these days. But when you provide certain species of white mutt people with the right incentives, such as free pork or approval from god and government, you get things like lynchings, Fallujah, the Birmingham bombers and Abu Ghraib.

Posted by: Chuck Cliff | May 22 2007 21:45 utc | 2

annie
they must turn away – in very concrete terms – not in this or that fabulation of this or that shit piece of media

Posted by: remembereringgiap | May 22 2007 21:49 utc | 3

we rural and small town mutt people
most of the American people

?

Posted by: annie | May 22 2007 21:49 utc | 4

I disagree with this. I believe a majority of the American pople have turned against Bush. I believe a majority of the people disagreed with this war from the start. Unfortunately, those in power including Congress and the media are filled with the kind of self-righteous imperialist pride depicted in this opinion. But I do not believe most Americans are that shallow and deluded. We just don’t know how to stop this.

Posted by: apishapa | May 22 2007 22:01 utc | 5

they must turn away
you mean the way we all turned away very concretely, not in this or that fabulation of this or that shit piece of media from clinton?
i don’t remember a big groundwell of support for that, i just remember one day they were bringing charges. do you think it was because most americans came to terms with what a liar he was, understood him and reject him?
or maybe it had little to do w/the american public but a calculated move by the gop to be the party of ‘values’ in order for at least an appearance of a republican win for the next election.
pelosi has stated clearly she will not bring the charges. why? could it be they have decided it is not the right political move? how the f do i know. maybe they don’t want to piss off rethugs who’s vote they are going after.
they do what they do what they do in congress, but i guess in this circumstance you can guess it is because of the will of most american people.

Posted by: annie | May 22 2007 22:01 utc | 6

most muslim people have yet to turn decisively against terror because to do so would be to turn against some part of themselves.

Posted by: annie | May 22 2007 22:05 utc | 7

ok, my last comment for awhile. obviously i wasn’t serious w/my #7 comment.
if you want a little taste of the violent US character check out the response to this article here

Posted by: annie | May 22 2007 22:17 utc | 8

congress is full of ’em

Posted by: remembereringgiap | May 22 2007 22:18 utc | 9

annie
you are my comrade -but even as an aside – do not ascribe terrorism to a people who have had terror brought to them by this or that empire
what you link to every day here annie serves as a witness to that level of terrorism

Posted by: remembereringgiap | May 22 2007 22:23 utc | 10

oh r’giap i was merely giving an example of how inappropriate it is to make generalized theories that are not based on anything other than the whimsy of some deluded writer. grates on your nerves when applied to people you sympathize with? don’t like me lumping all muslims into some category? i used them because i knew it would get your attention. how do you think i feel reading about a man MILLIONS OF AMERICANS HATE W/A PASSION AS BEING some part of themselves.
really, this makes me want to vomit. most americans bla bla bla.
the piece hits a nail which, to my utter shame, even I usually avoid to hit directly
your utter shame? most germans most germans most germans most muslims most muslims most muslims most french most french most blacks most hispanics most immigrants most most most americans. this is just perpetuating stereotypes.

Posted by: annie | May 22 2007 22:46 utc | 11

really, this makes me want to vomit…. this is just perpetuating stereotypes.
Amen to that.

Posted by: Bea | May 22 2007 23:26 utc | 12

annie
as germany 1933-45 proved without any question – there are perpetrator nations & victim nations.
all that happened then – happened with complicity & consent
what is happening today is happening because of complicity & consent
there is no way around this permutation. the basis of the permutation is u s forces are either killing or destroying people, masses of people – it is in whatever way you want to look at it – a genocide
this genocide has been built on foundations that have allowed people & sometime the destiny of nations to be extinguished. extinguished
what america has done is to sanitise this murder – it has sanitised it through technology, it has silenced it through its media & it has brought the public to its knees with fear. & through this nexus it has allowed murder to be practiced from ‘targeted assasinations’, ‘death squads’ & through its complete control of the media it has hidden the murder & destruction of a people – in this case, iraq
i just don’t have the difficulty you have with calling my country by its real name. i left my own country over 20 years ago precisely because of what that country had become – i could not live in it, would not live in it, will never live in it. built on genocide as america was – it has always been america’s willing executioner for all its dirty deeds – whether that was vietnam, phillipines, indonesia east timor etc. since i have left that country – its real & fundamental nature has become clear – in the way it treats aborigines, refugees & the poor. it is america in situ
instead of becomin the enlightenments jewel it has become its curse & it is for me a cursed nation – whatever slothrop wants to bring to the table. personally, for me from the moment of vietnam to today i have never wavered in my opposition to us imperialism . indeed today it is greater – i hate it with all my heart. & i can tell you ,contrary to the mythology – in france, it is not a popular opinion. indeed the mythology of france makes the sideshow of d day seem to be much more than it was – & deeply & immediately wanted to forget that the freedom of the french was contingent entirely on the russian & partisan armies of the east
& that anti imperialism of mine is a little more complicated than a slothrop would like to imagine but for us imperialism remains the principal threat to humanity, today & for the forseeable bloody future

Posted by: remembereringgiap | May 23 2007 0:00 utc | 13

There’s people here, outward-looking, less fearful, not so much American as educated. You’d be distressed to see how much like you they think. Only here that sane element has been pushed aside, maybe for a long time. Some will emigrate as it worsens, and you’ll need their help to rein the US in. Generalizing is fun, I like it too. I would like to pin it all on Confederate revanchism and provincial exclusion, but it’s infected the old, the economically insecure, and the dim. Commercial propaganda entrenches it, and who’s to say that the worst of it isn’t part of our character now. Maybe the best thing to do is to cripple your old ally. Shouldn’t be too hard.

Posted by: kindlebugger | May 23 2007 0:08 utc | 14

opposition is opposition is opposition – is the only important – whether from there or here
i do not & will not engage in a ‘flamewar’ with anyone here – this life is quite hard enough as it is & even in those debates here that are furious – from where i am standing it is still an argument among friends or an argument with ourselves a s shakespeare would have it

Posted by: remembereringgiap | May 23 2007 0:15 utc | 15

The Salon article doesn’t ring true at all from my perspective. You could look at so many different groups of human beans from many different cultures and find deep strains of fearful bellicosity. We’re all mammals; we’re not as big and strong as some of the other predator types; it’s a jungle out there, man.
Sombunall human beans have a big stock of aggression hidden under a thin veneer of civilization. When civilization’s rules begin to visibly tilt, the aggression comes to the surface.
I think the lack of support for impeachment stems more from the fact that sombunall of those who desperately want it to happen still hold misplaced faith in the “democratic system” that we no longer live under, if we ever did. Pelosi and the Dems in congress pretend in the system, but operate under the realpolitik of megamultiglobalarmasaurus corporate oligarchy.

Posted by: catlady | May 23 2007 2:20 utc | 16

megamultiglobalarmasaurus corporate oligarchy.
totally catlady

Posted by: annie | May 23 2007 2:42 utc | 17

Shareholders unite! Throw off your CEOs! Accountabiility of the BoD! (klaxons blaring) Divest! Divest! Divest!

Posted by: catlady | May 23 2007 2:47 utc | 18

Somebunall is,i think,a word that we badly need. It means some but not all. Perception involves abstraction(or subtraction)-When we look at an apple we do not see all the apple but only part of the surface of the apple -and our generalizations or models or reality tunnels are made up of coordinations or orchestrations of these abstractions.
We never know “all” ; we really know, at best sombunall.
Imagine a world in which Germany did not contain the word “alles”or any of its derivatives,but did include “sombuall”
Adolph Hitler would never had been able to say or think most of his generalizations of all jews. At most he would have been talking and thinking about sombunall jews.
Extremist Holocaust mentalities are encouraged by all-ness statements.
Sombunall Christians are pig-headed bible thumpers.
Get it?
File under: General Semantics, verbal abuse, Robert Anton Wilson*, models or reality-tunnels.
*He coined a new word, sombunall (some but not all), which never quite caught on. But imo should, starting NOW.
Thanks annie, and cat lady, bea…

Posted by: Uncle $cam | May 23 2007 3:02 utc | 19

I don’t attribute the mess we’re in to an immutable part of the American character, per se – and although I’ve lived in the U.S. most of my life, I had the experience of spending years elsewhere while growing up – and while on my mother’s side I’m descended from many generations of U.S. citizens, my dad was an immigrant – so I assure you, I am both knowledgeable and objective – these opinions I’m about to express are guaranteed correct, or your money back
Howard Zinn wrote an article in which he stated that two main Big Lies are strongly inculcated here – that there are no class interests, and that America always acts altruistically in the world (freedom and democracy, delivered to you by explosions and bullets)
Add in the religious fundamentalists with their apocalyptic loyalty to a muscular Zionism, and the control of the government and mass media by the military-industrial-congressional complex, in Eisenhower’s phrase, also known as the megamultiglobalarmasaurus corporate oligarchy, and you have a prescription for perpetual war.
And yet – perhaps I’m wrong here – it really doesn’t HAVE to be like this – if the scales fell from enough American eyes, things could change – maybe even without much bloodshed here in the Homeland
It would take more than a mere change of direction, of course – it would require repentence – a recognition of error, and a commitment to recognize it and atone for it – hard to do (the Japanese haven’t done it, really) but not impossible (the Germans have, I’d say)
Some relatively large fraction of the population would have to accept the following : That we were lied to, and we believed the lies because we were afraid, ignorant, and self-centered, and consequently we did some very bad things – but we can learn, grow and change
Maybe it would take a miracle – but after all, the greatest miracle has already happened – there is something rather than nothing – and if that can happen, so can this
May the Creative Forces of the Universe (if any) grant my felllow Americans the gift of seeing ourselves as inhabitants of the planet, wonderful and horrible, but in the final analysis, just regular folks
Joe Bageant is right – white people can be mean – but non-melanin-impaired people can be mean too – for a combination of reasons discussed in Diamond’s Guns, Germs, and Steels, white people had and to some extent still do have an advantage in pushing around people on other continents – but the limits of coercion have been revealed by the Iraqis, as by the Vietnamese before them – and those that can accept information are catching on

Posted by: mistah charley ph.d. | May 23 2007 3:52 utc | 20

annie
Look at the House of Mirrors we have built, as Americans. WE multiply the reflections, to scattered and dissipate the horror that a single, coherent reflection would bring. It is considered “liberal” to look for the roots of violence in our history, in our so-called criminal justice, in the corporate/government handshake, in the addiction to war, in the privatization and dismantling of the public good, or to search through the ruins of our public life and our news media for some shred of conscience.
Better get on down to “Ritmo” and “Gitmo”, all you good girls and boys.
The mirror is a cruel thing.

Posted by: Copeland | May 23 2007 4:01 utc | 21

This will end well.
Yep, there are a sizeable number of “violent, self-righteous” Americans. Now all that is left for a workable hypothesis to emerge here is to propose why it is that the foreign policies of other nations, each of whom has “violent, self-righteous” citizens, don’t mirror that of the USA.
I’m not being the least bit snarky here. I will not deny that many Americans possess the traits described above. I can be pretty “violent” and “self-righteous” myself. But my “violence” and “self-righteousness” has positively paled in comparison to that of most Canadians, Irish, Kiwis, Indians, Scots, Brits, South Africans, Japanese, South Koreans, Estonians, English, Serbs, Germans, Uzbekis, French, and Australians with whom I have happily exchanged both words and fisticuffs in recent months.
I don’t see causality here at all. You’ve made a profound observation that was a long time in coming regarding human nature, and applied it far, far too narrowly to a specific deme, and then produced a nearly unrelated conclusion out of it. This epiphany is still based on the a priori reasoning that a government in any way reflects the underlying will of the people it ostensibly represents… and that is an a priori I abandoned a long time ago. I think it’s equally tenable to say that, since most Americans are bipedal, bipedalism results in fascism.
Look, I’m with you as far as most things go, but I have (admittedly gleefully) physically defended myself from enough “enlightened” citizens of various nationalities in bar settings not to accept this particular line of reasoning as an adequate explanation for the Bush administration. I’m tired of saying that they don’t represent anyone but their own interests. I’m tired of explaining electoral fraud. I’m tired of explaining the international nature of commerce and finance. If the only syllogism you can internalize is “The American government is run by monsters, the American government is run by Americans; Therefore, Americans are monsters”, then I don’t expect we have much more to discuss.
Let the throat punching commence.

Posted by: Monolycus | May 23 2007 4:10 utc | 22

Monolycus raises an interesting point. American nationalism exists, and is dangerous, but compared with the chauvinistic nationalism of virtually every country? There’s something almost innocent and pure about it. America is the best, we know, so there’s no reason to fight. Only disbelief that others could disagree.
It could be argued, I suppose, that this uncritical approach to nationalism lets American leaders get away with what they do. I suspect it’s just that the US happens to have rather a lot of power, and any nation with rather a lot of power will act negatively.

Posted by: Rowan | May 23 2007 4:39 utc | 23

The comments here are refreshing. Maybe people who spent the last few decades honing notions of American national character, etc. are having a hard time seeing what is going on in the US now. Most Americans do not spend a lot of their time thinking about politics. It is more comfortable to believe in exceptionalism and muscular virtue and so on. And this was encouraged. People here are sick and tired of it. An unusual amount of thought is now being dedicated to how we got to where we are. That is why certain interest groups are shitting a proverbial brick. A guy can show up at a Republican presidential debate, say that 9/11 was due to US meddling, and become the most searched for political figure on the internet.
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/blogs/news_blog/070509/ron_pauls_online_rise.htm
folks, if you have spent your life building some notion of what the US is, please take this opportunity to consider that people here have recently been helped to a large serving of reality. Not that Ron Paul is a savior, but just understand that things are very much in flux over here.

Posted by: boxcar mike | May 23 2007 5:16 utc | 24

Democrats Pull Troop Deadline From Iraq Bill

Congressional Democrats relented Tuesday on their insistence that a war spending measure set a date for withdrawing American combat troops from Iraq. Instead, they moved toward a deal with President Bush that would impose new conditions on the Iraqi government.

In an effort to appease antiwar Democrats, the party’s leaders plan to allow two votes in the House. One would provide the war money, and seems likely to be opposed by large numbers of Democrats. The other, separated out to allow more Democrats to vote in favor, would include popular measures that are also part of the package, including a minimum wage increase and $17 billion in added domestic and military spending.

More money for the black hole Pentagon, some bribes for the farming industry and otherwise no strings attached … as the author cited above said:

Congress, the media and most of the American people have yet to turn decisively against Bush because to do so would be to turn against some part of themselves.

If there are better explanation, let me know.

Posted by: b | May 23 2007 5:23 utc | 25

I think most Americans were and remain naively swayed by daily mass media bombardment, led by Fox and CNN, insisting that the US is ‘at war’ and that patriotic American boys and girls in the military are sacrificing their lives to ‘defend our nation’ from ‘the enemy.’
Basically a replay of Vietnam. Utterly stupid.

Posted by: Wolf DeVoon | May 23 2007 6:30 utc | 26

@Rowan #23
“America is the best, we know, so there’s no reason to fight. Only disbelief that others could disagree.”
Them sound like fightin’ words, pal.
Nobody here has said “America is best”, least of all me. What I am saying is that exceptionalism doesn’t make Americans exceptional, and the overall conclusion that ANY attitude held by a majority of Americans makes the least difference regarding the failure to impeach Bush is still as fallacious as annie tried to illustrate at #7. Or do you think African American crime rate has nothing to do with the fact that so many of them are underprivileged and everything to do with the fact that they are just “violent” people?
Seriously. My personal self-righteous, violent tendencies have as much to do with the perpetuation of BushCo as European’s self-righteous, anti-Americanism does. Bush and Co are self sufficient and do not represent any of us. Maybe the internecine finger pointing we always devolve into during these discussions can be factored into the variables of things that work towards BushCo’s advantage? Seems as logically consistent as anything anyone else has said.

Posted by: Monolycus | May 23 2007 6:44 utc | 27

Monolycus
When I was a young man and taking a freshman course in Logic at university, there was a marvelous rolly-polly professor, named Dalrymple, a much beloved man on campus who used to fascinate us with his powers of elocution. He was a kind of Demosthenes who could make himself understood, while the short stub of an unlit cigar moved incessantly around the perimeters of his mouth. I remember my introduction to the syllogism.

Socrates is a man.
All men are mortal.
Therefore Socrates is mortal.

For comic effect, dear professor Dalrymple would truncate the syllogism this way: “Socrates…a man…mortal”, and we would all laugh, as the cigar continued its bobbing and weaving.
But dear Monolycus, I thing you have a bug in your syllogism.

The American government is run by monsters.
The American government is run by Americans.
Therefore, Americans are monsters.

It’s been a long time since I took the course; but your syllogism seems to be crawling with Americans. You have “Americans” in all three steps; and really you have the thing wired-up wrong.
As for the punches in the mouth, I don’t know how to help you. If you believe that you can’t be associated with the evils your country is committing, this idea should probably be discussed in foreign countries only after you have taken the time to get to know the person, and preferably not in a place where people have been drinking heavily.

Posted by: Copeland | May 23 2007 7:01 utc | 28

@Copeland#28
The syllogism that I presented, and that you re-iterated, was deliberately faulty… as syllogisms so often are. To wit:

Socrates was mortal.
Dogs are mortal.
Fill in the rest of the implication yourself.

And, to clarify, the question of whether or not I can be “associated” with the evils my country is committing is not the question. We are all “associated” with the evils my country is committing. The question is how directly “responsible” for the evils my country is committing am I? To suggest that the Bush administration exists because Americans are evil in their hearts is not qualitatively different than certain reknowned evangelists who suggest that people die of AIDS because “God Hates Fags”. It not only misses the point entirely, but it creates a brand new set of hostilities all on its own.
The punches (given and received) are simply evidence to me that folk aren’t substantially different no matter which flag happens to be on their passports.

Posted by: Monolycus | May 23 2007 7:40 utc | 29

You are illustrating a false syllogism, I see. But Monolycus I still don’t understand all of your post at #22, and I was totally confused by Annie’s use of all bold in #7, which is like shouting–so I didn’t read anything except what it seemed to flatly say. The American government has reflected the violent propensity of too many Americans; and in the past it has reflected a criminal indifference, an anti-intellectualism, a coarsening, glibness and vulgarity that has entered American life.
Elie Wiesel has said “The opposite of love is not hatred but indifference.” This is precisely the sickness at the heart of American life that we see in George W. Bush. I can’t blame Europeans for their indignation, since I feel indignant myself. Is the implication that we can’t turn against him completely because we see in him a part of ourselves? Bullshit. Progressives, activists, millions among those who voted for Gore and Kerry in the last two presidential races have turned completely against Bush and his regime.
If people who read this thread are wondering how far we Americans ought to sink in complicity with these evils before considering whether we should lay down our lives or flee the country–well I don’t as yet know the answer to that question. But Monolycus when you say there is no connection between American government and Americans, that is a cop out. And on the basis of that, it’s no wonder you get into fights.
This American republic is a half-broken system, but it has not ceased to exist, and it mirrors the imperfections and moral failings of those who are responsible for it.

Posted by: Copeland | May 23 2007 7:59 utc | 30

@ b #25 sombunall Democrats who are agents for megamultiglobalarmasaurus prefer to make their rivals (sombunall Republicans who are agents for megamultiglobalarmasaurus) look bad so that they (sombunall Democrats) have a better chance of taking the big prize (CEO of megamultiglobalarmasaurus, previously known as POTUS) in 2008.
the bleeding and dying of humans as well as the rape of the treasury are of secondary and tertiary interest if indeed any at all.
there can be no other explanation. w polls below 29%, the public wants an end to the mess by a two thirds majority. when I saw Rahm Emmanuel on the teevee this morning, I knew the democrats had been called back in from play time and had to get back to the business of pleasing their masters.
I can see why sombunall politicians often frequent prostitutes….they probably appreciate being around others with similar values.

Posted by: dan of steele | May 23 2007 8:19 utc | 31

“This doesn’t mean we support Bush, simply that at some dim, half-conscious level we’re too confused — not least by our own complicity — to work up the cold, final anger we’d need to go through impeachment. We haven’t done the necessary work to separate ourselves from our abusive spouse. We need therapy — not to save this disastrous marriage, but to end it.”
The operative paragraph IMHO, because obviously American citizens didn’t have to work any “cold, final anger to go through (the) impeachment” of Bill Clinton. Investigations/impeachment remains the prerogative of the ruling party in congress at the negligible risk of offending voters. But because the effects of impeachment are negligible — in that there is (unfortunately) a disconnect to the citizenry that automatically transfers the reason for impeachment into an exclusively political act. In hindsight, Bill Clinton maintained high approval ratings throughout his impeachment trial, suffered little political consequence, and more importantly, the republicans paid virtually no price for impeaching him. The democrats are obviously well aware that impeachment is not the best vehicle for expressing voter discontent, especially since the reasons for an impeachment of bush is more intrinsic than a blue dress ever was, and that they would prefer that growing discontentment and anger be expressed by the people themselves in 2008. Tragic, but probably more true than not — given the state of our representation.

Posted by: anna missed | May 23 2007 9:13 utc | 32

I was totally confused by Annie’s use of all bold in #7, which is like shouting–so I didn’t read anything except what it seemed to flatly say.
copeland, i used bold because b had bolded this sentence from the article..
most of the American people have yet to turn decisively against Bush because to do so would be to turn against some part of themselves.
maybe you can see the connection in how both the sentences are insulting.
We are all “associated” with the evils my country is committing. The question is how directly “responsible” for the evils my country is committing am I?
of course we are all associated, this isn’t really in question. but i ask myself, rather than ‘how directly responsible’, which seems to lead one down a path of attempted disassociation or exculpation, to instead ask myself, in what way am i associated? when you find the connection, you can reject it. the challenge sometimes seems insurmountable because of the corporations.
my concern is the more one pulls away, or the society in general pulls away, they will only pull the noose tighter. like a trap.

Posted by: annie | May 23 2007 9:24 utc | 33

@Copeland #30
Throw the blame wherever you want to, it doesn’t change the numbers. More people worldwide protested against the invasion in Iraq in 2003 than had ever protested anything in the history of humankind, and they were dismissed by the Bush administration as a “focus group”. So, sure, Americans tacit support or condemnation of this administration makes the first bit of difference to their policies. It’s all the fault of whichever group makes a convenient target.
I’ll take whatever bit of blame and finger pointing you want to throw at my feet if you’d kindly explain what, precisely, it is that you think I can do about it. I protested in 2003, I signed petitions, I have voted in every single Presidential and midterm election America has had since I was old enough to participate in the process, I have promulgated news as it comes to me, I have thought long and hard on these issues… so what, in your infinite wisdom, have I been doing to so enable this administration? Short of an out and out coup complete with pitchforks and torches (which I would have gladly participated in as little as two years ago), I can’t think of anything that has not been attempted. Since, however, you can see so much enfranchisement that I can’t, I humbly ask you…
What can the evil Americans do to rid the world of this malignancy? If you have a course of action that could legitimately lead to an improvement, I’m all ears… I’m just not going to be a passive scapegoat because you happen to be as frustrated as I am about things.
As for why Bush hasn’t been impeached, and won’t be for the foreseeable future, I ran through those numbers about a month ago… but it wasn’t a pretty picture and so nobody responded.
And that’s what I think we are down to… finding somebody to take the blame. So, is it an inherent self-righteousness and hypocrisy in the character of Europeans that is at the root of the failure of the Hague or United Nations to level formal war crimes trials? Please, enlighten me as to the wherefores.

Posted by: Monolycus | May 23 2007 9:24 utc | 34

Not to be misunderstood, I’m all for the clamor for impeachment, particularly on moral grounds, and its ability to increase the bonfire under bush. It actually also puts the fire under the democrats as well, in their reluctance, to address the moral implications of their political calculations. A prospect they are about as uncomfortable with as the republicans are with continued support for bush. What we’ll get is full spectrum political failure — and thats the hallmark of this whole escapade, as it should be.

Posted by: anna missed | May 23 2007 9:40 utc | 35

And that’s what I think we are down to… finding somebody to take the blame
of course, hence, the title to the post. i finally read the entire article. there are so many blatant mischaracterized statements.
What has saved Bush is the fact that his lies were, literally, a matter of life and death. They were about war. And they were sanctified by 9/11.
no, they weren’t. they just kept telling us they were.
seen from the point of view of the American people, what it increasingly resembles is a bad marriage. America finds itself married to a guy who has turned out to be a complete dud.
a bad marriage? a dud? is that what we would call a war criminal?
the unique gravity of war surrounds it with a kind of patriotic force field. There is an ancient human deference to The Strong Man Who Will Defend Us,
i think he is reading to many msm reports. most americans do not confuse bush w/a strong man who will defend us and this war is not surrounded by a patriotic force field. it is surrounded by national shame.
“I’m a war president. I’m a war president.” It worked, literally, like a charm.
no, it did not! if it worked like a charm why are his rating so low. why do we hear he is the worst president ever. why do people HATE HIM?
And they reaffirmed this acceptance when, long after his fraudulent case for war had been exposed as such, they reelected him.
he was not elected in the first place, so he was never ‘reelected’. there is more than a strong case be was never even elected once by a majority of voters.
And it wasn’t just the masses who were calling for the United States to reach out and smash someone. Pundits like Henry Kissinger and New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman also called for America to attack the Arab world.
excuse me? don’t they have that turned around?? wasn’t it the pundits and the msm that drove bush’s message. what masses calling out to smash someone?
The establishment media, which has tended to treat impeachment talk as if it were the unseemly rantings of half-crazed hordes, has clearly bought this paradigm.
bought it? i’d say they sold it. this article is twisted but i can understand its appeal for those seeking a certain kind of confirmation.

Posted by: annie | May 23 2007 10:17 utc | 36

sorry, i am on a roll.
Bush tapped into a deep American strain of fearful, reflexive bellicosity, which Congress and the media went along with
doesn’t this seem turned around?? are we to believe congress and the media “went along”. where did that strain of fear come from. terra terra. it is designed, nurtured , cultivated, manipulated carefully at much expense$.
fox news ‘went along’, spare me.

Posted by: annie | May 23 2007 10:31 utc | 37

The critique of Americans here assumes we have a democracy. We don’t. Americans wouldn’t mind impeaching Bush, but the ruling class will not accept it. And there is no vehicle in our system to pressure for impeachment, short of insurrection.

Posted by: folkers | May 23 2007 12:35 utc | 38

Rawk on annie!
We (mostbunall)Americans have been attacked and seized upon at every turn. From day one, we have been fighting against a machine, from 1950’s style secret blacklists to trillion dollar propaganda psychological operations (PSYOP’s), caged in “freespeech zones” to the voyeuristic recidivism by the elite and their allies using the most advanced military black budget technologies at their disposal, and still the machine has not silenced all of us, yet.
We have been threatened, demeaned, discounted, imprisoned, excommunicated and I suspect tortured. The only thing left for these butt suck, buzz cut, Nazi authoritarian dick-heads is to false flag another event so as to implement the ultimate control. However, they know that by doing so, they will not only lock us down, but in turn lock themselves in with us.
And that is not appealing to the bottom line shareholders of the machine. But will it stop them from doing so? I imagine we shall see.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | May 23 2007 12:35 utc | 39

Mono,
My use of “we” was somewhat ironic and not really intended to speak for the people here. My post was essentially agreeing with you, other than that.

Posted by: Rowan | May 23 2007 14:18 utc | 40

folkers, you are correct to say that the ruling class will not accept an impeachment of one their own, even if he really deserves it BUT the overall point of mostbunall Americans not wanting to face their own complicity in this still stands.
sorry annie, this is not directed at you nor your friends nor anyone else that is actively opposing the looting and pillaging of our own government as well as Iraq……just everybody else.

Posted by: dan of steele | May 23 2007 14:37 utc | 41

The wake-up call will come upon the US populous with a depression-level economic squeeze.
The unknown will be the reaction; to rebuild institutions and government justly or to lash out with militarism.

Posted by: Rouser | May 23 2007 19:03 utc | 42

i was somewhat bemused & heartened to read the 40th anniversary issue of rolling stone & nearly half of them including george mcgovern, norman mailer, jane fonda, jackson brown – in their interviews & considerbaly harder in their judgement of u s imperialism than either i am – or b for that matter

Posted by: remembereringgiap | May 23 2007 21:57 utc | 43

in their interviews & considerbaly harder in their judgement of u s imperialism
i know it’s probably hard to imagine but my experience is the harshest critics of the bastards are right here at home.

Posted by: annie | May 23 2007 23:04 utc | 44

lol

Posted by: annie | May 23 2007 23:08 utc | 45

a great american l/lll

Posted by: remembereringgiap | May 24 2007 0:24 utc | 46

Monolycus I’m holding an olive branch out here; and I didn’t mean to scapegoat you, as you have clearly gone the extra mile and spoken out against the mad king. I never would suggest you are an “enabler” because all evidence of your writing here at MoA makes short work of such an absurd notion. You are right that I am frustrated just as you are. Your complicity (if we may use the word) is substantially no different than mine. It is harder in the present circumstance to adjust to alternations of despair and hope.
What agitated me is not the idea that you are to blame for anything at all, but perhaps it was a cynical remark you made about your abandonment of any idea “on the a priori reasoning that a government in any way reflects the underlying will of the people it ostensibly represents..”
I have a hard time accepting that view; and I believe now that that was what got me all stirred up.

Posted by: Copeland | May 24 2007 0:31 utc | 47

on a depression as a wakeup call:
Isn’t it often said that export or manufacturing jobs create three or four additional jobs, because the money that comes into the locale rattles around? Then does bringing in capital with IOUs instead of widgets have a similar effect, except that it is supposed to be canceled by punishment from forex and bond markets? And if forex and bond markets are manipulated such that this feedback is disabled, then wouldn’t the accumulation of money by borrowing have a similar multiplying effect? And if it is a factor of three or four, and current account deficit is 8% of GDP, assuming that the jobs factor works as well for GDP (?), does that mean that a third of our economy is pushing around borrowed money? Billmon, are you out there?

Posted by: boxcar mike | May 24 2007 3:41 utc | 48

@Rowan
I wasn’t entirely sure which side you were coming down on there, and I erred on the side of belligerence. Sorry about that. My ability to distinguish sarcasm is diminished in direct proportion to the height of my dander. It’s one of my many personal failings.
@Copeland
Olive branches aren’t necessary; we aren’t enemies and we have the same goals. I am sorry that my statement about how the US government in no way reflects the will of its constituency rubbed you the wrong way… but it is a conclusion I reluctantly and unhappily have come to. I am sadly in complete agreement with folker’s comment (#38). I realize that this might come across as a “cop out” and an absolution for my own personal contributions. It isn’t, and I take no relief from it. As a matter of fact, it would be more heartening to me if I could believe that something as simple as a “wake up call” to the public held the potential to change things.
Your own comment that “…(i)f people who read this thread are wondering how far we Americans ought to sink in complicity with these evils before considering whether we should lay down our lives or flee the country” similarly struck one of my nerves through no fault of your own. I’ve already gone through that equation and fled… which eats at me every day. It is not that I place a particularly high value on my life, it is that I could see my personal situation deteriorating faster than the national one and had no hope that any human action on my part… up to and including dying… could begin to make a difference. I rankle at the cowardice of my retreat, but I could simply see no other option. I apologise if I was overly lashing out in your direction.
I stand by my observation that, yes, Americans have a deep-seated violence in their character, but that it is a human, rather than a national, trait. But violence is not what has created and perpetuates the Bush administration… money is.
And please do not assume that I am giving violence a free pass when I say that. I disagree that the failure to impeach George Bush is a consequence of people having violent characters, but there most definitely are other consequences that arise from cultures of violence. It is simply that in this case, I think that cause and effect are being confused. I also fail to see how productive it is to assign blame in lieu of the search for solutions. It smacks of wallowing in our own failure to do better, and that is what seems like a “cop out” to me.

Posted by: Monolycus | May 24 2007 3:54 utc | 49

I can’t tell you how much I hate being a ‘yes’ man, it galls me to no end, (one for another time perhaps..) however, having said that, I resonate with and am in complete agreement yet again, with Monolycus @#49. Except for one thing. The only reason I myself haven’t fled this hollowed out stench filled dying republic is due to circumstances beyond my control at the moment, but I digress, my one exception to Monolycus’s comments above is that he doesn’t go far enough.
He writes, “But violence is not what has created and perpetuates the Bush administration… money is.”
Martin Luther King Jr. once said, “I am not interested in power for power’s sake, but I’m interested in power that is moral, that is right and that is good.” And that is where I think and feel you, Monolycus do not carry your thoughts far enough.
It isn’t merely gold these zealots are after, they have all the money and material things they will ever want or need. No, their cupidity is far above and beyond wealth. Their hunger for power and forced ideology has grown so insatiable that it has detached them from their own humanity. They want power for powers sake. A sort of messianic mania dementia. They are playing out their wounds, and have lost touch with all reality.
They see themselves as little gods, the tale of this semiotic tyranny of metonymy, the fragment and the overall loss of a soulful center or ‘soul’ for experience? They live in an artificial world. And we are their pets, their playthings.
The Buddhist’s call them hungry ghosts, the Lakota say they aren’t even ‘human beings’, which is to say, they–most of them– are not merely disconnected from themselves, but I suspect from birth and first breath they have never known safety or authentic love and compassion. Their’s is a dark eros. Never knowing what it means to be fully human. Only ever feeling objectified and in turn projecting their inner subjugation and cruelty onto everyone around them and objectifying others. Never introspective, never searching inward and I say most of them because, my gut intuition tells me, that our dopamine cowboy somewhere deep down in places he hasn’t visited since infancy is aware of his trauma. And I suspect he is being used, as much as his thinks he is using others.
Okay, now I’m sounding foo foo, but I think I got my point across however silly it sounds, and I’ll stop now.
I finish with this though, at the same time we are also working out our own wounds and denial, denial about what we thought this country was. Our own collective chapel perilous i.e., dark night of the soul, I’m looking at you Copeland. A deeper understanding of the way things never were, w/apologies to Stephanie Coontz. Last thing, because I’m freaking my own self out now…lol I simply can’t understand why people like slothop and others can still say with a straight face that all these events are happenstance or sheer incompetence, perhaps someday they will see the art in The Crisis of Democracy.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | May 24 2007 6:11 utc | 50

On national character: French speaking Switzerland is an acute example of arbitrary borders, a border that makes no sense under whatever angle one views it, even though it was negotiated by the two parties, F and CH (fallout of the treaty of Versailles, article 435 and ff) It has been necessary to set up a mad sprawl of legislation to, in effect, circumvent the treaty.
On the one hand, you have a region, with its roots: shared values, a shared history, geography, agriculture, and, in previous times, tight trade. Still, the border is there, an inalterable fact, not amenable to change, except insofar as the Swiss parts of it could secede, become independent and then join the EU, thereby becoming French without being subject to French legislation, a state of affairs seen as highly favorable by many (it is regularly proposed but cannot pass in the voting booth.) So around here, from after ww1, when the frontier became progressively more important (setting previous history aside..) it is possible to experience, or at least feel, partly understand, the impact of political structure and national belonging. The people themselves never chose to be divided in the way they are, except when viewing the matter as necessary within the larger scope of things.
National character has been shaped by the political structure largely thru the arm of universal, free, public education. Until 10 years ago, your Savoyard peasant (a dying breed!), your inhabitant of St. Gingolph (the village is bi-sected by the border!) was either French – smart, voluble, with a tendency to philosophise, nationalistic, individualistic, showy, pig-headed, attached to the good life and the proper way of doing things, and confrontational. Or Swiss: rooted in a region, not a nation, laconic, prudent, thorough, more modest, more insecure, and conducting his life in a spirit of negotiation and compromise, in a canny and sometimes tiresome way.
In St. Gingolph the French Mairie sports a french flag, a bust of Marianne, and soon, a ‘people’s president portrait’ of Sarkozy. You are in the presence of authority, faded pomp, you must mind your ps and qs. The Swiss authorities are invisible, and should you find anybody in – the door will be open – you will be offered coffee or white wine and asked to sing a few bars, and then be begged to join the local (Swiss) choir.
In this somewhat narrow sense one can speak of national character, molded from the top down. The US has managed its history and its internal divisions (slavery, immigrants, class, etc.) by creating a very strong national identity, based on values of freedom and equality – all that is missing is the ‘fraternité’ – which shows us that the US values are seen as attributed to the individual (liberalism) rather than, as in France, being a property of the collective body. The shaky democratic structure, which really doesn’t work too well, a ‘weak’ central Gvmt. coupled with the strong national values (individuals nevertheless cohere in groups according, of course, to their own ‘choices’), have seen to it that authority seeps away into the hands of interest groups (corps, think tanks, gvmt. agencies rather than central gov. itself, media, military industrial complex, etc. etc.) thereby, paradoxically, creating a socio-political culture that is sharply hierarchical and in effect, authoritarian, in its expression of unwritten power relations. We may note that Bush, but also Clinton before him (to go only that far back) have tried, and succeeded in part in formalizing the authoritarian structure in various ways (“King George”, etc.) By definition, that kind of transfer or consolidation of power (bottom-up, from the group to the nation, rendering the informal into law..) creates relations that are oppressive, occult, arbitrary, frightening (eg. no fly lists) as they are based on control and not participation. At the same time, this process must be veiled, and it must be ignored, as it is in contradiction to the core values that hold the country together. The only way around the contradiction is allegiance … The result is that the ‘people’ have lost their power, and are called on to adhere and believe in their “Government” or “leaders” in a blind way. And this, for the most part, they do, at least publically, preserving only the right to replace one leader with another…Turning their face away is too difficult; and private opposition is in any case allowed…Tackling complicity and consent plus imperialism would take another 3 chunky paragraphs..
My pen ran away with me..this is only one facet of course, even a minor one, there are many others, and I wasn’t trying to reify (sp?) national stereotypes, but I suppose that is clear…

Posted by: Noirette | May 24 2007 10:26 utc | 51

My pen ran away with me
i don’t think so!
excellent thread. thanks b.

Posted by: annie | May 24 2007 14:28 utc | 52

I simply can’t understand why people like slothop and others can still say with a straight face that all these events are happenstance or sheer incompetence,
because there’s not much proof. on the subject of divide & rule, for ex., all i’ve read suggests very little conspiracy, contrived by u.s., to create a civil war.
but i welcome the proof.

Posted by: slothrop | May 24 2007 16:57 utc | 53

Does Criminal Negligence qualify as intent?
Kelly, who was among the most senior Australian officers in Iraq during 2003 and 2004, was scathing of Rumsfeld’s role.
“If I look at people like Donald Rumsfeld, all I can say is, that verges on criminal negligence,” Kelly told the ABC of Rumsfeld’s failure to acknowledge problems in Iraq.
Kelly — an expert on the law of occupation and peacemaking operations with experience in Somalia, Bosnia and East Timor — said he offered a plan to stop looting and protect infrastructure soon after former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein was toppled.
“We knew exactly what needed to be done,” Kelly told the ABC.
“Then Rumsfeld came in and overruled that concept and basically threw it out the window and that was where things really started to go wrong,” he said.
Kelly described disbanding the Iraqi army as “a tragic mistake” which turned thousands of former soldiers against the coalition.

Posted by: anna missed | May 24 2007 18:20 utc | 54

@annie 52 – excellent thread. thanks b thanks – after you kicked my ass for launching that piece here …
@sloth 53 – because there’s not much proof
There has been so much proof that I see no need to refute you try here
@anna missed – 54 – Criminal Negligence
Invading and occupying Iraq WAS criminal intent supported by Kelly.
Why care if there was “criminal negligence” after doing the primary criminal act?
Kelly is just one of many obfuscating his criminal role in the empire by pointing to “badly done occupation” issues while he certainly would have done a “good occupation.”

Posted by: b | May 24 2007 19:10 utc | 55

after you kicked my ass
😉
it turned into a fruitful discussion. naturally i still agree w/myself. luckily for you all i censored myself by deciding against posting more of my rantings.

Posted by: annie | May 24 2007 19:26 utc | 56

no. negligence is not proof the u.s. deliberately foments civil war. and the “salvador option” would mean the u.s. has a proxy to fight its war. who’s the proxy in iraq? i don’t know. do you, b?
from the first, i thought w/ good reasons the u.s. would seek partition via dirty tricks. i think by this point all we can say is the u.s. wants some kind of (con)federalism to maintain iraq as a working state so that options are open to restore a less federal structure in the future. all the literature thus far supports the view that the pentagon in particular erratically supported preserving iraq in order to assuage regional concerns to avoid a fragmented iraq.
so, i was wrong the u.s. planned outright partition managed by divide & rule technique. i’m not happy to admit i’m wrong, it’s just the facts force reassessment. frankly, based on the available history of this catatrophe, all we can know for sure is that the civilian leadership in the pentagon in particular was and is spectacularly incompetent. rumsfeld, et al,. were no chthonic magi weaving conspiracies to trap the world in an ineluctable history favoring “empire.” no. these people are imbecils.

Posted by: slothrop | May 24 2007 20:22 utc | 57

anyhow, sorry to get off topic. but i don’t give a fuck, cuz i’m a violent american. can’t help it.

Posted by: slothrop | May 24 2007 20:26 utc | 58

#54 post was in reference to the incompetence issue —
“We knew exactly what needed to be done,” Kelly told the ABC.
“Then Rumsfeld came in and overruled that concept and basically threw it out the window and that was where things really started to go wrong,” he said.
It may not be evidence the U.S, deliberately fomented civil war (by this particular action/order) but it clearly shows an intent to oppose the effort to stop the chaos/looting. Deciding the resultant consequences would prove more acceptable than the effort to stop it.
As far as the “salvador option”, the proxie in this case is the Badr militia, which controls the Interior ministry through SCIRI. Which the U.S. supports in act and deed and sometimes with close air support.

Posted by: anna missed | May 24 2007 22:19 utc | 59

& a certain mr hakim who like to wash himself in american dollars

Posted by: remembereringgiap | May 24 2007 22:40 utc | 60

It may not be evidence the U.S, deliberately fomented civil war
oh please, elliot abrams is all about fermenting civil war, its the zionist foreign policy tactic of choice.

Posted by: annie | May 25 2007 0:47 utc | 61

Deciding the resultant consequences would prove more acceptable than the effort to stop it.
well we don’t know. possibly. why is it important to know that rummy et al. are venal incompetents? because the civil war may have meaning beyond the intrumental exploitation of it by americans. that is, the civil war may not have a whole lot to do with the machinations of “american empire.”
as for hakim, we don’t know enough to say he is in the pockets of americans? based on juan cole, for ex., such claims are acknowledged by him as at best speculative.

Posted by: slothrop | May 25 2007 1:04 utc | 62

as for hakim, we don’t know enough to say he is in the pockets of americans?
it has been documented bremmer appealed to hakim to use his badr brigades after the iraq army was disbanded. who knows what deals were made. maybe he is not ‘in the pocket’ of the US, maybe he is ‘in the pocket’ of iran. maybe neither. either way supporting militias w/sectarian influence seems destined for failure.
well we don’t know
always the benefit of the doubt. lol. under the radar warriors love a public like you..
who me?? nah, couldn’t be. over there, its just a coincidence!

Posted by: annie | May 25 2007 1:27 utc | 63

it has been documented bremmer appealed to hakim to use his badr brigades
hakim worked with sistani to turn bremer into sciri’s tool. hakim torpedoed cpa’s attempts to populate the council with secular shia and later, assured that shia representation was dominated by sciri via elections rather than the cpa-sponsored caucuses.
but i’d like to know more.

Posted by: slothrop | May 25 2007 1:46 utc | 64

I think the only context to consider the administrators of the occupation as “incompetent” is from the position of accomplishing the stated goals of reestablishing sovereignty, democracy, etc. by the white house. Such decision making process, like the looting, having failed early on to push Iraq in this desired direction, were nevertheless allowed to continue in a like manner (CPA,etc) and no remedial action was taken either against the likes of Rumsfeld, the field commanders, or other policy architects. So one can only assume then that the policy was indeed consistent with some desired outcome, although not publicly illustrated as such. Its not exactly a leap of faith, from this point, to infer from the actions taken, supported, and perpetuated — that these actions fit rather convincingly into traditional imperial occupational format.
Clearly, the looting was allowed to run rampant for the purposes of doing what the invasion itself failed to accomplish — the destruction of Iraqi infrastructure, archived Iraqi historical legacy, and any socialist remnants of the Saddam government. All of which were accomplished rather brilliantly in that the task was implemented by the Iraqi’s themselves, “free to do bad things” — liberating the U.S. of direct responsibility for the aftermath, which no doubt was the expected result.
Incompetence then, is simply an excuse for a failure to meet false expectations. Because the real expectations were met with brazen accuracy.

Posted by: anna missed | May 25 2007 2:16 utc | 65

Clearly, the looting was allowed to run rampant for the purposes
what purpose? what? please explain. how would cultural destruction benefit occupation? if the goal is genocide, then sure, makes sense. but, no sense if we are there “to get the oil.”

Posted by: slothrop | May 25 2007 2:57 utc | 66

fisk gives a heartbreaking account of the looting, which i posted. but there’s no obvious reason why the u.s. would want such chaos.
they didn’t have enough troops.

Posted by: slothrop | May 25 2007 2:59 utc | 67

slothrop- that’s what (neo)conquistador’s have done throughout history. destroy the traditional cultural artefacts so that theirs can take its place. it’s one way to exert control. this much is quite clear.

Posted by: b real | May 25 2007 3:29 utc | 68

smedley butler might agree with the headline

Posted by: jcairo | May 25 2007 9:13 utc | 69

Among four key predominantly Muslim countries — Iran, Pakistan, Egypt and Indonesia — the percentage which believes that there is never any justification for violent attacks on civilians is between 77-84%. By extremely stark contrast, the percentage of Americans who believe that such attacks are never justified is only 46%.

Greenwald

Posted by: b | May 25 2007 12:27 utc | 70

Rashid Khalidi on divide & rule in palestine, from his book The Iron Cage:

However, in order to complete this vision of a sort of modified Ottoman millet system,” with each group enjoying a certain element of autonomy, something in the way of religious institutions for Muslims and Christians to match the Jewish community’s newly recognized national institutions was needed. These would have to be offered in place of the Arab national institutions that [55] Palestinians, both Muslims and Christians, were clamoring for soon after the British occupation, titing British promises of independence to the Arabs and Article 4 of the Covenant of the League of Nations. Such national institutions the British were resolutely determined to deny the Arabs; complicating the task facing the British in constructing religious institutions to substitute for them was the faet that many merabers of the Palestinian middle and upper classes had lived, studied, worked in, or visited Egypt. They were therefore well aware of the Egyptian precedents, and of Britain’s notorious predilection for the polities of divide and rule, generally on a religious basis.” Thus, early after the British occupation, Palestinian politital figures set up Muslim-Christian Associations (and later a Palestinian Arab Congress) in major cities and towns all over the country as a means of countering an attempt to use this approach to divide the Palestinian Arabs along religious lines. This did not stop the British, who proceeded in the haphazard, nonsystematic fashion of British colonialism to construct an entirely new communitarian system that denied national rights to the Arabs while preserving them for the Jews.
What this meant in practice was the creation in Palestine of “Islamic” institutions that had no precedent in that country’s history, or indeed in the entirely of Islamic history. Among them was the Supreme Muslim Council (SMC), al-Majlis al-Islarm al-A’la. This entirely new body was given a variety of duties, including control over the revenues of Palestine’s public awgaf, which were generally supposed to go to charitable and other public service purposes. These considerable revenues had formerly been controlled by the Ottoman state’s central religious bureaucracy. To the SMC also accrued the significant patronage that came from control of appointments in an extensive religious bureaucracy that included qadis, merabers of the shari’a tourt of appeal, local muftis, as well as the employees of numerous schools, orphanages, religious centers, and other institutions. The council also had the power to hire and fire all awgaf and shari’a tourt officials employed With awgaf funds.

As we have seen, the British and the Zionists made efforts to play Palestinian leaders off against one another in order to exacerbate old rivalries, or create new ones as part of a strategy of divide and rule. That some of these rivalries existed before the British arrived is unquestionable, as is the fact that the Ottomans consistently played one notable faction off against another.” The British themselves were of course steeped in the time-honored imperial tradition of divide et impera, in Palestine and elsewhere.” It is difficult to verify the scope of such efforts, however, as the underhanded methods employed by officials in inflaming local tensions were generally considered highly confidential. Solid evidence of this type of activ- [70] ity is scant, thus the subject is rarely addressed in the literature on the period.

“no solid evidence.” it seems that all we can say about divide & rule is that occupiers play off “preexisting” tensions. but as khalidi points out over and over again, the results of such a dubious policy militated unfavorably for everyone.
reading through such accounts, one is struck by the saliency of class-conflict as an explanation of domination. the political class in palestine tended to align themselves with the class interests of occupation. a similar arg can be made wrt iraq, but in reverse: the tenuous accommodation of shia heightens class-conflict which in no way redounds to the benefit of occupation!

Posted by: slothrop | May 25 2007 15:58 utc | 71

destroy the traditional cultural artefacts
i don’t see this. in a country seldom demonstrating culural affinities integrating its disparate communities, the destruction of culture would seem to prove no point, for anyone.

Posted by: slothrop | May 25 2007 16:07 utc | 72

b
can we have a “all krauts are ill-humored snobby pussies” thread?
c’mon.

Posted by: slothrop | May 25 2007 16:15 utc | 73

slothrop
yr post @ 72 exhibits an ignorance bordering on barbarism

Posted by: remembereringgiap | May 25 2007 16:52 utc | 74

i don’t see this. in a country seldom demonstrating culural affinities integrating its disparate communities, the destruction of culture would seem to prove no point, for anyone.
There is also the hugely profitable aspect for the shady international art collector world. A one time chance to get a few shiny keepsakes from the birthplace of civilization at bargain basement prices. Ever see the Rockefeller collection? They didn’t democratically survey the willingness of the local populaces in parting with their cultural heritage when they made their aquisitions.
slothrop, why are you so eternally stupid? Stop reading all your books, and get out and experience the real world — in all its magnificent corruption — and learn something about life.

Posted by: Bob M. | May 25 2007 16:58 utc | 75

bob m
well fucking duh, bob. i want proof, beyond a snappy assimilation by you of the horrors of world conquest attributed to The White Man Abstraction, what benefit is derived by the occupation of the destruction of museums? i don’t know bob. i’m asking the question because the justification you give: it’s that way you know because Whitey does shit like that to make a Whitey world, is unsupported by reasons or proof wrt iraq. it may be true what you say-these foundational truths you discover in your walks through your neighborhood of reality, through the wounded knees of your mind, bob. but, really, this is how callow your response is: the museums were sacked to send artefacts to rockefeller’s art detention centers.
well, prove it, fucker.

Posted by: slothrop | May 25 2007 17:26 utc | 76

bob m
well fucking duh, bob. i want proof, beyond a snappy assimilation by you of the horrors of world conquest attributed to The White Man Abstraction, what benefit is derived by the occupation of the destruction of museums? i don’t know bob. i’m asking the question because the justification you give: it’s that way you know because Whitey does shit like that to make a Whitey world, is unsupported by reasons or proof wrt iraq. it may be true what you say-these foundational truths you discover in your walks through your neighborhood of reality, through the wounded knees of your mind, bob. but, really, this is how callow your response is: the museums were sacked to send artefacts to rockefeller’s art detention centers.
well, prove it, fucker.

Posted by: slothrop | May 25 2007 17:26 utc | 77

the policy of u s imperialism has always been to detroy without mercy – the economic, social & cultural base of the territories it conquers
it is true today in iraq as it was in the indian wars – the pulverisation of the culture is not incidental – it is wholly consistent
what the u s has done to afghan culture is every bit as barbaric as the blowing up of the bhuddas of bamiyan
this is not incopetence, tho of course that plays a part – master are not perfect & that has been true since the romans.
it is possible to be both violent & stupid. at the same time evidently
sloth yr position is becoming like some dream you are in inside a theory that doesn’t comprehend the circumstance especially in this week – when an american armada sails in the golf or hormuz, when its client state israel carries out its particular brand of mass murder, & when the us instrumentalises both the weak lebanese govt & its sunni hoods, fatah al islam. the us is nothing youy say, it is the bodyguard for capital – that is all – it does not initiate anything, it does not plan anything, it does not create policy – for you there is an international cabal of whom the u s is a servant who are the deciding factor – because they have shareholders to look after
for a rhetorician , you are not such a good economist. it seems at time that you have no comprehensive understanding of capital. not in any sense. there seems in your ‘economics’ – an absence of anything that has happened from the economic rationalists of the 50’s, the friedman fuckups of the 70’s, there is no michale milliken or ivan boesky or goldsmith, there is no hedge funds, on & on
as leonard cohen would say, come on, come on back, come on back to the war

Posted by: remembereringgiap | May 25 2007 18:06 utc | 78

The British Museum is of course chock full to the rafters with colonial plunder, as are most western museum collections the result of secondary market forces. Eventually, the newly “privatized” plunder from Iraqi museums will “highest bid” its way into collections in orbit just a tiny (& giant tax writeoff) step away from “institutionalized/legitimized” status, far, far away from Baghdad. A hallmark of the brave-new-neo-global-world is an unbending faith in the markets to always flow upward as if by magic levitation. Or cream always rises to the top, in more plebian parlance.
Which is not to say Donald Rumsfeld is driven by the prospects of acquiring a couple of old pots the old fashion way (by stealing them)– no, more likely such a policy is guided by the super sized mentality of both, knowing said pots will eventually find their rightful & true ownership via the market, while at the same time creating a cultural vacuum of want in the host nation. A void to then be filled by those same magic market forces of privatization and modernity. Or, in other words, the awe, in shock and awe. Once all the dead wood ( or brush?) had been cleared away.

Posted by: anna missed | May 25 2007 18:31 utc | 79

1. China – 1945 to 1960s: Was Mao Tse-tung just paranoid?
2. Italy – 1947-1948: Free elections, Hollywood style
3. Greece – 1947 to early 1950s: From cradle of democracy to client state
4. The Philippines – 1940s and 1950s: America’s oldest colony
5. Korea – 1945-1953: Was it all that it appeared to be?
6. Albania – 1949-1953: The proper English spy
7. Eastern Europe – 1948-1956: Operation Splinter Factor
8. Germany – 1950s: Everything from juvenile delinquency to terrorism
9. Iran – 1953: Making it safe for the King of Kings
10. Guatemala – 1953-1954: While the world watched
11. Costa Rica – Mid-1950s: Trying to topple an ally – Part 1
12. Syria – 1956-1957: Purchasing a new government
13. Middle East – 1957-1958: The Eisenhower Doctrine claims another backyard for America
14. Indonesia – 1957-1958: War and pornography
15. Western Europe – 1950s and 1960s: Fronts within fronts within fronts
16. British Guiana – 1953-1964: The CIA’s international labor mafia
17. Soviet Union – Late 1940s to 1960s: From spy planes to book publishing
18. Italy – 1950s to 1970s: Supporting the Cardinal’s orphans and techno-fascism
19. Vietnam – 1950-1973: The Hearts and Minds Circus
20. Cambodia – 1955-1973: Prince Sihanouk walks the high-wire of neutralism
21. Laos – 1957-1973: L’Armée Clandestine
22. Haiti – 1959-1963: The Marines land, again
23. Guatemala – 1960: One good coup deserves another
24. France/Algeria – 1960s: L’état, c’est la CIA
25. Ecuador – 1960-1963: A text book of dirty tricks
26. The Congo – 1960-1964: The assassination of Patrice Lumumba
27. Brazil – 1961-1964: Introducing the marvelous new world of death squads
28. Peru – 1960-1965: Fort Bragg moves to the jungle
29. Dominican Republic – 1960-1966: Saving democracy from communism by getting rid of democracy
30. Cuba – 1959 to 1980s: The unforgivable revolution
31. Indonesia – 1965: Liquidating President Sukarno … and 500,000 others
East Timor – 1975: And 200,000 more
32. Ghana – 1966: Kwame Nkrumah steps out of line
33. Uruguay – 1964-1970: Torture — as American as apple pie
34. Chile – 1964-1973: A hammer and sickle stamped on your child’s forehead
35. Greece – 1964-1974: “Fuck your Parliament and your Constitution,” said
the President of the United States
36. Bolivia – 1964-1975: Tracking down Che Guevara in the land of coup d’etat
37. Guatemala – 1962 to 1980s: A less publicized “final solution”
38. Costa Rica – 1970-1971: Trying to topple an ally — Part 2
39. Iraq – 1972-1975: Covert action should not be confused with missionary work
40. Australia – 1973-1975: Another free election bites the dust
41. Angola – 1975 to 1980s: The Great Powers Poker Game
42. Zaire – 1975-1978: Mobutu and the CIA, a marriage made in heaven
43. Jamaica – 1976-1980: Kissinger’s ultimatum
44. Seychelles – 1979-1981: Yet another area of great strategic importance
45. Grenada – 1979-1984: Lying — one of the few growth industries in Washington
46. Morocco – 1983: A video nasty
47. Suriname – 1982-1984: Once again, the Cuban bogeyman
48. Libya – 1981-1989: Ronald Reagan meets his match
49. Nicaragua – 1981-1990: Destabilization in slow motion
50. Panama – 1969-1991: Double-crossing our drug supplier
51. Bulgaria 1990/Albania 1991: Teaching communists what democracy is all about
52. Iraq – 1990-1991: Desert holocaust
53. Afghanistan – 1979-1992: America’s Jihad
54. El Salvador – 1980-1994: Human rights, Washington style
55. Haiti – 1986-1994: Who will rid me of this turbulent priest?
all this shit happened and it wasn’t Ireland, Norway or Estonia at the helm…
of course, no violence or threats thereof, just polite conversation over afternoon tea & crumpets

Posted by: jcairo | May 25 2007 18:38 utc | 80

idiot wind/colorado

Posted by: remembereringgiap | May 25 2007 19:20 utc | 81

in one of the important books tracking the museum plunder, the Looting of the Iraq Museum, Baghdad, shows that nothing can be said in a definitive way the looting was preferred by the occupation. much of the looting of antiquities appeared to be an inside job. elsewhere the burning of libraries seems to include organized destruction by baathists.

Posted by: slothrop | May 25 2007 19:48 utc | 82

which in no way mitigates culpability for war crimes commited by the occupation. the point is, bob’s claims are unsupported by facts. again.

Posted by: slothrop | May 25 2007 19:51 utc | 83

& speaking of islamic culture

Posted by: remembereringgiap | May 25 2007 20:05 utc | 84

inside jobs demonstrate the uncivilized tedencies of the “arab mind.”
like we didn’t have people bought off “inside.”
slothrop, you sound like the MSM. it’s all a he said, she said. no truth to be found or ascertained.
do you believe in global warming, slothrop, or are you in the alex cockburn, kurt nimmo school of that being a hoax too?

Posted by: Bob M. | May 25 2007 20:10 utc | 85

proof, reasons, bob.

Posted by: slothrop | May 25 2007 20:12 utc | 86

following your tendency of splitting comments up into countless pointless posts, it is refreshing to note that you have finally come around to the radical notion that the occupation is responsible for committing war crimes. Perhaps that is why you believe that they should remain?

Posted by: Bob M. | May 25 2007 20:16 utc | 87

slothrop
that is simply not true – there are a number of people including gilles keppel, chaterjee, naomi kilien – even yr beloved cockburns have written in detail of the sacking of baghdad – there is an article in harpers, sometime in 2004 by an archivist who is no friend of the iraqi
you are simply, on the facts – quite, quite wrong
& as i have sd the sacking of baghdad & the destruction of iraq culture & the murder of intellectuals was & remains the practical policy of the u s
i wonder what the fuck you are trying to make innocent – those who are clearly guilt of these crimes.
i would suggest you also read courrier diplomatique – it has an english version & there are many many sources who would make yr claim – seem quite sordid in its defence of u s armed force

Posted by: remembereringgiap | May 25 2007 20:18 utc | 88

oh, please use your delightful reportoire of réchauffé strucuralist cant when replying….just so that I can understand you more clearly when you sputter.

Posted by: Bob M. | May 25 2007 20:19 utc | 89

“the best book on the looting” – i have found in just 1/2 hourr research – that this book is of little value & has been described as little more than a cafe table book – here is just one sample by an archeologist,
“Not much that relates to the book’s title, April 27, 2005
By Near Eastern Archaeologist “Iraq Area Specialist” (USA) – See all my reviews
I pre-ordered this book and waited about a month or two for it to arrive. I was deeply disappointed when it came. Unfortunately, this book is not what it promises.
Very little of the book, perhaps a dozen or so pages (and this assessment is ‘liberal’) can actually be said to deal with the actual looting of the museum and there is little here that has not been fairly widely reported in the press.
Its main value is arguably that the majority of the chapters (i.e. the overwhelming portion of the book) offer a fairly good introduction to the periods of the history of what is now geographicaally caled Iraq. That being said, there are many better introductions to the subject.
The credentials of the editor seem to have a bit of ‘spin’ to them. I cannot comment on eveything the publishers blurb says in order to establish her authority, but I would point out the following. The flyleaf and publishers description tells us that the editor of the volume, Angela A. M. Shuster is the “editor of the award-winning preservation magazine ‘Icon’ and the ‘Explorers Journal’.” Icon is actually the quarterly report, in magazine format, of the World Monuments Fund, a New York based non-profit organization. The ‘Explorers Journal’, is the publication of the exclusive Explorers Club, also based in NY. These are hardly newstand publications, nor are they academic publications either. Disingenuous? You be the judge….
‘Archaeology’, which she is a Contributing Editor to, can at least be found at you some newsstands. This is the ‘popular’ publication of the American Institute of Archaeology, as opposed to their academic, peer-reviewed journal, called The American Jounal of Archaeology. I cannot comment on the rest of her bio.
This book, in my opinion is mostly just “packaging” and “promotion”. If a portion of the proceeds (as a sticker on the cover claims) were not promised to the State Board of Antiquities and Heritage of Iraq, I would be on my way to the post office to return it. I certainly cannot recommend it, even for the lay reader. ”
an archeologist

Posted by: remembereringgiap | May 25 2007 20:29 utc | 90

well, facts rgiap. whip em out.

Posted by: slothrop | May 25 2007 20:34 utc | 91

your conspiracy “theory” survives all contradictions. that’s what conspiracy theories do.
not one time here have you supported your “theory.” tho, your attack on marx was interesting, particularly after it was puncuated by your admission you don’t read marx.

Posted by: slothrop | May 25 2007 20:46 utc | 92

I guess the Marx I did actually read far exceeds the archeology you claim to have read.

Posted by: Bob M. | May 25 2007 20:56 utc | 93

well, facts rgiap. whip em out.
I’m sure yours is bigger, slothrop. whatever…

Posted by: Bob M. | May 25 2007 20:57 utc | 94

slothrop
i have with some insistance – sourced all i have sd here – one way or another. you on the contrary are like the press bureau of the foreign ministry of israel – just because you say it is so – it is supposed to be so.
when you have been confronted by the facts when represented by a p. chaterjee – you are silent as a a lamb – gilles keppel – it is as clear as day you have not read. even jason bourke’s work i imagine you steer clear from
no – it is you who never provides any detail, any specificity. you provoke & cajole & as bob m points out you shift when the attack hits too close to home & you respond brutishly as only an academic can
i do not believe in conspiracies but i do think i understand u s imperial power a great deal better than you. it comes from both theory & practice. i have a very strong feeling that you are a stranger to practice
& your endless defence of empire (that is to say that it doesn’t exist or it isn’t american) does not bear even the most salutary analysis. you are on a number of very important levels quite wrong.
you are wrong about the nature of the war
you are wrong about the consequences of the war
you are wrong about the political reasons for that war
you are wrong about the economic reasons for the war
you are wrong about the history of iraq ancient & contemporary
you are wrong about the particular history if shia & sunni islam – especially in iraq
you are wrong about the way this war is being prosecuted ( & in doing so you implicitly support all of the criminal activity carried out by the empire)
you are wrong about the specific security plans (co-option, instrumentalisation, death squads, salvado option etc)
you are wrong on the makeup & leadership of differing shia, sunni & nationalist groups (a naiveté of this is acceptable in part but you claim a superknowledge – which is clearly surdetermined)
you are wrong about the nature of war crimes & who commits them
on & on you errors accumulate into an avalanche

Posted by: remembereringgiap | May 25 2007 21:21 utc | 95

now, in the absence of any proof supporting the claim the u.s. intended to destroy iraqi culture, (which connects to the larger claim the “empire” divides and rules), you attack me for your own inadequacies. goddamn.
just back up your claims. christ. show mje something. anything. i’m ready.

Posted by: slothrop | May 25 2007 21:28 utc | 96

all those “you are wrongs”–i kicked your ass on all those.

Posted by: slothrop | May 25 2007 21:30 utc | 97

on the point “u.s. intended to permit museum looting because…” well, show me. seriously. stay focused. load bob’s crank pipe and send him over to the internet to cull the money quotes. let’s get this right.

Posted by: slothrop | May 25 2007 21:34 utc | 98

Ohh sloth suddenly is asking for facts.
Now how about this:
US lobby could threaten Iraqi heritage

Apparent lobbying by American art dealers to dismantle Iraq’s strict export laws has heightened fears about the looting of the country’s antiquities as order breaks down in the last stages of the war.

Dominque Collon, assistant keeper in the department of the ancient near east at the British Museum, said today that alarm bells had been set ringing by reports of a meeting between a coalition of antiquities collectors and arts lawyers, calling itself the American Council for Cultural Policy (ACCP), with US defence and state department officials before the start of the war. The group offered help in preserving Iraq’s invaluable archaeological collections, but archaeologists fear there is a hidden agenda to ease the way for exports post-Saddam.

Sunday Herald: US accused of plans to loot Iraqi antiques

It has emerged that a coalition of antiquities collectors and arts lawyers, calling itself the American Council for Cultural Policy (ACCP), met with US defence and state department officials prior to the start of military action to offer its assistance in preserving the country’s invaluable archaeological collections.
The group is known to consist of a number of influential dealers who favour a relaxation of Iraq’s tight restrictions on the ownership and export of antiquities. Its treasurer, William Pearlstein, has described Iraq’s laws as “retentionist” and has said he would support a post-war government that would make it easier to have antiquities dispersed to the US.

Posted by: b | May 25 2007 21:39 utc | 99

and let’s not lose the forest for trees. it’s important to know these minutiae of fuckups by occupation in order to understand the extent to which the u.s. is causing civil war. if you can produce x quote “rummy said we need to create a distraction of lootiong in order to steal antiquities for rockefeller” then you have a feather in your “empire” hat, rgiap.

Posted by: slothrop | May 25 2007 21:40 utc | 100