Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
January 22, 2007
Eat or Drive

As long as there are hungry people in this world, is there any moral justification to use eatable crops as fuel?

Corn prices have hit their highest levels in more than a decade, fueled by US government pressure for higher production of ethanol as an alternative power source for cars.
[…]

"The US is pivotal to the corn market, as it accounts for over 40 percent of global production and almost 70 percent of exports," said Helen Henton, head of commodity research at Standard Chartered Bank.

[…]
[E]thanol now consumes 20 percent of the US corn harvest, compared to six percent in 2000, according to USDA estimates.

In his State of the Union speech Tuesday, US President George W. Bush is expected to issue a new call for higher output of corn-derived ethanol to fuel US automobiles and so lessen the country’s reliance on imported petroleum.

In a speech this month, Agriculture Secretary Mike Johanns said that six years ago, the United States had 54 ethanol plants capable of pumping out less than two billion gallons (7.6 billion liters) a year.

Today, more than 100 plants now produce a combined total of more than five billion gallons per year.

"More than 70 additional plants are under construction, expected to increase our production capacity by eight billion gallons. That, ladies and gentlemen, is a lot of corn," Johanns said.

[…]
In Mexico, trades unions plan to lead mass protests on January 31 against steep rises in the price of corn tortillas, which have prompted the government to impose price caps on the country’s staple food.

Allendale market analyst Joe Victor said that world stocks of corn are "historically tight" at 86 million tonnes now, compared to a previous low of 89 million in 1983.
Link

The first-world farmers are happy to get their fruits subsidized when they convert them to ethanol. Even when the energy balance of producing ethanol is doubtable, especially when considering the use of high-energy fertilizers. There is quite a debate about this.

Unfortunatly the question of eat or drive will not arise for a single person. Those who decide to drive their SUVs will not lack the food or the money to pay for a meal. They may not even be aware that they are burning other peoples dinner.

But the backslash of global warming and hunger elsewhere will reach the first-world too, through famines, wars and the resulting mass migrations.

Comments

Bush faces pressure on carbon emissions

Ten of the biggest US companies, including Alcoa, General Electric and Lehman Brothers, will on Monday pile pressure on President George W. Bush to take more aggressive action on climate change.
They will urge him to embrace a system of mandatory caps on greenhouse gas emissions designed to cut them by up to 30 per cent over the next 15 years.

US corporate interest has been driven by self interest, and concern about the patchwork of regulations initiated by states in the absence of a federal programme.
The Uscap report follows a report last month from the Energy Security Leadership Council, a coalition of 16 business leaders and retired generals. It called for a 4 per cent annual rise in the fuel economy standard for vehicles, more drilling and new tax incentives for renewable fuels.

(Partly) right call for the wrong reasons …

Posted by: b | Jan 22 2007 19:37 utc | 1

The ethanol fuels shows better then most things how interconnected our world is and how most of our richness does not come from efficiency but from other peoples plates. Our modern techno-civilization allows us to miss this fact, to ignore how much the poor works to keep us rich. Not only is the products arriving here a result of back-breaking labor but our practises sends pollution back. Global climate change is on of the most glaring examples but there are many more.
The oil bonanza – were we have used up rare chemicals that happened to be very good for fuel – coming to an end makes this more obvious. We no longer can use oil (ignoring environmental and political consequences were that oil originated) so we must find something else to haul our transports. To actually put people in front of cars, hauling them step by step would both go to slow and would put the collective us who can afford both computers and cars in risk of revolt. Better then to have production of energy – conversion of manual labor to ethanol – in some good-forsaken country and just ship the energy.

Posted by: a swedish kind of death | Jan 22 2007 19:42 utc | 2

Not just whether to eat or not, but what to eat: a great deal of the world’s grain crops go to feed livestock for meat. But then again, a lot of the world’s oil is used to grow the grain that we use to produce cattle feed/SUV juice.

Posted by: ralphieboy | Jan 22 2007 20:20 utc | 3

The unspoken assumption behind global capitalism is that there is no whole earth to consider, that there are only the parts of the planet that each corporation deems salable, fungible, viable, valuable. What remains after extraction of resources is not considered a living environment for other human beings; it is considered a public relations or a lobbying issue. The way to deal with whatever remains is to evade responsibility for it. Buy the local government if you have to, but keep the consequences of doing business off the books.
If this business ethic reminds you of the behavior of pirates, you are not alone.
But that is the corporate ethos. No responsible corporation, and no responsible corporate officer, can act beyond the bottom line. The only reason a corporation exists is to maximize profits for its owners, and those profits lie in growing market share, productivity, and profitability — not in looking out for anybody else out there.
The only rational impetus for a corporation to worry about global warming, climate changes, revolutions, or impoverished people is if those categories of planetary variables represent some level of risk to the bottom line. Then they become real, and subject to risk assessment and risk management. They need to be eliminated if business is to stay profitable.
Given the size and scope of multi-nationals today, the wholesale co-opting of governments in every corner of the world is just a normal part of doing business. Business becomes government. As naturally as water soaks the ground, corporate money soaks into every level of government, bending it, twisting it, staffing it for its own ends and profits. Everybody wins except the people who aren’t in on this cornered market.
Bucky Fuller said this madness of corporate rule, of rule by psychopathic legal entities, would continue until it was universally recognized as madness. He gave it fifty years, back in the Seventies.
I read an article this morning about mining asteroids commercially, for their minerals. By 2020, it said, we will be extracting ore from asteroids, pulling it to earth by space tugs, building skyscrapers ten miles high on the moon, and riding elevators into earth orbit.
I read in another article that the landfills of today will become the mines of tomorrow by 2020. Everything will be be made of old stuff, and then be made into other stuff when its time comes. A world without garbage. A world where tossing stuff is a crime.
I got a call from the local Chamber of Commerce, inviting me to a seminar on “Joining the Asian Bonanza” How to ship your manufacturing jobs overseas, and just do the accounting here in America.
I got a call from the local Food Bank, asking me to contribute food or money for local people whose jobs have been shipped overseas.
Is it any wonder I hear voices?

Posted by: Antifa | Jan 22 2007 20:52 utc | 4

An historical perspective: during the great potato famine in Ireland, grain was exported from Ireland, under armed guard.
Note that is was grain — the inhabitants were expected to live off of potatoes. Grain was the money crop.
Also, reports about the actual and very real starvation was pooh-poohed in England, even as the reality unfolded in human tragedy.
Humans are a wierd lot, compasionate and heartless within the same breath.

Posted by: Chuck Cliff | Jan 22 2007 21:11 utc | 5

One possible benefit from this could be that high fructose corn syrup will rise in price and be used less than it is now in processed food and drinks. Traditional sugar imports from developing countries could rise if US protection is reduced on sugar beets. A small mitigating factor in an area with few good alternatives.

Posted by: biklett | Jan 22 2007 23:43 utc | 6

How about some Natural Capitalism?

Capitalism, as practiced, is a financially profitable, nonsustainable aberration in human development. What might be called “industrial capitalism” does not fully conform to its own accounting principles. It liquidates its capital and calls it income. It neglects to assign any value to the largest stocks of capital it employs—the natural resources and living systems, as well as the social and cultural systems that are the basis of human capital.
But this deficiency in business operations cannot be corrected simply by assigning monetary values to natural capital, for three reasons. First, many of the services we receive from living systems have no known substitutes at any price; for example, oxygen production by green plants…..

Paul Hawkens, Amory Lovins (gotta love this guy), and L. Hunter Lovins

Posted by: catlady | Jan 23 2007 0:02 utc | 7

Al Gore says civilization can’t continue operating planet earth like a business in liquidation. Good diary on dkos today discussing Gore’s thoughts about the stock market as functionally insane, in a December 06 presentation at Harvard B School.
Not sure if this should be posted on the Primaries thread or here, but Gore also makes the point that

the stock market is “functionally insane” … and what is needed is a new approach to measuring value… Over thirty years ago the average stock holding period was seven years while today the average mutual fund turns over its entire portfolio in less than eleven months. This speculation, or “chasing of the froth” as he refers to it, ignores the environment, communities, social welfare, and other important factors that have real value.

Posted by: conchita | Jan 23 2007 0:38 utc | 8

first we had food crops, then cash crops, and now fuel crops.
and anything thats a major cash crop today is about as closely related to the original product as the Sahara is to the North Pole.

Posted by: jony_b_cool | Jan 23 2007 1:27 utc | 9

Couldn’t biomass crops as farm subsidies be a good thing for places where American and European firms import their farm products and make it impossible for small-scale local farmers to compete — “economy of scale” –American and Europeans are the Wal-Marts of agriculture and places like Jamaica are the small town bizzes that get destroyed.
anyway, again, hemp not corn makes sense because of its mulitiple uses (esp. as fiber…I’ve mentioned this before. it doesn’t need petrochemical pesticides and it can be grown in many places.
as De and others have mentioned too, large-scale ag. wastes enormous amts of fuel exporting products unnecessarily. Local produce is the future, no matter what, because of the monsantoization of genetic diversity.
however, as ralphieboy noted, the biggest waste of agricultural lands goes toward feeding and maintaining livestock.
which reminds me, courtesy of askod, the mcdonald’s game. See how many rain forests you fell to keep the system going. (watch out for those cows.)

Posted by: fauxreal | Jan 23 2007 1:30 utc | 10

catlady #7. i read a wonderful piece about amory lovins (mr green) in the current newyorker this weekend. looked it up to post here but it is not online.
‘gotta love him’ is right!

Posted by: annie | Jan 23 2007 1:42 utc | 11

This discussion seems to me to be extremely “Westcentric” We just cannot imagine that other peoples with different approaches may create different forms of social arrangements. The discussion tends to imagine how we could keep our way of thinking and living with other methods of production. I find the idea of relying on agriculture to provide us with the fundamental aspects of culture extremely exciting from the standpoint of showing a regression towards the medieval and the feudal. But I keep in mind that perhaps some enterprising Africans might decide to use the sunny expanses of the Sahara for the transformation of sunlight into electricity. I don’t know the future nor can imagine it but it is our social arrangement that is in doubt. Mankind either modifies itself or disappears and the modificatriuon will be considerable richer in content than trying to move SUV with “biodiesel” or ethanol.. I am optimistic but all social transformations occur on “the butcher block of History”.

Posted by: jlcg | Jan 23 2007 1:47 utc | 12

can’t pass up an opportunity to pimp my favorite site after moa – bigpicture.tv. for those interested, check out their interview with amory lovins. unfortunately, there is no transcript available, but i often listen while cooking or cleaning up. not sure where the pentagon comes in, but their description of him and the interview follows:

Amory Lovins is one of the world’s foremost energy consultants and is the CEO of Rocky Mountain Institute, based in Colorado. His work focuses on developing advanced resource productivity and energy efficiency. His many innovations have won major awards around the world and Newsweek Magazine has praised him as “one of the Western world’s most influential energy thinkers.”
Amory Lovins talks about his latest book “Winning the Oil Endgame,” co-sponsored by the Pentagon. In it, Dr. Lovins lays out a strategy to reduce drastically America’s foreign oil dependency over the coming decades. He explains how this can be done through the implementation of a combination of fuel efficiency and clean energy systems. He sets out an alternative business case for proseperous US automobile, truck and aircraft industries – one that will make the US more self-sufficient. Americans have a choice, he says: either to import efficient cars to displace foreign oil, or to manufacture efficient cars themselves and import neither the oil nor the cars.
Recorded in October 2004

lovin’s rocky mountain institute website
lovin’s book – winning the oil endgame

Posted by: conchita | Jan 23 2007 1:59 utc | 13

awesome conchita! thanks

Posted by: annie | Jan 23 2007 2:39 utc | 14

jlcg @12, point well taken. i’d also like to suggest janine benyus and her work in biomimicry – interview with her as well at bigpicture.tv.

Janine Benyus is co-founder of the Biomimicry Guild, where she works as a biologist helping designers and engineers learn from nature’s design solutions. She is the author of several books, including “Biomimicry: Innovation Inspired by Nature.” She is also a public speaker and has given lectures to a number of large organizations and corporations including Nike, Novell, Proctor & Gamble, Patagonia and Interface Carpets.
Janine Benyus describes how biomimicry works, pointing to its origins in early human history. She explains how and why western industrial nations are only now rediscovering the profound implications that biomimicry has for the future of design. She then highlights examples that illustrate how biomimicry has led to the creation of world famous buildings and other innovations.

Posted by: conchita | Jan 23 2007 2:39 utc | 15

reading this lovins quote

Americans have a choice, he says: either to import efficient cars to displace foreign oil, or to manufacture efficient cars themselves and import neither the oil nor the cars.

reminds me, for whatever reason, of chomsky & herman’s propaganda model — “serviceability to power is a basic factor influencing the media product.” thus, when lovins frames the permissable solutions w/i such a narrow range of choices – either we import better cars for individuals or we build better cars for individuals – servicability to the power status quo remains unquestioned. this is an illustration of limiting discourse and, hence, thinkable thought, and presents absolutely no challenge to the ideological deadend which has backed us into this corner in the first place. it also brings to mind some of those bioneer programs, featuring techno-utopians who are on the verge of finding the solution for better living thru the application of hi-tech sciences infused w/ an ecological outlook, yet still internalizing the basic fundamentals of the classical economics mythos.

Posted by: b real | Jan 23 2007 3:55 utc | 16

b real, i don’t disagree, lovin’s book was co-sponspored by the pentagon, no? he is definitely operating within a paradigm that is acceptable (eventually) to the ptb. i have to admit i was thinking that he might represent a good half-way point – one which might more easily motivate the mainstream to make a difference (while the ptg continue to control and profit off our resources), but then i read the following:

Dr. Lovins talks about the surprises he encountered while researching his latest book “Winning the Oil Endgame.” He explains how he hadn’t fully anticipated that the weight of an average car could be reduced by as much as half through the use of ultra-light materials. The scope for economising in the use of energy is equally dramatic, beginning with the wasteful practices of the electricity generators. He finishes by talking about the enormous potential for the production in the US of bio-fuels such as Corn Ethanol.

hmm.

Posted by: conchita | Jan 23 2007 6:52 utc | 17

EEstor: More Clues Emerge
In Pay No Attention to the General as “Liberals” Launch Green Energy Fund, I attempted to show that EEstor is a “connected” front for the release of military technology into the private sector. Now, in the following MIT Technology Review article, we learn that EEstor’s CEO previously worked for TRW. Although TRW has been sold off into several companies, for decades TRW served as one of the main vectors for delivering military technology to the private sector (automotive, electronics, telecom); that is, privatizing innovations that had been developed in secret, with public funds.
To sum up: We have a company developing the “holy grail” of energy storage devices, with a CEO who formerly worked for TRW, with the financial backing of a venture capital firm that has Colin Powell, a former four star U.S. Army general and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, on its board. In Texas.
Richard Weir, EEStor’s cofounder and chief executive, says he would prefer to keep a low profile and let the results of his company’s innovation speak for themselves.
No shit.
Indeed, people might be so dazzled by the black box that they won’t bother to look into the black bag ops that got the thing built.
And why now? So you and I can drive our electric cars around? Right?
Let’s look at couple of quotes from the article. You’ll love this:

“It’s really tuned to the electronics we attach to it,” explains Weir. “We can go all the way down from pacemakers to locomotives and direct-energy weapons.”

and…

“I have no doubt you can develop that kind of [ceramic] material, and the mechanism that gives you the energy storage is clear, but the first question is whether it’s truly applicable to vehicle applications,” Burke says, pointing out that the technology seems more appropriate for utility-scale storage and military “ray guns,” for which high voltage is an advantage.

Well, well, well… We already know that Americans will soon be saying hello to the goodbye weapon, and who wouldn’t enjoy a missile punch at bullet prices?


In other words, the touchy-feely, clean green electric Hummers of the future are going to be spunoff from Pentagon death ray and super cannon projects. (Same as it ever was.) The military needs the energy density that this EEstor thing provides for weapon systems. Weirdly, there was no mention of the autonomous hunter/killer robots. Oh yes, those projects need power too…
What else is there to learn about EEstor? (And, yes, that’s the right page. They just don’t have any information on it.)
via :MIT Technology Review:

A secretive Texas startup developing what some are calling a “game changing” energy-storage technology broke its silence this week. It announced that it has reached two production milestones and is on track to ship systems this year for use in electric vehicles.
EEStor’s ambitious goal, according to patent documents, is to “replace the electrochemical battery” in almost every application, from hybrid-electric and pure-electric vehicles to laptop computers to utility-scale electricity storage.
The company boldly claims that its system, a kind of battery-ultracapacitor hybrid based on barium-titanate powders, will dramatically outperform the best lithium-ion batteries on the market in terms of energy density, price, charge time, and safety. Pound for pound, it will also pack 10 times the punch of lead-acid batteries at half the cost and without the need for toxic materials or chemicals, according to the company.
The implications are enormous and, for many, unbelievable. Such a breakthrough has the potential to radically transform a transportation sector already flirting with an electric renaissance, improve the performance of intermittent energy sources such as wind and sun, and increase the efficiency and stability of power grids–all while fulfilling an oil-addicted America’s quest for energy security.
The breakthrough could also pose a threat to next-generation lithium-ion makers such as Watertown, MA-based A123Systems, which is working on a plug-in hybrid storage system for General Motors, and Reno, NV-based Altair Nanotechnologies, a supplier to all-electric vehicle maker Phoenix Motorcars.
“I get a little skeptical when somebody thinks they’ve got a silver bullet for every application, because that’s just not consistent with reality,” says Andrew Burke, an expert on energy systems for transportation at University of California at Davis.
That said, Burke hopes to be proved wrong. “If [the] technology turns out to be better than I think, that doesn’t make me sad: it makes me happy.”
Richard Weir, EEStor’s cofounder and chief executive, says he would prefer to keep a low profile and let the results of his company’s innovation speak for themselves. “We’re well on our way to doing everything we said,” Weir told Technology Review in a rare interview. He has also worked as an electrical engineer at computing giant IBM and at Michigan-based automotive-systems leader TRW.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Jan 23 2007 7:19 utc | 18

grrr, here’s the missing link from my post above..Say Hello to the Goodbye Weapon

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Jan 23 2007 7:30 utc | 19

Well, if the movement to use corn for fuel trumps the use of corn to make high-fructose corn syrup, I’m all for it. There is speculation that the use of corn syrup in way too many foods and beverages is fueling the obesity epidemic, and I am halfway to believing that.
Let’s fuel vehicles instead and find out.

Posted by: Scorpio | Jan 23 2007 19:17 utc | 20

except that, from an article I read likely via Uncle $cam, it would mean planting the entire area east of the Mississippi just to feed the cars in Florida alone…

Posted by: gmac | Jan 24 2007 12:05 utc | 21

Our January Exit Poll was: “Would you give up your SUV to halt mass murder in Nigeria and Colombia? C’mon, tell the truth.” We received the following responses:

interesting links in the post, including this one from brian tokar: THE REAL SCOOP ON BIOFUELS: “Green Energy” Panacea or Just the Latest Hype? which is an adaptation of a longer article tokar wrote The New Energy Debates: Will the new Congress act to change our disastrous energy policy?

Are these reasonable tradeoffs for a troubled planet, or merely another corporate push for profits? Two recent studies aim to document the full consequences of the new biofuel economy and realistically assess its impact on fuel use, greenhouse gases and agricultural lands. One study, originating from the University of Minnesota, is moderately hopeful in the first two areas, but offers a strong caution about land use. The other, from Cornell University and UC Berkeley, concludes that every domestic biofuel source—those currently in use as well as those under development—produce less energy than is consumed in growing and processing the crops.
Are these reasonable tradeoffs for a troubled planet, or merely another corporate push for profits? Two recent studies aim to document the full consequences of the new biofuel economy and realistically assess its impact on fuel use, greenhouse gases and agricultural lands. One study, originating from the University of Minnesota, is moderately hopeful in the first two areas, but offers a strong caution about land use. The other, from Cornell University and UC Berkeley, concludes that every domestic biofuel source—those currently in use as well as those under development—produce less energy than is consumed in growing and processing the crops.

Posted by: b real | Jan 24 2007 19:18 utc | 22

b real, been meaning to post this article on a company investing in ethanol plants from the seattle times earlier this week. ethanol just another corporate push for profits?

They visit rural counties around the nation, romancing eager officials with plans to build a billion-dollar string of ethanol plants that will create jobs, gobble up locally raised corn, and put the town on alternative energy’s leading edge. Their backer, they say, is a technology billionaire from India.

several years ago i produced a commercial for the state of wisconsin promoting sustainable energy policies and practices. i was a bit distracted by my production responsibilities but i do remember being told by the client that there were serious drawbacks to both biomass and ethanol. back then the state of wisconsin was light years ahead of the rest of the country – very impressive, made me think about moving there.

Posted by: conchita | Jan 24 2007 23:07 utc | 23

Scorpio,
another theory has it that not enough exercise is fueling obesity. Bikes might be a cure. (Thought it might be wise to cut down on the corn syrup just in case.)

Posted by: a swedish kind of death | Jan 25 2007 0:45 utc | 24

the real problem is the question will mot be posed to the denizens of Affluentia as “either you eat or you drive.” that would be a no brainer for all but a lunatic fringe who want to be buried in their motor vehicles.
the question will be posed, or rather will be left tacitly just underneath the table of public discourse, as “either tnThey eat or We drive.” and that, as we see around us every day, is also a no brainer. let millions die, we want our SUVs and MickeyDs.

Posted by: DeAnander | Jan 25 2007 22:40 utc | 25

eat or drive: the economics of genocide in action
another example of the genre is the stern review, which claims that 550ppm concentration of CO2 in the earth’s atmosphere will be ok – even though it could entail at 3 deg C rise in global av temp, and wipe out half the world’s population

Posted by: Dismal Science | Jan 26 2007 19:16 utc | 26

good article in the financial times on ethanol and biomass fuel production, its proponents and its effects.

Ethanol evangelists such as Vinod Khosla, the Silicon Valley venture capitalist, sense a vast potential market. Mr Khosla wants Europe to match the US initiative by requiring the use of 100bn litres of alternative fuels. “If the US and Europe both set this goal, we could be independent
of oil. It would be a $150bn market that would attract entrepreneurs with new technologies,” he says.
Put this way, what is not to like? The world gets a source of fuel for cars, perhaps even trains and aircraft, and reduces carbon dioxide emissions from fossil fuels. Europeans like it because it reduces global warming and Americans gain their goal of energy independence from the Middle East. Scientists get research grants and venture capitalists make fortunes. Bring it on.
At the moment, however, it is more like a gold rush. The west wants to emulate Brazil, where cars run on ethanol refined from sugar cane. But there is no cane, so biofuel is being refined from what is available, corn kernels are distilled to make ethanol in the US and rapeseed to make biodiesel in Europe. Arable crops are being taken from people’s mouths and put into their fuel tanks instead.

… Alberto Weisser, chief executive of Bunge, which together with Cargill and Archer Daniels Midland processes most crops in the US and Europe. ADM has led the ethanol rush and Bunge is building two ethanol and two biodiesel refineries in the US. Biofuel demand means new business but the Brazilian-born Mr Weisser is not wholly comfortable.
“My biggest concern is that I do not want a gold rush to start that gives biofuels a negative reputation,” he says. His worry is that demand for biofuels is raising the price of crops and having unintended consequences for food supplies. He estimates that 60 per cent of rapeseed in Europe is being converted into biodiesel. This has led food companies to import palm oil, which is less healthy for people
than vegetable oil.
Biofuels are also a boondoggle for farmers. The US imposes a tariff on imports of Brazilian ethanol and subsidises domestic corn growers to grow crops for ethanol refining. This has some, although not a lot of,logic in terms of US energy independence. But it makes things worse for carbon
emissions since it is far more efficient to produce ethanol from sugar cane than from corn kernels. Indeed, refining ethanol from corn seems hardly worth the effort. To grow and refine enough corn to make 1.3 units of energy from ethanol takes at least one unit of fossil fuel, estimates Gregory Stephanopoulos, a professor at MIT. As a gallon of ethanol
puts out about 30 per cent less energy than a gallon of petrol, the 5bn gallons of ethanol produced in the US last year only displaced 1bn gallons of petrol.
This is where the space race comes in. Biomass is far more efficient as a source of fuel than corn: instead of getting 1.3 units of biofuel energy from one of fossil fuel, it is possible to get four or five. This changes the equation. Instead of having to devote a large swath of North America to
corn-growing in order to make a dent in consumption of petrol, the US could grow smaller areas of prairie grasses and leave corn alone.
Unfortunately, mass production of biomass fuel is some way off yet. Technological advances are needed to get enough out of plant cellulose to allow ethanol to be distilled on an industrial scale. MIT’s scientists and Silicon Valley entrepreneurs are going to have to crack some obstacles
before the tussle between food companies and ethanol refiners for supplies of corn and seeds can end.

Posted by: conchita | Jan 29 2007 22:47 utc | 27