Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
December 21, 2006
Remembering

by b real

At counterpunch on wednesday is a piece that fits in w/ what our compañero r’giap reminds us is one of the primary functions of this site – remembering.

the article is a remembrance of & rumination on the recent passing over of the seneca activist scholar john mohawk, John Mohawk and the Power to Make Peace. mohawk was an editor & reporter at akwesasne notes, the largest native american newspaper at the time & which was right there to capture & contribute to much of the revived american indian activism in the late-60’s thru the 1970’s. he was later a columnist at indian country today. he also contributed a lot to the seminal volume basic call to consciousness, a classic work, part of which can be read  here. (indian country today’s obit)

the counterpunch article brings up the role of the peacemaker & the parallel to today’s sitch, which is a connection i made in the autumn whispers thread. and it also reaffirms one of the themes of the text that i laid out there.

At his 60th birthday party we were talking about what it was like to look back. I mentioned that I had seen his name that day in an encyclopedia article as an ideologue of the American Indian Movement. He talked about changes he had seen in radicalism. ‘What,’ I asked him, ‘is an aspiring radical to do today?’ ‘Change their stories,’ he told me."

tuesday’s democracynow played
a brief excerpt from a talk that mohawk gave in november at the teach-in ‘Indigenous Peoples’ Resistance to Economic Globalization: a Celebration of Victories, Rights and Cultures." it’s short, so i’ll quote it in full so you don’t need to follow the link.

Racism has historically been a thing experienced by non-white people, but let’s be clear about this, two things about this. One is that ideology that it’s proposing is an ideology. It’s basically saying essentially that all the non-white peoples in the world are not entitled to own whatever it is they have. And it also is making the corollary kind of  proposition that the group that’s in the aggressive position has a right and that this right is undeniable. Notice that the right also has an implementation form to it, that the right has the requiremento: we’re going to use military force to enforce this right.

And that when we think of as racism, which has always been the sort of scornful denigration of people of a different race, has its roots in but is distinct from white supremacy. I point that out because white supremacy is an ideology that can be embraced by people of color. People of color — I think we already know there are people of color in the world who agree with it. Some of them are pretty big important Americans, as a matter of fact.

OK, so a lot of things are going to happen after this. I mean, we’re going to have — when we get to the United States, we’re going to have a claim of something which is called American civilization, and American civilization is going to claim to have a right to all the lands of the Indians in the United States. And, of course, the American civilization has a rationalization for a lot of bad things, things like the removal policy and things like the Indian war thing, and things like the forced assimilation policy.

All of those flow from an ideology of white supremacy, which was the dominant ideology of race theory in the United States in the 19th century. I point this out, because it seems to me that the moment we’re looking at is a proposal that peoples of the world, distinct peoples of the world have a right to a continued existence as distinct peoples. And I point to you that the white supremacy argument offers no such rights. It doesn’t offer any rights to a distinct existence — a continued existence of other species, of birds, animals, plants and whatever, fishes. It is a theory that says that one group has the absolute unhindered right to do what they need to do to get what they want.

What do they want? They want the wealth of the world. The other thing is that the requiremento is still there. In fact, the requiremento is embodied in the rules and thinking that gave rise to the World Trade Organization. It’s not that there’s simply an ideology. There’s an enforcement mechanism for the ideology. This is a compulsive ideology. It says that you must comply. You have to belong to this
thing. Everything that you have has to come into our purvey. You have to join our system of domination and actually extinction.

requiremento = "The conquistadores approached many of the indigenous communities with a priest who read a document called the Requiremento, a demand that the people come forth with their bodies and souls and all their property and offer these to the service of the Spanish crown or the Spanish would attack. It was read in Latin as prelude to an orgy of rape, plunder, and genocide. source

and a good many of those who did submit were still wiped out. it may just as well have been read in kiswahili … the presuppositions of cultural & racial superiority have hardly changed though.

peering into the past – going back to the original anti-americans! – i recently spent some time reading on events in late 18th century north america in which i more than once stopped to say "man, does that ever sound familiar" and which i’d like to share, as they fit in very well w/ the stories we tell ourselves about globalization & imperialism, and, perhaps, events in iraq. here’s the context – the
book: a spirited resistance: the north american indian struggle for unity, 1745-1815, by gregory evans dowd.

the setting: the trans-appalachian borderlands circa the 1790s up to the war of 1812, beginning in the immediate period after the defeat of an earlier wave of pan-indianism, as north american influence was gaining strength, in part due to the diminishing presence of the british & spanish, being pulled away by wars back home. w/i the indian communities, divisions between militant and  accomodationist factions ebbed back toward those neutralists who sought ways to appease the encroaching americans following the devestating loss by the nativist pan-indian forces at fallen timbers.

As European power in Indian country ebbed through diplomatic channels, American power flowed aggressively to replace it. It flowed directly into Indian councils, where it found considerable Native American tolerance, if not support.

Indians believing in the need for the conscious adaptation of European ways, many of whom had once, when armed from Europe, willing to league with nativists against the United States, now sought to come to terms with the republic. American agents, paid by the federal government, worked closely with these Indian leaders. Their combined efforts promoted a mission of "civilization." Rapidly among the Cherokees
but with less success among Creeks, Shawnees, and Delawares, the "plan of civilization," supported by the federal government and by several churches, became
rooted in tribal government.

Among all the involved peoples, however, including the republic’s citizens, the civilizing mission met a thicket of difficulties. … An essential motivation of the mission, the assumed superiority of Anglo-American culture, entangled it from the start, for the missionaries’ conviction of their religious and cultural superiority alienated the targeted peoples. This was as true of non-religious agents as it was of the religious missionaries.

Once they undertook the mission, they never adequately reconciled their aims with their methods. In what one scholar calls a "lapse in logic," these Americans sought to make good citizens out of the Indians, but employed coercion, cajolery, and deception to do so.
The agents were under great pressure from American governments – territorial, state, and federal – to accomplish their task, with the understanding that it would increase the land available to the republic.
Governments and missionaries alike claimed that if Indian men abandoned hunting and took up they plow, they could live well, and on less land. The surplus lands would then come up for grabs. In practice, the process inverted. Pressured by their land-hungry countryment, American agents among the Indians obtained land cessions from impoverished Indians even before the successful conversion of Indian men into yeomen farmers. To justify the inversion, the mission’s proponents came to argue that by restricting Indian land they restricted Indian hunting and thereby compelled Indian men to farm. The American acquisition of Indian land perversely took on a philanthropic guise: taking became giving.

As early a professional historian of the era as Henry Adams noticed the moral contradictions within the civilizing mission. Adams discovered that although President Thomas Jefferson had advocated the establishment of an Indian farming class, he had sought to do so through the manipulation of Indian debt. In Adam’s words, Jefferson "deliberately ordered his Indian agents to tempt the tribal chiefs into debt in order to oblige them to sell the tribal lands, which did not belong to them, but to their tribes."

Jefferson, that indebted foe of debt, attempted to create an independent Indian yeomanry by driving Indian leaders into the red. This contradiction, between Federal efforts to "improve" Indian economies on the one hand, while both increasing Indian indebtedness and decreasing Indian landholding on the other, placed the civilizing mission precariously upon a badly fissured foundation. The contradiction, with the others, had to be sustained; the federal government had to meet world opinion with a policy of benevolence while also meeting its citizens’ desire for land.

in jefferson’s own words, here’s an excerpt from a letter he wrote to william henry harrison, governor of indiana territory at the time (taken from allan w. eckert’s that dark and bloody river: chronicles of the ohio river valley) 

When they withdraw themselves to the culture of a small piece of land, they will perceive how useless to them are the extensive forests and will be willing to pare them off in exchange for the necessaries for their farms and families. To promote this, we shall push our trading houses, and be glad to see the good and influential individuals among them in debt, because we observe when these debts go beyond what the individuals can pay, they become willing to lop them off by a cession of lands. But should any tribe refuse the proffered hand and take up the hatchet, it will be driven across the Mississippi and the whole of its lands confiscated.

well, the indians could see exactly what was going on – the long knives wanted their lands – so the power struggle between indian factions started to build again, kindled by a new wave of prophetic nativism.  again, dowd:

Between 1795 and 1835, individual prophets and groups of Indians claiming supernatural inspiration posed direct challenges to those leaders who advocated political and even cultural accomdations to the power of the United States. Insurgent nativists drew upon their histories of intertribal cooperation. They looked  to shared beliefs in the ritual demands of power. Turning to the spirits as well as to their intertribal comrades, they attempted to rally support against those tribal leaders who ceded land to the Americans. Prophetic parties of Shawness, Delawares, Creeks, and many others actually broke with their accomodating countryment to prepare an intertribal, Indian union against the expansion of the United States, an effort that eventually merged with the War of 1812.

The federal agents and their fellow citizens were loath to recognize the power of prophetic nativism. They had a different explanation for Indian activity in these decades. They explained the nativists’ successes by asserting, on slender evidence, that the British manipulated the prophets. So pervasive was this thesis that one ex-president and two future presidents held to it during the decade that ended in 1815. Viewed against the background of the civilizing mission, the thesis has curious ramifications.

Thomas Jefferson, writing John Adams from Monticello on the eve of the War of 1812, described the Shawnee Prophet, Tenskwatawa, as "more rogue than fool, if to be a rogue is not the greatest folly of all follies." Jefferson did not reveal to Adams that in 1807 he had ordered Indiana’s territorial governor, William Henry Harrison, to "gain over the prophet, who no doubt is a scoundrel and only needs his price." Instead, and inexactly, Jefferson recalled to Adams that his administration left the Shawnee alone, "till the English though him worth corruption, and found him corruptible."

In Jefferson’s view, which was not uncommon, Indians could be bought. Among some of Jefferson’s contemporaries the belief stemmed from the notion that "savages," residing outside of civil society, could not be expected to possess public spirit, or civic virtue; among others, it was a more general understanding of human fraility in the face of monarchical power. Indian nations, in either case, without the requisite virtue, were thus subject to bribery by greater powers like Britian. The notion litters the correspondence of two prominent young republicans, soon to emerge as national heroes and later as presidents from opposing parties. William Henry Harrison and Andrew Jackson.

The origins of the prophetic movement that would later complicate the War of 1812 lay not, despite contemporary republican declarations, in British conspiracy. They lay instead in the history of eighteenth-century militant nativism, in the intratribal conflicts that followed the collapse of general militancy in 1794, and in the continued American pressure for Native American land. The prophetic movement grew out of a religious tradition, a tradition fertilized by the Indians’ discontent over their dependence upon an encroaching power. The movement grew around an established lattice of intertribal relations, and though it never achieved the breadth or complexity of earlier militancy, it raised estatic hopes during the last, broadly intertribal armed struggle in the Eastern Woodlands.

meanwhile

As Indian indebtedness to traders and federal agencies grew, official urged tribal leaders to sell their lands, both to remove the debt and to purchase the stock and the agricultural implements necessary for a transition to civility.

[Harrison] linked land cessions to the civilizing mission, but with less benevolent intent. He reported to the secretary of war that, with Jefferson, he though intensified American colonization north of the Ohio was the "best and cheapest mode of controuling the tribes, who were most exposed to the intrigues of the British." To achieve that end, "the extinguishment of the Indian Title was pushed to the extent it has been, … so to curtail their hunting grounds, as to force them to change their mode of life, and thereby to render them less warlike, and entirely dependent upon us." So much, then, for the development of an independent Indian yeomanry.

Indian dependency – the American control of the Indian tribes through conscious economic manipulation – had become the manifest goal of the government’s civilizing mission, a goal Americans justified in view of the threat posed by the Indians’ dependence upon Britain. Unfortunately for the orderly vision of management conceived by the likes of Jefferson, Harrison, [agent Benjamain] Hawkins, and a host of others, the Indians did not conform to the republican vision. Instead, they discovered American intentions to deprive them of land and libery; so Harrison, at any rate, believed as he regretted that American goals has not "been so secretly kept as to escape their own or the sagacity of their British friends."

Comments

b real
fabulous, rigorous work

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 21 2006 11:40 utc | 1

Powerful…
Same as it ever was — the parallels are stark.
Remembering and understanding the past helps us recognise the present shorn of ideological adornment, and foresee the future stripped of its propaganda vestments.
One feels the need to catch one’s breath.

Posted by: Bob M. | Dec 21 2006 14:15 utc | 2

This same empirical strategy was used west of the Mississippi. Lewis’s and Clark’s mission was to make friends with the tribes, establish trade dependency, leading to unrepayable debt, and then acquisition of the lands.

Posted by: Kwhit | Dec 21 2006 14:42 utc | 3

Wow.

When they withdraw themselves to the culture of a small piece of land, they will perceive how useless to them are the extensive forests and will be willing to pare them off in exchange for the necessaries for their farms and families. To promote this, we shall push our trading houses, and be glad to see the good and influential individuals among them in debt, because we observe when these debts go beyond what the individuals can pay, they become willing to lop them off by a cession of lands. But should any tribe refuse the proffered hand and take up the hatchet, it will be driven across the Mississippi and the whole of its lands confiscated.

It seemed to me that Thaksin (the recently deposed Prime Minister) was using this selfsame strategy here in Thailand, against the 40% of the population that still lives in the villages and farms communally.
I had not realized that he’d taken the strategy from Thomas Jefferson.

Posted by: John Francis Lee | Dec 21 2006 15:20 utc | 4

Quite an interesting history lessen b real.
The question to me is the motivation behind this: gread? some crude form of special religious enlightment?

Posted by: b | Dec 21 2006 17:07 utc | 5

I’m reluctant to post this suggestion, but it seems today that the Chinese have also read Jefferson and are about to give us some of our own medicine.

Posted by: cpg | Dec 21 2006 18:03 utc | 6

Fantastic piece of work b real. Thank you again.

Posted by: beq | Dec 21 2006 18:05 utc | 7

Thanks to b real for an interesting mini-tract.

The debt-bonding strategy was also discussed in “Confessions of an Economic Hit Man” with very similar goals and parameters. I can’t help wondering, however, if the engineers of this by now hoary scam are not in the process of being hoisted on their own petard: U.S. indebtedness seems to be unsustainable, and creditors may at some future time decide to call in their loans. However, my ignorance of the financial details makes all this mere conjecture based on historical analogy, which by its nature is incomplete and potentially misleading. It’s not clear
what might constitute a rational economic-financial strategy for those rivals of U.S. hegemony seeking to rein it in (and, perhaps, to replace it with their own), but if history is any guide at all we may be justified in the suspicion that the calculations being made will not be based on a search for “equity” rather than justice.

Posted by: Hannah K. O’Luthon | Dec 21 2006 18:18 utc | 8

John Mohawk (Seneca), co-director and associate professor of American Studies, University of Buffalo; author of, UTOPIAN LEGACIES: a history of conquest and oppression in the western world;a review in Yes magazine.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Dec 21 2006 18:31 utc | 9

thanks b real.
“You have the power to make peace with an enemy only if you acknowledge that the enemy is human. To acknowledge that they are rational beings who want to live and who want their children to live enhances your power by giving you the capacity to speak to them. If you think they are not human, you won’t have that capacity; you will have destroyed your own power to communicate with the very people you must communicate with if you are going to bring about peace.
so true

Posted by: annie | Dec 21 2006 18:40 utc | 10

Also, John Mohawk was contributing editor to A Basic Call to Consciousness in addition, he was author of some twenty other books besides the reviewed book above in my #10.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Dec 21 2006 18:41 utc | 11

Sorry, that’s what I get for skimming this wonderful post b real, you had already linked to the Hau de no sau nee Address to the Western World, please forgive my faux pas.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Dec 21 2006 18:55 utc | 12

great post, b real.
I’ve mentioned it before, but one of the most awe-inspiring dreams I have ever had…one that is as vivid to me today as when it first occured, years ago… was a “vision” in which buffalo over ran the places all around me where houses stand today. the houses disappeared, turned under by fields.
I’m sorry I missed the first post (the photograph.) thanks, too, for linking to that one. lots of interesting links there too.
in re: remembering:
The eagle never lost so much time as when he submitted to learn of the crow.
From Blake’s Proverbs of Hell, as remembered by Nobody.
Every night and every morn
Some to misery are born,
Every morn and every night
Some are born to sweet delight.
Some are born to sweet delight,
Some are born to endless night.

Auguaries of Innocence, by William Blake, also remembered by Nobody.
We are led to believe a lie
When we see not thro’ the eye,
Which was born in a night to perish in a night,
When the soul slept in beams of light.

The end of Blake’s Auguaries of Innocence.
That weapon will replace your tongue. You will learn to speak through it and your poetry will now be written with blood. -Nobody’s prophecy.
Look out the window….Doesn’t this remind you of when you’re in the boat and then later that night you’re lying, looking up at the ceiling, and the water in your head was not dissimilar from the landscape, and you think to yourself, ‘Why is it that the landscape is moving, but the boat is still? -The Coal Stoker.
…all as dreamed or remembered by Jim Jarmusch, film poet.

Posted by: fauxreal | Dec 21 2006 19:27 utc | 13

@Hannah,

The debt-bonding strategy was also discussed in “Confessions of an Economic Hit Man” with very similar goals and parameters. I can’t help wondering, however, if the engineers of this by now hoary scam are not in the process of being hoisted on their own petard: U.S. indebtedness seems to be unsustainable, and creditors may at some future time decide to call in their loans. However, my ignorance of the financial details makes all this mere conjecture based on historical analogy, which by its nature is incomplete and potentially misleading.

Because the US as a country is in the position of simply printing money to satisfy its “debts” it is not so analogous to the plight of the Native Americans. I see it as more similar to the situation of the countries in South America, Africa, Phillippines in which the ruling class/despots borrowed huge sums on behalf of their citizenry, laundered their resulting share of bribes and plunder to another currency held offshore, and then absconded; leaving the citizenry to pay.
They ran to Switzerland, the US, Monaco… but the world is getting smaller. Where will the US mega-rich run? To their yachts? Will offshore debts be repudiated by the US down the track in order to preserve the value of the dollar internally or will LET currencies thrive? Will the world eventually demand not just currency but some sort of provenance for legal tender? Will a return of looted wealth be demanded from the Bush’s, Cheney’s and other less obvious recipients as Marcos’ wealth was recovered by the Phillippines? We shall see.

Posted by: PeeDee | Dec 21 2006 21:39 utc | 14

what wonderful teachers you are – i was reading this post before i went to work this day – a long day & night with the homeless, the junkies, the ex cons – & those so lost under capital’s claws that they seem as if they can never come back again & this post like many others here give me such force – when i feel in myself a weakening
a weakening in the face of the horror that is being enacted under the empire’s crude impulsion
haditha upon haditha -600,000 people
& b reals post reminded me in these moments that there exist hope in the words of wo/men – that there exists a humanity for which this horror become more & more unspeakable. 12 million march & beleieved it was possible to act & contrary to what my friend dan of steel sugggests – i think it has had an affect – it is the only brake on their murderous schemes
without this virile opposition we would be in tehran today
& i am reminded by this post of the role of our teachers & of their remembering. i once worked for a time with the late aboriginal historian robert mate-mate – a very, very troubled man – he had been in prison for murder in queensland where the govt existed with only 27% of the vote under a mad dutch reform cleric who like all other australian politicians was on the take & could be bought & was. he had threatened an old legal gambit to keep robert in prison – ‘to be held at her majesty’s leisure’ – which is akin to life without the possibility of parole. many many people made it possible for robert to do his prison in victoria & when he was finally paroled – i met him & worked with him
you have to understand that he had been in what they call tiger cages – for nine years – that he had been locked in solitary longer than any person in the english speaking world – they had taken this tribal lad who had killed someone in a boxing match who possessed only his langauge & his balls – & they tried to make a monster of him. but there was something that could not be beaten – it was prison folklore that he was taught the languages of the prison – & when he finally left he spoke seven of them fluently including another ten or fifteen tribal languages which are also as different from one another as european languages are
& his english – well his english – he had learnt from the words of the great oscar wilde whom he adored. writing was penmanship for robet – many many terms that were no longer in use & many terms with which had no concrete reality because of being in these cages
& i met & worked with this wonderful & troubled man who could keep an audience of hotel at midnight alive & asking question (at this time i directed nights of poetry & music which kept me alive in that hell that was australia) – he was like the jimmy joyce of story telling perhaps more like malcolm lowry & he spoke always with both a terrible & final force & the greatest gentleness i have known in a man – yet with two or three words you knew he had stared deeply at the abyss & it had stared back at him, darkly
& he taught me again that our teachers, our exemplars do not have to be perfect – they simply have to listen
& with that listening, remember
& with that remembering, transform
if it is not possible to transform you proper circumstance then it is obligatory to try to transform the other & it was the opposite of evangalism because it dealt directly with tumult that is dialectics, it dealt with the torrent that is change
& no guarantees – you could be building heaven but you might just be falling endlessly in hell or kingdom come as he would say
& he taught me more than mao tse tung what it meant to link ancestrally – & not in that noble savage way – but with a completely materialist understanding of circumstances – that is to say, in brief accept the mystery of the ‘idea of the idea’ but dismantle all the mystification
he taught me we have obligations tho he died to early to fulfill all of his – i remember one beautiful night with robert & some elders & what is called a guardian – someone who protects the stories being told so that something sacred in not said & this elder & guardian were criticising robert for not fulfilling all of these (there was a terrible weight to his duty & yes sometimes he was weak before that) – it was a grand bourgeois café – & these men went from talking – to singing & then to the songs of animals & birds – it was ten o clock – on a friday night – with the petit bourgeoisie – & for perhaps 5 minutes they felt the privelege of being with such men – but it went on & at the end it was more like the art ensemble of chicago or led zeppelin 1 & 2 – it was so loud – & we were crying all these tough but fragile men – were saying to this world we are wounded – wounded deeply but we are open to wonderment’s message
& for me there was not one ounce of mysticism in that – i saw practical lived history before, concrete facts if you will & i saw concrete reality, ahead
& what it means to confront that concrete reality, as we must
i have always felt condemened to confron those realities with all the artillery i have been given from teachers such as robert & that these exchanges are in their way hegelian in that the intercoonections between people, ideas, actions & words are almost prophetically related
perhaps this is why spinoza & hegel have meant so much to me – why the phenemonenologist had me within their grasp & why i have remained a dutiful student of louis althusser
what i am saying is that to remember there has to be a voyage through the dark passage of dominant ideology – all that which creates fear, hesitation – all that which would turn human instinct into some informatic immolation
& to pass through that dark passage you need to read, read until it comes out of every pore of your body, communicate until you are going baking mad with the futility of it all but above all listening, listening, listening
& it was perhaps that i sensed in this post of b real of listening. slothrop knows that i adore the things written but sometimes i feel slothrop does not listen to others – does not understand that all the pardigms, that all the theories, that all the words strung together are obligated to touch
not in a sentimental way but in an instinctual one as old willy reich taught us – indeed it is the contrary of sentiment – it is the demand that that knowledge meets the facts, the meat & the matter of our lives
& for many of you here – you give this gift

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 21 2006 22:03 utc | 15

The soul of Moon of Alabama.
R’Giap.
I wish you you well, you are, as the Celts say, a Druid.

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Dec 21 2006 22:20 utc | 16

b real
Thank you for remembering; for teaching me a Jefferson I never studied and with that a vision that makes sense of where I am now; what my countrypeople and I face now. These are things that shoudl already be our common knowledge, but with so many of my friends I despaired of finding this sort of true and guiding account.
You take me beyond cynicism and and into the undeniable. We will not save ourselves by any paternity or any claims to membership. Of course, we will not save ourselves at all. But, we can wake up.
Thanks for the alarm.

Posted by: citizen | Dec 21 2006 23:43 utc | 17

gore vidal on jefferson, truman & the butcher with a baseball bat for a brain

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 22 2006 1:59 utc | 18

when they start to wear your clothes
do their dreams
become more like yours?
who do they look like?
when they start to use your language,
do they say what you say?
who are they in your words?
when they start to use your money
do they need the same things you need?
or do the things change?
when they are converted to your gods
do yo know who they are praying to?
do you know who is praying
for you not to be there?
ws merwin–conqueror

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 22 2006 2:34 utc | 19

rgiap
you’re not the only one who has stories to tell, you know. i was relieved when i discovered a time when there was no reason to tell another story, though. in truth, i distrust ethnographers. “never talk to anthropologists” is good advice.

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 22 2006 2:39 utc | 20

btw. why the fuck is there no 7 hour version of sonic youth’s diamond sea on youtube?
information society, my ass.

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 22 2006 2:46 utc | 21

You couldn’t tell a coherent sane story, slothrop, two times in a row, if you had unlimited bandwidth,Charlie Manson advising you on sanity, joseph Goebbels advising you on truth, and Thomas Friedmam advising you on argument.
Give it up laughing stock.

Posted by: Proudhon | Dec 22 2006 3:15 utc | 22

proudhon
well, you’d be wrong about that.
i’m gratified anyhow i evoke such strong hatred for me by the likes of you who enjoys what he thinks as dispensation of wisdom from behind shifting pseudonyms. stick with one, so i can have a better target to kick.

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 22 2006 3:50 utc | 23

speaking of stories, where’s debs? among the stories, his bit about the gay radio dj who died on mindinao is a moving one.

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 22 2006 3:57 utc | 24

Emminently mutible for your pleasure.
Don’t know what you mean above.
Seeing things that are not?

Posted by: Proudhon | Dec 22 2006 3:59 utc | 25

just stick w/ a single nick. defend it.
i liked “groucho.”

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 22 2006 4:03 utc | 26

I know no Groucho.
You mistake a lot of things.
Let’s get to argument tomorrow.
Will return.

Posted by: Proudhon | Dec 22 2006 4:12 utc | 27

@slothrop/Proudhon – please do the fighting elsewhere – thanks

Posted by: b | Dec 22 2006 5:16 utc | 28

“rgiap you’re not the only one who has stories to tell” – slothrop
i thought that was the point. we are nothing more than the accumulation of ur connection with others. the polypony that i have often argued is qualititatively more important than the endless circles of self(ves)

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 22 2006 11:50 utc | 29

from the autumn leaves link
He argued not for the establishment of law and order, but for the full establishment of peace. Peace was to be defined not as the simple absence of war or strife, but as the active striving of humans for the purpose of establishing universal justice. Peace was defined as the product of a society which strives to establish concepts which correlate to the English words Power, Reason and Righteousness.
“Righteousness” refers to something akin to the shared ideology of the people using their purest and most unselfish minds. It occurs when the people put their minds and emotions in harmony withthe flow of the universe and the intentions of the Good Mind or the Great Creator. The principles of Righteousness demand that all thoughts of prejudice, privilege or superiority be swept away and that recognition be given to the reality that the creation is intended for the benefit of all equally

there can be no peace w/the racism. it seems the current sitch is predicated on the adoption of western values by the same bribery used to steal america. we simple exchanged the savage for the terrorist, and discount any need to deal w/these people who we deem such. the arguments justifying our presence in iraq all revolve around the ‘legitamacy’ of the current puppet government and anyone who doesn’t first accept the bribery is discounted as if they no longer deserve recognition.
it is thru the racist demonizing (from #10) “You have the power to make peace with an enemy only if you acknowledge that the enemy is human. that the opponent (“we don’t negotiate w/terrorists”) is defined, isolated, rationalized out of negotiation. what is left is peace to be negotiated only under conditions of servitude. which is impossible, because there is no just peace w/out righteousness, and there is no righteousness unless the creation is intended for the benefit of all equally

Posted by: annie | Dec 22 2006 18:56 utc | 30

@annie #30
Bravo.

Posted by: Bea | Dec 22 2006 19:42 utc | 31

But should any tribe refuse the proffered hand and take up the hatchet, it will be driven across the Mississippi and the whole of its lands confiscated.
Palestinians Leaving Gaza

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — Driven by fear of civil war and increasingly bleak economic prospects, Palestinians are fleeing their violence-wracked lands in growing numbers, and travel agents report brisk demand for visas to Cuba, one of the few places that welcomes Palestinians.
Many of the emigrants are skilled and educated, who are leaving behind an increasingly impoverished and fundamentalist society.
“What Israel couldn’t do by force,” said pollster Nader Said, “we were able to do with internal dispute, lack of leadership, accompanied by economic pressure and the siege on Gaza.”….

A Way Out

RAMALLHAH, West Bank, December 14, 2006 – She had to pause me. After a sort of nervous beginning, it was hard to make me stop speaking on and on about this issue. It is really hilarious that she asked me this particular question in the Oral Test, only few days ago I was tackling this matter with a friend. “Why do you think people, from your country, immigrate abroad?” The interviewer from the British Council asked me.
I calmed down. I knew that I can discuss this topic for one reason and one reason only. For the last three weeks I have been hearing nothing but young and desperate students and graduates wanting out as soon as possible.
The first thing that crossed my confused head as I heard the question was Abdul Qader; a smart colleague from the university. With a scratched nose and pale face, he showed up at my door just a week ago. Instead of welcoming him, I insensitively asked who scratched his nose, it was still bleeding. ‘Life,’ he answered. The hardships of the real life after graduation and the endless responsibilities thrust upon our shoulders are haunting us, he tried to explain. I got really overwhelmed by his fragmented thoughts, and worst of all his incohesive phrases and sarcastic tone. I knew the old talkative and active student with aspiring political and journalistic ambitions and passions; the guy who kept the sociology class argumentative and alive; the person in whom we saw a prospect leadership.
I need to leave the country, he told me desperately. I need to get to the States, I have to make some money and have a real life. “Here, I am burying myself alive.”
Still trying to digest his new aspirations for the future, I enquired more and more about his former plans of pursuing a Master program in the International Studies here at Birzeit University. But then I heard the typical answer “No Money, No Jobs, No life!” I saw this answer coming, but for some reason I fancied a different reason.
Eyad is another intelligent person to whom life did not smile. After two years, I finally saw him again. With a black hat on his thick curly hair and covering his tiny face, he came for a visit to rejuvenate his feelings of worthiness at the university. “You are lucky to have found a job,” then looked around and added “my honor grades add more salt on my wounds,” he explained while nodding his head back and forth. Eyad, just another Palestinian youth who graduated from Birzeit- although a nationally renowned university, has been striving really hard for a job for years. Now that nothing is working out with him the way he more or less wants, he is seriously considering the one and only alternative that young Palestinians have; the American Dream.
Apart from the sexist impressions, it even gets funnier that not only young males, but also females have now set their agendas towards the Western Dream of getting a decent job and education. I may have encountered six female cases in the last months aspiring for a better alternative, especially in the States.
Husein and Suhaib, former colleagues in the English Department, have set their future financial hopes on Dubai. They are leaving in the coming weeks. Everyone is leaving. Money, education, and the inseparable political situations are pushing those who could benefit their community out. It is such a pity, but I am in no position to judge nor to blame them.
Abdel Qader told me that almost forty young men from his village have wedded Palestinian females with American passports so they can immigrate easily. This, unfortunately, is one of the common trends not only in his village but almost all the Palestinian territories. “Yet, I have a family to take care of first. That’s why I haven’t fought for one of those American-citizenship-holders,” he sarcastically said….
The World Bank estimates 70 percent of Gaza’s 1.4 million people live in poverty, defined as living on less than $2.30 a day. A recent poll indicated that the number of young Palestinians willing to leave if given a chance has jumped from 25 percent to 44 percent over two years.
–Dana Shalash, personal blog

Posted by: Bea | Dec 22 2006 20:06 utc | 32

all i can say, slothrop, is that you must have a very different notion of what constitutes friendship, comradeship
we are all here – a polyphony – crying like bears, howling like wolves
strangely, i am unaffected by your impertinance as i once would have been because as i have stated here often enough – the remembering is in the listening, the profound listening
neruda’s speaking of self but hoping one day that in doing so he would speak of geography
it would seem even in my most vulgar marxism – that it is the absorption of the other that allows for transformation in one another & it would seem to me the existence of communities like this is exactly that necessity
a necessity also for precision & detail at the risk of getting lost in that detail – in risking our little theoretical constructs to the living realities of our lives & again you misunderstand if you think that is sentiment because on the contrary it is the most basic matter
& that is how i understood b real – & his constant sourcing of indigenous cosmologies & practice – i see no ethnology there, no anal fixated anthropology but i imagined that we were speaking or remembering as a living act & not the anecdotal abyss of nostalgia

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 23 2006 1:07 utc | 33

r’giap, your #15 thread was stunning, beautiful. and it would have been so w/out invoking slothrop who had yet to comment on the thread.
i feel slothrop does not listen to others – does not understand that all the pardigms, that all the theories, that all the words strung together are obligated to touch
i don’t want this beautiful thread to turn into another one of the conficts we’ve seen here in the past. it becomes tit for tat carried from one thread to the next.
please children, lets not fight. don’t you have eachothers emails? can’t you carry on without us?

Posted by: annie | Dec 23 2006 1:48 utc | 34

although i must say, 33 is quite lovely
now, maybe slothrop can get all warm and cozy and play nice?
😉

Posted by: annie | Dec 23 2006 1:52 utc | 35

and this proud person, what is this, coming in here and stirring up trouble anonymously! really!
i love this thread, it is so beautiful. thank you b real. thank you everyone.
we all have stories.

Posted by: annie | Dec 23 2006 2:01 utc | 36

annie
i think we are all comrades under the skin – i imagine even with pat – with whom i could have easily been on the other side of the interrogators table – she brought much here & i think that was all i was saying – that it is about giving
& that giving is really a part of nearly all indigenous cosmologies – in both its deepest sense but also in the more practical sense too
i don’t think that is idealised – it has been my expperience – & it was the most extraordinary moment in the documentary on the palestinian man on al jazeera was that moment – when she asked what was the most important thing & he sd with eyes boring into her – with love, with kindness but also with an unbelievabl firmness – that one had to give, give

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 23 2006 2:06 utc | 37

& that giving is really a part of nearly all indigenous cosmologies – in both its deepest sense but also in the more practical sense too ..i don’t think that is idealised – it has been my expperienc
we have so much to learn just to get back what has been robbed from us. these teachings resonate so much because they are steped in such obvious simplicities and seem so lacking in the process to peace today. everything geared towards the robbing of wealth when true wealth is only when true balance exists. it almost seems fitting after what we have done to the earth, that the very forces man wishes to use and control bites back. how can we ever wrestle back al that has been squandered and used to poison us? well, it seems all the answers must first start w/the absorption of the other that allows for transformation
there has to be some kind of acknowledgement of oneness not just w/eachother on the globe, but w/eachother AND the globe. to learn lessons taught by the cycles and rhythms in nature. nature doesn’t consume more than it needs. where did all this greed come from, how is it steeped in our nature. i don’t think it is, it is a learned thing this greed, used to control.
ahh, we need to unlearn, begin empty, and absorb eachother to come to some consensus of our path. just rambling..

Posted by: annie | Dec 23 2006 2:42 utc | 38

should say,
‘ that seem so lacking in our path to peace’.

Posted by: annie | Dec 23 2006 2:45 utc | 39

Thanks for remembering.
Between Jeffersons view of the indians as british agents and the present view of iraqi resistance as foreign powers meddling in Iraq is only passage of time. Stubbornly the onces in power refuse to see that it is ordinarly people that are refusing them their victories and conjures up an enemy worthy of giving them the resistance they encounter.

Posted by: a swedish kind of death | Dec 23 2006 3:31 utc | 40

oh, I like the stories, so long as those who tell them don’t forget those of us who listen also have different experiences sometimes accounting for different points of view. but i would say, in order to avoid the seduction of solipsism, no one should require anyone to tell a good story to defend a philosophy.
but, i’ll throw in a story now and then.

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 23 2006 3:58 utc | 41

i’m watching allan iverson in a nuggets jersey.
that’s not a bad story.

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 23 2006 3:59 utc | 42

Lol
that was a short story

Posted by: a swedish kind of death | Dec 23 2006 4:06 utc | 43

earl boykins + allen iverson = 7ft. of lithe, zone-penetrating offense.
thank you, philly.

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 23 2006 4:13 utc | 44

skod
imagine rocket richard and peter forsberg on the same line.
badabing!

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 23 2006 4:16 utc | 45

thanks for the help w/ posting, b!
hkol & PeeDee – check out r.t. naylor’s book hot money and the politics of debt (if you already haven’t)
dazzling posts, r’giap. i’m all ears. thank you.
will have to contribute to the great discussions here on another visit. the meter’s almost out…

Posted by: b real | Dec 23 2006 7:17 utc | 46

memory remembering el salvador

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 24 2006 0:16 utc | 47

Two very good articles by William Loren Katz in Counterpunch :

The First U.S. Foreign Invasion: Seizing Florida in 1816

This year of 2006 will be remembered as the moment Americans got even with leaders who had lied to them in order to garner public support for invading and occupying Iraq. But given the public’s preoccupation with a crucial election and the daily news of a dismal war, few took note of a significant 2006 anniversary: 190 years ago the United States launched its first foreign invasion. The parallels to the present are enlightening.
In July 1816, General Andrew Jackson, Commander of the U.S. Southern District, ordered Army, Navy and Marine units to invade Florida, then under the flag of Spain. Jackson acted, probably on orders from President James Madison, without a Congressional declaration of war. Neither Spain nor its colonial outpost posed a threat to the U.S. or its citizens. Rather, the President and the General–both prominent slaveholders–had concluded that the slave economy and its human “property” were threatened by the several thousand Native Americans and African Americans, including escaped slaves, who had united in the Seminole Nation on Florida soil.
As in the case of President George W. Bush’s attack on Iraq, this first foreign sortie by the U.S. had an enormous impact on the Executive Branch and its presidential powers, on respect for the Constitution by those sworn to protect it, and on the public’s right to know. Historian William Weeks points out that this episode established a number of dangerous precedents, some of which Secretary of State John Quincy Adams later regretted:
· President Madison and Secretary Adams violated the Constitution when they bypassed Congressional input into the Executive decision to go to war. The Constitution grants war powers to the Congress alone.
· Adams, in defending the invasion, lied to Congress and the public about the reasons for it.
· Adams proclaimed that those Americans who opposed the war were not only wrong but were giving aid and comfort to the nation’s foreign enemies, and he covered up atrocities committed under General Jackson’s command.

Was Florida, in that distant time, any more of a menace to the strongest country in the Americas than Iraq was 19 decades later? Not really. Rather, the slaveholding elite was convinced that the Africans who fled from bondage on southern plantations to Florida’s free air posed an immediate danger to Georgia, the Carolinas and perhaps the South’s entire slave plantation system. In today’s language they regarded these men and women — who did not live under white masters, carried arms, were allied with Native Americans and welcomed runaways to their villages — as potential “terrorists.” So the slaveholders used the leverage afforded by their economic power to steer the White House toward a military response to the perceived threat.
Secretary of State John Quincy Adams, believing in “Indian removal, slavery, and the use of military force without congressional approval,” and that it was “better to err on the side of vigor than on the side of weakness,” defended the invasion, as well as Jackson’s brutal search and destroy operations. In presenting that defense, writes Weeks, “he consciously distorted, dissembled, and lied about the goals and conduct of American foreign policy to both Congress and the public” — an effort, Weeks believes, that “stands as a monumental distortion of the causes and conduct of Jackson’s conquest of Florida, reminding historians not to search for truth in official explanations of events.”
In 1819, the United States persuaded a war-weary Spain to sell Florida for $5 million, and in 1822 it entered the Union as a slave state.
Although the first Seminole War had ended with a real estate deal that erased all claims of Florida’s original inhabitants, many more years of war lay ahead. The U.S. had entered a quagmire, with, at times, half of its army tied down in ongoing skirmishes in Florida’s swampland.
The Second Seminole War began full scale in 1836. That year, soon after arriving to take command of U.S. operations in Florida, General Sidney Thomas Jesup warned of the war’s consequences: “This, you may be assured, is a negro and not an Indian war; and if it be not speedily put down, the south will feel the effects of it on their slave population.” He analyzed the task ahead:
The two races, the negro and the Indian, are rapidly approximating; they are identical in interests and feelings. . . . Should the Indians remain in this territory the negroes among them will form a rallying point for runaway negroes from the adjacent states; and if they remove, the fastness of the country will be immediately occupied by negroes.
In the Second Seminole War 1500 U.S. soldiers had died, Congress had spent more than $40,000,000 (pre-Civil War dollars!) and thousands of soldiers were wounded or had died of disease. Seminole losses, particularly civilians, were undoubtedly much higher.
Finally, thousands of red and black Seminoles, having won assurances that they could remain free and united as a nation, agree to migrate to the Oklahoma Indian Territory. Others neither surrendered nor left their Florida homeland. The Seminoles of Florida had operated the largest station on the Underground Railroad and had emerged undefeated, with their community intact, from nearly 50 years of siege. Their accomplishment has no equal in United States history.

And in Black Agenda Report :
Hugo Chavez And the Rise of Black-Indian Power

Like four-fifths of Venezuelans today, Chavez was born of poor Black and Indian parents. Since the days of Columbus, descendants of the Spanish conquerors have claimed the privilege of governing Latin America. They have effectively barred Indigenous people from high office. Chavez stands as a direct challenge to white domination of South American governments.
Chavez rules a country where three percent of the population, mostly of white European descent, own 77% of the land. In recent decades millions of hungry peasants have drifted into Caracas and other cities, to live in barrios of cardboard shacks and open sewers. Chavez wants to reverse poverty, provide jobs, provide education and health care, and redistribute vacant lands. He has begun to transfer fields from giant unused or abandoned haciendas to peasant hands, and though landlords have responded with alarm, he has promised further distributions.
The stock market has risen 130% this year, and the economy is soaring over 10%, the highest growth rate in the Americas. Chavez has stated, “All this stuff about Chavez and his hordes coming to sweep away the rich, it’s a lie. We have no plan to hurt you. All your rights are guaranteed, you who have large properties or luxury farms or cars.”
But the most dramatic beneficiaries of 21st century socialism, are the poor. Three million people have enrolled in one of the government’s four free educational missions that offer [1] basic literacy, [2] primary school education, [3] high school equivalency and [4] university education. The number of households in poverty dropped from 42.8% in 1999 when Chavez came to office, to 33.9% in 2006. During the same period households that suffered extreme poverty dropped from 17.1% to 10.6%. The official unemployment figure had been more than cut in half, and the poorest 25% of people has seen their consumption rate more than double.
This former paratrooper seems to spring from a time when Africans and Indians armed and united to fight the first European invasion. For inspiration Chavez can reach back to the misty dawn of the foreign landings when heroic Black and African men and women rose to battle invading armies and their Christian missionaries. In 1819 Simon Bolivar, also of African and Indian lineage and the Founding Father of South America’s Revolution, became the first elected President of Venezuela. Vicente Guerrero, an illiterate Black Indian guerilla General during the Mexican Revolution, took his army into the Sierra Madre mountains where he trained them to wrest their country from Spain’s colonialism, and also taught himself to read and write. Mexico’s ruling white elite mocked his lack of education and called him a “triple-blooded outsider.” But in 1829 after Guerrero came down from his mountain refuge, he became President of Mexico, the first Black Indian head of state. Guerrero wrote Mexico’s constitution, emancipated its slaves, ended racial discrimination and abolished the death penalty.
Hugo Chavez and his people, historically poor and oppressed, are attempting to write an exciting chapter in the heroic record crafted originally by millions of unknown African and Indian people in the Americas, and continued by Simon Bolivar and Vicente Guerrero.

Posted by: John Francis Lee | Dec 24 2006 12:20 utc | 48

thanks for the katz link, jfl- the first seminole war was really a continuation of the creek war. osceola, who gained noteriety for his strategic endeavors in the second seminole war, had himself fought in the creek war as a member of the red sticks. the militant nativism which fueled much of the armed resistance to the yanks was a continuing movement, ongoing over a period of 70 years in those regions. and it got a extra boost from jackson’s “contempt” for his own creek allies – those accomodationists who aligned w/ u.s. forces against the red sticks – after the 1814 treaty of fort jackson – claimed as the just reward to the victors of the creek war – took one-third of creek lands from those very allies. white man speak w/ forked tongue, right? it’s always about the land. always.
going back to the dowd’s book, which i used at the top of this thread,

Between July 1813 and April 1814 close to half of all Red Stick men had met violent deaths. Some of the survivors later gave up to the government faction. Most regrouped and, incredibly, kept fighting.
Red Sticks fled Upper Creek and Alabama country for Spanish Florida, where they met up with their Seminole relatives. Francis, the prophet, who had hastened to Florida following the earlier disaster at Holy Ground, found himself joined not only by Seminoles and refugee Red Sticks – among them the Shawnee Seekaboo – but also by black slaves seeking freedom. The combined force numbered about a thousand.

the british, barely a month after the red stick’s defeat at horsehoe bend, moved troops & supplies into the region along the apalachiola river w/ which to supply the red sticks throughout 1814 & into the following year, until retreating in june of 1815.

Between August 14 and November 17 the Red Sticks and Redcoats had taken Pensacola bloodlessly from the Spanish, had attempted but failed to take Mobile from the Americans, and had lost Pensacola, more bloodily, to Americans under Jackson. Britons, Red Sticks, Seminoles, and blacks took part in each action, with Indians forming the majority of the forces arrayed on that side, and with the number of African-Americans among the Red Sticks and Seminoles increasing.
Blacks arrived both volunarily and involuntarily, after fleeing from American plantations or after surviving capture by Seminoles and Red Sticks. In either case and either free or “with the expectation of being free,” blacks fought alongside Creek Indians as early as the battle of Holy Ground, and probably earlier in the Seminole War of 1811.

the influx of the creek resistance into florida helped strengthen opposition to jackson’s efforts to conquer the territory, remove all indians to the west of the mississippi, and preserve the institution of plantation slavery in the south. much of the impetus for the invasion was the slavery issue – dowd makes mention that “one American commander carried orders to kill all blacks among the Indians who could not be captured or easily carried off” as the yanks “would not tolerate a southern sanctuary from slavery,” but we should not forget the roles of imperial expansion & the indian removal act in the seminole wars.
i wrote a bit about these wars here, w/ a relevant mention of what happened to the black seminoles after their arrival in indian territory (now oklahoma), another tragic episode in north american history which katz’s article leaves out.

Posted by: b real | Dec 25 2006 5:39 utc | 49