Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
November 14, 2006
“The terrs have won”

The last time I visited the U.S. was in fall 2000. A friend in Santa Barbara had invited me to his wedding. Before I have visited the U.S. some 25 times and have been to about 20 states on business and private trips.

But since the U.S. attack on Afghanistan, I instituted a private little boycott and vacated elsewhere. Some American friends thought it was a stupid thing for me to do and laughed at me. Eventually they came to Europe to see me.

I recently was invited again, I declined to come and yesterday I sent this link.

In court documents filed with the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Richmond, Va., the Justice Department said a new anti-terrorism law being used to hold detainees in Guantanamo Bay also applies to foreigners captured and held in the United States.



That law is being used to argue the Guantanamo Bay cases, but Al-Marri represents the first detainee inside the United States to come under the new law. Aliens normally have the right to contest their imprisonment, such as when they are arrested on immigration violations or for other crimes.
"It’s pretty stunning that any alien living in the United States can be denied this right," said Jonathan Hafetz, an attorney for Al-Marri. "It means any non-citizen, and there are millions of them, can be whisked off at night and be put in detention."

While I would like to visit the U.S. again, if some nerd within the U.S. government feels like constructing some writings in this little blog as "supporting terrorists", that visit could turn out be longer than expected and quite restricted location wise. It could even turn out to up to my death and there would be absolutely no way to challenge such an outcome.

Unlikely? Sure. Impossible? Not anymore. Just sad, very sad. But why should I take that risk when there are a million other places to go?

The friend answered today: "Ok, the terrs have won."

Comments

rgiap
lookit. perhaps you have not read this thread carefully enough. whatever his initial intent, b inspired the reflexive america-is-the-root-of-all-evil response. this response is so rigorous and “genuine” i’m convinced people actually believe if not for the u.s., the world would be a convent of baguette eating expats strolling through the lovely french villages in search of more bucolic socially safe and endlessly restorative capitalist exchanges. this fantasy should be the object of my ridicule; as a “leftist” any other reaction would be disingenuous.
i’m surprised it must again be said that though the demons change masks, the inevitibility of capitalist expansion peaking in an orgy of violence consuming mounds of unutilized capital threatens as usual. and if it feels good for you and others to claim that your beloved lands are neutral players, then you are a liar; but sometimes the lies are necessary to one’s illusion of superiority.
as for monolycus, he has demanded “personal” disabuse since he arrived here, what w/ his selfaggrandizing rectitude and hilarious interpretations of his sacred texts.
rgiap, wherever you see them, destroy the black spheres.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 16 2006 1:47 utc | 101

as for monolycus, he has demanded “personal” disabuse since he arrived here, what w/ his selfaggrandizing rectitude and hilarious interpretations of his sacred texts.
you speak as if victimized, defensive, threatened
“wolfboy”, “wolfman”
good of you to use his name. i think perhaps you feared your advisory so you did not have the courage to call him monolycus.

Posted by: Anonymous | Nov 16 2006 1:58 utc | 102

I know I’ve been busy elsewhere for a while, but it doesn’t sound much like the slothrop I remember from a year or more back.
as to ‘boycott = violence,’ I say Pshaw. the implication is what — that we are morally obliged to spend our money on products we loathe and despise made by methods we loathe and despise, because to refrain from doing so is an act of violence?
the organised boycott is a weapon, in the financial sense, levelled at the wallets of the bosses to try to influence their policy. to call it an act of violence is imho to step perilously close to the pro-management, anti-worker line that defines strikes as criminal activity. the actual violence in labour history is almost all the other way round: lynchings and beatings, detentions and tortures and frame-ups, of labour leaders and organisers by mobs, renta-thugs, and crooked cops. not to mention the violence of the corrupt practises of the big corporadoes, which does literally kill people, not metaphorically or rhetorically.
the individual boycott is imho something else again, neither weapon nor political (because not organised). I liken it to social shunning. there are things we don’t want to be part of and people we don’t want to hang out with. and yeah, there is no such thing as purity… but there is also no obligation to donate to bad causes. voting with our dollars is not terribly effective and not very empowering, but (like recycling) it’s kind of a ‘least we can do.’ and as we have seen with the organic food marketplace it has effects over time — expected and unexpected.
agree with b real @64. about to read Jensen’s Endgame, having just finished Hornborg’s Power of the Machine.
btw the infinite growth capitalism mythology originated in the UK, or GB as it was then, at the heart of Empah. Hornborg goes into the curious parochialism of this now-globalised dogma and the inherent contradiction of trying to globalise an ideology that makes no sense outside of the core.

Posted by: DeAnander | Nov 16 2006 2:01 utc | 103

Priceless catlady. How the hell did you ever find that? You planning on visiting Helsinke?

Posted by: Juannie | Nov 16 2006 2:29 utc | 104

deanander
oh, i agree about the mythology of endless expansion. have been reading through amin’s accumulation on a world scale and it is an not far from an “objective” marxist orthodoxy to see how the periphery/core schema is crucial in the maintenance of the core’s domination. another way to say this is the deindustrializing core sustained domination through unequal exchange (french and candians included at the preferred end of exchange).
the interesting point now is how the farce of comparative advantages is achieved in a global economy in which the creation of endless credit is finaced by the fareast and whose accumulation lies unusable in trillion dollar central bank accounts. the magnitude of this contradiction is mind-boggling. i suppose the chinese will have to sink more $s in massive capitalintensive development. maybe fly to mars or bomb france. they play they game as well as anyone. but whatever you do, do not improve the standard of living for your workers above a threshhold where their slave labor in no longer competitive.
now, perhaps we can arrange a boycott against the import of chinese produced goods (finished products too, no cheating). most of us we’ll be dead or very naked & cold in a week.
suggestion: read this

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 16 2006 2:31 utc | 105

oops.
this

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 16 2006 2:32 utc | 106

rightward pointing arrow
beware the black spheres of american power. BEWARRRRRE!

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 16 2006 2:43 utc | 107

I know I’ve been busy elsewhere for a while, but it doesn’t sound much like the slothrop I remember from a year or more back.

That’s struck me, too. I kinda figured that Monolycus tracked down and killed the real one and has been using the name to post rude comments to make his detractors feel bad, like calling people who dislike the Israeli government antisemitic. Be careful, Monolycus, it starts off as convenience but ends up as addiction! Or maybe it’s just another case of fava beans and a nice chianti. Either way, I figure Monolycus and slothrop are now the same person, playing both sides and having a good chuckle over it.

Posted by: The Truth Gets Vicious When You Corner It | Nov 16 2006 2:54 utc | 108

i’ll admit too much pre-election time was spent at rightwing blogs defending leftwing virtue. the “dialogue” there is cruel and i probably retain my combativeness here. but, my “left” politics are also attacked here for reasons unjustified and unclarified. so, i get angry, in a fun way. and my ad hominems are reserved for those who really deserve them.
and i still have my rgiap parodies in storage. look out.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 16 2006 3:06 utc | 109

Throw a net over it.
I have previously taken DNA scrapings.
Is it the “real” slothrop. Think so, all indications.
Fortunately the subject will not survive the forensics workup.

Posted by: Dr. Quincey | Nov 16 2006 3:14 utc | 110

i don’t want to be killed by monolycus. my friends and family would be shamed i was murdered by a hobbit.
much more dignified to die by the hands of a freeper.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 16 2006 3:15 utc | 111

i don’t want to be killed by monolycus
ah, now we understand ;o

Posted by: annie | Nov 16 2006 3:35 utc | 112

thanks for the hornberg link, deanander. looking forward to your thoughts on endgame.
jeez slothrop, have you been taking sophistry lessons from commandante strawman? chill, man.

Posted by: b real | Nov 16 2006 4:38 utc | 113

comandante

Posted by: b real | Nov 16 2006 4:39 utc | 114

kinda sorta off topic, but while you guys have been beating each other up, i’ve been cooking – all locally grown ingredients of course – and listening to herbert girardet. girardet is an expert on sustainability and i learned tonight that the chinese may very well be smarter than the north americans and the euros combined. he makes the very good point that we have much to learn not just from biomimicry but also from third world cities that have by virtue of survival techniques developed more sustainable policies and practices than the gluttonous first world. as the chief consultant to the shanghai city government on the design of dongtan eco-city on chongming island near shanghai, he has also informed me that we could be woefully behind the chinese in looking towards a better way to live in the future. he specifically references how sustainable cities generate jobs (e.g., glaziers to reinforce windows towards better heat and cool conservation).
so why have i posted this outside the fact that i am enormously excited to learn things like this? because to an extent it challenges slothrop in 105. slothrop, you have shown here more than once that you have a softer side. and i am glad to hear that you have been waging battles on the freeper blogs (btw you might want to check out renarf’s diary on dkos about her recent experience at free republic. i know you won’t agree politically with her anymore than i but i thought what she came away with from the experience was worth considering), and hope you left your dem signs out on the lawn. but i honestly do not understand why you have the knives out for monolycus. i have learned much from both of you, moreso without the mudslinging.

Posted by: conchita | Nov 16 2006 5:15 utc | 115

Vicious Truth (#108)
“Either way, I figure Monolycus and slothrop are now the same person, playing both sides and having a good chuckle over it.”
I think that’s a very interesting theory. My sockpuppet… I mean… slothrop disagrees. But I wouldn’t press the issue. When the puppet can’t defend a position it just hijacks threads with ad hominems until everyone forgets what the topic was in the first place. That thar’s called fancy-book-larnin’ in these here parts.
“i don’t want to be killed by monolycus.”
Yes, you do!
No, I don’t! Wait… I forgot to sign off before I posted the reply. Darn it.
@conchita (#115)
“but i honestly do not understand why you have the knives out for monolycus.”
If you ever work it out, do let me know. Wondered that one a time or two my own self.
Don’t know much about Chinese cuisine, but some of their other habits right now don’t bear much emulation.

Posted by: Monolycus | Nov 16 2006 6:01 utc | 116

@Mono – that link – “Chinese sell organs” – sure, Iraqis kill children in Kuwaiti hopitals – lame propaganda …

Posted by: b | Nov 16 2006 7:01 utc | 117

chinese sell organs
i think you may be misinformed b.

Posted by: annie | Nov 16 2006 7:52 utc | 118

Well annie, I am not saying it didn’t happen (organ sales is quite an industry in India too, but there is little talk about that). The Chinese have enacted laws to prevent further transplants of such kind.
The propaganda part I referred to is the Falung Gong stuff – Falung Gong is a cult and not a healthy one.

Posted by: b | Nov 16 2006 8:14 utc | 119

REUTERS

Report backs organ harvest claim
Saturday July 8, 2006
CHINA – A respected Canadian human rights lawyer and a former Canadian Cabinet member have lent their weight to charges that China has been killing Falun Gong dissidents so it can use their organs.
The two men – lawyer David Matas, and David Kilgour, former secretary of state for Asia and the Pacific – spent two months investigating the accusations, which China has regularly denied.
“It is simply inescapable that this is going on,” Kilgour said.
The pair provided transcripts of phone calls placed in Chinese to detention centres and organ transplant clinics in which officials said organs from Falun Gong practitioners could be made available for speedy use. Some of the calls were placed on behalf of the Falun Gong by people inquiring about whether they could get organ transplants.
Matas and Kilgour said they had carefully examined phone records and had sat with certified Mandarin translators as they listened to the taped conversations.
They also conducted interviews of their own and investigated Government records and other evidence.
“Believe me, I used to be a prosecutor. I knew there would be cynicism and I did my utmost to make sure that everything was satisfactorily and properly and ethically done,” Kilgour said.
One call, made on June 8, was to a Mr Li in the Mishan City Detention Centre in Heilongjiang province, according to the transcript.
“Do you have Falun Gong [organ] suppliers?” Li was asked.
“We used to have, yes,” he replied.
“What about now?” “Yes,” Li replied.

Posted by: annie | Nov 16 2006 8:23 utc | 120

@annie – so Falun Gong folks make some calls to who-knows and records them and some Canadian pols have a translater (provided by whom?) translate those calls for them and find them damning – the pols then write a damning report about the Vhinese government (which puts two Chinese cities into the wrong provinces btw).
Falun Gong is a homophobic end-timers cult that the Chinese did forbid because they find it dangerous. Now that cult is providing such reports.
I see now reason to believe them.

Posted by: b | Nov 16 2006 8:54 utc | 121

b, you’re not alone
it still doesn’t explain the govt website saing 60,00 organs have been made available w/only 18,000 accounted for. china has a history of harvesting from executions before these latest allegations. i seriously doubt there is no illegal organ trafficing but from where, who knows.
even homophobic end-timers cult that the Chinese did forbid because they find it dangerous. do not deserve such fate.
Now that cult is providing such reports.
actually i think they hired experts to look into it for them. hey, who’s going to look out for people who are going to be executed anyway? in china once you are condemned to death they don’t let you hang out on a row for years to file appeals. they take you away and kill you in a matter of days/weeks. makes texas look like nursery school.

Posted by: annie | Nov 16 2006 9:18 utc | 122

Keeping quiet, listening, learning, and thinking.
Re boycotts – here is one for Coke –
Killer Coke – Murder – it’s the real thing
I note, though, on the Narco News web site in a story of the Zapatista policy meetings in the Mexican jungle, the Indians at drank Coke – it is safer and cheaper than water, and poverty forces the Indians to be very practical.
Re Falun Gong – I’d just like to add that this cult can be quite dangerous to its own members.
One of my Toronto friends had a wife who was a devout member. She developed a heart problem and refused to consider any medical procedures because that was contrary to Falun Gong, and Falun Gong practices would cure her. My friend was distraught. He went on the internet and found that that a certain supplement had a 30% chance of helping her. But she refused to consider that. It was impossible to put it into her food secretly because she had a very good sense of taste.
Nobody, no friends or relatives, could figure out how to persuade her to do anything that would depart from Falun Gong praying and whatever else they do.
Her Falun Gong friends were visiting, but stopped. She was getting sicker — so obviously she was not following the religion properly!
Three days before she died, she admitted to her husband that she had made a mistake. Unfortunately, by this time it was too late for doctors to do anything.
I have thought that the US uses the persecution of Falun Gong as a handy stick with which to beat the Chinese govt. over the head. Just as it beats the Germans over the head — in the Dept of State yearly human rights report — re the supposed persecution of a US import, a certain flying saucer cult.

Posted by: Owl | Nov 16 2006 9:58 utc | 123

So there’s healthy cults?

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Nov 16 2006 13:01 utc | 124

apparently, yes – christianity, judaism, islam, scientology…

Posted by: gmac | Nov 16 2006 14:13 utc | 125

Owl @123
“Her Falun Gong friends were visiting, but stopped. She was getting sicker — so obviously she was not following the religion properly!”
I’d bet dollars to doughnuts (mmmm, doughnuts), these same “friends” deride detractors as being lower on the information food chain…

Posted by: gmac | Nov 16 2006 14:54 utc | 126

Re: Falun Gong and Organ Harvesting by the Chinese Government.
Annie wrote (#122):
“actually i think they hired experts to look into it for them.”
I really don’t know anything about Falun Gong except for the 91 page report that former Secretary of State of the government of Canada for the Asia-Pacific region David Kilgour and international human rights lawyer David Matas submitted to the UN on 6 July 2006 and again to a US congressional human rights committee on 29 September 2006 (excerpted here. I have a full copy of the physical document in my possession).
They may well be a homophobic end-timers cult for all I know, but the investigation into these allegations does not come across as baseless propaganda to me.

Posted by: Monolycus | Nov 16 2006 14:57 utc | 127

i would like to move the discussion to a more useful plane of abstraction where it is possible to inspect and understand how to oppose a system of domination which, by its own logic of development, must culminate in murder and dispossession.”
Please do, I’ve been waiting. Not one of your posts since that one has moved a Planck length towards that plane.
Do you actually have an alternative or do you just enjoy baiting people? We get it. It is inarguably a world wide phenominon. Lead on Macduff and if you can’t, go back to your trolling the right-wing cultists for sport

Posted by: gmac | Nov 16 2006 15:15 utc | 128

Told ya…
Pentagon boosts ‘media war’ unit

The Pentagon sets up a unit to counter “inaccurate” stories, with the focus on the internet and blogs.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Nov 16 2006 15:56 utc | 129

@Unca (#129)
Apropos of nothing, I honestly thought the vidcap in your link was a photoshop of Dick Cheney in a beard and turban until I looked more closely.
Anyway, thanks and noted.

Posted by: Monolycus | Nov 16 2006 16:03 utc | 130

gmac
i sufficiently explained why the exchange relation itself implicates what you think you might know about “imperialism” and why boycott is misleading not so much because it has limited utility as a form of protest, but because it mystifies awareness of the operation of capitalist domination. reading through this thread proves w/out doubt the impenetrability of this mystification even among “leftists” like yourself gmac who will do anything to substitute critique for the thrill of bashing the u.s.
i’ll admit i’m not the best representative of the “left” but i think it’s weird my standard, traditional leftist views are rejected here w/out justifications.
and thanks monolycus for introjecting intelligence into this discussion and putting the thread back on course w/ a scurrilous link to the sale of body parts in china.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 16 2006 16:03 utc | 131

Did the princess of pointless digressions just scold me for straying from her pet topic?

Posted by: Monolycus | Nov 16 2006 16:05 utc | 132

more & more, this place deserves you. more & more.
i deeply regret people like rgiap have encouraged you here. it has been a disaster.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 16 2006 16:07 utc | 133

Well, Princess, you’re not going to run me off. That would be Bernhard’s purview, not yours. There is a simple expedient if you don’t like the compnay, however. I’ll leave it for your magnificent intellect to work out what that might be.

Posted by: Monolycus | Nov 16 2006 16:13 utc | 134

“the terrs have won”
a precise ramification, by monolycus:
a) my beautiful country is lost
b) i travel a lot
c) the black spheres, the black spheres
d) body parts in china
e) i read a 91 p. report about the falun gong
f) fuck, gmac gets it

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 16 2006 16:21 utc | 135

And slothrop in a nutshell…
Everything anyone proposes is inferior to whatever neural misfires go on in my own head… but you’ll have to take my word for that, because I won’t do more than cryptically suggest that I know best. Oh, and I randomly attack people. Again. And again. Oh, and I’m funny… which you’d understand if you knew as much as I do. But you don’t, and I won’t elaborate. So there. And if backed into a corner, I’ll change the subject and attack someone again. But it’s funny when I shit on people. Don’t try it at home. And did I mention I know everything?
You’re right, slothrop. You’re bringing a whole lot to the table here. How could I, or anyone else, possibly compete with that?

Posted by: Monolycus | Nov 16 2006 16:29 utc | 136

An alternative was not presented, nor did I expect one to be. All that is again and again repeated is that anything we’ve mentioned is ineffectual – personal actions have no consequence against this globalism. Even if billions of us behaved or acted in a similar fashion, nothing would come of it – evidence of the European rejection of the corporatist “consitution” notwithstanding.
Again slothrop, what alternative can you start us off with?
If truly interested in discussing a “more useful plane of abstraction where it is possible to inspect and understand how to oppose a system of domination which, by its own logic of development, must culminate in murder and dispossession.” then, what do you propose we do to oppose this system since, as you keep pointing out, everything anyone has done personally is wasted effort.
If truly interested in sussing this out, take us to this useful plane.

Posted by: gmac | Nov 16 2006 17:08 utc | 137

what was needed here was to show the hypocrisy of the kneejerk anti-u.s. reaction. i think i satisfied this goal by demonstrating the equivalency of effects of the exchange relation. there’s not as much difference as you might think between the results of postcolonial domination found in really any exchange of value, because value is determined by a global allocation of productive resources. not always, of course, but the imbrications of global capitalist domination are a big chunk of our daily structuration.
what to do? well, it’s obvious to me “boycott america” is not only impossible in most cases, but is an ideological obfuscation of power. this ideology runs deep among people who should better, as we’ve seen here, and i thank daldude #62 for being the only other poster here to confirm the problem.
what to do? i’d say first order of business is dispense with this ideology.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 16 2006 17:30 utc | 138

also, as daldude notes, whoever the schoolyard bully is, doesn’t really matter, so much as the system requires him:

Under conditions of private property and competition for profit, only a high degree of international concentration of economic and political-military power makes it possible to impose on the capitalist world currently pragmatic solutions in times of crisis, solutions that may or may not help the system overcome its difficulties, but that are imposed nevertheless. When that concentration of power is lacking, when there exist the classic conditions of “unstable equilibrium” among two, three, four, or even greater numbers of capitalist power blocs, then no decisions whatsoever can be imposed, and there occurs a general crisis of international capitalist leadership, which certainly does not help the system overcome its deep depressions more rapidly. Mandel, long waves p. 23

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 16 2006 17:49 utc | 139

it really is amazing the value of billmon’s suggested readings.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 16 2006 17:51 utc | 140

the reason why i posted 115 was to question the efficacy of arguing about marxism and the validity of boycotts. i presented herbert girardet because it seemed to me that he is working from and towards a new paradigm – to build a healthier, more holistic, sustainable world. i acknowledge that china is no closer to perfection than the u.s., but was impressed by the dongtan eco-city and that the chinese (as opposed to the u.s.) are making an effort to plan for a more environmentally sound and energy realistic future. personally, i found girardet’s work fascinating and inspiring. here is someone actually doing something that could possibly affect our future as a planet – it is only up to us to pay attention and be the agents of change in our individual lives and by forcing corporations and governments to respond to pressure.

Posted by: conchita | Nov 16 2006 18:44 utc | 141

>i>What we are discussing are the current actions of the American empire.
and i disagree w/ good reasons why i think this obsession is often unhelpful.
sorry if my argument fills you w/ “contempt.”

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 16 2006 19:36 utc | 142

I’ve been reading the diatribes here with growing disbelief – and contempt.
Is this sort of behaviour common here? Or just becoming so? At present the greatest source of evil in the world is the USA’s actions to shore up its hegemony. Aided and abetted by other others but the source is the American imperial drive. Previous empires did the same or worse. This is irrelevant. What we are discussing are the current actions of the American empire.
Some of us have the opportunity to express our disgust at this and shun to whatever extent we can those who benefit the most from it. In my case this is a mixture of self-interest, or self-preservation if you will, and our ethical beliefs which spring from my religious beliefs. B’s approach appears also to be one of enlightened self interest. I don’t know (and don’t care) if B has religious beliefs or not. I do care that that his ethical system has led him to do what he can against the American empire even if that is not very much and even if there have to be compromises with reality.
When we post this the reaction from two other readers in particular consists of ad hominem attacks combined with et tu quoque. This is very disappointing and quite frankly contemptible. Had I as a schoolboy attempted to use such rebuttals I would rightly have been sent from the classroom in disgrace.
Bloody hell.

Posted by: markfromireland | Nov 16 2006 20:16 utc | 143

slothrop describes what might be a wise understanding of sytems and systematic problems of domination. Yet slothrop also seems to subscribe to a “resistance is futile” approach at the individual level. Apparently, actual individuals are best off “relaxing, and learning to understand the horror”. Is this a fair appraisal? s?
What is telling, though, is the urge to abuse those who refuse to “relax”. If slothrop is right about how the systemic level works, slothrop may still be untrustworthy as the person to understand things systematic in ways that will actually allow us to envision ways to push back, allow us to envision a more humane world.
I think I agree with slothrop that we will have to roll with the punches, but I also think slothrop may be getting lost in the hive-social-mind and its characteristic ways of degrading the human.
But I will agree on another thing, sister s, slothrop’s behavior should not be blamed on being part of the Evil Empire.

Posted by: citizen | Nov 16 2006 20:38 utc | 144

Like hell you’re making “arguments” all you’re doing is making ad hominem attacks and et tu quo que. Those are fallacies not arguments. This is the last time I’m going to respond to you for two reasons:
1) Life is too short to waste on you and your ilk.
2) To paraphrase Paul of Tarsus “Round about the time it got hair round it I gave up on that sort of behaviour.”

Posted by: markfromireland | Nov 16 2006 20:56 utc | 145

“i’d say first order of business is dispense with this ideology”
Done. Keep going.

Posted by: gmac | Nov 16 2006 21:32 utc | 146

Report backs organ harvest claim Saturday July 8, 2006 CHINA – A respected Canadian human rights lawyer and a former Canadian Cabinet member have lent their weight to charges that China has been killing Falun Gong dissidents so it can use their organs.
which is of course far, far more heinous than killing Iraqis so we can use their oil…
or is it…

Posted by: DeAnander | Nov 16 2006 22:01 utc | 147

To try and satisfy the contrarian, consider that the top five arms dealers happen to be the un security council – US 48%; UK & Russia 18%; France 6%; China & sometimes Canada 2% (all approx but close) – for approx 92% of world sales.
Despite the huge disparity in amounts, we will consider it a 6 headed hydra (because we all know how smug, self-satisfied and high-horsey Canadians are). If the number of heads doesn’t suffice, feel free to splice on more. I thought it might be easier to align the stars for 6 and if word got around that the bigs were gearing up it might propagate amongst the other symbiotes.
To oppose this would require simultaneous popular events involving significant numbers of party goers standing around, chatting and generally having good harmless fun until people sit down and talk about things seriously, or the party people are inhumed by the peelers. Status quo ante clausus secui.

Posted by: gmac | Nov 16 2006 22:20 utc | 148

markfromireland
geez. what’s w/ the ad hominems?

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 16 2006 23:17 utc | 149

Done. Keep going.
apparently, not an easy belief-set to eject.
i reread this thread and i’ll b honest, i do not see any catastrophic collapse of civility. but that’s me. and it’s simply not true i have been uniquely remiss in the effort to adequately defend my pov.
the resort to militarism and death is the usual m.o. for capital. if it’s the u.s. today assembling the vanguard of destruction on behalf of the global capitalist class today, tomorrow it will be china. understanding the structural development of capital and the depravity of its contradictions is what leftists do. it’s what i’ve done here and i am unapologetic about the result.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 16 2006 23:55 utc | 150

@DeAnander (#147)
“which is of course far, far more heinous than killing Iraqis so we can use their oil…
or is it…”

It wasn’t a question of equivalence, it was a side comment to conchita who had brought up the subject of China. Nor was it an attempt to “beat China with a stick”. It was a story that I had become introduced to earlier in the day at a human rights rally I attended and was reminded of, again, by conchita’s reference.
Heinous is heinous, and although it never crossed my mind to contrast China with the United States, in retrospect, I should not be surprised that those who are prepared to excuse the one are quick to excuse the other (even though their complaint was that people are reflexively “pissing on America”). It also did not cross my mind that it could be a “Kuwaiti babies torn from incubators” story as Bernhard suggested it might be because I didn’t see an agenda on the part of those who wrote the report. I will concede that this is also a possibility, although it is not suggested that this is the result of a single incident, nor is it suggested in the examination that practitioners of Falun Gong are the only victims of such a policy, if such a policy actually exists.

Posted by: Monolycus | Nov 17 2006 0:27 utc | 151

fwiw. I saw this on bbc not so long ago.

Posted by: beq | Nov 17 2006 0:43 utc | 152

Ad Hominem
Tu Quoque

Posted by: Bea | Nov 17 2006 2:42 utc | 153

ad hominem music.
it’s not kim larsen or shibiduah.
you wanna rock? well, rock.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 17 2006 4:46 utc | 154

I haven’t been able to contribute to this thread lately although I wish I could have.
I will restate my point from two days ago: people exercising their political will though boycotts or any other method is a Good Thing.
Watch, think, discuss, think twice; act. Boycotts can be powerful, and they are a safe political action. Not the end but certainly a good beginning.

Posted by: Anonymous | Nov 17 2006 8:37 utc | 155

…but the imbrications of global capitalist domination are a big chunk of our daily structuration.
Ah yes…I believe I’m beginning to finally get it.
But could you please tell us what are the other “chunks” of our daily structuration? And how do these “chunks” differ from our monthly structuration, and our yearly? Or, rather, do these “chunks” lead us to structurate on an ever more rapid basis. And is it true, as I’ve heard, that Marxists structurate feverishly in the dark, finding valuation in mutual exchange relationships.
Having not read Marx since college, decades past — and, now in middle age, lacking the time necesary to commit the guru’s entire opus to heart, I am clearly unable to gain much from castleton’s slothrup’s cryptic musings — which themselves are eliptical distillations of the impenetrable cant of the master — the proverbial riddle within the enigma within the mystery, etc. If Marxists wrote the texts for Chinese fortune cookies, sloppyrump slothrup would have found his metiér.
What I am trying to say is that there is always a kernel of truth to rashslut’s slothrup’s insights, such as this one that the structural relationship of capitalistic exchange possesses an inherently violent nature, but these insights are never developed into a framework of knowledge, or a prescription for right action. Rather in rottenstunt’s slothrup’s inimitable “friendly” way they are used as poison darts which are cast down from Mount Olympus Marx, in order to destroy any dialogue or mutual exchange, and the learning, understanding, and compassion which might then occur.
Nevertheless, I find myself as strangely stirred within by soughtlust’s slothrup’s selflessly effacing and generous attempts to talk at me, if not actually down to me, as I am by his implicit imbrication implication that the perfection of Marxist satori is one which we all should strive to experience.
And yet, sadly, I am led to the conclusion that oddstunt slothrup is trapped in an autistic, solipsistic, universe where the perfect parabolas traced by his Marxist kensho, the deep insights of dialectical materialism, render the experiences of all others nugatory, and the poison-tipped darts of slatternrope’s slothrup’s unique knowledge negate the basic collective human instincts of all others for understanding, compassion and right action as useless, or worse, harmful.
Oh, great guru! Oh Bodhisatva slasher’up slothrup! I bow down before your illimitable brilliance — before a light so bright that I am freed from all need for right thought or action at all, but instead am permitted to bask in the warm catholic rays of mercy of Karlist dialectical materialism — an insight so deep that all are completely freed from the bondage of human toil, suffering, and immiseration (if not old age, sickness, and death) — and now bound inextricably within the heart of the Mystery (or is it enigma, or riddle?) School of Marx, Dialectical Materialism (DM™), instantly transported to the heavenly realm of Mount Karl, humanity is freed to an eternity of ever increasing (or is it decreasing?) structuration, with no fear whatsoever of harmful imbrication.
For truly lostpup slothrup, Karlism is better than Carlism, or any other “ism” in the world. Ooops, compassion and understanding aren’t “isms.”

Posted by: Anonymous | Nov 17 2006 12:05 utc | 156

…but the imbrications of global capitalist domination are a big chunk of our daily structuration.
Ah yes…I believe I’m beginning to finally get it.
But could you please tell us what are the other “chunks” of our daily structuration? And how do these “chunks” differ from our monthly structuration, and our yearly? Or, rather, do these “chunks” lead us to structurate on an ever more rapid basis. And is it true, as I’ve heard, that Marxists structurate feverishly in the dark, finding valuation in mutual exchange relationships.
Having not read Marx since college, decades past — and, now in middle age, lacking the time necesary to commit the guru’s entire opus to heart, I am clearly unable to gain much from castleton’s slothrup’s cryptic musings — which themselves are eliptical distillations of the impenetrable cant of the master — the proverbial riddle within the enigma within the mystery, etc. If Marxists wrote the texts for Chinese fortune cookies, sloppyrump slothrup would have found his metiér.
What I am trying to say is that there is always a kernel of truth to rashslut’s slothrup’s insights, such as this one that the structural relationship of capitalistic exchange possesses an inherently violent nature, but these insights are never developed into a framework of knowledge, or a prescription for right action. Rather in rottenstunt’s slothrup’s inimitable “friendly” way they are used as poison darts which are cast down from Mount Olympus Marx, in order to destroy any dialogue or mutual exchange, and the learning, understanding, and compassion which might then occur.
Nevertheless, I find myself as strangely stirred within by soughtlust’s slothrup’s selflessly effacing and generous attempts to talk at me, if not actually down to me, as I am by his implicit imbrication implication that the perfection of Marxist satori is one which we all should strive to experience.
And yet, sadly, I am led to the conclusion that oddstunt slothrup is trapped in an autistic, solipsistic, universe where the perfect parabolas traced by his Marxist kensho, the deep insights of dialectical materialism, render the experiences of all others nugatory, and the poison-tipped darts of slatternrope’s slothrup’s unique knowledge negate the basic collective human instincts of all others for understanding, compassion and right action as useless, or worse, harmful.
Oh, great guru! Oh Bodhisatva slasher’up slothrup! I bow down before your illimitable brilliance — before a light so bright that I am freed from all need for right thought or action at all, but instead am permitted to bask in the warm catholic rays of mercy of Karlist dialectical materialism — an insight so deep that all are completely freed from the bondage of human toil, suffering, and immiseration (if not old age, disease, and death) — and now bound inextricably within the heart of the Mystery (or is it enigma, or riddle?) School of Marx, Dialectical Materialism (DM™), instantly transported to the heavenly realm of Mount Karl, humanity is freed to an eternity of ever increasing (or is it decreasing?) structuration, with no fear whatsoever of harmful imbrication.
For truly lostpup slothrup, Karlism is better than Carlism, or any other “ism” in the world. Ooops, compassion and understanding aren’t “isms.” My bad!

Posted by: Bob M. | Nov 17 2006 12:13 utc | 157

My bad, again! Sorry for the (almost identical) double post. My bad, my bad, my bad. I beg for mercy from ye Karlist Gods!

Posted by: Bob M. | Nov 17 2006 12:18 utc | 158

bwahhh –
now how do I clean this keyboard and who gets me a new coffee?

Posted by: Anonymous | Nov 17 2006 13:23 utc | 159

Try slothrup’s New! Improved! Dialectical Materialism™ Mopper Upper™ to clean your keyboard. It also removes all traces of liberal, or any other, type of guilt or self-remorse.
Sorry, can’t help you with your coffee commodification fixation.

Posted by: Bob M. | Nov 17 2006 13:38 utc | 160

“the resort to militarism and death is the usual m.o. for capital. if it’s the u.s. today assembling the vanguard of destruction on behalf of the global capitalist class today, tomorrow it will be china.”
Duh, Ya think?
This is not news to anyone here, despite your exhortations to the contrary. What would be news is you providing the tiniest kernel of a solution.
I’m not asking you to defend your pov, I’ve accepted it. Please expound on your notion of what an effective opposition would be, if any…

imagine the pithy put-down pointing out my lack of understanding or acceptance of the proffered definition of the problem at hand.

The subject of the discussion, or bitch session, was initially amerika, but as was repeated ad nauseam, this pov isn’t wide enough. Here’s mine.
Your lack of moving the discussion (a discussion you want to have) forward towards any meaningful solution to a problem of your definition and pov shows this useful plane of yours eludes even you. Unless it involves one hand on the keyboard and the other in your pants, furiously proving to yourself what a legend you are in your own mind. At least you’re ambidextrous. Take solace in that.
I have written your name on a potsherd…

Posted by: gmac | Nov 17 2006 13:48 utc | 161

You may also find sourlip’s slothrup’s Dialectical Materialism Manager™ useful for demystifying any naive assumptions you may hold about Fair Trade, Living Wage, and any other of those bourgeoise laborious relations.

Posted by: Bob M. | Nov 17 2006 14:02 utc | 162

In any event, I’ll take r’giap’s radical knowledge and gracious understanding, DebsisDead’s affronted combativeness, Billmon’s coy glibness, b’s scientific detachment, Monolycus’s naive ingenuousness, Uncle $cam’s allusive link’s and even Malooga’s (whatever happened to him?) petty bourgeoise explications, to soreloser’s slothrup’s puissant (pissant?), yet altogether otiose, arrogance.

Posted by: Anonymous | Nov 17 2006 14:17 utc | 163

That was me, inveighing against softlump slothrup, again. (Note that, unlike slot’erup’s malignant ad hominems, I self-censor my cruelest personal thoughts.)

Posted by: Bob M. | Nov 17 2006 14:23 utc | 164

sputter, sputter, giggle, outright guffaw. made my morning. chuckling and snortling back to work.

Posted by: Anonymous | Nov 17 2006 14:24 utc | 165

I can’t seem to stop myself from coming back to look at this thread from time to time, but I feel like I’m rubbernecking at a bloody wreck.

Posted by: fauxreal | Nov 17 2006 15:46 utc | 166

faux,
I second that.

Posted by: a swedish kind of death | Nov 17 2006 15:52 utc | 167

gmac
say what you want, but it was obvious this thread was inspired by a bad faith to kick at the u.s. and so i responded to, in part, your shallow protest to not consume the nfl and the callow insecurity of monolycus as he suffers from afar the loss of his beloved land, etc. and other maudlin scenes of expat handwringing. and now, you revise the initial debate by declaring the goal to be universal manumition of the soul or the rescue of the moon from its orbit or something big, which i never offered, and cannot supply you.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 17 2006 16:45 utc | 168

bob m.
you hurt me.
from now on, i’m doing parodies.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 17 2006 16:49 utc | 169

I thought you were all along — just not as good as mine.

Posted by: Bob M. | Nov 17 2006 16:59 utc | 170

bob
on the knucklehead websites, the posters always say shit like “i read a little marx in college and…”
whatever.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 17 2006 17:13 utc | 171

I was going to say: “Money is the root of all evil” but obviously it would not be enough.

Posted by: pb | Nov 17 2006 17:43 utc | 172

who wept at the romance of the streets with their pushcarts full of onions and bad music,
who sat in boxes breathing in the darkness under the bridge, and rose up to build harpsichords in their lofts
who turned off the world series and turned on curling from winnepeg lighting the cathode ray with his smoldering levis humming o canada in the foam of his molsen bottle, and the echoes of death in his head were inhumed
and whose voyages took him nowhere to korea and never far enough from the styrene black spheres of america, and his d&d glossary were stained by kimchi
and who found ghandi in a glass of spilled akvavit, and the sound of america’s farting dissolved in the cold wind blowing off of fyn, but now he is cold

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 17 2006 18:10 utc | 173

I might have only read a little Marx, but at least I don’t come from Fynen, or copy Allen Ginsburg’s metric lines.

Posted by: Bob M. | Nov 17 2006 19:03 utc | 174

that’s because you’re dumb, bob.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 17 2006 19:04 utc | 175

erratum:
it should be:’ and whose trustfunded voyages…
sorry bout that.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 17 2006 19:11 utc | 176

“i don’t know much about marx, but…”
that makes me laugh everytime.
“i haven’t seen that movie borat, but…” someone recently said here.
hilarious.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 17 2006 19:15 utc | 177

@ slothrup #168,
you equate gmac’s #161
What would be news is you providing the tiniest kernel of a solution.
I’m not asking you to defend your pov, I’ve accepted it. Please expound on your notion of what an effective opposition would be, if any…

with your
you revise the initial debate by declaring the goal to be universal manumition of the soul or the rescue of the moon from its orbit or something big, which i never offered, and cannot supply you
how clever,
as is your haute vocabulary
hope the absinthe agrees with you
what a waste of electrons

Posted by: andrew in caledon | Nov 17 2006 19:15 utc | 178

andrew
can’t you read? the dissent here among our luxurious expat et al. comrades was: heroic bourgeois boycott. i replied the “solution” was ludicrously bourgeois. embarassingly so. and anyway, now he knows it, but, in the absence of any theory justifying action, may as well stomp on america anyhow.
fucked up.
i get these puerile admonitions from the likes of you ever since i came here. it really is ironic i’m the one who “personalizes” attacks. if i had a goddamned moa archive (please!?) i could prove it is me at the end of ad hominems for 2 years. because i pose as “marxist”–and you can’t handle it.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 17 2006 19:27 utc | 179

i should add too the america gmac stomps on and the america of monolycus’s weepy yearnings, is an abstraction limned by nostalgia and shoddy analysis.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 17 2006 19:49 utc | 180

and the cruelest paradox: the possibility of all querulous pleasures of this “dissent,” what makes possible this construction of amerivca as devilmatrix of everything BAD, is boots on the ground, baby.
better hope “america” “wins.”

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 17 2006 19:55 utc | 181

better hope “america” “wins.”
so sayeth the anti-capitalist ! — NOT

Posted by: andrew in caledon | Nov 17 2006 20:14 utc | 182

slothrup-
Why not put a single word in each of your posts. That way you can stretch your single idea further.
By the way, I stated that I had only read a little Marx as fact. Clearly that disqualifies me from arguing the finer points of Marxist Theory — something I have never attempted to do, on any blog. I do not think though that disqualifies me from opining on politics, social justice, ecology, and the state of the world. I know that you disagree on this point: Only Marxist scholars can understand the state and fate of the world.
Hun har sagt så det hjem vi ska’ lukke
du har været her alt for længe

It’s OK sad sack, I’ll let you get the last word in; you clearly need it.
Dumb Bob M.

Posted by: Bob M. | Nov 17 2006 22:41 utc | 183

angiver du et besyv? jeg kender hvor du finder alle dine anskuelser, men, hvis jeg forklarer hvorhen, forklaringen vil være en ad hominem.
osv
fuck you.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 17 2006 23:12 utc | 184

I was going to say: “Money is the root of all evil” but obviously it would not be enough.

From the local chapter of the international society of pedants: the original of this frequently-misstated proverb is “the love of money is the root of all evil.” It makes a lot more sense that way, if you start to think about it — and agrees with the consensus from this forum about greed, too.

(Sorry; I’ve seen it the shortened way five times in the last 24 hours, and it’s beginning to grate on my nerves. Since this thread has already degenerated into silliness, I doubt I’m spoiling it for anyone by spouting off here. Everyone needs a safety valve.)

Posted by: The Truth Gets Vicious When You Corner It | Nov 17 2006 23:15 utc | 185

also mark
your blog sucks

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 17 2006 23:37 utc | 186

I do not think though that disqualifies me from opining on politics, social justice, ecology, and the state of the world.
yeah it does. do you know any sociall/legal theorists who haven’t seriously studied marx? habermas, giddens, castells, luhmann, etc.? i can’t think of anyone except oprah.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 18 2006 0:03 utc | 187

I love the quality of discourse here.

Posted by: Dick Cheney | Nov 18 2006 1:02 utc | 188

Dude!

Posted by: fauxreal | Nov 18 2006 3:36 utc | 189

I do not think though that disqualifies me from opining on politics, social justice, ecology, and the state of the world.
yeah it does. do you know any sociall/legal theorists who haven’t seriously studied marx? habermas, giddens, castells, luhmann, etc.?
Just almost expired. Of a laughing sucking chest wound!
Hopefully we can create this magic moment tomorrow.
If we are really, reealy bored.

Posted by: Quincy | Nov 18 2006 4:02 utc | 190

do you know any quincy?
no you don’t.
“i don’t read marx, but…”
hilarious.
you have to reject marx without knowing why. because daddy tells you to.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 18 2006 4:13 utc | 191

can germans rock?

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 18 2006 4:16 utc | 192

even milton fucking freidman read marx.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 18 2006 4:22 utc | 193

he’ll go to hell, but this is an invaluable read.
but if daddy says no, well don’t read it. by all means.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 18 2006 4:28 utc | 194

mark was just pimpin his blog. and it sucks anyway.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 18 2006 4:32 utc | 195

Take two Segolene’s and call me in the morning.

Posted by: Proudhon | Nov 18 2006 4:34 utc | 196

drugs today:
detrol: 2mg
uroquid: 8 mg
lipitor: 10 mg
ambien: half
two glasses shit red table wine
no anti-depressants
fuck you.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 18 2006 5:26 utc | 197

This is what happens when Billmon misses a day of posting.

Posted by: Bored Madman | Nov 18 2006 5:31 utc | 198

i think as virulent as many are here to critique US imperialism….it sounds odd that one will not question the “nature” of the exchange value auspiced as moral under capitalism….as a point of departure for critique rather than bland moralizing about this or that….
at minimum: anyone capable of reading social theory sees that the exchange value is not only under capitalism but also anthropolgically speaking a way to exercise power. and not a way to romanticize a bunch of tribal collectiveist ideas–where everyone lives in a land of rainbows and sexy waterfalls.
the exchange value and it’s “nature” (which is domination) is what is really at question. as Debord says: the spectacle is a social relation among people. which is the same as the exchange value elevated (metaphor) to images.

Posted by: Sam Curtis | Nov 18 2006 5:31 utc | 199

just reread markfromirelamd’s blog.
seriously. a pile of shit.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 18 2006 5:31 utc | 200