Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
November 22, 2006
Democracy

Mr. DeJoia has a very distinctive comprehension of Democracy. His definition seems to be similar to the one used by the White House.

When mining companies started calling tribal offices last year, Navajo President Joe Shirley Jr. issued an edict to employees: Don’t answer any questions. Report all contacts to the Navajo attorney general.
[…]
After the measure took effect in April 2005, mining concerns kept calling the Navajo capital, Window Rock, Ariz., hoping to secure support for their projects. So Shirley signed Executive Order 02-2005, which instructs tribal employees to avoid any "communications with uranium company representatives."

The directive infuriated mining executives. "You tell me, what kind of a democracy is that?" asked John DeJoia, a Strathmore vice president. "They’ve got tremendous resources out there. They’re a very poor nation. That could change."
Mining firms again eyeing Navajo land

(BTW: This LAT series about Uranium mining and the Navajos is quite good.)

Comments

when this subject came up recently on moon i started google diving for some links to support my thoughts here and got so absorbd and diverted it wiped away 1/2 day. being of foggy mind(usual lately) i will dispense w/links;
a hopi prophecy is the the final destruction of this world will come from beneath the ground from one of their (hopi) sacred sites, big mountain. this area was ‘given’ to the navajos (the dineh nation) right in the heart of hopi land by the US government. my history on this is a little mushy. the area was given away, and the US gov attempted to take it back once the plutonium was discovered. i had the honor of attending a gathering w/about 3000 others (give or take) about 10 years ago @ big mountain. the hopis surrounded the entrance to keep others out of ‘their’ sacred site. our caravan of gypsies also traveled for hrs thru the hopi land for what seemed like forever in some don juan journey being sent on endless loops by the hopis after being invited to the site by the dinehs. the joke was on us! only after being led to an incredible ledge to rest for the night w/visits from hopi elders were we allowed directions to the entrance. only when we arrived was the story of the area revealed to us. i experienced some very magical moments on the land. truley earth moving. the protectors of this land are not just protecting their sacred site. they are protecting the globe and feel it is their sacred duty to their creator. we are truly fortunate, truly.

Posted by: annie | Nov 22 2006 19:14 utc | 1

thanks for the link! also see Leetso, the Powerful Yellow Monster: A Navajo Cultural Interpretation of Uranium Mining

Posted by: b real | Nov 23 2006 3:50 utc | 2

and if anyone needs a login for the la times article, there’s one here

Posted by: b real | Nov 23 2006 4:02 utc | 3

See also the works of Ward Churchill, particularly “Struggle for the Land” and “Acts of Rebellion” for background. Also recommended on this day is the enlightening collection of essays on Indian affairs from a Marxist perspective by Louis Proyect, particularly Energy Tribes and the following essay, Ecology and the American Indian. Unregenerate Marxists, such as slothrup, should stay away from Proyect’s fascinating and informative historical reflection, Russell Means, the RCP and Jean Baudrillard, as Proyect, an actual thinking Marxist, dares to criticize Our Lord and Savior Karl.

Posted by: Bob M. | Nov 23 2006 18:46 utc | 4

bob
your blog sucks.
no “marxist” i know would reflexively defend “expansion of productive” forces as the end-all of succesful communism. the relations of production in a socialist society accommodate shifting notions of necessity & freedom. unfortunately, such accommodation cannot compete against capitalist accumulation made possible by the exploitation of primitive accumulation.
also, it’s foolish to believe indigenes epitomize(d) sustainability and “harmony.”
ps
your blog sucks

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 23 2006 19:36 utc | 5

also, it’s foolish to believe indigenes epitomize(d) sustainability and “harmony.”
not actually so foolish when you compare the condition of the landbase for, say, the 10,000 plus years of livelihood prior to conquest against the 500 plus since. at the rate industrial “civilization” is petering out, the indigenes were pretty mf’ing balanced imo. just saying…

Posted by: b real | Nov 24 2006 4:13 utc | 6

bob
your blog sucks.

ps
your blog sucks

Thank you, slothrup, as usual, for your steadfast commitment to raising the level of discourse and argument on this blog.

Posted by: Bob M. | Nov 24 2006 14:28 utc | 7

ps
It’s not my blog. And I don’t agree with everything Proyect says or believes in. But I do respect the body of his work.

Posted by: Bob M. | Nov 24 2006 14:30 utc | 8

it seems odd to me “indian” encompasses in a unitary way the edenic other of “civilization” (capitalist mode of production, possessive individualism, property, “development”). as i understand it, based on what little i’ve read, the technological /social disparities among precolumbian indians was immense, not to mention the occurrences of society-wide failure due to exaustion of carrying capacity, war, etc. it’s also not obvious to me a generalized perspective among indians existed to permit optimal allocation of resources achieving “balance.” after all, there seem to be a consensus among persons who know about these things that the old world “environment” was anthropogenic. but, i’m no expert and there are others here who know much more than I. i’ve only read pop stuff suggested here by moa folks: diamond, the mann book, fatal shore guy, barry lopez, jane something or other sugested by deanander, etc. but the impression i have is the commonality among indians is precapitalist exchange. to the extent this relation reduces ecological disaster and heirarchy, and it does/has, socialism is its complement. what proyect describes is a socialism of the ppostwar period whose success depended utterly on an emulation of capitalist “development.” the track record of the 5 year plans alone is enough to prove what a disaster this was. i think though, the view socialism is an antithesis to some impossibly pristine harmony is a strawman arg. intended to ingratiate marxism with indian activists.
what was the jane lady’s name btw?

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 24 2006 16:40 utc | 9

jane jacobs. spaced.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 24 2006 16:45 utc | 10

about the accommodation of socialism w/ sustainability, samir amin puts it nicely in a way proyect perhaps should have:

By making the maximization of growth the ultimate objective, an absolute value, one reduces social science to economism. However, the discovery in recent years, in connection with criticism of the Soviet experience, that the maximum rate of growth ought not to be sought regardless of cost has suddenly rendered labor-intensive tech [593] niques attractive, thanks to a medley of hippie ideology, return to the myth of the golden age and the noble savage, and criticism of the reality of the capitalist world. It is on these mistaken foundations that some people have interpreted some aspects of Chinese policy, isolated from their general context and the line of development in which they have occurred.
A socialist plan is certainly not defined in economistic terms, but it includes the economic element and does not reject this: if it did, it would be ineffective. Complete socialism will necessarily be based on a modern high-productivity economy. There is no conflict between modernity and socialism: on the contrary, socialism cannot but be more modern than capitalism. To suppose the contrary is to believe that what is wrong is due to technique and not to the social system within which this technique expresses itself. On the contrary, it is the capitalist mode of production that conflicts with modernization and distorts its potentialities.

It is by ridding society of the limits that the capitalist mode of production imposes on it that mankind can emerge from economic alienation, simultaneously freeing the productive forces. There is no conflict between the growth and development of consciously socialist forces and the creation of a worldwide socialist civilization. Whenever there seems to be such a conflict it is because the problem has been wrongly presented, whether this be done in economistic terms or by negation of economics-which is merely the other side of the same coin. accumulation on a world scale 593-94

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 24 2006 21:57 utc | 11

as i understand it, based on what little i’ve read
If you haven’t studied it, you do not understand it and you are unqualified to comment upon it.
slothrop, what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. On a previous thread, you derided anyone who had not taken the time to commit the entire Marxist canon to memory — heart as well as mind — as patently unqualified to opine about the directions society may take. The same may be said about someone who has willfully ignored understanding and integrating the experiences of 10,000+ years of mankind’s development in favor of several hundred years of unsustainable resource consumption.
Perhaps you might benefit by reading Ward Churchill’s arguments about why he turned from Marxism to Indigenism. But then a full professor who has authored over twenty books is probably no match for an advanced intellect such as yours. Oh, and I must add, based upon your puerile comments on this and previous threads, I can only believe your moral development to be concommitant with your intellectual.

Posted by: Bob M. | Nov 24 2006 22:21 utc | 12

“i haven’t read marx, but…”
say it again, bob. i need a chuckle.
but, sure. i’d like to read churchill’s take. i’ve only read his reader and the chickens book.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 24 2006 22:37 utc | 13

it’s foolish to believe indigenes epitomize(d) sustainability and “harmony.”
by whose standards? indigenes people from the americas had such a radically different value system and retributions for not honoring them. the ‘worth’ of something is inherent in its energy therefore when you consumer something you consume the ‘properties’ of your consumption. similar to us in theory except that the properties we place on something are entirely different as we are not acknowledging or respecting the same kind of ‘energy’. we value the physical properties and completely disregard the spiritual properties of our consumtion, hence, the waste. when we have waste it piles up and becomes a burden, we ignore it. when your waste is spiritual those properties can haunt you and mess w/your psyche. also the idea of ownership was so divorced from ours there is no comparison whose is more ethical. it stuns me when i consider how generations of indigenes peoples left the planet for us honoring the land and not the (ego)footprint apon it.

Posted by: annie | Nov 24 2006 23:10 utc | 14

Give it up slothrop, your becoming the Shah of Blah. Go smoke some prozac or something, like I do….lol
It will chill ya out hir brother/sister…
Take a big hit blow it out slowly and watch this snazzy little toon:
(The G.O.P. as Dr. Utopia).

This 1948 cartoon, conceived as a warning of the dangers of State Capitalism, stands on its own as a warning against Conservatism & the Bush administration.

Perhaps it will turn your frown upside down ;-p
“A sense of humor, properly developed, is superior to any religion [or ism] so far devised….”
“Ehrlichda”!

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Nov 24 2006 23:24 utc | 15

actually, there is something i recall from his reader, which i cannot presently find. based on what i recall, his “indigenism” rejects marx based on the view marxism is a perfection of the mode of production, and, as i recall, this only deepens the detachment of humanity from nature. as i recall, in some ways, indigenism corresponds to the dialectic of enlightenment arg (mastery of nature is also the domination of men over men) made by the frankfurters, and postmodern args against reason as a master trope of domination. sure. these are formidable args. my problem w/ chiurchill’s take, based on what i recall and always subject to correction, is a kind of prelapsarian fantasy about indian life. i’m suspicious when generalized but legitimate abstractions about human social development are ejected to support such fantaies. for example, it is true that agrarian societies tend to develop writing which leads to bureacraticv organization and money and the centralization/concentration of productive resources. as i recall, subject to emendation is my recollection, “indigenism” rejects these tendencies of developmejt for holistic consciousnes of balance anticipating and prioritizing the effects of such development on the quality of preferred way of life. at the time i read this, churchill’s views seemed to me to be naive.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 24 2006 23:32 utc | 16

it stuns me when i consider how generations of indigenes peoples left the planet for us honoring the land and not the (ego)footprint apon it.<'/i>
with all due respect, annie, the historical record doesn’t really match this belief. indians, in radically different ways (maya, inka, aztec, mississipian cultures, etc etc.) left “footprints” which were not always benign.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 24 2006 23:37 utc | 17

i just smoked some dmt.
“take me to dmt place on my firrrrre-engiiiine”–roky erikson.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 24 2006 23:46 utc | 18

slothrop, I don’t believe you could do that and still write. but my beliefs i know don’t alter any facts.
Native/indigenous cultural systems offer something we’ve forgotten in Euro (dominator) centered cultures. Flawed as they may have been vis-a-vis our utopian ideals, they seemed to inculcate a moral/spiritual sense long ago buried in today’s dominant world cultures.
My earlier links on the Thanksgiving thread suggest that the indigenous captives always returned to their own when possible while the Euro captives always opted for the indigenous. That in itself says a whole picture worth of words.

Posted by: Juannie | Nov 25 2006 0:17 utc | 19

“Native/indigenous cultural systems offer something we’ve forgotten in Euro (dominator) centered cultures. Flawed as they may have been vis-a-vis our utopian ideals, they seemed to inculcate a moral/spiritual sense long ago buried in today’s dominant world cultures.”
very true.
in the utopian Euro-centric (members from all races) utopia, none other cultures matter. Every other culture/spiritual-mold is compartmentalized to the subordinate.
this is the massive error that will unfold, as the Euro-centric attributions & cordinates of others crumbles.

Posted by: jony_b_cool | Nov 25 2006 1:45 utc | 20

Annie: Aztecs were such swine that the rest of Mexico helped Cortez. Mayans wrecked their society with war and were big believers in human sacrifice. And Aztec, Maya, Inca were typical serf/master states. Some of the Pacific South American states were interesting, and it may be that there were some very interesting nations in Brazil, and the 6 nations were smart, if violent, but all men are brothers and it’s a nasty family.

Posted by: citizen k | Nov 25 2006 2:14 utc | 21

juannie and jbc, coming from new england roots and transplanted to hawai’i’s big island i can personally attest to the truth of your words. i cannot be more grateful for the comeuppance i received or for the exposure to eastern and polynesian cultural wisdom, history, and lore. i believe that, for most, until you are removed from your cultural niche (or it is invaded) you have no true concept of what exists beyond it. sadly, even in new england which is teaming with institutions of higher learning, this still tends to breed xenophobia, stagnance, and cultural/spiritual ignorance.

Posted by: conchita | Nov 25 2006 2:21 utc | 22

my problem w/ chiurchill’s take, based on what i recall and always subject to correction, is a kind of prelapsarian fantasy about indian life.
This is another of your more ridiculous solipsistic views, slothrop. You, or your blog persona, appears to be some sort of immature skandinavian hyper-intellectual marxist romanticist or idealist, with little connection to the functionings of real society. Churchill is an actual Native American activist who deals with actual real-life situations and protest forms on a daily basis. He has risked his life, livelihood, and freedom for his views. His current struggles with the University of Colorado belie any sort of fantasies about Indian life, pre-lapsarian or otherwise.
as i recall, in some ways, indigenism corresponds to the dialectic of enlightenment arg (mastery of nature is also the domination of men over men) made by the frankfurters, and postmodern args against reason as a master trope of domination.
That is a pretty piss-poor definition of indigenism — which brings into focus both your ignorance and contempt for the concept, similar to your reactionary contempt for Bookchin’s ecological concerns, where you were reduced to calling those making inconvenient arguments “petty bourgeois,” the ultimate juvenile Marxist smear.
I’m not going to take the time or effort to fully flesh out the concept for someone as dismissive as you. However I will point you to a current list of indigenous concerns: Cultural and linguistic preservation, land rights, ownership and exploitation of natural resources, political determination and autonomy, environmental degradation and incursion, poverty, health, and discrimination. Modern indigenism can be seen as an attempt by both indigenous and settler cultures to reconnect with the land, the eco-system, and sustainable ways of relating to it. An indigenist would be more proud of his knowledge of the weeds growing under his feet than how many foreign countries he has visited. (This should give you enough ammunition to distort and attack.)
Some might be interested in this interview with Álvaro García Linera: Marxism and Indigenism in Bolivia: A Dialectic of Dialogue and Conflict.

JRW: You wrote an article recently in Barataria on Marxism and Indigenism in Bolivian history. Can you describe, historically and contemporaneously, what are the contradictions between Indigenism and Marxism, and what are the possibilities of a union between the two?
AGL: Here in Bolivia, Marxism as an ideology is about 60 or 70 years old, with a presence in intellectual circles. In the first period, a very marginal Marxism, whose referent was Tristan Marof, was present in the 1920s. He was very similar to José Mariátegui in Peru toward Indians. According to some historians they were planning an uprising in Sucre, the indigenous people, Tristan Marof, and his four lawyers. It’s a very interesting historical presence. And this, this first encounter between Marxism – small, marginal, a few intellectuals – and the practical indigenous movement was broken in the 1940s when two big currents, already much more consolidated, installed themselves here in Bolivia: the Trostkyists and the Stalinists.
They were already political currents with an organizational structure. They had more people, were more inclusive. And they abandoned whatever close connection with Indians, and dedicated themselves to working strictly with workers. That is, if the revolution was to be from the workers, and socialism was what was coming, the task was to look for workers, and the Indians didn’t exist, or were petty bourgeoisies, or were slaves who had to be liberated by the workers.
A very primitive reading of the indigenous population, and in this way it broke a fruitful, very beautiful, relationship between Indians and Marxists, opting for another type of Marxism better connected to the workers’ sectors. It was an extremely primitive Marxism because it couldn’t be a conveyor of critical tools that could help the theory adapt itself to a reality that wasn’t Europe, that wasn’t Russia, a reality where there were indigenous people, other languages, other cultures, and where workers were a tiny part of the population. In sum, it couldn’t succeed.
This distance between indigenous people and Marxism easily lasted until the 1980s. And in these years, during the 1970s, the indigenous movement and its leaders surged forward once again. And these manual Marxists, primitive Marxists, simply saw the Indians as reactionaries because they wanted to talk about historical themes that weren’t relevant to social revolution, or they were petty bourgeois, or they were racists. This Marxism lasted from the 1940s until the 1980s, and couldn’t get closer to, it didn’t read correctly, the indigenous movements, and so the social facts collided. And therefore here the indigenous movement of the 1970s and 1980s rose up in confrontation with Marxism, not only in confrontation with liberal ideologies. No, they also rose up against Marxists because the Marxists considered them to be counterrevolutionaries and racists. As a result, one of the slogans of the indigenists of the1980s was “ni Marx ni menos” or “neither Marx nor less,” because there had been a confrontation between them, not recognition.
In the 1980s this confrontation between the two would attenuate because there was a defeat of the Left in Bolivia. These Marxists lost influence in the mines that were closing, lost influence in the factories that were closing, and lost historical legitimacy because of the failure of administration of the UDP (Democratic Popular Union) government (in power from 1982-1985). They became a marginal sector. And the indigenists who had been rising up with force would quickly be coopted by NGOs (non-governmental organizations), or by the state that started a series of reforms under multicultural neoliberalism.
Therefore, in the 1980s and 1990s, to talk of active indianisms and marxisms isn’t relevant, because what was prevalent was a debate of modernizing ideologies between liberals. However, small, marginal groups like us, were looking for, continue looking for – very much at the margins, very isolated – an articulation between Indianism and Marxism. Something we did in the 1980s, was an effort to give body to the ethnic demand through a reading of the role of national identities in revolutionary processes, the role of agrarian communities and the possible transformation of capitalism, a study that was detailed, but in these moments was without influence.
We tried to give body to the theme of revindicating nationalities, to transcend mere description of ethnicity and its politicization, like the national identity demand. We tried to transcend mere ethnic discourse to a discourse of indigenous nationalism.
We tried in the 1980s, but without much influence. But these things we worked on in the 1980s – in the distinct scenario of the 2000s, in a scenario of political crisis, in a scenario of the weakening of neoliberal ideologies, and the weakness of the traditional Marxists – were going to find more fertile ground, between certain ideas that we had worked on from the margins, of some Marxists who wanted to dialogue with Indianism. Since 2000 these ideas have had more force. They’ve succeeded in expanding themselves to other intellectuals, to the level of social movement leaders. And there is a revitalizing of Indianism. But already this was not an Indianism in confrontation with Marxists because the Marxists of the old epoch, who had been enemies, had disappeared.
So, now we are in an interesting process, a new open dialogue not seen since the 1920s, a new dialogue still with reticence, still with a certain distance, and certain skepticism. But a new open dialogue between Marxist intellectuals who critique the primitive Marxism of the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s and who approach Indianism not with the intention to control it but to offer tools of analysis, tools of interpretation, to offer tools of comprehension of indigenous social movement. I think we’re in a new historic effort after almost 100 years, of a much more fruitful dialogue between the two grand readings of the transformation of Bolivia, that is Indianism and Marxism.

Posted by: Bob M. | Nov 25 2006 3:21 utc | 23

Citizen K:
I once thought you were an individual with great knoweldge and appreciation of history. I see you have now allied yourself with one Slothrop, a renegade Marxist with few if any historical credentials. This is a Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact that disorients me greatly.
Between now and tomorrow evening, I would appreciate it if you would present your authoritas to support your thesis that the Aztecs, Mayans, and Incas were vicious killing swine.
I shall study them and respond, if I am able.
I retire to my bed now, with a severe case of vapours.

Posted by: Ms. M. | Nov 25 2006 3:21 utc | 24

i like your bad attitude, bob.
i’m all for learning more about indigenism, for sure. i’m pretty certain my description of it is not far off the mark, per churchill.
i’ll be the 1st one to insist my knowledge of ecology/indian movement/feminism is mediocre compared to some here. but i learn all the time.
as for bookchin…i did an adequate job explaining why his dismissal of marx is inadequate.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 25 2006 3:40 utc | 25

groucho
have another whiskey

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 25 2006 3:41 utc | 26

I think it’s a mistake to lump all of the various nations of indigenous americans into one group, just as it would be a mistake to say that Spain had the same history as France, for instance, even tho they share the label “european.”
yes, it appears that the aztecs got nasty. The five nations (before they were six) created the “Great Law of Peace” because of so many years of warfare and they decided they wanted this to stop.
I think that one of the main differences between western and some native american nations’ beliefs is the difference in religious ideas in relation to the earth. (whatever the ecological footprint of large populations in the Americas before Europeans settled here.)
Manifest destiny derives from the notion that god told adam the earth was his to name and subdue, etc. For many of the american nations, their religion includes the earth as a part of the deities, rather than the servant of humans. Their religious stories involve the animals they killed to survive, women as well as men who could shape shift —
but if you are considering people who lived on the american continent long before the Romans ruled, you cannot lump their beliefs or acts together.
however, holding indigenous tradition up as a model that opposes the situation that has led to the suffering of so many over the years is a way to empower a people…a form of nationalism…or “tribalism” or alternate identity, and so it make sense this would be presented in edenic terms…not that it’s true, but that it serves a useful purpose for ppl who have been treated like dogs.
(and bob and ms. m. will you please stop baiting slothrop?)

Posted by: fauxreal | Nov 25 2006 4:02 utc | 27

uncle
your a pretty good archeologist.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 25 2006 4:07 utc | 28

you’re

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 25 2006 4:08 utc | 29

it stuns me when i consider how generations of indigenes peoples left the planet for us honoring the land and not the (ego)footprint apon it.
ahh!

Posted by: annie | Nov 25 2006 4:09 utc | 30

Oh, look, another “noble savage” thread. Yep, those native Americans were sure a bunch of innocent victims. It’s not like their arrival on the continent was the cause of a major extinction event or something — oh, wait, it was. (Say hello to a nice shiny new desert, North America!) Well, at least they didn’t fight wars amongst each other. Oh, wait, they did. Slavery? Some of them did that, too.

Fast forward to modern times, and you’ll find some of them engaged in shady practices. Remember, the Abramoff funding scandal was because he wasn’t actually using the money he took from the Choctaw the way he said he would. They were quite happy with the idea of funding Grover Norquist, for example, and buying a bunch of Republicans. Right now, there’s a casino-owning tribe in Texas which has been using every underhanded trick in the book to screw over the other casino-owning tribes in the area so they can get all the business.

I’m not defending the way that Native Americans were deliberately murdered, cheated, and mistreated — it’s indefensible — but let’s not make the mistake of assuming that “victim = moral superior”. We already did that once, in the 20th century, with another group of people who were victimized by European culture, and look how that turned out. (I’m looking at you, Ms. M; your post at number 24 sounds reminiscent of the constant cry of “anti-semite” against anyone who criticizes the government of Israel.)

Posted by: The Truth Gets Vicious When You Corner It | Nov 25 2006 5:00 utc | 31

Just arguing for historical accuracy,TTGVWYCI, re indigines.
Any nut fruitcake can make anything he wants of it.

Posted by: Ms. M. | Nov 25 2006 5:19 utc | 32

Oh, look, another “noble savage” thread. … I’m not defending the way that Native Americans were deliberately murdered, cheated, and mistreated — it’s indefensible — but let’s not make the mistake of assuming that “victim = moral superior”
classic strawman argument. or else i just missed any earlier romantic reference to the ideal noble savage. btw, lots of great disbunking of the “pleistocene overkill” speculation out there.
citizen k- you are refering to civilizations, which i would put into an entirely different category altogether. civilization has never been a sustainable concept anywhere. not really to be compared w/ an indegenist worldview. the aztecs ran a theocracy, to which many residents welcomed the liberating spaniards w/ flowers & delectables (or something like that).

Posted by: b real | Nov 25 2006 6:51 utc | 33

slothrop- did you see the self-replicating machine elves?
here’s a related churchill essay you may find of interest
False Promises: An Indigenist Examination of Marxist Theory and Practice
bob m- thanks for the linera interview. thursday’s democracynow featured part of a speech by felix villca, amyra indian & senior advisor to the bolivian foreign ministry, and he said essentially the same thing – that 80% of the population of bolivia are indians & they’ve discarded the imported notions of class struggle etc in lieu of their own understandings of what needs to be done.

Posted by: b real | Nov 25 2006 7:11 utc | 34

“aymara”

Posted by: b real | Nov 25 2006 7:13 utc | 35

Clearly, Man created God according to his needs rather than visa-versa — how else could one account for the diversity of images of God among Mankind?
The Judeo-Christian created God is a complex God, having several different facets, each of whose attributes answer different political, societal, and individual needs.
This God commanded Adam to replenish the earth and subdue the animals. Our society has chosen to ignore the first injuncture and over-emhasize the second. From a simple textual comprehension perspective, this is an obvious subversion of the original intent of the passage, regardless of whether one believes in the Bible or not.
I would argue that Manifest Destiny has nothing to do with the Bible, but with our compartmentalized relationship with Nature. In any event, if MD did have anything to do with the Bible, it would stem from a willful misreading of it.
Regardless of how warlike and violent we believe indigenous people were, there is no denying that their violence was limited to one-on-one combat, in which each perpetrator of violence was not insulated from his actions, but faced the dangers, implications, and ramifications, head on. It was only one thousand years ago, with the invention of gunpowder, that mankind was able to kill consistently from a substantial distance. Then, it was only 500 years ago, with the discovery of ballistics, that that power was significantly expanded to include greater anonymity. But it is only in the last fifty or so years that Mankind has created the ability and power to end all life on earth as we know it: This is an evil far, far, infinitely far, greater than the sum total of all indigenous, or pre-industrial, violence combined. It, and by extension, we, are truly evil. No amount of caviling about the crimes of the indigenous will cover this up.
As far as baiting slothrop: When someone responds to a simple link with the coment “your blog sucks,” I reserve the right to respond any way I see fit. Past threads on this blog have demonstrated beyond any argument that slothrop is mean-spirited and resorts to ad hominem attacks when challenged to support his position. This is a blog and I reserve the right to treat others the way that they treat me. If you, or b, doesn’t like it they can ban me — or slothrop — for that matter, or delete our posts. But if I take the time and effort to post a thoughtful essay I demand to be treated with respect — not agreed with, but when one disagrees, it should be restricted to refuting the agument made on its merits, not ad hominems, and petty (bourgeois) invective from a pinhead.

Posted by: Bob M. | Nov 25 2006 7:15 utc | 36

good primer on the lakota worldview from the late, great vine deloria, jr.
if you think about it, you will see that it is true

Posted by: b real | Nov 25 2006 7:31 utc | 37

but let’s not make the mistake of assuming that “victim = moral superior”.
fine.
but lets not make the mistake of assuming they are morally inferior either.
we (all humans) should not wait till the moment when different cultures/belief-systems interact to resolve our postures on moral superiority/inferiority.

Posted by: jony_b_cool | Nov 25 2006 7:41 utc | 38

the real danger in moral-superiority lies in how it can potentially be used to manipulate people into harming others.

Posted by: jony_b_cool | Nov 25 2006 8:12 utc | 39

Ah, how nice it must be to see things in black and white. I cautioned against viewing victims as moral superiors, therefore — according to the black and white jony_b_cool, I must think they’re moral inferiors and be a scurrilous evil person. Good grief. My whole point is that the natives are human beings just like everyone else. I gave examples of bad behavior on their part precisely because none were forthcoming from other sources. It would be as stupid to claim they were all ignorant savages as to make the claim — which so many of us on this board seem to want to make — that they were all enlightened innocents. It’s a related argument, as I said, to the idea that everyone either supports Israel 100% of the time or else can recite The Protocols of the Elders of Zion from memory.

Posted by: The Truth Gets Vicious When You Corner It | Nov 25 2006 9:39 utc | 40

Ms. M: There were people in the Americas for thousands of years before the Europeans showed up. They did not create a single “indigenous” society, but created many different societies. Some were warrier caste/priest/peasant societies of a type familiar world wide. In technical terms, those types of societies suck eggs. Some were quite unusual. The 6 nations were remarkably egalitarian. In fact, the indigenous people of the northeast USA seem to have had a lifestyle so attractive that the colonial authorities worried about defection. The most Amazonian indians seem to have build up complex societies that didn’t create any monuments at all. (The best line on pyramids of any type is Thoreau’s something like – “the wonder of the pyramids is that so many men could be so degraded as to create a monument for a pompous popinjay they would have been better of drowning in the nile”)
There is a great book by Charles Mann called “1491” about the complexities of indigenous civilization in the Americas.
B real: Aztec, Inca, Maya were indigenous. Apache who liked to dispose of captives by hanging them upside down over low fires were indigenous too. I agree with Fauxreal – too much generalization is dangerous. And there was much to admire in Apache – it’s just that there don’t seem to have been any edenic human cultures, sadly enough.
TGVWYCI – unfortunately, racism and anti-semitism are so prevalent in Euro/American societies that discussions of Israeli atrocities or the africa american family or social structures of the banlieu or the indigenous Americans can never be free of some taint. None of us are impartial observers, we are immersed in our social contexts. As a case in point, look at that poor fool Gaardner from Norway who tried to write an enlightened humanistic cri-de-couer about Israelis machine gunning civilians and ended up puking out traditional Lutheran stories about the christ-killing stone-hearted criminal “chosen people” who forfeit the good will of those who have found Christ’s love. The myths of the noble-savage/dirty-indian are in our heads, like it or not.

Posted by: citizen k | Nov 25 2006 14:32 utc | 41

I must think they’re moral inferiors and be a scurrilous evil person. Good grief.
TTGVWYCI,
the thought never crossed my mind.
overall, the treatment of native-American does not suggest that they are (or have ever been) generally perceived as morally superior. More the opposite.
as for slavery by native-Americans, thats new to me. Hence I suspect it was relatively obscure. Not like 20 million peeps brought from another continent into generational chattel enslavement.
as for being war-like, I thought the initial settlers were received & treated well by the natives. And most native-Americans today consider the myth of the war-like Indian to be a cruel racist stereotype.
most people I know who have reflected on this issue do not know enuf about native-American culture to determine if features of it are (or were) morally superior. And it really does not matter to them. Whats important is how we allowed our moral superiority to justify what we did to them.

Posted by: jony_b_cool | Nov 25 2006 15:06 utc | 42

If you want a nuanced and scholarly view of the indigenous peoples watch this.

Posted by: citizen k | Nov 25 2006 16:17 utc | 43

yeah. the mechanical elves. and the black spheres. everything goes in, but nothing comes out.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 25 2006 17:36 utc | 44

my last jump into this fire, but bob m. if you look at post #4, you do bait with the sentence about “our lord and savior” — which, I realize, is part of a long, long feud…which I was hoping would have a moment of ceasefire. but if you and slothrop want to go all hatfield and mccoy on each other…so be it.
as far as “banning” I have nothing to do with anything of the sort — I just comment to express my own wishes or frustrations and on and on. I also don’t see “banning” as part of b’s biz as usual, tho I was told that when I wasn’t here not too long ago, someone was banned. I missed that one.
and as far as the way in which god’s admonition to adam reads…well, even today Falwell, et al use this same fable as an excuse to support disgusting politicians who are engaged in willful murder by their failure to address important ecological issues…or, like Inhofe, they are so throughly stupid AND corrupt you wonder how they remember to tie their shoes in the morning. but, as recent events have shown (the resignation of a leader who thought “good christians” should care about more than their panty-sniffing punishment demands for people who have sex without their approval) the “religious” right in this country could give a shit about actual human suffering. So, yes, I agree that man, and specifically man, created god in his own image in monothesistic religion, especially.
Some consider Jaweh an inferior god because he is so jealous and so hateful toward others. And this god spawned three religions that, at this time, threaten the entire world. so, yeah, what we face now is unprecedented. At least Zeus could only compel people to burn cities…some small consolation if you were in that city…
and related to beliefs of indigenous ppl — not literally true, but true in a metaphorical sense that resonates for me — the hopi (and other first nations) say that the “red” ppl were designated the people of the earth…their charge was and is to care for the earth and their destiny was bound to the fate of the earth. Thus, their task is to remember how to care for the earth and survive without all the trappings of the modernized world. on the other hand, they say “white” ppl are the people of fire, and their destiny has been bound up in the use of fire…firearms, electricity, steam engines, jet propulsion, nuclear weapons… and the hopi say that ppl are not automatons who have no influence over their destinies…that white ppl have to learn to use their power for good and peace, not war…and if they don’t, they will destroy themselves.
sometimes stories and fables can tell a truth we can’t hear with facts.
just a story, but

Posted by: fauxreal | Nov 25 2006 17:51 utc | 45

There is the Leslie Silko story about a story where the witches are competing to see who can do the most evil deed. Each one steps forward with some tale of horror. One hangs back and the others laugh at her/him. Finally this witch comes forward and tells a story about how the white people will come, kill all the animals and trees, poison the water and air, destroy all the peoples, cover the ground with rocks … . The others say, ok, ok, you win, that’s more terrible than anything, take the story back, but it’s too late.

Posted by: citizen k | Nov 25 2006 18:20 utc | 46

Silko’s version (which involved the introduction of uranium to create the aspects you note) would seem to be inspired by the hopi observation that uranium (the white’s source of power that upsets the balance of the world, just as the witch’s story does, by calling the white person into existence)…anyway, uranium is mined from sacred hopi lands, as I’ve noted before…the equivalent of digging up the buried and setting them on fire in front of family members. Peabody coal mines are also on hopi land. the hopi consider coal extration a rape of their land and tradition, and, as I’ve also noted here before, this coal is used to light Lost Vegas..that exemplar of white ppls’ stupidity.
this is the pov of hopi traditionals, not those who have assimilated, btw.
I prefer the traditional story that noted the white ppl would come to turtle island dressed as turtles (the conquistadors) — if the whites had extended their hands as brothers, life would have taken one path. If not, then life would have taken another path. The trade of goods, in other words, signified the white ppl did not come as brothers. They offered goods instead of brotherhood.
of course, I speak in past tense, but that works from the assumption of a linear world…this same world could be coming into existence or not in our past, present and future. As I said before, I prefer the traditional stories that are “if, then” not “it is now thus” — the Silko story could be pandora’s box, in that the ills of the world cannot be put to rights, so the world is permanently out of balance, to also use a phrase from the hopi…life out of balance… koyaanisqatsi. how balance is restored is the story of humans.
I often wonder about the stories told here that are unrelentingly about the evil in this world, without any balance found in the joy of existence for its sake, in spite of powers that be… which is also why I find Ghandi’s response to power more compelling and a stronger story than an eye for an eye that we see in the middle east among all parties.

Posted by: fauxreal | Nov 25 2006 19:23 utc | 47

Fauxreal: I get the feeling that horror is a validation for some here. Without that bitter anger, that feeling of betrayal, life would lack meaning?

Posted by: citizen k | Nov 25 2006 22:07 utc | 48

Fauxreal: I get the feeling that horror is a validation for some here. Without that bitter anger, that feeling of betrayal, life would lack meaning?

Posted by: citizen k | Nov 25 2006 22:08 utc | 49

citizen k and fauxreal, i’ve suspected the same for a long time. could be why my links to the inspirational thinkers at bigpicture.tv never elicit responses – these are people who not only have hope for the future but are actively making an effort to shape it in responsible, environmentally holistic ways.

Posted by: conchita | Nov 26 2006 1:35 utc | 50

mmm, holistic
People and their BS…

Posted by: gmac | Nov 26 2006 12:47 utc | 51

CitizenK: “I get the feeling that horror is a validation for some here. Without that bitter anger, that feeling of betrayal, life would lack meaning?”
For me, part of the validation from MoA is not the horror of certain aspects of daily life and history, but the knowledge that there are others out there who are also outraged about it – – knowing I’m not alone.
Last week my car died sitting at a traffic light in rush hour traffic on my way to work. While I sat futilely trying to restart it with annoyed drivers dodging me and giving me dirty looks for my thoughtlessness at inconveniencing them, a beat-up old white van pulled around me and stopped in front of me. Out jumped three young hispanic fellows – probably construction workers or landscapers from their dress. They ran over with one gesturing to ask “did I want them to push my car over?” to which I gratefully nodded “yes”. In less than 10 seconds they had me moved into a turn lane and out of the main flow of traffice, then jumped back in the van and took off before I could react and thank them, offer them money, or express my gratitude in any way.
I could afford to have the car towed and get it fixed, but I am guessing that if something similar befell them, they might not have the savings available to get their vehicle fixed immediately, potentially imperiling their livelihoods. Yet they stopped to help a stranger.
I’ve told this anecdote twice in the last few days at shared meals with relatively progressive friends, and it made me sad that the initial reaction when I said “three young hispanic guys jumped out of the van…” was fear and concern that the end of the story was going to be bad. One person even interrupted to say, “did you immediately lock your doors?”. There are lots of hispanic immigrants in my area, both legal and illegal, and there is a lot of prejudice against them.
Not sure if my point is coming across with this post, but even living in a metropolitan area with a lot of progressive people, I sometimes feel there aren’t many who are taking the time to keep abreast of what the government is up to, or what is going on in the world, and then feel outrage, horror,and sorrow, determined to resist and to live and work for something positive.

Posted by: Maxcrat | Nov 26 2006 16:12 utc | 52

I hear you maxcrat.

Posted by: beq | Nov 26 2006 16:45 utc | 53

I dunno if feeling angry is a substitute for doing something.

Posted by: citizen k | Nov 26 2006 16:53 utc | 54

ck
for fuck’s sake
the horror is there. constant. real. concrete
what would you like us to do – not mention it
make out its all going swell & that we all find our jouissance when yet another massacre takes place
you & i we have our differences but i find this comment the dumbest you have ever made
i presume, that you like the rest of this community lives outside the screen of a computer, i presume activism of all sorts on all of our parts – even yours
but to think someone could come here to seek validation in all this fucking horror – they would be better served by foxnews
in the crepescule of my life i search for legends i search for love

Posted by: r’giap | Nov 26 2006 18:28 utc | 55

& in any case the horro speaks for itself & calls itself by its real name
World Bank chief slams Iraq
Strasbourg
November 15, 2006 – 9:18AM
Iraq needs advice rather than money from international donors to rebuild its institutions, Paul Wolfowitz, president of the World Bank, said today.
Wolfowitz, who plans to open a permanent office in Iraq to coordinate donor assistance, said the country was not making the best use of the money it already had.
“I am not saying they don’t need money, but they have a lot of money on their own and it’s not managed right, and they know that,” Wolfowitz said.
“What they need is help in constructing better institutions, public financial management, and advice how to better manage the petroleum sector. Help, I believe, in how to manage social safety nets. This is policy advice and not money,” Wolfowitz told the European Parliament’s development committee.
He did not know what steps the United States would take in Iraq after the Republicans lost Congress in last week’s elections, partly due to voter unease over Iraq policy.
“I don’t know how US policy in the Middle East will change. I know that they are not going to come and ask me for my opinion,” Wolfowitz said.
“I am not sufficiently well informed on political and security issues to give sensible advice,” Wolfowitz said.
Wolfowitz is a former deputy US defence chief to Donald Rumsfeld, and a key advocate of the Iraq war. Rumsfeld resigned as Defence Secretary after the Republicans’ electoral defeat.
Democrats, who will control Congress starting in January, have promised to conduct vigorous reviews of US policy on Iraq, including post-war reconstruction and stabilisation.
Wolfowitz, who was appointed president of the World Bank last year, could be called to testify.
Reuters

Posted by: r’giap | Nov 26 2006 18:40 utc | 56

morons unbelievable fucking morons

Posted by: r’giap | Nov 26 2006 18:55 utc | 57

Better look back to b-reals Vine Deloria link, from above.

The wise person will realize his or her own limitations and act with some degree of humility until he or she has sufficient knowledge to act with confidence. Every bit of information must be related to the general framework of moral interpretation since it is personal to them and their community. No body of knowledge exists for its own sake outside the moral framework of understanding. We are, in the truest sense possible, creators or co-creators with the higher powers, and what we do has immediate importance for the rest of the universe.

Posted by: anna missed | Nov 26 2006 21:42 utc | 58

RG: I’m inspired by that moron Richard Cohen’s recent column in which he admits to having believed the war in Iraq would be “therapeutic”. The culture is polluted with valuing anger. The horror is there, for sure, but it is easy to just rage and let the rage become the end in itself.

Posted by: citizen k | Nov 27 2006 0:31 utc | 59

the horror is always here. Sometimes its served with nice gentrified idioms, other times less so.

Posted by: jony_b_cool | Nov 27 2006 1:05 utc | 60

back in the days as a kid, I always wondered why we were constantly warned about powerful currents, buried in the water, but not as much was said about the danger from sharks. It just did’nt sound right at the time.
and looking back, I ca’nt recall hardly anyone ever being mauled by a shark. But the currents were a constant & sometimes fatal danger.
and as horrific as the sharks of today may appear, the currents in the water, sweeping in from the past, are still the real danger.

Posted by: jony_b_cool | Nov 27 2006 2:02 utc | 61