Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
September 10, 2006
WB: Limited Hangout

Billmon:

[T]he newfound feistiness of the Democratic minority, coupled with the revolt of the GOP moderates, offers at least a faint hope that future Phase II reports (whenever they appear) will amount to something more than just fresh coats of whitewash on the biggest political scandal (and foreign policy fiasco) since the Vietnam War.

Of course, now that the policy agenda has moved on to an even bigger prospective fiasco — war with Iran — that also may not mean much. Still, it’s at least some minor comfort (if only for history’s sake) to know the Cheney administration’s next plan to wage aggressive war might be investigated a bit more aggressively …

Limited Hangout

Comments

Thank you Billmon, for reading 15 megabytes of this crap so that I don’t have to.
You distill the essence, the flavor and fragrance, of these and I am ready to be heartened to any small extent by any closely read conclusion derived from these obfuscations.
We still need a real investigation, of course. A series of real investigations.

Posted by: John Francis Lee | Sep 10 2006 9:33 utc | 1

Looks like Team B got to play one more round for long past memories of the “ol’ gipper”, and Cheney watched and learned alot from HW, in particular, that being the man behind the man is where the real power really is, at least for big jobs, i.e., long enough to get the foot in the Iraqi door. They say the best way for criminals to learn how to be even better criminals is in the big house or the Whitehouse…
The two PDFs weigh in at almost 375 pages. I started to read it, but they were so fucking dry with legalese speak and obfuscation that I gave up, and just merely skimmed them half heartedly, because A) Bush, Cheney, Rove, and company are gonna get to walk, e.g., everything hidden behind National Security B) as we have disscussed here at moon before, their main objective was to just get us in there; what ever opportunities after that will be up to others, I mean fuck, Rumsfeld forbade post-war planning, general maintains. The bases may or may not continue, what do they care, they got theirs and will be incuring significant dividends and post Per Diem’s allowances, both foreign (read: off shore banking) and domestic from now until they pass it on…
It would be interesting to see what profit, perks –monitarily and otherwise*— Hatch, Roberts, Bond, Lott and Chambliss gained from all this cheerleading. Now and in the future. Playing the quasi-nepotism roulette game of inside/outside direct /indirect good cop/bad cop power games of the beltway.
*Note: the reason I highlighted the word ‘otherwise’ above is because I get so irritated whenever people say, “follow the money”, because It’s not [just]”follow the money” [anymore] but, rather “follow the money and the status of the job or social position” and political maneuvering; the way career politicians set up scenarios to cash in at a later date, be it direct or indirect by workin’ the system with insider knowledge.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Sep 10 2006 10:45 utc | 2

Don’t mind me, billmon’s above is the reason I drink so munh…
here’s a limited hang out for ya…Saddam & Osama

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Sep 10 2006 11:09 utc | 3

I liked the commercial for ROCKS.

Posted by: gmac | Sep 10 2006 13:59 utc | 4

I think it about time to recognize that people like Douglas “Stupidest Fucking Guy In The Universe” Feith, and Vice President Dick Him Before He Dicks You Cheney are de facto fifth columnists and fellow travelers for al-Qaeda and their caliphatista wanna-bes. What else are we to make of the exhuberant willingness of neocons and the Vice President to accept INC disinformation, after being warned the INC had been penetrated by the agents of Iraq and of Iran, and of their uncanny ability to take actions that contribute to the achievement of al-Qaeda, et. al., goals?
It is as if Democrats, during the height of the Cold War, had been as gung-ho and as pro-active for unilateral disarmament and withdrawal from Europe, as the assholes in the Vice President’s office and War Department are for doing almost all the things they have done to contribute to al-Qaeda’s continuing success.
The criminality of the people like Cheney, Feith and their minions and masters goes way beyond criminal negligence. These people are actively seeking to weaken the United States. We need to recognize this and to make it clear to the public that this is what is going on.

Posted by: Doran Williams | Sep 10 2006 14:14 utc | 5

You can bet your ass this aint no limited hang out:
Death squads and and Star Chambers and soviet style druggings in America oh, my…

How far can the Bush administration go? Steven Bradbury of the Justice Department recently suggested before a congressional committee that the president might have the power to order the killing of terrorist suspects inside the United States.
Government assassination squads? In America?

From the comments section:

SECTION 109 allows secret star chamber courts to issue contempt charges against any individual or corporation who refuses to incriminate themselves or others. This sections annihilate the last vestiges of the Fifth Amendment.

In 2005, Bush quietly created the National Clandestine Service, which authorizes the CIA to operate within the United States — despite past abuses such as Operation Chaos — and reinstituted domestic spying by the military through the Counter Intelligence Field Activity (CIFA), in violation of the Posse Comitatus Act. He also created the National Security Service, putting elements of the FBI under his direct control, the closest we have had to a secret police agency in our 200-year history.

Also from the comments

another scary item just yesterday — Symbol Susan: “Though this be madness…” — regarding a case where the DOJ tried to get approval to forcibly medicate an incompetent woman they’d picked up for “acting like” a spy.

Weep, weep for your country then, find your firearms!

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Sep 10 2006 14:33 utc | 6

@Doran (#5 above)
Yes. They are actively working against the interests of the United States and its people… and making a killing (work out for yourself if the pun is intended) in the process on the contracting end. Of course they have seen the signs and portents about an unsustainable US economy (right wingers are no strangers to apocalyptic ideas), and they are absolutely selling their own countrymen down the river to stay on top (and ensure their vile progeny stay on top tomorrow) as long as they are able. An unaccounted for $US2 trillion will get your foot in any door, even if your nation has become a belly-up banana republic.
Don’t say any of this out loud, though. Most people can’t grapple with the prospect that their leaders are evil enough to orchestrate a 9/11, despite the fact that they had all the paperwork in place for just such an occasion. The notion that Cheney, Feith, Wolfowitz, Rice, et al might place other loyalties higher the Stars and Bars… and that they would not only endanger the welfare of the governed, but actually sleep well that night… just might make any-old-asshole-in-the-street’s head implode.

Posted by: Monolycus | Sep 10 2006 14:45 utc | 7

It just keeps getting better…

By this time you all heard that “Saddam ‘had no link to al-Qaeda” report, but there are two events happened at the same time, which I couldn’t find on the western media….

There was a conference in Ammman Jordan, among 295 Iraqi Sunni tribal leaders none of them is a member of Al-Qaida or “Ansar Al-Islam”, preparing for the “reconciliation conference”, and the conference came with this statement:
We demand the release of Saddam Hussein and to include Baathists in the reconciliation conference as a condition for the achievement of security and stability, not because we are loyalists, but to close this file.

… hahaha… oh it gets even better, read on…hahahaha….

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Sep 10 2006 15:38 utc | 8

Ok, i’m getting off then puter now, before I go completely mad..
Here’s the link…
The media failed to tell you these events

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Sep 10 2006 15:41 utc | 9

I lied…
Cheney
this morning on press the meat, much of his rhetoric was about how much “progress” has been made in the war on terror in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere.
Afganistan governor assassinated
Guess he was in the green room or on the can when this memo came in…

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Sep 10 2006 16:25 utc | 10

Apologies if you all at the Moon have already discussed this, but when Billmon summarized thusly:
“Pre-war claims that Al Qaeda operatives received chemwar and biowar training in Iraq (a staple of many a hysterical Dick Cheney and Condi Rice speech) were pure smoke — blown by a captured low-level Al Qaeda operative desperate to avoid being tortured.”
I was suddenly struck dumb with the realization that perhaps the torture laws are not designed to extract truly useful, time-sensitive information that may be correct, but instead are designed to extract truly useless, timeless information that most certainly is not correct (and would never never have been uttered by anyone who was in their right mind during a righteous interrogation).
Then again, perhaps I should change my name to John Obvious….

Posted by: RossK | Sep 10 2006 18:24 utc | 11

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14767199/
Cheney’s remarks are the functional equivalent of a big middle finger and a “fuck you” to the Constitution and to laws prohibiting aggressive war making and war crimes. Cheney exhibits the total lack of remorse and willingness to admit guilt that is typical of sociopaths and common criminals. If this guy is ever prosecuted for his crimes, he will be expected to admit guilt and to express some remorse for his actions, in just the same way that a child abuser (remember the Iraqi kids who were killed and maimed) is expected to do. If he does, he may get a break on his sentence. It would be so great to see Cheney put to this test: Will he break? Or will he hang tough and do hard time?
Compare Cheney’s remarks to those yesterday of Sen. Rockefeller of West Virginia, that the United States would be better off with Saddam still in power, without the loss of US military lives, without the degradation of the Army, without all those really bad things that have happened since Cheney and his gang took us to war. I really have to agree with the remarks a person close and dear to me sometimes makes about violent criminals: Drive’em out into the desert, shoot’em in the stomach and push’em out of the car. That such could be done to Cheney et al is a fantasy, I admit, but it sustains me at times.

Posted by: Doran Williams | Sep 10 2006 19:05 utc | 12

perhaps the torture laws are not designed to extract truly useful, time-sensitive information that may be correct, but instead are designed to extract truly useless, timeless information that most certainly is not correct
did you train at a camp in iraq?
no
did you train in a camp in iraq and i will kill your family if you say no?
yes
where was it? who did you train with? for how long?
ross k, it just occurred to you??? there is something very warm and fuzzy about that. you must be a very trusting person.did you read the rolling stone article about how rendon extracted false info out of the AQ’s.

Posted by: annie | Sep 10 2006 19:20 utc | 13

perhaps the torture laws are not designed to extract truly useful, time-sensitive information that may be correct, but instead are designed to extract truly useless, timeless information that most certainly is not correct
did you train at a camp in iraq?
no
did you train in a camp in iraq and i will kill your family if you say no?
yes
where was it? who did you train with? for how long?
ross k, it just occurred to you??? there is something very warm and fuzzy about that. you must be a very trusting person.did you read the rolling stone article about how rendon extracted false info out of the AQ’s.

Posted by: annie | Sep 10 2006 19:22 utc | 14

First, to Billmon:
It’s Mencken, baby! “No one ever went broke from underestimating the intelligence of the great mass of the plain people.” Barnum was a piker in comparison.
And, if torture works so great, how come we don’t use it for everything? Sure would cut down on those difficult embezzlement and fraud trials. That HealthSouth exec who beat his wrap would have given it all up for a little waterboard action.
Seriously: The victims of Oklahoma City got justice. So did Ted Kazcynski’s victims. So did Ted Bundy’s and Polly Kaas’s. But, the accused got trials. Because, we want questions answered, we want the truth. When an innocent person is convicted, the guilty one goes free.

Posted by: Anonymous | Sep 11 2006 1:12 utc | 15

That last post was mine.

Posted by: Brian C.B. | Sep 11 2006 1:13 utc | 16

@ RossK,
Indeed.

Posted by: Jassalasca Jape | Sep 11 2006 1:42 utc | 17

Thanks all…..
The thing is, I was right here (or there, or wherever the heckfire it was) when the Stefanowicz thing was exposed by bernhard and billmon.
But I always held out some hope that there were folks who actually believed/were bamboozled by the Dershowitz Dogma.
The realization that they don’t is what really hit home today.
.

Posted by: RossK | Sep 11 2006 2:18 utc | 18

help, i am scaring myself, i just realized that what this country really, really needs is a well-nailed good torture play. something along annie’s lines above.
It would be our day’s Death of a Salesman. Wait, doesn’t billmon do scripts sometimes…

Posted by: citizen | Sep 11 2006 2:40 utc | 19

oddly, my verification code above was “KGBv.64”
now, that’s cryptic.

Posted by: citizen | Sep 11 2006 2:44 utc | 20

JJ,
that was excellent.
But, I had something a little more gradually dawning in mind.

Posted by: citizen | Sep 11 2006 2:47 utc | 21

I’m game. I know some interrogators.
Needs to be finished and UTubed by 10/15, so we can qualify for the next Cannes.
Cheapest place to film today is in Romania.
Good sunsets, risings,special effects and stunt people too.
Let’s Rack!

Posted by: Mengele | Sep 11 2006 3:41 utc | 22

@RossK (#11)
Obtaining “actionable” intelligence is part of it, of course… but I believe that’s the smaller part. If the operatives extracting these “confessions” have to jump through so many hoops to get the answers they want, then even they must know how worthless it is. Easier by far to simply make the damned stuff up yourself when you file your report up the chain of command, and I’m sure that plenty of that has gone on as well.
I said once before, and I still believe this, that the primary purpose of state-sponsored torture, extraordinary renditions, et cetera is to send a message to one’s political enemies. Specifically, one’s domestic enemies (although if foreigners want to walk away with the impression that they could be next, so much the better). Several historians have observed that the original purpose of the concentration camps constructed by Germany’s third Reich had nothing whatsoever to do with ethnic cleansing. When they were first constructed, they housed political prisoners… and overt domestic resistance to the rising National Socialist German Worker’s Party fell drastically away as news and rumours of these new camps began to spread. I wrote a rant about this once.
It’s no accident that we get the news that we do, and if it appears that Cheney et al. are thumbing their noses at the US Constitution and us as well, it’s because they are.

Posted by: Monolycus | Sep 11 2006 3:53 utc | 23

Solzhenitsyn breaks last taboo of the revolution
Nobel laureate under fire for new book on the role of Jews in Soviet-era repression
“Blow the dust off the clock. Your watches are behind the times. Throw open the heavy curtains which are so dear to you — you do not even suspect that the day has already dawned outside.”~Alexander Solzhenitsyn

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Sep 11 2006 4:23 utc | 24

CIA still hiding ‘ghost’ captives
The question no one wants to ask, I’ll ask, how do we know that there are not American citizens among them?
As we know there were UK citizens and a few Ozzies I believe…

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Sep 11 2006 4:49 utc | 25

Amazing story there Scam, @24.
Your links are always very informative.

Posted by: Mengele | Sep 11 2006 5:04 utc | 26

Clarity, clarity, anything for a moment of clarity!….
So I suggest the following: let’s stop talking about a “War on Terror,” which doesn’t describe much of anything, and talk instead about a “War on Islam,” which describes a whole lot of everything. If someone prefers to call it a “War on Islamofascism,” I’ll be happy to oblige, so long as we can agree that this isn’t a “War on Buddhofascism,” or “Hindufascism,” or whatever. And let’s acknowledge what’s obvious to everyone: this war only got started in earnest when the Berlin Wall came down and the Cold War suffered the political equivalent of global warming (i.e. it melted down). America, ever in need of an enemy as immense and amorphous as its own military machine, fetched up “Islamofascism” just in time to keep the money flowing in the right (the military) direction….
But what’s the probable lifespan of this war? Is it good for another fifty years of military inflation? If I have any doubts about this, I’ll have to attribute them to that term “Islamofascism,” which is a little wobbly for the role assigned. It really can’t do the job of “Communism,” because, as we all recall, “Communism” was also “Godless,” “atheistical,” and “materialistic,” and that’s something we worshipful Americans could all agree to despise, to kill, and to rejoice in the death thereof. But “Islamofascism”? It’s a Godfearing thing, as mean and clean as anything we Puritans could hope for.
(Or have we become, shall we say, “Godless” in our own turn? Is this thinkable? Is it even possible? If so, it’s a turn of events that could only be called “historical”…. And so your “end of history,” my dear Francis Fukuyama, is really done for; your little theory is finished for good and all, thanks to those path-breaking Americans and their war against believers in a “one true God”–the very same Abrahamic and monotheistic God that we invoked while snuffing out “Godless Communism”….).
But I don’t believe it. I can’t believe we’ll sustain a fifty-years war against a religion, even if we can fool ourselves into calling it a “War on Terror”. No, I’m afraid we’ll have to find a new and more comforting target–one that we’re actually used to. A war against a race, for example, or a language, or a little bit of both: a war against Arabs, say, and against folks who happen to speak Arabic….
Ah yes, the very war that we already have! It’s not a “War on Terror,” or even a “War on Islamofascism”; it’s a “War on Arabia”–a war on “godless Arabia,” perhaps?–and it’s good for trillions of dollars. And if this “Arabia” doesn’t really exist–and in truth it doesn’t really exist–we can always count on the folks at Disney to invent it. Can’t you just see the promo crawl across the screen? “Arabia: the worlds biggest amusement park, where boys with toys can go on a real manhunt….for millions of ‘Osama bin Ladins'”….
That’s enough clarity for the moment. It’s past my bedtime

Posted by: alabama | Sep 11 2006 5:07 utc | 27

And just to clarify bama’s clarity, The New Crusades: Constructing the Muslim Enemy.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Sep 11 2006 5:16 utc | 28

Addendum:
Amazon has em used for 16 shark teeth and some plaque… Well worth the trade imo…

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Sep 11 2006 5:25 utc | 29

@ Monolycus,
A Guardian journalist made a similar point (that the first imperative of a terrorist is to terrorize his nearest neighbours) in a piece that captured my own sense of dread after the first Bush-Rumsfeld-Powell flight-jacketed press conference. Andrew Brown, “Lessons on how to fight terror”, Salon (September 19, 2001).

Posted by: Jassalasca Jape | Sep 11 2006 5:36 utc | 30

@ alabama,
America will fight for oil, without the need for tarted-up dossiers or distasteful self-deception. All that is needed is an event to paint a bullseye on The Party Threatening Our Fuel Supply. The consequences will be beyond frightening. The irritating vagueness of the “Global Struggle Against Violent Extremism” (as GWOT was momentarily relabeled) will only add to the sense of relief and deadly commitment when a more compelling bad guy finally emerges.

Posted by: Jassalasca Jape | Sep 11 2006 5:51 utc | 31

Jassalasca Jape, I’ve never been convinced about the “fight for oil”. I know we’re told that it exists, and that the oil folks really claim, or seem to claim, that they need to control the politics on the ground that’s sitting over the oil. But do they believe it? And why would we actually need to control the politics of those places? Even when “real enemies” are in power there, the market sets the rules for the movement and prices of the commodity itself. Just think of Schultz’s fight with Reagan’s right-wing folks to bring Russia’s gazoduc into Europe in the early eighties. Schultz fought on behalf of the “evil empire” because Europe wanted the gas, and Russia wanted to sell it…. If we pointed to OPEC in the early ’70’s, we would be choosing another bad example, because OPEC’s actions were market-driven: the member-countries were tired of giving away their oil at “prices” pegged to a downwardly spiralling dollar. And when we tried to punish OPEC by blocking its sales, who should show up but Marc Rich–yes, Marc Rich!–to create, almost singlehandedly, a spot-market that rendered our embargo absolutely irrelevant. A third bad example would be Libya. There’s nothing wrong with Libya, because Ghaddafi knows how to keep the oil flowing, and indeed he kept it flowing into Europe when we were so busy waving our flag….
I think our claims to worry about oil are just a permission-slip for military dominance over places that once belonged to the British Empire, and over which we seem to think we have some kind of patrimonial claim.
When Cheney spoke about getting rid of Saddam as a good thing (on today’s tv program), he was careful to say that Saddam would be dangerous because he would be rich with oil costing $70 a barrel, the price of oil today. His wealth would make him dangerous; this is very different from saying that his control of the fields would block our access to his oil at market prices. In fact, Cheney was arguing that Saddam would benefit from the marketplace, just like Halliburton.
No. The deeper pattern is not commercial–not, at least, when the argument for a commercial basis is posed in terms of a threat to “strategic resources”. It’s something else: we need wars, big wars, and we need those wars to be fought in other places. I’d say the dynamic is one of evasion: we “export our violence,” to use an old term from the anti-Vietnam war days, in order to keep the peace at home, and to avoid confronting domestic problems that might, if properly managed, create some inconveniences for the ownership. A well-educated and well-fed population, for example, can become an agent of unrest; take away its food and its schooling, and you’re left with a clueless and impotent lumpenproletariat. The ownership knows how to live with this.

Posted by: alabama | Sep 11 2006 6:27 utc | 32

And thanks for the reading tip, Uncle $cam!

Posted by: alabama | Sep 11 2006 6:34 utc | 33

@ alabama,
It’s a different conversation. Seventy dollars per gallon is nothing.

Posted by: Jassalasca Jape | Sep 11 2006 8:12 utc | 34

Field Manual FM 30-31B

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Sep 11 2006 13:12 utc | 35

alabama,
If you read the Japanese internal documents from the 1930s, the Japanese Navy attacked Pearl Harbor because the Japanese (and Manchurian) Army said it was being strangled for want of oil and steel, both embargoed by the U.S.
and they had markets then too.
But, otherwise, I have no disagreement with you.

Posted by: citizen | Sep 11 2006 13:45 utc | 36

…of course, the 1940 and 1941 documents don’t hurt the case either…

Posted by: citizen | Sep 11 2006 13:46 utc | 37

Monolycus–
Thanks.
.

Posted by: RossK | Sep 12 2006 2:09 utc | 38

It’s something else: we need wars, big wars, and we need those wars to be fought in other places. I’d say the dynamic is one of evasion: we “export our violence,” to use an old term from the anti-Vietnam war days, in order to keep the peace at home
Yes, Alabama–
But keep in mind that life is overdetermined. Many separate causes go into a course of action.
The issues around oil are real: Peak oil production occurred last November, and this is the death knell for the American economy, which has become dependent on cheap credit and cheap gasoline. But this did not come as a surprise: We have known for decades that this day would come, and only morons (of which, indeed, there are many) are truly surprised.
In 1980 Americans chose–in a free election no less!–our current path of war and disaster. The shocks to the economy that came with the political manipulation of oil prices in the 1970s showed what was at stake, but we refused to embark on the soft landing–the changes that would have to be made in our political economy to remove our dependence on oil. Since these would have entailed using less energy, and seeking the utmost in the efficiency of what we were using, it is easy to understand why we made the effortless death choice instead. And so we elected Reagan, who promised to keep reality at bay and our fantasies safe. But death choice it was, and here we are. It is already too late to avoid destruction; the remaining choices are about what form that destruction will be–how deep, and how widespread.
But in that interval between choice and consequences, other factors were contributing their influence. It is probably two decades ago now that the New York times published a survey of the world’s cultures, ranking them by their compatibility with American capitalism. The Islamic world was one of their seven main categories, and the one ranked least compatible. Although the NYT was not calling for war, it is easy to see after the fact that they were weighing in on who should be the next target of American aggression, and why. And so it has come to be.
Thank you for reminding us that from a world perspective, the destruction of the US will be a good thing–that peace is not possible as long as the US exists.
This also speaks to a second point–Why was the US not satisfied to be world hegemon based upon trade and finance (a position it had already achieved)? The problems of resources (oil) certainly were bringing this era to an end, yet the US has willfully ended the era of trade ahead of schedule. The absence of military opportunities in an era of trade may provide some explanation.

Posted by: Gaianne | Sep 12 2006 21:15 utc | 39