thank you very much for this thread and the links. earlier today i witnessed amira hass' piece posted by bea in #30 in action. an israeli friend looked at me in disbelief when i told her about the cluster bombs, she said incredulously - "israel wouldn't do that!" a few weeks ago she emphatically denied that the idf uses human shields. each time we talk she loses more of her willful naievete. i really don't think she has a clue about what is going on in gaza. what's worse, i don't think she wants to know. although a lesbian who decries the second class citizen status and discrimination she faces, she would rather hide behind the fear propaganda than acknowledge how brutally the israeli state operates.

Posted by: conchita | Sep 2 2006 22:34 utc | 101

Petition for U.S. Jewish Solidarity with Muslim and Arab Peoples of the Middle East

We, Jews of Conscience, demand that the U.S. government:

1. Require Israel to stop its brutal siege on Gaza and on Lebanon and call for an unconditional cease fire.
2. Require Israel to stop the expansion of the Israeli Wall of Separation, dismantle the completed sections, and completely withdraw from Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem.
3. Support the United Nations resolutions demanding that Israel uphold international law and support the sanctions against Israel necessary to enforce these resolutions.
4. End military and economic aid to Israel.
5. Support reparations for the Palestinian and Lebanese people for the death and destruction they have suffered and for aid towards the rebuilding of their countries.

They've 972 signatures so far and are just $800 short of what they need to buy a full page in the NYTimes to publish their petition and their signatures.

A bold refutation of Sharon the Leviathan I'd say.

Posted by: John Francis Lee | Sep 3 2006 1:00 utc | 102

Let's see if the NYTimes agrees to run it. I'd be surprised.

Willful ignorance runs deep. Next lesson, we'll cover USAID and the democratic subversion of resource provider nations -- before we get into the real ugly stuff they do (In the case of Congo, choosing the next leader, undermining food sovereignity by introducing GMO cassava, assaying the resource base of the country for TNC development, supporting intellectual rights on drugs, insuring that condoms are NOT given out to prevent the spread of AIDS, etc.). Andrew Natsios, the political hack who runs the outfit, is the guy who knowingly signed off on all the sub-par Bechtel construction which is now killing people here in Massachusetts.

Posted by: Malooga | Sep 3 2006 8:07 utc | 103

By the way, Xymphora has been running an excellent series of posts on Israel's depredations, with an even stronger take than Hass.

Posted by: Malooga | Sep 3 2006 8:14 utc | 104

Malooga: Do you agree with Xymphora who states that the dropping of cluster bombs by Israel on Lebanon is at least as bad as anything the Nazis did?

Those comparisons always strike me as stupid, but it's interesting to me that Xymphora, who seems to be American by the level of interest in the Ramsey case, is obsessed by the moral failings of Israelis using American made and supplied cluster bombs. Another Israeli uniqueness - obviously the US never intended to use cluster bombs, but was forced to invent, manufacture, and ship them due to pressure from the Zionists.

Further down in Xymphora you can find an endorsement of Josten Garder's Norwegian refurbishment of traditional European claims that the kikes missed out on the humanizing influence of the Savior.

The palestinians could, I suppose, have found weaker and less useful allies, but I lack the imagination to figure out how that could have happened.

Posted by: citizen k | Sep 3 2006 10:33 utc | 105

Do you agree with Xymphora who states that the dropping of cluster bombs by Israel on Lebanon is at least as bad as anything the Nazis did? /I> Qualitatively, yes. Israel has, beginning about 50 years before its birth, shown a willingness to ethnically cleanse areas by any means necessary. Quantitatively, of course not -- yet.

Posted by: Malooga | Sep 3 2006 13:44 utc | 106

On Xymphora :

It is fair to say that many if not most Germans really were unaware of the details of what was going on, although it is more difficult to excuse them for being unaware that something evil was happening. On the other hand, Israelis are completely aware of every detail of what the state of Israel is doing in their name, and their complete silence is proof of complicity.

I don't know about the assertion of German ignorance, but I do know that we Americans know or should know that we are the ultimate enablers of Israel's depredations in Palestine, Lebanon and wherever else they prey upon in the Middle East. And we certainly know or should know of our own country's depredations, in Iraq at the very least.

Israeli misuse of cluster bombs was so notorious that the State Department actually delayed sending (or here) the latest American model of cluster bomb to Israel for fear that it would be used against civilians.

It is my understanding that the older cluster bombs, because of poor manufacture or because they were in fact designed that way had a far higher rate of "duds" : bomblets that lie in wait for the children and other innocents rather than explode right away.

There is no justification for the cluster bomb according to my lights. The country that designed and built them is the USA, and my country has used them as ruthlessly as the Israelis.

With Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki the USA has institutionalized war on civilians. Which in no way removes the culpability of the Israelis for what they've done in Lebanon.

We Americans ought to concern ourselves with ending the production of cluster bombs, among other weapons, and with defunding Israel. That's the realm wherein we can effectively act.

Certainly we can point out Israeli terrorism. But "modern" war is terrorism. The challenge is to end the warfare. And of course it can be done.

Posted by: John Francis Lee | Sep 3 2006 14:09 utc | 107

If you want an illustration of where criticism of Israel becomes anti-semitism, these are easy to find and usually are marked by bringing up traditional anti-semitic trademarks like "the chosen people" or the bizzare argument by DIB here that the Israeli governments supposedly unique theory that they could intimidate their enemies was due the secretive and dishonest operation of basic Jewish culture in Europe. In fact,one of the hallmarks of modern anti-semitism is to condemn a routine atrocity as uniquely Zionist and then tie it to some imagined characteristic of Jews or Judaism - usually one that is a staple of traditional anti-semitism. The Josten Gaarder essay that Xymphora cites approvingly is a classic of the genre with its modernization of Luther's famous attack on the Jews: paraphrased - "they rejected the mercy of our Savior for their vengeful old testament so let's torture, burn, and kill." Hess's comments are unsparing and can't be called anti-semitic by any measure. But Xymphora's comments are. Here is an American looking at the use by Israeli client of America of American made and American supplied cluster bombs that America is using great quantities in Iraq at the same time and who reacts to this by stating Israel is worse than the Nazis and The Lobby controls American foreign policy. I can hear that dog whistle.

Posted by: citizen k | Sep 3 2006 17:29 utc | 108

I agree with JFL above.

Further down in Xymphora you can find an endorsement of Josten Garder's Norwegian refurbishment of traditional European claims that the kikes missed out on the humanizing influence of the Savior.

I didn't have time to write anything about Gardner's piece, but, in a nut shell, I found it to be problemmatic, at best.

Particularly troubling was his the admixture of metaphorical and argumentative speech, allowing him to brush off factual criticism by claiming a greater, more general, symbolic meaning, while at the same time freeing himself to throw little zingers every which way without criticism. The essay read like a mixture of oil and water. It was neither fish, nor fowl. But now I am mixing metaphor and argument: see how easy and fun it is. One feels oneself to be positively impervious in this mode.

Also,mixed in with generally sagely opinion were myriad liberal canards, which received little scrutiny.

Particularly objectionable was his assertion that because Germany killed many Jews in WWII, a homeland should be created in Palestine. I fail to see any logic or causal connection between the two events; rather, it seems a non-sequitor, and one not any easier rationalized by its near-universal acceptance. Nor, should the answer have been the establishment of a Jewish homeland on a piece of formerly German soil. The only workable answer has ever been the payment of reparations, trials, and then forgiveness -- followed by again living together in a multi-ethnic society with full rights for all. That is the only solution that will work for the world; not a complete balkanization into ethnically or religiously pure enclaves. The world is too diverse and people are too mixed for anything else to ever be a solution. It might seem attractive short-term, but it always leads to more violence and conflict long-term.

Posted by: Malooga | Sep 3 2006 19:49 utc | 109

GB: The bantustans were located within South Africa. The equivalent of what the Israelis have done would have been the expulsion of the large majority of the black population from South Africa proper.

CK:So you are arguing that Gaza and WestBank are not part of historic Palestine proper? Where the fuck are they?

The great majority of ethnically cleansed Palestinians live outside of Palestine: in Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, and the world over. Even among the officially UN "registered" Palestinian refugees the number living outside historic Palestine is 62%.
The South African equivalent to the Naqba would have been the displacement of the majority of its black population into surrounding countries.
That didn't happen. The Apartheid regime was just that, a system of racial speration (and oppression): it "created" a white South African majority at no point.
(Footnote: the West Bank and Ghaza are part of historic Palestine, but not of Israel, so they are, in fact, foreign too.)

In subsequent posts your motivation has become quite clear: you are defending the State of Israel, and via the "irrefutablity of C" even every bit of its brutality. I have no problem with that per se, but I do have a problem with your underhanded way of doing it. I suggest you do it overtly and rather than under the guise of "not liking bullshit".
Calling "C" "irrefutable" and then "deploring" the resulting violence simply doesn't wash. That's glibness worthy of Amos Oz.
Your method of systematically muddying the water is fine in a court-room, but it renders an honest discussion impossible.
To close: I find it hilarious that the thread has now evolved into that evergreen of politically correct Israel discussions: whether such and such anti-Israeli commentator is anti-semitic or not.

Posted by: Guthman Bey | Sep 3 2006 23:04 utc | 110

"In subsequent posts your motivation has become quite clear: you are defending the State of Israel,"

That's of course total fabrication. Your problem is my refusal to shout loud enough at the 5-minute hate. The weakness of your position means you have to persistently attack motivation.

The immoral actions of the state of Israel in no way justify either the anti-jew hatred of people who find it a convenient excuse for their prejudices or the non-productive fantasy based politics of "pro-palestinian" organizations and cheerleaders.

Posted by: citizen k | Sep 3 2006 23:26 utc | 111

And just for the record, the British Mandate of Palestine included what is now called Jordan. According to the best figures for your argument, 8 of 9.5million Palestinians live in Israel, Jordan, WestBank, and Gaza. That is "over half" in exactly the same way that Israel "does not exist".

Posted by: citizen k | Sep 4 2006 0:08 utc | 112

Inveterately muddying the water...

Posted by: Guthman Bey | Sep 4 2006 0:46 utc | 113

GB I have to admit defeat. Once you exposed the role of the Eurovision Song Contest in the zionist scheme, my effort to "muddy the waters" was shown to be futile. I'll have to go back to the Lions Club HQ for more instructions and Stevie Wonder CDs.

Posted by: citizen k | Sep 4 2006 0:53 utc | 114

Link to the website PalestineRemembered.com, featuring a map of historic Palestine. You are frankly hilarious.

Posted by: Guthman Bey | Sep 4 2006 0:55 utc | 115

citizen_k,

I hear you loud and clear.

But at some point, somethings gonna give in the Israel/Palestine conflict.

We've talked enough about the past. So for whatever its worth, what do you see in the future ? Not trying to pin you but maybe the better question is: Given recent events, what might have changed in this picture ?

Posted by: jony_b_cool | Sep 4 2006 1:03 utc | 116

Here's what the Eurovision Song Contest Zionist Branch has as a
map.

Now that I know of the role of the Eurovision Song Contest in the Zionist Plot, I've been investigating it and discovered that Armenia joined last year. No coincidence, eh? I've also been inspecting Stevie Wonder lyrics and discovered those hidden messages

A boy is born in hard time mississippi
Surrounded by four walls that aint so pretty
His parents give him love and affection
To keep him strong moving in the right direction
Living just enough, just enough for the city...ee ha!
Greater oh Greater Israel

His father works some days for fourteen hours
And you can bet he barely makes a dollar
His mother goes to scrub the floors for many
And youd best believe she hardly gets a penny
Living just enough, just enough for the city... yeah

Posted by: | Sep 4 2006 1:06 utc | 117

JBC: As I noted above, I think it is headed towards catastrophe. The "transfer" advocates are close to total power in Israel and Israeli society has a ugly mix of religious fanaticism and corruption - labor has disintegrated. My prediction: "european" heritage israelis with money will leave, a devout Mizrahi/Black-hat coalition with the more secular right will take power - first under the neo-cons and later on their own. "Transfer" will fill Lebanon and Jordan with new refugees and create total chaos in both countries. The only possible hope I see is if Nasrullah disregards GBs advice and the Israelis disregard Bush's advice, but even then, I think the Palestinians in WB and Gaza are screwed. Of course, I could be wrong. Maybe some magical fairy dust will make a secular state pop up out of the rocks and give everyone a copy of the UN Declaration on Human rights, a mule and 10 hectares of fine orange orchard.

Posted by: citizen k | Sep 4 2006 1:16 utc | 118

Hmm, the dreaded transfer scenario. It certainly looks like thats where we are headed. How much longer the people of Gaza can hold out for under the horrific de-humanizing condition thats been imposed on them, remains to be seen ?

But one thing I look for is how sensitive Israel is to world opinion. Because thats an indication of how far they are willing to go. And I think to a certain extent, they bent to the heat of world opinion in the recent Lebanon war.

As for the "transfer" scenario, theres that old American (I think) saying that goes : "Be careful what you wish for ..."

Still, it looks like somethings brewing.

Posted by: jony_b_cool | Sep 4 2006 7:51 utc | 119

Part of the Sharon/C irrefutable argument is that "world opinion" is ignorable. Note how "world opinion" on Darfour has made absolutely no difference to Sudan and certainly will not stop them from the next step of accelerated genocide in the south - where the oil seems to be. Lacking a effective Palestinian Arab resistance, the problem for the Israeli state is not the world's hypocritical opinion but the opinions of their US employers and the opinions of Israelis - who I believe are starting to leave in economically significant numbers.

Sharon/C points out that the world to a large extent is based on power and tribal identity and poses the question to Jews of which side of the line they want to be in Sbrenica - the side with the brutal army or the side that gets put in the ditch. What is clear is that many decide to not be on either side.

Posted by: citizen k | Sep 4 2006 13:45 utc | 120

Malooga: Check out the comments on Xymphora's informative blog.

Posted by: citizen k | Sep 5 2006 2:48 utc | 121