Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
August 23, 2006
The Bush Boom Party is Over

The U.S. housing bubble is popping. Interest rates are up and will not go down soon. Many people who recently signed Adjustable Rate Mortgages will learn that they can not afford their houses. But by then housing markets will be down and foreclosure will come. More offers will further turn down the market prices. Construction workers will lose their jobs. Homebuilders will shut down.

This will get really nasty next year when $1 trillion in ARMs are in for readjustment. Finally the Bush boom party is over.

The National Association of Realtors reported that sales of existing homes and condominiums dropped by 4.1% in July from June to a seasonally adjusted annual rate of 6.33 million – the lowest level since January 2004. Economists were forecasting the pace of sales to fall to 6.55 million.
The fragile housing market…. 
Resource Investor

Some illustrating headlines:

Housing affordability drops to record low, home builders say 
Market Watch
Affordability conundrum: Prices dip, yet homes remain out of reach
Palm Beach Post
Affordable homes still scarce here
Los Angeles Daily News
Luxury housing market sliding
phillyBurbs

Chill cast over KC housing market 
The Kansas City Star
It’s a housing market for buyers
Arizon Daily Star

Debtors on Borrowed Time
Press of Atlantic City
Homeowners feel pinch of mortgage rate
Washington Times
Study Warns of Homeowner "Rate Shock"
Consumer Affairs

Stalled housing market clouds Lowe’s outlook
Houston Chronicle
Weak housing-market hurts Toll Brothers’ profit
The Salt Lake Tribune
Dollar May Decline on Speculation of Cooling Housing Market
Bloomberg

Comments

Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.
Rev 1:3

Posted by: Guthman Bey | Aug 23 2006 16:13 utc | 1

Cursed is the one who reads these:
” The American lifestyle is not negotiable”
” Deficits don’t matter”

Posted by: pb | Aug 23 2006 16:18 utc | 2

BECAUSE THE TIME HAS COME.

Posted by: pb | Aug 23 2006 16:23 utc | 3

Before it dissappears completely, the dollar should have a picture of a burning bush on it.

Posted by: pb | Aug 23 2006 16:29 utc | 4

There is going to be a lot of pain. Hold onto your hats. Americans, if past portends the future, first turn on each other — so the set up of scapegoats is going to take us to a dark, dark place. Don’t necessarily expect that the Republicans or Bush will be blamed straight off…they are very good at twisting it around — esp with the lame assed Democrats meekly taking it…

Posted by: Elie | Aug 23 2006 16:40 utc | 5

“But by then housing markets will be down and foreclosure will come.”
Doesn’t matter, the defaulted interest will be added to the principal and it stays on the morgagor’s books as an accounts receivable asset. (Enron style financing.) And. The price of a home continues to inflate in terms of diminished dollar value. Oil rich foreiners will be able to buy American properties using stable currencies. Why else would the rest of the world be allowing the US to drown itself?

Posted by: pb | Aug 23 2006 16:53 utc | 6

Housing prices are not high in the US, they are high internationally. Canada has high housing prices, Australia has high housing prices, Spain has high housing prices, and so on.
I am not sure how the international picture fits in with the US/California situation. I suspect that California/United States has higher/larger marginal people purchasing than other countries. Those no principal mortgages are going to hurt.
I am wondering, are we going to get an international drop/stagnation in housing prices, with California being the start?
As far as the collapse of the United States goes – no – this is not it. On the other hand, the US economy has been collapsing since the early 70’s. Think stagflation, which is economic collapse by any other name. In that sense, the collapse has been extremely gradual, and will probably continue to be extremely gradual.

The moment we think of it so, we instantly realize that this condition is not abnormal or unprecedented. Rather it is the normal and ordinary condition to be found in poor and backward economies the world over. The condition is abnormal only in economies that are developing and expanding or have been doing so in the recent past, which of course are exactly the economies which have harbored, among so much else, economic scholars and thinkers from Cantillon right down to Milton Friedman and Arthur Okun.

http://www.portifex.com/BSPages/Cities&Wealtha.htm (from Cities and the Wealth of Nations by Jane Jacobs)
Other signs of the collapse include third world poverty, increasing division of wealth, political instability leading towards human rights violations (eg torture) and dictatorship.
As a footnote, it is not only the US that is suffering from stagflation.

Posted by: edwin | Aug 23 2006 17:11 utc | 7

this site was sorta interesting for valuing homes in the u.s. — zillow.com

Posted by: b real | Aug 23 2006 17:25 utc | 8

sheeeet! i have been supposedly getting my house ready for resale all summer, very delayed and slow. this morning the builders are hear doing all the leftover thkngs i haven’t gotten to and my house is in total disarray. i am painting/dump runs/tiling and shopping for light fixtures. should be ready in about a month tops.
a little late to the party. luckily i don’t have to sell but this house is way to big for me w/my son leaving home (today, bucket of anxiety). last night, big party, graffitti party my van looks wild). i am in a great neighbor hood across from a big park. it will sell, but for how much. heavens i wish i had followed my original schedule and had it ready last month.
update to follow. i’m in seattle, we aren’t exactly tanking here….wish me luck.

Posted by: annie | Aug 23 2006 17:40 utc | 9

The Good Shepard sayeth:
Don’t forget to make you monthly payments children and all will be well.

Posted by: Guthman Bey | Aug 23 2006 17:45 utc | 10

luckily i don’t have to sell but this house is way to big for me w/my son leaving home – why not rent it out (on short contracts if that is possible in your state).
Rents will go up when current marginal homeowners will have to look for a new place. Though that might be mostly for apartments, not big houses. But you should give it a look.

Posted by: b | Aug 23 2006 17:54 utc | 11

Hmmm… here’s a sign of another party that might be drawing to a close…
‘Backdoor draft’?
‘Critical shortage’ prompts involuntary recall of reservists by US Marines.

By Tom Regan | csmonitor.com

In a move that critics denounce as a ‘backdoor draft,” the US Marines and Army are recalling to active duty thousands of men and women who have been discharged for several years. According to the Associated Press, thousands of Marines are being recalled because of “a shortage of volunteers” to serve in Iraq and Afghanistan. [Editor’s note: Gee, now why could that be?]
Up to 2,500 Marines will be brought back at any one time, but there is no cap on the total number of Marines who may be forced back into service in the coming years as the military battles the war on terror. The call-ups will begin in the next several months.
This is the first time the Marines have had to use the involuntary recall since the early days of the Iraq combat. The Army has ordered back about 10,000 soldiers since the start of the war.
The BBC reports that while only 2,500 of the 60,000 inactive Marines who comprise the Individual Ready Reserve (IRR) will be recalled now, the authorization signed last month by President Bush is open-ended and will stop only when the “Global War on Terrorism” (GWOT) has ended, a sign that many thousands more could be called back to active duty in the coming months and years.
The Boston Globe reports that the former Marines will return to service for up to 18 months and will be deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan next year. Marines and soldiers may be recalled up to eight years after they have been discharged. While the Marines have been meeting recruiting and retention goals, “it is short about 1,200 specialists in engineering, military police work, communications, and intelligence operations.”
Tuesday’s announcement of the recall “raised some eyebrows” among military experts….
McClatchy News Service reports that Tuesday’s announcement coincides with a report being issued Wednesday by two military experts that “the Marines are having to borrow equipment from non-deployed units and pre-positioned stockpiles to replace tanks, trucks, armored vehicles and other hardware worn out by more than three years of combat duty in Iraq.”
The Iraq war also has put unprecedented wear and tear on the Marine Corps’ trucks, tanks and other combat equipment…. The war has forced the Marines to keep about 40% of its ground combat equipment, 50% of its communications gear and 20% of its aircraft in Iraq, the report says.
Helicopters fly two to three times more hours than they should, tanks are being used four times as much as anticipated, and Humvees are being driven an average of 480 miles a month, 70 percent of which is off-road. The harsh desert and combat losses are chewing up other gear at nine times their planned rates. Humvees that were expected to last 14 years need to be replaced after only four years in the extreme conditions of the Iraqi desert, the report says….

Posted by: Bea | Aug 23 2006 18:15 utc | 12

” The American lifestyle is not negotiable”
Depends on the lifestyle and for whom. It has certainly not been negotiable for the ultra-rich — it has only gotten better. And it has certainly not been negotiable for the poor — you might say that they don’t even have a partner to negotiate with. It has only been negotiable with the middle incomes — and all the offers have been made at them, not for them.

Posted by: Malooga | Aug 23 2006 18:15 utc | 13

Rents are have been rising rapidly in most urban areas lately.

Posted by: Guthman Bey | Aug 23 2006 18:15 utc | 14

best of luck annie. sell quickly. don’t wait. accept the first ok-sounding deal, offer. even if it is way below expectations. sell.
as said above, too.
be rid of the anxiety or a white elephant ..
if the point is to use the money to buy elsewhere, then consider the money not as money but its potential buying power in the house market. or something.
move that property now.
in europe, same story, a bit slower, etc.
and don’t take advice from strangers on the internet! 🙂
i’m a cut-your-losses kind a person.

Posted by: Noirette | Aug 23 2006 18:26 utc | 15

Good fortune with the house annie. Just going thru the process of selling right now. Final walk-thru tomorrow. I’ll be sooooo glad when it’s over. Only took two weeks to sell here in So Cal, but reduced the price by 10K for the first serious buyer. Getting the place ready to sell was a giant pain in the ass.

Posted by: ben | Aug 23 2006 18:31 utc | 16

How quickly or slowly they move is a function of the neighborhood. It’s a very micro thing. In some neighborhoods they sell immediately – older urban desireable neighborhoods have very extremely limited supplies. Near a big park gives an added premium. Supply-demand reversed in suburbs where homes are largely indistinguishable & commutes are a given w/uncertain gas prices. Sounds like Annie shouldn’t have a problem.
Annie, are you leaving the country?

Posted by: jj | Aug 23 2006 18:44 utc | 17

” The American lifestyle is not negotiable”
Damn right it ain’t. This here is a plutocracy. Americans take what the plutocrats give ’em – and it ain’t much, baby, so damn well get used to it. 80% of you have a lower standard of living than 80% of Europeans & you ain’t seen nothin’ yet…so just go die for our profits.
After reading b-‘s post on Lebanon – which I was going to link last night – you can’t call this capitalism anymore, when the system has devolved to destroying everything that’s been built over the last 2000 yrs. to steal profits, it’s degenerated into Plunderism, or Vampirism. You can of course simply define end-stage capitalism as Gangsterism in which they eat their own – including the destruction of nations so all limits are off, rather like when families degenerate into incest. But to do so masks the radical changes from when it could be argued that capitalism was a vaguely functional system.

Posted by: jj | Aug 23 2006 18:52 utc | 18

Rents are have been rising rapidly in most urban areas lately.
Posted by: Guthman Bey | Aug 23, 2006 2:15:45 PM | 14
Not at all surprising. As a landlord, near as I can tell rents are loosely related to the price that houses sell at. Depending on the vacancy rate rents will swing between slightly cheaper than owning your own home to slightly more expensive. I would expect that if there is a large number of people who loose their homes, and house prices drop, rents will not drop nearly as much, or even not at all, as demand for rental goes up. If there is a depression (and I don’t see one) then all bets are off.

Posted by: edwin | Aug 23 2006 18:52 utc | 19

Maybe Rumsfeld should plan some saturation bombing of a few choice U.S. cities, Israeli style? The vultures circling Beirut to take part of the rebuilding bonanza would go stateside, and the housing market would get a welcome boom, both as the dispossessed looked for alternative housing, and from all the reconstruction work.
Or maybe that’s not how it works with the GOP, where 10 dollars will buy you 24 cents worth of actual work as the croneys pass the loot down the chain.

Posted by: SteinL | Aug 23 2006 18:56 utc | 20

@Stein – their domestic equivalent is opening the floodgates to aliens. The 12 million illegals that have flooded in during recent decade have put huge pressures on housing prices. If they legalize them, these clowns will be allowed to bring in their relatives. That would be 30-50million more people wrecking the country & providing vast slave labor force..moving from a pop. of 250mil. people that we can comfortably accomodate to half a billion even before mid-century …finally xUS will be able to compete w/China!!

Posted by: jj | Aug 23 2006 19:54 utc | 21

I find the catastrophism of the Left in the US very interesting, especially since it extends all the way into Wall Street. Its case rests in its entirety on three sets of Keynesian macro-statistics which were developed during the 1930s: the “trade balance”, the “current account” and the “savings rate”. Neither of them adequately reflects reality in 2006.
The trade and current account balances were meaningful when nations were pre-globalist mercantilistic units.
Under globalism money flows matter, not imports vs. exports.
In the age of the ubiquitous off-shore account and unrepatriated profits, the current account cannot claim to represent financial reality at all.
The savings rate statistics are a sick joke in themselves since they don’t include unrealized capital gains. Yes that’s right: the capital gains in your 401K and the appreciation of your house over the years is not included in the “savings account”. This has lead to a statistical universe where household “net-worth” has doubled since 1980 whereas the “savings-rate” has steadily trended towards zero.
Yes it’s this idiotic. Yet, together with the former two it is the foundation of apocalyptic analysis on US housing, general debt levels, and even the “US Empire” itself (Emmanuel Todd: Aprés l’Empire).
I will be most happy to join the doom and gloom procession, but some empirical evidence I need, sorry.
Yes, housing has had regional excesses, yes residential condominiums have it coming , but the bulk of US real estate is quite solidly priced, equities are inexpensive, and the much-maligned Yankee Dollar: it is cheap.

Posted by: Guthman Bey | Aug 23 2006 19:59 utc | 22

Annie, I agree with Noirette on one point — and go one step further: Don’t take any advice from anyone. Get the advice of lots of people.
And do not even think about selling under stress. Not yet.
None of us know your financial situation, the value of your house or if you have a mortgage or what kind.
Believe me, the bubble isn’t going to break everywhere. No one is going to be able to pick up property for a song in San Fran or Malibu or NYC or probably in nice parts of Seattle either.
No matter what happens, some property is always going to be valuable. How would you like to sell today and have the worth of your house in dollars right now?

Posted by: Karlsfini | Aug 23 2006 20:10 utc | 23

guthman bey
right on. there is nothing intrinsic about finance capital compelling its collapse. but the investment in war needed to destroy idle capital is, before our very eyes, a global threat, as is the global attack on wages and the crisis of wage-inflation. so long as workers are willing to bear the price of immiseration, and the environment able to bear its threatened destruction, this could go on a very long time.

Posted by: slothrop | Aug 23 2006 20:35 utc | 24

Exactly slothrop:
There is no “it” (or “id” if you are Freudian), there is only “us”. All this waiting for extraneous “events” is reminiscent of nothing more than the unending Messiah watch of the Abrahamic faiths.

Posted by: Guthman Bey | Aug 23 2006 20:45 utc | 25

@jj:
When I was born the population of the US was 170-180 Million. Now its ballooned up to 300 Million. We are expected to reach 400 Million before 2050, and 500 Million by 2060 or so, and then keep on going! It’s sheer madness. Even immigrants to this country consume at unsustainable rates because of how the country is structured. By 2060 the US alone will be consuming more resources than the entire world is now. Clearly this is impossible, but I don’t see any politician willing to address it except Pat Buchanan, and he’s only willing to address it on racist terms (Whites will be the minority). The progressive position is suppossed to be to accept all the immigrants we can. And yet the same people who advocate accepting immigrants protest more oil drilling and more power plants and more pollution. Its like progressives are blind to cause and effect here, just like liberals are blind when the word Israel comes up. The first step towards ending third world suffering is stopping the insane “free-trade agreements” which are responsible for stealing third world land and resources, and then reversing our growth and consumption.
Here’s a scary reason why the elite will never accept a steady state population, much less a falling one: The real estate and housing industries. If population leveled off the housing industry would die. If population fell, the cost of housing would fall sharply, probably below replacement value. This would scare people because most people work their whole lives to pay for their house, and they can’t imagine any other system. The thought that one could just get a house pretty cheaply upon adulthood is too much for people to take in. And then a falling population means less work. But work is still commodified. Everyone is suppossed to have a job and work all their lives. The thought that we could then all work half-time, or less, to get what we want is pretty hard for people to take in. But now we are getting into Bookchin territory, and that’s another thread.
Anyway, sustainability studies generally put the max US population in the range of 100 Million, so we are way past there. Also, way below 2 Billion for the entire world for sustainability.

Posted by: Malooga | Aug 24 2006 0:34 utc | 26

@GB #22:
Excellent post! I haven’t touched on this. Almost everything we are taught in Economics is fairy tales, much like the myth of American benevolence as foreign policy. In addition to the three indices you point out, there is of course GNP, as well as per capita income, stock market prices, etc. All of these are either meaningless, or mean the exact opposite of what we are taught! This topic is worth a thread on its own, or at least a long in-depth post. I am still learning in this area. Any books you suggest?
I don’t believe that war is needed to mop up excess capital — there are endless sustainable projects where capital could be absorbed, but they would all have a very unpleasant side effect; namely, they would increase equality. And the elites would never stand for intentionally creating a more equal society. The function of war and destruction is primarily fivefold: To increase inequality in general; to create new pockets of poverty in war-torn regions which increases the edge that the developed countries have over the undeveloped or newly destroyed countries, and makes it easier to take their resources for our benefit; here at home, war acts as a crony system rewarding friends and supporting universities; also, as Keynes noted, a war economy provides employment; and finally, equally important as all of the above reasons, war creates fear, which allows the population tobe controlled.
there is nothing intrinsic about finance capital compelling its collapse.
Marx couln’t have said it better himself. Still waiting for that revolution…

Posted by: Malooga | Aug 24 2006 0:52 utc | 27

whoops, didn’t proof-read that post first.
GDP, I think GNP is a vitamin store.
By the way, Chomsky would agree with what I wrote about war, but then Chomsky’s not a Marxist, so what does he know? I guess both he and I must be wrong.

Posted by: Malooga | Aug 24 2006 0:57 utc | 28

P.S. I hope b reads GB’s post and gives it some thought. He is a big Todd fan.

Posted by: Malooga | Aug 24 2006 0:59 utc | 29

Yes isn’t it revealing, this enormous influx into the “economically failing” US…
I have to say this is a label I dig: “White Anarchists for Buchanan.” You should send him your love Malooga. I am sure he will appreciate it.
So you are having a study group on Bookchin, but soon reality hits: these inveterately breeding darkies (“these clowns” according to jj) are supposed to stay where they belong.
Aren’t you at least a little bit embarassed?

Posted by: Guthman Bey | Aug 24 2006 1:04 utc | 30

Actually Malooga, up here in Canada GNP means Gross National Product (Gov’t Canada).
Oh, apparently GNP also includes foreign income from exports etc., from BBC: “what domestic companies earn abroad minus what foreign companies earn here and expatriate.”
Although with so many USians shopping for precription drugs across the border, it does make GNP sound kinda like a big vitamin store!

Posted by: jonku | Aug 24 2006 1:33 utc | 31

Any books you suggest?
I haven’t read any books on economics in ages, but I guess that’s because I dabble in the markets on a daily basis. When I did read books on economics I enjoyed the first volume of “Das Kapital” which is a very informative overview of bourgeois economics and good fun. Fun is important to me, which rules out 99.9% of all books on economics (which includes the other volumes of Marx’s Magnum Opus, where he pretends to prove his theory, but in fact only sets up a giant maze).
Jude Wanniski was a smart guy, so was Keynes (too authoritarian though for my taste).
All in all though, I drop all these guys gladly for Wilhelm Reich and his analysis of the armored human. Of course I can’t prove it, but I think the curse is in each of us and our surroundings merely reflect that. Why can we only create deserts?

Posted by: Guthman Bey | Aug 24 2006 1:37 utc | 32

Well, remember all the Liberal Jews in Dade county who “voted” for Buchanan in 2000 put Shrub into the White House, so why not design the ballots so white anarchists have the opportunity to support him too!
I’m not going to defend jj’s use of language — it’s clearly not mine. I realize that US policies are the major cause of violence, immiseration, and even population growth around the world. That’s why I support the change of all of our policies which create these conditions, as well as fostering domination and inequality.
It is the corporate privatisation of the commons that forces people off their lands. My friends who spend each winter in South America come back with endless stories and tales of this violence. Last year, I saw their photos and heard their stories of strikes and dislocations in Bolivia and Mexico.
I am not against immigrants coming into the US — I’m against population growth, here most especially, but also worldwide. So-called “free trade” provides for the unrestricted movement of goods and capital, but not people. There are plenty of people here in America who would be happy to leave this country, in a more just world, and live somewhere else. Heck, there are plenty who want to leave, or are leaving, now, because they are so scared of Bushism. So, as we leave, they can come. I don’t care what the race the majority of people in this country are. I’ve always been a minority racially, but most especially, viewpointwise — so I will always be a minority no matter where I go.
Anyway, I live in an area with lots of immigrants, and I know many people, mostly from Central America, but also Lebanon, Greece, Armenia, and Ireland. Young kids like to travel for fun and adventure. But most people I know did not want to leave their homeland — it’s hard, lonely, dangerous, and stressful, and it takes a lot of work learning a whole new culture — most people simply want to be able to earn enough money to buy a house and raise a family. And if they had the opportunity to do that in their native land, they would.
So, we should allow for freer movement of people while at the same time restricting movement of capital and goods. And we should do everything we can to increase equality, and the ability of people around the world to meet their basic needs. We wouldn’t have to worry about “why they hate us” either, if we followed more just policies.

Posted by: Malooga | Aug 24 2006 1:55 utc | 33

@GB:
By your comments on Reich and Marx, it sounds like you are a social theorist. Better not let slothrup know. He is bright enough to wind his way through the maze, and he never lets those of us who aren’t forget it. But then he is a member of the vanguard, and I’m just a working stiff.
I’m familiar with all those that you have mentioned. I’m looking for a popular book debunking the economic indicators we mentioned, as that is one chapter that is not complete in the book I am writing. Hazel Henderson, Catherine Austin Fitts, Dollars and Sense publications, and Left Business Observer, all talk about some of this — but no one puts it all together.

Posted by: Malooga | Aug 24 2006 2:09 utc | 34

@Malooga – completely Agree. All discussion Must Begin w/Incinerate the NAFTA/CAFTA. They’re whole purpose to drive Latins off their land up north where they drive up living costs while driving down wages. Thom Hartmann is the only one on top of it enough to note that there were 3M illegals here when agreements were signed a decade ago, but 12M now. So, while Clinton lied by slamming NAFTA down American’s throats claiming it would reduce immigration, it’s destroyed the way of life of millions. That’s criminal, unless you know anyone who likes being forced off their land & out of their country. All people in the hemisphere lose w/this arrangement.
Earth can accomodate either industrial civilization or 6 billion people, but not both. I agree that since we consume more, we have to keep our population way down to compensate. Not to mention locating our factories & farms regionally. The suburbs are fine, w/sufficient land to be able to grow a quality garden, if they were dotted w/centers of production. I don’t get JHKunstler’s worship of cities. Anyone want to live in on the 10th or 20th or 30th floor of an apt. building as power brownouts become regular occurrences & w/zero capacity to grow any food?
Has anyone bothered swinging by Kunster’s place recently? Jesus, if AIPAC isn’t paying him they might as well.

Posted by: jj | Aug 24 2006 2:10 utc | 35

deanander & slothrop both have recommended the book debunking economics in the past

Posted by: b real | Aug 24 2006 2:13 utc | 36

@Malooga, the reason restrictions were placed on immigration was because it was Demanded by organized labor ‘cuz it’s impossible to keep wages up otherwise. Most recently Caesar Chavez fought like hell & successfully to do this. Just ‘cuz organized labor has been destroyed doesn’t mean the rest of us have to have our heads stuck back in the 60’s & fall for the elite race baiting bullshit. It’s not just wages, it’s working conditions as a whole. If they are not allowed to bring in aliens to teach, they have to address why Americans don’t want to teach in certain districts, etc. Otherwise we are ALL treated as irrelevant, disposable & unable to dictate terms of our labor.

Posted by: jj | Aug 24 2006 2:18 utc | 37

no one puts it all together.
Does anyone have it all together? Is the human blueprint designed to have it all together?

Posted by: Guthman Bey | Aug 24 2006 2:24 utc | 38

By your comments on Reich and Marx, it sounds like you are a social theorist
No I see myself more like Howard the Duck: Born into a World I Never Made…

Posted by: Guthman Bey | Aug 24 2006 2:33 utc | 39

“When I was born the population of the US was 170-180 Million. Now its ballooned up to 300 Million.”
Meanwhile, India, a country only about a third the size of the US has a population of over a billion.

Posted by: pb | Aug 24 2006 2:45 utc | 40

“Why can we only create deserts?”
Could it be because deserts are the result of destruction not creation?

Posted by: pb | Aug 24 2006 3:02 utc | 41

@b real: Thanks.
@pb:
Yeah, and its been a disaster since its population passed 600M. They don’t have the great plains and Alaska we have, which greatly narrows the population comparison. I imagine out population densities on the east and west coast are more comparable to India. But, anyway, we’ve got unbridled neo-liberalism, militarism, hindu fundamantalism, environmental catastrophe, farmer suicides, incredible populations of shanty town beggars, etc.
@GB 38: Maybe we should ease off jj’s choice of words tonight.
@jj:
I agree with most of what you said. A few differences:
Earth can accomodate either industrial civilization or 6 billion people, but not both. Neither long term, I believe. We are living off water tables that won’t hold up, etc.
Kunstler likes cities, but not skyscrapers. He specifically uses the example of the skyscraper losing electricity and all the water pipes breaking. I was just thinking of swinging by there today — haven’t been there in months. Thanks for the heads up. I like his writing style a lot, and also his architectural monstrosity of the month replete with the world’s most sardonic comments ever written (drape a plastic bag over your computer and don’t eat anything when you go there), but he can be tiring with his chicken-little routine which lacks any subtlety or shading. Some of what he says is just over-the-top fear mongering, and wrong.
Good to remind us that Chavez was against immigration. For those interested, here’s some pretty good graphs on immigration.

Posted by: Malooga | Aug 24 2006 3:08 utc | 42

On illegal immigrants I have only one thing to say:
The people who come to the US are from foreign countries that were actually annexed to our political economy decades ago–sometimes centuries ago.
So in what sense are they foreign? That they bear the burden of our civilization but are denied the benefits.
Some would argue that that is the whole point and reason that civilizations are set up. I won’t gainsay that. But it is an idea that raises more problems than it solves.

Posted by: Gaianne | Aug 24 2006 3:56 utc | 43

annie–
You can always sell your house if you drop your price. But if you go that route, don’t follow the market down from behind: Bite the bullet, and price it down below the market to get in front. If this means 20%, don’t be surprised, though it may not mean that. Be alert. Good luck.
PS. Recently I met a man who casually mentioned he does house appraisals, and I joked, “how is work going in the new housing slump.” He did not take offense but answered me straight: “Oh, (Here in Connecticut) I have plenty of work. Mostly foreclosures.” This is interesting has Connecticut has not achieved any fame as a bubble area, though prices are high.

Posted by: Gaianne | Aug 24 2006 4:09 utc | 44

[Warning: I’m tired!]
We are living off water tables that won’t hold up, etc.
@Malooga, I was going to add that, but thght. that would be too detaily for the moment. But that is a bottom line issue for why we have to put a screeching halt to our population.
A few yrs. ago, I was where most 60’s folks are wrt immigration…Then I realized I was reasoning from my past politics & my own personal experience. I was not looking at the long term future of the country, I was not looking at how latins were suffering for NAFTA/CAFTA destroying their lives & forcing them even out of their own countries; I was selfishly only looking at their impact upon my economics, rather than the Americans who were being seriously adversely impacted. As soon as I realized that I started listening more carefully to liberals who say fine let ’em flood in. When they’re confronted by the people who are hurt by their presence, they’ll concede – sure some people are hurt, but they’re people around the margins. In other words, it ain’t me that’s hurt, just some poor working class schlubs out there, so screw ’em…meanwhile I get to feel so warm fuzzy & liberal, so warm, accepting & non-racist, all the while others are the ones forced to sacrifice…
Another issue is that most of the people forced up here, are peasants who have both valuable knowledge about how to live on the land that is being destroyed. Further, w/the Age of Expensive Energy on the horizon, we need to be thinking in terms of more people living off the land, reversing the land->city flow that has characterized the Age of Industrialization.
A Fundamental reason why these treaties need to be incinerated, not reworked, is that they treat the earth as a carpet filled w/lice (people) who need to be shaken off/herded into easily manipulable slave labor forces in urban shanty towns, so that the Pirates can seize control of the land & resources of the planet. The entire hemisphere, thus, has a stake in defending latins right to stay on their land. It’s the only way we are going to make it.

Posted by: jj | Aug 24 2006 5:59 utc | 45

Hear! hear! Gaianne and to take it further those who imagine that the fact people are still migrating to the US means it must be still doing ok are missing the point.
Firstly in an economy where sucess is measured in terms of simple growth just by turning up immigrants are ‘making it better’. Without them amerika may have bitten the dust already.
The US still has many advantages over the developing world for any aspiring mainchancer at the bottom of the labor market while for some of those at the top end of the labour market with skills and knowledge in high demand amerika offers them a leg up toward the elites where the state of the economy is irrelevant.
An easy ready reckoner for the affordability of housing is the cost vs median earnings ratio. The ‘real cost’.
Back in the day when anyone with a job could buy a home, house prices averaged out at three times annual median earnings. The if the median income was $20,000 then an average run of the mill domestic dwelling would be around $60,000.
That was where it was for most of last century in both Australia and NZ, but now the prices have blown right out to nine times median earnings in NZ, Australia is much the same maybe worse.
The banks are starting to talk 50 year mortgages and a few of us are agitating for the government to regulate something just once this century and stop this; because while the increase in mortgage terms will make the banks rich it will do nothing for first home buyers except guarantee they pay a lot more and never ever get to retire.
Reading the economic gabble up above, all I know is we live in a demand market driven economy where the price of something has nothing to do with it’s cost and everything to do with how much you can get for it.
In housing this means that whilst people pretend to look at the ‘price of a house before they buy it, the price eg that $867,000 figure is really just a short-hand function of how much a week or a month their payments are going to be.
This means that extending the term of the mortgage will drop the payments for the first week or two until mugs start going “Lemme see now, if we take out a 50 year mortgage we can live in a ‘nicer’ area” and then pretty soon demand forces everyone to take out a 50 year mortgage to pay the same amount a month they were paying on a 30 year loan for the same sort of home.
As far as I can work out there have been three major causes of the increase in house prices. The first is going to be the most difficult to solve in a demand economy and the biggest, cause it probably near doubled the real price from 3 times median income to 6 times median income. It is of course the mass utilization of women in the workforce.
In NZ the female labour participation rate is drawing within a few percentage points of the male participation rates. The difference in earning by gender has decreased markedly as well with large discrepancies confined mainly to the highest and lowest incomes. In the middle where most people are difference in earning by gender has become a thing of the past.
An interesting aside is that the creation of two income units as a societal norm has probably been a hidden factor in the ‘gay marriage’ laws. Although surprisingly few gay couples have bothered to do the registry office or church ceremony thing the change in the law which has enabled a variety of mixes of genders and inclination to function as one financial household unit was essential for anyone wanting to own a property that wasn’t interested in a long term hetero-sexual relationship. The irony is of course that once again in a demand economy enabling more people to participate in the housing market pushes the real price of housing up.
Immigration is the second biggest driver of housing prices here and it has been a Two pronged attack from both ends of the market. Rich or at least not struggling refugees from social oppression and war in the Northern Hemisphere have had large wads of cash which they realised on their northern home to put into the southern market and while the really amazing deals ended around the turn of the century people coming from a large northern metropolis can usually upscale at least a couple of degrees. A couple of summers ago a photo of Bill Gates splashing in the shallows of the beach just down the road from where I live appeared in the local fishwrap, apparently he was staying with one of his earliest investors who has made this town his home. Much to the detriment of the locals since property taxes are based on market valuatiions and someone may only have paid thousands for a home that is worth millions that they won’t see until they sell which they don’t want to do. I’m sure many will know that story. It’s kind of karmic really since that was how Maori lost the prime spots a century ago.
The entry level to the market has been extra competitive with extended families of less well off migrants from developing nations able to put 3 or even 4 incomes into the pot where-as the kiwi units generally have only two incomes.
The final force on the housing market has been us fucking baby boomers who have been buying up houses as an investment. This is where the collapse in NZ will begin since the rents that these ‘investors’ get are miniscule in comparision to the notional value of the house. Everybody is going for the capital gain which is completely tax free here. Trouble is of course that the market is skittish and unless immigration can be not just maintained but increased demand must drop since young families can no longer afford to buy and are just renting. The end is nigh and I’m sure we’re going to be flat out like a lizard drinking at the community centre when the shit hits the fan.
If only it just got the greedy assholes cause it needs to happen. Owning a house is part of the glue that keeps mobs, clans, whanau, families whatever you want to call the many and varied way that people combine into cohesive units, together, and many young ‘cohesive units’ are failing for want of the stability a home can bring.
Apart from the negative effect on those entering the property market I really wouldn’t give a toss as it’s all bullshit money anyway if you get a big price for your house than that means you will have to pay a big price for the next one. Equally a small sale price means your next purchase will also be small. As long as you’ve stayed away from money lenders that is.
I wouldn’t want to owe any asshole bank a brass razoo so I don’t, and having given up getting married as a lifestyle choice, I only buy what we want and know that it will stay ours, nevertheless high interest rates effect us all because they encourage far too much foreign investment which undermines NZ’s economic sovereignty even more that it already is.
Who knows what’s coming next? The western economy only has years left. If decades it won’t be many decades.
Down here we have to hope that 500 years of not straying outside it’s natural geographic borders means that China has given up on Imperial expansion for good. While it is possible that Japan may pin it’s ears back and make a dash for this part of the world , it won’t be able to if China is fit and strong. I suppose the biggest danger will be if amerika tries to resist China from securing Australian resources.
If the US carries on too much then China will invade Australia and probably NZ by logical extension. If the US is too busy dealing with it’s own internal disintegration to try and stop China, then the chances are we will be left alone, in terms of direct, overt rule, although China will be bound to take certain ‘precautions’ to secure their interests. Same as amerika did, although maybe China won’t resort to murdering our leaders or engineering illegal coups, that would be a turn for the better, for sure.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Aug 24 2006 6:50 utc | 46

Debs–
Bill Gates in NZ? Shit! Another fantasy down the drain. There really is no place to run to!

Posted by: Gaianne | Aug 24 2006 12:24 utc | 47

6bio people is simply impossible in the long run, this is unsustainable as long as we have to rely on the resources of Earth. Maybe if we colonised some buts of the rest of the solar system, we could hope to do it. But even with starving farmers making up 99% of these 6billions, it would only last a few decades.
As Malooga pointed to, maximum load is under the 2bio mark, and I fully expect the global population to be under the 2 bio when this century ends. By how much is the real question, and it’ll depend on our ability to survive, to adapt, and to be smart enough to see what’s coming. That also means our ability to pick decent leaders and not complete basketcases lost in lalaland.
India is at 1+ billion, sure. Do you think they can keep it for long? Same for China, of course. And in fact, same for the rest of Asia, US, Europe, Africa, and even Latin America. Every major area will see a major reduction in population; how it’ll happen is the true challenge – because if things go really bad, we may well go the way of the dodo.

Posted by: CluelessJoe | Aug 24 2006 15:50 utc | 48

Well put, debs is dead, really an excellent description of the problem all through the developed world seen through your personal lens.
After the sugar plantations failed around the turn of the last century (1900) due to the rise of the European sugar beet industry, St. Croix democratized into a poor island of relatively small landholdings. The land assessors used the cover of the depression to monkey around with taxes, and pushed the working poor off the land. Eventually seven families controlled the island — the judgeships and courts, the harbors for smuggling, the politics, the flow of drugs to disempower the poor, the productive land, the whole shebang. Eventually Stateside investment money wormed its way in, led by the Rockefellers, developing fancy tourist resorts, while the landless locals had to beg for ill-paid,no benefit service jobs.This led to the Fountain Valley Massacre where eight people were pointlessly killed at the Rockefeller-owned gated community Golf Course. It is a fascinating multi-layered story — the link doesn”t begin to do it justice — with many ironies, and motives and plotlines, which I will not go into here. Suffice it to say that anger was deflected from rich local oppressors to rich stateside oppressors. Property prices fell by 30-50% instantly, and the dream of St. Croix ever becoming a so-called “world class” tourist destination was forever gone. So, the island became poor and tacky.
I guess the point of this story is that repressed social forces often go unforeseen until they erupt, which they always eventually do. Then the well-off property owning class always act surprised, “Why do they hate us?” Sound familiar? When the shit hits fan, the rich blame the poor for their lack of “foresight” and for “not understanding their own interests.” But the poor, while slightly poorer, are really no worse off — in some ways they are better off with the crash of the boom economy. They are less an overstocked commodity and more a force tobe reckoned with.
@jj:
Boston is famous for its conflicts between “warm-hearted” liberals, and its working class. Two particular tales intersected: School busing, and the intentional destruction of the working class Jewish community of Mattapan.
The school busing saga is probably well known by many. It is usually portrayed in the press as a conflict between the prejudiced poor Irish who didn’t want to go to school with blacks, and the great liberal defenders of social justice. Of course, it was nothing of the sort.
Boston is a very small city geographically. The wealthy suburbs of Newton and Wellesley are as close to the downtown hub and the working class neighborhoods of Mattapan and Hyde Park. But, schools are funded by property taxes — so the suburbs have great schools and the city has mediocre underfunded schools. God forbid the suburbs integrate their schools with the city system, or tax revenues be allocated statewide thus equalizing school funding. Instead the wealthy suburbans concocted the scheme of school busing whereby kids, instead of being able to walk to school with their friends, had to take 30-60 minute bus rides twice a day. No one wanted this. But of course it went through, deflecting attention from the income disparities between city core and suburbs, which was the real problem. Let me reiterate: All the liberals from Newton, Welesley, etc. were in favor of the plan, but NONE of them wanted to opt in and see there kids bussed to poor black inner city schools.
The destruction of the Jewish community of Mattapan went like this: Mattapan was a working class inner-city Jewish community, where everyone’s parents grew up and the streets were lined with delicatessens and pickle shops. It was an aging community. Most of the kids grew up and, better off then their immigrant parents, they moved to the suburbs. Slowly lower middle-class blacks were buying the houses that came on the market. The neighborhood was integrating slowly and peacefully. But the bankers weren’t happy because most of the mortgages in the neighborhood were payed off and they weren’t making any money off the neighborhood. So they started blockbusting: getting in cahoots with the realtors and selling the houses that did come on the market for no money down to poor blacks who were not stable enough to own homes. Instantly, there was pandemonium. Crime came in, houses were deteriorating, being repossessed and recycled on to the market again. Property prices fell to half of what they were, and the elder Jews saw much of their life savings wiped out. Jew and black fell into conflict.
But, perhaps most ironic, the conflict split the Jewish community along class lines. The second generation Jews who had moved to the suburbs now had significant ties to the banking and real estate industries. These ties caused them to become instant liberals, siding against the interests of the working class Jews — accusing them of racism — and becoming best friends with poor blacks they had never met, and would never meet. Of course, their neighborhoods remained lily-white, and had rising property values.
So, eventually the Jewish neighborhood of Mattapan was destroyed. The working class Jews fled, often finding it difficult to buy houses in other neighborhoods. The lucky ones were now sixty years old and saddled with new 30 year mortgages. The great synagogues of Blue Hill Avenue stood empty. Once the neighborhood was destroyed and turned into a semi-slum,the banks stopped their blockbusting and began demanding sizable downpayments to purchase a house. And the suburban Jews bought up property for a song as rental income.
Ain’t liberalism great? The two books that tell these stories are “Common Ground” and “Death of an American Jewish Community”

Posted by: Malooga | Aug 24 2006 16:30 utc | 49

@Guthman
An even trade balance means you’re trading stuff for suff; a trade deficit means you’re trading paper (dollars) for stuff. The more you do that, the less value the paper will have. Come in interest raises.
Current account deficits mean your government is lending (ruling out the ‘just print some more’ option here). Meaning greater demand on the money markets, meaning higher interests.
Savings rate is not to be confused with personal worth. True, it does tell you someting about individuals, about how much cash they have available, but the more important meaning of this indicator is how much money is available for investments. And investments are required for economical growth.
All very much monetary economy 101.
Your argument is basically that it’s safe to sit in a crashing plane as long as you don’t recognise the laws of gravity.

Posted by: DharmaBum | Aug 24 2006 17:56 utc | 50

@DharmaBum:
Are you suggesting that Ma and Pa Kettle, and their inability to save and invest in economic growth is holding this country back; or that we are suffering from a lack of investment money in this country, rather than a destructive surfeit, leading to high-tech boom/bust cycles; or that there isn’t a kabillion uncounted dollars hidden in offshore accounts just waiting for the right investment.
It’s a great story you tell, and it all makes logical sense the way you tell it, but the story is missing so many crucial facts and there are so many half-truths, that it is little more than a convenient myth used to keep the hoi-polloi scared and in line. James Baker and George Bush I will not suffer if we go into a recession, I can assure you — just like Jackie Onassis’ father made a fortune in the crash of ’29.

Posted by: Malooga | Aug 24 2006 18:17 utc | 51

” The American lifestyle is not negotiable”
The crucial question is how did America get into the position of making such crappy statements?
What is this arrogance? Everything is negotiable if someone can take it from you.
America uses about a quarter of the worlds oil/gas fossil fuels, produces a quarter of the world’s garbage, and a quarter of more or noxious emissions. Everyone knows this, barring the garbage.
Yet America, in per capita or by/area stats is not the worst ‘offender’. Those awards go to small, rich, densely populated EU countries, such as Belgium and the Netherlands, who burn and consume like mad, way beyond US stats.
That is because the US is a wide open country with acceptable climate in many places and so does, as it ‘can’, contain many people living in poverty. People living in the South, say in Miss., have absolutely no idea of the richness of Amman or Dubai or even previously Baghdad, or the outskirts or Paris, they see all those people as rag-heads or cheese-eaters who smell.
They don’t know that the conditions they are living in would be considered vile or illegitimate by any European and many in Arab or ME states (except the very poor in Saudi, many in Yemen, Afghanistan – etc.)
The myth of a rich, powerful, righteous America has been upheld by the Gvmt. and media to inculcate a feeling of inherent superiority, accompanied with a crazy ideology (free market, democracy, etc.) which feeds the army, the factories, the service industries who need cheap labor. Bush pushed the Kristian Kooks thing – he’s the end of a long line. Anything to make the people become more dumbed-down.
The deep reasons are that the US had cheap energy, wide open spaces, ok agriculture, enough water. Those advantages have slowly been eroded. The pioneer spirit and racist exploitation are dust, energy and even water for agriculture are (or are soon to be) very problematic. The (mainly) Mexican immigrants cannot compensate for losses and depletion, they only have arms and legs, and need to eat.
The US invested its surplus into arms-build-up to face a fake enemy (USSR, communism), as if its fragile existence had to be ‘defended’ and internally an enemy was always necessary. The USSR felt the same; Gorby put an end to it.
Now the US must capitalise on its strengths.
Disaster.
Heh! One version of the long view.

Posted by: Noirette | Aug 24 2006 18:59 utc | 52

“All very much monetary economy 101”
That is an exhaustive description of your response. You didn’t bother to think through anything I wrote.

Posted by: Guthman Bey | Aug 24 2006 19:08 utc | 53

it was bush sr in 1992, at the earth summit in rio, who set the terms for u.s. participation in addressing global environmental issues by warning the rest of the planet that “the american way of life is not sustaina negotiable.” originally, they were not so much words of defiance, but rather blunt force to exert control.

Posted by: b real | Aug 24 2006 19:37 utc | 54

b , i don’t want to rent it because i have been a landlord for 20 years, it just not me anymore.
noirette move that property now.
thats the plan, like i said earlier very desirable area.
ben giant pain in the ass.
you’re tellin me!
jj Annie, are you leaving the country?
seriously considering it but not for awhile anyway, my mom is 80, i am moving closer for the final years, back to the bay area where i was raised, to my already paid for home i bought in 78, cheap, 3 grand down. my plan tho, if i can pull it together, is to get land w/a few people, solar, garden etc. try to get out of the money loop.saw some land w/a river running thru it this summer, i’m aching for it. near a reservation, in a beautiful valley, where the main road stops up against a mountain range. the only reason to go to this area is to be there, no thru traffic for the whole valley. and its not a tourist attraction. other than that, i am considering canada.
karlsfini Don’t take any advice from anyone.
actually, i have a very good instinct for property. so far everything i have touched has turned to gold. plus, i love land houses and architecture. it is in my blood. i was blessed w/incredible financial luck and instinct. if i could trade it for being lucky in another certain area, i would. i listen and take everything in, but ultimately i listen to myself w/regards to property.
And do not even think about selling under stress
excellent advice. i don’t make financial decisions when i’m hungover either! actually i am very clear i do not need/want to live in a 3 story house. my mother told me once, the larger the house, the more you have to clean.
malooga The thought that we could then all work half-time, or less, to get what we want is pretty hard for people to take in.
this is a tough nut for some people to crack. i had a conversation w/a guy once who could simply not get it thru his head that we do not have to be slaves to the system, that it does require some agreement. for one thing. the constant agreement that we have to work indirectly for our sustenance. i really think the next generation is going to be rethinking the whole money concept. i don’t even think they realize the nightmare debt they are getting saddled with. hopefully they flip the concept of corporate power. somethings got to snap the status quo. otherwise it will be a slave society.
gaianne don’t follow the market down from behind:

Posted by: annie | Aug 24 2006 19:43 utc | 55

Paul Krugman: Housing Gets Ugly

Toll’s announcement was one of many indications that the long-feared housing bust has arrived. Home sales are down sharply; home prices … are now falling in much of the country. The inventory of unsold existing homes is at a 13-year high; builders’ confidence is at a 15-year low.

The current downturn, Mr. Toll now says, is unlike anything he’s seen: sales are slumping despite the absence of any “macroeconomic nasty condition”… He suggests that unease about the direction of the country and the war in Iraq is undermining confidence. All I have to say is: pop!
Now what? Until recently most business economists were predicting a “soft landing” for housing. Even now, the majority opinion seems to be that we’re looking at a cooling market, not a bust. But this complacency looks increasingly like denial, as hard data — which tend … to lag what’s actually going on … — start to confirm anecdotal evidence that it is, indeed, a bust.

Moreover, it could be both a deep and a prolonged bust. Since 2000, much of the nation has experienced a rise in home prices comparable to the boom in Southern California during the late 1980’s. After that bubble popped, Los Angeles house prices began a slow, grinding deflation, eventually falling 20 percent (34 percent after adjusting for inflation). Prices didn’t begin a sustained recovery until 1996, more than six years after the downturn began.
Now imagine the same thing happening across a large part of the United States. It’s an ugly picture, and not just for people and companies in the construction business. Many homeowners — especially those who bought their houses with interest-only loans or with minimal down payments — will find themselves in financial distress. And the economy as a whole will take a hit.

While I don’t share Mr. Roubini’s certainty, I see his point: housing has been the main engine of U.S. economic growth over the past three years, and with that engine now going into reverse, it’s hard to see how we can avoid a serious slowdown.

Posted by: b | Aug 25 2006 4:42 utc | 56

@Debs, you said
Hear! hear! Gaianne and to take it further those who imagine that the fact people are still migrating to the US means it must be still doing ok are missing the point.
Firstly in an economy where sucess is measured in terms of simple growth just by turning up immigrants are ‘making it better’. Without them amerika may have bitten the dust already………

Yet you apply the reverse argument here:
….As far as I can work out there have been three major causes of the increase in house prices. The first is going to be the most difficult to solve in a demand economy and the biggest, cause it probably near doubled the real price from 3 times median income to 6 times median income. It is of course the mass utilization of women in the workforce….”
Debs, DO you hear how sexist this sounds?

Posted by: gylangirl | Aug 25 2006 16:50 utc | 57

@gylangirl, haven’t you gotten it – sexism is cool here, or if it’s not there is zero indication of that, as it’s quite rampant & uncontested apart from the two of us…only what’s called racism isn’t! Anyway Debs said awhile ago that he’s proud of his hatred of women, after which I stopped reading him, so you shouldn’t be surprised by any sexist crap he churns out.

Posted by: jj | Aug 25 2006 17:09 utc | 58

gylangirl, I think when Debs says, “Firstly in an economy where sucess is measured in terms of simple growth just by turning up immigrants are ‘making it better’.”
He is not promoting the “demand economy” that needs to grow, he is just saying that it exists.
So, when he says, “The first [problem] is going to be the most difficult to solve in a demand economy and the biggest, cause it probably near doubled the real price from 3 times median income to 6 times median income. It is of course the mass utilization of women in the workforce….”
He is saying that the mass utilization of women in the workforce is a problem for a demand economy (which, once again, he doesn’t like but it is what we have), “The irony is of course that once again in a demand economy enabling more people to participate in the housing market pushes the real price of housing up.”
So the point of this thread, housing prices, is being addressed by Debs. I don’t know enough about economics to say whether he is correct.
So he isn’t trying to enslave women. I know you feel that women suffer unfair taxation in the US when they are part of a two-earner family, but do you think that Debs is trying to enslave women into working, or that he doesn’t want women to work?
I’m confused.
As a possible interpretation, Debs may be taking a shortcut between let’s say 50 years ago, when few women worked, to now when many do — he talks also about median incomes in NZ being about equal. So I guess blaming the demand economy’s exacerbation of housing price increases on working women is a bit odd. However, in describing the economy as it is, if he is correct, I don’t read this as a sexist remark.
The “problem” of women working is poorly phrased, but we have had recent discussions touching on the idea that fulltime employment is not a necessary goal for both sexes.
As far as sexism goes, I think you are missing the mark unless you consider all males to be sexist. There seem to be many different women and men posting here, and I don’t notice rampant sexist viewpoints, in fact the opposite.
Can you clarify your position for me?

Posted by: jonku | Aug 25 2006 19:03 utc | 59

Debs could have made the same point with better phrasing.
Also, I know a very successful young lady who lived by herself in a huge new house in a gated community but got very frustrated because she could’nt find a man.
Well she moved into a much smaller crib and now she’s married to a postman.
Still seems to be the case that some men can be wary of women who appear to have significantly more earning and/or spending power than they have.

Posted by: jony_b_cool | Aug 25 2006 20:23 utc | 60

I won’t vouch for comments Did might have made in the past, but this comment does not strike me as sexist — it is merely a recitation of fact. Yes, it is an economic fact that with the general entry of women into the workforce the average purchasing power of salaries has fallen and expenses like housing have gone up. So now, the average two wage earner family has little more purchasing power than the average single earner family did in 1960 — an often less. This is a commonly acknowledged economic fact — just google purchasing power and follow the links.
This doesn’t mean that it isn’t good that women have entered the workforce, and been accorded the same rights as men. Clearly, many of the social justice movements of the sixties and seventies bore fruit.
But it does make it harder for the single person to survive and raise a family — as Did has done. So did my own mother, for that matter, in raising me and my siblings after a divorce. My mother was a nurse, and on that basic salary, and a small amount of alimony, three kids were raised just fine. We all got to go to summer camp all summer. We owned a beautiful single-family house. And we all went to top-notch private colleges without my parents taking out loans. That is just not possible today.
Anyway, it is true that Did is talking about the nature of the demand economy in general, and not opining on the value of women having the same rights as men.
I find it interesting that when I called jj out on an instance of sexism the other day there was deafing silence from the distaff side of this blog — no one spoke up, either to defend her, or to agree with me. So, the question arises, why is there so much interest in attacking Did now?
Furthermore, while the social advances of the sixties had many beneficial results in modern industrialized society, we could take this discussion one step further, and look at the general question of work, and its meaning, from a more basic level, as Bookchin did. Is it really necessary for all of us to have to work as many hours as we do, often in powerless, demeaning, and boring menial jobs, while an elite 7% of society get to have challenging careers — and work even harder — or can society be better structured in a different way. It’s odd that few chose the opportunity to address issues like this, which Bookchin presciently raised forty years ago, on the thread discussing his critique of Marxism.

Posted by: Malooga | Aug 25 2006 21:38 utc | 61

gylangirl, once again I read your post quoting Debs: “The first [problem] is going to be the most difficult to solve … It is of course the mass utilization of women in the workforce….”
You said, “Debs, DO you hear how sexist this sounds?”
I actually agree that it does sound sexist!
My earlier post should have been to jj, who claims all of the Moon is sexist, “sexism is cool here, or if it’s not there is zero indication of that, as it’s quite rampant & uncontested apart from the two of us.”
Well, jj, I am chiming in to give an indication that sexism isn’t cool here … nor should it be.
Once again I find this bunch to be pretty relaxed in our understanding that in the heat of blogging (what a word) it’s easy to mistake what someone else said or meant (like me above) or conversely to express one’s self poorly. Like the sentence above.
Anyway just wanted to follow up to both of you. Keep the baby, Faith!
That’s not meant as a sexist remark either, but it may be funnier to some than others. I mean it as a light-hearted play on words, so, gylangirl and jj, keep the faith!

Posted by: jonku | Aug 25 2006 22:36 utc | 62

Both men and women are “utilized” in a capitalist workforce. That should be obvious — and not in the least intended to demean women, but rather meant to demean capitalist labor practices.
The oil refinery I worked at hired both men and women as operators. Our lives, regardless of sex or gender, were insured for $250,000 each. Sometimes it was cheaper to risk a life or two, rather than “pour” money into expensive maintainence and capital repairs. (I once calculated that over the course of a standard twenty year career as an outside operator, working with extremely dangerous equipment, the risk of being maimed or killed was one in twelve. And this was based upon past actuarial history which I had been able to coax out of the right sources. Needless to say, that public observation ended the intended rosy career path in management which the company foresaw for me. Within the industry, Coastal Oil is nicknamed “Ghostal” for its morbid adherence to the cost-effective commodification of human life — and the deadly results of its actions.)
It is in that respect that all who work for a living are “utilized.” And the same goes for the lack of concern for the health of those who work at desks, often in toxic buildings which are too expensive to remediate, and at high risk for disabling repetitive stress injuries.
But after they are “utilized” members of both sexes should not be surprised to find that they may be easily replaced with a newer, better working, unit.

Posted by: Malooga | Aug 26 2006 0:01 utc | 63

But Malooga, surely you wouldn’t begrudge the lovely diamonds that Leon’s wife wore to the Beach Club for lunch would you??
@jonku, I did not mean to include you in my general despair. (I wrote out a longer response, but can’t decide if I want to post it. Better look it over again when I’m more awake!!)

Posted by: jj | Aug 26 2006 5:31 utc | 64

Funny, how that works… The Bush Boom Party is over meanwhile, the Troitsky Church in St.Petersburg is on fire.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Aug 26 2006 5:41 utc | 65

@Malooga – 2 things: Yr. experience growing up having the basic necessities of a middle-class existence – security, decent house, college – dramatically illustrate the plummeting Am. standard of living, which is often lost. Roughly when you went to college virtually anyone could work their way through UC & still have enough time left for political involvement. Now an in-state undergrad living in the dorm needs to come up w/~$23k/yr. Few nurses could handle that, unless they inherited a house. Of course, the elite made a deliberate decision to make college unaffordable so the students couldn’t afford idealism while in school, nor to take a job anywhere but for the Predators when they got out.
As far as yr. other question, sometimes when friends say dumb shit, one heads off to the bar to pour another drink, check out the CD’s, etc, etc…

Posted by: jj | Aug 26 2006 5:48 utc | 66

@ jj I’ve been off doing stuff so I missed this bit:
Anyway Debs said awhile ago that he’s proud of his hatred of women, after which I stopped reading him, so you shouldn’t be surprised by any sexist crap he churns out.
I most certainly never said any such thing. Bernhard keeps complete archives of what is posted in here so I would interested to see that if you maintain that I did say that which I know I didn’t because that isn’t something I believe, feel or conceal, if you could direct all of us to the post where you reckon I said any such thing.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Aug 26 2006 9:27 utc | 67

@gylangirl I’m sad to see you you misinterpreting what I posted.
There is a great difference in effect on an economy between people who are already in an economy consuming, commencing employment and those who aren’t in it, who then come into it and start working.
Before I go any further I suppose I will have to put in a standard disclaimer of something along the line of “These are observations of effect, not judgements on the rightness or wrongness of whether the causes should have occured” that I had been silly enough to imagine that in the interest of brevity, we could get by leaving out around here.
The point I am trying to make is that when women entered the workforce they increased the family income without there being an equivalent increase in the need for society to produce more of the essentials of life. Now a sane person would imagine that should mean that those families then would have extra money for extras. But that isn’t how a demand market works. When people competing for housing have more money, all that happens is the cost of the houses goes up unless there is some form of regulation to prevent that from happening.
I wasn’t saying that women entering the workforce was a bad thing, just that from a purely economic perspective the family unit had gained very little advantage from having a dual income. There are many other good things that come from this of course especially economic independence for women, but that wasn’t what we were discussing. We were talking about the cost of housing.
“The mass utilisation of women in the workforce” is something that has occurred in the western world in the time I have been on the planet and it isn’t me that has seperated people by gender, it is it is the circumstances which used to exist which seperated people by gender. I was just describing it, not endorsing or condemning the situation.
Jonku actually summed up what I was trying to say rather better than I have here but I thought I had better say somthing myself because I have always respected your point of view Gylandgirl and would not like you to think was being sexist when I wrote that stuff above.
@Jonku I don’t quite follow you. You had a change of heart for some reason and make a second post.
I wrote:
“As far as I can work out there have been three major causes of the increase in house prices. The first is going to be the most difficult to solve in a demand economy and the biggest, cause it probably near doubled the real price from 3 times median income to 6 times median income. It is of course the mass utilization of women in the workforce.”
which you changed to
“”The first [problem] is going to be the most difficult to solve … It is of course the mass utilization of women in the workforce….””
So by changing cause to “(problem)” then leaving all the stuff about the demand economy out, you make it sound as though I had personalised the subject I was discussing and was making a negative observation on an issue rather than just describing it.
If I had an opportunity to rewrite the piece the only change I would feel obliged to make would be to change ‘solve’ to ‘resolve’ so that the line read:
“The first is going to be the most difficult to resolve in a demand economy and the biggest cause, it probably near doubled the real price from 3 times median income to 6 times median income. It is of course the mass utilization of women in the workforce.
There was some garbage up above about work I had done on women’s employment issues which I have pulled out in anger and disgust. I know who I am and normally try not to pay any attention to the whining self appointed victims who lurk about this place.
I wrote this response because I respect Jonku and Gylangirl but now quite frankly I feel dirty.
This is a level of discourse better suited to a bunch of pimply faced ‘trotskyists’

Posted by: Debs is dead | Aug 26 2006 11:07 utc | 68

@jj:
I assume by Leon, you meant Hess, who owned the little racket I worked for. If not, it was a serendipitous remark.
I agree with your second observation about the fall of the middle class; I was trying to point that out — if I had been growing up now we would have been a struggling family, and I would not have had the opportunities I did.
As far as yr. other question, sometimes when friends say dumb shit, one heads off to the bar to pour another drink, check out the CD’s, etc, etc…
I’m not sure who you believe was the one who said something dumb, but one can easily check the evidentiary blog record to see that when I am aware of something dumb I said, I am quick to apologise and move on. In any event, I’m glad to be considered a “virtual” friend: I always enjoy your comments and observations, both here, and when I serendipitously come across them on some other blog. In my “real” life, I never consider someone to be a real friend until we’ve had our first fight and hate each other’s guts, and then overcome that feeling and resolve our differences. Perhaps that ability to resolve diferences — or live peaceably with them — is more of what friendship means to me, than just having someone who always agrees with you.
@Debs is dead:
There is a great difference in effect on an economy between people who are already in an economy consuming, commencing employment and those who aren’t in it, who then come into it and start working.
Since we have been discussing the ways in which standard economic metrics are lies used to justify the games the big guys play, it’s probably time to re-emphasize another lie here: Namely, that non-wage earning women, house husbands, grandparents who care for grandchildren, etc., are not in the economy. They are purposely kept out of the measured economy as a way of marginalizing their contributions, and glorifying the value of wage labor. Of course, this phony method of accounting is a real tragedy, as it intentionally overlooks not only the very real work being done, but the value of a family as a cohesive unit. Instead, privatised services, like nursing homes, or simply a lack of services, are suppossed to pick up the slack. And all of this comes, of course, from two-faced liars who profess to be for “family values!”
This is a level of discourse better suited to a bunch of pimply faced ‘trotskyists’

Perhaps you should try out the Bookchin thread, where childish name calling and low level baiting appears to have overcome the desire for adult discourse for some.

Posted by: Malooga | Aug 26 2006 14:24 utc | 69

@Malooga,
Under the cult of money only factors that can be monetized are assigned “value”. Not wisdom and not love and especially nothing “wild”. That is one reason why the system can’t self-regulate.
——————————-
Meanwhile back to the thread: The NY-Times has some very interesting graphs and statistics on the regional disparities in housing attached to a so-so article by Floyd Norris.

Posted by: Guthman Bey | Aug 26 2006 14:54 utc | 70

“It is of course the mass utilization of women in the workforce….”
Debs, DO you hear how sexist this sounds?”

It ain’t sexist.
It’s the Klondike principle.
The muckers did not end up with the gold. The merchants and the owners of the brothels etc. did.
“Prices rise to absorb the money available”

Posted by: pb | Aug 26 2006 16:22 utc | 71

@ Guthman Bey,
I think Malooga’s point is that there is always monetary value to slave labor. It just is not counted in the GDP.
Part of that insidious process is to discount it as ‘you can’t put a value on love’ when we are really talking about labor that is indeed measurable whenever it is hired out to third parties: a nanny, a bookkeeper, a chef, a chauffeur, a social secretary, a gardener, a tutor, a nurse, etc etc.

Posted by: gylangirl | Aug 26 2006 16:39 utc | 72

Yes there is always monetary value to slave labor, but being a proper parent is not (only) slave labor. The real value is created precisely where the slave labor part ends. It is true though that it isn’t inceivable to devise a system that allocates monetary value to functions like parenting at least to a certain extent, as has been proposed in various schemes in the US and abroad to lower the retirement contribution for “breeders”.
(Of course, if enacted, this would rally jj to fits of fury in the splendid isolation of his hermetically sealed biosphere).

Posted by: Guthman Bey | Aug 26 2006 16:50 utc | 73

What jacked up the price of housing was not the income earned by married women. It was the slide in interest rates. Every time Greenspan dropped the rate, buyers could afford to borrow more for a house. Bidding wars ensued. The rise in housing prices fed the ability to afford more: the down payments on the higher priced houses came from equity gains in prior residences sold.
Blaming the earning power of married women is a scapegoating ruse, just like blaming immigrants is a scapegoating ruse.
The sad fact is that not enough married women earn income to make a difference. The highest price houses are going to the single earner couples. The lower income couples MUST bring in two incomes in ORDER to afford a house. Not the other way around.

Posted by: gylangirl | Aug 26 2006 16:56 utc | 74

if you could direct all of us to the post where you reckon I said any such thing.
this is appropriate if anyone is going to make such sweeping accusations. i don’t want to pick a scab but i don’t think this place is a rampant sexist pit nor have i the impression debs is sexist now or in the past and how can anyone who claims to skip his posts understand the meaning of a sentence taken out of context?
maybe i’m sexist and don’t know it.
“These are observations of effect, not judgements on the rightness or wrongness of whether the causes should have occured”
of course, this should be unspoken.
we live in a demand market driven economy where the price of something has nothing to do with it’s cost and everything to do with how much you can get for it.
this is the gist of why i think the market has been driven sky high. face it, the rich have more than they know what to do with. when you have millions of dollars, why squabble about whether a house is 800k ot 1.2 mil? in the most desirable areas people offer a million for a lot for christs sakes, i literally doesn’t matter.
The final force on the housing market has been us fucking baby boomers who have been buying up houses as an investment.
i don’t think its fair to blame the baby bommers although most of us are by virtue of being middle age during these times. when ordinary people loose faith in the security of their savings people started buying property because it is ‘real’. once they realize it is not real safe that’s when we are going to see the suffering as they race to sell.
aside from the ordinary people rich investors starting shifting large sums to real estate. this impacted the market to give it the final shove. homeowners competeing with rental investors is bad news. for the most part, homeowners desire to stay put, it’s the areas flush w/investors that are going to tank.

Posted by: annie | Aug 26 2006 17:04 utc | 75

Blaming the earning power of married women is a scapegoating ruse, just like blaming immigrants is a scapegoating ruse.
i don’t see how anyone can compare immigrants to women in the workforce. women are 1/2 the population. this isn’t an event that happened in a year or a decade. it happened in a generation. the difference now compared to when my mother was growing up is startling, night and day.
we used to live in a society where it only took one slave wage earner to exist per family. now it takes two.
i don’t understand the overall financial impact of
1/2 the adult population going from non wage workers to wage earners, but my guess is it’s a much greater significance than immigrants,a fair percent of which are women anyway. it’s impact the housing market, i’m not sure what i think about that.

Posted by: annie | Aug 26 2006 17:19 utc | 76

What’s this blaming business anyway? Why does someone have to be blamed for the rise in housing prices? In a capitalist economy there exist reflexive inter-relationships among a multitude of agents large and small. Some of the cause and effect going on is advertent and some is not. What else is new? Caveat Emptor.
This thread is beginning to sound alarmingly like my mother, who is just the kind of woman to blame herself for the rise in US housing prices, though she doesn’t live here and has never bought a house in her life.

Posted by: Guthman Bey | Aug 26 2006 17:47 utc | 77

“The final force on the housing market has been us fucking baby boomers who have been buying up houses as an investment.”
Annie I agree with your comment to that and with Guthman Bey about this “blaming business”. That said, I have previously noted that when times get bad or stressed, the first thing that Americans will do is turn on each other. I see nothing to change my mind about that.
Blame and scapegoating can be and is at its heart pretty non productive because all of us are part of cause and effect loops for a lot of outcomes both positive and negative that we cannot always control or be aware of. Whoever said “you fucking baby boomers” will in turn fuck up something for someone else. We live in an interrelated universe. Rather — the question should be what we can do to mitigate or adjust — not that that is easy. There is always enough blame to go around and around for a long long time.

Posted by: Elie | Aug 26 2006 18:03 utc | 78

I don’t know who’s to blame but it all started with “Rosie the riveter”.

Posted by: pb | Aug 26 2006 18:05 utc | 79

I don’t know who’s to blame but it all started with “Rosie the riveter”.
Poor Rosie got chucked out on her can in 1948. Don’t get me started.

Posted by: gylangirl | Aug 26 2006 22:55 utc | 80

i don’t see how anyone can compare immigrants to women in the workforce. women are 1/2 the population. this isn’t an event that happened in a year or a decade. it happened in a generation. the difference now compared to when my mother was growing up is startling, night and day.
@ annie,
Women may be half the population. But they are NOT half the income-earners. Even in your mother’s day, low wage workers certainly did include women: every upper middle class household “had one” working for them.
It was just the white upper middle class women who didn’t work. What changed is they got uppity and demanded careers, delayed marriage, and even divorced. But the married ones mostly quit the paid workforce once they had kids. [Yes because the income tax structure induces them to do so, another thread topic.]
SO even these ones who bothered to work after college do not stay in the paid workforce continuously. They leave to have kids or sequence between paid and nonpaid work. Very few married upper middle class women with kids were employed long enough to impact income distribution.
The upper middle class women who do stay are mainly the DINKs [double income no kids] or the divorcee single moms. And they are a small proportion of the population of working women, let alone ‘half the population’.
So being ‘half the population’ does not equate to doubling half of household incomes. It is not enough to impact the price of housing.

Posted by: gylangirl | Aug 27 2006 1:45 utc | 81

Once more into the breach: b mentioned the Economist’s Blog up there somewhere in this thread. Flip through the 37 page chart book offered on the linked page and it becomes hard to maintain the theory that the slowdown in housing is killing the “economy”. I think there is simply too much of a desire on the Left for a Bush Morality Play: where absolutely everything turns to shit and the evil Bush gets booed off the stage.
This Business Week article sums up the positives succinctly. I have no ego about this one way or the other, but I fail (for now certainly) to see the compelling empirical evidence for a bust. In fact I see so much negativity even in the financial press that I am tempted to think the return of Goldilocks may be imminent.

Posted by: Guthman Bey | Aug 27 2006 5:44 utc | 82

It was just the white upper middle class women who didn’t work.
really? am i that clueless? you’re right about 1/2 the population, of course many women worked. i always assumed that middle class housewives staying home was standard in the 50’s. the wife not working did not seem as only an upper middle class situation. girls weren’t groomed and educated to enter the workforce as a standard the way they are today. divorce was an anomaly and women were not bred to be responsible for their livelyhood. when women became independent they started entering the workforce prepared to compete for what were traditionally mens jobs. i agree this may not have affected the housing market, but the impact of women progressively entering the workforce in careers typically occupied only by men, gradually expecting and demanding comparable salaries, this is not soley an upper middle class phenomena.
the percentage of female college graduates entering the workforce has altered dramatically. although you practically have to be upper middle class to afford college in todays world that wasn’t the case in the 70’s. my closest women friends from college were middle class, we paid our way thru the state college system w/$300 per semester tuition. the state college system wasn’t full of rich or upper middle class kids.
of course living expenses weren’t what they are today. i still posit the impact of my generation of women on the job market is greater than the influx of immigrants.
i may be wrong.

Posted by: annie | Aug 27 2006 16:24 utc | 83

i have given this a little more thought. i lived in a house w/5 other women, we met freshman year. all of us had part time jobs and we supported ourselves. i cleaned houses and worked at cafes. we all did. this was very normal. our parents didn’t give us any money for college and student loans were typically 1500 per year, this more than covered my rent/utilities. i’ve kept in touch w/ most of these women, they have worked continually thru out their careers making very decent salaries while raising kids. this would be a struggle for middle class kids today.
we also were able to purchase homes. todays kids, frankly, there is no way my son could think about purchasing a house in todays market just by sticking his nose to the grindstone and saving. i purchased my first home w/a deposit saving my tips
as a cocktail waitress, this would be practically impossible today in any metropolitan community.

Posted by: annie | Aug 27 2006 16:44 utc | 84

@ annie,
According to some here, you and your 70’s women friends saving tips to buy your house is exactly what screwed your son’s chances of being able to afford one now.
Glad you disagree with that.

Posted by: gylangirl | Aug 27 2006 18:42 utc | 85

gylangirl, i not only disagree i think its crap. when the economy became so screwed investors started dumping millions into the rental market, wft is supposed to happen when they all change their minds and move on to the next best thing? they are prepared to sell of in droves w/a moments notice. a homeowner can’t or doesn’t want to do that. there is alot more involved in picking up your family and cashing out your equity for a home owner than for an investor. also, these new developements in vegas that are getting dumped for 2/3 the intended price, whats that going to do to all the homeowners around?
there’s also the cute syndrome. where you have the rich getting richer they buy second homes in the outlying desirable areas to get away from it all. once a place becomes popular the newcomer/part timers drive the prices up plus they don’t stick around to help the local economy. there is a little town in arizona i lived in for 6 years. bought a house there for 18k (really) when i moved away i didn’t sell it because i visit there and its beautiful. but…. the town became popular in the last decade, all these people visited, found out you could buy a home for a song and did just that. now almost 1/3 of the town is owned by people who don’t live there, don’t rent their homes and don’t add to the local ecomomy except when they visit a few times a year. it isn’t killing the town (yet) but the last time i visited it was the talk of the town.
also, i don’t understand markets or the way it shifts in general, but i think having the interest rates so unbelievable low was a ruse to screw middle america. the way the banks jumped on it to entice people to enter loan contracts they had no idea were going to backfire on them. that drove the market as much as anything. then there’s the mc mansions. disgusting. you take any desirable area, it becomes so expensive it drives out the locals and anyone who isn’t super rich. this didn’t happen gradually, it happened fast in many areas. over the course of 5 years. this isn’t the immigrants, its the bloody rich. people mowing down middle class areas to build their dream homes. builders don’t want to build for the middle class. contractors building spec homes spend the same on the lot whether they build a mansion or a 1500 sq ft home (which hardly anyone is building anymore) the average home is growing and the smaller sq ft home is now a condo or duplex. since when does the average person need to live in 1000 sq ft per person? families are getting smaller, houses are getting bigger. more energy to keep them a float. so much bs.
in california, i don’t know the exact figures but i read it here, something like 23 counties you can’t afford to live in if you wk a 40 hr week at min wage. so, where tf are those workers supposed to live?
i hired my own nephew to replace some heater shoots under my house, the neighbors cat was hanging out down there attacking the vents for the heat, he charges 35 an hr(handy man, best legal price around). it cost me friggin 700. he did a shitty job closing up the area, the cat came back. after spending a day on my back under the house i hired one of the immigrants at the corner outside the hardware store for 12 per hr.
so, how can he afford to live in the area and work for those wages?? he lives w/5 other workers thats how. white people don’t live crammed up w/9 people living in a house. meanwhile where do the teachers live? this is happening right here in seattle also. it’s happening everywhere. now, it’s not the immigrants that have shoved the prices up, or the women. its the developers and their customers and their banks, many willing to pay anything because they are super rich. and those contractors, 1/2 their workers are illegals. many of those contractors are making out like bandits.
another thing, people who have owned their properties for decades become rich on paper but they don’t have the money do drive around in those cars, buy their kids designer jeans drop 40k on a kitchen remodel (unless they morgage). the temptation is great to sell and move to the outlying area where a 250k house seems cheap, an area where the houses were 150k 5 years ago. its a cycle that just perpetuates.

Posted by: annie | Aug 27 2006 20:21 utc | 86

This whole business of closing down debate on the analysis of the impact of the large scale entry of women into the workforce that has occurred in our lifetimes, on the grounds that such analysis seeks to ‘blame’ women, and is therefore sexist, is so fucking destructive to the economic independence that women were seeking when they fought to get into and remain within the permanent established labour force; that I really want to comment a little more, even though others are probably tired of this type of debate since it has been a recurring theme for decades.
If I can just ask some of the women who have commented in thread and whose point of view I have a great deal of respect for, to suspend disbelief, and try and regard what I am saying as the comment of a someone attempting to study our modern economy objectively, I shall try and explain what I mean.
Firstly what I am about to say is not some sort of weird rearguard action being fought by a bloke trying to chain women back into the kitchen and convince them that housework will set them free. Women have entered the workforce successfully and permanently, therefore we need to be asking ourselves that given this is the case, why is that so many women have gained so little economic benefit?
Gylangirl, I know that you attribute part of this to the exigencies of the US taxation regime, yet as we have discussed here before, many other countries do not punish married women for working by over-taxing them in the way that the amerikan taxation system does, and yet those countries also have a situation where married women have not benefited from their labour to the extent that they should have done.
One of the most apparent injustices has taken place in the property market where as pb put it far more succinctly than I did “Prices rise to absorb the money available”
Talking about this is NOT seeking to ‘blame’ women for this state of affairs. The reason I said it was going to be difficult to ameliorate this cause was precisely because it has to be done in a way which won’t negatively effect women’s status in the labour market.
Now Gylangirl, I just went back into the thread to grab pb’s quote and saw your last post which is unfortunate.
I had decided to wait until I felt a little less heated about some of the names that had been flung around in the thread before I commented further on this issue. So I will say “Please don’t put words/statements in my mouth. If you want to re-iterate something I said stick to what I actually said and not what you reckon I said.”
Anyway back to the issue which is that of the housing market and how it came about that when family incomes increased in real terms once both partners in a marriage were part of the permanent workforce real housing prices increased to the point where a big chunk of the economic advantage that should have resulted was lost.
Yes I know that single women were able to get property in their own name for the first time ever because of the movement toward de- genderfication of the labour market and that is a great achievement, but that hasn’t altered the reality which, is that the majority of owner occupied domestic residences are owned by the traditional family unit.
So, what has happened to the traditional family situation, has had a larger effect on real property prices than the changes to single people’s property owning status. That said though, 20 years ago single women friends, were usually buying larger houses which may not have always been suitable for them, but they were getting much better value for money than they are now that all the average single income will fund is a cardboard ‘suicide shell’ of a coupla hundred square feet in a metropolis filled with these ‘hutches’.
The problem has been on the ‘supply’ side. Demand for quality housing surged when families found themselves with the extra cash that a second income provided, but since this occurred at a time when western economies abandoned all pretense of looking after the ordinary person, no attempt was made by regulatory authorities to free up tracts of land which were generally either held by them or had moved into some former politician’s family trust. There is no need to go into specifics, but apart from Manhattan, which being an island has certain physical boundaries that while they aren’t completely insurmountable, are ‘difficult’, most labour force centres do have huge amounts of spare land close by to them, that were grabbed back in the day, and sat upon by elites or politicians acting on behalf of elites.
The land supply/cost factor is the determinant in housing prices, because although construction and material costs have risen steeply as well, that has been more a case of tagging along behind, jacking up prices which are already so high that every individual increase has been impossible to spot.
Not talking about the impact that the entry of women into the workforce has had on property prices is not doing women a favour, it is contributing to their dis empowerment because unless the situation is examined openly it is difficult to make the changes which must be made. And I guess since this is such an emotive issue for some I need to restate that those changes do not include ‘turning the clock back’ to the time when women didn’t fully participate in the labour market.
Now the reason I didn’t go into the supply side so extensively in my initial post was that we have discussed the deleterious effects of a demand driven economy round MoA for a very long time so I assumed that by stating that the increase in ‘real’ incomes going to families in a demand driven market economy was one of the strongest forces pushing up property prices was sufficient for most people to grasp what I meant.
Similarly when discussing the effect that us fucking baby-boomers’ had on the economy I wasn’t saying anything like “70’s women friends saving tips to buy your house is exactly what screwed your son’s chances of being able to afford one now.” to Annie. I’ll just calm down for a moment and point out that I had imagined that you were better than that Gylangirl. Pulling an intellectually dishonest stunt like re-interpreting my criticism of baby boomers buying second, third, and even fourth houses in the 21st century for the capital gain, as being some sort of criticism of people who bought a property for them and their family as soon as possible on entry to adulthood back in the 70’s and 80’s is pretty fucking disingenuous to say the least.
I am about the only person I know of my age that only owns one home in a labour market centre. Other property holdings I have are a share with (at the time) teen aged or early 20’s friends and family ,in a huge block of land miles from anywhere with no reticulated power or water, but over half a mile of beach frontage. Now that was most certainly not an investment, as the articles of incorporation for the company which bought the land and which each of us then bought a share of, prohibit the land or the R**** B*** Company Limited from engaging in any ‘for profit’ enterprise. This clause has caused the odd ruction over the decades as not everybody stuck to their anti-materialistic beliefs ( that is an understatement of some magnitude).
The fact that what we bought for a few thousand dollars (which we slogged our guts out for, I worked in a fish packing plant 16/7 throughout vacations and 8/7 during the term, as did others) is now worth millions as were are told when harassed from time to time by resort developers, and their 10%ers, is irrelevant. It is impossible to borrow money against the shares thank goodness, and they can only be passed on to someone else with the approval of the other shareholders. So far everyone’s children, most of whom have fond memories of summers at ‘The Bay’ want to keep the arrangement running. Doubtless by the third generation when most of us have long shuffled off, some budding asshole looking for a stake to get him to the table will hire a shark shyster and tear the company memorandum to pieces.
I thought I had better make that declaration before I get to the point which I want to discuss which is that many of us bought properties at a time when the median income/property price ratio was 3:1 whereas now it is about 9:1. For many people my age that has meant that once their children finished their tertiary education and set out to establish themselves, many baby boomers found themselves with a cash flow surplus for the first time ever. Those that still had house payments often had payments on loans raised on pretty low purchase prices from back in the day. Good on them, most deserved it.
However it is the next step which many took that doesn’t sit well. That is that worrying about their retirement, and having lost faith in the securities market, or wanting to ‘diversify’ outside of securities, they began investing directly into the residential property market. This was seen as a ‘sure fire bet’ as “they’re not making any more land” and all the other cliches were trotted out.
When anyone politely pointed out that they were fucking over everyone else’s future because a/ This is a dead money investment, in that it doesn’t increase the productivity or wealth of the community. ( yeah right try that debating point on. Within a second you will be told “how fucking dare you tell me and my …. to endanger their future to the sharks out their ripping off everyone, just because I need to worry about some other bludger getting a job.” They don’t call us the Me Generation for nothing.)
2/ There was no return to the community from their new income stream (make no bones about this. It may be an investment, but with returns frequently in excess of 25% per annum on a few hundred thousand dollars, this is income, substantial income) because where I live there is no capital gains tax on profit from selling domestic residences whether you own one or 1001. Those with a 1001 frequently do so through a ‘family property trust’ which ensures that Ma and Pa Pot get their government funded super-annuation plus access to state funded geriatric residential care in their twilight years. My investment in the failed commune all those years ago will probably keep me out of a ‘retirement home’ but bugger it, the kids can put up with me for a little bit or pour mogadon into my milk or somesuch.
Hell even those with just a couple of others’ family homes have a trust ownership structure. This keeps the lawyers happy and it’s cheaper than taxes although it does nothing for our health or education systems.
There will be no attempt to change this by legislation in NZ as a squizz at the Parliamentarians’ declarations of financial status reveals that out of the 120 MP’s less than ten don’t own a second domestic dwelling.
Now I fully concede that this problem is particularly bad here in NZ, because of our taxation structure but it does exist in one way or another in most other developed nations.
The reasons are understandable, trusting your savings to Ken Lay and his ilk has been a proven non-starter and there are a lot of genuine issues about holding investments in corporations currently profiting from killing Arabs but domestic property investment is a powerful force on domestic property prices.
It is impractical and unfair to expect young people at the start of their economic lives, to compete directly with older established economic units that the baby-boomer, and in a short while generation X, families are.
If people choose to re-interpret any of the above as ‘blame’ that is their issue/foible not mine. The issue is not blame it is about how communities can set about ensuring that young people can buy their house too.
p.s. any typos or whatever are gonna be left to fester. My eyes just don’t cope with these interminable spiels any longer (cheers from the whiners), so if anyone does fine tooth comb this looking for proof of Did’s political unreliability, finds some ambiguity which can be twisted into such proof, tough shit you’ve only proven your vehemence exceeds my patience.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Aug 27 2006 23:05 utc | 87

if i ever make it to NZ can i camp on your beachfront? 😉
thanks for coming back debs. i may be the only one still interested in this thread.i am mulling over all your thoughts but too damn tired to respond. one more room down, 4 to go.

Posted by: annie | Aug 28 2006 1:23 utc | 88

The problem has been on the ‘supply’ side. Demand for quality housing surged when families found themselves with the extra cash that a second income provided
Your words, Debs. This is blame-the-secondary-earner talk.
Why do you think women’s second incomes are more of a supply side “problem” than low interest rates and economic expansion in general? [Oh wait let me guess, do you think the economic expansion is also the fault of married women earning a living?]
News flash: the highest priced homes are still bought by single earner couples. Those prices have got nothing to do with wifey working outside the home – because generally she doesn’t!

Posted by: gylangirl | Aug 28 2006 2:00 utc | 89

My main objection is not your assertion that ‘prices rise to absorb the money available’. My objection is that you ascribe the increase in money available to married women entering the paid workforce. There is no causal relationship between the housing price increase and secondary incomes. That’s like deducing that real wages must have risen over time to create housing demand which is total b.s.
The ‘money available’ pushing demand had more to do with 1) bank and monetary policies making borrowing easier and with 2) tax policies subsidizing real estate investments. There was also 3) local suppression of new housing supply to make the gap between demand and supply even more pronounced.
But to insist that it had something to do with some married women’s secondary incomes is dead wrong. Married women do not make enough money to have such an impact – because women’s salaries still do not match the primary earner’s income; because not enough married women stay in the paid workforce; and as is the case in the United States, secondary income is taxed at higher marginal rates than primary income.
Dual earner couples were not creating the housing price trend. Indeed their incomes never caught up to the higher prices. Instead, they went deeper into debt.

Posted by: gylangirl | Aug 28 2006 2:58 utc | 90

it’s true that when one earner becomes two, the family spends more. consumerism has run rampant. instead of staying in the same affordanle house couple think, why not? they go for more sq ft, upgrades, maybe a second home. they want to ‘experience’ their money. i don’t see this as ‘blame’ just reality. the reality creates the problem. if you have a limited income, you become pregnant and are feeding 3 instead of 2, do you blame the baby. no , of course not, yet it may be the fault of having an the extra person in the household.
i didn’t hear debs ‘blaming’ the situation on more women in the workforce than the other factors. frankly, i am more aware of the effects of interest rates and the investor syndrome (of which i have played my part, w/caveats i won’t bore you with that really do put a different personal spin on my story) than imagining the influx of female workers, but i think the consideration is valid. and i don’t see it as blame as much as a sign of the times. older people w/retirements to worry about got understandably worried about the stock market and saw their equity rising, they felt their money was safe in real estate so we had scores of people entering re investment who previously had little experience beyond their personal property. perhaps they had more to save and invest because there were 2 instead of one. we can look at why w/out the blame label. i am curious what affects(besides all the beneficial obvious advantages of women working) on our society , outside of social, our contribution has made. one would expect inevitable downsides. perhaps its affected the housing market. if it has, i don’t feel at fault(as a woman), nor do i assign blame.
also significant, something we haven’t discussed, is the acceptance of single people as a more normal segment of society. lots of individuals own homes.
we keep talking about women in couples, what about the 1 person per home. i know many of those…

Posted by: annie | Aug 28 2006 3:23 utc | 91

i am curious,does anyone know what percentages of working women are married? certainly all those working women are not secondary earners? i wonder how many women on ths site are secondary earners? and how many of us just support ourselves (and then some).

Posted by: annie | Aug 28 2006 3:30 utc | 92

Jaysus, annie.
Let’s take that bit of logic over to another demographic and see how it sounds.
More black folks have also entered the paid workforce and the housing market. Look what happened since the civil rights act. Instead of staying in the old segregated neighborhoods, they think we’ve got more income now, why not? Not blaming them, just ‘reality’ creating another ‘problem’. Yes they’ve made contributions but there is an inevitable down side……ETC.
NOW can you hear the prejudice?

Posted by: gylangirl | Aug 28 2006 3:37 utc | 93

i see your point gylangirl i just didn’t interpret it the way you did. debs didn’t call it a problem, he called it a cause. whether he is right or wrong is not really the issue at this point in the conversation. i don’t want to bitch about semantics. also, its not a matter of ‘more’ women entering the workforce, its a generation of us.
lets say we emptied out the jails of all the innocent incarcerated black men, and replaced them ALL w/white collar crime perpetrators. would that have an impact on the job market? the housing market. maybe, maybe not, but when you look for causes you aren’t blaming. would it be racist to ask the effects it might have on society?
As far as I can work out there have been three major causes of the increase in house prices. The first is going to be the most difficult to solve in a demand economy and the biggest, cause it probably near doubled the real price from 3 times median income to 6 times median income. It is of course the mass utilization of women in the workforce.
now, compare that to
More women folks have also entered the paid workforce and the housing market. Look what happened since The Equal Pay Act ,Bowe v. Colgate-Palmolive Company,Reed v. Reed,Title IX (Public Law 92-318) of the Education Amendments,Weeks v. Southern Bell,and the civil rights act. Instead of staying in the old security of marriage, they think they’ve got more income now, why not? Not blaming them, just ‘reality’ creating another ‘problem’. Yes they’ve made contributions but there is an inevitable down side……ETC.
now, can you read the difference? some people could even come to a conclusion that NOT thinking the impact of women on the workforce is prejudice.
whether we impacted the housing market, really , i don’t know. but i could ask, how could it not?
take my mother for example.when my fathers business went down the tubes in the 70’s after he made several horrible investments she decided to support the family doing the only thing she she knew how to do. some of my earliest memories are or rollerskating in circles around the empty gutted downstairs while my mother was stripping the wainscoating, painting, plumbing,roof patch, new foundation, you name it i kid you not. pleading my father to take out the loan (as a woman, forget it) she bought her first glorified shed and started remodeling, finding old free sinks at the dump, incoporperating old throw out materials. after the forth one she was able to sell them and carry the notes, allowing other women who normally would not be able to get loans to quailify. as far as i know she never made a killing on a house in her life.
ok, she’s unusual, for back then. did my mother have an impact on the market? is it sexist to say she did, or she didn’t? my first construction job (other than working for myself or my mother) my forman was a woman.
i gotta go, another day of construction. when i look back at my lifes work i ask myself, have i had an impact on the market? nah…. i’m not sexist.

Posted by: annie | Aug 28 2006 14:16 utc | 94

ps, next week, for the first time ever, i am pouring cement countertops!

Posted by: annie | Aug 28 2006 14:23 utc | 95

Brava, annie!

Posted by: beq | Aug 28 2006 14:59 utc | 96

Annie,
You can say that you are not sexist but your comments are. I was replacing YOUR, not Debs, sexist comments with the racist ones.
And Debs DID describe it as a problem, he used the word problem to describe the rise in housing prices. He sees the entry of women into the workforce as a cause of the problem and YOU agree with him. You can say that your postions is not sexist as much as you like but that doesn’t make it neutral.
I know you and Debs don’t like to think of your position as sexist – nobody likes to think that about themselves. But to say that women are the cause of the rise in housing prices is definitely sexist.

Posted by: gylangirl | Aug 28 2006 21:28 utc | 97

whether we impacted the housing market, really , i don’t know. but i could ask, how could it not?
perhaps its affected the housing market. if it has, i don’t feel at fault(as a woman), nor do i assign blame.

gylangirl, really i think you are being extreme when you say He sees the entry of women into the workforce as a cause of the problem and YOU agree with him.
if you really were replacing my comments as you say here
You can say that you are not sexist but your comments are. I was replacing YOUR, not Debs, sexist comments with the racist ones.
perhaps you can do a little cutting and pasting of exactly what i have said that leads you to this conclusion. i am trying to be open here, but you construing meaning w/exageration is wearing a little thin.
just copy and paste my inevitable downside reference, the one you “replaced”.
to say a segment of society made an impact, or affected the market is not agreeing it’s the cause of a problem. the rise of housing prices reflects the demand. the ‘problem’as i see it is how people reacted when those prices went up. the problem is that people borrowed on equity that may not be around for the long haul, the problem is that banks created ‘creative financing’ used to trap people into financial situations over their heads, the problem is that the ecomomy has been gutted and normal people were afraid of stocks, no pensions, enron etc . they scurried to invest in realestate, the problem is that big investors shifted mega bucks into the housing market, the problem is that small affordable single family dwellings all across the country in desirable area got torn down and replaced my mega mansions for the rich permanently forcing regular income people out.
why don’t you back up your accusations w/some cutting and pasting and leave your creative interpretations by the wayside, at least while paraphrasing me. my perceptoion here is that you have a lot invested in being right, and that includes accusing me, and debs of being sexist.
meanwhile it appears you have completely ignored any point i may have made demonstrating how i conceed that women have impacted the market.
since you are the pro at what and what is not sexist, why don’t you tell me what markets women have not impacted. what segment of society has remained untouched by women entering the workforce?

Posted by: annie | Aug 28 2006 23:05 utc | 98

annie,
I am sorry that you don’t get what I am saying. You might consider re-reading the conversation upthread a little more slowly. My re-stating the conversation is a waste of my time, and I suspect, yours too.

Posted by: gylangirl | Aug 29 2006 0:28 utc | 99

gylangirl, you have enough time to call me sexist but not enough to reference it w/my own statement? that’s cherry. i don’t need to re read the conversation to know what i wrote, i too am sorry you don’t get what i’m saying. you were fairly blunt and explict, so i think i read you loud and clear.
Single Women Plunge Into Real Estate
No Longer Waiting For Husbands, Women Are Changing The Housing Market

(CBS) In a trend that is changing the landscape of the real estate market, single women are becoming homeowners at a rate never seen before.
It’s a trend that is reversing the traditional pattern, in which women wait to get married before taking the plunge into the housing market.
Mariela Azcuy is 29 years old and single. Three months ago, she gave up her rented apartment in New York City and bought her very own one bedroom. She needed a five-year adjustable rate and 30-year fixed rate mortgage to afford it. But the financial burden doesn’t scare her. She sees it as an accomplishment.
“It makes me think I made a smart financial decision and I’m on my way to making other smart financial decisions in my future,” Azcuy said. “It’s one of the most satisfying things I’ve ever done.”
And Azcuy is in good company. Judith Lief is a realtor in New York City and says about 30 percent of her clients are single women, while few are single men.
“It’s a ratio of about five to one, single women to single men looking (for homes),” she says.
The Early Show investigated the trend Monday morning, with the help of Vera Gibbons, special correspondent for Kiplinger’s Personal Finance magazine.
She said that last year, 1.5 million homes were sold to single women.
“Nearly twice as many homes as were sold to single men,” she told co-anchor Rene Syler. And there’s “no sign of this trend slowing down,” she says. “Fannie Mae is estimating by 2010 as many as 31 million single women will be homeowners. That accounts for 28 percent of all U.S. households.”
…. .
Another factor is the social change that comes from women gaining financial clout in the workforce.
“Women are much more independent today,” Gibbons told Syler. “We are marrying later, that is, if we choose to marry at all. We are much less reliant on the man to be the provider because we have our own money, more money than ever because we are college educated. We are in the work force.”
“For a single woman, in particular, it provides us with this huge sense of accomplishment, personal security, financial security, it’s a big thing. But it’s a good thing,” she said.


Single Women Become
A Force in Home-Buying

Ms. Goldman is part of a wave of single women who aren’t waiting for marriage to settle down and start nesting. Armed with buying power and investment prowess, they are buying condos, co-ops, townhouses and single-family homes in record numbers.
The percentage of women home buyers had held steady in a range of 15% to 17% since about 1993, but jumped to 21% in 2003. It’s a “substantial increase, especially when you consider that the overall number of home sales also jumped from five million to six million,” says Cathy Whatley, immediate past president of the National Association of Realtors, which conducts biannual surveys of the home-buying market.
Why Wait?
This jump makes single women the second-biggest category of buyers, says Ms. Whatley, behind married couples, who make up 59% of homebuyers, but well ahead of single men, who make up only 11%.
Ms. Whatley and other real-estate analysts cite women’s delayed plans for marriage, greater financial savvy and a better home-buying market as factors contributing most significantly to the trend, although high divorce rates also add to the single-woman homeowner population.
“Women are not seeing marriage as a first step to buying a home, and they are marrying later,” says Rachel Drew, research specialist for the Harvard Joint Center for Housing Studies. She says that women are not necessarily buying at younger ages, but that they are taking the real-estate plunge before the relationship leap.
According to the U.S. Census, the median marrying age in 2000 was 25.1, a considerable increase when compared with 20.8 in 1970, says Ms. Drew, who has been studying the rise in unmarried female homeowners. More significantly, she says, the prime years for first-time home buyers are between ages 30 and 35, the years when many professional women are beginning to hit their stride and have the financial ability to buy a home. “Education and income have increased for women, and they feel like they’re in a better position to buy a home,” she says.
Women’s evolving role in the work force also has given them more financial agility, says Pam Liebman, president and chief executive officer of The Corcoran Group in New York. “They are a significant part of the work force, and they’re staying a significant part of the work force. Women have always been primarily responsible for home-buying decisions, whether they’re buying alone or with someone. Now, they are just more financially responsible,” says Ms. Liebman, whose clientele of single women has increased sharply over the past few years.
Ms. Liebman says that much of her company’s outreach to the women’s market happens through women’s professional groups. Significantly, more women are shopping in the upper price ranges alongside families and professionally established men, and more women are buying second homes on their own.
“We’re not just marrying any guy who comes along. It’s this sense of empowerment, because you’re relying on yourself, and there’s not this concept of having to be married first,” says Pamela Emery, a Realtor at Jameson Realty in Chicago. Ms. Emery bought her first condominium in 1997 for $140,000. She sold it for $241,000 in 2002 and bought a two-bedroom duplex in a mixed-income development and subsequently became involved in the real-estate business, earning her license earlier in the year.
Long-Term Investments
She says that five of her six current clients are single women in their 30s looking for first homes, trade-up properties and investment opportunities. “Once you own something in real estate, it draws you into more financial planning,” she says.
Ms. Whatley says many women are buying their first home as a residence and then building real estate into their long-term investment strategies.
In addition to women who have never married, divorced and widowed women are also a growing segment of the market, says Ms. Whatley. “Where there was hesitancy before, where a divorced woman may not have felt she could purchase a home on her own, there is now a level of confidence that we haven’t seen before,” she says.
But even if they are making high incomes and buying second homes or investment properties, single women in the upper price ranges still endure more scrutiny for their lifestyle choices than single men, brokers say.
“There’s this sense of disbelief that this highly successful, unmarried woman, who is not unhappy, by the way, wants a big apartment,” says Lisa Lippman, a broker and senior vice president with The Corcoran Group in New York whose clients are shopping in the $1.5 million to $6 million range.
She says that when she takes single-women clients to see large apartments, the sellers always want to hear about a husband or they ask how many children she has.
“It’s a double standard. If I have a single man, an investment banker, who wants to see the apartment, they are not surprised. But if it’s a woman, it’s seen differently,” she says.

so, you think i should re read a little more slowly, and that i am sexist. i think you are lucky i’m not in a mood to chew you a new one. i’ll forgive you in the morning, right now i’m stewing in your hypocrisy.

Posted by: annie | Aug 29 2006 3:40 utc | 100