Billmon:
II. Another Atrocity
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July 29, 2006
WB: Unsound Methods +
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I have a hard time to compare the direct, conscience targeting of a clearly marked red cross car, with a random hit by a weapon with a quite high probablity of error on a hospital.
I talked with Nassrallah about this (not really) and his answer was: “Give me a bunch of F16s, JDAMs, Apaches and Hellfire and we will immediately stop firing Katjushas.”
Not disputing anything said, but if there is mandatory conscription to the armed forces in Israel, doesn’t that make anything but old people’s homes a legitimate target?????
Just trying to frame the debate the way the neocons/likudnites do it?
Posted by: Cloned Poster | Jul 29 2006 7:30 utc | 2
A very interesting take from a SPIEGEL correspondent in Israel: THE MIDEAST PR WAR – News on a Platter
The phone rings at 9 a.m. — right on time. “Hello, this is the Government Press Office,” pipes a woman’s voice. “What are you planning to do today? Do you need an idea?” And then the suggestions just keep coming — interview partners; a tour to the houses in Haifa that were struck by Katyusha rockets, complete with victim interviews. An expert will come along too, one who explains the nature of the rockets — “in clean sound bites, if you want.”
There’s more on the plate. “The highlight is still to come,” says the lady from Israel’s press office, the GPO. “We can offer an interview in Naharya with the parents of the kidnapped soldiers,” she says. She explains that the parents of Ehud Goldwasser, who has been held by Hezbollah since July 12, are waiting in a hotel. An interpreter? No need. “They speak good English, don’t worry.”
Many journalists come along, most of them by GPO bus. About 15 camera teams have set up their equipment. Twenty radio and print journalists are enjoying their coffee and the specially prepared sandwiches. Then the parents arrive. The father self-consciously steps up to the microphone. The desk in front of him bristles with microphones — as if a politician were giving a press conference. He’s sweating slightly; the veins on his forehead are bulging.
…
Still, Israel’s support and supervision of foreign journalists seems downright excessive. As soon as you’ve received your press credentials from the GPO, you’re bombarded with e-mails and phone calls. When covering other crisis regions, German reporters often have to make an effort to be extra nice and polite and have to search out interviewees and contacts themselves. Not here. In Israel, reporters are on an all-inclusive package trip — and are well looked after.
Well-thought-out story ideas including transportation, lunch and selected military experts — all these things are offered without ever having to be asked for. Many journalists happily accept the offer. For days, images of Israeli artillery units flickered on TV screens the world over — one reason of course being that the PR warriors always took the camera teams to the frontlines around sunset. The soft, warm twilight is favored by camera men and photographers.
An e-mail that arrived on Wednesday is a good example. It offers no less than 11 news stories. The Israeli refugees, perhaps. Or the problems with Arab Israelis? A feature about how an entire village has been dispersed across Israel? A report on people who had to leave their houses? Former hostages? Or a village that has been shot at for decades? It’s all available.
…
Also the other side from a SPIEGEL correspondent in Lebanon: HEZBOLLAH AND THE PRESS – Letting the Images Speak for Themselves
Even if a certain sense of routine has developed after two weeks of de facto war — Hezbollah is hardly pro-active in its relations with the foreign press, represented in Beirut by dozens of foreign reporters. There’s no real method to be discerned behind the militia’s public relations work. While some camera teams that tried to film in Dahieyeh on their own were immediately pressured to leave the neighborhood — a Hezbollah stronghold in southern Beirut — and escorted north by men on motor scooters, other journalists were able to move as freely as they like. The journalist’s ID issued by the Lebanese Interior Ministry is scrupulously checked at some street crossings — at others, however, reporters are waved through before documents can even be produced.
And even if reporters have been led repeatedly through Dahieyeh during the past days, the tours seem somewhat improvised. Just as in southern Lebanon, there are no pictures of Hezbollah militants or positions — just endless images showing the horrors suffered by the civilian population. The pictures that scream at pedestrians from the front pages of the Arab newspapers in the mornings are so brutal and upsetting they don’t require any extra spin. Let the images speak for themselves, let the refugees tell their stories — that seems to be Hezbollah’s strategy
…
Before Hussein Nabulsi dismisses the group of journalists for today, the TV reporters get a propaganda classic for their cameras after all. A truck painted in loud colors drives by with combative slogans and anti-Israeli songs thundering from its PA system. No one is there to hear these slogans and songs apart from the reporters. No one lives in these streets anymore.
As the shells fall around them, Hizbullah men await the Israelis
“Patience is our main virtue, we can wait for days, weeks, months before we attack. The Israelis are always impatient in battle and in strategy,” says the cleric, Sayed Ali, who claims to be a descendant of the prophet. “I know them very well.”
…
“We stay put and we don’t move till we get our orders, and this is why we are not like any other militia. A militiaman will fire whenever he likes at whatever he likes,” explains one of the men, who says he has been involved in firing Katyusha rockets into northern Israel. “We have specific orders. Even when we fire rockets we know when and where [to fire] and each of the men manning the launchers runs to a specific hiding place after firing the rockets.”
…
Another of the men, who says he is Sayed Ali’s brother, explains how Hizbullah teaches its fighters patience: “During our training we spend days in empty buildings without talking to anyone or doing anything. They tell me go and sit in that building, and I go and sit there and wait.”
…
Ali, the commander of Hizbullah in his village, and his men are part of the active force, and their orders are to wait for further orders. “Hizbullah hasn’t even mobilised all its active fighters, and the Israelis are calling their reserve units,” he said.
…
“Our strategy is to hit the commandos and the Golani units like we did in Bint Jbeil,” Ali says. “Those are their best units. If they can’t do anything, the morale of the reserve units will sink.”
…
Despite Israel’s claims to have inflicted heavy losses on Hizbullah, Ali insists his side is in a strong position. “Things are going very well now, whatever happens we are winning. If they keep bombing us we will stay in the shelters, and with each bomb more people support the resistance. If they invade they will repeat the miserable fate they had in 1982, and if they hold one square foot they will give the Islamic resistance all the legitimacy. If they want to kill Hizbullah they have to kill every Shia in the south of Lebanon.”
And even when the battle with the Israelis is over, he adds menacingly, Hizbullah will have other battles to fight. “The real battle is after the end of this war. We will have to settle score with the Lebanese politicians. We also have the best security and intelligence apparatus in this country, and we can reach any of those people who are speaking against us now. Let’s finish with the Israelis and then we will settle scores later.”
There’s no fairness or equivalency between the two sides in quality nor in quantity of firepower.
As to targeting, the best that Hezbollah can do is approximate direction and distance. Given limited time to target before being blown out by better “Israeli” technology, they probably are not getting the best out of their low tech/low yield missiles anyway. There is a fundamental imbalance that is disturbing in real distruction and casualties. It is downright ugly.
Then you get these stupid arguments about who did what first as if it were a kids fight. The only hope is that Hezbollah run out of their missiles and announce cease fire so that Israel would have to be embarrassed to follow suit.
Posted by: YY | Jul 29 2006 10:45 utc | 6
It’s a widely accepted idea that an Israeli who returns home, even after a short period of time, feels as if he has come to another country. But the opposite is the case: He returns to the same situation, the same problems, the same thought patterns and mainly, the same solutions. Apparently, we did not learn a thing from the first Lebanon War or from the American defeat in Iraq. If the definition of Israel’s strategic goal given by the head of Military Intelligence at the beginning of the week reflects the government’s position, we are in big trouble.
If Israel really did embark on the war in order to force Lebanon to impose its authority on the south, which is in Hezbollah’s hands – or in other words, to force the Lebanese government to begin a civil war in the service of Israel – that is a sign that it is dominated by thinking even more primitive than the thinking that led Ariel Sharon to Beirut about a quarter of a century ago.
But this time, we have exacerbated the problem: At the beginning of the third week of fighting, in spite of the determination and courage of the attacking soldiers, the war seems only to be beginning. That is why we should achieve a cease-fire before the campaign gets out of control, claims victims in vain and, in the long run, even turns into a strategic failure. In the more distant future, it will be necessary to carry out a fundamental structural reform of the government’s work procedures and to examine its dependence on the Israel Defense Forces’ General Staff. These are truths that are not pleasant to voice at this time, but that is the reality, and we are obliged to confront it.
Posted by: Cloned Poster | Jul 29 2006 14:13 utc | 7
i think if it was for the israelis to stop – they would – because they are making both fools & criminals of themselves
but they’re not running the shop
the empire has ordered – syria iran – full steam ahead
& of course the brave democrats will allow bolton to remain at the un
welcome to the war
Posted by: r’giap | Jul 29 2006 14:44 utc | 8
Retreat:
IDF leaves Bint Jbail; 6 soldiers hurt in clashes with Hezbollah
Israel Defense Forces troops pulled out of the southern Lebanon town of Bint Jbail on Saturday afternoon, after clashes with Hezbollah left six soldiers wounded and some 26 guerillas dead.
Armored Corps soldiers were still operating around the town, and were in control of certain areas.
…
During the day’s fighting, a joint force of Paratroopers and soldiers from the Golani Brigade seized Hezbollah equipment including five anti-tank missiles, 30 hand grenades, 41 clips and 10 bullet proof vests.
The retreat from Bint Jbail will be seen as a catastrophy by many Israeli.
Nassrallah did hold a speech there in 2000 just when the last soldier from the IDF was withdrawn from Lebanon. The IDF was not able to takje and hold the town and lost some 10 men there. The could have taken it of course but it would have cost a hundred soldiers and they don´t have the stomach to put that in for an essentially symbolic peace of rubble that they will have to give back eventually too.
The “elite” soldiers of the Golan Birgade who had the task to get the town stumbled into a trap. When some of them were hit, the outher IDF soldiers tried and fought to get their bodies out. This resulted in even more dead Israeli. A stupid thing to do from any armies point but the IDF and to some degree the US marines. Why care for dead bodies?
Hezbollah also managed to shot down a helicopter that was supposed to relief those troops.
This is of course the end for Halutz, the IDF chief. Everything that could go wrong in his operation did go wrong. Oh, the IAF performed good. Lots of bombs on Lebanon but to what end?
I wonder if the Israeli will stop the shit now. Nassrallah just made a speech and said the Israeli want a chease fire, but the US is holding them back.
Olmert, after seeing his mistake to follow Halutz’ plan from the start, was smart enough to not reoccupy Lebanon. Is he smart enough to withstand Bush’s pressure to escalate the war?
Rice just landed in israel. We may know pretty soon if he breaks. If he does so, we are in deep shit.
Wow. They captured some grenades! That ought to show the bastards.
I’m having some SERIOUS Vietnam flashbacks here.
“During the day’s fighting, a joint force of Paratroopers and soldiers from the 101st Airborne and Americal Divisions seized Viet Cong equipment including five anti-tank missiles, 30 hand grenades, 41 clips and 10 bullet proof vests. In Saigon, Gen. Westmoreland pronounced the operation a ‘stunning success.'”
Posted by: billmon | Jul 29 2006 16:42 utc | 11
“I wonder if the Israeli will stop the shit now. Nassrallah just made a speech and said the Israeli want a chease fire, but the US is holding them back.”
The world turned upside down. What’s next? Madonna preaching chastity to an oversexed Queen Elizabeth?
Posted by: Billmon | Jul 29 2006 16:47 utc | 12
Proportionality
I was just listening to This American Life on NPR and one of the stories was about a girl named Sarah York, who at the age of 11 became pen pals with Manuel Noriega and visited Panama twice in ’88 and ’89 on Noriega’s dime.
Part of the report was the reminder to me of the Panama Invasion. Remember Operation Just Cause?
I do. And I am reminded of one of the best documentaries I have ever seen, The Panama Deception. It exposed Bush 41 lies about the invasion, where they claimed first only 200 civilian casualties, then revised the number to 500. However the number most independent experts believe is closer to 3000.
So lets review, shall we? (1) Panama never attacked the USA and was never a threat, (2) The US invaded because Bush needed a new boogieman after Gaddafi and before Saddam, (3) The US government killed about 3000 innocent civilians, droping bombs and firing artillery on residential apartment buildings, (4) They wanted to clip Noriega, but he was smart enough to hide-out in the Vatican Embassy, and (5) The result was to convict Noriega of suspicious drug charges to sit in a jail in Miami for 40 years and a U.S. installed government.
This was truly disproportionate and meaningless murder for nothing but politics. And people wonder where Dubya gets his insensitivity to the loss of human life? And people want Bush I to act as a peace negotiator in the current conflict? And then of course there is mummy, famous for her trademark hits, “…and so many of the people in the arenas here, you know, were underprivileged anyway. This is working very well for them” (referring to the Katrina evacuees living the Astrodome) and “Why should we hear about body bags and deaths? It’s not relevant. So why should I waste my beautiful mind on something like that?” (refering to the War on Iraq). What a family. They’re effin’ sociopaths.
Addendum: From the Annals of Those Who Never Learn
According to Wikipedia,
One notorious after-effect of the invasion was nearly two weeks of widespread looting and lawlessness, a contingency which the United States military apparently had not anticipated.
Sound familiar? They’re talking about Panama, not Iraq.
Posted by: Bubb Rubb | Jul 29 2006 16:52 utc | 13
Proportionality
I was just listening to This American Life on NPR and one of the stories was about a girl named Sarah York, who at the age of 11 became pen pals with Manuel Noriega and visited Panama twice in ’88 and ’89 on Noriega’s dime.
Part of the report was the reminder to me of the Panama Invasion. Remember Operation Just Cause?
I do. And I am reminded of one of the best documentaries I have ever seen, The Panama Deception. It exposed Bush 41 lies about the invasion, where they claimed first only 200 civilian casualties, then revised the number to 500. However the number most independent experts believe is closer to 3000.
So lets review, shall we? (1) Panama never attacked the USA and was never a threat, (2) The US invaded because Bush needed a new boogieman after Gaddafi and before Saddam, (3) The US government killed about 3000 innocent civilians, droping bombs and firing artillery on residential apartment buildings, (4) They wanted to clip Noriega, but he was smart enough to hide-out in the Vatican Embassy, and (5) The result was to convict Noriega of suspicious drug charges to sit in a jail in Miami for 40 years and a U.S. installed government.
This was truly disproportionate and meaningless murder for nothing but politics. And people wonder where Dubya gets his insensitivity to the loss of human life? And people want Bush I to act as a peace negotiator in the current conflict? And then of course there is mummy, famous for her trademark hits, “…and so many of the people in the arenas here, you know, were underprivileged anyway. This is working very well for them” (referring to the Katrina evacuees living the Astrodome) and “Why should we hear about body bags and deaths? It’s not relevant. So why should I waste my beautiful mind on something like that?” (refering to the War on Iraq). What a family. They’re effin’ sociopaths.
Addendum: From the Annals of Those Who Never Learn
According to Wikipedia,
One notorious after-effect of the invasion was nearly two weeks of widespread looting and lawlessness, a contingency which the United States military apparently had not anticipated.
Sound familiar? They’re talking about Panama, not Iraq.
Posted by: Bubb Rubb | Jul 29 2006 16:56 utc | 14
It’ll be lots o’ fun to see them spin Condi as the peacemaker. For hers is the kingdom of heaven.
Posted by: biklett | Jul 29 2006 16:59 utc | 16
billmon
wouldn’t speak too soon. sky intersperses its ‘coverage’ of the war with their excitement over madonna’s new video & her youthfullness – they are i imagine masters of moral equivalence
Posted by: r’giap | Jul 29 2006 17:51 utc | 17
b
“The retreat from Bint Jbail will be seen as a catastrophy by many Israeli.”
could you elaborate b – for you is there a connection with the bombing tonight of the main route to damascus 1 km from syrian border
it is interesting thaton all these media – not one, not one wil mention that word, retreat
on the contrary it is presented as another example of the wily thinking of the i d f
Posted by: r’giap | Jul 29 2006 18:11 utc | 18
Samedi 29 juillet 2006
La bataille de Bint Jbeil, racontée par des parachutistes israéliens
Matan, soldat israélien de 21 ans, est arrivé samedi à Avivim, village frontalier du nord d’Israël, en provenance du Liban. Quand il parle des miliciens du Hezbollah, il dit les “combattants”. Un de ses camarades confie: “Ils savent ce qu’ils font et c’est dur”.L’événement
Comme eux, des centaines de parachutistes rentrés samedi du Liban sud où ils se sont battus pendant une semaine contre Hezbollah, ont appris à ne plus sous-estimer cet ennemi.
Samedi matin, plusieurs centaines de soldats sont rentrés en Israël, suivis de blindés.
Et l’armée israélienne a annoncé avoir retiré ses forces de Bint Jbeil, après sept jours de durs combats.
“L’armée s’est retirée de la localité conformément au plan initial qui ne prévoyait pas son occupation mais garde le contrôle des abords”, a indiqué à l’AFP une porte-parole.
Matan, le visage encore recouvert de la peinture noire et verte de camouflage des soldats israéliens, était depuis samedi dernier dans les secteur de Maroun al-Ras et Bint Jbeil, places fortes de la milice chiite au centre du Liban sud.
Un de ses compagnons, Jonathan, qui assure n’avoir dormi que sept heures et n’avoir pas mangé les deux premiers jours, évoque lui aussi le harcèlement de la guérilla: “Ils tirent et vous ne savez pas d’où ça vient”.
“Nous ne les voyons pas. Ils se cachent dans les maisons”, témoigne Matan ajoutant ne les avoir vus de près que “morts”.
D’autres disent les avoir aperçus vivants, vêtus de treillis zébrés “à l’américaine” ou kaki “à l’israélienne” ou encore “déguisés en civils”.
Selon Jonathan, pendant toute cette semaine, les troupes israéliennes ont privilégié les déplacements de nuit, car elles disposent d’équipements de vision nocturne, contrairement au Hezbollah.
Le jour, elles ont rencontré une résistance féroce, y compris vendredi en fin d’après-midi. Les affrontements semblent, selon tous les témoignages, avoir par moment opposé soldats et combattants “maison par maison”, le tout sous les bombes israéliennes, les obus de mortiers et tirs de roquettes RPG et katioucha du Hezbollah.
Samedi, “nous sommes partis à trois heures du matin et nous n’arrivons que maintenant”, raconte un militaire en sueur, alors qu’il est déjà 07h00 et que la ville libanaise n’est qu’à 5 km.
Le soldat est invité à se taire par un officier qui lui rappelle qu’il est interdit de parler à la presse.
D’autres, tout en désarmant leurs fusils d’assaut en contrebas d’une colline menant à Maroun al-Ras, complètent, un peu plus tard, son récit.
“Hier soir, nous avons eu douze heures d’affrontements. Un groupe de miliciens nous a attaqués. Ils ont tenté de kidnapper des soldats”, affirme Avinoam, capitaine de 26 ans, fier de n’avoir qu’un blessé parmi les 100 hommes dont il a la charge.
Selon Jonathan, le Hezbollah cherche par tous les moyens à enlever d’autres soldats. “Ils sont suicidaires. Ils courent vers l’entrée d’une maison (où se trouvent des soldats israéliens, ndlr) pendant que d’autres tirent et tentent de s’emparer d’un soldat sans le tuer pour pouvoir l’emmener”.
L’armée israélienne affirme que ses soldats ont abattu dans les dernières 24 heures 26 combattants du Hezbollah. Sept de ses soldats, dont un a été ramené samedi par ses compagnons sur une civière, ont été blessés.
Avinoam, lui, explique que l’armée “ne veut pas occuper le Liban”, mais que ses hommes devront y revenir régulièrement: “Nous avons encore beaucoup de boulot”.
La ville de Bint Jbeil est déserte, selon Jonathan, qui dit avoir vu des dizaines de portraits de Hassan Nasrallah, le leader du Hezbollah, dans les maisons visitées, surtout dans les bâtisses cossues
source : afp
Posted by: r’giap | Jul 29 2006 18:20 utc | 19
The official – i.e. bruited in the media – coming of age, or acceptance of, targeting ambulances occurred when persons unknown attacked the Red Cross Station in Baghdad, in Oct. 2003.
The Red Cross was attacked by an ambulance – yes with a red cross on it, though that is not reported in the links.
There were many news articles about it, here are just two, certainly not the best….:
Link
Link
Before that, in the mainstream media, there were reports, given out by the Israelis, of bombs in Palestian ambulances. It appears original articles are gone – after a very brief search – anyway here is a partisan pro-Isr. round up for those who might be interested:
Link
Posted by: Noirette | Jul 29 2006 18:25 utc | 20
it it my absence of habitude in watching cable – or is it true than when they are not presenting triumphalist reports from the idf – they scale down the coverage
or is it that the deaths of arab is too boring for their publics
Posted by: r’giap | Jul 29 2006 18:29 utc | 21
The retreat from Bint Jbail is in anticipation of the coming carpet bombing of the town. Israeli are hell bent on flatenning South Lebanon and this will be the first setp. If Israel has to withdraw a blood stump, given Condi’s peace mission , then the bombing is likely to start in a day or two.
Max
Posted by: Max Andersen | Jul 29 2006 20:02 utc | 22
Holy Crap
According to WaPo Blogger
In the gruesome arithmetic of war, the actual carnage on a battlefield dominated by civilian areas, given Israel’s level of effort — 3,000 attack sorties and about 30,000 artillery rounds fired against about 1,000 targets — probably suggests to Israeli generals and government leaders that their campaign is “succeeding” in minimizing civilian harm.
I personally believe that these numbers are probably lower than the actual numbers. Unbelievable.
Posted by: Bubb Rubb | Jul 30 2006 0:15 utc | 23
U.N. peacekeepers injured by Israeli airstrike
BEIRUT, Lebanon – Two Indian soldiers with the U.N. peacekeeping force in southern Lebanon were wounded and their observation post damaged by an Israeli airstrike on Saturday, a U.N. spokesman said.
Milos Strugar, spokesman for the UNIFL force, said the two had been evacuated to a hospital. He said the observation post inside their position had been damaged.
Last week, an Israeli air raid killed four U.N. observers, an attack that U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan said was “apparently deliberate.” Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert expressed his sorrow and ordered a probe but said the U.N. position was not targeted intentionally.
Posted by: John Francis Lee | Jul 30 2006 1:02 utc | 24
Israel’s Secret War: The Humanitarian Disaster Unfolding in Palestine
A 12-year-old boy dead on a stretcher. A mother in shock and disbelief after her son was shot dead for standing on their roof. A phone rings and a voice in broken Arabic orders residents to abandon their home on pain of death.
Those are snapshots of a day in Gaza where Israel is waging a hidden war, as the world looks the other way, focusing on Lebanon.
Posted by: John Francis Lee | Jul 30 2006 1:04 utc | 25
Perhaps this is old news already, but it needs remembering that he said this
What if the tactical mistake we made in Iraq was that we didn’t kill enough Sunnis in the early going to intimidate them and make them so afraid of us they would go along with anything? Wasn’t the survival of Sunni men between the ages of 15 and 35 the reason there was an insurgency and the basic cause of the sectarian violence now?
If you can’t imagine George W. Bush issuing such an order, is there any American leader you could imagine doing so?
And if America can’t do it, can Israel? Could Israel – even hardy, strong, universally conscripted Israel – possibly stomach the bloodshed that would accompany the total destruction of Hezbollah?
disgusting, the sheer murder he creams himself over. how can anyone stand to touch him?
Posted by: citizen | Jul 30 2006 1:27 utc | 26
Billmon, I just saw the latest post – the parody of the NYtimes.
Oh my god, but that is HILARIOUS!!! and so true.
f*cking brilliant.
Posted by: Diana | Jul 30 2006 3:33 utc | 27