Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
July 30, 2006
WB: The Show Must Go On

Billmon:

There is, however, a big risk, which is that Sheikh Nasrallah, the Hizbullah leader, will soon feel compelled by pressure from his own clueless hotheads to unleash the Tel Aviv rockets. This would force Israel to respond with some sort of savage escalation, and since the only available instrument is pure terror bombing [unless Jerusalem wants to take the war to downtown Damascus] the civilian death toll would probably soar even higher.

Welcome to the "new" Middle East — the geopolitical equivalent of the "new" Coke. The recipe may be different, but it still tastes like blood.

The Show Must Go On

Comments

I have been an avid reader of Billmon for a year now; Am a big fan.
Every once in a while I would like to email him, but I have yet to find his email address. If someone has it, could you please email it to me?
miguel@ximian.com

Posted by: Miguel de Icaza | Jul 30 2006 19:17 utc | 1

as far as i understand, miguel, the privacy of billmon is respected here tho sometimes he will make a post here with his email adress – but normally most queries, interrogations & arguments with him are done here at this forum
& to cite macbeth again re this post by billmon tommorrow, tommorrow, tommorrow

Posted by: r’giap | Jul 30 2006 19:23 utc | 2

Was the status quo ante bellum so awful? Apparently so.
None of the warring factions could stand it, so they went for violent change. And here we are, dead babies all over the street.
Today or tomorrow the Security Council will pass a unanimous resolution calling for an unconditional ceasefire. John Bolton will veto it.
The neocons camping out in our White House don’t accept that America can’t successfully force regime change on any more Middle Eastern nations. In their forward thinking minds, we are just a few weeks of creative chaos from a magically transformed land of peace and prosperity, harmony and healthy bottom lines.
If everybody will just join America, everything will be wonderful in short order.
Well, I’ve really only asked for one thing in life, and that is to be obeyed.
I ain’t gettin’ it.
Neither is America.
I fear all we have done is awaken a sleeping giant.

Posted by: Antifa | Jul 30 2006 19:28 utc | 3

Billmon:“Which almost certainly means the killing will go on — and on and on and on — until the Israelis finally feel they saved enough face…”
Huh? More killing innocents to save face by a supposedly military victory? I just don’t get it.

Posted by: Rick Happ | Jul 30 2006 19:29 utc | 4

& just a little point about the ‘show’
it seems the idf wants it both ways – the weapons are capable of reading the second paragraph of the article in the le monde that the terrorist is reading & so target yet at the same time they want us to believe that these very same deciders, generals, & weapons have accidents
tho they deeply love the people of lebanon & their dear prime minister & if truth be told thy are doing it for them as marc regev continually reminds us

Posted by: r’giap | Jul 30 2006 19:32 utc | 5

Miguel,
try billmon@billmon.org

Posted by: dan of steele | Jul 30 2006 19:34 utc | 6

Israel backed by army of cyber-soldiers
From Yonit Farago in Jerusalem
WHILE Israel fights Hezbollah with tanks and aircraft, its supporters are campaigning on the internet.
Israel’s Government has thrown its weight behind efforts by supporters to counter what it believes to be negative bias and a tide of pro-Arab propaganda. The Foreign Ministry has ordered trainee diplomats to track websites and chatrooms so that networks of US and European groups with hundreds of thousands of Jewish activists can place supportive messages.
In the past week nearly 5,000 members of the World Union of Jewish Students (WUJS) have downloaded special “megaphone” software that alerts them to anti-Israeli chatrooms or internet polls to enable them to post contrary viewpoints. A student team in Jerusalem combs the web in a host of different languages to flag the sites so that those who have signed up can influence an opinion survey or the course of a debate.
Jonny Cline, of the international student group, said that Jewish students and youth groups with their understanding of the web environment were ideally placed to present another side to the debate.
“We’re saying to these people that if Israel is being bashed, don’t ignore it, change it,” Mr Cline said. “A poll like CNN’s takes just a few seconds to vote in, but if thousands take part the outcome will be changed. What’s vital is that the international face of the conflict is balanced.”
Doron Barkat, 29, in Jerusalem, spends long nights trawling the web to try to swing the debate Israel’s way. “When I see internet polls for or against Israel I send out a mailing list to vote for Israel,” he said. “It can be that after 15 minutes there will be 400 votes for Israel.
“It’s very satisfying. There are also forums where Lebanese and Israelis talk.”
Israel’s Foreign Ministry must avoid direct involvement with the campaign but is in contact with international Jewish and evangelical Christian groups, distributing internet information packs.
Amir Gissin, the Israeli Foreign Ministry’s public relations director, said: “The internet’s become a leading tool for news, shaping the world view of millions. Our problem is the foreign media shows Lebanese suffering, but not Israeli. We’re bypassing that filter by distributing pictures showing how northern Israelis suffer from Katyusha rocket attacks.”

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Jul 30 2006 21:10 utc | 7

They haven’t spotted MoA yet

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Jul 30 2006 21:13 utc | 8

Cloned, the distinct lack of trolls here has always amazed me.

Posted by: Rowan | Jul 30 2006 21:20 utc | 9

Rowan, truth can never be trolled.

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Jul 30 2006 21:33 utc | 10

Has the fat lady sung?
probably, but the microphone is’nt turned on

Posted by: anna missed | Jul 30 2006 22:14 utc | 12

My mother is not a sophistocated thinker, and watches cable news (CNN) exclusively. If even she is totally disgusted by the Israeli actions in bombing Lebanon, then it is a good sign that the full court press has failed.

Posted by: FiveAcres | Jul 30 2006 22:26 utc | 13

Wonder if Hez will halt the rocket attacks at the same time?
They’re tied them to the IAF’s bombing.
Now might be a good time to reinforce that linkage.

Posted by: ran | Jul 30 2006 22:28 utc | 14

Josh Marshall today brought up the neocons’ plan for “transformation through destabilization,” which he wrote about in April 2003. His subtitle: “Chaos in the Middle East is not the Bush hawks’ nightmare agenda–it’s their plan.”
“Practice to Deceive”
If this really is the “plan,” I’m afraid we do have psychopaths in charge of the world’s only superpower.

Posted by: Zotz | Jul 30 2006 22:39 utc | 15

(Zotz – I loved that silly old film. Nice nick. Somehow appropriate for the topic of discussion these days!)
I thought permanent chaos for the Islamic world was always the neocon plan of Perle et al.

Posted by: 2nd anonymous poster | Jul 30 2006 22:49 utc | 16

an enraged elephant in a china-shop chasing down a bee

Posted by: jony_b_cool | Jul 30 2006 22:50 utc | 17

The interesting part of the Clean Break plan that nobody talks about:
“Ultimately, Israel can do more than simply manage the Arab-Israeli conflict though war. No amount of weapons or victories will grant Israel the peace its seeks. When Israel is on a sound economic footing, and is free, powerful, and healthy internally, it will no longer simply manage the Arab-Israeli conflict; it will transcend it. As a senior Iraqi opposition leader said recently: “Israel must rejuvenate and revitalize its moral and intellectual leadership. It is an important — if not the most important–element in the history of the Middle East.” Israel — proud, wealthy, solid, and strong — would be the basis of a truly new and peaceful Middle East.”
Nope, somehow we just haven’t fulfilled this part of the vision, and it looks further away than ever.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 30 2006 22:54 utc | 18

“Avner,” the pseudonymous hit man in George Jonas’s Vengeance, wrote in his preface to the new edition that he believed peace would come to the Middle East only when the political and economic situation shifts enough to bring equity and balance to the region. That seemed like a long mental journey, considering his former career as a hit man, and I wondered how many others who have seen war and violence up close have ended up in the same place.
As many have said and are saying, there’s no military solution to this tragedy, even if it involves extreme war crimes, which I certainly hope are off the table. I just can’t understand our leaders, who apparently see the world as some kind of chessboard covered with bloodless, insensate pieces to be manipulated into some grand design. Birth pangs, paying the price, and anger and resentment boiling over (instead of being managed) – they’re all happening somewhere else. How sad that those who have the power to let this happen or try to stop it can’t see the reality of the people who are living through it, in Gaza, Iraq, Israel, and Lebanon.

Posted by: Zotz | Jul 30 2006 23:39 utc | 19

Hanady Salman, an editor at as-Safir newspaper, writes about today’s massacre in Qana:

Qana – Sunday July 30th , 2006
Only to let you know that these are 55 civilians, all killed , 20 of them are kids betwween 7 months and 12 years old.
Only to let you know that a number of these children are handicapped, they were hit in the last Qana massacre in 1996.
Only to let you know CNN and BBC are hosting IDF spokespeople who tell the world that these civilians were warned to leave, but they just didn’t.
Only to let you know the air strikes took place at 1:00 am, all they people were sleeping, in their pyjamas, bare feet, in a shelter. The house was hit twice. Twice. To make sure they will all die.
Only to let you know that despite the fact that we’re animals, but it would have been impossible for animals to sleep had there been any shelling from anywhere close, as the IDF alleges.
Only to let you know you free media won’t show you these pictures.
Only to let you know that this is not the first time this happens, and I can promise you it won’t be the last time.

Posted by: John Francis Lee | Jul 31 2006 0:28 utc | 20

First, shoot missiles at any moving vehicle to make travel unthinkable.
Second, bomb the bridges and roads to make travel impossible.
Third, leaflet areas between your army and the road carnage warning that area residents will have to get out or be bombed.
Fourth, bomb every intact structure, the ones with basements twice.
Fifth, tell yourself and the world you are morally superior to your enemies.
Six, pause for effect.
See, the Olmert government does have a strategy!

Posted by: Multisect | Jul 31 2006 0:56 utc | 21

from multisects link

Posted by: r’giap | Jul 31 2006 1:04 utc | 22

Zoto,
… I’m afraid we do have psychopaths in charge of the world’s only superpower.
How long have you had any doubts Zoto? A dry drunk for # uno, and to complete the duo, a robot who’s only chance for heart was replaced by a mechanical device years ago.
I’m not quite sure these days just how to respond to the miracles of modern technology.

Posted by: Juannie | Jul 31 2006 1:19 utc | 23

I can’t really figure out what c&l’s john amato is about, he posts this video from chris matthews I guess in order to offer a sensible critique of the outcome of u.s. occupation: a “frakenstein” of shia power from tehran to s. lebanon.
I’ve argued, based on what little info there is about ahmadinejad, et al., that shia leadership throughout the region seems radicalized but lacks any expression of an ideology worthy of respect.
it’s hardly the case, however, that shiite intellectual traditions are nonexistent. here’s a snippet from the keddie book, modern iran:

Iranian Identity in the Face of Westernization
The increasing cultural Westernization of the Pahlavis was resented by the popular classes, by the bazaaris, and by the ulama, whose prestige and positions were attacked. Westernized habits were associated with Western politico-economic domination, and anti-Westernism and antiregime ideas turned increasingly to the masses’ Shi’i outlook. In the 196os thinkers began to discuss defense against Westernization and returning to Iran’s cultural identity. For this they denounced “Westoxication” (Gharbzadegi ).’9 This reaction can be understood in the context of the anti-imperialist struggle of Mosaddeq, and of rapid Westernization after the 1953 coup d’etat.
Jalal Al-e Ahmad was, in the 196os, the intellectual leader of a new generation of Iranian thinkers. Born in 1923 into a clerical family in the Taleqan Valley near Qazvin, he witnessed his father’s ruin after the laicizing reforms of Reza Shah. The father did not accept state control over his work as a notary, a post formerly reserved for ulama. Al-e Ahmad had to quit his family and work to pay for his studies. At twenty he became a Communist, in the years when occupied Iran was undergoing great social crises. Ahmad Kasravi’s influence on him was very strong.2° He quit the Tudeh party after the Azerbaijan events in reaction against Stalinism, and joined nationalist and socialist movements while teaching, translating, and writing stories with social themes. He was also an essayist, ethnologist, and critic. In the 196os he became the conscience of many intellectuals, and wrote a classic essay against Iran’s “Westoxication.”
When the ulama became leaders of the opposition he returned to an interest in Islam and went on pilgrimage to Mecca in 1964- Until his death in September 1969 he defended Islam against the policy of West ernization at any price championed by the regime, although his conversion was more political than religious 21 Al-e Ahmad found cultural roots and ties to the Iranian people in Islam. This feeling is found in a new way in Ali Shariati. After Al-e Ahmad died, Shariati took up the part of his work that was devoted to giving an Islamic response to the modern world .22
Two books by Al-e Ahmad will be discussed: On the Loyalty and Betrayal of the Intellectuals, a work of historical sociology where the author judges the attitude of educated Iranians by their services to the Iranian nation; and Westoxication,23 a violent pamphlet directed against a terrible malady that alienates Iranians from their identity and bewitches them with the West.
Al-e Ahmad’s viewpoint on Shi’ism was both critical and positive. The Shi’ism imposed by the Safavids crushed the independent spirit of the ulama and encouraged the religiosity of martyrs (the vanquished). The popularity of the Twelfth Imam arises from his being the hope and refuge of believers against the insurmountable inequities of this world. Islam, weakened by divisions between Sunnis and Shi’is, by mystical groups, and by Babism-Bahaism, was vulnerable to imperialism. Iranians succumbed to the image of “progress” and played the game of the West. Al-e Ahmad attacks nineteenth-century Westernizers like Mirza Aqa Khan Kermani, Malkom Khan, and Talebzadeh, and defends the anticonstitutional Shaikh Fazlollah Nuri for upholding the integrity of Iran and Islam in the face of the invading West 24
This does not mean that Al-e Ahmad was reactionary. His struggle was for the identity of the Shi’i Iranian. What he asked of Islam, at the moment (ca. 1963) when it again became the symbol of a national struggle against monarchy, was to raise politics to its just position. The ulama should cease their interminable ratiocinations over details and externals and consider real problems. Then Islam might again be a liberator as it was for the seventh-century Iranians.
Al-e Ahmad’s revolt, in part by its exaggerated tone, aroused the conscience of many Iranians. The Pahlavi regime had confronted differently the problems posed by the social and cultural transformation of Iran, spreading an official nationalist ideology. To soften cultural resistance, institutions patronized by the queen and honoring Iranian traditions were created. Some intellectuals found in them an aseptic place to express themselves and to write reports that were put aside. In these institutions no one could discuss religion or politics.
The paradoxical evolution of Al-e Ahmad from socialism to a political Islam was reflected in splits among intellectuals. Some, like the sociologist Ehsan Naraghi, remained secular while allowing Islam a role in national identity.25 Others sought an alternative to Westoxication in a deeper study of Islamic philosophy. Those closest to Al-e Ahmad’s path chose political opposition.

Ayatollah Taleqani appeared as one of the most liberal and progressive among the Iranian ulama; Sunni minorities approached him with their requests, as did also leftist groups, as they knew that Taleqam would welcome them and remember their common struggles against the shah and SAVAK. Possibly his long stays in jail with the nonreligious opposition helped him understand them. In the last months of his life, until one final statement, he ceased his former public statements differing from Khomeini’s policies.

In his Islam and Property, in Comparison to the Economic Systems o f the West, Taleqani developed his capacity for analysis. This is a response to contemporary problems presented in an historical context.39 Talegani discusses successively:
i. The evolution of property since the origins of humanity; the division of labor, exchange, money, laws, and the ideal community; the first economic theories, and the industrial revolution.
2. The appearance of workers’ power: here he examines Marxism, class struggle, extreme forms of capitalism, the dictatorship of the proletariat, and classless society. He criticizes Marxism as naive, for thinking [197] inequalities can be suppressed by giving special privileges to workers’ rule and by suppressing metaphysics. He explains such excesses in the context of struggles against capitalism.
3. The economy in the light of faith: Eschatology gives Islamic doctrine a transhistoric view of the economy; the legislator must both take account of spiritual aims and detach himself from his class conditioning.
Human laws (‘urf) are fragmentary, limited by history, and subject to change. They are easily diverted by a tyrannic power; are influenced by passions; and must be applied by coercion. Only Islam is the perfect legislator-it encourages reason to follow the path of God instead of misleading it; frees man from the slavery of human customs; teaches all to distinguish good from evil; and makes of a man controlled by passions a controller of himself. Because of these qualities, Islamic law (figh) is not accessible to all; only mujtahids can decide its application.
4. The economic bases of Islam and the roots of its precepts: God is the absolute owner of the goods confided to us; this is opposed to capitalism, for which property is absolutely free; and to socialism, which suppresses individual property. These two excesses permit the enslavement of man. The author applies this principle to analyzing the system of landownership and vaqf; in Islam, before Westerners came, feudalism (tuyuldari) never implanted itself durably. In Islam landownership is never absolute, and land reverts to the one who puts it under cultivation.
5. Money and the economic problems tied to it: Interest (riba) has created capitalism. Islam forbids hoarding but encourages commerce, which brings the distribution of riches. Utilizing a socialist slogan, Taleqani declares: One should take from everyone according to his abilities, and give to him according to his needs.
6. The specific features of the Islamic economy: Taleqani insists on the freedom of economic activity, of the production and distribution of goods. Natural resources belong to those who render them productive.
But there are limits, whose control is assured by the state (especially mineral resources).
7. Class differences, privileges, and their origin: Class privileges are not necessarily tied to money: for example, in the military classes. Islam, while recognizing differences among men, refuses the privileges engendered by monarchical regimes. Taleqani gives a history and criticism of the French Declaration of the Rights of Man, which is hypocritically advocated by the very people who constantly violate it. Inviolability of the principle of property opens the door to all the abuses of capitalism.

there’s much more than these examples of hip shiism. keddie says the radicalism of the revolution created “[t]he weakness of Shi’i ideologies … that of all apologists-namely, they try to show that their religion has provided in advance the key to all difficulties.”
though I doubt the implicit orientalism of matthews would permit acknowledgment of this rich tradition of thought surpassing the usual dualism of khoemenism v quietism, sunni v. shia, camel v hummer, animal v man, but the “shia crescent” probably is now, presently, a “frankenstein.”

Posted by: slothrop | Jul 31 2006 1:44 utc | 24

the contrast in quality between keddie’s book and, say, kenneth pollack’s iran book is amazing. the latter’s work was pimped endlessly by tv pundits. he’s an expert. even now.

Posted by: slothrop | Jul 31 2006 1:55 utc | 25

Judging by the way criticism of Israel as an entity has been received by some here, that is dismissed as anti-semitism in the cop-out that has sustained the Israeli genocidal policy against Arabs, for the last 50 years, I have no doubt that the comments I am about to make on the nature of the Jewish culture that evolved in Europe during the time of the European diaspora will have some looking for my jackboots but quite frankly I couldn’t give a fuck this morning. I am more interested in attempting to unearth the root cause of the flawed reasoning displayed in ethno-centric bullshit such as the ” Clean Break plan” and the constant attempts to slaughter Palestinians along with any other neigbouring Arabs into submission.
The mistake that the zionists make is in imagining that the Palestinian circumstance when threatened and oppressed, is similar to the circumstances the Jewish diaspora faced in Europe. For centuries when Jewish communities were threatened by the xtian majorities in Europe their leadership submitted.
They were frequently cowed by xtian aggression, yet the Arabs are not. There were plenty of examples of individual jews resisting the oppression, but Jewish leadership tended to be conciliatory. By not fighting back the reasoning went, we wont make it worse for ourselves.
Yet Arab leaders don’t do this very often. Why not?
In fact Arab leadership has followed the more normal pattern of resistance until martyrdom, if need be, that history records most threatened cultures adopting, jews included (eg at Masada).
I reckon the reason that the Jewish leadership caved in and were mostly conciliatory right up to the gates of the concentration camps, was that they ‘wanted to get along’. That is, their ideal situation was that of two separate and quite discrete cultures engaging with each other, commercially, artistically and to a lesser extent socially.
This made open conflict between the two cultures completely inviable. What was being aimed for was a situation that goes against the instinctive cultural self preservation that humans have always displayed.
While we can all agree on a conscious level that fear or loathing of another person or group of people just because their cultural practices are different is ‘wrong’, the fact is that this has been the instinctive reaction that humans have always had toward a foreign culture. Multi-culturalism is a ‘learned behaviour’ one that has to be continually re-inforced amongst a multi-cultural population. I am referring to true multi-culturalism here, where different groups and races of people have quite divergent practices; rather than one where people of different races all practice pretty much the same cultural behaviour.
(like the amerikan ideal for example).
But back to the Middle Eastern situation where the Palestinians in the main lack either the need, or the desire, to inter-act with Jewish Israelis.
True there are some, the so-called Arab-Israelis, who in return for a quite limited ‘slice of the pie’, have elected to accept second class citizenship.
The nearest recent similar example of such people would be the ‘coloureds’ of apartheid South Africa.
Just like the Arab Israelis they too were allowed to live in a few tightly controlled areas relatively close to the ‘meister race’, weren’t allowed to inter-marry with the meister race, and they were granted limited political representation in return for really oppressive state security monitoring.
These ‘2nd classers’ do respond ‘correctly’ to oppression, that is force does make them ‘behave’.
It is easy, but quite wrong to judge those people in this situation. Very easy on the outside to preach solidarity, however people do get caught within the situation they find themselves and it is beyond a lot of people to willingly give up the little bit they do have for a helluva a lot less other than the hope that one day things should get better.
But for the majority of Arabs, the idea of adopting the Israeli lifestyle is an anathema, plus the brutally offhand oppression by Israelis ensures that they don’t feel tempted to engage with Israelis.
This is where Israel has built the certain failure of their racist ‘experiment’ into the foundations of their society.
Some middle class Palestinian land-owners and professional people (doctors,lawyers etc) were acceptable within the vision, firstly because their presence helped camouflage the genocide; and secondly because many middle class people have such a huge investment in societal ‘stability’ that they are far more danger to themselves than they are to Israel.
If any attempt at all had been made to integrate the Palestinian poor into Israel the chances are the Jewish colonisation of Palestine would be a done deal instead of being well on the way to complete failure.
Talk about hoist by your own petard!
Instead of integrating the poorer Palestinians into the Israeli economy, Israel’s national socialist leadership elected to encourage Sephardic Jews from other middle eastern lands to migrate to Israel. In the 1960’s one of the most perverse facets of the ‘socialism’ allegedly practiced within Israel was that there were two quite distinct classes of Jewish Israelis and the Sephardi were definitely at the bottom of the pile.
Of course just like the ‘redneck white trash’ (as some amerikans so charmingly refer to their rural poor) in amerika, these dispossessed were only too happy to exact retribution on those in a worse situation. In Israel this was the Palestinians.
IMO the only way this cycle of violence and retribution can possibly end is with the demise of the racist and ethno centric state of Israel.
While it continues to exist it will continue to supply the momentum to the fly wheel that drives the cycle of violence.
Despite the way that the supporters of a separate Jewish nation claim some sort of inalienable ‘right’ to institutionalise their religious practices into the ‘law’, in a country where they are not the only major religion, right or wrong is irrelevant.
Right or wrong, the objective is unachievable.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Jul 31 2006 1:57 utc | 26

@Slothrop:
When you get this “great revelation” of yours sorted out, a two-page Power Point might be in order.
Please spare the jaded the rough drafts.

Posted by: Ms. Manners | Jul 31 2006 2:04 utc | 27

But back to the Middle Eastern situation where the Palestinians in the main lack either the need, or the desire, to inter-act with Jewish Israelis.
this doesn’t jive w/ historical detail, does it? you said the other day “jewish israelis” were/are not indigenes. and yet mizrahi jews have made the region a home since the days of pharoahs.

Posted by: slothrop | Jul 31 2006 2:07 utc | 28

I’m intrigued by Scowcroft’s article in the WaPo today.
Essentially, the Mentor of Condi and Consigliere to the Hated Oedipal Father-Figure builds on the meme that crisis is an opportunity for sudden/profound change, and specifically that the mini-war in south Lebanon is an opportunity for a Grand Bargain on the Israel/Palestine issue.
He points out — quite rightly IMHO — that the basic elements of such a bargain have evolved steadily over the past couple of decades and by now are quite well known, and hence that the major barrier to implementing one is a lack of political will.
One might argue that such a bargain requires both will AND opportunity, and perhaps that the current opportunity is not sufficient, but it’s intriguing nonetheless.

Posted by: bleh | Jul 31 2006 2:08 utc | 29

ms manners
I really think you’re a piece of shit who brings nothing here, just a private enthusiasm for inane counterpoint.
citizen delicately tried the other day to get it through to you that you are a piece of shit.
I don’t know what else to say.
don’t you have a rightwing libertarian twister party to attend?
and I’m baffled why some here encourage you. you’re obviously a troll.

Posted by: slothrop | Jul 31 2006 2:12 utc | 30

put another way: you’re in over your head here. and it’s embarrassing you persist w/ these declarations of unjustified intelligence.

Posted by: slothrop | Jul 31 2006 2:18 utc | 31

and dollars to donuts, you’re groucho redux.

Posted by: slothrop | Jul 31 2006 2:20 utc | 32

Hey Debs:
The word “genocidal” which actually does have a meaning other than “I don’t like them” or callously bombs civilians. There is a strong faction in Israel that actually is genocidal. If that faction ever gains enough power to implement their policy, it will be no small thanks to the “allies” of the Palestinians who have always stepped up to validate the darkest paranoia of the Jews whenever things are in doubt. And if that happens, all the dancing around with Hamas flags in every isolated middle class lefty enclave in the world will do as much good as it has done for the last fifty years – it will fulfill some pathetic psychological need, but won’t do anything else.
The poor Palestinians, with allies like the Saudis and the anti-semites of the world, their situation is grim indeed.
As for your invented history of Europe, it must be a relief to be able to stop faking it.

Posted by: citizen k | Jul 31 2006 2:41 utc | 33

@Bleh:
Link didn’t work. Had a hard time finding it over there at Pravda on the Potomac.
Wish someone would listen to the old fool.
Good Link:
Scowcroft

Posted by: Ms. Manners | Jul 31 2006 3:04 utc | 34

Brent Scowcroft
please. stop wasting our time, ms manners.

Posted by: slothrop | Jul 31 2006 3:38 utc | 35

wtf?
brent scowcroft?
goddamnit

Posted by: slothrop | Jul 31 2006 3:40 utc | 36

“But back to the Middle Eastern situation where the Palestinians in the main lack either the need, or the desire, to inter-act with Jewish Israelis.”
“this doesn’t jive w/ historical detail, does it? you said the other day “jewish israelis” were/are not indigenes. and yet mizrahi jews have made the region a home since the days of pharoahs..
I’m afraid I don’t follow. Where does the statement I made here about whether or not the palestiniians want to interact with the Israelis even mention who is or isn’t indiginous.
Similarly where do I say elsewhere that all the jews in the area are imports? Most of them, are but as I have mentioned from time to time during the discussion of this issue over the years, yes there were jews in Palestine before the British Mandate, but they didn’t cop anything like the deal meted out to Jews by europeans or what the Israelis are now handing out to arabs in Israel, Palestine, or Lebanon.
As per usual the direction of the debate will be subsumed by witting or unwitting stooges of Israel who seem to be saying that criticising Israel’s innate racism is racist.
Which is the la la land reasoning that others can engage in but I won’t bother. However if anyone can seperate their cultural conditioning sufficiently to engage in whether the main contention of my last post, that is that the Israeli leadership’s reasoning is that eventually Arabs will ‘give in’ if they bash them and pound them long enough, and that this faulty reasoning stems from the jewish diaspora leadership’s acquiesence to the same sort of bashing and pounding then I will debate it.
The rest of the crap including the closet zionist’s contention that killing off a race of people slowly isn’t genocide, that it is only genocide if done quickly and presumably in exactly the same way as the Nazi murdered jews, is about par for the course for those who have chosen to believe the bullshit that the ‘we got beat to within a inch of our lives, so we can do what we like to anyone else’ mob, has drummed into them over the years.
Really none of the petty attacks directed at the Palestinians or the Lebanese fighters or their supporters is the least bit different from the shit that we used to cop fighting apartheid. In those days we were called communist because the ANC was a ‘communist front organisation’, if only.
It wouldn’t matter what banner the people of Palestine chose to march under, the zionists and their stooges would always find a reason to find it immoral or wrong.
It amazes me that anyone could attempt to argue that any state which has laws against people of different races inter-marrying, voting together or even, and this is one which I wasn’t aware of until recently, issues car license plates according to the race and habitat of the owner has any inherent right to exist.
What the Israelis are attempting to accomplish is no different in shape, form or magnitude than what was attempted in apartheid South Africa.
It cannot be argued that the State of Israel would somehow ‘be OK’ if only they got rid of those tiresome laws, because without those tiresome laws, the state of Israel couldn’t survive. All the other inhabitants would argue for a fair share and without the repressive sjambuk/carbine wielding thugs and the racially selected military enforcing their racially specific legislation, it would be all over in a minute.
But the only response from Israeli apologists is always “That’s racist or worse “you said the Israeli police use mace they don’t. They use a diferrent brand of nerve gas than that” In other words the usual shoot the messenger or nitpicking tactics that dupes use to avoid the reality of their chosen mindset.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Jul 31 2006 3:41 utc | 37

Bleh & Ms.Manners regarding:
“wish someone would listen to the old fool”
The U.S. has lost so much standing in the Mideast (and World community), that I think to have the U.S. lead such an effort may be no longer realistic or desirable.

Posted by: Rick Happ | Jul 31 2006 3:43 utc | 38

Brent Scowcroft
Another fading Edwardian plant, wondering why the sun doesn’t shine any more.

Posted by: billmon | Jul 31 2006 3:44 utc | 39

debs
I’ll admit when it comes to this deep historical metaphysics of who belongs where in the m.e., i’m a boy scout genealogist. I spoke too soon, but it does seem to me not merely the abstraction of palestinians deserve more claim to inigeneity than do the abstraction of jews.
I’ll defer to the competences of others to clarify.
w/ respect, you know.

Posted by: slothrop | Jul 31 2006 3:50 utc | 40

Regardless of some aspects of Scowcroft’s history as a geopolitical actor, or the faded-velvet nature of pretty much any of the ancien regime, I still gotta say, I think there is virtue to the basic premise of his argument, which I interpret as:
— The current crisis in southern Lebanon is big enough to qualify as an Opportunity (would go into the Carnegie School’s “Garbage Can” model of institutional decision-making, were it not for the hour, but q.v. for those who are interested).
— (Reading between the lines here) The crisis is not SO big that political leaders are heavily constrained; i.e., there’s a LOT of room to negotiate at this point.
— Ergo, the situation is ripe for a Grand Bargain, so why not at least TRY, and if we don’t succeed in sealing it, at least make more progress along the lines of what pretty much everybody agrees has occurred in fits and starts over the last few decades.
I hold no brief for recent Republican administrations, just because the current one makes them (not to mention everyone other than the mid-20th-century totalitarians and certain more recent Pol-Pot-like regimes of various southern climes) look like oatmeal-eating Carmelite nuns, but insofar as our current absurdly primary-colored political climate can even admit of shades of gray, it’s worthwhile listening to the publicly expressed ideas of people who have been in the crucible.
Hell, once Condi is free and re-tenured somewhere, I’ll listen to what SHE has to say.
So that for Edwardian plants, IMHO, and as to the notion that the US has “lost so much standing” etc., I’m afraid I gotta say, as nasty as the 800-pound gorilla’s farts smell, if he’s in the room, you CAN’T ignore him.

Posted by: bleh | Jul 31 2006 4:05 utc | 41

What the Israelis are attempting to accomplish is no different in shape, form or magnitude than what was attempted in apartheid South Africa.
But the Afrikanners were not engaged in “genocide”. Can you at least try to make your nonsense internally consistent? Genocide is an attempt to murder all people belonging to some group. If the evil Zionists are attempting genocide, they really suck at it since the population is increasing something that makes the actual pro-genocide factions in Israel very unhappy. If you want an example of successful genocide, try the collapse of Maori population from the first contact to the early 1900s. An accomplishment like that would make the Kahanists very happy, but as you so eloquently pointed out, the Jews don’t have the same spirit as the Europeans.

Posted by: citizen k | Jul 31 2006 4:07 utc | 42

Debs: Can you read the links you submit?

The standard Israeli-issued licence plate for cars owned by Israeli citizens is yellow. This includes everyone with an ID card saying that they are an Israeli citizen, i.e. Israeli Jews and Israeli Arabs. The yellow plates are also issued to Palestinians living in East Jerusalem, considered by Israel to be part of its territory and by Palestinians to be part of the West Bank.
The yellow licence plate does not show which area the owner of the car lives in or what race the owner is.

Posted by: citizen k | Jul 31 2006 4:17 utc | 43

citizen k- suggest you read a bit more. including the definitions of what constitutes genocide.

Posted by: b real | Jul 31 2006 4:23 utc | 44

“I’m afraid I gotta say, as nasty as the 800-pound gorilla’s farts smell, if he’s in the room, you CAN’T ignore him.”
“We propose to defeat the British empire by ignoring it.”
Eamon de Valera
First President of the Irish Republic
1916
(possibly apocryphal, but you get the idea.)

Posted by: billmon | Jul 31 2006 4:26 utc | 45

Fifth, tell yourself and the world you are morally superior to your enemies.
Nice one Multisect, Nobody gets past this line in one piece.

Posted by: jony_b_good | Jul 31 2006 4:35 utc | 46

Just to make clear what I guess I was assuming earlier as a premise of discussion, I think the US domestic political situation has changed materially since the last time Scowcroft tried to have any public effect. The Bushies (writ small) are much more on the ropes than they’ve ever been, and other actors (e.e., Annan, Solana) are starting to take a much more active role — verbally, at least. Point being, the bully-boys can’t sideline people quite as easily as they’ve done before, and if a former star linebacker like Scowcroft pipes up, other members of the team are likely to listen.
And of course, his doing this now is a sign that he thinks this way as well.
Also, as to ignoring the US, de Valera was speaking of a much more localized situation. This one is materially different in two ways. First, it’s already international, and the US is already deeply involved in many, many ways. And second, even if the US weren’t involved, it could be, and in ways that actually could be beneficial (as strange as that might seem given recent events.)
Like it or not, we’re involved, both in fact (money, weaponry, and probably governmental advocacy), and in perception (who’s getting blamed by the Lebanese these days?).
Ain’t no ignoring that, on either side.

Posted by: bleh | Jul 31 2006 4:46 utc | 47

That’s a horrid thought, Bleh, an 800 Lb. gorilla farting in a sedate, unvented drawing room.
What to do?
Call 911, Hazmat, Retrograde, Defenestrate?
I will have to consult the more ancient authoritas.

Posted by: Sun Tsu | Jul 31 2006 4:51 utc | 48

@slothrup, #24:
Thanks for the edification. Interesting book. Nevertheless, keddie hasn’t shed his post-Marxist formulation that resouce=economically exploitative opportunity. Odd, considering how close Iran is to the incredibly shrinking Aral Sea, and the super-salinated cotten fields which are failing in the ‘Stans.
Regarding Pollack’s nonsense, let me relate this:
Last year I was seeing a Dentist who was helping me remove the mercury from my mouth. Arriving early one day, I noticed a book for sale on the counter written by the Dentist’s brother, who just happens to be a huge mucky-mucky in the Zionist neo-con world (Not naming names). Well, I scanned the book in the waiting room, and I must say, the nature and quality of the arguments made, as well as the style of the writing wouldn’t have passed muster, and would have been instantly laughed off of this blog. Said Dentist had a hard time working in my mouth that day, as I was biting my tongue so hard.
@debs #26:
No jackboots. You are thinking things through in the right direction, basically.
I have been thinking the past few days if a case could be made that, in some respects, the Israelis have already surpassed the Nazis in sustained terror, if not sheer horror. Firstly, it is a clear canard that Israel has faced any sort of existential threat, and that this accounts for their actions. If anything, Germany was far more threatened. Secondly, one must take into account the relative size of the two countries when weighing the horror of their actions. Then, there is the absolutely chilling similarity of methods, many of which Billmon has recently detailed, including massive collective punishment. Also, according to Bill Blum, in his latest Anti-Empire report, “A few years ago, if not still now, Israel wrote numbers on some of the Palestinian prisoners’ arms and foreheads, using blue markers, a practice that is of course reminiscent of the Nazis’ treatment of Jews in World War II.” Of course, we have yet to hear talk about lampshades (arab skin may be too dark), and soap manufactories, but it is still early in the game.
@Billmon:
Thank you so much for your keenly insightful commentary lately, and your polished and entertaining writting style — probably more Gene Kelly (Singing in the Rain and Walking upside down in that little room) than Fred Astaire, but that’s just fine by my book.
******
Since some of us seem to have drifted into late night “Rude Pundit” mode, let me say this. It has been chilling to watch how our world leaders have been reacting to the latest spate of violence. Certainly no one is pulling a Blanco or a Nagin, and breaking down on camera. Rather, it seems to me that Bush and Bliar have been having trouble walking down that flag draped path to their podiums because their stiff little woodies have been getting in the way. And, as to Condilymphoma — all I can say is, watching her slink through public appearances in her new outfits, playing piano and filled with a kind of manic giddy glee, as if she were making her first appearance on the Ed Sullivan show opposite Liberace, is simply chilling. Only evil incarnate (or a neo-con, but I repeat myself) would show such near-orgasmic, vampiric, blood-lust. Perhaps she failed to remove her “double-your-pleasure” vibrator before primping. As to her new overly reddened lips, all I can think is “Venus Flytrap” or “Vagina Dentata.”
Apologies to all for my lack of couth.

Posted by: Malooga | Jul 31 2006 5:39 utc | 49

I can’t see Israel, regardless of the scope of the current debacle, being willing to approve of a “larger solution.” At most, they will re-play the Barak/Clinton approach of offering the Palestinians a peace plan that they could never agree too, and then blame them for rejecting it with the old chestnut, you know, “The Palestinians never miss and opportunity to miss an opportunity….,” as Friedman loves to remark.

Posted by: Malooga | Jul 31 2006 5:44 utc | 50

B real: I await your educational links with great anticipation.
Malooga: Israelis have already surpassed the Nazis in sustained terror, if not sheer horror. – and I thought the neo-cons were lost in a world of fantasy. But I’d love to see the fundamentals of your rating system.

Posted by: citizen k | Jul 31 2006 6:04 utc | 51

I did qualify my remarks with an italisized “could” and the phrase “in some respects.”
For starters, I believe that the Israelis have killed a higher ratio of Palestinians compared to the total Israeli population, over time since 1948, then the ratio of Jews killed compared to the total German population during WWII.
You can argue whether that is a meaningful statistic, as I have designed it; but for a nation of 5 million Jews to have been responsible for over 1 million, or more, Palestinian deaths from avoidable causes, over time, is, by any accounting, pretty horrific, and tres, tres “Old Testament”, to boot.

Posted by: Malooga | Jul 31 2006 6:16 utc | 52

Malooga:
What a strange measure. Do you think that the few thousand Apache who killed thousands of settlers were greater practitioners of genocide than the SS or the US Cavalry? You think that the Chinese destruction of Tibet is somehow diluted by the billion count of Chinese? The Sandinistas were worse than the CIA? Give me a break – your calculus is indefensible and in any case would leave the Israelis as mere pikers behind the pound-for-pound reigning champions in Belgium.
Have you ever spoken to Israeli eliminationists? There are real ones, not just those who appear in the fevered rhetoric of the left. They don’t want to fuck around with magic markers and “genocide” in terms of a few assassinations, some bombings, blockades, and a couple of years of random shootings. They propose old style genocide, like what happened to the Polish Jews, the Tasmanians, and other recipients of international standards of Western morality. If I believed that the international “palestinian solidarity” movement had any effect at all other than as therapy for middle class malcontents, I’d say it has a great deal of guilt for the plight of the Palestinians. Politics is the art of the possible. Success is a matter of dirty compromise. And the “solidaritists”, from the safety of their own settler nations, have repeatedly counseled the Palestinians to be martrys rather than winners.
And do you really buy into Mr. Debs bizzare explanation for European anti-semitism as a result of the repellent attitudes of the kikes? “What was being aimed for was a situation that goes against the instinctive cultural self preservation that humans have always displayed” – boy that’s right out of the Aryan Nations textbook. Here’s an irony, the Arabs that Mr. Debs claims to support did not have that “instinctive” attitude of the Europeans. Instead, for many centuries, undoubteldy with ups and downs, in Spain, Iraq, and Egypt, Jewish, Greek Christian, Coptic, and other minorities flourished in exactly the sort of multi-cultural environments that the Settler from New Zealand finds so hard to understand.

Posted by: citizen k | Jul 31 2006 6:43 utc | 53

“Also, as to ignoring the US, de Valera was speaking of a much more localized situation. This one is materially different in two ways. First, it’s already international, and the US is already deeply involved in many, many ways. And second, even if the US weren’t involved, it could be, and in ways that actually could be beneficial (as strange as that might seem given recent events.)
Sometimes I think we all forget, myself included, that for the people fighting and dying, it is a local (national) situation. Sure, other countries have interests, implicit agreements and even spheres of interest or control, but these things mean nothing when your family has just been bombed and all killed by a neighbor state. In this case, the U.S. is tied to Israel, and I don”t know why that is, but it is. I would think that the Palestinians have long given up that U.S. diplomats are going to come and save them. And with Bush rushing bombs to Israel, I would think the same for the Lebanese.
A dollar short and a day late.

Posted by: Rick Happ | Jul 31 2006 7:32 utc | 54

that is that the Israeli leadership’s reasoning is that eventually Arabs will ‘give in’ if they bash them and pound them long enough, and that this faulty reasoning stems from the jewish diaspora leadership’s acquiesence to the same sort of bashing and pounding then I will debate it.
Well, we could start with the US leadership’s use of the same premise in Iraq, but I assume you will counter by citing the absolute control over the hapless Americans by the jewish conspiracy – uh – AIPAC. General Westmorland said “In October 1966, General Westmoreland defined it as follows: “We are fighting the war in Vietnam to show that guerrilla warfare does not pay.” “, but he must have been under orders from the Jew McNamara or Lyndon Johnson.
So let’s go to the French effort to terrorize the FLN in Algeria in the 50s (caused by Captain Dreyfus? ), the Ethipian effort to make the Eritreans give up by terror (I know, Haile Selasie – the Lion of Zion – get it?), the terror campaign that General Howe believed would cause the Continental Congress to give up the fight (“Howe” must be a shortened version of Howie!), Napoleon’s effort to intimidate the Spanish guerilla (Captain Dreyfus again), the Nazi “night and fog” campaign (must have been contaminated by the Jewish experience).
So:

“You have to understand the Arab mind,” said Capt. Todd Brown, a U.S. company commander with the 4th Infantry Division in Iraq, who had led his troops in encasing Abu Hishma in a razor-wire fence to contain the resistance suspected to be coming from the village. “The only thing they understand is force.”
Over a century ago, during a period of history that few Americans today can recall, another U.S. general uttered similar words. It would take at least “ten years of bayonet treatment” to make Filipinos accept American rule, said Gen. Arthur MacArthur, even as, to deprive the “enemy” of popular support, U.S. troops herded whole Filipino villages into concentration camps — precursors of the strategic hamlets used by the United States during the Vietnam War and the razor-wire fences now employed by the troops commanded by Capt. Brown to enclose defiant Iraqi villages.
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0220-10.htm

Here’s that noted European Jew (believed by the naive to be an English aristoricrat) Leith-Ross discussing the utility of airplanes in British Arabia

“an aerial raid with bombs and machine guns often has an overwhelming and sometimes an instantaneous effect in inducing submission.”

In fact, every nearly nation with a more powerful military seems to believe it can intimidate its neighbors. Cripes, the sordid influence of the jews AIPAC is frar more reaching than I had imagined.

Posted by: citizen k | Jul 31 2006 8:35 utc | 55

When stuck in a mudhole of you’re own choosing, the easiest if least honest way out, is to try and make it like something else has happened.
So therefore I am accused of blaming AIPAC for Iraq. Oh no I’m not citizen-k crossed it out. I see make the allegation then withdraw it because it isn’t supportable, but try and leave the smear. Pitiful really.
The allegation is unsupportable because my take on AIPAC has always been that it is a ‘cog in the wheel’. Just part of the ‘laundry’ by which the elites help themselves to the people’s earnings in Amerika.
I think you’ll have to look a bit closer to home. say in Amerika itself to find those who want to blame their lack of resistance to this sodomy on ‘the jews’.
AIPAC provides an important element of the laundry which uses arab blood in the wash and the rinse cycle, but if it weren’t there it would be replaced by the white hispanic lobby and the blood would be that of the people of latin amerika. Or the elites of south east asia who provided the funding in the past. That didn’t really work for amerika though. There wasn’t enough easily accessible money for the elites. So the south east asian bosses had to find the money by running smack into amerika. Diastrous for amerikan productivity. Plus of course the children of the pricks who devised this scheme got into it as well. No no It was only meant to be the nigras and poles and such.
Same with latin amerika really. Once amerika’s elites had absorbed all the available wealth, the latin american elites had to resort to drugs to pay off the ‘representatives of the amerikan people’. Became impossible to find help about the place that wouldn’t slit yer throat for a dollar, so now the elite of amerika imagine they have it covered. Grab ME oil while moving everything important offshore. That way whatever new evil they choose to visit upon their serfs, sorry voters, won’t effect them in the hip pocket.
AIPAC are vital to this but not necessarily mandatory.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Jul 31 2006 19:34 utc | 56