Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
July 30, 2006
WB: The Definition of Losing +

Billmon:

It is in that sense — the sense Clausewitz used — that Israel is losing, and has probably lost, this war. There’s always the possibility that the IDF will dream up a bold, imaginative stroke to redress the balance, like the brilliant ’73 counterattack that trapped an entire Egyptian Army on the banks of the Suez Canal. But this IDF isn’t showing that kind of creativity and daring. It’s also not clear what kind of a stroke against a guerrilla army like Hizbullah could give Israel the smashing success it needs in the limited time left. ..

II. The Definition of Losing

I. Hirohito Watch

Comments

I think it was always understood by the Americans and the Israelis that the time would come to stop fighting and allow the diplomats to take over. Shrub may think he’s fighting the Battle of Armageddon with his TV remote, but everybody else understands that this game is not for keeps, at least not yet.
The problem is that under the rules of the game, the benefits that accrue to the winner in the postwar bargaining are directly proportional to its military performance.

Huh? Rules? More like: “We don’t need no stinkin rules.”
When people fight to the death, I would say its for keeps.
What rules were followed in Vietnam? Iraq?
What makes you so sure this “game” is being played by refined/implicitly defined rules?
It is reported day after day that Hezbullah is seeking an end to the fighting… maybe yes that’s true, and maybe even more true, if their demands are met. Israel can walk away, and all the diplomats in the world won’t get the soldiers back if the other party doesn’t want to play by their rules.

Posted by: Rick Happ | Jul 30 2006 6:49 utc | 1

Midterms coming up.
The WH needs to score something significant, that will rally the supporters of Israel back home. Iraq is definitely not delivering that.
Let’s attack Hamas and Hezbullah! The Israeli’s will overrun them in a week, and then we can claim victory and having protected the world.
Only some idiot at the IDF didn’t read the fine print. He read the part that said attack Lebanon.
People will puzzle for years over the Israeli decision to destroy Lebanon’s infrastructure.
The obvious explanation: to avoid Lebanon becoming a significant trading centre and force in the Mid-East, is too despicable.
Right now, Israel has nothing. That way lies desperate measures.

Posted by: SteinL | Jul 30 2006 7:28 utc | 2

Some 35 Lebanese civilians were killed, 21 of them children, in an Israel Air Force strike on a building in the south Lebanon village of Qana on Sunday morning. Dozens of others were reportedly trapped in the rubble.
Link to Ha’aretz article
I don’t agree with a “sky is falling” analysis here. Rice said publicly there would be a deal by the end of the week. She wouldn’t knowingly make a public claim that’s going to put egg all over her face if it’s just a bluff. I think they’re all in trouble on many fronts, and they know it.

Posted by: 2nd anonymous poster | Jul 30 2006 7:57 utc | 3

Ha’aretz = Haaretz
Sorry, it’s late. And, I don’t mean I’m disagreeing with others here when I say I don’t agree with a “sky is falling” analysis (at least in this thread). Obviously, desperate measures are being taken. It’s the poor of the poor, villages and buildings where there are children, women, old people left are being hit now.

Posted by: 2nd anonymous poster | Jul 30 2006 8:04 utc | 4

Meanwhile in Gaza: 97 fatalities in the Gaza Strip, but all eyes are on Lebanon

The Israel Defense Forces has killed 97 people in the Gaza Strip since the fighting began in Lebanon. Most of them were armed, and the rest were civilians – children, women, men, the elderly. The large number of fatalities suggests the IDF is engaged in indiscriminate killing under the cover of the war in the north.

Posted by: b | Jul 30 2006 8:11 utc | 5

Billmons posts are about the only ones on the entire internets that are worth reading imho – superb real anaylis
Top stuff – Go Billmon Go!!

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 30 2006 8:15 utc | 6

And do you believe the irony of the impoverished hosting the destitute?
Lebanon displaced shelter with Palestinian refugees
AIN EL-HILWEH, Lebanon, July 27 (Reuters) – Palestinians in this impoverished camp have turned from downtrodden refugees to generous hosts as they offer shelter to Lebanese families fleeing Israeli bombardment.
With the southern city of Sidon reeling under the influx of thousands of people escaping devastated border villages, dozens of Lebanese families have found temporary homes nearby in the country’s biggest Palestinian refugee camp.
(oh yeah, this offensive has really had its desired polarization effect)

Posted by: 2nd anonymous poster | Jul 30 2006 8:15 utc | 7

Lebanon displaced shelter with Palestinian refugees
AIN EL-HILWEH, Lebanon, July 27 (Reuters) – Palestinians in this impoverished camp have turned from downtrodden refugees to generous hosts as they offer shelter to Lebanese families fleeing Israeli bombardment.
With the southern city of Sidon reeling under the influx of thousands of people escaping devastated border villages, dozens of Lebanese families have found temporary homes nearby in the country’s biggest Palestinian refugee camp.
(sorry, must have forgotten to close a bracket above. The polarization aim of this offensive has really worked well, hasn’t it?)

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 30 2006 8:17 utc | 8

Gideon Levy Days of darkness

In war as in war: Israel is sinking into a strident, nationalistic atmosphere and darkness is beginning to cover everything. The brakes we still had are eroding, the insensitivity and blindness that characterized Israeli society in recent years is intensifying. The home front is cut in half: the north suffers and the center is serene. But both have been taken over by tones of jingoism, ruthlessness and vengeance, and the voices of extremism that previously characterized the camp’s margins are now expressing its heart. The left has once again lost its way, wrapped in silence or “admitting mistakes.” Israel is exposing a unified, nationalistic face.

Since we’ve grown accustomed to thinking collective punishment a legitimate weapon, it is no wonder no debate has sparked here over the cruel punishment of Lebanon for Hezbollah’s actions. If it was okay in Nablus, why not Beirut? The only criticism being heard about this war is over tactics. Everyone is a general now and they are mostly pushing the IDF to deepen its activities. Commentators, ex-generals and politicians compete at raising the stakes with extreme proposals.

Chauvinism and an appetite for vengeance are raising their heads. If two weeks ago only lunatics such as Safed Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu spoke about “wiping out every village where a Katyusha is fired,” now a senior officer in the IDF speaks that way in Yedioth Aharonoth’s main headlines. Lebanese villages may not have been wiped out yet, but we have long since wiped out our own red lines.

Lebanon, which has never fought Israel and has 40 daily newspapers, 42 colleges and universities and hundreds of different banks, is being destroyed by our planes and cannon and nobody is taking into account the amount of hatred we are sowing. In international public opinion, Israel has been turned into a monster, and that still hasn’t been calculated into the debit column of this war. Israel is badly stained, a moral stain that can’t be easily and quickly removed. And only we don’t want to see it.
The people want victory, and nobody knows what that is and what its price will be.
The Zionist left has also been made irrelevant. As in every difficult test in the past – the two intifadas for example – this time too the left has failed just when its voice was so necessary as a counterweight to the stridency of the beating tom-toms of war. Why have a left if at every real test it joins the national chorus?

Long before this war is decided, it can already be stated that its spiraling cost will include the moral blackout that is surrounding and covering us all, threatening our existence and image no less than Hezbollah’s Katyushas.

Posted by: b | Jul 30 2006 8:18 utc | 9

Lebanon displaced shelter with Palestinian refugees
IN EL-HILWEH, Lebanon, July 27 (Reuters) – Palestinians in this impoverished camp have turned from downtrodden refugees to generous hosts as they offer shelter to Lebanese families fleeing Israeli bombardment.
With the southern city of Sidon reeling under the influx of thousands of people escaping devastated border villages, dozens of Lebanese families have found temporary homes nearby in the country’s biggest Palestinian refugee camp.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 30 2006 8:18 utc | 10

About the prepuce called the “Occupied Territories”…Israel should be asking itself who it wants to perform the circumcision and when and how.
They can do it themselves relatively painlessly and professionally. A Gomco clamp, proper surgical instruments, etc. All over and done with in short order.
Or they can have world opinion take it upon itself to do it. That’ll take many years. Be done with the slowly tightening torniquet of sanctions and opprobrium. A cut here and a cut there. Adding up in the end to thousands of them. And if you’re on the receiving end of that treatment I should imagine it feels more like it’s being done with garden shears than a scalpel.
But these things are relative. Because if Hezbollah and Hamas and their ilk have a hand in the “procedure”…

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 30 2006 8:20 utc | 11

Siniora just called the Israelis war criminals and has said that he will accept nothing less than immediate cease fire. Back to the drawing board.
I’m watching CNN now – and I grant you, it’s from CNN International – and “Grapes of Wrath” is being heard over and over again in the reporting after this latest bombing of refugees.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 30 2006 8:26 utc | 12

Billmon is right on here, this is a chess match with rules and a clock. And the IDF has nothing but more war crimes to show for the delay enforced by Rice. And now, the longer she waits, the less she will have to bargain with. Or, waiting for the tsunami wave to reach the shore — knowing the earthquake has already happened.

Posted by: anna missed | Jul 30 2006 8:27 utc | 13

The IDF is in a difficult position of not having weakened enough the H’bolla. The one thing that keeps Israel going on its militarist direction is that the populace genuinely believe that they are besieged. When IDF proves inadequate in protecting Israel (from rain of rockets) there will have to be some sort of a crisis. Unfortunately they’ll probably opt for more military options than say look for negotiated peace. It’s not quite the same as in Iraq where if America recognizes defeat, it isn’t the end of the world, as all it means is that it pulls out. Israel can’t leave the area where it resides. How they got it in their minds to make their neighbors distrust them more than they do already I can not fathom.

Posted by: yy | Jul 30 2006 9:04 utc | 14

A comment from a Haaretz reader of said article:
Disaster. Total disaster!
They are right. This is the beginning of the end of Israel.
Our enemies are now so emboldened, we are seen as weak, fat, lazy and with no energy to fight.
Iran is at our doorstep and we couldn`t even do a thing about it. 3 days to capture a village????
We are doomed.

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Jul 30 2006 9:09 utc | 15

The NYTimes might as well endorse the Dark Horse :

At this critical time in the Middle East, I believe that when Israel’s security is threatened, the United States must unambiguously stand with our ally to be sure that it is safe and secure… It is not for the United States to dictate to Israel how it defends itself… After the fighting stops, the President needs to reengage in this part of the world and work on a peace settlement… We should not seek to impose a resolution on Israel.

The difference between Lieberman and Lamont is the speed with which their knees hit the floor in response to the AIPAC’s wishes.
The NYTimes can safely endorse Lamont. He too is “a made man”.

Posted by: John Francis Lee | Jul 30 2006 9:16 utc | 16

Welcome to my parlor
William Lind, July 29, 2006
excerpts:
Perhaps the neocons have convinced President Bush that Israeli olive oil can substitute for Arab petroleum as fuel for America’s SUVs.
(…)
But what if instead the government called for a million marchers, mostly women and children, to head toward the Lebanese-Israeli frontier, waving palm branches and singing songs? That’s how Morocco took the Spanish Sahara, and it would present Israel with a sticky wicket indeed.
Antiwar.com
And he calls Rice the Tea Lady!

Posted by: Noirette | Jul 30 2006 9:23 utc | 17

As far as I am concerned they are all fucking assholes :
Dozens killed in Israeli air strike

More than 20 children were feared dead today after Israeli missiles struck the southern Lebanese village of Qana, flattening houses on top of sleeping residents. Early reports said that about 50 adults and children had died.
The Israeli army said missiles had been fired from the area before the 1am air strike in which a three-story building took a direct hit.
Rescuers aided by villagers were digging by hand to look for casualties.
“We want this to stop,” shouted villager Mohammed Ismail. ” May God have mercy on the children. They came here to escape the fighting.”
“They are hitting children to bring the fighters to their knees,” said the black-haired man with a gray beard, his brown pants covered in dust.
The Israeli army said it targeted Qana because rockets have been repeatedly launched from the area on Israel. “We were attacking launchers that were firing missiles,” said Capt. Jacob Dallal, an Israeli army spokesman.
He said the army dropped leaflets several days ago telling civilians to leave Qana.
In April 1996 more than 100 Lebanese civilians were killed at the same village in an Israeli artillery shelling of a UN base. The civilians had sought refuge with the UN to escape Israeli bombardment.
The attack on Qana, in the hills east of the port city of Tyre, came as heavy fighting erupted along the border between Hizbollah and the Israeli army.
Hizbollah’s al-Manar TV channel said Israeli troops had “infiltrated” a zone known as the Taibeh Project area, some three or four kilometers inside Lebanon. It said the Israeli force was a commando unit known as “the Golani Brigade,” and that two soldiers had been killed.
The Israeli army would not immediately comment on this report, and it was not clear whether this was a small-scale clash or the large invasion Lebanese authorities have been fearing.
Along the border, several Hizbollah-held sectors were pounded overnight by the Israeli army, witnesses said.
Lebanese officials said yesterdayday that Israeli troops had massed on the sector of the border where Israeli troops were reported to have entered Lebanon. That area was about 20 kilometers to the northeast of the town of Bint Jbail, from which Israeli troops pulled out on Saturday after a week of fierce clashes.
Al-Manar also broadcast a communique from Hizbollah saying it had shelled Israeli outposts along the border.
The Israeli army said Katyushas rockets were falling in Nahariya, Kiryat Shemona and an area close to Maalot. It said the rockets mostly fell in open areas, and that no injuries were reported.

The stuff about missiles coming from these buildings is likely patent bullshit. The lebanese freedom fighters have up until this point been careful to ensure that people have not been in and around those places where missiles have been launched from. This has been demonstrated by the lack of civilian casualties when genuine HB targets have been attacked as opposed to the bullyboy or payback targets hit by the Israeli war crims when their lack of fighting prowess has been plain for all to see.
This war crime will be ‘payback’ for the pounding the IDF infantry has been taking in the last few days.
In less enlightened times I would have been tempted to say.
“I’d call all those Israeli murderering cunts, except cunts are useful.”
Nowadays I’ll call em pricks and leave it up to others to protest their utility.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Jul 30 2006 9:38 utc | 18

After the bomb this morning killed 50 people, the Lebanese prime minister told Rice not come to Lebanon again. Thereby she was out of the game. Now Rice gives in?! The whole plan is in shambles.
Rice says time for cease-fire after IAF strike kills 50 people in Qana

U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, speaking after the Israel Air Force strike bombing of the Lebanese village of Qana, said it was time for a cease-fire in the war between Israel and Hizbollah guerrillas.
At least 50 Lebanese citizens were killed, 23 of them children, in the IAF strike on a building. Dozens of others were reportedly trapped in the rubble. Several houses collapsed and a three-story building where about 100 civilians were sheltering was destroyed, witnesses and rescue workers said.
Rice said she was saddened by the bombing and confirmed that she had cancelled a planned trip to Beirut, but would stay in Israel to try to work out a deal for ending the 19-day-old conflict.

Posted by: b | Jul 30 2006 10:38 utc | 19

Yesterday I referred to the Clean Break paper, so I decided to re-read it this morning over coffee and croissants with jam.
The text melds together:
1) Discarding Olso (the clean break part)
2) Anti socialist stance, pro ‘free-market’, pro economic development, etc. seen as making Israel stronger, more independent, etc.
Israel can become self-reliant only by, in a bold stroke rather than in increments,
liberalizing its economy, cutting taxes, relegislating a free-processing zone, and selling-off public lands and enterprises.

3) Along the same lines, cutting free from American aid (explicitly NOT military aid), to become self-reliant.
… to better cooperate with the U.S. to counter real threats to the region and the West’s security.
but:
… continuity with Western values by stressing that Israel is self-
reliant, does not need U.S. troops in any capacity to defend it, including on the Golan Heights, and can manage its own affairs.
… a new vision for the U.S.-Israeli partnership based on self-reliance, maturity and mutuality — not one focused narrowly on territorial disputes.

4) Military actions (the strategy part.) Essentially, getting rid of Saddam and attacking at the Northern border and claiming right of hot pursuit of Palestinians. Syria bears the brunt – drug runners, counterfeitors, terrorists, etc. (This part could use more discussion.)
5) Advice on cooperation with ‘friendly’ Arab States (e.g. Jordan) and reviewing treatment of Arabs in Israel in function of that aim.
6) The usual Orwellian double speak and fascisitic talk of transcending and rejuvenating.
The new government can promote Western values and traditions. Such an approach, which will be well received in the United States, includes “peace for peace,” “peace through strength” and self reliance: the balance of power.
Notable Arab intellectuals have written extensively on their perception of Israel’s floundering and loss of national identity.

6) The text mentions the problem of the Israeli people:
The loss of national critical mass was illustrated best by Israel’s efforts
to draw in the United States to sell unpopular policies domestically …
Israel invited active U.S. intervention … to overcome domestic opposition to “land for peace” concessions the Israeli public could not digest, and to lure Arabs — through money, forgiveness of past sins, and access to U.S. weapons — to negotiate. This strategy, which required funneling American money to repressive and aggressive regimes, was risky, expensive, and very costly….

But then leaves them hanging, one may interpret that points 1) and 5) will take care of them.
This text is written by neo-cons in American think-tanks/Unis, and is adressed to Netanyahu, even giving him direct advice. Some passages are marked TEXT and are suggestions for a possible speech.
Where is the mystery?
The message is clear: Israel must be stronger, more agressive, stop the pussy-footing, deal with its old-fashioned people who want peace; it must re-vamp its hopeless economy; it must stop being so dependent on American aid to no good purpose; and forget minor territorial squabbles. It should not need US troops to defend it but can count on full cooperation for…the strategy – all attacks on other nations or peoples. The contradictions inherent to the whole are covered over with ‘transcendence’ and ‘renewal’.
Forward, march! (Or rather, fly.) Sonic Boom!
Israel as it is now cannot survive without US and Western support; the text lays out what Israel should do.
Until now, Israel did nothing much. It cut some social funding. It repressed the Palestinians and build a defensive and useless wall, thereby continuing what IT wants to do, that is, steal land and get rid of Arabs. That was allowed, after some hesitations. The US took care of Saddam, now it is Israel’s turn.
A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm (1996) – PDF
What realm, one feels like asking.
I’m sort of pushing one pov here and in my last posts, as I think it has merit and is generally not part of the discourse. It does, I think, illuminate many aspects, such as the very poor performance of the IDF, Bush’s sometimes seemingly contradictory attitudes, etc.

Posted by: Noirette | Jul 30 2006 12:07 utc | 20

Song in memory of an (no longer ‘the’) Israeli massacre of innocent Lebanese civilians at Qana:
Qana
Where will you flee
From the vengeance of anger?
In the chests of a whole nation
Mastering anger?
Where will you flee
With our imprisoned right
Where will you flee
From the curse of conscience?
It is the toy of fate! Escape is useless!
You, who have built your security,
With the blood of the children
You won’t be able to wash away this disgrace
O oxeyes of death…
Civilization of destruction
Lebanon won’t grant you peace of defeat!
You won’t get anything from its land
Except suicide!
We all are the South
We all are revolutionaries
And we all are the borders
And our blood is the barrier!
So listen!
You and the great powers behind you:
We’re a nation no longer afraid of destruction
Death for us is just another part of the day
So listen!
We’re a people carrying martyrdom medals
We die in our soil and announce sovereignty
We die in our ashes and proclaim rebirth.

Majida El Roumi – Qana

Posted by: n/a | Jul 30 2006 12:25 utc | 21

Rice did not decide to cancel her trip to Beiruit. Lebanon told her NOT to come, and also that only an immediate ceasefire will be acceptable after this bombing run which has now talled up to more 50 dead, more than half children.

Posted by: Ensley | Jul 30 2006 12:27 utc | 22

“The Israelis are ready to halt the aggression because they are afraid of the unknown,” Nasrallah said, adding “The one pushing for the continuation of the aggression is the US administration.”
Link

Posted by: Noirette | Jul 30 2006 12:28 utc | 23

I managed to watch CNN this morning. There is deep doodoo in the neo-camp now, Hezbollah have effectively stopped the neo-con crusade in it’s tracks.
Send more Israeli troops? They cannot, because Israel is a aircraft-carrier.

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Jul 30 2006 12:39 utc | 24

Thanks Noirette for linking to William Lind.
Lind generally has a very good, and often amusing, take on things.

Posted by: Ms. Manners | Jul 30 2006 13:12 utc | 25

to make clear what someone else has suggested here
even the jackalls from the press have sd there were no arms of any kind at qana
it is murder
pure & simple
the idf ss there were rocket launcher sites
press say there was no such evidence
they are butchers
pure & simple

Posted by: r’giap | Jul 30 2006 13:42 utc | 26

We’re a nation no longer afraid of destruction
Death for us is just another part of the day
So listen!
We’re a people carrying martyrdom medals

That’s the kind of ideology that made Albania the wealthy power it is today and lead to the stupendous living standards of Belfast! But it’s useful for Saudi princes and Israeli arms merchants, so go for it.

Posted by: citizen k | Jul 30 2006 13:42 utc | 27

Lebanese protestors attacked the UN building in Beiruit and trashed it. Here’s the most up to date news on what’s going on there:
Antiwar.com

Posted by: Ensley | Jul 30 2006 13:49 utc | 28

these jackalls who turn within a minute to the lapdogs of their masters
the fictions they elaborate :
hezbollah was launching from that position
transforms into there were no men in the village
transforms into iusrael never makes mistakes
transforms into israel does not target civilians
transforms that the lebanese are responsible
the truth is that israel regards all arabs including the little ones as enemies, as animals, as threats
as the fascict vichy official police chief réné bousquet sd – ” hard tho it is it is necessary to also deport the little ones” – speaking of the deportation of french jews to auschwitz
the idf press officers speak exactly the same language
it is the language of murderers
their arrogance in front of their immoral acts needs to be dressed down by another lesson from hezbollah

Posted by: r’giap | Jul 30 2006 14:39 utc | 29

Quite some irony in the naming of the war

The name Defense Minister Amir Peretz chose for this war, “Bein HaMetzarim,” is justified; the question remains whether it is also appropriate. The name is justified because the war broke out on the eve of the 17th of the month of Tamuz, which, according to Jewish tradition, marks the start of a three-week period known as “Bein HaMetzarim” commemorating the days between the siege of the Temple and its destruction on the 9th of the month of Av. The name is not so appropriate because it is linked in memory with a national disaster of enormous proportions – a 2,000-year exile from the Land of Israel – and the question is whether Peretz took into account all its meanings when he chose it.

Posted by: b | Jul 30 2006 14:52 utc | 30

Some Judas payment for the support of Saudi Arabia and others at the start of the war: US to sell Arab states arms worth $5bn

In the newly proposed sale, battle tanks worth $2.9 billion will be sold to Saudi Arabia to protect their critical infrastructure.
AH-64 Apache helicopters worth $400 million would also go to Saudi Arabia.
The United Arab Emirates and Bahrain would get UH-60M Black Hawk helicopters, the UAE $808 million worth and Bahrain $252 million worth.
Jordan would get a potential $156 million in upgrades to 1,000 of its M113 A1 armoured personnel carriers.
Javelin anti-tank missiles worth $48million would go to Oman under the deals put forward by the Pentagon’s defence security co-operation agency which administers US government-to-government arms sales.

Posted by: b | Jul 30 2006 14:55 utc | 31

from Haaretz

IRANIAN FOREIGN MINISTRY SPOKESMAN HAMID REZA ASEFI:
“The Qana bombing is the outcome of (U.S. Secretary Stae Condoleezza) Rice’s trip to the region. Some American officials should be put on trial for the crimes in Lebanon,” the official IRNA news agency quoted Asefi as saying.
POPE BENEDICT XVI:
“In the name of God, I call on all those responsible for this spiral of violence so that weapons are immediately laid down on all sides,” the Pope said in his Angelus blessing.

from PRE-PRESIDENT BUSH

“I’m a uniter, not a divider. I refuse to play the politics of putting people into groups and pitting one group against another.”

True ‘dat. Before the Bush/Cheney politics of unity are done working their miracles in the world, we’ll have a ecumenical movement.

Posted by: citizen | Jul 30 2006 15:14 utc | 32

why doesn’t the evil dwarf wolf blitzer set up shop inside the offices of the israeli defence force – his complete absence of any form of objectivity is enough to make any civilised human being throw up

Posted by: r’giap | Jul 30 2006 15:18 utc | 33

Wolf Blitzer started his career as a correspondent for the Jerusalem Post. Which side do you expect him to take?

Posted by: Ensley | Jul 30 2006 15:24 utc | 34

“Defeat Hezbollah?” “Victory in Iraq?”
It seems to me that Islamic governments and groups around the world can now simply sit back, give support to Hezbollah and to groups in Iraq, essentially waging jihad wth a checkbook. Meahwhile, Israel and the US toil on alone, depleting their treasuries and spilling the blood of their soldiers. The factors that led to the fall of the Soviet Union are many and complex, but chief among them has to be their ill-fated adventure in Afghanistan, an open-ended struggle with ill defined goals and an even less defined path to victory. Sound familiar?
Meanwhile, neocon theories continue to fall like ducks at a carnival shooting gallery. To wit: the ideal that attacking an Islamic state will cause people to turn against the mullahs and embrace the freedomizers from across the sea should now, after Israel’s disastrous “mistake” that killed Lebanese women and children, be finally put to rest. It’s not working in Lebanon, and it wouldn’t have worked in Iran, no matter what carnage junkie William Kristol says.

Posted by: montysano | Jul 30 2006 15:42 utc | 35

the programme of lies that the israeli ambassador at the united nations is statesmanship in the grand tradition of that champagne salesman, herr ribbentrop
they lie, they obcufacate, they are aided in this by the complete majority of media who perform their bloody role with an indignity that has become habitual
this is becoming like some polyphonic macbeth – so steeped in blood -it is any wonder – that anyone can come out with clean hands
this murderer-in-chief who is the ambassador for israel is incapable in any real sense of denying the massacres that have become commonplace, the ‘accidents’ that kills people on the routes of lebanon after they had been asked to do so by the people that then bombed then, the ‘accidents’ that leads to the murder of now a dozen united nation officials, these people who try to compare firecrackers of hezbollah with the massive bombardement of lebanese cities, towns & villages, this state that compares its campaign of terror to the war of resistance carried out by hezbollah

Posted by: r’giap | Jul 30 2006 16:16 utc | 36

i too cannot contain my fury in the face of the lies they tell from the idf & its masters
i do not nor can i support islamic fundamentalism but when others have renounced their responsibility to the people then these fighters must at least be given credit for their courage & steadfastness in front of an enemy that want to do what it has already done to the palestinians of the occupied territory
you might want top call it by another name
but i shall call it a war of extinction, of people, of scrtuctures, of ideas & of hope

Posted by: r’giap | Jul 30 2006 16:21 utc | 37

Some Judas payment for the support of Saudi Arabia and others at the start of the war
preparing the battlefield.

Posted by: annie | Jul 30 2006 16:22 utc | 38

Noirette see clean break .
I’m reading Robert Parry’s book and it’s incredible how this line of morons has succeeded in US politics despite an unbroken record of failure.
The difference between a functional and a broken governing system is whether failure is rewarded.

Posted by: citizen k | Jul 30 2006 17:04 utc | 39

From A Clean Break: “The new government can promote Western values and traditions.”
They, of course, were talking about the soon-to-be-elected Likud government, but the Olmert gang is a perfectly adequate substitute. And if by “Western traditions,” they meant the traditions of the trans-Atlantic slave trade, Wounded Knee, Amritsar, the Battle of Algiers, etc. Then I’d say they were on to something.
“The name Defense Minister Amir Peretz chose for this war, “Bein HaMetzarim . . . marks the start of a three-week period known as “Bein HaMetzarim” commemorating the days between the siege of the Temple and its destruction on the 9th of the month of Av.”
I have to say I’m constantly surprised by Lucifer’s erudite sense of irony. He truly is a man of wealth and taste.

Posted by: billmon | Jul 30 2006 18:04 utc | 40

U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, speaking after the Israel Air Force strike bombing of the Lebanese village of Qana, said it was time for a cease-fire in the war between Israel and Hizbollah guerrillas.
Is there any doubt that the US sees itself in ever-deeper trouble because its problem child is in a manic phase?

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 30 2006 18:04 utc | 41

thx link citizen

Posted by: Noirette | Jul 30 2006 18:07 utc | 42

i am wondering whether sec general annan can even get his limited demand of a cessation-of-hostilities

Posted by: r’giap | Jul 30 2006 18:15 utc | 43

but listening to the butcher bolton i am not even optimistic for annan’s limited demand

Posted by: r’giap | Jul 30 2006 18:16 utc | 44

The really funny part about Clean Break that everybody skips over and forgot is the part where Israel becomes “independent” and no longer takes money from the US. Hahaha.
Even Bolton & Condi seem a little like they’re trying to separate themselves from the problem child… “We urge the Israelis to exercise the utmost restraint, etc….” Bolton looks like someone punched him in the face, not his usual arrogant mug, despite what came out of his mouth.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 30 2006 18:23 utc | 45

Billmon: Saw that “unfortunate” choice of name. The idea that Bush and Olmert are all in the employ of Iran security forces gets harder and harder to resist.
Why was the Second Temple destroyed? Because of baseless hatred (excessive zealotry) – Talmud.
But it looks like a professional has already noted this.

Posted by: citizen k | Jul 30 2006 18:30 utc | 46

Did someone say the only one missing here is Ollie North?
Well, lookie there, here he is on CNN right now!

Posted by: 2nd anonymous | Jul 30 2006 18:39 utc | 47

oops… that was Fox. CNN is really busy working its behind off giving the “other side’s” point of view about how those civilians were being used as human shields, etc.

Posted by: 2nd anonymous poster | Jul 30 2006 18:42 utc | 48

2nd
tho there are some here who imagine themselves military strategist – there are two things that are obviouslly clear :
hezbollah is winning on the ground
the israeli defence forces are lying
what is more important is that what israel is carrying out it is carrying out savagely whether you want to call it a pincer movement, a sack, pinpointed action etc & the corresponding murder of innocents are not accidents but they are planned deeply in the strategy & in the day to day tactics of israel
what is also absolutely clear whether it is mark regev or the istraeli ambassador at the u n – they are covering up their war crimes as quickly as is possible & as quickly as their protectos bolton & blair & rice are capable of giving
i will repeat – you do not have to be a disciple of hezbollah to not feel that their courage merits respect – as you might have done in the 50’s in defence of the hungarians in front of russian tanks
but no, no – the enemy is always on the other side, the enemy is monstrous, the enemy is ruthless – malooga was correct to suggest that there exists a naiveté even amongst ourselves about the criminal nature of the military enterprises in lebanon, occupîed palestine, iraq & afghanistan
you can argue all you want but the responsibility & i repeat that word the responsibility of these crimes falls squarely with the empire & its vassalls. point

Posted by: r’giap | Jul 30 2006 19:05 utc | 49

Hello giap:
I would say the responsibility is shared, which I suppose is your point.
However, what is clear about the spin on CNN this morning is that it’s the usual product of AIPAC emails demanding that they show “the other side.” This is the reason why, for example, many tragedies that happen to the Palestinians (like little girls attacked by settlers for the crime of going to school) never get reported. The minute one is reported, the emails immediately start about not showing “the other side” and charges of anti-Semitism abound based on this premise.
BTW, I suppose this belongs at the other new topic, but I think Billmon is making a big mistake referring to Hezbollah as “clueless hotheads.” If anything, it seems to me Nasrallah is a success where others are a failure because he has something many others in “that world” do not: a very clear, strong, highly delineated political line. If anything, this person is extremely oriented toward a statement of clear position and he sticks to it, drawing a clear line about who he is, what he stands for, who and what and where he will attack and will not, etc. I’d say it was his greatest strength, especially in comparison to his surroundings, and to miss that is to miss seeing what’s there and what is happening here.

Posted by: 2nd anonymous | Jul 30 2006 19:14 utc | 50

2nd
no, ‘hotheads’ is about the last thing i would call this disciplened organisation

Posted by: r’giap | Jul 30 2006 19:19 utc | 51

Every organization has its hotheads — it’s wired into the species. Nasrallah has done an outstanding job of managing his side of the war so far. But the slaughter of so many innocents, and the predictable response by this fictional “world community” the Americans and Israelis keep talking about, is going to drive some Hizbullah members, including some senior members, completely bonkers. The pressure to respond is going to be enormous, and Nasrallah is both a politician and a human being. I don’t know how he will respond, but there’s always the risk he will feel forced to concede the point to maintain his own authority.

Posted by: Billmon | Jul 30 2006 19:45 utc | 52

not arguing
but we can’t have it both ways. he can’t be a hothead & a puppet of iran/syria at the same time
i know very little of their cadre only what has been wriiten in recent books & they really do seem very disciplined, more disciplined than say hamas whose organisation is much more fractured & under a great deal more pressure most of the time

Posted by: r’giap | Jul 30 2006 19:54 utc | 53

Giap & Billmon:
I just saw the sequence that Giap wrote about on CNN: where the Lebanese officer says (paraphrased by me) “The Israelis are trying to turn us into monsters, but we will not respond by being monsters. Here is our response.” And he throws the flowered branches onto the bodies of the children.
And I think that is evidence of a kind of discipline that does not only belong to Nasrallah but to Lebanon as a whole. The Lebanese military has a lot at stake here too. Their whole country is being attacked and it is clear that the whole population feels it is under attack together, not just Hezbollah. And yet, there is a line.
The whole of Lebanon has been through a horrible civil war that has made one thing very clear: the need to have a consistent pattern of political action and perspective that solidifies union between its disparate ethnic and religious groups. And right now, despite what has happened to them, they are sticking to that in every single dimension, and every party represented, no matter who is speaking, has been sticking to that.
No doubt, Billmon, you are correct that everybody’s got their hotheads. It’s human nature. But the story of Nasrallah in particular is a story of a clearly delineated line and political discipline worthy of any old leftie debate or theologian’s razor. But that (non-Hezbollah) Lebanese man’s flowered branch gesture tells you everything you need to know about just how much people understand about the political implications of their response. I’d call it worthy of King’s non-violent strategies implemented right there on camera.

Posted by: 2nd anonymous poster | Jul 30 2006 19:54 utc | 54

2nd
just a point of information, friend
what arab tv is available on sattelite in the us
in france we have most except for al amara which was blocked in france

Posted by: r’giap | Jul 30 2006 19:57 utc | 55

Thanks, giap.
It is just short of a miracle that sequence was shown on CNN smack in the middle of Sunday afternoon. I guess they felt they’d done enough to appease the emailers and could really report news.
In fact, I think all along the action has been too fast to control completely – I’ve been almost amazed at the information CNN really has reported from Lebanon. It’s usually more controlled than that when it comes to this region.

Posted by: 2nd anonymous poster | Jul 30 2006 20:02 utc | 56

PS Giap:
On CNN the clip was long enough so that one heard the man say he was a military officer, and was not supposed to speak on camera, but that he would do one thing… and he proceeded to order someone to give cut the flowered branch so he could throw it on the bodies of the children and make his statement about not being turned into monsters even though he felt this was what the Israelis would trying to turn them into (although he was dressed in civilian clothes). And speaking of discipline, I found his “dispassion” in the face of so much death notable, but I suppose if he was military that would give the reason.
One cannot dispel the irony here of who is clearly sticking to discipline and who is not, who understands the power of non-violence and who does not.

Posted by: 2nd anonymous poster | Jul 30 2006 20:12 utc | 57

And the Lebanese Army just prevented Israeli helicopters from landing troops.
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L30832182.htm

Posted by: Ensley | Jul 30 2006 20:18 utc | 58

2nd
cnn seems from here & i’m watching the international version – out of 1 hour it is about 35 minutes of interviews with different members of the israeli propaganda ministry – either direct employees of subcontracted propagandists. about 50 minutes is given in effect to the israeli position
we have a minister or two of lebanon who seem to cry their impotence
you have once every couple of hours someone who filters the arab media & press – essentially sugesting – it is they – not cnn or the idf – who are using propaganda
i know i shouldn’ be surprised but their guile is gruesome & their talking points completely undifferentiated from white house/idf & their commentary so crude – i would be ashamed if any of their ‘journalist’ possessed any integrity at all
& every time there is an arab guest – “we”ll have to leave it there” – meanwhile i have to put up with an uninterrupted 20 minutes of mark regev or his female clone
centrally, the question of proportionality is completely absent

Posted by: r’giap | Jul 30 2006 20:51 utc | 59

“every time there is an arab guest – “we”ll have to leave it there” – meanwhile i have to put up with an uninterrupted 20 minutes of mark regev or his female clone”
It’s the full-court press. If Israel were winning, it would be the usual three quarter court press. But Israel isn’t winning.

Posted by: billmon | Jul 30 2006 21:09 utc | 60

meanwhile, at the other side of the empire things were suspicious and reassurances from the Europe against populism were not being welcomed.

Posted by: citizen k | Jul 30 2006 21:15 utc | 61

watching arab tv here is so totally different – there is no attempt at all to sanitise what you are seeing & tho i have no passion for such images – it seems to me absolutely necessary that public(s) are absolutely conscious of what weapons do
the images of the children are truly awful – these beautiful little dolls torn apart yet who seem to be sleeping, these obviouslly poor people being brought up as if in some biblical scene
it is troubling
but what in the end is truly troubling are the images today of such elemental fury it is almost impossible to watch human beings so close to who & what they are
it seems indecent from france that i see people in their profoundest intimité & whatever cnnskybbc want to say these are real people not propagandists & that’s what mùakes it so uncomfortable
the marc regevs we have become used to through the ministrations of karl rove & whatever hood gets the job of press secretary but i am always surprised that they always pass the level of decency – they gloat – even when their power is being shown to not be as invincible as the myth of yesterday
& thes arab tv’s are far more open to the contexts of what is happening outside their partiucular tribune. that cannot be said of the western press. they all fall behind like good soldiers. except they are not

Posted by: r’giap | Jul 30 2006 21:24 utc | 62

there was an interesting compare & contrast
most arab media covered the massacre at qama
western media focused on the riots at the beirut offficef of u n attempting to prove implicity that the arab mob is not so different from common savages
the compare & contrast was both skilled & intelligent & only marginally propagandist. they were indeed far more like journalists than their western ‘colleagues’

Posted by: r’giap | Jul 30 2006 21:54 utc | 63

Our hope for peace for boys and girls everywhere extends across the world, especially in the Middle East,” the president said before the start of a children’s baseball game at the White House.

A great humanitarian in the model of King Leopold.

Israel has agreed to suspend its aerial bombardment of southern Lebanon for 48 hours, effective immediately, to allow for an investigation into Sunday’s bombing that killed 54 civilians, a U.S. State Department official said early Monday.

The second story is from Haaretz and it is interesting that the statement comes from central office and not from the Poodle branch office.

Posted by: citizen k | Jul 30 2006 21:58 utc | 64

It’s the full-court press. If Israel were winning, it would be the usual three quarter court press.
It’s amazing, truly. Giap, even 10 minutes of the real carnage is something someone had to sneak by the usual barrage of accusations because the accusers are way too busy to catch everything. And things are happening too fast. I even saw someone on CNN today actually use the words “collective punishment.” Believe me, US audiences usually never see this stuff. CNN gets pressure from more than email, btw, any time the violent reality of real bigotry shows up on its screens.

Posted by: 2nd anonymous poster | Jul 30 2006 22:02 utc | 65

Thanks for the note on the story from Haaretz, citizen k.
Israel agrees to 48-hour halt in IAF activity over south Lebanon to probe Qana strike
By Ze’ev Schiff and Amos Harel, Haaretz Correspondents, and Agencies
Israel has agreed to suspend its aerial bombardment of southern Lebanon for 48 hours, effective immediately, to allow for an investigation into Sunday’s bombing that killed 54 civilians, a U.S. State Department official said early Monday.
Israel will also coordinate with the United Nations to allow a 24-hour window for residents of southern Lebanon to leave the area if they wish, State Department spokesman Adam Ereli told a briefing in Jerusalem.
Check out the slight conflict between the first and second paragraphs, the different announcements from different places.
One thing about CNN International coverage last night (regular CNN channel was showing CNN Int’l): The coverage made it clear, repeatedly, that these people were too poor to go anywhere, despite warnings. Furthermore the roads were too dangerous anyway.

Posted by: 2nd anonymous poster | Jul 30 2006 22:11 utc | 66

BTW, is this a suspension of an air war in order to go for a land strike, a la Billmon’s writing today?

Posted by: 2nd anonymous poster | Jul 30 2006 22:13 utc | 67

Suicide bombing scaled up to the state level today.

Posted by: biklett | Jul 30 2006 22:22 utc | 68

2nd
i imagine it will not waste any opportunity. but like all brutes it will not march where it does not have massive air support
i wonder if beirut will have a quiet night

Posted by: r’giap | Jul 30 2006 22:23 utc | 69

Well, not everyone in the IDF drank that cool-aid at the PNAC party it seems.

Nor, it seems, do IDF officers take seriously the more graphic defense of IAF targeting, as justified because Hezbollah uses human shields. Israel also co-locates many of its basing operations in cities and amongst the civilian population — simply because of the ease of logistics operations that such co-locations necessitate. “The human shield argument just doesn’t wash and we know it,” an IDF commander says. “We don’t expect Hezbollah to deploy in the open with a sign that says ‘here we are.'” cite via Juan Cole

Imagine that.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 30 2006 22:30 utc | 70

I continue to believe that the real story is just East of Lebanon. See this and this.

Explaining his use of the word “defeat” to describe the consequences of the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in 2003, Dujarric said: “The maximum U.S. goal was to establish a pro-U.S. democracy in Iraq. The minimum goal was to establish some kind of semi-stable Iraqi government that would be somewhat pro-American. That is all a failure because there is no government in Iraq. No one rules Iraq. The government in Iraq has as much control over Iraq as you and I have; the authority we have is basically the authority over my living room. That’s where our power stops.”
The United States’ ouster of Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein, Dujarric said, was a strategic blunder. “The invasion of Iraq was called Operation Iraqi Freedom. Its correct title is ‘Operation Iran Empowerment’ because by removing Saddam Hussein, who was an enemy of Iran, and by empowering individuals [in Iraq] who are much more friendly toward Iran as well as by undermining several of Iraq’s neighbors, the consequences of the invasion of Iraq have been an enormous improvement in Iran’s strategic situation,” he said, adding that the U.S. occupation of Iraq “is the greatest thing that has happened to Iran’s mullahs, in some ways, since the Islamic Revolution [in 1979]; it’s kind of ironic that President Bush, who is portrayed as an enemy of Iran, has actually been demonstrated to be the greatest supporter the Islamic Republic of Iran has overseas.”

Posted by: citizen k | Jul 30 2006 22:41 utc | 71

nobody’s lost this war yet, except of course all those murdered civilians.
I have made tortuous arguments defending a thesis the u.s. benefits from regional escalation of the conflict. of course, a green zone hostage crisis or a wmd attack on a “superbase” in anbar could problematize the bush doctrine (“anbar”–everytime it’s said, I hear “malabar” instead; a kind of audio-psychosis).
well, my ideas about this have been less than promiscuous, but this this from rgiap’s belovedly loopy counterpunch via smirkingchimp cuts to the chase. things are still on track.

Posted by: slothrop | Jul 30 2006 22:45 utc | 72

did i understand the chimp correctly “all my sympathy goes out to those who died”
i’m sure they’re all the more joyous for that

Posted by: r’giap | Jul 30 2006 23:13 utc | 73

I assume this is not an actual ad. regardless, no part of reality can ever be safely exempted from commercial exploitation.
exploited: expropriate the expropriators
exploiters: we already did that

Posted by: slothrop | Jul 30 2006 23:42 utc | 74

Sloth:
The neo-cons think (if we can use that word) that “double or nothing” is a way to recoup their lost bet in Iraq. What’s most astounding about these guys is how little they allow reality to interfere with their ideas. Their ME policy makes the Great Leap Forward and Enron’s business plan seem sound, prudent, well-reasoned, and carefully planned enterprises.

Posted by: citizen k | Jul 30 2006 23:43 utc | 75

sorry for posting the ad. it’s actually pretty old. here’s a bit more about it.
no doubt somebody here posted a link to it long ago.

Posted by: slothrop | Jul 31 2006 0:29 utc | 76

“The human shield argument just doesn’t wash and we know it,” an IDF commander says.
It is abundantly clear that the Israelis have no compunction in murdering people of any age or martial indisposition.
The idea of human shields wouldn’t work with the Israelis if it were employed.

Posted by: John Francis Lee | Jul 31 2006 0:34 utc | 77

it would seem donald rumsfield must run language courses for ‘corresponants’
on cnn, a correspondant told us how the film explained how hezbollah did this but then sd the video was not of qama, & then sd they did have a video of qama but however the video was not actually from quama, but you understand the general principal which however perhaps those at the press office at the idf have the superior intelligence to comprehend
really there is a business to be made there & here i would advise eveyone to go out & buy martin heidegger tommorrow which will help in describing ‘in’ ‘and’ ‘here’ & other terms so temporel surely we here are too stupid to understand
heidegger will help us get through nic-whatever-his-fucking-name-is his babble about what is passing in beirut
however the waddle of nic w-h-f-n-i when he’s running from israeli bombs with his newfound friends in the local chapter oif hezbollah. i seriously he deemands advice from his confrere andersoncooper – who knows how to whisper & talk about light changing & how it gets darker & that all the boys from that chapter follow him on their vespas talking into their motorolas & he can tell nic w h f n i how to get angry with those hezbollah fellows when they do not understand who exactly you are – most of all he could tell you how to pose against the wall with weary eyes imagining yourself hemingway south of the border
or he could talk to the butcher bolton about conclusary language & why the veto is like another big baton with which to hit arabs around the head & body

Posted by: r’giap | Jul 31 2006 0:41 utc | 78

I just saw the sequence that Giap wrote about on CNN: where the Lebanese officer says (paraphrased by me) “The Israelis are trying to turn us into monsters, but we will not respond by being monsters. Here is our response.” And he throws the flowered branches onto the bodies of the children.
I can’t stomach TV at all anymore, and don’t feel like buying one for this new apartment. But the above, as described, and confirmed to me by someone else who claims to have seen it reported also on MSNBC, strikes me as a Tian’anmen tank-type media moment. If Hezbollah is smart enough to stop firing rockets and accept what everyone knows is a victory, and somehow the world gets through this without further war with Iran and Syria, 15 years from now that’s the type of moment everyone will remember as having helped turn the whole thing around. Assuming first that it receives the kind of wide-spread and frequent showing the media usually give (used to give? we’ll find out.) such an action.

Posted by: mats | Jul 31 2006 3:14 utc | 79

Mats: I hope so as well, I have great hopes for Nasrullah based on knowing nothing at all. But I should point out that the Government of China survived Tienamen and many of the protestors did not.

Posted by: citizen k | Jul 31 2006 3:20 utc | 80

I took off for Beijing at age 16 in 1986, and I lived there and in Kunming through 1991; I happened to leave Beijing for Hong Kong about 3 weeks before the tanks rolled in. I said at the time, cynically yes, but I stand by it more or less, that the entire demonstration had nothing whatsoever to do with Democracy, as Chinoy and Bernhard Shaw kept telling everyone in the Washington Post and on CNN, but rather was all about blue jeans and color TV’s. And boy, did they get them. Check the year-over-year statistics for new car purchases in China.
So, no, one horrible night in Beijing aside, I don’t draw a parallel from that to this in terms of seriousness of the underlying struggle. This one is far more elemental, and of more immediate impact for the world at large. But the description of that clip sure makes it sound to me like the type of thing the media can dramatize, set to swelling strings, and play over and over as a feel-good feel-bad moment. Producers were born to find such segments. Will that be the treatment this clip gets? I wonder.

Posted by: mats | Jul 31 2006 3:59 utc | 81

“If Hezbollah is smart enough to stop firing rockets and accept what everyone knows is a victory”
This is where we find out how disciplined Hizbullah is, and how smart Sheikh Nasrallah is. If I’m right, and Israel’s 48-hour aerial pause is in the nature of an offer, then he has a chance to take his winnings off the table — just as Shrub did after the fall of Baghdad, when the Iranians came hat in hand looking for a deal.
Or, Nasrallah and the Hez can be like Shrub and the GOP and let their balls do their thinking for them. I don’t think that’s their style, but I don’t really know all that much about Hizbollah. They’ve got to be on a emotional high right now that won’t quite. Hubris knows no cultural or ethnic boundaries.

Posted by: billmon | Jul 31 2006 4:32 utc | 82

Israel cannot be considered a democracy. It’s treatment of the Palestinians is like that of Apartheid South Africa. Its actions in Lebanon are like those of the vile Slobodan Milosevic regime of Serbia.
Ehud Olmert is the new face of evil the world must remember. Radovan Karadzic, Milosevic and Saddam have to take a back seat for now. The US of A like to tell us it is Persian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is the new face of evil. I don’t see Ahmadinejad invading and killing thousands with his army.
Olmert is as vile as any of the evil leaders of the 1990s in Yugoslavia, Rwanda, Iraq, Afghanistan and Chechnya. He is as responsible for as many civilian deaths as al Qaeda. Yet, America support this tyrant. Well, then again, America are doing the same in Iraq (albeit to rid the world of another tyrant). How come America don’t treat Olmert’s vile invasion of Lebanon the same as they treated Saddam’s vile invasion of Kuwait of exactly 16 years ago?
The Jews had it tough in WW2. Time changes everything. They are at present the aggressors and should not insult the victims of the holocaust to excuse their current NAZI-LIKE (yes!) aggression.

Posted by: Bhull | Aug 2 2006 19:01 utc | 83

Yes. I see your point. America like to criticise Iran for rhetoric (“Israel should be erased from the pages of history” is what Ahmadinejad said in Persian: NOT wiped off the map as translated in the West: this is MILD rhetoric compared to other anti-Israeli rhetoric from the Arab and Persian world). Indeed, many Arab allies of the US use similar rhetoric and of course Saddam used it before and after falling out of favour with the US. It was ignored by the US when Saddam was an ally and Saddam’s rhetoric made Ahmadinejad’s look pale.
Does the US know you can do a PhD in holocaust denial in Saudi Arabia? Yet, this is an ally. Ahmadinejad merely pointed out that the Jewish state uses the holocaust as an excuse and this is wrong. again, a whole lot was translated from Persian into Western languages again with propaganda reasons attached.
Besides, whatever Ahmadinejad says, that’s all it is. Words. Fiery rhetoric has come out of Arab and Muslim countries since the time of Nasser. Israel has invaded a country, killed thousands. No comparison.

Posted by: Tommy | Aug 3 2006 13:00 utc | 84