Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
July 20, 2006
Current Developments + WB: The Clock is Running

(Billmon and I posted in parallel on the issue. So here is the novelty of a combined thread.)

Billmon:

The Clock is Running

Bernhard:

After a preparing and devastating air campaign, Israel is now entering Lebanon with ground troops.

The strategic target seems to be to clear some 20 miles of Lebanese land of any Lebanese human and to establish and hold a line at the Litani River. This is a repetition of the 1978 Operation Litani which, at that time, was aimed against a Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) force in South Lebanon. Israel more or less did win that tactical move, but made no strategic gain and the costs on both sides were high.

Unlike the PLO, essentially refugees not really liked by the Lebanese, Hisbollah is an indigenous force. So the outcome may very well differ this time. In response to Israel’s action in 1978, the UN set out resolution 425, demanding a retreat of Israel behind the international accepeted border. Israel did fullfill that resolution’s demand  – in June 2000 – except for giving up the Sheeba Farms. This, and Lebanese prisoners in Israel’s hands, gave/give Hisbollah a permanent issue to keep the struggle going.

(The Katami river, like the Sheeba farms area, is a major water source in the general arid area. It does have real strategic value. So maybe Lebanon will get it back in 2028.)

In May 2006 Israel assassinated two leaders of Islamic Jihad in Sidon, Lebanon. This led to a few small rockets being fired at Israeli military outposts and responding serious air attacks. The crisis was finally ended through UN mediation. It was, to my knowledge, the first open Israeli action in Lebanon since 2000 and the starting point for today’s hot conflict. (BTW: Did you see this mentioned in any recent MSM article?)

While watching the current developments, in horror, I am sure the big chessboard is set up for an even deadlier game. This is not about a two Israeli soldiers taken POW. This is not about Lebanon or Hizbollah at all.

The current war is a small proxy for the fight between the US and Iran, a third world county by any means, and even bigger, between the US and anybody else about the control of the most important world energy ressources, i.e. direct or indirect control over all of the Middle East.

I have no idea what the next steps in that war may be, but some incident that will lead to a near term involvement of a very, very weak Syria is likely. From there on, your guess is as good as mine.

Comments

I think every the most ardent Israelophiles are going to have to admit that if this is all the IDF will accomplish, then Israel’s current leaders have acted criminally. Lebensraum wasn’t an acceptable political objective in 1939. Still isn’t.
More to the point, most Israelis, left and right, will probably also reach this conclusion.

Posted by: Brian J. | Jul 20 2006 19:35 utc | 1

Turkish Commandos on Iraqi Border
Turkey, who warned Iraq and the United States just a day ago that it was “losing patience” over the presence of the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) on Kandil Mountain, is now preparing for a cross-border operation.
Commando squads were deployed to the Iraqi border and massive inland operations are now being prepared.

As, Stevie Wonder sang:

So, it’s gettin’ ready to blow
It’s gettin’ ready to show
Somebody shot off at the mouth and
We’re getting ready to know
It’s gettin’ ready to drop
It’s gettin’ ready to shock
Somebody done turned up the heater
An’ it’s gettin’ ready to pop!

-Stevie Wonder – ‘Skeletons’

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Jul 20 2006 20:27 utc | 2

Welcome to the The Pressure-Cooker Theory at work…
Leading Saudi Sheik Pronounces Fatwa Against Hezbollah
Secretaries Rumsfeld and Rice, please tell us AGAIN how wonderfully things are going in Iraq!~Mike Rivero of WRH blog

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Jul 20 2006 20:51 utc | 3

“Leading Saudi Sheik Pronounces Fatwa Against Hezbollah”
It’s the New York Sun. You might just as well link to the Israeli Information Ministry.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 20 2006 20:59 utc | 4

b, in an nutshell… you say it.
The current war is a small proxy for the fight between the US and Iran, a thrid world county by any means, and even bigger, between the US and anybody else about the control of the most important world energy ressources, i.e. direct or indirect control over all of the Middle East.
Great post.

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Jul 20 2006 20:59 utc | 5

Biilmon:
The Lebanon war, in other words, may be primarily a demonstration project — a way of sending a message, just like the ones being written on IDF artillery shells by little Israeli girls, although to a different address.
In no way is this a “demonstration”. As I mentioned before, I believe this is to soften Lebanon up, both militarily and by destroying infrastructure (future supply lines of Syria and Iran) for the big Cheney/Israeli hope of bombing Iran in the near future.

Posted by: Rick Happ | Jul 20 2006 21:06 utc | 6

@#4
How perceptive of you! Truth be known, all comunication is propaganda.
There is just as many signal to noise ratio factors in the National Enquirer to choose from as the NYT/Warpost. In todays reality is there a difference?
The tabloids are often picked up by the American media, and contrary to popular belief they are often right.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Jul 20 2006 21:14 utc | 7

Brian, it seems that the paltry results of the stated military objectives really are leading the military establishment into a kind of panic, as Billmon’s theory went a few days ago. Hezbollah doesn’t seem to have been hurt that much.
So, the alternative strategy: let’s go for all the civilian infrastructure and Lebanese government targets possible, with the supposed objective of making it harder for Hezbollah to resupply. Who cares about collateral damage anyway? Does it count?
And I think you’re right about most Israelis.

Posted by: 2nd anonymous poster | Jul 20 2006 21:16 utc | 8

How in hell could anyone be in doubt as to where this is going?
America’s ultimate strategic enemy is China, because that rising empire can and will totally eclipse America economically early in this century —
unless stopped, slowed, prevented . . .
China can afford to develop, extract, and purchase all the petroleum and natural gas in the Middle East and Caspian Basin without issue. They’re friendly, and their money is good.
America cannot outbid China to do this, without borrowing trillions from China. So America is not in the game, economically. We’re set to lose control of that marketplace.
Solution — turn to the Dark Side. Go all pirate on their asses. Invade and occupy the Middle East, topple their governments, and install client states sworn to do all their business with American companies.
America simply must make these nation states an offer they cannot refuse. The alternative is to decline spectacularly as a world power.
Iran is the single biggest obstacle to this program. Iran is the show stopper. As long as Iran is not a client state of America, America cannot continue to pursue empire. China and India and Europe and Brazil and Japan step in and do business we cannot do.
This economic threat to America is the whole problem.
This is how wars start.
By any means, by any excuse, under any umbrella from a war on terra to outright lebensraum to nobly carrying the White Man’s Burden — America has to be the maypole in the Middle East or the region defaults to China and others who have economies that actually produce things.
If we leave Iran in place, America forfeits the Great Game.
If President Cheney and his Amazing Meat Puppet do not strike Iran before November, it will only be because they feel confident of retaining Congress.
Meaning they can wait until the spring of 2007 to topple Tehran and put the Shah’s son in charge.
Their view is it has to be done. Has to be. Has to be. Has to be.
A lot of Democrats feel the same way.

Posted by: Antifa | Jul 20 2006 21:35 utc | 9

http://www.beirutlive.blogspot.com/

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Jul 20 2006 21:55 utc | 10

Billmon:
The downside of this strategy … is that it could actually strengthen Hezbollah’s political grip in Lebanon, not loosen it. As retired Lt. Gen. (one of ours) William Odom told the Jewish Week: “If they’re bombing infrastructure and doing these punishing raids into Beirut, they’re essentially going to turn Lebanon into a failed state. And if they do that, the state is certainly not going to put an army down on the border.”
The act is done. Lebanon is now a failed state. My suspicion is that the Lebanon military is now “unofficially” joined with Hezbollah. Not sure why Billmon is quoting Odom’s words to the Jewish Week. Again, no need to state watered down versions of the obvious. I assume Israel will massively move ground troops in very soon. Bernhard is correct, Israel will be establishing a line at least to the Litani River.

Posted by: Rick Happ | Jul 20 2006 21:55 utc | 11

@Antifa – that rings true to me. It is clear that the USA has no long term economic plan in place, and time is running out on supplying the war machine.
Stratfor’s take on this skirmish:

When we back off and look at this from the 50,000-foot level, it becomes apparent that Israel is engaged in an American-style air campaign…
It seems clear to us that the Israelis have informed Washington of their general war plan and been told that the United States would not compel an early conclusion. That would give the Israelis time to attack Hezbollah and allow, they assume, for much less resistance during the ground phase, as has been the U.S. experience. Evidence for this has been the tap dance by Condoleezza Rice over when she will visit the Middle East. First it was said to be July 21, then it was to be July 23, and now it’s just up in the air. The uncertainty about Rice’s trip has served to block other diplomatic initiatives. Since the U.S. secretary of state is on her way at some point, no one else will try to work a diplomatic deal. But having blocked the possibility of other initiatives, Rice has become vague on her plans, buying Israel time.

Posted by: PeeDee | Jul 20 2006 21:58 utc | 12

antifa
splendid!

Posted by: r’giap | Jul 20 2006 21:58 utc | 13

Maybe so Antifa, but China and Russia may have something to say about the US turning Iran into a client state.
They may stop munching popcorn on the sidelines while we sink in the ME quicksand and actually throw us an anvil.
Short of the US going full metal pariah state and dropping nukes on Iran, I can’t see them bringing Iran to heel.
As for as the Shrubco dreams of empire, good riddance. Just attempting to dominate the world militarily is bankrupting us morally and financially.
The French live pretty well without dominating the world.

Posted by: ran | Jul 20 2006 22:00 utc | 14

The problem is that every time the IDF have entered Lebanon since the initial Hizbollah incursion into Israel last week is that the IDF seem to have come off second-best. When they went in “hot pursuit” of the Hizbollah snatch squad their lead tank got blowed up within 50 metres of crossing the border, with all four crew killed. Yesterday they lost at least 2 special forces operatives in an incursion. Today they seem to have lost between 2 and 4 killed in one incursion ( plus the embarrassment of having bits of Israeli military kit being shown on Al Manar TV ) and lost either 1 or 2 vehicles.
The reality is that the IDF don’t seem to be able to get more than 100 metres across the border without getting into firefights with extremely competent opponents who have had plenty of time to prepare the ground in their favour, who don’t run, and who inflict casualties; I would also imagine that the IDF is now also concerned about the possibility of more of their troops being taken prisoner.
They don’t seem to have tried any helicopter assaults yet, which suggests to me that they are extremely worried about a Hizbullah capacity to shoot down their aircraft.
I’ve always been skeptical that the IDF will actually mount any kind of invasion of Lebanon – been there, done that and didn’t like the outcome. There is also the growing likelihood that far from ousting Hizbullah they will in fact rally a significant portion of the non-Shia Lebanese population around Hizbullah and will end up in a war against Lebanon tout court.
There’s no strategy in play here, at least from the Israeli side of the fence – it’s just a pre-programmed response that they’ve been pinging for decades now.
BBC is now reporting that 2 IDF helicopters have collided on the border with attendant casualties. They’re beginning to look incompetent and flat-footed.

Posted by: dan | Jul 20 2006 22:04 utc | 15

Uncle $cam’s post points out the dangers of this type of retaliation, which sane people had hoped died out with the Nazi’s in Yugoslavia and France. The tactic is that when one ‘legitimate’ military target (ie 1 soldier) is killed by insurgents X number 10, 20, even 100 civilians must die. Completely immoral and totally useless.
Not only does it further strengthen the support that insurgents receive from the civilian population, it causes other oppressors of minorities to decide they can do the same. So now Turkey who are damned sure that eventually, by hook or by crook, they will get their hands on the oil in Northern Iraq, are about to begin their limited incursions.
Here we go again. Not into a big ‘hot’ war however much that may have been the reason that dubya and the Bliar thought/hoped/prayed that would be the outcome of the last week of gay* murders.
Now that the UN appears to have judged it acceptable for forces other than those directly blessed by USuk and it’s acolytes to waltz across borders contemptuous of quaint concepts like sovereignty, we must accept that this practice which generally manages to keep conflicts bubbling along nicely rather than fizzing out, will be picked up by greedy and heartless oppressors all over the planet.
Round here that will be Javanese backed troops laying waste to Papua New Guinea’s territory up by the West Papua border allegedly chasing the unfortunately long defunct OPM.
This killing zone of thousands of humans, many of whom have led a what the glossy magazines call a ‘stone-age existence, untouched by civilisation’ who will discover the leaps and bounds made in technology (sat-nav in particular) that have occurred since the last time their clans were murdered and raped, and their children led off to a life of slavery hacking down the ancient rainforests which have housed them for millennia.
You see Indonesia had been forced to cease that stuff ever since they lost Timor Leste. The bad effects of thumbing one’s nose at the UN had finally been demonstrated.
The always ignored but never forgotten (by the generals that is) hill people of Burma, the Karen, are also about to discover that there is no safe side of the river to raise one’s families on. The Karen had been pretty much left alone by the Burmese army since the Generals agreed to abide by UN resolutions if only they could snuggle up to ASEAN. Of course now the UN appears to approve this stuff (citing Israel’s fortnight of fun in the Lebanon) there will be no holding back should the mood strike.
These are but two of many oft ignored but never forgotten regional conflicts that will burn brighter since Israel/USuk decided to ‘give it a burl’, ‘run it up the flagpole and see who salutes’.
But who cares anyway. It’s only the Southern half of the planet where ‘they all lazy’ (quote from Israeli journalist on BBC World program “Dateline London”) or ‘white colonialist(s) living on land violently stolen’.
Let’s face it the less of ‘them’ the easier it’s gotta be to grab the loot, which it will inevitably pointed out, they would never have found, much less extracted without our (ie whitefella) help.
*Hate to seem PC here but gay as in one of it’s earlier usages that is Showing or characterized by cheerfulness and lighthearted excitement; merry.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 20 2006 22:21 utc | 16

Ding ding ding! : Antifa at #9 has won the Best comment in a thread today, award!
And now for my canned award speech:
Bravo! Good show, mate.
“Gil Scott Heron was wrong, the revolution has been televised.” Only not the one we thought. The new “revolutionaries” have won.
This appears the opening move to ‘total war’; “our children will sing great songs about us years from now”. If their alive.
You have won a all paid vacation to Diego Garcia! With your choice of water boarding or stress position! Hood included.
I would also be willing to bet, four hens and one goat, China knows precicely what the endgame is. And I would not want to play Anumjongg MahJongg with the Dragon. And the Bear.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Jul 20 2006 22:28 utc | 17

china has enormous problems, not the least is its inability to absorb and “set in motion” its vast capital accumulation. this explains why in large part the u.s. may continue for a very long time to be the core economy in which the consumption of the immense pile of commodities occurs.
it’s not as if, per antifa, china exists now as an independent economy whose interests radically conflict with global capital accumulation, and also a country the u.s. must destroy in order to assure “our way of life.” but, there seems to be little doubt the u.s. and euro capitalists want to secure the production of region’s oil if for no other reason than, as chomsky says, to make sure oil prices don’t fall. That is, the explanation may be good old fashioned greed.
I have in the past advanced antifa’s arg about china, and it’s an argument david harvey makes, for example. I think though, capitalist competition for control, accumulation problems, inflationary crisis from rising energy costs, etc. afflict global capitalism in toto, and china is no exception. This fact raises another possible explanation. The west seeks domination of m.e. oil production to arrest the creation in russia and china of some other map of capitalist exploitation disfavoring the present balls to the walls neoliberalism. that’s john gray’s and emmanuel todd’s thesis. this argument to me is unconvincing based on the evidence. in no sense does china’s capitalism offer alternatives to the exploitation of labor, recessions, permanent inflation, and the annihilation of idle capital by war.
no. while i’d agree right noew the u.s. is the titular muscle for the global capital solution to the crises of capital, all global capitalists are complicit in the horrors of iraq.

Posted by: slothrop | Jul 20 2006 22:49 utc | 18

and as I’ve said before, the notion opf “empire” must include critique of global capitalism. in no sense is the u.s. fighting it’s own wars.

Posted by: slothrop | Jul 20 2006 22:52 utc | 19

Antifa, it’s what I have been posting for years. You said it better.
China and Russia may have something to say about the US turning Iran into a client state.
ran, there is no way the US can turn Iran into a client state from the air. That requires boots on the ground, and we don’t have enough to even control Iraq at the moment, a much smaller population. Don’t know where all those boots are going to come from unless a military draft is in order.

Posted by: Ensley | Jul 20 2006 22:52 utc | 20

ensley
if antifa is correct, then antifa would need to demonstrate empirically just where the interests of russian financiers diverge from the interests of other global capitalists. also, if we want to explain this in terms of proto-industrialist nation-state dominance (as antifa must argue, btw), then s/he needs to also demonstrate why china (energy poor) and russia (energy rich) would have similar “problems” with the m.e. disaster?

Posted by: slothrop | Jul 20 2006 23:04 utc | 21

that is to say also: the usual condemnation of “u.s. empire” here by conveniently excluding the constitutive interests of the global capitalist class is a dangerous oversimplification of the current cause of events.
this is where I tend to agree with citizen k: the problem of power is universal, dude. but unlike ck, I try and understand this power as the effect of the (global) capitalist mode of production. ck believes that australopithecenes were venal shopkeepers.
antifa retains a view of nation-state conflict which has long ago been superseded by the dynamics of global capitalism.

Posted by: slothrop | Jul 20 2006 23:14 utc | 22

Ensley: “… there is no way the US can turn Iran into a client state from the air.”
I don’t think the neocons, and their followers, have figured that out yet. Just listen to Fox News for more than 10 minutes and your bound to hear someone calling for the bombing of Iran. I guess if the U.S. turned Iran into glass with nukes, it may be possible, but what worth would a uninhabitable radioactive client state be to the U.S. or anyone else?

Posted by: Rick Happ | Jul 20 2006 23:23 utc | 23

The Likud Party and the Neo-Cons have had too much interbreeding going on. The Israelis replayed USA’s delusional hubris and started fighting a war on the cheap with air power. A demonstration project to cower Syria and Iran. Except it has gone terribly wrong. The rockets are still hitting Israeli cities and will continue incoming until ground troops invade Lebanon. CNN is full today of talk about buffer zones.
Either Israeli Jews, like Afrikaners, have to accept being a minority in a secular nation or they will have to depopulate a 50 mile buffer zone along their border. Every Israeli Jew will spend years patrolling and killing all human beings in the buffer zone. Indeed becoming the very thing that they fled Europe 61 years ago.

Posted by: Jim S | Jul 20 2006 23:31 utc | 24

@Dan. I was thinking the same thing. Going toe to toe with Hezbollah on their turf just isn’t quite as easy as when they waltz into Gaza or the West Bank and murder a bunch of undernourished rock throwing teenagers.

Posted by: ran | Jul 20 2006 23:39 utc | 25

@rick happ #23
from the shrub petulant child’s p.o.v. “if I can’t have it (oil, control, etc.) then nobody can” — so, yes, nuking Iran is possible

Posted by: andrew in caledon | Jul 20 2006 23:42 utc | 26

slothrop
anitifa has to do no such thing. all that needs to be done is to prove through a preponderance of evidence that a converging set of interests can accept through the exigencies of empire for the vanguard (u s imperialism) to take the leading role
& that is exactly what the neoconservatives position was & is
as has been pointed out by others – that this is a war by proxy – the israeli govt would not take the suicidal position they have taken without the direct involvement of u s leadership in the context of larger stakes
& for a moment let us put this quite brutally while the israeli govt only extinguished the lives if generation after generation of palestinians – the world has not given a fuck – & what has happpened in gaza for example in the last three months is a war against a people at every level – which gives neither honour or legtimity to the israeli state
slothrop, in your comprehension of a labrynthine global capitalism – which marx understood clearly in terms of ‘interests’ – you are want to wash away any nationalist character to these initiatives – even in countries that are quiet young – let alone those which are ancient
it is a kind of ahistoricism – which in fact & in deed – pardons a people for crimes in which they are direct beneficiaries
such is the case of u s imperialism & such is the case of the zionist project especially after 1967
you will of course say that i am too emotive but sometimes your cool arrangement of words seems to be an attempt on your part to hide the barbaric nature itself of imperialism & all its agents
the only thing that antifas analysis nor mine nor yours allows for is idiocy & accident. souestimation & surestimation
& that is why in some post you are the strangest defender of pure force as if in that space inhabits a form of an answer. you have sd in the instance of iraq & on the question of hezbollah – that if they really went at it their problem would dissapear
we have a history, a very recent history – where the americans have done just that – in fallujah, ramadi, and tal afar where they have used all the force they are capable of using outside of nuclear devices. & there would seem to me to be sufficient empirical evidence that there have been new & illegal weapons used in these attempts which even in the short term are both a disaster & a failure
sometimes you seem to mistake the organic nature of capital with its forms & the other way around
people are correct to suggest that this is just a new version of the old imperial ploy – the great game – that led even in that time to a word that seems very appropriate today in relation to israel -infamy

Posted by: r’giap | Jul 21 2006 0:28 utc | 27

Holding ‘global capitalism’ responsible is half right. If you take out the noun, leave global and replace the noun with any other ‘ism’ the result would be the same.
I was going to write about how disappointed BushCo, TheBliar Plc, and assorted other globalists will be that their nasty little attempt to envelop the ME in a grand conflagration has failed for the moment. But since this; whether the leadership of the aggressor nations would have sat to the left or right of the speaker in the assembly of france’s first republic has cropped up yet again, will discuss “big is bad”.
China may well be the mid term opposition, as it is the ‘next big thing’ but the meglamaniacs who have seized nearly all the controls of ‘western civilisation’have goals that stretch well beyond grinding the Chinese megalith into opposition.
If we keep talking about this problem of ever increasing hegemony in out-moded 19th century economic jargon we will alienate many of those who humans need to get onside to successfully resist our eventual enslavement.
To do that contemperaneously with this discussion here is a post written but never posted. It was in response to a comment comparing Switzerland with the US in another thread.
Th comparison is cast in economic terms as that was how the discussion was framed but the ‘power/control’ issues discussed go economic issues.
“So you’re saying our standard of living is dependent on the Pentagon circling the globe with bases and dominating and menacing the world militarily (with a budget larger than the the next 10 largest militaries) or else we’ll be living in squalor like those pacifists in Switzerland?
Switzerland being a much smaller and more manageable economy is responsive to changing needs and as such is much easier to trace and rectify the inefficiencies in.
amerika is too big to be responsive to either it’s populations’ needs or the demands placed upon it’s economy by a constantly changing world.
The economy of scale issue which used to be drummed into budding economists when the west was devoted to pumping out manufactured goods is obsolescent in a world where consumer demands require continual changes, passed off as ‘upgrades’, made to consumer goods.
GM’s inability to swap to smaller more energy efficient cars within a reasonable timeframe, is a classic example of this.
There are a number of reasons why, for the moment anyway, China is staying ahead of this game, but that is unlikely to last. Imagine how dull life will be when this year’s mp3 player/camera/mobile phone all rolled into one looks just the same as last year’s camera/mp3 player/mobile phone?
Well it will happen and then we are going to see China’s manufacturers; whose consumer electronics are surprisingly reliable, start building errors into their products, just as amerika did by design and the soviet union did by accident.
IMO Most of Amerika’s political problems are a result of trying to be eveything that everyone wants to an overly-large population.
Problems from domestic issues such as the never-ending disagreements over whether those in a gerbil/human relationship may adopt a baby ferret; to the overseas contentions such as whether it is permissible to whack someone over the back of the head when stealing their oil, and if it is; does contracting a disease from a quick game of hide the sausage with any passing unter-females, warrant a purple heart, would disappear if amerikans organised themselves into smaller groups.
The pro purple hearters could take up growing dental floss next door to Bruce Willis and those who fancied adopting a ferret could become an animal.
As facetious as that sounds there is a huge dollop of plain reality in it. The degree of brainwashing evident in many amerikans whenever something like this is proposed combined with plain old paranoia cranking from those who like to be ‘big frogs in big ponds’makes the most sensible route a a tough sell right across the population divide.
The issue goes well beyond amerika anyhow. Put simply. The quickest way to cast off our mass disempowerment is by individual empowerment.
We can’t beat em, we’ve already joined ’em so lets unjoin.
Communities can reform into much smaller more ‘user friendly’ groupings especially if there is a degree of coevality.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Jul 21 2006 0:40 utc | 28

@ Did – Welcome back.

Posted by: beq | Jul 21 2006 0:54 utc | 29

u s imperialism gave birth to militant islam in the sense that at the base nearly all of the formations were constructed in alliance with u s interests whether it was in afghanistan & kashmir, whether it was using what they thought was a ‘safe’ religious root to eleiminate secular democratic or socialist leaders & potential leaders
when i look at nasrallah on al jazeera i think i am looking at a fat & smug texan their comportement & their certitudes are the same
in some ways they are national liberation movements by another name, in other cases they are the plotics of desperation & in others they are complicit with their enemies in creating unliveable worlds for the mass of people
in a world that has sought to describe everything in vulgar binary terms are they then surprised when the world follows the very same errors
even as an old marxist i am more frightened by stupidity than by plans or programmes
& what is happening in lebanon is stupendously stupid

Posted by: r’giap | Jul 21 2006 0:57 utc | 30

rgiap
that’s weird, because it’s your argument that I think is undialectical and ahistorical and therefore an unwitting apology for french capitalists and other groovy euros playing in the shade of the hyperhegemon. you are at times undialectical: social relations are unhinged from capitalism when it is necessary for you to convince yourself that without the accumulation of peculiarly american arrogance, the world would not be in flames. what proof? france? you mean the same country arrogating to itself the right to attack any country believed by france to be a “threat”?
I don’t deny the role of patriotism, racism, sexism in the justification of these horrors. but, these are epiphenomena of the social relations created by the capitalist mode of production. and we don’t have to read 3000 pages of weber to know that even a man like cheney can’t possibly explain why he does what he does, but a theory of global class conflict explains better than any other theory this reification of consciousness and this murder.
also, I babbled a lot elsewhere here about the “organic composition of capital.” the chinese composition explains in a really stunning way why china is so complicit in the maintenance of our great fake global economy.
but, that all said, I hate my fucking country right now.
to think dialectically for a moment about the crisis

Posted by: slothrop | Jul 21 2006 1:03 utc | 31

retraction: of course capitalism doesn’t “create racism, sexism, etc., but exploits these characteristics in the legitimation vof itself.
my bad.

Posted by: slothrop | Jul 21 2006 1:06 utc | 32

I liked “Debs is Dead as a Mullet” better.
But whatever.
Good to see you back.

Posted by: Ms. Manners | Jul 21 2006 1:08 utc | 33

@ rgiap ye’r not wrong there narelle, but I still see capitalism as more of a tool by which these greedy men try and grab the lot than an end in itself. Leonid B and the pricks, those running the Soviet Union post Stalin would be pulling the same stunts if their greed hadn’t been exceeded by their stupidity.
Without going into another long spiel about political machines I have been involved with, the plain fact is that us humans are far more likely to get our needs met and more importantly able to deal with it when our needs aren’t met if we have a mutual bond of familiarity with the decision-makers in our community.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Jul 21 2006 1:11 utc | 34

“It’s not quite terror bombing… ”
Is Billmon running for office somewhere?

Posted by: John Francis Lee | Jul 21 2006 1:12 utc | 35

Imperialism did it.
All the neo-confederates need to prevail is to be opposed by this type of proven losers’ hedeghog approach.
Saint Noam. Saint Ralph.

Posted by: razor | Jul 21 2006 1:46 utc | 36

slothrop
when a member of the einsatzcommando beat a jewish commisar to death in the city of riga with a book – while he was representing the antisemitism of an entire continent, indeed of a world – his act was the pure represenntation of the nation in the individual. he is responsible & so is that nation that guided him
is my proposition so vastly incorrect that an american who anhilated fallujah or an israeli who shooots a ten year old boy is acting both individually & nationally
these actions have a name & the action while carried out all over the globe carries with it personal responsibility
it is my quaint marxism which demands that people take responsibility for what they do or don’t do & that we as marxist do not look for escape clauses for the people within that responsibility
if the 20th century has taught us anything it has taught us how quickly the victim can become the perpetrator

Posted by: r’giap | Jul 21 2006 1:52 utc | 37

Billimon forgot one component of the fight among “all against all” in the ME, not that it’s terribly important, I guess, among all that’s going on: much, if not majority, of the Arab “settlers” around Kirkuk are Shia, and as-Sadr had been very vocal about supporting them against the Kurds–at least in the past.

Posted by: kao_hsien_chih | Jul 21 2006 1:58 utc | 38

razor
you are as always regal in your criticism but it is not often that you offer a position that is truly yours

Posted by: r’giap | Jul 21 2006 2:13 utc | 39

1. What’s “indignious”?
2. You guys are nuts. There’s no panic in Israel. The government and the people are virtually united on this goal: the terror gang “Hizbollah” will be eliminated.
Got that?
Well, I don’t expect you did, but it’s a fact.
We will destroy Hizbollah.

Posted by: shira | Jul 21 2006 2:14 utc | 40

@JFL:
Naw, I think Bill’s angling for the Arleigh Burke Chair of Tactics and Strategy, at CSIS, when Anthony Cordesman retires.
Just a guess.

Posted by: FlashHarry | Jul 21 2006 2:14 utc | 41

“BC is now reporting that 2 IDF helicopters have collided on the border with attendant casualties. They’re beginning to look incompetent and flat-footed.”
Why don’t you volunteer to fight against the Israelis, if they are so incompetent?

Posted by: Shira | Jul 21 2006 2:16 utc | 42

“Billmon” linked to a picture of little Israeli girls writing love notes to Nasrallah on missiles. AFAIC, there’s nothing wrong with that–Nasrallah deserves no less. But there’s a story behind the photo that Billmon, who is a lazy bastard, and a liar, didn’t bother to get:
“The image above caused a huge storm of outrage in the Arab blogosphere. Huge. You wouldn’t believe how huge. The widely-read Gulf-based Palestinian blogger who was the first to post it received so much traffic that he had to move the photo to another server. Many others, including several I know personally, posted it and expressed their disgust. Israeli children taught to hate! Lebanese children are dying and they’re happy! They’re no better than… (fill in the blank, I don’t want to go there).
Below is the story behind the photo – from the source.
I phoned Sebastian Scheiner, the Israeli photojournalist who took the photo for Associated Press (AP), explained that the image had given a really terrible impression and asked for the context. He sketched it out quickly and fluidly, but asked me not to quote him. So I spoke with Shelly Paz, a Yedioth Ahronoth reporter who was also at the scene and agreed immediately to go on record. She was quite shocked to learn how badly the photo had been misinterpreted and misrepresented; and she told me the same story Sebastian did, but with more details and nuance.
The little girls shown drawing with felt markers on the tank missiles are residents of Kiryat Shmona, which is right on the border with Lebanon. And when I say “on the border,” I’m not kidding; there’s little more space between their town and Southern Lebanon than there is between the back gardens of neighbouring houses in a wealthy American suburb.
No, how close is it really?
Well, there’s a famous story in Israel, from the time when the Israeli army occupied Southern Lebanon: a group of soldiers stationed inside southern Lebanon used their mobile phones to order pizza from Kiryat Shmona and have it delivered to the fence that separates the two countries.
Anyway.
Kiryat Shmona has been under constant bombardment from South Lebanon since the first day of the conflict. It was a ghost town, explained Shelly. There was not a single person on the streets and all the businesses were closed. The residents who had friends, family or money for alternate housing out of missile range had left, leaving behind the few who had neither the funds nor connections that would allow them to escape the missiles crashing and booming on their town day and night. The noise was terrifying, people were dying outside, the kids were scared out of their minds and they had been told over and over that some man named Nasrallah was responsible for their having to cower underground for days on end.
On the day that photo was taken, the girls had emerged from the underground bomb shelters for the first time in five days. A new army unit had just arrived in the town and was preparing to shell the area across the border. The unit attracted the attention of twelve photojournalists – Israeli and foreign. The girls and their families gathered around to check out the big attraction in the small town – foreigners. They were relieved and probably a little giddy at being outside in the fresh air for the first time in days. They were probably happy to talk to people. And they enjoyed the attention of the photographers.
Apparently one or some of the parents wrote messages in Hebrew and English on the tank shells to Nasrallah. “To Nasrallah with love,” they wrote to the man whose name was for them a devilish image on television – the man who mockingly told Israelis, via speeches that were broadcast on Al Manar and Israeli television, that Hezbollah was preparing to launch even more missiles at them. That he was happy they were suffering.
The photograpers gathered around. Twelve of them. Do you know how many that is? It’s a lot. And they were all simultaneously leaning in with their long camera lenses, clicking the shutter over and over. The parents handed the markers to the kids and they drew little Israeli flags on the shells. Photographers look for striking images, and what is more striking than pretty, innocent little girls contrasted with the ugliness of war? The camera shutters clicked away, and I guess those kids must have felt like stars, especially since the diversion came after they’d been alternately bored and terrified as they waited out the shelling in their bomb shelters.
Shelly emphasized several times that none of the parents or children had expressed any hatred toward the Lebanese people. No-one expressed any satisfaction at knowing that Lebanese were dying – just as Israelis are dying. Their messages were directed at Nasrallah. None of those people was detached or wise enough to think: “Hang on, tank shell equals death of human beings.” They were thinking, tank shell equals stopping the missiles that land on my house. Tank shells will stop that man with the turban from threatening to kill us.
And besides, none of those children had seen images of dead people – either Israeli or Lebanese. Israeli television doesn’t broadcast them, nor do the newspapers print them. Even when there were suicide bombings in Israel several times a week for months, none of the Israeli media published gory photos of dead or wounded people. It’s a red line in Israel. Do not show dead, bleeding, torn up bodies because the families of the dead will suffer and children will have nightmares. And because it is just in bad taste to use suffering for propaganda purposes.
Those kids had seen news footage of destroyed buildings and infrastructure, but not of the human toll. They had heard over and over that the air force was destroying the buildings that belonged to Hezbollah, the organization responsible for shelling their town and threatening their lives. How many small children would be able to make the connection between tank shells and dead people on their own? How many human beings are able to detach from their own suffering and emotional stress and think about that of the other side? Not many, I suspect.
So, perhaps the parents were not wise when they encouraged their children to doodle on the tank shells. They were letting off a little steam after being cooped up – afraid, angry and isolated – for days. Sometimes people do silly things when they are under emotional stress. Especially when they fail to understand how their childish, empty gesture might be interpreted.
I’ve been thinking for the last two days about this photo and the storm of reaction it set off. I worry about the climate of hate that would lead people to look at it and automatically assume the absolute worst – and then use the photo to dehumanize and victimize. I wonder why so many people seem to take satisfaction in believing that little Israeli girls with felt markers in their hands – not weapons, but felt markers – are evil, or spawned by an evil society. I wonder how those people would feel if Israelis were to look at a photo of a Palestinian child wearing a mock suicide belt in a Hamas demonstration and conclude that all Palestinians – nay, all Arabs – are evil.
And I wonder why it is so difficult to think a little, to get it into our heads that television news and photojournalism manipulate our thoughts and emotions.
Links to anti-Israel websites with that photo placed prominently next to the image of a dead Lebanese child have been sent to me several times. Someone has been rushing around the Israeli blogosphere, leaving the link to one particularly abhorrent site in the comments boxes. And it makes me really sad that the emotional climate has deteriorated to this point.
The moderates of the Middle East are locked in a battle with the extremists. And look what they did to the moderates. Without blinking, without thinking, we fell victim to the classic “divide and conquer” technique. We work hard for months and years to build connections, develop our societies, educate ourselves, promote democracy and free speech… And they destroy it all, in less than a week. And we let them.”
LINK: http://ontheface.blogware.com/

Posted by: shira | Jul 21 2006 2:22 utc | 43

@Shira:
Well, as I see it, the game’s played by Wellington’s Rules:
Bring it on in fine fashion.
I believe someone will send you back in fine fashion.
As I suggested the other evening, might be best to consult the oddsmakers in Vegas or your local Delphic Oracles, before proceeding further.

Posted by: Ms. Manners | Jul 21 2006 2:27 utc | 44

@Shira #43:
As I said the other evening also:
Well boo fucking hoo indeed.
Play the game.Pay the piper.

Posted by: Ms Manners | Jul 21 2006 2:40 utc | 45

Their messages were directed at Nasrallah.
shira thanks for the clarification. I had no idea all those kiddie missiles nailed “nasrallah.” he must get around.

Posted by: slothrop | Jul 21 2006 2:59 utc | 46

About the only remotely “interesting thing about the current “one who should not be fed” is whether he does it for love or money.
My money is on the money; the taunts are dull and uninteresting. Plus they are so long and repetitive one must deduce that payment is by the word.
It demonstrates better than anything else, including the hapless Lebanon escapade, exactly how desperate and bereft of a strategy the zionists are.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Jul 21 2006 3:19 utc | 47

at Shira
“… who is a lazy bastard, and a liar, didn’t bother to get”
my, my… and we warm and fuzzy liberals let you get away with using most of the broadband on this thread so that you can insult and attack Billmon —
thank goodness for Miss Manners and her excellent memory…

Posted by: crone | Jul 21 2006 3:23 utc | 48

Debs, could be an AIPAC True Believer, but I’d go 50-50 w/”prof.” troll…Hopefully, b-‘ll hit the purge button.
Back to reality..r’giap wrote:
what is happening in lebanon is stupendously stupid
Gotta disagree here. Destroying Lebanon isn’t “stupid”; it’s an obscenity almost beyond words; while moving Israel’s northern border up to the Litani River gives Israel a natural boundary, w/added bonus of a new supply of water. How is that stupid? And to boot, they’re playing the victim role so well, they’ve put off discussions of “withdrawing from the West Bank”, a joke to begin w/.

Posted by: jj | Jul 21 2006 3:30 utc | 49

Hate to be literal but of course it is possible to be both stupid and obscene simultaneously and I believe the attack on Lebanon is both.
There may be a small gain in the short-term (water), but long term this current series of premeditated war crimes will end up biting the zionists on the ass.
I would be interested to hear how the bloodbath is playing out in amerika in the non-Fox msm. Even the nasty little winger here whose pop server was bouncing my messages (solved now – – it was an external hack from somewhere outside the system, which figures since an internal policy would just have the posts trashed) was hopping in to this morning’s know-it all zionist live from jerusalem.
As soon as the bloke started into the terrorism part of Zion Inc’s Message Of The Day our bloke cut across him with “speaking of terrorism when is Israel going to apologise for it’s act of terror against NZ. The time when your govenment tried to fraudently obtain NZ passports to be used by Israeli agents carrying out assassinations (must have rented ‘Munich’ last night) and thereby endangering the lives of all travelling Kiwi’s.
The bloke was gobsmacked into a stunned silence, then the “foaming at the mouth invective” against terrorism as if nothing had happened. They must train them all from the dreadful Shimon Peres on down to gabble out as much bullshit per second as possible without pausing to take a breath lest someone else get a word in edgewise.
Anyway up until a bit of a waver yesterday, this show’s ‘host’ and always been full bottle on the poor little Israel meme. not anymore. The sight of too many dead children and not enough dead HB terrarists must have got to him.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Jul 21 2006 4:15 utc | 50

What a great discussion. Everyone is in such fine form – even the troll.
It may be a little late in the discussion to ask this but what the hell:
Should the Lebanese government demand reparations from Israel?
And if so, is now too soon?

Posted by: Night Owl | Jul 21 2006 4:47 utc | 51

@Debs:
Can see you are angling for a promotion, too.
I am connected. Say the secret words:
Lord Mullet, KG,OBE,EH?
I present an Australian I was impressed with and occasionally amused by:
JOHN HACKETT
I did not know this gentleman personally, of course, as I never specialized in Night Nursery for Octogenarians.
Enjoy or Not. Be terrorized or not.

Posted by: Ms. Manners | Jul 21 2006 4:52 utc | 52

@Night Owl
Seeing on TV the pictures from southern Beruit tonight, the damage is far worse than I imagined. It is reported that other areas of Beruit are still pretty much intact. With all the Israeli blockades, the Lebanese people may be hurting real bad soon. Haven’t seen any pictures from towns in southern Lebanon, but I bet the damage is unbelievable. Your question reminds me of U.S. lawmakers allocating money for rebuilding Iraq even as the U.S. military, and so many others, continued to destroy. The billions and billions allocated disappeared quickly … I guess “security” needs and corruption ate most of it. Hey. Plenty of money for the “green” zone and new U.S. bases though. Don’t hear much clamor anymore for additional aid to Iraq for recontruction by U.S. lawmakers.
It will be interesting how this question will play out in Lebanon.
With modern technology, it sure is a lot easier to destroy than to build.

Posted by: Rick Happ | Jul 21 2006 5:37 utc | 53

Plenty of money for the “green” zone and new U.S. bases though
Absogoddamnlutely. And in the green zone a staggeringly expensive fortress-like embassy, unlike fuck all else in Iraq, on time and under budget.
Yea, we’re there to “bring democracy and liberate the Iraqi people”. And a flock of seagulls just flew out of my ass.

Posted by: ran | Jul 21 2006 5:51 utc | 54

Night Owl, I thght. i heard they’d already asked/demanded them. (Don’t think I was dreaming.. 🙂 )

Posted by: jj | Jul 21 2006 6:56 utc | 55

But don’t worry It’s gonna be OK.
According to our guest professional Zionist, getting little girls to scrawl nice messages to the kids in the Lebanon before the Lebanese children are blown to smithereens is fine. In fact the right thing to do cause the families live in the Golan Heights where the families do get shot at.
Hmm! Golan Heights has a familiar ring to it. Lemme see, lemme think. Oh I remember now! The Golan Heights! Of course! that land that Israel stole from Syria twice in less than 10 years.
So if you march into someone else’s country, shoot all of the people who have the temerity to be living there,, move your children in (how’s that for criminal behaviour? Moving children into an illegally occupied warzone — see UN resolutions 446, 452, 465 et al), then when the people whose land was stolen fight to get it back, you teach your daughters hatred and murder just to hang on to what you have stolen!
It’s too often forgotten that exactly the same instinct motivates the Israeli ‘setlers’ as motivates other land developers from Miami to Moscow.
Developers talk loudly about freedom, private enterprise, the nobility of man’s advances to civilisation, as manatees and muslims, panthers and pathans have their habitats destroyed.
Destroyed so these greedy pricks can move in someone who will “pay more”. Pay more for land that they have stolen and bulldozed!
“OK, fair enough” says Bush and Cheney; whores to the lowest in the land. “Just put the money on the dresser before we begin.”
Zombie Sharon the slaughterer of Sabra and his son Fatboy, were taking huge kick-backs from the property developers building ‘settlements’ on the stolen land.
Olmert has probably been having trouble getting his share since the evictees- sorry wrong word that should read ‘criminal jihadist terrorists’- have been getting uppity.
Now because of that those whining Russian whores and gangsters won’t pay the rent.
Trying to excuse the pricks indoctrinating those little girls in the photo by saying they live in Kiryat Shmona, doesn’t excuse the behaviour it just shows it to be more contemptible than we first imagined.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 21 2006 7:18 utc | 56

Pat Lang was on CNN – good interview

Pat, thanks very much for coming in.
Can this Israeli military strategy of trying to deliver a knockout punch to Hezbollah work?
COL. PAT LANG, U.S. ARMY (RET.): It doesn’t make any sense to me. As you know, I’ve worked in all of these countries and with the IDF a lot, and studied it forever. And this just doesn’t make any sense to me what they’re doing, because as this Israeli air force major said, it’s impossible to go around in a kind of hunt for all of these rocket launchers everywhere.
Hezbollah is a numerous, well organized, disciplined guerrilla army. They have reserves in depth of people among the Shia people of Lebanon.
They’ve been organizing this ground for five or six years. There are all kinds of tank traps and ambush positions. All kinds of things like this.
It’s a murderous place to go fight. And the idea that you can root people like that out who are Islamic zealots and cause them to quit and run away with air power and artillery and some small- scale operations, it’s just — it’s just not on.
BLITZER: So what do you see the Israeli military strategy — I mean, I assume they appreciate the same factors that you appreciate.
LANG: I don’t understand it. I can’t understand it. The only way you can stop Hezbollah from shooting into north Lebanon is to move…
BLITZER: Into north Israel.
LANG: Into north Israel is to move their gun line back to the north far enough so that, in fact, they can’t reach you.
The only way to do that, in my opinion, is with ground troops. Now, I know the IDF does not want to occupy part of Lebanon again, but they’ve somehow gotten themselves in a position in which there may be no other choice. And from what I understand, they’re mobilizing large numbers of people and they’re probably thinking it over.

Posted by: b | Jul 21 2006 7:46 utc | 57

An elegant epigram of Serendib says that ‘two elephants cannot be tied to one post.’
The glimmer in this gem is as obvious — and subtle — as he who hears it.
Lifelong sarong and sari wearers among you, who have actually seen two elephants tied to one post know damn well that they will soon wander off with that post. It’s only a matter of time before they happen to pull together or happen to pull opposite — the post survives neither event.
This lesson is portable.
Many see our world’s rising tide of human woes, think it all through, and blame global capitalism.
Capital is widely respected and regarded; it is influential and omnipresent; it is slippery, solvent, and super sexy. Like water, it gets into everything. It can rinse away blood. It can feed millions. It can drown millions.
An Ism is most anything writ large, writ larger than life itself. Ideology is love of an idea. Ideology of every sort is Ism, is an idea taken to be larger than life itself.
An Ism will not blink or bend if polar bears are drowning, or babies are bleeding. That’s merely life — here is an eternal Idea. We must stay the course.
Capital is money. Money is debt. Usury on debt is the fuel of global capitalism. We extract compound interest from the beating hearts of human lives on every continent and island nowadays. Human sweat congeals into capital instruments that will burn reliably over measured fiscal periods.
Some of us have our lives. Some of us have basis points in other human lives.
When debt creation and servicing becomes our global culture and condition, we are pursuing Global Capital Ism. When that Idea of perpetually increasing debt service is larger than human life itself, when polar bears are drowning and babies are bleeding, we have tied two elephants to one post.
The post is civilization, the maypole, the base agreement between people that we will not kill each another on sight, that we will leave one another’s daughters and property alone in exchange for the same treatment. The post is the promise that people from one valley will not raid the fields of people in the next valley.
The post is the sum of how far we have come since our ancestors drew buffaloes and birds on the cave walls of rural France.
We’ve come all the way to Consumer Man, whose idea larger than life is to get more, to live better than well, and to see that the kids all get even further along the Capital Highway, at any and all collateral damage. Why? Because it’s all good. Because it’s super sexy to have the best and be the best. Elvis is in the building, baby. Hoo-yah!
This is one elephant tugging at the post.
The billions of bug-eaten bastards digging in the dirt all over the world, the filthy and filched in the factories and fisheries and foundries, the various victims of capitalism’s conquests who sometimes in death or crisis join the infinitesimally small percentage of human beings to ever have their picture taken — this faceless multitude is the other elephant tugging at the post.
There are so many people without anything at all. Just the day, and hunger, and the children. So unbelievably many with nothing but that. Human minds do not really count as high as the number of people scratching for edible things around the globe. A billion — is just a word to the human mind. Two billion — is just two words.
But all those lowly lives, and billions more living scarcely above their level, are tugging opposite to Consumer Man, who wants to own everything and run everything. When he comes to collect sweat from them they know not his language or his trade or his tools but they do know they have less when he leaves than they had before. Because he bought basis points in their lives.
He bought their government, he bought their laws, he bought their resources, he bought their property, he bought their lives.
Their sweat builds empires in far off countries. Their sweat congeals into debt instruments and derivatives and Dow Jones daily averages. What gave Consumer Man possession of their sweat is as much a mystery to them as where their lives will go from here. Consumer Man neither knows nor cares. His world does not work that way.
Most of the human race will never — ever — under any circumstances enjoy a tenth of what Consumer Man takes for granted and throws away. There is not enough planet to supply that standard of living for all of us, and not enough environment to hold the garbage. We would need several more Earths to reach that level. Global consumer civilization isn’t going to happen with these numbers. Ever.
So we have two elephants, and you cannot leave two elephants tied to one post. If you do, you must watch them all night and all day, keeping them from tugging together or tugging opposite, keeping them from wandering off with the maypole.
The rich and the poor could tug all together, and wander off with this civilization grounded in debt servicing. They could cease all usury of human lives, and everyone could have somewhat of the Earth’s available bounty, but not at any and all collateral cost to human creatures living and yet to live. The American lifestyle could become, actually, negotiable.
The rich and the poor could tug opposites, wandering off with the maypole shattered and broken, with no one’s daughters or harvest safe anymore. Start tossing nukes around, and Consumer Man will be drawing buffaloes and birds on the walls of caves. We’ll try again. We’ll start over. Maybe we’ll share this time.
One planet spinning through space. One global civilization based on debt servicing, based on the few harvesting from the many. Two elephants tied to that maypole, that civilization.
The sun will come up in an hour. I’ll be in my fields, getting the work done before the heat arrives. I can’t think of a billion, but I can think of one mother or one father somewhere waking up to the day, and hunger, and the children. I can think about elephants.
I don’t want this war, and I don’t want this civilization.

Posted by: Antifa | Jul 21 2006 8:37 utc | 58

not to be disrespectful Antifa but,
Whoop, there it is

Posted by: anna missed | Jul 21 2006 9:03 utc | 59

@ran
Your #54 made me chuckle, –much needed– a A Flock Of Seagulls? you say…eh?
Without a sense of humor, life would be utterly unbearable on this barbaric planet. ~Robert Anton Wilson

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Jul 21 2006 9:48 utc | 60

Antifa, you understand the symbolism in the maypole I’m sure..
May the goddess bless you, may your children prosper, and if not, may they ride the elephant because we need a reset button to reboot the civ.
Thank-you for that, thats a keeper.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Jul 21 2006 10:16 utc | 61

As soon as the bloke started into the terrorism part of Zion Inc’s Message Of The Day our bloke cut across him with “speaking of terrorism when is Israel going to apologise for it’s act of terror against NZ. The time when your govenment tried to fraudently obtain NZ passports to be used by Israeli agents carrying out assassinations (must have rented ‘Munich’ last night) and thereby endangering the lives of all travelling Kiwi’s.
And I thought Americans were self-obsessed and provincial.
Hey blokes, speaking of global warfare, what about my feelings.

Posted by: citizen k | Jul 21 2006 11:40 utc | 62

What I still don’t get about that stupid photo is why the girls are writing in English.
Kiryat Shemona is not in the Golan Heights, according to the BBC
It was the site of a famous 1974 massacre by the PFLP who murdered 18 people there including 9 children – (I’m sorry, who bravely liquidated 18 representatives of the Zionist Apartheid Regime half of whom were pretending to be children as part of a plot to fraudulently get more sympathy from the simple guilt ridden people of Europe whose entire history is one of trying to do good while being manpulated by the FreeMasons). The Israeli government used this battle (freedom fighters against unarmed but fiendish children) and some other glorious PLO/PFLP military adventures as part of their excuse for the brilliantly successful 1978 Lebanon invasion that settled all questions and brought lasting peace to the region. Amen.

Posted by: citizen k | Jul 21 2006 12:36 utc | 63

Yeah, cognitive dissonance can be a bitch sometimes citizen k.
Anyway, that sounded gruffer than I intended, but it’s true.
I am open to your views citizen k, I guess I’m just not yet clear what they is…hehe Forgive me, I’m quite thick sometimes, however I like to think myself bright but ego gest us all sometimes. As a pseudo-“guerilla ontologist”, I’m just not reading your signals as clear as I would like.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Jul 21 2006 12:50 utc | 64

Antifa (#58) So beautiful. I’m sending it on. Thank you.

Posted by: beq | Jul 21 2006 13:04 utc | 65

citizen k consistently insistents Israel should be judged moral or immoral by the same standard as other nation states, peoples, corporate fictions; bogeyman fictions (the neo marxists bestiary for example), and for this startling and obnoxious proposition is mocked by the enlightened who are masters of the faults of America.
Double standards are so sweeeeet.

Posted by: razor | Jul 21 2006 13:12 utc | 66

My view Unc is pretty damn hazy. As far as the ME, I’m repulsed by all the tsunami of lies, murders, bullshit, ideological, geopolitical, religious, ethnic, and other excuses for stupidity and destruction. Gunships and suicide bombers, self righteous whining, hypocritical pieties, and fraudulent symbolism.
This Kyriat Shmona deal pretty much sums it up.
You can pick up the storyline anywhere like:
1974 massacre of children by heroic PFLP freedom fighters who operate freely from territory bravely administered by clean hands Canadian UN troops who somehow don’t notice or care that the area they “guard” is filled with abysmal poverty and corrupt terrorist gangsters
Used to excuse an invasion by heroic IDF mechanized army that turns 150,000 miserable refugees into a million and features airial bombardments of civilians and ugly war followed by installation of Fascist “phalange” terror regime which is all worth it, of course, because it leads so obviously to lasting peace that
eventually forces the heroic IDF to beat a retreat, taking Phalange with them to torment people in Gaza and shoot at their children which is ok because of some other shameful excuse which I can’t remember anymore
and then the Hizbollah, which represents the much oppressed Shiites of Lebanon by keeping them poor, but giving them something to be proud of – you can’t hold up your head if all the other ethnic and religious groups are staging pointless massacres and your side is just getting them – and then
well you get the picture.
The only coherent scientific explanation of all this I have heard is from Comrade Bill Shakespeare:
“As flies to wanton boys, are we to the gods; They kill us for their sport.”

Posted by: citizen k | Jul 21 2006 13:33 utc | 67

Razor: You must have missed the explanation that cleared this all up from our Shining Red Star of Political Purity White Boy Settler Kiwi. He helpfully explained that any violation of UN resolutions by racist Zionist lying evil apartheid state criminals is unforgiveable, but that Freedom Loving Heroic Liberators like Gamal Nasser and, presumably “Abraham Lincoln” Assad, are often morally compelled to ignore UN resolutions in their blessed struggle for humanity – and of course, the routine violation of UN resolutions by the major powers and minor things like the invasion of NZ by peace loving politically correct White Settlers have no bearing on any of these issues.

Posted by: citizen k | Jul 21 2006 13:44 utc | 68

Uncle:
One of the many pathetic ironies in the ME is that after a millenium of being told by Europeans that their levantine, dark-skinned, oriental blood disqualified them for civilized life in the land of Christian Europeans, the few surviving Ashkenazi Jews fled to the ME and are now told by PC Europeans and White Settlers that they are zionist offensive white colonialists stealing the land of the True Noble Natives. Amazing ain’t it? Only get to be white people when there is no advantage to it.

Posted by: citizen k | Jul 21 2006 14:38 utc | 70

Hell, what do I know, we were considered outlaws and black to boot, until the 18th century. At least that’s wot me ol grandpappy sd, and he should know, he was technically an indentured slave to “Turtle Island” (America).
And them thar Mic’s can fooken drink! 😉 So pour my a pint, an I’ll sing ya a song…lush that I am.
How the Irish Became White

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Jul 21 2006 15:01 utc | 71

Harper’s Silverstein interviews an US (ex-military) Lebanon expert:
Six Questions on Lebanon for Augustus Richard Norton

I believe Hezbollah acted autonomously. This was not an Iranian decision to distract attention from its nuclear program.

This is part of a deep strategy by the Israeli defense establishment to hit at Iran indirectly and to make it easier for Israel to strike against Iran’s nuclear program later if it chooses to do so. Hezbollah and its arsenal of rockets was an impediment to that.

They are attacking what is needed for normal life in Lebanon. I’ve been talking to people in Lebanon and it appears that Israel has established a killing box in south Lebanon, what the U.S. called a “free fire zone” in Vietnam. You establish a zone, which you dominate from the air, and force out civilians—there are already hundreds of thousands of Lebanese who have been displaced. Then you presume anything still moving in that zone is the enemy. This is a recipe for lots of hapless civilians dying,

Totally disarming Hezbollah is a fool’s errand. It’s too easy to hide weapons and there’s too great an incentive to keep them.

Israel has made a profound mistake. It may have bought time in terms of the threat on its northern border but history has shown that its vainglorious attempts to consolidate hegemony over its neighbors usually provoke the emergence of even fiercer adversaries.

I’ve been studying American foreign policy in the Middle East for 34 years and I can’t recall any U.S. president who has subordinated American interests to Israeli interests like this one. The administration is being naïve about how this is going to reverberate elsewhere, in places like Iraq.

Posted by: b | Jul 21 2006 15:22 utc | 72

Until the philosophy which holds one race
Superior and another inferior
Is finally and permanently discredited and abandoned
Everywhere is war, me say war
That until there is no longer first class
And second class citizens of any nation
Until the colour of a man’s skin
Is of no more significance than the colour of his eyes
Me say war
That until the basic human rights are equally
Guaranteed to all, without regard to race
Dis a war
That until that day
The dream of lasting peace, world citizenship
Rule of international morality
Will remain in but a fleeting illusion
To be pursued, but never attained
Now everywhere is war, war

~Prophet Bob
Never been a big Marley fan, but damn if I can’t get behind that…

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Jul 21 2006 15:36 utc | 73

There’s an interesting book which gives an insight into terrorism and the state by Brendan Behan, called “Borstal Boy”. He’s too much of a poet and a truthseeker to get the ideology right, the fookin’ guy, just presents things without a nice clear guide to good and bad.
Since we are on the topic of terrorism, sorta, here is one of my favorite explanations of civilized war.
——
King Henry:
How yet resolves the governor of the town?
This is the latest parle we will admit;
Therefore to our best mercy give yourselves;
Or like to men proud of destruction
Defy us to our worst: for, as I am a soldier,
A name that in my thoughts becomes me best,
If I begin the battery once again,
I will not leave the half- achieved Harfleur
Till in her ashes she lie buried.
The gates of mercy shall be all shut up,
And the flesh’d soldier, rough and hard of heart,
In liberty of bloody hand shall range
With conscience wide as hell, mowing like grass
Your fresh-fair virgins and your flowering infants.
What is it then to me, if impious war,
Array’d in flames like to the prince of fiends,
Do, with his smirch’d complexion, all fell feats
Enlink’d to waste and desolation?
What is’t to me, when you yourselves are cause,
If your pure maidens fall into the hand
Of hot and forcing violation?
What rein can hold licentious wickedness
When down the hill he holds his fierce career?
We may as bootless spend our vain command
Upon the enraged soldiers in their spoil
As send precepts to the leviathan
To come ashore. Therefore, you men of Harfleur,
Take pity of your town and of your people,
Whiles yet my soldiers are in my command;
Whiles yet the cool and temperate wind of grace
O’erblows the filthy and contagious clouds
Of heady murder, spoil and villany.
If not, why, in a moment look to see
The blind and bloody soldier with foul hand
Defile the locks of your shrill-shrieking daughters;
Your fathers taken by the silver beards,
And their most reverend heads dash’d to the walls,
Your naked infants spitted upon pikes,
Whiles the mad mothers with their howls confused
Do break the clouds, as did the wives of Jewry
At Herod’s bloody-hunting slaughtermen.
What say you? will you yield, and this avoid,
Or, guilty in defence, be thus destroy’d?
GOVERNOR: Oh, shit. We surrender.

Posted by: citizen k | Jul 21 2006 15:38 utc | 74

it is my quaint marxism which demands that people take responsibility for what they do or don’t do & that we as marxist do not look for escape clauses for the people within that responsibility
things become personified, persons become reified. this explains why people misapprehend reality by believing in myths: the mexican causes lower wages, I’m responsible for my own depression and penury, america is a moral country, women can’t do math, switzerland has its own economy, the world is really a story about 2 elepants tied to a pole. and so on.
I’m a little pissed off I must remind you, of all people, about this basic problem of fetishized consciousness.
most obviously, the “structuration” of peoples’ agency by consumerism including everything from the “necessary” use of phosphate detergents to kill a commie for mommy, serves the reproduction of the mode of production. it’s in everything we do. and not just americans.

Posted by: slothrop | Jul 21 2006 15:57 utc | 75

razors little routine that could win him a nice position in the rand corporation is tiring in the face of events
& the real history of those events
& their concrete contexts
it is easy to play the libertarian literary lout when this whole culture when not playing the victim plays the cynic
& that cynicism, as lenin sd – was borne of doing nothing
ck’s riff on secular arab movement whether nasser or the plfp is easy to say but it misses any understanding
you essentially buy into two argument – that the situation is so complex, everyone is guilty, no one is to blame
i imagine one of the reasons i am here is that i find people trying to construct somethings with a language –
perhaps because i am faced for the first time with more television than i would otherwise view – i am witnessing ‘expert’ upon ‘expert’ whose practiced cynicism wears me out
there is clearly error & fragility in my discourse & that of slothrop for example but it is your constant routine of questioning where i hear no real question, no real interrogations, not even inquisitiveness – rather a hard headed form or real politics that masks -for me at least – any real substantive critiques except for some polished form of punch & judy

Posted by: r’giap | Jul 21 2006 21:06 utc | 76

Comment by JFL “It’s not quite terror bombing… ”
Is Billmon running for office somewhere?
Posted by: John Francis Lee | Jul 20, 2006 9:12:21 PM | 35

Yes, that comment got me thinking, and on a relative scale, at least it was not Dresden. But that said, Billmon should not scale terror to grades, what’s happening in Lebanon is fucking criminal, yes Hezbollah are at war, but when did the war start?
I await Citizen K to help here.

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Jul 21 2006 21:24 utc | 77

Well, RG, Why don’t you interrogate slothrop for what he has written, in a bit more depth.
You might find an individual who would do real well at American Enterprise Institute, or as a Likud party apparat.
Have thought this for a long time.
I’m tiring rapidly of the smirking wise-ass who makes jokes of killing people and mayhem.
For slothrop is very “trying”, and I doubt he has read even a Cliff Notes on Marx.
.

Posted by: Ms. Manners | Jul 21 2006 21:56 utc | 78

ck’s riff on secular arab movement whether nasser or the plfp is easy to say but it misses any understanding
My only comment on the PFLP was that they murdered children and I find that repellent. My only comment on Nasser was that he miscalculated in 1967 by blockading Israel’s oil when he was in no position to win a war – although Israel’s military performance in 1967 was a huge surprise to almost everyone else.
The only other comment I can recall here is to note that Bernard Lewis’s explanation for the terrible state of Islamic societies is dishonest in the extreme: as if the West (and the Soviets) had not been playing their stupid control games. The Powers made sure that independent Arab and Persian secular nationalism would die.
What deep insights did I miss?

Posted by: citizen k | Jul 21 2006 22:12 utc | 79

ms mannerrs/groucho
don’t you have some mexicans to clean out of your attic?

Posted by: slothrop | Jul 21 2006 22:25 utc | 80

Followup to Uncle $’s Marley words:
Michael Franti And Spearhead
Crazy, Crazy, Crazy
Shine on
All my people, who been broken hearted
Shine on
From the place where all life has been started
When you need fresh air
Go beyond horizons, to your place in the sun
Shine on
Let your heart be boundless like your faith in the one
(chorus)
It’s crazy, crazy, crazy
No stoppin’ to this warfare
It’s crazy, crazy
We’re breathing in the same air
It’s crazy, crazy, crazy
Don’t tell me that you don’t care….
Sing on
From the language of your ancestors and
Sing on
Be playful in your innocence and
Lift your head up high
And rejoice for all you see without your eyes
Sing on
Like a bird that’s makin’ love in sunset skies
(bridge)
No life’s worth more than any other
No sister worth less than any brother
chorus)
It’s crazy, crazy, crazy
No stoppin’ to this warfare
It’s crazy, crazy
We’re breathing in the same air
It’s crazy, crazy, crazy
Don’t tell me that you don’t care….
…somebody please send us a prayer!

Posted by: catlady | Jul 21 2006 22:30 utc | 81

i have heard commentary from berri & jamblat in lebanon in which they both suggest they are prepared for their ‘forces’ to be allied with hezbollah if the israelis invade
as in their ‘conquest’ of iraq & afghanistan – the path of imperialism is that of the middle ages

Posted by: r’giap | Jul 21 2006 22:35 utc | 82

& that cynicism, as lenin sd – was borne of doing nothing
It’s truly sad to think of how idealistic and hopeful people were in Russia in 1917 and in China in 1945-50. All those dreams of a better world about to meet the NKVD and the Great Leap Forward.
Oh Comrade Lenin
you’ve moved into the kremlin
like the czars that you have killed just yesterday
Comrade Trotsky has discovered
the Czarist army can be recovered
and is useful when the sailors won’t obey
but Derzhinsky’s head banana at our super new Ohkrana
with some novel interrogations on the way
Yes it looks like a wonderful new day
tra la la la
everythings gonna be ok
Oh Comrade Mao
I can scarcely tell you how
happy I am now that we are free
and the emperors are gone
we’re proudly moving on
the red star is rising in the east
Who needs to eat when we can leap
forward to the beat
of the kill poisonous weeds campaign
we will burn up all the books
the dirty nines are such crooks
we will toss their broken bodies in the drain
Ch’in just killed a few
compared to Godlike You
as you scrawled on our blank pages
and model operas filled the stages
so we could praise our Helmsman every way
Yes it looks like a wonderful new day
tra la la la
everythings gonna be ok

Posted by: citizen k | Jul 21 2006 22:42 utc | 83

Think you have me confused with someone else.
What did you mean on the War Porn thread, for example, when you said that the little girl painting the message on the munition was”the saddest picture I have ever seen in my whole life”.
Most people who lived through the latter half of the 20th century have seen far worse:The ruins of Berlin and Hiroshima;the pictures from the liberated Nazi death camps; the pictures of the Buddist monks and nums burning themselves to death in Vietnam, during that war. And yeah, the stuff on 911.
I thought marxists studied at least a little bit of history .
Guess your approach is ahistorical then.

Posted by: Ms. Manners | Jul 21 2006 22:56 utc | 84

Last directed to slothrop.

Posted by: Ms. Manners | Jul 21 2006 23:00 utc | 85

ck
we all have to use a form of shorthand here – sometimes that shorthand appears more cursory than it really might be
i found yr comment on bernard lewis(the most bankrupt of scholars of islam & of sicily it should be sd) pertinant not just because i agree with it but because it brought out a larger context – it was not just book knowledge – yrt the reductionism in relation to nasser seemed to me to be just that – reductive
most of all you offer little context of how the politics of desperation is constructed – there are a number of useful histories of palestinian resistance which include a moe complet picture of the pflp for example than your asside about massacres
i know that you possess that knowledge – so it seems to me that sometimes our shorthand is brutish, too brutish

Posted by: r’giap | Jul 21 2006 23:05 utc | 86

oh, I see. you believe my suburban bourgeois fantasies shaken momentarily by my inadvertant encounter with that hideous picture. it’s true! why, I had no idea the wretched humanity’s spells of suffering endorsed even by young children, signing a bomb with what I now understand to be sarcastic epigrams! you mean, in what you call “history” others have suffered as much or more? what books do you read? If I paid a bit more attention, I’d have what I think is called “empathy.”
I have only read marx, whose frequent asides about the conditions of child laborers in manchester and liverpool were used by him as a rhetorical device. he was theatrical. like balzac.

Posted by: slothrop | Jul 21 2006 23:10 utc | 87

ms. manners
I have great respect for master rgiap. I’m a poor acolyte when the conversation about blame for these atrocities conveniently asserts the u.s. is the sole proprietor of misfortune and woe. I’m no longer sure we can say that anyone is making history behind anyone’s back, rather something about the totality of ptractices and social relations unique to global capitalism impels agency in service of the surival of a system of domination that most people believe to be either a mirage (antifa, it seems) or something lording only over the utterly empty stupidity and violence of america (rgiap) or as something, well, that is Spirit without the dialectical mumbojumbo (citizen k).
the “spectacle” someone once called it.

Posted by: slothrop | Jul 21 2006 23:22 utc | 88

i think too that behind yr level of cynicisim exists a more optimistic sense of the world than the one i possess tho you use king lear
my pessismism does lie in the corruption of the communist project – certainly not by the ideas because on the contrary i find they offer more sense & truth than they did for me 20 years ago – no i find the corruption in men & in their inability to live either justly or with exemplarity
we as human beings have failed ideas & not the other way around
the barbarity that is being practiced by israel today has as itc roots & at its centre – the inability to deal with even the most temporal of questions – the questions that benjamin, or scholem or even steiner asked all their lives
& frankly i don’t see a new caliphate as being a great deal darker than the world we are living in

Posted by: r’giap | Jul 21 2006 23:30 utc | 89

@slothrop
A quote for your consideration
The materialist doctrine that men are products of circumstances and upbringing, and that, therefore, changed men are products of other circumstances and changed upbringing, forgets that it is men that change circumstances and that the educator himself needs educating.
I’m not sure what you mean by “fetishized consciousness.” (in #75 above) Does it leave room for the need and responsibility we have to educate ourselves? That we have the power to? Does it leave room for the ways that those untrained in Marxist textology would come to educate themselves? Does it leave room for us to ever choose for ourselves?

Posted by: citizen | Jul 21 2006 23:32 utc | 90

R’Giap:
The politics of desperation is a strange thing indeed and important to understand. Do you understand it? I do not. One thing is that there is a dangerous appeal of apocolypse to the frustrated middle class. I remember thinking that Franz Fannon was so brilliant, but now I think that the much missed Chris Hani was far smarter. I heard Hani speak just before he was murdered and some smartass complained about the gradualist policies he was advocating. His response was “our people cannot eat slogans”. But Hani came from poverty and Fanon came from a funny part of the middle class that was prevented, by race, from rising too far. I wonder if the doctors and lawyers and professors and students who made up PFLP are not more similar to the people of the same class who are Gush Eumanim or who the Mega Churches in the US. The rapture, the revolution, the attentat, the uprising, some event to take us away from the tedious and humiliating grind of daily life and into the refreshing sphere of pure action – this seems to me to be a frightening delusion and a cause of so much failure. Of course, maybe this is just a comfortable rationalization for myself. But …

Posted by: citizen k | Jul 21 2006 23:43 utc | 91

That “textology” term sounds a bit more smartass than I intended.
Slothrop, I actually do want to know where your idea of agency leaves us individuals.

Posted by: citizen | Jul 21 2006 23:43 utc | 92

citizen
if i am respond
i am sure that it does
the vanguard organisation has been central since 1848 but they have never been ‘mature’
the absence of that maturity is because the vanguard organisation mistook itself for the people & in a sense babysat them & that therefore the infantilising of the mass led to immediate ossification in those organisation – a fear of organic mechanisms, fear of audaciousness & initiative, fear, going backwards, appropriating the past instead of inventing the future, creation of oligarchy etc etc
if a new world is possible it can only be done with the initiative of individuals exactly in the sense that marx taught
citizen k would say i suppose that because 12 million of us marched to try & stop the war in iraq & failed to stop it – that it is then generic of our failure & an intrinsic sign of success or adaptability in the empire
i on the contrary saw & see the opposition to the entire project of the u s empire as one of the healthiest signs of a possible world(s)
& i respect too the rigour that slothrop brings here & the reminders he obliges us to make & for his good humour in the face of both bleakness & fear with which thei empire tries to encage us

Posted by: r’giap | Jul 21 2006 23:47 utc | 93

fetish conscipusness, false consciousness.
all we need, and I’m serious, is to buy newscorp and put rgiap as head of the news division.
we need meaningful counterhegemony.
as to whether “the person” has power? the person doesn’t exist. as I understand it, this fact is the point at which the critique of marx by situationists, baudrillard etc. began.

Posted by: slothrop | Jul 22 2006 0:00 utc | 94

@Citizen K:
It has always interested me that the leaders of most of the revolutions in the 20th century, have come almost exclusively from the middle class.

Posted by: Ms. Manners | Jul 22 2006 0:04 utc | 95

Now Slothrop:
all we need, and I’m serious, is to buy newscorp and put rgiap as head of the news division.
What investment banker is going to do that deal?

Posted by: Ms. Manners | Jul 22 2006 0:10 utc | 96

ck
chris hani was a model for me (i met & worked with people in the cp of sa & the anc who were close to him) & i respected also the tender hands that this strong man possessed
if there was no real bloodletting after apartheid fell it is due much to the work of people like him
i see it too in the model of fred hampton who spoke clearly against the weatherman in the same way you speak of that part of the middle class who tries to achieve a kind of nietzschean purity through
action
i was born in poverty but in a background rooted in resistance – when i was 10 – i was vietnamese – all oppressed people were – but i still was attracted to a form of fanaticism for wwhich i do not apologise – what i read from history taught me that it was necessary to be audacious to fight & possibly win against an oppressor
even in the movement of armed struggle in europe in my time – there were enormous differences between red army fraktion who were by & large bourgeois with strong religious/ethical backgrounds, the red brigades in italy & the ira were essentially working class in character, action direct here in france was exclusively constructed with marginal people
as you know the pflp & the leadership of fatah were people who were linked in one way or another with the grand families of palestine – they were & are uniquely refined – you see it today still in the tired eyes oif a person like saeb erekat & i know their practical politics were borne in desperation (i know that for a fact….) but they were already losing out to the more mercenary abu nidal é abu abbas who i still think were hoods funded by israel, their desperation & absence of gradual work assisted in the primacy of those religious organisations that did – but even then the govt of israel has much to do with their construction/fabrication. did it not entirely pass people’s attention that in israels ‘revenge’ for munich they struck at intellectuals & the gentle hands of the movement. there was never any real attempt to hit the real hoods – my argument is that they were in their employ
i think i like many people & i can tell you there were many foreign cadre in china in the early seventies mistook action for audaciousness & after a while your own action becomes a form of inaction/ossification
i do think you are unfair with fanon tho – there is much in his work like that of reichs that i find practically useful in a more quotidean struggle
sorry for being more labrynthine than i wanted to be but their are valuable histories avilable to us – even in this dark moment
but then i have always been a victim of ‘book worship’

Posted by: r’giap | Jul 22 2006 0:14 utc | 97

& in a week where that butcher bolton felt free enough to speak of ‘moral equivalence’ & that traitor to scholarship rice can boldly speak of ‘false promise’ – then perhaps i have gone beyond the pale

Posted by: r’giap | Jul 22 2006 0:22 utc | 98

Well, a question, a bit Ot, But:
Did Marx say anything about “suicidal tendencies” being inherent in capitalism?
Just curious.

Posted by: Ms. Manners | Jul 22 2006 0:28 utc | 99

I am mid-encounter with Paolo Freire these days, and much taken by the idea that people can exist as thinking/acting individuals so long as they actually make a practice of acting in the interests of fellow human beings own work to free themselves from blindness to contradiction and domination.
I gather this avenue to individual freedom works because working with others to accompany them in their learning (rather than bequeath to them learning) drive one to think and act in ways that work in practice. By such collaboration of individual with other individuals, I gather one can end up with real knowledge and real experience of thought and choices, rather than mere ghosts of thought and choices, long dead from reification.
Certainly this is far from Descartes’ little white lies.

Posted by: citizen | Jul 22 2006 0:31 utc | 100