@Whomever posted the Ritter anti-war link:
A somewhat interesting read, but rather lacking in actual analysis. I mean, how can you discuss the anti-war movement without even mentioning the word ANSWER? How is what he’s proposing different from what UFPJ attempted? And no mention of the 2004 election, which managed to create a warmongering Democrat as the anti-war candidate?
Instead, we get advice that we should read Von Clausewitz. And I don’t recall Sun Tzu writing a book called “Herding Cats.” Useless.

Posted by: Rowan | Apr 4 2006 4:22 utc | 15

The wunnerful thing about America is that you have the right to march about and display any kind of flag you want, and you can (still) even burn them in public if you want to.
God bless America for that.
And remember, there were folks speaking Spanish in the southwest long before it became part of the USA.

Posted by: ralphieboy | Apr 4 2006 5:47 utc | 17

From my experience, the only people disliked more in “the South” than Mexicans, is black Americans. I am familiar with a civil engineer who manages construction projects, that enforces a dual language requirement so that he is able to disqualify black Americans.
Congressmen are corporate representatives, and have lost all interest in the welfare of the citizenry. We will be waving the corporate flag in the future.
Perhaps the old “new” Iraqi flag is available, that had a certain resemblance to the Israeli flag, did it not? We’ll just add one of those evil eyes from the dollar bill.

Posted by: ww | Apr 4 2006 12:35 utc | 19

If Americans were willing to work the jobs the immigrants work, in the same conditions (etc.), there would be no ‘problem’ whatsoever.
And so…? If they want to, they can. All they have to do is line up at the proper corner and play nice. Some even do, though I believe it is rare. (?) (One novel on this topic I somewhat enjoyed was “The tortilla curtain” by T. C. Boyle.)
Further, they can emigrate. They can go to India or China, and get better jobs than the locals because of their skills, if they are willing to try hard – e.g. learn Chinese.
Beyond the “what goes round must come round” aura, a bit dumb for sure, hardly a satisfactory response to people whose lives have been downgraded and ripped apart by globalisation, lets not forget that ‘free trade’ and ‘outsourcing’ and ‘globalisation’ have caused the US economy to grow, and pays for roads, schools, pensions (such as they are), Medicare, water, cheap gas, cheap food, etc., as well as semi-decent salaries and ‘development’ for many abroad.
(I’m personally not for this system but to say Americans, like others in the West, haven’t benefited from it is short-sighted.)
Changing that system means taking risks, opposing the Gvmt vs. bashing immigration, legal or illegal. That isn’t an easy thing to do. I see many signs in the US that communities want to fold back onto themselves, and live in a kind of autarcy. Provided it were possible (some state or other might accomplish it, why not?) it would mean deprivation of a kind that would be unacceptable. No more WalMart, no more Japanese cars, no more Chinese toys, its back to stewed cabbage in the winter and Monoply – by candlelight! (my jokes.)
Except – except – if one can also export for big bucks. But then one is in competition…with the world…
Of course autarcy (of a kind, depending on many factors) is exactly what the Xtian fundamentalists and their fellow travellers in the ME are advocating.
Their stern morality, much the same in both places (death to homosexuals, adulterers, patriarchy, etc.) is designed to keep people locked in to the higher being (or his lowly or grandiose representatives on Earth) so that social peace may reign. If murders are committed in the dead of night, the matter is ignored or speedily dealt with (the Xtian sword, the Muslim stoning) and life goes on as usual, the fields must be tilled for people to eat.
Modernity – we blew it. Equality – we blew it. Husbanding the Earth’s resources – we….
(I am economically naive – never took even one course – think ‘economics’ is junk science, a total f-up.)

Posted by: Noisette | Apr 4 2006 15:48 utc | 21

annie
have heard too many versions of “I don’t hate mexicans, but…” in the past few weeks from my fellows here in the great west. they are our external threat, it seems. sadly, so long as this inherent racism is mollified by this or that palliative legislation verifying the “problem” of immigration, the proles will go along for the ride.
this has been a helpful resource from fairly bconservative iummigration expert, harvard’s borjas.

Posted by: slothrop | Apr 4 2006 19:39 utc | 23

I agree with b. Economics is a very good science if understood. But, you can wrap up certain of other sciences in with it. Sociology, political, even geography.
The sociology shows attitudes towards a certain event. Socialization of certain nature or you can call it in immigration tern simulation into the greater society. It is also the issimulation of ideas into the greater society. For instance, free trade has been socialized into the greater society as a good thing, or if your labor, bad thing.
The political is the determination by political will, or in the US case, political force by sway from lobbyist to let certain things happen in legislative matters. For instance, more visas to cater to the business constituency. I have a degree in Public Admin, so I integrate political decisions into public policy. For instance, the city council decides its better to have free garbage service. Why, several reason are: 1. taxes exceed expenditures so the budget has extra money. 2. If you have a contract with one waste hauler you don’t have multiple companies running around your town on different days, 3. You can determine the size of the haulers truck so they don’t tear up streets. Smaller trucks, easier on streets.
The geography can also come into play when it come to stability, resources including human capital, etc. One of the best Profs I had in college was Dr Bray, he came from Uruguay and he taught Population Geography. You may want to look into it. He always talked about the push and pull factor of global immigration and the impact on certain geographic areas. Brain drain is critical in other countries, thats why the Krugman article referenced above states that he is more than willing to let the brightest into the country. The US has been sucking the brightest in from other countries for years because its cheaper to briong in already educated persons than it is to spend the money on our own population. Population Geography is where the geo/economic term “macroeconomic structural displacement” comes from.
Now to economics. There are many areas of economics, but the main theme is “supply and demand.” If there is more of something the price go’s down. If there is less, the price go’s up. This applies to labor also. So all of you running off about the proletariate being sold a bill against “Mexicans” or how the west was won, need to step back from the race issue and look at it in purely economic terms.
If Paul Krugman says to many low skilled laborers is not good and depresses low skilled workers wages by 8%, I can’t find a better liberal economist that I would trust.

Posted by: jdp | Apr 4 2006 21:16 utc | 25

jpd, it is not that i disagree w/krugman. i guess where i get stuck is wondering how one would implement positive change. it seems the structure is all in place, by design w/intention to weaken the middle class because the government seems to function as an arm of business or a facilitator of business instead of being representative of the people. certainly having less representation thru a non voting workforce supports that theory. so its a wall we’ve hit. that is why i think spending the effort to keep people out would be a waste of energy if the jobs are still available for them.
i don’t know how the corporation as personhood fits into this, but if they have as many rights as an individual, how to force their hand if not by representation. are the democrats going to standing up for the middle class? aren’t they bought and sold to? what would motivate a company to raise their wages instead of just jumping ship, going overseas, since they are ultimately competeing w/overseas pricing. this idea that if we didn’t have the competition of the immigrant doesn’t take that into account. if they aren’t hiring them here, what stops them from just hiring them offshore?
whatever legislation got passed that allowed companies to move offshore, this has to be somehow reversed, does it not? so here we have the very representatives that could change all that harping about the immigrants, and giving the corps a free pass. reminds me of the prostitute analogy again. jail the hooker but not the client. meanwhile the wife becomes the biggest victim of all.

Posted by: annie | Apr 4 2006 21:49 utc | 27

annie, this same thing happened during the great in migration of the late 1800s and early 1900s. It was those easterm europeans that were the shit group. The same happened to the Irish. Low IQ, rabble, blah, blah, blah.
Right now, in some quarters, the Russians have a bad name because of the Russian mob. Yet, the Russians are 5th on the scale of the top ten richest ancestry groups. In my opinion ethnicity has nothing to do with anything unless “we” let it be through scapegoating politicians.
My beef is as stated above. I see a two pronged attack on working Americans and the destruction is right down the road. A neighboring community had a plywood plant shut down. We have more state owned property than any state east of the Mississippi. Plenty of wood. The workers came in, no announcement before hand, and were told to go home, the plant was shutting down. It was 250 jobs at the plant. But, there is likely another 250 jobs that wood producers provide. Semis were hauling wood (chips) away for two weeks. Much of it to co-generation plants to be burned as fuel. The management was told the plant was being shuttered because the company can get the plywood cheaper from China. The company is Georgia Pacific.
The electrolux plant closed in Greenville, Michigan, the plant moved to Mexico. Devestated the community. 1500 jobs. Then Federal Mogul filed for bankruptsy and they have one of their plants in Greenville. Flint Michigan just might as well take the towns signs down. There nothing much left.
This whole thing is about the dismantling of America and then piling on. We won’t just dismantle the middle class by offshoring, we’ll really fuck them and let millions into the country un-abated diluting the work force and showing those union bastards.
We are being taken down and the friggin life choked out of us. We are being kicked when were down. And yes, Michigan has a big foriegn worker contengent, especially in the resorts.

Posted by: jdp | Apr 4 2006 22:33 utc | 29

well, jdp. i really do hear you. i read about the electrolux plant. a very old established american company. w/examples like the plywood company(totally absurd, look at the energy involved shipping plywood from china!, i wonder if they send the wood over there to get processed or is it chineese wood?) but its this kind of mentality that is at the root of the evil. once the middle (the ex middle) has had the wind blown out of it, the foriegn workers are just adding insult to injury, salt on the wound, but they are not the cause. the reason i don’t think they are the cause is because the man on the street is being systematically abused and degraded and conditioned to working at the wages the immigrants will work for. and that is the intention.
the more i think about it the more i like the hooker analogy.
if the gov(police) doesn’t come down on the client why should he change, there will always be hookers. meanwhile the guy says, well my wife won’t screw me for free. she wants me to provide for her and help around the house, be responsible. the middle class(wife) has to hold down the fort w/no security and the legislators act like pimps providing the guy w/slave labor, why should he conform and be a responsible husband? the only thing that makes him be responsible is because he is supposed to love his family, feel responsible, know that what is best for his wife is also going to in turn be the best for him. but he’s like drunk or something, treats his wife like crap. basically says i don’t need you because my needs can be met elsewhere. so you are supposed to get by w/no love,no support,fix your own damn car, take care of the kids. now imagine if the wife could just make the cops get rid of the hookers. do you really think that would solve the problem? no, he could just go find himself a younger woman w/no obligation (offshoring). the man has to grow up. not work in kahoots w/the pimps and the crooked cops. if the guy makes his wife happy, he can get all the love he needs, there is no market for the hooker. but how do you ‘make’ a man be responsible? when he doesn’t love you?
the corporations have no loyalty to america. none. hence, the system has to extract compensation, lay down the law, require him to support his family. but the law, is going after the hooker. this will not solve anything. the question is , will the wife become so desperate and abused she will fuck her husband even tho he treats her like shit. this is what the corporations are banking on. the american worker to become slaves, working for a non living wage, no middle, no love.
me, i’d dump the guy. arcata calif has banned corporations from anymore developement in their town. we need to put the screws to the corporations, they are not our friends. stop eating at mc donalds. don’t shop at walmart.
quit licking the hand that slaps you. get a new police force. make them arrest the client.
then go out and find yourself a real man .

Posted by: annie | Apr 4 2006 23:36 utc | 31

the rule of law under this empire, in fact under any empire is just another word for tyranny

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Apr 5 2006 0:22 utc | 33

no-name above, bullshit, we cannot go back in time and re-invent what took place. Sorry, it won’t fly. Was there shit handed to the natives and injustice, hell yah. But we are way beyond that now. We can’t fight 200 years ago or 150 years ago or 100 years ago. I wasn’t born, I had no control where or when I was born or the circumstances. So enough with that shit.
annie, actually, the Chinese have basically taken over Siberia. Siberia is one of the last frontiers. The place is loaded full of minerals, oil, gas, and timber that is virgin. Virgin aspen, and many others. The Chinese have basically invaded Russia and took over.
A business in the town I live in makes blind out of aspen and oak. Sometimes Ash. He was flown to China and been paid big dollars to go there. They want him to help tool their plant to compete and make product that is as good as in the US. He went to a plant. They pay 35 cents per hour and have people waiting outside to get a job. The plants are all fenced in. The floors in the plant, you can eat off of them. Labor is so cheap, the plants are spotless. Constant cleanup crew.
However, the air is so bad in the cities you can’t get a breath. This is what we are competing with.
I work with and coddle business. I have certificates in economic development. I study this crap constantly. If we don’t curb sonme of the current behavior, this country is really fucked.

Posted by: jdp | Apr 5 2006 3:28 utc | 35

@b real it soon became apparent that most Americans believed that the Iraqi’s lacked the innate ability to appreciate the opportunity to be given them by liberating American armies
😉
we cannot go back in time and re-invent what took place.
maybe if you provided the passage w/the re-inventiom this thought might be clearer. the idea all of those people became labelled as foreigners (Mexicans) seems accurate to me, creating this illusion when you look at the landscape “they’, illegals, are everywhere. the people who first settled here, have been here longest and have every right to consider themselves american. my sisters husband (chavez) tho spanish via mexico, all his family lives in a 5 mile radius of eachother, just like they have for generations. the grandfather, a marine, now my nephew following that tradition(it pains me). yet he goes to look for work and he is classified as mexican. those people in la at the rally, all 1 million of them, you don’t really think the majority of them have just shown up do you.in LA? get real. the attitude that we are way beyond that now is not so. we are not way beyond that. who is the one stuck 100 or 200 years ago?
the majority of hispanics in the southwest have roots there much longer than many of the whites do to america.
try not to take all the anger and blame that you rightfully feel towards the injustice w/the work situation and blame it on ‘mexicans’. just try. it will not help. we have much bigger fish to fry. actually , they are more like sharks.

Posted by: annie | Apr 5 2006 4:44 utc | 37

Frig it. Obviously with the last two post, you’s just fail to get it. No matter what it come down to race or who was here first or those bad ol whities and their manifest destiny. People fail to see it in solely economic terms
Jusdt rememjber one thing, and this will be it. We, middle and lower class USA. are at war. It isn’t with Mexico, or China, or India, or anyone else unless our master in DC want it. We are at war with corporate and elitist USA. And we’re losing.
Ny last post on this thread.

Posted by: jdp | Apr 5 2006 11:53 utc | 39

Just remember one thing, and this will be it. We, middle and lower class USA. are at war. It isn’t with Mexico, or China, or India, or anyone else unless our master in DC want it. We are at war with corporate and elitist USA. And we’re losing.
Yep – looks likely for the moment. But such wars have been going on for centuries and there are already signs of a backslash against corporatists.
We need a new unionization program though with a broader base. Not related to craft but to class or locality.

Posted by: b | Apr 5 2006 12:45 utc | 41

i’m sorry jdp, it appears i misinterpreted some of you comments and offended you. i apologize. i agree w/you about the core value here absolutely. last comment for me here too. i promise.

Posted by: annie | Apr 5 2006 19:12 utc | 43