Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
March 26, 2006
Sí se puede!

Finally an issue that brings masses onto the streets of U.S. cities. That alone is already good, because it will show people how they do have power if they stand up.

But the issue at hand is problematic. Progressives seem split on it. On one side, immigrants raise the potential workforce and thereby put pressure on wages. On the other side, for a nation based on immigration like the U.S., it is difficult to find a moral justification to stop it.

The mighty industries paying the right want the immigration wage cap and the new market it creates. But conservatives also want security which they see endangered by the inflow.

This will be a defining issue for the 2006 elections. But I fail to see a consistent positions on the issue in either party.

Comments

The popular red state base hates immigration, but the transnationals that it supports wants it, the left wing liberals want it but not for the same reasons as the transnationals. Like the port controversy, the liberals will watch the republican base tear itself apart thinking the republican agenda is nationalistic when its really about trans-nationalism. The liberals will assume more immigration will shore up their base — as the demonstrations (outta the blue) would confirm. If there are no borders who needs nationalism, or american exceptionalism — bring it on.

Posted by: anna missed | Mar 26 2006 11:54 utc | 1

Quote:
If there are no borders who needs nationalism, or american exceptionalism — bring it on.
***
Ah dreams…

Posted by: vbo | Mar 26 2006 12:03 utc | 2

the immigration problem could be solved immediately if law enforcement went to the root of the problem. if employers of illegals were seriously fined and/or imprisoned the issue would be dead.
everything else is a distraction. the dems find themselves in a fine dilemna here, on one hand they should stick up for illegal’s rights…though I believe they should be sticking up for legal’s rights first and on the other hand they know that illegals working for lower wages lowers the wages for everyone.
the wingnuts are better positioned, they can claim to be against illegal immigration and will find many poor who will tend to agree with them. They need not worry that any of their actions will interfere with the small businessmen and farmers who actually employ illegals because there will always be an ample supply. after all, a supposed war on drugs which costs billions every year has had the net effect of lowering drug prices on the street.
this will be the wedge for November and it will be successful.
imho

Posted by: dan of steele | Mar 26 2006 12:30 utc | 3

I just wonder why the Dems remain largely silent on the war, illegal wiretapping, etc., but just have to back illegal immigration. It kind of seems like they are working in tandem with the Reps toward the same goals. I don’t think that they are concerned with retaking power. One party rule seems to work for both the Reps and Dems today.
I agree that this is the new gay marriage for the 2006 midterms. I’m betting that a lot of these people can’t vote, but the white working class can, and they won’t be happy with this.

Posted by: la | Mar 26 2006 13:04 utc | 4

You have noticed this only now? It’s so obvious for quite some time now and on so many issues…
That’s why USA is damned and a lot of us others with it…
You/we are not given any choice…

Posted by: vbo | Mar 26 2006 13:39 utc | 5

This is the consequence of NAFTA. It destroyed the Mexican Economy and now the Mexicans are coming to the US to get jobs.

Posted by: Don Quijote | Mar 26 2006 14:07 utc | 6

Is the USA ready to build a thirteen-foot razor wire-topped fence from the Gulf coast to the Pacific shores (from sea to shining sea, as the song goes) and control the influx of immigrants at regulated checkpoints?
Are we willing to do without the cheap labor we have come to rely on to harvest our crops, tend our lawns and clean our houses during the day and our offices at night?
Are we willing to create a bureaucracy to deal with the paperwork associated with issuing work and residence permits for the immigrants we do let in?
These are all questions that seem to get brushed aside in the heated ideological & political posturing surrounding the immigration debate.

Posted by: ralphieboy | Mar 26 2006 15:16 utc | 7

anyone else notice how no one published any aerial photos of the anti war demo in nyc during the republican convention? its rare demonstrations get this kind of coverage. are these photos meant to scare or enrage viewers, knowing there are THIS MANY hispanics out there?
california couldn’t survive without immigrant labor. that goes for washington state also, you think a bunch of whites are going to sign up for seasonal jobs for the harvests.start clamoring for all those dishwashing jobs in the backrooms of restaurants across the country?
maybe they want to clear out all the immigrants to make way for the newly poor competeing for minimun wage jobs. something has to replace the manufacturing going overseas.

Posted by: annie | Mar 26 2006 17:34 utc | 8

This issue as I posted in another thread is a loser for the dems. The Rethugs will ride this issue all the way to victory in November if the dems play this wrong. Joe sixpack is getting very tired of seeing his wages being depressed. Not only is global trade depressing wages, now the open borders policy of both dems and rethugs is further depressing wages.
As far as seasonal jobs go, if those businesses would pay a decent wage others would be willing to work many of those jobs. The cost of living has shot up astronomically and wages haven’t kept up. I really don’t see how immigranst can live, besides the whole family racked up together in one house or apartment. On a side not, agricultural prices are the one thing that remained steady over the last forty years in price. Its cheaper to eat now than at any time. Immigrant labor helps keep food cost artificially low.
I am mixed on the whole issue. We need more workers to help to help take care of us greedy self centered boomers ove the next thirty to forty years. This influx will remake the us population landscape.
You should read the Detroit papers every day and you could see why many joe sixpacks are pissed. Whole ways of life are changing and free trade is the reason. But, the problem is immigrants will get blamed even though greedy corps and cheap labor loving politicians are the fault.
The rethugs will play on this anger this year. While they allow elites to destroy the middle class, they will use this wedge issue to win.

Posted by: jdp | Mar 26 2006 18:05 utc | 9

The Dems need to come up with some concept/slogan:
How about “For Controlled Immigration” and “Against Uncontrolled Trade” etc. Should fit the real conservatives too.

Posted by: b | Mar 26 2006 18:18 utc | 10

If there are no borders who needs nationalism, or american exceptionalism — bring it on.
Absolutely – I’ve always wanted to live in the resulting neo-feudal Pirates Police States that would come into being.

Posted by: jj | Mar 26 2006 18:30 utc | 11

jdp
crisis, what crisis?
From DMI (I’m not entirely familiar w/ this policy group):

As of 2004, 35.7 million U.S. residents were born in another country, according to estimates by the Pew Hispanic Center based on the Census Bureau’s Current Population Survey.2 The foreign-born make up about 12 percent of the total U.S. population. Seventy-one percent of these immigrants (25.4 million U.S. residents) entered the country legally, including 3 percent of immigrants who are temporary legal residents (students or temporary workers), 7 percent who are refugees, 30 percent who are legal permanent residents and 31 percent who are naturalized citizens. The remaining 29 percent of foreign-born residents of the United States are undocumented immigrants. The Pew Hispanic Center estimates that there were 10.3 million undocumented immigrants in the
U.S. in 2004.3
More than half of the immigrants to the United States were born in Latin America, while a quarter were born in Asia and just over 13 percent came from Europe.4 About 6.5 percent of immigrants were born in other areas of
the world, including Africa, Oceania and North America. Looking only at undocumented immigrants, a much larger percentage—81 percent—came from Latin America. This includes the 57 percent of undocumented immigrants (5.9 million people) who were born in Mexico. Meanwhile 9 percent of undocumented immigrants were born in Asia, 6 percent were born in Europe or Canada and 4 percent were born elsewhere.

The paper I quote from here emphasizes undocumented workers at most suppress wages and benefits for other workers because illegals will not join unions because employers threaten deportation. so, the answer is: all workers should have the right to organize.
the bogeyman of immigration is, it seems, just more bullshit in the vortex of pro-capital/pro-global/neoliberal ideology. it works. workers blame mexicans for declining welfare, rather than unionize and attack capital.
now, which party benefits from this ongoing legitimation of power at the expense of the welfare of joe 6pack? you can bet both parties will continue to offer the wetback as convenient whipping post. and the only “wedge-issue” this will ever be is the wedge dividing workers from solidarity. mexican v. joe sixpack, shia v. sunni, woman v. man…on and on, and every such conflict and sectatrian squabble yet another mask for the only true and ongoing conflict: class war. sustaining these factions is crucial to both dem and repub defense of the capitalist class.

Posted by: slothrop | Mar 26 2006 19:18 utc | 12

after joe 6pack has exhausted himself hunting mexicans along the border like some antihero in a cormack mccarthy novel, joe might think of some other way. but even when joe throws in the towel and degradingly sits at the table w/ immigrants to organize and fight capital, it’ll be too late. for no matter what we might say about neoliberalism, it sure has made even the threat of labor organization useless. capital is mobile, and labor is not. now more than ever, this is true.

Posted by: slothrop | Mar 26 2006 19:46 utc | 13

jj,
think i had too much sarcasm to drink last night

Posted by: anna missed | Mar 26 2006 20:18 utc | 14

anna missed, myself as well! I’ve been regretted being that sarcastic since I posted it.
It’s so distressing not seeing any of the so-called “liberal” blogs taking this on…of course, they’re trying to curry elite favor just like corporate newspapers. I was very struck by this when I heard interview w/Jim Straub that I posted Thurs. or Fri. nite on open thread. He’s a Union Organizer & was discussing the devastation of Ohio due to Pirates policies. I realized these bloggers get all excited when they get to go meet w/elite or travel to major metropolis blah blah,…but no concern w/travelling to Ohio and other areas getting gutted by the policies they espouse. It’s the same smug, arrogant elitism that’s more concerned to curry favor than challenge power.

Posted by: jj | Mar 26 2006 20:44 utc | 15

Sorry Slothrop that does not correlate w/what’s happening on the ground w/industry after industry of unionized or well paying jobs being destroyed by importation of foreigners who are stealing American jobs. Or even look to New Orleans, which most definitely should be rebuilt by those who lived there. Bring in the trailers for them to live & let them rebuild their city. I don’t give a shit if the Latinas are organized or not, it’s not their city. Similarly, this story that was posted @alternet was repeated all over the Midwest Meat Packing/butchering plants.
“I live in Nebraska in a rural area. In the 60’s and 70’s, work at the local packing plants paid a VERY good middle-class wage—almost $22/hour in today’s money—and they had a strong Union. Sure, it was hard dirty work, but that didn’t bother farm kids used to such work and who were anxious for a job over the summer to earn some money. It also provided a good full time job for those who wanted to work hard and move up. I had many farmer/neighbors who got a good income working there.
    Well—in the 1980’s companies like Tyson cut the wages by 50%, boosted the line from 60 to 200 animals/hour–and then started bringing in Mexican workers (even setting up employment recruiting offices along the border). They busted the local union when it went on strike, and then claimed they “couldn’t find enough local workers” to justify their importing of illegals.
    So now little towns around here that used to be local farming centers are 60% Mexican. Local Andy Griffith sheriffs have to deal with Mexican drug gangs that make the Bloods and the Crips look like Boy Scouts. We had a bank robbery last year in Norfolk Nebraska (pop. 25000) where a Mexican bank robber killed 5 people in cold blood.”

Add to Meat Packing, Janitorial – used to be black unionized jobs, & now Construction. Used to be able to pay a mortgage doing construction. Now, out here anyway, the illegals have muscled in & its’ $10/hr. cash….

Posted by: jj | Mar 26 2006 20:56 utc | 16

The flood of illegals is so extreme now, that even WaPo & Newsweek columnist, economist Robt. Samuelson, just wrote We Don’t Need ‘Guest Workers’
Guest workers would mainly legalize today’s vast inflows of illegal immigrants, with the same consequence: We’d be importing poverty. …What we have now — and would with guest workers — is a conscious policy of creating poverty in the United States while relieving it in Mexico. By and large, this is a bad bargain for the United States.

But what would happen if new illegal immigration stopped and wasn’t replaced by guest workers? Well, some employers would raise wages to attract U.S. workers. Facing greater labor costs, some industries would — like the tomato growers in the 1960s — find ways to minimize those costs. As to the rest, what’s wrong with higher wages for the poorest workers? From 1994 to 2004, the wages of high school dropouts rose only 2.3 percent (after inflation) compared with 11.9 percent for college graduates.

Posted by: jj | Mar 26 2006 21:05 utc | 17

jj
fucking mexicans.

Posted by: slothrop | Mar 26 2006 21:07 utc | 18

protectionism of labor benefits only the industrialized countries. “free trade” and economic “liberalization” is ostensibly good for developing world, but does have the effect of lowering wage rates in the industrialized world.
this is a core contradiction of global capital accumulation. mitigating the effects of this contradiction is strategic protectionism (like textiles,. steel, agribusiness) and deficit spending to prop up domestic consumption in lieu of rising wages. of course, these policies are deleterious to developing world and the expansion of markets there.
excluding 10 million undocumented workers from job competition is hardly a panacea for US workers harmed by this contradiction of global capital accumulation.

Posted by: slothrop | Mar 26 2006 21:23 utc | 19

to be sure, I’m no expert. just the belief I have informed by the pile of books and articles I’ve recently read about globalization. billmon’s current suggested readings are very helpful.

Posted by: slothrop | Mar 26 2006 21:26 utc | 20

someone needs to have a time-out here.
has anyone ever looked at how much it really costs to pay domestic workers a living wage? Of course from the employers POV illegals will cost less and boost his bottom line. But the overall costs must be higher with illegals than they would be with legal workers.
with illegals there is no tax base to pay for infrastructure. the roads and sewers are still needed so someone else has to pay for that. The unemployed will drain what little social safety net that exists and there are fewer and fewer contributing to workmans comp and the like.
social security also needs some inflow to keep solvent and the illegals sure are not contributing there either.
to quote or paraphrase ole Ben Franklin, this seems penny wise and pound foolish.
it is completely wrong to blame the mexicans for these woes and I know you are being sarcastic slothrop. if I am even close to seeing the big picture it seems that some public education is needed as to what the true costs of guest workers and illegals really is. A good coherent argument as to why raising the minimum wage is good for everyone would also be useful.
I am definitely an optimistic pragmatist but I have to believe that this can be fixed. It should be done in a gradual and non-threatening way and it requires that the slaves become actively involved in determining their futures. daunting, yes. impossible, maybe. worth a try? I think so.

Posted by: dan of steele | Mar 26 2006 21:31 utc | 21

dan
I am at the present time unconvinced “illegals” are anything more than a clever ideological distraction, jj’s evidence & anecdotes notwithstanding.

Posted by: slothrop | Mar 26 2006 21:38 utc | 22

one other thing. ten million illegals may not solve all the problems labor is having but removing them would have to help. the key word is illegal. I am not proposing the elimination of immigration though even that is worthy of consideration. I think unrestricted immigration damages both the receiving and sending country, there is no motivation to fix the problems causing emigration when there is place where all the unemployed can run to.
where are unemployed US workers to go? we will have to deal with the problem of domestic unemployment and we will have to deal with it because Mexico can’t or won’t deal with their own.
most people just want to be able to live comfortably and don’t need private jets and the like. this must be attainable. I can not believe that the only way to this is through huge multinational corporations and globalisation.

Posted by: dan of steele | Mar 26 2006 21:45 utc | 23

I am at the present time unconvinced “illegals” are anything more than a clever ideological distraction
I may be getting wrapped around the axle with this. I tend to agree that cheap foreign labor has a negative affect on the rest of us slaves.
I was speaking to a guy who works in IT in central Florida. He told me that they are hiring a lot of Indians because the Indians will work for 30$ an hour and Murkans want and need 60$ per hour to survive. Having been out of the US for many years I found that all quite hard to believe as I can not imagine how bad off all those people who make minimum wage must be even if they work two or three jobs. nevertheless, that is what he believed. he told me that the Indians could work with less money because they stayed all together in a rented house.
so what does that do to the rest of the IT field? well it scares me, knowing that I can be replaced by a temp worker who will stay in the US for a short while does not make me embrace globalism. we were promised the high tech jobs and assumed that little brown people would make shoes and other labor intensive items. now the little brown people want the tech jobs too. what is left for us? service industry? are we all to wait on each other and clean each other’s homes?
this stinks.

Posted by: dan of steele | Mar 26 2006 21:58 utc | 24

it stinks. yes. but who is the enemy? who has been internalizing the productivity gains of the global economy? it is the capitalist class. all workers are ripped off by them.
I also think it is high time the heroic white collar worker, piller of the postindustrial economy, enemy of unions and the welfare state, the paragons of goldwater’s silent majority, is now “threatened” by bangalore engineers and mbas. these soccer mommies and metrosexuals reap what sow. good.

Posted by: slothrop | Mar 26 2006 22:08 utc | 25

dan
still, the interests of the indian engineer and yourself must be one, so that some mutual strategy can benefit you both. realizing such solidarity is daunting, if not impossible.
global capitalists are smart, I’ll say.

Posted by: slothrop | Mar 26 2006 22:17 utc | 26

the seeming impossibility of global labor organization is the most salient example of the immobility of labor and the mobility of capital.

Posted by: slothrop | Mar 26 2006 22:25 utc | 27

I also think it is high time the heroic white collar worker, piller of the postindustrial economy, enemy of unions and the welfare state, the paragons of goldwater’s silent majority, is now “threatened” by bangalore engineers and mbas. these soccer mommies and metrosexuals reap what sow. good.
At least Slothrop has finally clarified her position. Hopefully she’ll get fired soon & likewise have to do shitwork for a pittance as well. And have her house swept away under Kelo, which she also thought might be beneficial. She’s Exhibit A to those who I thght. were idiots in media etc., who referred to leftists as American haters.

Posted by: jj | Mar 26 2006 22:56 utc | 28

slothrop, your premise that capital is fluent and labor is not is clearly wrong. Guest worker programs, migrant workers, and all of the illegals are mobile labor. It’s just like anyone within the US. Most labor is mobile these days. Many kids from our area headed to the Katrina areas to find work. Thats mobile labor.
Capital could become less mobile if people were smarter about investing. As I have said many times, monie going into 401ks are feeding the outsourcing of jobs. If you want to create jobs here, start 401k and IRAs that onlt invest locally and in your state. Whoever creates jobs in your state you buy their stock. If they have unfair labor practises or hire illegals, your sell their stock. We have to take the decision making away from Wall Street. Calpers welds much power. It could do even more if it wanted.
The system will only be cured if we take it upon ourselves to gewt educated and make smart decisions on such things as investment.
The 401k issue is the one that could break the globalist back and put the power back into the people.

Posted by: jdp | Mar 26 2006 23:05 utc | 29

No, JJ. my humble suggestion is the need to clearly acknowledge who is responsible for the disappearing middleclass. all the woes of the middle cannot be blamed on the stateless wetback, but on the confiscation of the future by a global capitalist class.
jj, you could tomorrow wipe away all your despised immigrants and the welfare of the workers would not improve one cent. that is certain.

Posted by: slothrop | Mar 26 2006 23:07 utc | 30

Guest worker programs, migrant workers, and all of the illegals are mobile labor.
this is a trivial example of what I mean by “mobility.” unlike labor, capital has a “virtual senate” as chomsky would say of laws, trading “instruments” and insider communication advantages. labor has no corresponding global institutions. this is what is meant by “mobility” across space & time.

Posted by: slothrop | Mar 26 2006 23:15 utc | 31

fwiw, slothrop, i am with you on this. globalisation, not mexicans, is the problem. i have spent a good deal of time in mexico and advise my friends there to remain there. there may not be any money, but the quality of life (and the food) is better there and they aren’t treated like criminals just because they exist. i am not an expert on economics but it seems reasonable to think that if the illegal workers here were considered legal and both they and businesses were required to pay taxes two things would happen – we would have more tax dollars and wages would have to rise to make it possible to survive while paying taxes. on a personal level, i see this happening with a mexican friend who is becoming legal this year and is facing a tax bill for the first time. it is a complex situation, but he has been working illegally for nearly 10 years for someone involved in film production and now is driving film trucks as part of the teamster’s union. at first the teamsters looked at him as an interloper, but with time he is being accepted. as slothrop said, if the playing field is leveled and everyone is legal and dealing with the same wage issues, then there will be solidarity and the business owners will be forced to deal. yet, as i write this, i find myself thinking how circular it all is because there are so few jobs here now. i wonder how high the cost of oil will have to go before it becomes less profitable to manufacture abroad and ship? i worked this past year for a person who manufactures denim in jordan. the bulk of the workers at his factory come from sri lanka. the guy who owns the deli around the corner is from jordan, here because he could not find work as a chef in jordan nor would his deli be a viable business there. naturally, he is hiring arab workers who i imagine are most likely not legal. i like to think that there the goodness in humanity will step up and solve this situation somehow. but more likely it will just get uglier and uglier until it becomes a confrontation between the haves and have nots. i will end this comment here because i have no answers and do not have the background to come up with a cogent theory of how to solve it or how it will resolved.

Posted by: conchita | Mar 26 2006 23:38 utc | 32

One could note that the more illegal a worker is the less he/she is paid. Thus working for legalization of illegal workers is working for higher wages for all. I believe the spanish unions has chosen this strategy.
But in the long run, the privileged position for workers in the rich (former colony-owing) countries at the expense of the workers in the poor (former colony) countries is falling. I see this mostly as as a consequence of the failing power-position of the rich countries (can no longer control the worlds division of labor tasks) in combination with the lack of a credible alternative to capitalism (the elite has no fear of getting killed in communist upheavals and thus lacks the interest of having decent living-standards in their immediate surrondings (countries)).

Posted by: a swedish kind of death | Mar 26 2006 23:57 utc | 33

Slothrop, I never said a damn thing about despising immigrants – yr. reading comprehension is very poor.

Posted by: jj | Mar 27 2006 0:35 utc | 34

I know what you meant, but to say labor has no mobility is wrong. The thing to do, as I pointed out, is to make the capital of the masses that Wall Street is sucking out of the heartland through 401Ks, less mobile.
Can the factory worker in Michigan chase his job to China/ no. But if that same company wasn’t using investment into its own stock with its 401K plan to move jobs, that would be real power to the workers.
The employees investment plans are rigged to fatten the stock price of CEOs and leverage cheap money and sometimes, move those jobs away.
conchita, your right that giving all illegals amnesty would take illegals out of the underground economy. But the problem is, the next wave will start, and twenty years later we have the problem again. An amnesty was done in 1986. If we do an amnesty, a substantial border security measure will be the requirement. The thing also to remember is many businesses like the underground economy because its cheaper. No SS to match, no medicare to match, no fling and cutting a check to the state and feds quarterly for taxes, no workmans comp, no W-4s etc, etc.

Posted by: jdp | Mar 27 2006 0:42 utc | 35

jdp, yes all of those costs of doing business will apply. will it result in more tax dollars to support infrastructure or will it result in businesses going under? in the case i mentioned, a friend built a new business by hiring illegal workers. he paid them a decent wage – $100/day in cash (not bad 9 years ago) – and together he and his work force built a substantial business. he did not pay payroll taxes, health insurance, workmen’s comp, etc., but he does take care of their medical bills and has tried to help some of them become legal, and pays disability to a couple. i don’t think he would allow the business to go under should he be forced to take on the costs he should be paying. i am not trying to champion not paying taxes (him or his workers) but i wonder if there is much difference in this and the corporations sending their work overseas. one gets a legal tax break, the other just takes it. one difference is that the immigrants here, legal and illegal, are consumers and contribute to our economy whereas the sir lankan workers in my previous employer’s jordan factory just increase his profits and he then hides money offshore and in complicated trusts concocted by high-priced attorneys. i still say do an amnesty. these people have been here contributing to our economy and deserve it. i question if we will be looking at the same situation in 20 years because i wonder if more potential illegal immigrants will think twice about coming to a place where there are no jobs and not enough of an appreciable improvement in quality of life to make it worth leaving home and family.

Posted by: conchita | Mar 27 2006 1:11 utc | 36

jdp, one other thing – i agree with your point on the 401ks, but would like to expand it to say that socially responsible investing across the board would make an enormous difference in the global economy. unfortunately, most people think this pertains to investments in tobacco companies and don’t realize it should include everything from environmental concerns, to ethical practices, to wage policies, and everything in between. there is a website called big picture tv which presents a collection of talking head presentations by visionaries from all over the world. amy domini heads up a socially responsible fund and talks about her sucesses with the gap and how she sets benchmarks and formulates goals. highly recommend her presentation and the site, particularly on one of those days when you think the world is falling apart – gives me hope to know that there are these brilliant people out there who continue to try to make a difference.

Posted by: conchita | Mar 27 2006 1:21 utc | 37

social security also needs some inflow to keep solvent and the illegals sure are not contributing there either.
not so. from last july, Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions

…As the debate over Social Security heats up, the estimated seven million or so illegal immigrant workers in the United States are now providing the system with a subsidy of as much as $7 billion a year.
While it has been evident for years that illegal immigrants pay a variety of taxes, the extent of their contributions to Social Security is striking: the money added up to about 10 percent of last year’s surplus – the difference between what the system currently receives in payroll taxes and what it doles out in pension benefits. Moreover, the money paid by illegal workers and their employers is factored into all the Social Security Administration’s projections.
Illegal immigration, Marcelo Suárez-Orozco, co-director of immigration studies at New York University, noted sardonically, could provide “the fastest way to shore up the long-term finances of Social Security.”
It is impossible to know exactly how many illegal immigrant workers pay taxes. But according to specialists, most of them do. Since 1986, when the Immigration Reform and Control Act set penalties for employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants, most such workers have been forced to buy fake ID’s to get a job.

Posted by: b real | Mar 27 2006 3:28 utc | 38

from last april

Posted by: b real | Mar 27 2006 3:30 utc | 39

I don’t see this issue as a political winner for the Republicans, although it’s possible the Dems could screw up so badly it turns into a loser for them. I still say the ’06 election rallying cry will be to keep the Dems from controlling Congress because if they do… “they’ll be gunning to impeach the President and Vice-President, and NANCY-FREAKING-PELOSI would be next in line.” I think that’s about all they’ve got to scare their base with, and I think it’ll probably work.

Posted by: mats | Mar 27 2006 3:37 utc | 40

All this is entertaining.
I’m sure the Dems will choose the wrong side of the issue.
Seems they already have.
They seem to be able to accomplish this feat, every election cycle.

Posted by: Groucho | Mar 27 2006 3:49 utc | 41

Paul Krugman chips in (column “liberated” here

First, the net benefits to the U.S. economy from immigration, aside from the large gains to the immigrants themselves, are small. Realistic estimates suggest that immigration since 1980 has raised the total income of native-born Americans by no more than a fraction of 1 percent.
Second, while immigration may have raised overall income slightly, many of the worst-off native-born Americans are hurt by immigration — especially immigration from Mexico. Because Mexican immigrants have much less education … they increase the supply of less-skilled labor, driving down the wages of the worst-paid Americans. The most authoritative recent study … by George Borjas and Lawrence Katz of Harvard, estimates that U.S. high school dropouts would earn as much as 8 percent more if it weren’t for Mexican immigration.
That’s why it’s intellectually dishonest to say, as President Bush does, that immigrants do “jobs that Americans will not do.” The willingness of Americans to do a job depends on how much that job pays — and the reason some jobs pay too little to attract native-born Americans is competition from poorly paid immigrants. Finally, … our social safety net has more holes in it than it should — and low-skill immigrants threaten to unravel that safety net. … Unfortunately, low-skill immigrants don’t pay enough taxes to cover the cost of the benefits they receive.

Mr. Bush’s plan for a “guest worker” program is clearly designed by and for corporate interests, who’d love to have a low-wage work force that couldn’t vote. Not only is it deeply un-American; it does nothing to reduce the adverse effect of immigration on wages. And because guest workers would face the prospect of deportation after a few years, they would have no incentive to become integrated into our society.
What about a guest-worker program that includes a clearer route to citizenship? I’d still be careful. … it could all too easily … create a permanent underclass of disenfranchised workers. We need to do something about immigration, and soon. But I’d rather see Congress fail to agree on anything this year than have it rush into ill-considered legislation that betrays our moral and democratic principles.

Posted by: b | Mar 27 2006 6:43 utc | 42

Wow. What a problem. I’ve worked for an hour on drafting some kind of rational contribution and am no closer now than when I started.
The one thing that doesn’t sound like a good idea is to permanently institutionalize these people as second-class citizens. Likewise, the current prohibition-like regime where everybody cheats and the lawlessness and exploitation undermine society is no good.
There has to be a better way.
If what Conchita says is true, and the quality of life is actually better in Mexico, the only reason people are going through hell to get here and putting up with abuse once they are here is to be able to get US dollars, either to save or send home. When those dollars are not worth as much they won’t bother.
Of course, that’s a pretty painful cure.

Posted by: PeeDee | Mar 27 2006 9:03 utc | 43

Some estimates on the LA demonstration run as high as a million. On a shoestring budget, the latino grapevine coughs up a cool million on the street overnight — what are we missing here?

Posted by: anna missed | Mar 27 2006 9:57 utc | 44

Yes anna missed. Hundreds and hundreds of thousands and with a dress code too!

Posted by: beq | Mar 27 2006 14:27 utc | 45

The Illegal Immigration Controversy is the new Gay Marriage. Just as Karl Rove’s Spin Machine raised the Gay Marriage issue prior to elections in 2004 as a way split the Democratic base (many Catholics sided Republican on this issue), this election year’s contreversy is meant to split the Democratic base…particularly in the face of a potential Democratic onslaught – brought on only by Republican incompetency (as demostrated by 30% Approval Ratings). Divide and Conquer…a tactic that is thousands of years old…yet still brilliant. Think about it:
> Urban Blacks feel overrun by Mexicans. Mexicans typically find affordable housing in traditionally Black neighborhoods. We move in, bring in our language, markets, restaurants etc., and compete for jobs… against a group that was already struggling to survive.
Our protests, with Mexican Flags waving and chants of “Si Se Puede” not to mention the regular eruptions of violence of Mexican and Black Students in Local High Schools as well as Jails…only adds fuel to the fire.
> Poor Whites throughout the Rust Belt lost their high paying union jobs to globablization…and must now compete for traditionally lower paying service jobs or non-unionized manufacturing jobs. Even though there aren’t many Mexicans in those places…they fear that we will come in and further lower wages.
Also, when a group of people has lost as much in a short period of time (20 to 30 years)…they are bound to feel threatened, insecure and fearful….they are the perfect victims of the Nationalist, Anti-Immigrant Rhetoric Machines. Poor Whites will find easy to blame all their problems on the easiest scape goats.
> Non-Mexican Latinos (particularly those that are here on Political Asylum and other “Legal” Methods) & Long Time Mexican-Americans are also easy prey for the Anti-Immigration Campaigns. They see themselves as a vulnerable group who is barely able to survive…and doesn’t need to be associated with bad press Illegal Immigrants receive. They also wish Illegal Immigrants just dissappeared.
Mexican-Americans are particularly resent the Mexicanness of recent waves of Immigrants. They often displace their feeling of not belong anywhere, of not speaking Spanish, and not knowing more about their ancestor’s culture and those that do.
So as you can see, Rove and his machine is ready to play on these fissures and differences. If he has his way its going to be the Upper Middle Class Liberals + Recent Mexican Immigrants versus Blacks + Poor Whites + Non-Mexican Latinos + Long Time Mexican-Americans….and the Democrats will stand no chance. This is a looming disaster.
Why is this a looming disaster? We are in the 6th year of one of the absolute worst eras in American governance. Its not just President Bush and his Cabinet…the Republicans also dominate Congress and the Supreme Courts…and what do we have to show for it?
Iraq, Social Security, Record Deficits (Budget, Trade & Current Account)…not much else accomplished….and the 30% Approval Rates show the vast amount of Americans feel this way too.
Anti-Immigration is not a real issue for 2006…it is just a smokescreen. Do not let Rove make it an issue…it can wait one more year.

Posted by: Pepe | Mar 27 2006 14:29 utc | 46

I am greatly saddened to see how easy it is to control and misdirect the vast energies of so many well-intentioned people. Why, we must ask ourselves, are we so historically ignorant and so emotionally reactive? How easy is it to misdirect, and blunt, the will of the people? How can people be made to work against their interests?
1 M Latinos marching for immigration, and soon there will be 1 M poor whites marching against it. The rich have to be laughing all the way to the bank! Either they get cheaper workers and the final unraveling of whatever social safety net is left, or they get another “war.” All Americans, rich and poor, love wars. War on poverty, War on drugs, War on Terrorism, and now we get the War on illegal immigration. More money spent on the penal state, which the elite feel is still too small, and the paramilitarization of the police.
You all remind me of the story of the Five blind men and the elephant:

Once upon a time, five blind men came upon an elephant.
“What is this?!” asked the first one, who had run headlong into its side.
“It’s an Elephant.” said the elephant’s keeper, who was sitting on a stool, cleaning the elephant’s harness.
“Wow! So this is an Elephant! I’ve always wondered what Elephants are like!” said the man, running his hands as far as he could reach up and down the elephant’s side. “Why, it’s just like a wall! A large, warm wall!”
“What do you mean, a wall?” said the second man, wrapping his arms around the elephant’s leg. “This is nothing like a wall. You can’t reach around a wall! This is more like a pillar. Yeah, that’s it! An Elephant is exactly like a pillar!”
“A pillar? Strange kind of pillar!” said the third man, stroking the elephant’s trunk. “It’s too thin, for one thing, and it’s too flexible for another. If you think this is a pillar, I don’t want to go to your house! This is more like a snake. See, it’s wrapping around my arm! An Elephant is just like a snake!”
“Snakes don’t have hair!” said the fourth man in disgust, pulling the elephant’s tail. “You are closer than the others, but I’m surprised that you missed the hair. This isn’t a snake, it’s a rope. Elephants are exactly like ropes.”
“I don’t know what you guys are on!” the fifth man cried, waving the elephant’s ear back and forth. “It’s as large as a wall, all right, but thin as a leaf, and no more flexible than any piece of cloth this size should be. I don’t know what’s wrong with all of you, but no one except a complete idiot could mistake an Elephant for anything except a sail!!!”
And as the elephant stepped aside, they tramped off down the road, arguing more loudly and violently as they went, each sure that he, and he alone, was right; and all the others were wrong.
The Elephant keeper sighed, and went back to polishing the harness, while the elephant winked solemnly at him.

I have already spoken as eloquently as I am able about the nature of the elephant, and gotten no response. Now some raw meat is thrown out to the starving masses, and like beasts, they rush over themselves to tear at it.
I refuse to discuss this issue on this level, because there is no positive response at this level. Feel-good, liberal, stop-gap solutions only diminish social pressure, and aid and abet the spread of death within the empire.
What do you call a bunch of doctors arguing over how to treat the patient, how to allay his pain, when none of them has done a diagnosis? Quacks and charlatans, who should be tried for malpractice. You remind me of the ridiculous debate several months ago about Iraq between Juan Cole and Helena Cobban, where they each argued what “should” be done, without first stating what they saw the problem to be, or taking into account the power dynamics of the situation. “The US ‘should’ do this. No, the US ‘should’ do that.” 500 comments, without any solid ground to stand upon. Clueless, in the US.
Until the problem is understood, all attempts at solution only make the problem worse.
People think the US lost the Vietnam war (due to popular protest), when it did nothing of the sort. Vietnam is now an impovershed outpost of mad “rush to the bottom” neo-liberal capitalism, its bought and paid for government a staunch foe of China, just like the US/Global elite always intended. Yes, the militarized killing was halted in that corner of the globe (and replaced by slow starving, birth defects and trepanned victims of the persistent landmine), only to metastasize to other parts of the globe.
First, let us diagnose the problem with Mexican and Latin American immigration. It would be helpful to read the writings of an inhabitant of the area we call Mexico first. Subcomandante Insurgente Marcos (not to be confused with the little man, “Marcos of Kos”) of the Zapatista Army of National Liberation, based in Chiapas, talks about The Seven Loose Pieces of the Global Jigsaw Puzzle (Neoliberalism as a puzzle: the useless global unity which fragments and destroys nations). Perhaps it would behoove us to read and think deeply about this before we go off half-cocked. But we Americans are trained from the beginning to believe we ‘know’ what is right, without any knowledge or understanding of the problem, and its history. It is called “Democracy,” and the elite have carefully developed this modified etoliated strain to nourish their needs, and theirs alone.
Chomsky, in “Necessary Illusions,” talks about ‘worthy and unworthy victims,’ citing media coverage of the victims from both sides of wars that the US supports. Malooga’s corollary to this phenomenom is ‘known and unknown wars.’
We must understand that the US/Global elite are at war with the entire non-elite global population. There was unanimity to the unknown war with Iraq, which consisted of sanctions which resulted in the deaths of half a million, or more, mostly children, while Americans slept peacefully, and ignorantly, in their beds; Madeline Albright famously declared these deaths “worth it.” The debate among the elite was whether to change tactics in Iraq from ‘unknown war’ to ‘known war.’ ‘Known war’ allowed for vastly increased military spending (Dionysian Military Keynesianism), vastly increased social control, and public support for further metastases throughout the resource rich region.
But we know nothing about “mad King Leopold’s legacy,” the war in Central Africa, which by some accounts has killed up to four million in the past decade alone. We must think deeply why this is. Only the ignorant, and liberals (which amount to much the same thing), will believe that the press, and Clinton, made “mistakes” and overlooked this war because it is “in a remote part of the globe where we don’t have any reporters.” Evelyn Waugh, author of the masterful “Scoop” almost 100 years ago, would have another best-seller from that line.
It is fairly typical of self-involved USA’ans that they should decide that this is their problem, this immigration thing, when it is nothing of the sort.
So, let’s name this ‘unknown war,’ of which the vast majority here are either ignorant of, in denial of, or like a bunch of quack surgeons, insist upon focusing upon a single lump, hoping naively to cure or ameliorate it, while the entire body is riddled with cancer. It is called the War Upon Indigenous People, and it is global in scale. We are being ‘adversely’ affected by the hemispheric manifestation, called the “War on Indians,” which has never stopped or abated since that fateful day in 1492 when Columbus landed on a small island, populated by peaceful Arawaks, in the Bahamas.
To quote from Žiga Vodovnik, in her introduction to “¡Ya Basta! Ten Years of the Zapatista Uprising”:

The Arawak Indians lived in village communes, developing an agriculture of corn, yams, cassava. They could spin and weave, but had no horses and work animals. They enjoyed a far more “civilized” life style than any society in Europe; the natives only worked the equivalent of a few days per week, pulling fish out of the sea, taking fruits from the trees; their children often accompanied them during their work; they dispayed no shame, waering little or no clothing; they had no guilt; making love openly; and they were so generous that anything Europeans showed interest in, was promptly given to them. You should expect Columbus to say,”We should send our best scholars here to study and learn from them.” Instead, Columbus wrote in his diary: “…They do not bear arms, and do not know them, for I showed them a sword and they took it by the edge and cut themselves out of ignorance. They would make fine servants… With fifty men we could subjugate them all and make them do whatever we want.”

As the West was settled by white men, displacing and slaughtering the native Indian tribes, deracinatied Indians often wandered into outposts like Denver to try to survive and make a life for themselves. The white settlers argued amongst themselves about the “Indian Problem.” The conservatives said, “They are savages, destructive, and we must keep them out.” The liberals said, “No they are innocents, and we can educate them to become Americans, like us.” Both conservatives and liberals were deeply complicit in the genocidal war crimes which killed another culture more successfully than the Nazis ever did. I ask you how, by intentionally limiting the frame of inquiry and debate, your self-serving arguments today are any different?
Study your history of immigration well, for I will not take the time to lecture you here. All great waves of immigration are caused by crushing social inequality, religious persecution, or outright genocide. People don’t just up and leave their homes and communities for fun and profit. The great Irish wave, which we were taught was caused by the “Potato Famine,” when the Irish were actually exporting all their food to England, and the Jewish influx during the pogroms of eastern Europe, are just two cases in point.
What do we want from penniless natives? What we have always wanted: Their land, their resources, and their servitude. We are at war with the 10 million Indigenous people of Mexico, and the 100 million more throughout Latin and South America: Chile, Ecuador, Venequela, Bolivia, El Salvador. This is the unknown war, whose depredations are left daily undocumented in the pages of New Pravda and The Washington Isvestia.
Again, Let me quote from Subcommandante Marcos in his “letter to the people of the U.S.: “

Fomenting racism, fear and insecurity, the great personalities of U.S. politics offer economic support to the Mexican government so that it controls by violent means the discontent against the economic situation. They offer to multiply the absurd walls with which they pretend to put a stop to the search for life which drives millions of Mexicans to cross the northern border.
The best wall against massive immigration to the U.S. is a free, just, and democratic regime in Mexico. If Mexicans could find in their own land what now is denied them, they would not be forced to look for work in other countries. By supporting the dictatorship of the state party system in Mexico, whatever the name of the man or the party, the North American people are supporting an uncertain and anguishing future. By supporting the people of Mexico in their aspirations for democracy, liberty and justice, the North American people honor their history…and their human condition…Today, in 1995, the U.S. government has begun to get involved in the Mexican government’s dirty war against the Zapatista population. War material support, military advisors, undercover actions, electronic espionage, financing, diplomaticc support, activities of the CIA. Little by little, the U.S. government is beginning to get involved in an unequal war condemned to failure for those who are carrying it on, the Mexican government.

This is not the place to detail the history of this war, in Mexico, and throughout Latin America. But it is the place to ask all the “doctors” out there who solemnly examine the single lump in the cancerous global body, and haughtily and sanctimoniously prescribe their naive little remedies, why they don’t know about this war, why it has never been legitimated and given a name by the press. We had a “War on Terror,” declared in headlines splashed angrily across the land, before 2,800 people were laid cold in their graves, but this war, which kills and displaces millions across Latin America, and devastates communities and ecologies, the people and the land, has no official name and no legitimation. Why we must ask ourselves? Why does the government do everything in its power to keep us historically ignorant and emotionally reactive?
Are we, as Churchill notoriously formulated, “little Eichmanns,” mere functionaries in the vast machinery of empire, or are we in deep denial, assuaging our liberal consciences until, as I have quoted from Yeats, “The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;”

Marcos tells us that there is a puzzle which, no matter how hard we try, cannot be put back together. Like Humpty Dumpty, and our famous Zen Cat we must ask ourselves how the cat ever came to be cut, how the egg toppled and cracked, and how the puzzle was disassembled, and pieces changed, before our very eyes.
The “increases in productivity” wraught by capitalism leave daily in it’s wake the deracinated, the unemployed, the starving “lucky duckies,” the marginalized, the sick, the downsized, the outsourced, the women, the children, the elderly, the forgotten, the evicted, the “criminals”, the “islamo-fascists,” and soon all who do not live behind the reassuring protective gates and walls of our metaphorical ignorance and our physical borders and communities.
The elite prescription of ever more out of control runaway Kesnisian militarism is killing us, our victims, and the planet.
We must study the puzzle carefully and see if there is not another solution.
We must think deeply about this question, for there is little margin of error if we come up with the wrong answer. Lives are at stake, and we are only yet dimly aware that they may be our own.

Posted by: Malooga | Mar 27 2006 16:26 utc | 47

interesting comments Pepe,
what I see in your words is what I imagine Germany was like in the early 1930s.
We would have a Hitler type ready to take advantage of this turmoil in the body of Pat Buchanan. Fortunately Pat has zero charisma.
Heaven help us if we do get someone as likeable as Bill Clinton with the sadistic mindset of a Richard Perle or Dick Cheney. They would go far.

Posted by: dan of steele | Mar 27 2006 16:32 utc | 48

Addenda:
When 1% of a population is forced annually to risk their lives in crossing the border illegally, in order to survive, what can it legitimately be called, but slow genocide. The USA’an Indian wars lasted over 400 years before the whitemen triumphantly declared victory in the 1890’s. These men are masters of the slow death. It has been employed in Australia and New Zealand. They have exported it to Palestine, and now the Middle East. Why should we not be surprised that they have only expanded its reach in “our” hemisphere?

Posted by: Malooga | Mar 27 2006 16:49 utc | 49

What a post Malloga!

Posted by: beq | Mar 27 2006 17:47 utc | 50

funny, all this talk of “immigrants” by peoples who have settled on the land of others. 🙂
there are native nations that have been bisected by these demarcations imposed by the settlers, relatives finding themselves on both sides of these borders & unable to freely move across these abstractions to commune w/ family.
divide & conquer indeed
the wild west saga lives on & frontier mythos is alive & well in the racism of the minutemen. unfortunately for those holding down the garrisons, the way this historical episode is playing out will not go the way of tecumseh, pontiac & osceola. consider the million or more warriors in the streets of los angeles another warning shot.

Posted by: b real | Mar 27 2006 17:47 utc | 51

The Anti-Immigration debate is raging hard these days. Some would like to create a Guest Worker Program, others would like to maintain the Status Quo and yet others would like to banish all Illegal Immigrants. So, here is an interesting question…. what would happen if Illegal Immigrants could be magically removed from the U.S.?
Even by the most conservative estimates, we can assume that the average Illegal spends at least $500 a month. Overnight, the U.S. Economy would shrink by $72 Billion a Year (12MM People * $500 a Month * 12 Months per Year) … a sizeable amount of money.
Now, you may be aware of the Economic Multiplier. Those that aren’t, the Economic Multiplier is the idea of that every new dollar in the economy leads to many more…. and likewise taking a dollar out of the economy…. leads to many less dollars. For example, an Illegal Immigrant stops paying Rent… if the Landlord can’t fill it…then he/she will have less money to spend or invest… then the Vendors that depended on the Landlord’s money would likewise be affect…etc.,
Even by conservative estimates…the U.S. Multiplier is about 7…. so the $72 Billion per Year would eventually become $504 Billion about 3.8% of the total U.S. Economy. This alone would represent a far worse Recession than Post 9/11 or even Pre-Gulf War.
To this we add the Inflationary impact of the loss of cheap labor. In places like California where there is about 4 Million Illegal Immigrants…. the impact on Cost of Living there would be significant. The cost of Goods and Services typically rendered by Illegal Immigrants (Harvest, Food Prep, Retail, Housekeeping, Janitorial, Landscaping & Manufacturing) would probably increase by 25% (assume Cost of Goods / Services approximately 50% of Sales…and Wages would double to meet demand). Overall, it would probably increase inflation in California by at least a few percentage points. This inflation would of course be exported to other states in the country.
Next, there is also the impact on Mexico. Mexico currently gets a boost of $10 to $25 Billion per Year from transfers by Illegal Immigrants…. greater than all Sources of Foreign Investment Combined and assuming a Multiplier of 10…. that is an impact of $100 to $250 Billion on the Mexican Economy…or 10 to 25% of Total GDP. Mexico would go into a Depression outright. Given that Mexico is one of the U.S. biggest Trading Partners…. and one of the few Big Partners that the U.S. has actually had a positive Trade Balance with… it would be disastrous on the U.S:
> U.S. Companies would lose anywhere from $20 to $50 Billion in Export Revenues. If we include the multiplier effect…we are talking $140 to $350 Billion effect on the economy or 1 to 2.7% of GDP
> The U.S. would lose a key source of Currency & Interest Rate strength…the Dollar would devaluate relative to the Euro and Yen, forcing interest rates higher… and forcing greater borrowing from China and other countries (because of the increased Trade & Current Account deficits).
So far… we have:
> Immediate GDP Contraction almost 4%
> Inflationary Impact of a couple %
> Additional GDP Contraction due to lost Export to Mexico of 1 to 2.7%
> Undetermined increase of Interest Rates (increased Trade & Current Account deficits)
It is not hard to project what this scenario would mean…. Stagflation or Depression.

Posted by: Pepe | Mar 27 2006 17:48 utc | 52

@Malooga – thanks – a great argument and I do agree to it 100%.
Unfortunatly, it doesn´t win elections.

Posted by: b | Mar 27 2006 18:15 utc | 53

That’s why elections are irrelevant to positive change. Education, organizing, and activism are. That puts pressure on the elected officials. We won’t see the end of worldwide killing until enough impovershed Americans identify with their already impovershed bretheren more strongly than they identify with their cowboy leaders.

Posted by: Malooga | Mar 27 2006 18:20 utc | 54

Great thoughts malooga, Pepe
I’m still very sick, in between going to the can and being glued to the bed I wanted to at least check in.
What the multinational corporations are trying to do, literally, (WTO, GATS mode 4 proposals) is make workers “commodities to be traded”. So in other words, people will be classified as “services to be traded” across borders. That will be the final blow to labor for then no nation-state will be able to control it’s population (all immigration policies will be ruled illegal by the WTO as a barrier to trade), control it’s workers rights and protections (the immigration status is now controlled by the employer) and we have basically a slave economy.
Offshoring Report SUPRESSED

In November 2003, Congress directed the US Department of Commerce to complete a study on offshoring for delivery in June 2004. The 200 page study was completed by Commerce Department analysts but was never released. Instead, after more than a year of wrangling, a 12 page document, written by political appointees, was released in September 2005. The 12 page document only highlights the positives of offshoring. The original study has never been released even though it cost taxpayers $335,000. Congress cannot obtain a copy of the study from Commerce.

Here’s some US companies that are
outsourcing jobs.
A
3Com, 3M, A. Schulman, Inc., Aalfs Manufacturing, Aavid Thermal Technologies, Abbott
Laboratories, ABC-NACO, Accenture , Access Electronics, Accuride Corporation, Accuride
International, Acme Packaging, Adaptec, ADC, Admanco, Adobe Air, Adobe Systems, Admanco,
Advanced Energy Industries, Aei Acquisitions, Aetna, Affiliated Computer Services, AFS
Technologies, A.G. Edwards, Agere Systems, Agilent Technologies, A.H. Schreiber Co., AIG,
Air Products & ChemicalsÊ, Alamo Rent A Car, Albany International Corp., Albertson’s, Alcoa,
Alcoa Fujikura, Allen-Edmonds Shoe Corporation, Allen Systems Group, Allflex USA, Alliance
Fiber Optic Products, Inc., Alliance Semiconductor, Allstate, Alpha Thought Global, Altek, Altria
Group, Amazon.com, Ames True Temper, AMD, Americ Disc, American Dawn, American
Express, American Fashion, American Greetings, American Household, American Management
Systems, American Standard, American Tool, American Uniform Company, Applied Micro
Circuits Corp., Amerigon Incorporated, AMETEK, AMI DODUCO, Amloid Corporation,
Amphenol Corporation, Analog Devices, Anchor Glass Container, Anchor Hocking, ANDA
Networks, Anderson Electrical Products, Andrew Corporation, Angelica Corporation,
Anheuser-Busch, Ansell Health Care, Ansell Protective Products, Anvil Knitwear, AOL, A.O.
Smith, Apex Systems, Apparel Ventures, Inc., Apple, Applied Materials, Applied Micro Circuits
Corp., Arimon Technologies, Inc. , Arkansas General Industries, Ark-Les Corporation, Arlee
Home Fashions, Artex International, Art Leather Manufacturing, ArvinMeritor, Asbury Carbons,
Asco Power Technologies, Ashland, AstenJohnson, Asyst Technologies, AT&T, AT&T Wireless,
Atchison Products, Inc., A.T. Cross, A.T. Kearney, ATMI-Ecosys Corporation, Augusta
Sportswear, Aurafin-OroAmerica, Authentic Fitness Corporation, Automatic Data Processing,
Avanade, Avanex, Avaya, Avery Dennison, Axiohm Transaction Solutions, AXT, Inc. and Azima
Healthcare Services
B
B.A.G. Corporation, Bakka, Ball Corporation, Bank of America, Bank of New York, Bank One,
Bard Access Systems, Barnes Group, Barth & Dreyfuss of California, Bassett Furniture, Bassler
Electric Company, Bausch & Lomb, BBi Enterprises L.P., Beacon Blankets, BearingPoint, Bear
Stearns, BEA Systems, Bechtel, Becton Dickinson, BellSouth, Bemis Manufacturing Co., Bentley
Systems, Berdon LLP, Berne Apparel, Bernhardt Furniture, Besler Electric Company, Best Buy,
Bestt Liebco Corporation, Beverly Enterprises, Bijur Lubricating Corp., Birdair, Inc., BISSELL,
Black & Decker, Black Diamond Equipment, Blauer Manufacturing, Blue Cast Denim, Blyth,
Inc., BMC Software, Bobs Candies, Boeing, Borden Chemical, Bose Corporation, Bourns,
Bowater, Braden Manufacturing, Brady Corporation, Briggs Industries, Brinker International,
Bristol-Myers Squibb, Bristol Tank & Welding Co., Brocade, Brooks Automation, Brown,
Wooten Mills Inc., Buck Forkardt, Inc., Bumble Bee, Burle Industries, Burlington House Home
Fashions, Burlington Northern and Santa Fe Railway
C
C&D Technologies, Cadence Design Systems, Cains Pickles, California Cedar Products
Company, Camfil Farr, Candle Corporation, Capital Mercury Apparel, Capital One, Cardinal
Brands, Cardinal Industries, Carrier, Carris Financial Corp., Carter’s, Caterpillar, C-COR.net,
Cellpoint Systems, Cendant, Centis, Inc., Centurion Wireless, Technologies, Cerner Corporation,
Charles Schwab, The Cherry Corporation, ChevronTexaco, CIBER, Ciena, Cigna, Circuit City,
Cirrus Logic, Cisco Systems, Citigroup, Clear Pine Mouldings, Clorox, CNA, Coastcast Corp.,
Coca-Cola, Cognizant Technology Solutions, Coherent, Inc., Collins & Aikman, Collis, Inc.,
Columbia House, Columbia Showcase & Cabinet Company, Columbus McKinnon, Comcast
Holdings, Comdial Corporation, CompuServe, Computer Associates, Computer Horizons,
Computer Sciences Corporation, Concise Fabricators, Conectl Corporation, Conseco,
Consolidated Metro, Consolidated Ventura, Continental Airlines, Convergys, Cooper-Atkins
Corporation, Cooper Crouse-Hinds, Cooper Industries, Cooper Power Systems, Cooper Tire &
Rubber, Cooper Tools, Cooper Wiring Devices, Copperweld, Cordis Corporation, Corning,
Corning Cable Systems, Corning Frequency Control, Countrywide Financial, COVAD,
Communications, Cvansys, Cray, Inc., Creo Americas, Crompton Corporation, Cross Creek
Apparel, Crouzet Corporation, Crown Holdings, CSX, Cummins, Curtis Instruments,
Cutler-Hammer, Cypress Semiconductor
D
Dana Corporation, Daniel Woodhead, Dan Post Boot Company, Dan River, Data-Ray
Corporation, Datex-Ohmeda, Davis Wire Corp., Daws Manufacturing, Dayton Superior,Dearborn
Brass, DeCrane Aircraft, Delco Remy, Dell Computer, Del Monte Foods, DeLong Sportswear,
Delphi, Delta Air Lines, Delta Apparel, Direct TV, Discover, DJ Orthopedics, Document
Sciences Corporation, Dometic Corp., Donaldson Company, Dorr-Oliver Eimco USA, Inc.,
Douglas Furniture of California, Dow Chemical, Dresser, Dun & Bradstreet, DuPont, DuPont
Beaumont Works
E
Earthlink, Eastman Kodak, Eaton Corporation, Edco, Inc., Editorial America, Edscha, eFunds,
e-Gain Communications Corp., Egs Electrical Group, Ehlert Tool Company, Elbeco Inc.,
Electroglas, Electronic Data Systems, Electronics for Imaging, Electro Technology, Eli Lilly,
Elkins Hardwood Dimension, Elmer’s Products, E-Loan, EMC, Emerson Electric,
Emerson Power Transmission, Emglo Products, Endwave Corporation, Engel Machinery, En
Pointe Technologies, Equifax, Ernst & Young, Essilor of America, Ethan Allen, Ethicon, Evenflo,
Evergreen Wholesale Florist, Evolving Systems, Evy of California, Exabyte Corporation,
Exfo Gnubi Products Group, Expedia, Extrasport, ExxonMobil
F
Fairfield Manufacturing, Fair Isaac, Fansteel Inc., Farley’s & Sathers Candy Co., Fasco Industries,
Fawn Industries, Fayette Cotton Mill, FCI USA, Fedders Corporation, Federal Mogul, Federated
Department Stores, Fellowes, Fender Musical Instruments, Fidelity Investments, Financial
Techologies International, Findlay IndustriesFinotex, First American Title Insurance, First Data,
First Index, Fisher Controls, Fisher Hamilton, Fisher-Rosemount Systems, Flowserve,
Fluidmaster, Fluor, FMC Corporation, Fontaine International, Ford Motor, Foster Wheeler,
Franklin Mint, Franklin Templeton, Freeborders, Friedrich Air Conditioning Co., Frito Lay,
Friwo-Emc, Fruit of the Loom
G
Garan Manufacturing, Gateway, GE Capital, GE Medical Systems, G.E. Packaged Power,
Gemtron Corporation, General Binding Corporation, General Cable Corp., General Electric,
General Mills, General Motors, Generation 2 Worldwide, Genesco, Georgia-Pacific, Gerber
Childrenswear, Gillette, Glacier West Sportswear, Global Power Equipment Grp.,
GlobespanVirata, Golden Northwest Aluminum, Goldman Sachs, Gold Toe Brands, Goodrich,
Goodyear Tire & Rubber, Google, Goss Graphic Systems, Graphic Controls, Graphite Design
International, Green Bay Packaging, Greenpoint Mortgage, Greenwood Mills, Grote Industries,
Grove U.S. LLC, Guardian Life Insurance, Guilford Mills, Gulfstream Aerospace Corp.
H
Haggar, Halliburton, Hamilton Beach/Procter-Silex, Hamilton Sundstrand, Harman International
Industries, Harper-Wyman Company, The Hartford Financial Services Group, Hasbro
Manufacturing Services, Hawk Corporation, Hawker Power Systems, Inc., Haworth, Headstrong,
HealthAxis, Hedstrom, Hein-Werner Corp., Helen of Troy, Helsapenn Inc., Hershey, Hewitt
Associates, Hewlett-Packard, Hoffman Enclosures, Inc., Hoffman/New Yorker, The Holmes
Group, Home Depot, The HON Company, Honeywell, Hooker Furniture Corporation, HSN,
Hubbell Inc., Hudson Rci, Humana, Hunter Sadler, Hutchinson Sealing Systems, Inc, HyperTech
Solutions
I
IBM, iGate Corporation, Illinois Tool Works, IMI Cornelius, Imi Norgren, Imperial Home Decor
Group, Inamed Corporation, Indiana Knitwear Corp., IndyMac Bancorp, Inflation Systems,
Infogain, Ingersoll-Rand, Innodata Isogen, Innova Solutions, Insilco Technologies, Intalco
Aluminum Corp., Intel, InterMetro Industries, International Garment Processors, International
Paper, International Steel Wool Corp., Interroll Corporation, Intesys Technologies, Intuit,
Invacare, Iris Graphics, Inc., Isola Laminate Systems, Iteris Holdings, Inc., Itronix Corporation,
ITT Educational Services, ITT Industries
J
Jabil Circuit, Jacobs Engineering, Jacuzzi, Jakel, Inc., JanSport, Jantzen Inc., JDS Uniphase,
Jockey International, John Crane, John Deere, Johns Manville, Johnson & Johnson, Johnson
Controls, JPMorgan Chase, J.R. Simplot, Juniper Networks, Justin Brands
K
K2 Inc., K&S Interconnect, KANA Software, Kaiser Permanente, Kanbay, Kayby Mills of North
Carolina, Keane, Kellogg, Kellwood, Kelly-Springfield Tire Co., KEMET, KEMET Electronics,
Kendall Healthcare, Kendro Laboratory Products, Kenexa, Kentucky Apparel, Kerr-McGee
Chemical, KeyCorp, Key Industries, Key Safety Systems, Key Tronic Corp., Kimberly-Clark,
KLA-Tencor, Knight Textile Corp., Kojo Worldwide Corporation, Kraft Foods, Kulicke and
Soffa Industries, Kwikset
L
LaCrosse Footwear, L.A. Darling Company, Lake Village Industries, Lamb Technicon, Lancer
Partnership, Lander Company, Lands’ End, Lau Industries, Lawson Software, Layne Christensen,
La-Z-Boy, Leach International, Lear Corporation, Leech Tool & Die Works, Legendary
Holdings, Inc., Lehman Brothers, Leoni Wiring Systems, Levi Strauss, Leviton Manufacturing
Co., Lexmark International, Lexstar Technologies, Liebert Corporation, Lifescan, Lillian Vernon,
Linksys, Linq Industrial Fabrics, Inc., Lionbridge Technologies, Lionel, Littelfuse, LiveBridge,
LNP Engineering Plastics, Lockheed Martin, Longaberger, LOUD Technologies,
Louisiana-Pacific Corporation, Louisville Ladder Group LLC, Lowe’s, Lucent, Ludlow Building
Products, Lund International, Lyall Alabama
M
Madill Corporation, Magma Design Automation, Magnequench, Magnetek, Maida Development
Co., Maidenform, Mallinckrodt, Inc. , The Manitowoc Company, Manugistics, Marathon Oil ,
Marge Carson, Inc., Marine Accessories Corp., Maritz, Marko Products, Inc., Mars, Inc.,
Marshall Fields, Master Lock, Masterwork Electronics, Materials Processing, Inc., Mattell,
Maxim Integrated Products, Maxi Switch, Maxtor Corporation, Maxxim Medical, Maytag,
McDATA Corporation, McKinsey & Company, MeadWestvaco, Measurement Specialties, Inc.,
Mediacopy, Medtronic, Mellon Bank, Mentor Graphics Corp., Meridian Automotive Systems,
Merit Abrasive Products, Merrill Corporation, Merrill Lynch, Metasolv, MetLife, Michigan
Magnetics, Micro Motion, Inc., Micron Technology, Microsoft, Midcom Inc., Midwest Electric
Products, Milacron, MKS Instruments, Modern Plastics Technics, Modine Manufacturing, Moen,
Money’s Foods Us Inc., Monona Wire Corp., Monsanto, Moog, Inc, Morgan Stanley, Motion
Control Industries, Motor Coach Industries International, Motorola, Mrs. Allison’s Cookie Co.,
MTD Southwest, MTI Technology Corporation, Mulox, Munro & Company, My Room, Inc.,
N
Nabco, Nabisco, NACCO Industries, National City Corporation, National Electric Carbon
Products, National Life, National Semiconductor, National Textiles, NCR Corporation, neoIT,
NETGEAR, Network Associates, Newbold Corporation, Newell Porcelain Co., Newell
Rubbermaid, Newell Window Furnishings, New World Pasta, New York Life Insurance, Nice
Ball Bearings, Nike, Noble Construction Equipment, Nordstrom, Northrop Grumman, Northwest
Airlines, Nu Gro Technologies, Nu-kote International, NutraMax Products, Nypro Alabama,
O
O’Bryan Brothers Inc., Ocwen Financial, Office Depot, Ogden Manufacturing, Oglevee, Ltd,
Ohio Art, Ohmite Manufacturing Co., Old Forge Lamp & Shade, The Oligear Company, Olympic
West Sportswear, Omniglow Corporation, O’Neal Steel Inc., ON Semiconductor, Oplink
Communications, Inc, Oracle, Orbitz, OshKosh B’Gosh, O’Sullivan Industries, Otis Elevator,
Outsource Partners International, Owens-Brigam Medical Co., Owens Corning, Owens-Illinois,
Inc., Oxford Automotive, Oxford Industries
P
Pacific Precision Metals, Pak-Mor Manufacturing, Palco Labs, palmOne, Paper Converting
Machine Co., Parallax Power Components, Paramount Apparel, Parker Hannifin, Parks &
Wolson Machine Co., Parsons E&C, Pass & Seymour Legrand, Paxar Corporation, Pearson
Digital Learning, Peavey Electronics Corporation, Pendleton Woolen Mills, PeopleSoft, PepsiCo,
Pericom Semiconductor, PerkinElmer, PerkinElmer Life Sciences, Inc, Perot Systems, Pfaltzgraff,
Pfizer, Phillips-Van Heusen, Photronics, Pinnacle Frames, Pinnacle West Capital Corporation,
Pioneer Companies, Pitney Bowes, Plaid Clothing Company, Planar Systems, Plexus, Pliant
Corporation, PL Industries, Polaroid, Polymer Sealing Solutions, Portal Software, Portex, Inc.,
Portola Packaging, Port Townsend Paper Corp., Power-One Inc., Pradco, Pratt & Whitney,
priceline.com, Price Pfister, Pridecraft Enterprises, Primanex Corporation, Prime Tanning,
Primus Telecom, Procter & Gamble, Progress Lighting, ProQuest, Providian Financial, Prudential
Insurance
Q
Q.C. Onics Ventures, Quadion Corporation, Quaker Oats, Quantegy, Quark, Quickie
Manufacturing Corp., Qwest Communications
R
Radio Flyer, Radio Shack, Rainbow Technologies, Rawlings Sporting Goods, Rayovac, Raytheon
Aircraft, RBX Industries, RCG Information Technology, Red Kap, Regal-Beloit Corporation,
Regal Rugs, Regal Ware, Inc., Regence Group, Renfro Corp., Respiratory Support Products,
Rexnord Industries, R.G. Barry Corp, Richardson Brothers Co., Rich Products, River Holding
Corp., Robert Manufacturing, Robert Mitchell Co., Rochester Button Co., Rockshox, Rockwell
Automations, Rockwell Collins, Rogers, Rohm & Haas, Ropak Northwest, Roper Industries, Inc.,
Royce Hosiery, RR Donnelley & Sons, Rugged Sportswear, Russell Corporation
S
S1 Corporation, S & B Engineers and Constructors, Sabre, Safeway, SAIC, Sallie Mae,
Samsonite, Samuel-Whittar, Inc., SanDisk Corporation, Sanford, Sanmina-SCI, Sapient, Sara
Lee, Saturn Electronics & Engineering, Sauer-Danfoss, SBC Communications, Scantibodies
Laboratory, Schott Scientific Glass, Schumacher Electric, Scientific Atlanta, The Scott Fetzer
Company, Seal Glove Manufacturing, Seco Manufacturing Co., SEI Investments, SEMCO
(Southeastern Metals Manufacturing), Sequa Corporation, Seton Company, Sheldahl Inc.,
Shipping Systems, Inc., S.H. Leggitt Co., Shugart Corp., Siebel Systems, Sierra Atlantic, Sights
Denim Systems, Inc., Signage, Inc., Signal Transformer, Signet Armorlite, Inc., Sikorsky,
Silicon Graphics, Silvered Electronic Mica Company, Simmons Juvenile Products, Simonds
International, Simula Automotive Safety, SITEL, Skyworks Solutions, SMC Networks, SML
Labels, Snap-on, Inc., SNC Manufacturing Company, SoftBrands, Sola Optical USA, Solectron,
Solon Manufacturing Co., Sonoco Products Co., Southwire Company, Sovereign Bancorp,
Specialized Bicycle Components, Spectrum Control, Spicer Driveshaft Manufacturing, Spirit
Silkscreens, Springs Industries, Springs Window Fashions, Sprint, Sprint PCS, SPX Corporation,
Square D, SRAM Corporation, Standard Textile Co., Stanley Furniture, Stanley Works, Stant
Manufacturing, Starkist Seafood, State Farm Insurance, State Street, Steelcase, StorageTek,
Store Kraft Manufacturing, StrategicPoint Investment Advisors, Strattec Security Corp.,
Strombecker Corp., STS Apparel Corporation, Summitville Tiles, Sun Microsystems, Sunrise
Medical, Suntron, SunTrust Banks, Superior Uniform Group, Supra Telecom, Sure Fit, SurePrep,
The Sutherland Group, Swank, Inc., Sweetheart Cup Co., Swift Denim, Sykes Enterprises,
Symbol Technologies, Synopsys, Synygy
T
Takata Retraint Systems, Target, Teccor Electronics, Techalloy Company, Inc., Technotrim,
Tecumseh, Tee Jays Manufacturing, Telcordia, Telect, Teleflex, TeleTech, Telex
Communications, Tellabs, Tenneco Automotive, Teradyne, Texaco Exploration and Production,
Texas Instruments, Textron, Thermal Industries, Therm-O-Disc, Inc., Thermo Electron, Thomas
& Betts, Thomas Saginaw Ball Screw Co., Thomasville Furniture, Three G’s Manufacturing Co.,
Thrivent Financial for Lutherans, Tiffany Industries, Time Warner, The Timken Company,
Tingley Rubber Corp., TMD Friction, Tomlinson Industries, The Toro Company,
Torque-Traction Mfg. Tech., Tower Automotive, Toys “R” Us, Trailmobile Trailer,
Trans-Apparel Group, TransPro, Inc., Trans Union, Travelocity, Trek Bicycle Corporation, Trend
Technologies, TriMas Corp., Trinity Industries, Triquint Semiconductor, TriVision Partners,
Tropical Sportswear, Trumark Industries, TRW Automotive, Tumbleweed Communications,
Tupperware, Tyco Electronics, Tyco International, Tyler Refrigeration
U
UCAR Carbon Company, Underwriters Laboratories, UniFirst Corporation, Union Pacific
Railroad, Unison Industries, Unisys, United Airlines, UnitedHealth Group Inc., United Online,
United Plastics Group, United States Ceramic Tile, United Technologies, Universal Lighting
Technologies, USAA
V
Valence Technology, Valeo Climate Control, Valeo Switches & Detection Systems, VA
Software, Vaughan Furniture Co., Velvac, Veritas, Verizon, Vertiflex Products, Vestshell
Vermont, Inc., VF Corporation, Viasystems, Vilter Manufacturing Corp., Virginia Industries,
Virginia KMP Corporation, Vishay Intertechnology, Vishay Vitramon, Visteon, VITAL Sourcing
W
Wabash Alloys, L.L.C., Wabash Technologies, Wachovia Bank, Walgreens, Walls Industries,
Warnaco, Washington Group International, Washington Mutual, Waterbury Companies, Waterloo
Industries, Weavexx, Webb Furniture Enterprises, WebEx, Weiser Lock, WellChoice, Wellman
Thermal Systems, Werner Co., West Corporation, West Point Stevens, Wetherill AssociatesÊÊÊ,
Weyco Group, Weyerhaeuser, Whirlpool, White Rodgers, Williamson-Dickie Manufacturing
Company, Winpak Films, Wolverine World Wide, Woodstock Wire Works, Woodstuff
Manufacturing, WorldCom, World Kitchen, Worldtex, Wright Products, Wyeth, Wyman-Gordon
Forgings
X
Xerox, Xpectra Incorporated, Xpitax
Y
Yahoo!, Yarway Corporation, York International
Z
Zenith, ZettaWorks Zimmerman Sign Company
Amazing, isn’t it? Each job that is outsourced harms America in so many different ways. Wages, benefits, federal taxes, state taxes, city income taxes, payroll taxes, etc.
When will corporate America and Congress realize the harm of such stupidity?

Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 27 2006 18:32 utc | 55

me above…I’m going away now.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Mar 27 2006 18:33 utc | 56

malooga and pepe, thanks for expressing it much better than my personal ramblings. yes, the stakes are enormous.
malooga, i wonder just how degraded quality of life will be before the epiphany. and if we have enough time and natural resources remaining before it does. will people get their shit together before we’ve destroyed our environment and depleted the world’s resources? my sister just told me she is pregnant. i am happy for her, but wonder why anyone would want to bring a child into this world to inherit the mess we have created. then she tells me her 3 bedroom house is not large enough for a family. she just doesn’t get it and she is not alone. people with money are too well insulated unless they take the time to educate themselves and care enough to make a difference. i love your concept that education, organizing, and activism are enough. i live it on a daily basis, but i don’t know if most people are reachable or will care enough until it hurts and then will it be too late?

Posted by: conchita | Mar 27 2006 18:34 utc | 57

Malooga,
though I agree with what you write about immigration and genocide, you remind me of a qoute from Douglas Adams: Just because you got a mind like a hammer does not mean you have to treat everyone else like nails
Back to the content. In the desperation that fuels migration we can also see why amnesties probably does not effect migration much, you are not so much fleeing to somewhere as away from somewhere (or some situation). On the other hand, legalizing the status of immigrants works wonders in improving their relative power versus an employer.

Posted by: a swedish kind of death | Mar 27 2006 18:35 utc | 58

I found the following quite serindipitous in light of malooga’s recent prose..
“Sometimes I equate it to the elephants.”

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Mar 27 2006 19:06 utc | 59

The ‘economic’ troubles of the US are finally waking the anti – immigration (and sometimes racist) beast, putting paid to melting-pot myths.
Rumblings have been loud but not prominent in the press except for isolated examples. The WALL (US – Mexico) though is being built. It looks like part of Palestine.
The issues are very complex, see all the arguments above.
It cuts to a stark problem of US society – the need for cheap, submissive, badly qualified, no-rights, expendable labor, so that ‘capitalism’ and ‘entrepreneuship’ can flourish, opposed by some of the original ‘white’ settlers who now can no longer compete in a globalised world.
The industrial jobs that paid good money and guaranteed the son did better than the father have gone.
The very idea of a perpetual rise in standard of living -from a new Frigidaire and a Packard to a Mac Mansion and 1000 digital TV chains plus a hybrid car or two snugly tucked into a lit garage and a heated swimming pool – is dead in the water.
Some can still achieve it. But as a model for society – no.
People realise that. They see the failing health care, the downgrading of salaries, the unemployment, the need to buy a car with no money, the need to f** the boss to keep the low paying job, just the tips, why not.
The US Gvmt. has actually done a tremendous amount to guarantee the ‘living’ (old English term) of its lower graded citizens. They get cheap gas, practically free water, agricultural subsidies to the skies, health care that is shoddy but still existent (Medicare is single payer, etc.), free – if very poor – schooling, and they are flattered to vote, they are real people who count, the system says.
In return, they send the sons and daughters to fight, and die. Don’t forget the coffins draped with the flag.
The jobs that illegal or regular immigrants occupy are jobs that American citizens often don’t want. (Pay, hours, security, benefits.)
They regret the days when they themselves could hire or control that cheap labor. To do that today, you have to be top of the heap. It is out of their reach, so the cheap labor has to go, never mind the results. (For some.)
— It is all a grand distraction away from reality – the new gay marriage as Pepe said. ( I still have to digest Mallooga’s long post above.) —
Why all this?
Because resources are dwindling (oil, gas, fish, sugar, beets…), populations is growing, the obvious ideas or scams have been implemented already, extractive capitalism is becoming impossible.
Guns and authoritariasm must take their place, creating a new (in the West) class of loosers, those useless eaters, itinerant workers, crazies, prisoners, etc.

Posted by: Noisette | Mar 27 2006 19:11 utc | 60

Malooga,
your point is well taken in that this is another cynical game being played on us where the outcome is well known in advance that we will lose. you are very capable of making me feel guilty for not being as aware as you are of how things really work. I have come to believe I can see an outline of the monster but still don’t understand all the inner workings.
In order to resist the elites we have to overcome many obstacles… they have the police, the press, the schools, and of course the money and power. what is a poor dumb slave to do? even if a genuinely good person should be able to wrest some of this power away from the elites for the betterment of his fellow slaves he too will soon be corrupted because the elites know a lot of tricks and have been playing for a long time. it seems all so hopeless.
violent revolutions seem attractive at times but the end result is a lot of dead poor people and nothing really changes. I am not all that well versed on Indian history but it seems that passive resistance is the only way to go. Is that what you teach when you are organizing resistance?
I suffer from a disease that women accuse men of having all the time, I want to fix things. problem is I really don’t know where to start and fear that most things I could do would only make it worse.
jdp suggests using the little bit of money we have to influence business and this does sound like a good idea. but who would do the recommending of where to invest? this too could very quickly turn into a scam of monumental proportions like the great pyramid scheme in Albania some years ago.
education and awareness are key, but not everyone desires to know how things work..they don’t want to be bothered. what to do about them? pull them along at our own expense and then listen to the whining when they think they didn’t get enough? just leave them to their own devices and grab enough for our own families? Sure, I want to be a nice guy but I gotta look out for myself first. I insist on that and do not want someone else making those kind of decisions for me.
sorry for the rambling. I am still trying to work it out.

Posted by: dan of steele | Mar 27 2006 19:22 utc | 61

Unfortunately, Communism doesn’t work either. Even when you send all the ‘elites’ off to ‘Siberia’ or kill them. Sharing does not seem to be a ‘natural’ law. However most of us were a lot better off before Reagan started the trend towards lawlessness, ie; deregulation of business. We have to have laws and they need to be enforced. We are in deep shit to-day because of unregulated, *organized* greed.

Posted by: pb | Mar 27 2006 20:01 utc | 62

dos – for some thoughts about socially responsible investing and how that can influence corporations, check out amy domini on bigpicturetv. there are others, but she is a good beginning.

Posted by: conchita | Mar 27 2006 20:06 utc | 63

Okay, youse guys have convinced me. Let’s build the 13-foot razor wire-topped fence across the Mexican border. Let’s beef up funding for the Border patrol and Immigration services so that they can actually control and regulate the flow of immigrants from Mexico.
Let’s set a contingent for the number we let in, register them and let them be subject to the same rules of employment as US citizens. Let’s ask them to contribute to Social Security.
…or should I just roll over and keep dreaming?

Posted by: ralphieboy | Mar 27 2006 20:16 utc | 64

They do contribute to social security yet never see it. Many use S.S to work and contribute to it but it is not their own so they never use it. There are many positive aspects to this “illegal immigration” as well as negative. I do not think that making it a crime will solve the problem. If this does go through more problems will arise and it will take us back to issues that we had time ago with diffrent ethnic groups. For many “illegal immigrations” the USA has become what they call home. THeir children were raised here and they work hard for every dime they make. Fearing at all times, never speaking out simply taking the lower wages and the bad treatment. I think we all need to really reflect upon this and put ourselves in their shoes. They do not come into the USA to ask for a “free sandwich” or ask for any benefits. They slave away to make a better life for their children.
I really enjoyed reading the comments on this topic. Very interesting to read everyones concerns.
and here are mine…. =)

Posted by: grace | Mar 27 2006 21:17 utc | 65

@Ralphie Lad:
That wasn’t all that hard, now was it?

Posted by: Groucho | Mar 27 2006 21:57 utc | 66

@Grace:
Much of the employment of illegals occurs in the underground economy.
No one there pays any kind of taxes at all, including employers.

Posted by: Groucho | Mar 27 2006 22:00 utc | 67

@pepe:
“Mexico currently gets a boost of $10 to $25 Billion per Year from transfers by Illegal Immigrants.”
How true. As countries are hollowed out they exist only through remittances and narco-trafficing. Which gives the US even more leverage over their policies.
@Uncle $cam:
I thought I had found one you missed, but no, you had it.
@skod: Unskyld. I’m sorry. I know I was a bit rough. I was just trying to make the point that we need historical understanding and knowledge of how the empire works before we can offer solutions. And our solutions have to be grounded in that knowledge to have a long term positive effect. So, while your suggestion, and ralphieboy’s conclusion might be good, they should be seen as short term band-aids in nature. Will we have another round, and another, and another, endlessly?
I do think my corollary of known and unknown wars, or, shall we say, recognized and unrecognized conflicts, is an important addition to understanding the workings of power.
@pb:
I would argue that sharing was the natural model, by which mankind evolved without going extinct. Indigenous cultures have always worked collectively. It has to be driven out of us forcibly by way of the propaganda stream, cultural hegemony, engineered shortages, manufactured fears and desires, unfair and repressive laws, divide and conquer strategies, appeals to false tribes, etc. Having spent some time away from the world in a monastic setting, without media, I can attest to just how quickly the conditioning falls away.
@dan of steele, conchita, Noisette, et al:
Actually your rambling is very good. That is the dialogue we all hear in our heads, everyday. There are no easy answers. Clearly, we could never be able to outgun the empire, so that kind of violence is out. It also does not feel morally right to me. But that doesn’t mean we can’t defend ourselves, and it certainly doesn’t mean that we can’t get very confrontational. There is nothing wrong to appealing to others guilt, shame, sense of justice, or any other emotion, positive or negative.
Clearly, the human race is self-destructing before our eyes. I don’t know how degraded the quality of life will become, and I don’t know if we will be able to save ourselves, or at least a significant percentage of ourselves, beside the pathological elite. I think the fact that we are reaching limits to growth, pollution, radiation etc. makes this more than a case of past “just fighting injustice.”
I, too, have a brother who wants a child. I too, conchita, wonder why anyone would want to bring a child into this world to inherit the mess we have created at this time. When I was younger, I never wanted children. But even guys face a biological imperative, and I have had to face it. One hundred years ago, I would have had children with joy. Now, I am forced to grow, and find other ways to find meaning in life, besides self-perpetuation.
I don’t know that education, organizing, and activism are enough. But I do know that it needs doing and is its own reward. I can’t think of anything more worth spending one’s time and energy on these days.
Yes, we must take care of ourselves in this society. But how we define that is up to us. Bill Gates might think he is about another 100 Billion away from true financial security. Those I know who have spent their entire lives chasing lucre, die sad and unfulfilled deaths.
The moment we are born, we are destined to die. So hopelessness and its opposite, meaning, are things we must discover for ourselves. Surely, even the poorest and sadest among us often find periods of great joy: family, food, love; all that is still possible.
I believe in finding meaning within ourselves through mystical experience. And I believe that mankind has always found meaning without through perpetuation of the family, and larger tribe or group. I think that meaning can still be found without reproducing.
This past century, a new goal has been added: The betterment of mankind through science and growth. This is an interesting, complex, and extraordinarily self-contradictory myth, due its own full analysis at another point. Suffice it too say that, while I am not a complete primitivist, I do not believe the myth of growth and betterment. I have seen every Mengelean atrocity use this myth for justification. Furthermore, problems with pollution and overdevelopment are creating a vicious cycle of ever more expensive and intrusive interventions without end.
We cannot expect to entirely change the system. However, with time, all things change naturally. We can hope to be part of making that change for the better.
Yes, most people are not interested in hearing all this. I too have squandered vast stretches of my life. But the current crumbling system leaves many openings for us to reach others: When they have to care for a parent, when they are sick, when they lose a job, or a career, when they lose their retirement, when the officially sanctioned narratives fall apart (9-11, fair elections, etc.). There are more and more possibilities for positive change as more of us get screwed. They have the power. We have the numbers. As our numbers become empowered, we prevail.
You are right that “The American Dream” as a model for collective, or societal development is inoperative. It does not work. We don’t have the resources, or the space, on this planet. We need new models. There is much exciting work to be done.
Havana meeting almost all of its food needs is a very promising model. Besides all that great organic food, people enjoy gardening and feel more connected with their life and community.
I personally don’t believe much in “Socially Responsible Investing,” and see it as not much more than “greenwashing.” The whole model of raping communities of their resources and land, and then “re-investing” is suspect. This is not a blanket condemnation, but even the fundamentalist right uses the term to meet its racist agenda. The concept of micro-investing is solid. But we need to work to minimize the importance of using wealth to generate investment returns as a crucial way of supporting ourselves. It represents another “race to the bottom,” this time in the name of “enlightened self-interest.” Additionally, it pits investor class against worker class, a prime source of economic inequality.
I believe the biggest challenge facing us economically is not sustainable growth, but steady sustainable shrinkage. All of our economic and business models are based upon limitless growth, which is clearly absurd. How anyone could win a Nobel prize for a development based upon a premise so obviously false that a four year old could refute it, is beyond me. I always figured that when I grew up, I would understand, but, not surprisingly, I find that I don’t. I do like the work that Catherine Austin Fitts is doing with her Solari approach to reinvesting locally, providing jobs, revitalized neighborhoods and increased property values. You can hear some of her talks by searching at Radio4all.net.

Posted by: Malooga | Mar 27 2006 22:08 utc | 68

Arguing whether illegal immigrants contribute to society is another elite argument that seeks to turn reason on its head , like when JFK intoned “And so, my fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country.”
To which I reply, “Why?”
Government was set up to take care of its citizens, not the other way around. In a world where killing others on the far side of the world for reasons you don’t understand is called public service; In a world where making great money and the best benefits in the country shilling for corporations as a congresscritter or snotator is called public service, I dare ask the Orwellian question, “Why isn’t public service providing services to the public.
We must concern ourselves with whether society is providing the serices we need, to us. To expect anything from the neediest, the lowest of the low, is perverse. Is CheneyGatesRedstoneEisnerLayWelch corporate America conributing to social security and society? That’s what I want to ask.
The whole argument is another red herring set within their framing, like Reagan’s welfare queens driving Cadilacs. Watch language and framing carefully, and try to never employ their frame.

Posted by: Malooga | Mar 27 2006 22:25 utc | 69

Tragedy of the Commons? a cheater or a fool.

Posted by: gus | Mar 27 2006 23:11 utc | 70

I think it is in Das Kapital that Marx tells one of his many anecdotes (the anecdotes in the footnotes are really interesting) about how british landowners ran ordinary peasants away and stole their land. After doing so they often spared one village or even built a mock-village. In it the model peasants lived decent lives and provided a living countryside, saying “yes my lord”, “of course my lady” whenever the gentry ask for something. The daylabourers who did the actual work were hired for low wage and a short time in the summer and were not allowed to stay on the lands they worked at. The way I see it, we in the west live in the mock village and the rest of the world are the daylabourers. The elite as always lives in the castle.
Now the elite has concluded that the mock-village is not necessary any more, they no longer are afraid that the peasants will storm the castle. So daylabourers are allowed to take over more and more of the well-paid jobs previously performed by the peasants in the mock village.
Now what do we do, defend our old privileges or start making plans to do something about that old castle?
And there is were amnesties and unions and organisation comes to play. For workers to gain power we must unite, and in a way the globalisation is an opportunity. By trying to push everybody to the same subsistance wage level, a real basis for solidarity among workers of the world is laid.
Capital might be perfectly mobile, but capitalists and the real products capital represents are not. I am not sure were that leads, but I think it is important.

Posted by: a swedish kind of death | Mar 27 2006 23:17 utc | 71

skod: brilliant!

Posted by: Malooga | Mar 27 2006 23:20 utc | 72

Watching Lou Dobbs. Its interesting to see the mayor of LA come out say a law cracking down on illegals is illegal while talking to illegals. What the hell is this world coming to?
Go to Huffington Post and an article linked to the Wall Street Journal, “American Wage Gap Growing Wider and Wider…” is on the site. The whole thing is about driving down labor cost. In 1970 there was 200 million in the US. This fall the 300 millionth US citzen will be born. While I like maloogas arguements of solidarity, it won’t happen, it is a pipe dream. This whole thing must be done one country at a time. Those countries that are successful then can drive the worldwide agenda for human rights. We have lost that in the US after the fall of the USSR. We need to get it back, because the capitalist have grabed the agenda, they waited like a lion ready to strick and have filled the void leaving workers and human rights by the wayside.
Oh yah, nice thread and great comments.

Posted by: jdp | Mar 27 2006 23:50 utc | 73

i’ve lurked here many times and finally had the time to read it all in one fell swoop. great thread.
malooga, once again you shine.
conchita, you add so much, thanks for chiming in.
groucho, go read b real’s 10:28:53 PM nyt link if you think they don’t pay taxes
uncle, today is my first ‘normal day’ after almost 2 wks of a killer flu, hang in there.
sloth, jpd,noisette, dan os,skod,everyone, you’re all so smart i really don’t know how to respond. but my ideas are pretty much stuck on the rove/non issue pepe writes about. not that it is a non issue, just that it’s not the problem.
there is enough for everyone to go around. around the globe may be another issue. the way i see it, the offshoring has raped the jobs from the middle, the gov/elites/corporations want us to a.not notice, b. if we notice blame the immigrants!
a friend of mine working on the border says these minutemen are completely infiltrated w/these weirdo undercover agents that shoot at the borderpolice and create havoc. the only reason this snafu w/immigration now is the rethugs need an issue.
ok, personally, we have it so easy in our comfortable homes, lollying about on the internet trying to figure out the solution. anyone willing to mule it thru mountains and desert to get here and work their fingers to the bones deserves to be here. that’s my 2 cents. and anyone willing to live crammed into small spaces w/their whole family and more looking for a better life, that may not even be better…
or say, this country we live in based on this myth of america, a myth that is fast becoming only a myth, was built on immigrants all looking for a better life. when you take away the reason we all got here to begin with, except of course our native americans that we treat like immigrants anyway,when you take that effort, or dream out of the equation, what’s left of the myth? we are a nation of immigrants. get over it. what a joke to blame the poorest of the poor for the money woes created by the elite!

Posted by: annie | Mar 28 2006 2:57 utc | 74

NYT: Senate Panel Approves Broad Immigration Reform Bill

The Senate Judiciary Committee approved sweeping election-year legislation Monday that clears the way for 11 million illegal aliens to seek U.S. citizenship, a victory for demonstrators who had spilled into the streets by the hundreds of thousands demanding better treatment for immigrants.
With a bipartisan coalition in control, the committee also voted down proposed criminal penalties on immigrants found to be in the country illegally. It approved a new temporary program allowing entry for 1.5 million workers seeking jobs in the agriculture industry.

The 12-6 vote broke down along unusual lines, with a majority of the panel’s Republicans opposed to the measure even though their party controls the Senate.
Sen. Jon Kyl, R-Ariz., seeking re-election this fall in his border state, said the bill offered amnesty to illegal immigrants, and sought unsuccessfully to insert tougher provisions.

Senators on all sides of the issue agreed that illegal workers hold thousands of jobs that otherwise would go unfilled at the wages offered.
The agriculture industry is “almost entirely dependent on undocumented workers,” said Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif.
In purely political terms, the issue threatened to fracture Republicans as they head into the midterm election campaign — one group eager to make labor readily available for low-wage jobs in industries such as agriculture, construction and meatpacking, the other determined to place a higher emphasis on law enforcement.
That was a split Bush was hoping to avoid after a political career spent building support for himself and his party from the fast-growing Hispanic population.

At several critical points, committee Democrats showed unity while Republicans splintered. In general, Graham, Sen. Sam Brownback of Kansas and Sen. Mike DeWine of Ohio, who is seeking re-election this fall, voted with the Democrats. That created a majority that allowed them to shape the bill to their liking.
Feinstein won approval for the five-year program to permit as many as 1.5 million agriculture workers into the country. “It will provide the agriculture industry with a legal work force and offer agriculture workers a path to citizenship,” she said. The vote was 11-5, with Republicans casting all the votes in opposition.

Posted by: b | Mar 28 2006 3:10 utc | 75

I’m stealing a post from Georgia10 at dkos with news that doesn’t seem to have hit here yet. She sees the immigration issue as a Democrat advantage now. I know this doesn’t address the essential issues raised by Malooga and the rest of us, but it is a development in the game that I thought worth posting.
The Senate Judiciary Committee approved of an immigration reform plan which is at odds with the draconian House version. With what MSNBC called the “Democrats’ advantage”, our party was able to strip out the more offensive measures of the House bill. An amendment offered by Senator Durbin would exempt charities and churches from penalties for providing food, shelter, and assistance to undocumented immigrants. Also, the Committee dropped the criminal penalties for those who are here illegally. The bill was approved 12-6.
At several critical points, committee Democrats were united while Republicans splintered. In general, GOP Sens. Lindsay Graham of South Carolina, Sam Brownback of Kansas and Mike DeWine of Ohio, who is seeking re-election this fall, sided with Democrats.
That gave Democrats a majority that allowed them to shape the bill to their liking.
Earlier Monday, as more than a thousand immigration rights activists rallied outside the Capitol, the Senate Judiciary Committee adopted an amendment by Sen. Dick Durbin, D-Ill., that would protect church and charitable groups, as well as individuals, from criminal prosecution for providing food, shelter, medical care and counseling to undocumented immigrants.
Republicans want to make immigration a “wedge” issue for the midterm elections–but it appears it is acting as a wedge for the Republican Party itself, as the GOP struggles to find a common approach to this issue. Debate on the bill begins tomorrow in the full Senate. It should be an interesting debate.

Posted by: conchita | Mar 28 2006 3:18 utc | 76

whoops. looks like bernhard was on the same flight path as georgia10.

Posted by: conchita | Mar 28 2006 3:19 utc | 77

“education, organizing, and activism” are the key ingredients to our way off of this path that we, collectively, have been led (not always unwillingly): education in order to gain & share insight into the nature of both our predicament & ourselves; organization in order to address our most serious problems & to implement alternative institutions & communities; and activism, to increase our choices & generate the momentum to turn vision into reality.
as malooga points out, this is a larger issue than just the “equality of unequals.”

Posted by: b real | Mar 28 2006 3:48 utc | 78

Meteor Blades has posted an excellent diary on dkos about this, picking up on many of the issues highlighted on this thread – globalisation, sustainability, etc. I feel a bit like a dkos pimp tonight, but it’s another good one and worth reading. The gist of what he is saying: I have no hopes that, even if they could, elected Democrats would follow the Iroquois model of looking ahead seven generations in evaluating the possible effects of any policy decisions they make in this matter. Can I at least suggest they look beyond the November elections in choosing a stance? That they remember migration is about people, both the ones who arrived long ago and the ones who will come next week? That they view migration not in isolation from other economic and social policies? That they make the environment and sustainability a high priority in their deliberations? That they deal realistically but not hysterically with the national security aspects of migration? That when they plan for tomorrow, they recall what happened yesterday?

Posted by: conchita | Mar 28 2006 3:58 utc | 79

The key is the one sentance in the news article. Senators agreed that illegals hold jobs that would go unfilled at the wages paid. Thats the bottom line.
Basically the dems took the issue from the rethugs business constituancy. A good politcal move, but what abou the driving down of wages. I have to agree with meteor blades, this is another short sighted bil like the 1986 act. The inside the beltway dems have sold out labor just like before and yet they’ll come back and say to labor, hey, we represent you, not the rethugs.
As stated above, I have mixed emotions on this issue, but I’ve seen what globalization has done to my state, and al of these workers will just ad icing to the greedy businessmans cake.
Betting though, this bill will never come out of conference.

Posted by: jdp | Mar 28 2006 4:14 utc | 80

groucho,
I do not advocate building the 13-foot tall fence and lining it with border patrol guards and immigration officials, my point is that until we are prepared to do so, all the current debate on immigration reform is just so much political posturing.
I don’t think that America is prepared to do so, at least until we gnentically engineer self-harvesting vegetables, self-mowing lawns and develop self-cleaning homes and offices. And self-stocking Wal-Mart shelves, and self-washing cars, self-trimming hedges…etc.

Posted by: ralphieboy | Mar 28 2006 13:40 utc | 81

Well Ralph,
You find me that guy that can gentically engineer the self-harvesting vegetable, we’ll buy 50%, get him into the country on an H1B visa, and be in business.
Or maybe we should just start a Visa Business
Looks like there are 50 ways to make money in that line of work.

Posted by: Groucho | Mar 28 2006 14:11 utc | 82

a few quick points:
1) The US produces 25% of the world’s greenhouse gases and pollution, and consumes 25% of the world’s resources. What happens when our population grows by 25%? From a pollution standpoint, what we have here, is more people buying into an unsustainable model. You do the math.
2) Analyzing politics on the level of “the repubs are fracturing, key provisions are being removed, etc.”, is extremely limited, at best, if not downright misleading. It is buying into the surface appearance of a theatre piece, and clapping at all the applause lines. How do we know that the Repub’s did not introduce this bill knowing that it would fail, that it was designed to fail, but it would serve the purpose of satisfying key elements of their coalition? They could then go back to their base and say, “We tried.” Additionally, this is clearly a regional issue, with different areas of the country having different experiences. I would again like to suggest that this is finely crafted theatre by both parties (after all, isn’t that what the ‘commitees’ do, create mutually acceptable theatre) in order to score local points for individual candidates, some of whom might need to distance themselves from the administration as part of their ‘branding.’
A theme I would like to develop at greater length in another post, is the essential illegitimacy of the system. Asking the system of corporate contributions and political patronage to adhere to the Iroquios Conventions is about as laughable as expecting teenagers to abstain from sex. You can ask, you can threaten, you can cajole, you can sermonize, and you can implore all your want; it simply will not happen. You can’t expect political whores to cut their own necks.
That doesn’t mean that advocacy groups should stop lobbying, and we should give up putting pressure on politicians to enact the policies we want. It simply means that we should see the process, and the power dynamics, for what they are, without romantic illusions. It will serve us better in the long run.
3) jdp is right that the “immigrants do jobs that none of us will do” meme is very dangerous reactionary cant. Before the modern labor movement, all industrial jobs were jobs which no one wanted to do. Unions, fair wages and hours, and safer conditions, converted these same jobs into desired positions in our society. This happened because people struggled and lost their lives fighting for these changes; they were not bequeathed to us by the noble and gracious elite. We should be taught extensively about this in school, not about all of our “great wars.” As these standards are rolled back, under the relentless attack of neo-liberalism, we are seeing more and more “jobs that no one wants to do.” It is not the jobs that are at issue, is is the pay and the labor conditions — something which is not “ordained” but set consciously by society. Our enemy is the rollback of labor gains, and we forget this at our peril.
If I could make $100/hr. cleaning toilets, and work at it one day a week, in order to have the money to do something else, I would jump at it.
4) Now let me get romantic for a second. Imagine that we had the power to create the world we want. Imagine if, instead of serving in the military killing brown people, our youth had other options. Imagine a just world. Imagine a world where several years of real “public service” were required of all. Every teenager might be afforded the opportunity to follow our great harvests, fruit and vegetables on the east and west coast, grains and meat in the heartland, from south to north, along the great rivers and vast plains, to awake in the mornings with the sun and bed down at night with the stars; to really see and understand and feel gratitude for ‘the ways and means’ by which our food comes to us.
Every teenager might have to spend a year in true public service — cleaning up environmental problems, caring for the elderly or poor, and ministering to the sick, especially those from past wars, who we now sequester away in the vast VA bureauocracy. Inner city, suburban, small town, and country kids would exchange places, traveling east or west, north or south, to see the country, and learn and get to understand how it functions.
Imagine that all the violence, and injustice, and theft, which we compartmentalize, and secret away from us so we do not have to see it, in this construct which we call “civilization,” were broken apart, like an immense pocket watch, and its workings laid bare for us to examine freely and comment upon.
Imagine that, instead of setting up systems of compartmentalized slavery, and calling it “work that no one wants to do,” we set up systems of mutual cooperation, and called it “society.”
Well, well, well… In these days of constant nightmare, of outrage upon outrage, crime upon crime, murder upon murder; of man against man and machine against man, we must have our warm and comforting hopes, aspirations, and dreams.
It would most certainly spell the death knell of extreme sports, populated by that claque of young urban apparatchiks serving the vast propaganda apparatus (which we call advertising, and media, and art, and fashion), who have never had to do anything remotely adventurous, or dangerous, or even remotely concretely meaningful. Why is jumping off a cliff with a bungee cord in Nepal considered more of an “experience” than spending three months with a jackhammer helping repair our crumbling infrastructure? I spent 4 1/2 years as an operator at an oil refinery, climbing 250 ft towers which jump and rock with the boiling oil percolating madly within them, walking a bunch of six inch pipes forty feet in the air with nothing beneath me, and fighting huge fires which threatened to explode at a moments notice. I did this all in the service of producing a product which we all consume. Why would I need extreme sports?

Posted by: Malooga | Mar 28 2006 14:26 utc | 83

There is a sexist joke about the “ideal woman”: one who screws you silly until midnight and then turns into a six-pack and a pizza.
This seems to correspond to the American notion of the “ideal illegal immigrant”: one who comes over, does the dirty work for low wages, takes the money and goes back home at the end of the work season/business cycle.
Problem is, they don’t go away! They wind up sticking around and having kids who, like the bastard offspring of our casual liasons, come to our doorstep looking for health care and education, and who are capable of causing a great deal of trouble if they go ignored.

Posted by: ralphieboy | Mar 28 2006 16:46 utc | 84

Malooga,
beautiful dream.

Posted by: A swedish kind of death | Mar 28 2006 16:51 utc | 85

“Problem is, they don’t go away! They wind up sticking around and having kids who, like the bastard offspring of our casual liasons, come to our doorstep looking for health care and education, and who are capable of causing a great deal of trouble if they go ignored.”
bummer isn’t it. i don’t want to pay a buck for an apple but i sure as hell don’t want to have to educate the kids of an undocumented worker (paying taxes w/a fake id). you know what really gets me is the nerve of these guys to reproduce or want to live w/their relatives. if we could only figure out a way to just allow in the ones who don’t have any need for family. granted when they go back after the picking season they have to risk their lives to enter again, but that’s no big deal cuz if they don’t survive there are more where they come from. it’s that damn maintainence that gets you everytime. the pesky opinions and have.
what we need is the worker equivalent of a prostitute.
they don’t have feelings. they don’t have needs. no repercussions. they only exist for abuse and our pleasure.

Posted by: annie | Mar 28 2006 18:15 utc | 86

snicker.
The bigger question is, “Do we really believe that, after 500 years of industrial development, we are not able (can’t afford, is the phrase politicians employ) to take care of our old and sick, and raise our kids?”
And if this is true, how much more development do we need before we get there, or is there a better way?
Will we be able to care for ourselves if we sell off all public lands and all public utilities and all of our public airwaves and maybe close down government because it is too expensive and just have corporations with private armies running amok. Will that bring us the money we think we need to care for ourselves.
Obviously, questioning along these lines exposes the utter fraud of the choices politicians offer us.
Money, or lack of it, is very often used by politician’s to enforce genocidal moral choices that people would never stand for. It is part of how Capitalism divides and slaughters: a free-market Sparta.
What if we said caring for our population is more important a goal for us than wars, than the Dow Jones going up 5%/yr., than tax cuts. What if polsters actually asked questions like this, which would energise and educate the population to the possibilities right in front of their eyes, instead of the usual line of questioning, with its false options, which blinder and enslave the public.
We must fight to educate all children, and care for all human beings.

Posted by: Malooga | Mar 28 2006 18:45 utc | 87

annie,
Another famous sexist comment is that a man pays a prostitute not so much for the sex, but to go away afterwards and never bother him again.
I once proposed (sarcastically) that we could build the border fence out of radioactive mine tailings as it would make illegals easy to detect with a geiger counter, but I guess there’d be another benefit: they’d be sterilized as well…
In any case, business often forgets that markets exist to serve people, not the other way around. The market can be a useful mechanism to balance supply & demand and direct the flow of capital. As an ideology, it can be twisted into a force every bit as inhumane as Naziism or Bolshevism.

Posted by: ralphieboy | Mar 28 2006 19:14 utc | 88

malooga, thanks for the solari link. I have looked it over and sent the address to my office. I believe her approach is the right approach. I read the section where a person talks about starting an account at a local run bank instead of Bank of America.
This is the kind of sustainable economy that I have been preaching here locally. We have talked about a state and local mutual fund. I will look at Fits seminars and outlines and spread the word.
Thanks again.

Posted by: jdp | Mar 29 2006 0:10 utc | 89

jdp:
Please go to radio4all.net and download one or two of her talks from last year. They make her case very well and very succinctly and very enjoyably. Just the thing to share with others and get them thinking. And the lady has credentials too!
Not only is it right, it’s revolutionary in its simplicity. Take the money away from the war-mongering financial corporations and invest it locally.

Posted by: Malooga | Mar 29 2006 0:25 utc | 90

I once proposed (sarcastically) that we could build the border fence out of radioactive mine tailings as it would make illegals easy to detect with a geiger counter, but I guess there’d be another benefit: they’d be sterilized as well…
@Ralphie:
With Ideas like these you’ll never lack for work. I understand Rumsfeled is looking for a smart #2 at the Pentagon.

Posted by: Groucho | Mar 29 2006 0:43 utc | 91

Actually many do pay taxes and social security as well.. There is a system set up for “illegals” to file taxes using a ITIN number. In regards to the s.s many pay into it.

Posted by: grace | Mar 29 2006 0:57 utc | 92

@Grace:
I’ve only seen that once or twice in my experience as an employer. I’d like to read a definite link on it, if you’ve got one, so I could understand it a bit better.
Then you have a percentage whose employers work in the cash economy where no one pays any kind of taxes whatever.
Then you have those who have acquired false documents from a document mill(<=3/4). Payroll taxes are witheld which they will never see a return on. Many regard this cynically as a cost of employment. The government, more cynically, regards this cash flow as a freebie to SS . Interesting how it all works.

Posted by: Groucho | Mar 29 2006 1:31 utc | 93

groucho, the undocumented folks i am friendly with are paid three ways: 1) cash off the books; 2) 1099 using a fake SS#; 3) filing out payroll paperwork using a friend’s legal SS#. they work in the film industry and make $500-1000/day which means they alone have contributed a fair amount to us taxes without seeing any benefit but the oppportunity to work. my friend who is about to become legal after 10 years of working under these arrangements told me how good it felt to be filling out his own social security number. however, now he is dealing with the concept of paying taxes on all of the 1099 income for the first time. never a fun moment for those who have not made quarterly estimated payments.

Posted by: conchita | Mar 29 2006 2:41 utc | 94

democratic congressman bart gordon working on investigatation/oversight on the offshoring of jobs. could use a little help in the way of phone calls and letters.

Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 29 2006 2:48 utc | 95

this thread is like the gift that keeps on giving:)

Posted by: annie | Mar 29 2006 3:15 utc | 96

Groucho,
I have already learned that I must be very careful what I say around my kids, I can be taken way too seriously. The same thing would happen if I went to work for Rumsfeld…
Illegals pay sales taxes in any case, and we must consider that without them, a lot of contractors and subcontractors would be out of business and paying no taxes at all, either.
Nonetheless, I would like to see a system where guest workers can come over and live, work and pay taxes legally and enjoy the same rights (except the right to vote) as US citizens.
But I still do not see or hear any political party in America willing to institute a bureaucracy to register and maintain a large population of guest workers as they have in Europe. Nor is there the political or economic will to seal off the borders with barbed wire, mine tailings or an alligator-filled moat.

Posted by: ralphieboy | Mar 29 2006 9:34 utc | 97

Progressives seem split on it. On one side, immigrants raise the potential workforce and thereby put pressure on wages. On the other side, for a nation based on immigration like the U.S., it is difficult to find a moral justification to stop it.
Old school progressives would have looked upon this ‘dilemma’ as a golden opportunity. Millions of immigrants pouring over the borders (whatever their legal status) means millions of potential union members just waiting to be organized.
One they have a union, immigrants can demand better pay, thus reducing the overall downward pressure on wages that the current sytem creates. Also, with their new collective power, immigrants can fight more effectively for fairer laws and greater representation.
Just goes to show how much progressives still to re-learn.

Posted by: Night Owl | Mar 30 2006 4:03 utc | 98

SEIU does see it that way. But there are less union jobs in our economy than before. And the endless migration means endless downwoard pressure. Old-time activists did not have to contend with the ravages of NAFTA.

Posted by: Malooga | Mar 30 2006 16:49 utc | 99

Just thought I would drop this here:
Guest-Worker Plan Sets Democratic Supporters Against Organized Labor

Posted by: Groucho | Mar 31 2006 13:29 utc | 100