Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
February 8, 2006
Racist Propaganda Consequences

There are now at least 12 people dead after struggles about the Muhammad cartoons. 

This was utterly predictable. The whole issue is and was not primarily about free speech. The intend of the right wing Danish paper, which first published the cartoons, was to saw exactly this, a clash of civilizations.

When they were offered Jesus cartoons earlier, an editor rejected those, because:

"I don’t think Jyllands-Posten’s readers will enjoy the drawings. As a matter of fact, I think that they will provoke an outcry."

But a Muhammad with the head painted as a bomb and thereby associating all Muslims with terrorism was fine to print. Enjoyable to the readers of Jyllands-Posten. As it was with the evangelical Norwegian papers that reprinted these and the other fishwraps which followed.

As Digby pointed out, such cartoons are not even satire. The objects of satire are authority figures or ideas within the culture where the satire is formed and published. These cartoons are not even about religion, but about one culture smearing the other, i.e. racism.

Publishing these is a conscious ‘incitement of violence’. An official offense in many western countries. It doesn´t matter which side one incites, provoking a fight with deadly consequences is a crime in many western law books.

Such a law was used today to sentence an extreme but well known Iman in the U.K. to seven years of prison. This only in the third attempt and after stretching the case a bit. Says the U.K. Shadow home secretary:

"It would appear the only reason Abu Hamza was actually prosecuted was because the US was seeking his extradition"

The verdict and the circumstances of the case will certainly fuel the fire.

But the question now is how stop this. I really do not know, but the first step is to stop throwing fuel into the fire. The British court would have been well advised to hold their judgment back for some days.

But if the western culture relly claims to be the more enlightened one, that is the side that should act responsible here and cut back the provocations. Stop publishing anti-Muslim racism and apologize when some idiots in this sphere continue to do so.

This is not giving in to some clerical demand, but an acknowledgment that no right is absolute in the face of the rights of others. Not even free speech.

Comments

Laying the groundwork for the attack on Iran methinks; expect a big bang before March 21.

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Feb 8 2006 19:44 utc | 1

Once again, I can not stress how eye opening this book is:
The New Crusades: Constructing the Muslim Enemy

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Feb 8 2006 19:48 utc | 2

Ritter on War With Iran: “It’s going to happen.”
He predicted the matter will wind up before the U.N. Security Council, which will determine there is no evidence of a weapons program. Then, he said, John Bolton, the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, “will deliver a speech that has already been written. It says America cannot allow Iran to threaten the United States and we must unilaterally defend ourselves.””How do I know this? I’ve talked to Bolton’s speechwriter,” Ritter said.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Feb 8 2006 19:55 utc | 3

I am still not convinced. If Christians and Jews can handle printed blasphemies, why can’t Muslims? I always try to imagine what I would do in a parallel case with the situation reversed. Well, if I heard that Europeans in a middle-eastern country were killing people because a newspaper published what they considered a blasphemous cartoon — no matter what it was — I would leave them to their fate, which would probably be, uh, fatal.

If we start curtailing freedom of speech to avoid offense to religion, what next? It’s an invitation for abuse. Scientologists already consider any criticism of Scientology or Hubbard offensive. And what if the Pope announces — as he well might, given who he is — that accusing a Catholic priest of sexual abuse is a blasphemy? Or what happens when some clever but unscrupulous priest decides that any piece of writing that doesn’t open with a line of praise for his religion is blasphemy? Abridging freedom of speech to avoid giving offense to religion will give more power to religious fundamentalists without making them any nicer.

Posted by: The Truth Gets Vicious When You Corner It | Feb 8 2006 20:21 utc | 4

Danish Muslim cartoon walkout

the editorial staff of the alt weekly New York Press walked out today, en masse, after NYP publishers (in the 11th hour) refused to print the Danish cartoons that have become the focal point of a global war on free speech.

snip

The best thing I’ve read on the subject comes from Tariq Ramadan, a leading spokesman for Muslims in Europe, who, in an interview (reprinted in full below) says that “There are no legal limits to free speech, but there are civic limits.” He says that while “Muslims must understand that laughing at religion is a part of the broader culture in which they live in Europe,” there was little to be gained by publishing the cartoons, likening the choice to not insulting people although you’re legally allowed to.

Posted by: beq | Feb 8 2006 20:36 utc | 5

Did anyone else see this diary on Daily Kos?
The author claims about the cartoons, “Some were very bland, others seem to be unquestionably offensive. Yet these cartons were published on September 30, 2005. What the traditional media has failed to explain is why the protests are occuring now.”
There is a lot of information and background in the linked diary, here is what struck me as most relevant:

The most recent Hajj occurred during the first half of January 2006 … There were a number of stampedes, called “tragedies” in the press, during the Hajj which killed several hundred pilgrims.

Over 251 pilgrims were killed during the 2004 Hajj alone in the same area as the one that killed 350 pilgrims in 2006. These were not unavoidable accidents, they were the results of poor planning by the Saudi government.

it was a huge story in the Muslim world. Most of the pilgrims who were killed came from poorer countries such as Pakistan, where the Hajj is a very big story. Even the most objective news stories were suddenly casting Saudi Arabia in a very bad light and they decided to do something about it.
Their plan was to go on a major offensive against the Danish cartoons. The 350 pilgrims were killed on January 12 and soon after, Saudi newspapers (which are all controlled by the state) began running up to 4 articles per day condemning the Danish cartoons. The Saudi government asked for a formal apology from Denmark. When that was not forthcoming, they began calling for world-wide protests. After two weeks of this, the Libyans decided to close their embassy in Denmark. Then there was an attack on the Danish embassy in Indonesia. And that was followed by attacks on the embassies in Syria and then Lebanon.

The above quote is from the Dailykos diary referenced above.
The diarist also has a website, er, blog, with a fuller exposition of the events.

Posted by: jonku | Feb 8 2006 20:42 utc | 6

@b-
I was certainly wrong when I refered to this incident as the “outrage du jour”, or some such wording. But, as I mentioned first in my apology to you on the previous thread, and as U$ and others have since corroborated, what we are witnessing is a planned neo-con “clash of civilizations” event. The question is, will it have its intended effect? The bombings in Madrid certainly did not. The bombings in London were successful in further restricting civil liberties.
When business starts to lose money in an inherently decent society, I would say that this has a great chance of boomeranging on the neo-cons.
@TGVWYCI-
Freedom of Speech is only free when it is free for all. There appears to be no sentiment to printing cartoons openly hostile to Jews or Christians, or for that matter, Danes, and their treatment of Greenlanders, or their Turkish minority, in the same paper. That is what distinguishes freedom from propaganda.
After that argument, there is the “freedom, not license” argument, which I evinced in my post linked to above. Usually the example given is the freedom to scream “FIRE” in movie theatre. But for someone like you who needs more persuading, what about the freedom of a young girl, or better yet, a young boy, to go to your local newspaper and police department and accuse you of sexual molestation. You might eventually get off for lack of evidence–though, if the minor is crafty enough, they can sort through your trash for a little DNA evidence, and watch what time you shut your lights off to deprive you of an alibi–but, the odds are that your life will be irremeadiably affected, if not destroyed. But, hey, why should they not be free to say what they please? And why should the newspapers not be free to run with any accusation, whether it involves your integrity, or the “unattributed sources” that are always used when manufacturing consent, particularly for war.
Perhaps a little analysis of the intended purpose of a free press, in protecting the powerless from the powerful, would do you some good.

Posted by: Malooga | Feb 8 2006 21:02 utc | 7

@beq-
Yes, Tariq Ramadan is a breath of fresh air.
@jonku-
This explanation conflicts with Kurt Nimmo’s claim that this a planned event, designed to increase the manufactured “clash of civilizations”; in reality, a clash of the consciously inflamed least civilized impulses that groups may resort to when they feel threatened. Unless one believes that the Saudis are acting at Bush’s instigation.

Posted by: Malooga | Feb 8 2006 21:11 utc | 8

@jonku – soj’s theory in that Kos diary about “it’s all the Saudis and started after the haji accident” neglects that a lot of demonstrations etc had already happened before the haji.
Juan Cole has fact file of news references that document the escalation over time and debunks soj.
(She usually writes better than that.)

Posted by: b | Feb 8 2006 21:18 utc | 9

Whenever one notes the least civilized elements of a society ascendent, one should suspect the powerful manipulating the powerless for their own means.
Think of the press as a great keyboard on which the government can play.
Joseph Goebbels

Posted by: Malooga | Feb 8 2006 21:19 utc | 10

@Malooga:

Freedom of Speech is only free when it is free for all.

The only report I’ve seen that suggests freedom of speech is being denied to Muslims is the report of the arrest of Hazma. And if you read the full charge sheet from the BBC, it sounds like he really did ask his followers to kill others. (Feel free to complain about the other charges.)

There appears to be no sentiment to printing cartoons openly hostile to Jews or Christians, or for that matter, Danes, and their treatment of Greenlanders, or their Turkish minority, in the same paper. That is what distinguishes freedom from propaganda.

There appears to be no sentiment to allowing right-wing trolls to post on this board, either, but I haven’t seen you complain that this board is propaganda. This board is intended for leftist/liberal/whatever-name-is-acceptable discussion, so it is legitimate for this board to block out people who don’t fit. If you want to control what the newspapers print, well, I can’t stop you, but if the Danish government can step in when there is no prior legal specification, then why shouldn’t the U.S. government under Bush step in and do similar things in the U.S.?

People are complaining that the newspaper refused to publish similar cartoons about Jesus in the past, for fear of causing offense. Well, okay, that makes the newspaper hypocritical and nasty. But it has nothing to do with freedom of speech. It’s only a freedom of speech issue if those other cartoons were not allowed because of governmental interference.

Posted by: The Truth Gets Vicious When You Corner It | Feb 8 2006 22:07 utc | 11

Malooga I checked Kurt Nimmo, who led me to Christopher Bollyn (“‘Agents of certain persuasion’ are behind the egregious affront to Islam in order to provoke Muslims, Professor Mikael Rothstein of the University of Copenhagen told the BBC. The key “agent” is Flemming Rose, the cultural editor of JP, who commissioned cartoonists to produce the blasphemous images and then published them in Denmark’s leading morning paper last September.”).
Bollyn in turn quotes Rixon Stewart:

The acquittal and retrial of British National Party leaders on charges of inciting “racial hatred” was the lead item on BBC TV News broadcasts (1) Thursday night. Followed immediately by a report on the furore (2) in the Muslim community caused by cartoons depicting Mohammad.
On the face of it this might seem perfectly reasonable journalism but the juxtaposition of the two as lead items, when far more important things are going on – such as the war in Iraq or the pending attack on Iran – reveals a darker agenda altogether.
First and foremost it must be pointed out that enmity between various groups is being deliberately fostered, no matter what the authorities say, and much of this is being done under the guise of “press freedom”. It’s a variation on the old theme of divide and rule and the juxtaposition and prominence given to these two stories is a perfect example of just how this is being achieved.

There are a huge number of threads here, and some evidence of provocation (Saudi newspapers inciting, European newspapers all reprinting the cartoons on February 1, the proximity of JP editor Rose with Daniel Pipes) followed by prominent coverage of rioting etc. and the subsquent debates muddying the waters.
The idea that the conflagration pushes other stories off the front page also favors the powers-that-be, not that they really need an excuse because the news is always bad for them. 🙂
I just wanted to bring up the possibility that this might be a little bit of provocation, a word in the right ear, and also simple opportunism.
I wouldn’t be surprised at Saudi provocation; there’s a heckuva lot I don’t know about who talks to who but I know it happens and the effects aren’t usually helpful, nor are the methods easily discovered.
As for the debate about free speech vs. caution to not upset, I simply believe that reasonable people should be able to get along and mostly do when they are not propagandized. And I think almost everyone barring sociopaths is reasonable.

Posted by: jonku | Feb 8 2006 23:57 utc | 12

Yes, absolutely. Also, Newsweek lied, people died.
Oh, wait… My head is going to explode.

Posted by: JR | Feb 8 2006 23:58 utc | 13

U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice accused Iran and Syria, both at loggerheads with the West, of inciting violence over the cartoons for their own purposes.

Posted by: DM | Feb 9 2006 0:10 utc | 14

Sorry about that, I usually bite my tongue when I’m that angry. But how can anyone be expected to take this seriously:
“This is not giving in to some clerical demand, but an acknowledgment that no right is absolute in the face of the rights of others. Not even free speech.”
What “rights of others” are we talking about? The right not be offended? The right to prevent a newspaper printed in a country thousands of miles away from printing cartoons? The right to riot and burn because you think that one’s co-religionists in a foreign country- people one has never met- feel put upon?
I personally believe that the world’s great religions are laughable. Mormonism? What a crock. Southern Baptists? Racist, sexist troglodytes. The Roman Catholic Church? A pedophile conspiracy. Moslems? Stuck in the Middle Ages. I think it’s important for secular people to be free to point out that religion is bullshit. I think that religion is on the whole a force for evil in the world and that atheists must not fear to express their views forcefully, in words and pictures, seriously or satirically. You think I should be prevented from saying these things because I might hurt someone’s feelings? Or only a law if the people whose feelings are hurt are likely to riot?

Posted by: JR | Feb 9 2006 0:10 utc | 15

Bernhard, thanks for the link to Juan Cole whose press timeline seems definitive.
Cole’s conclusion:

Anyway, the allegation that this thing was fanned by Saudi Arabia does not seem to be substantiated by the FBIS record, which shows Egypt’s secular foreign minister to have been among the main fanners of the flame. Minor members of youth wings of Islamist parties in places like Pakistan then got into the action. Nor is it true that things were quiet after the immediate publication of the cartoons. Nor is it true that the Danish prime minister or the Jyllands-Posten expressed any sympathy for the hurt feelings of Muslims early on. Indeed, they lectured them on being uncivilized for objecting.
[emphasis in original]

So Cole points to Denmark, then Egypt, as two forces blowing on the cinders and trying to fan the flames.
Anyway, b., clearly we agree. How to stop it? I would have hoped that a world leader of stature might speak up. Pierre Trudeau, Canada’s Prime Minister from 1968 to 1979, was capable of this kind of rhetoric and pouring oil on troubled waters. Alas, we now have Stephen Harper who is no Trudeau.
Apologies about the “oil on troubled waters” metaphor when we are still using the “fuel on the fire” one.
It feels like the Iraq invasion all over again, when we all knew it was coming almost a year in advance, even to the month.

Posted by: jonku | Feb 9 2006 0:13 utc | 16

“You think I should be prevented from saying these things because I might hurt someone’s feelings?”
JR, I give you the following sentence:
I wish that you should have the proper judgement to decide for yourself whether the contents of your speech are worthwhile, or whether they are simply designed to incite retaliation.

Posted by: jonku | Feb 9 2006 0:18 utc | 17

I think that speech intended to point out that religion makes people do bad things is important. You think that I should be afraid to tell people that religion makes people does bad things, because if I do people will do bad things. You call telling the truth “incitement.”
I think that the picture of Mohammed with a bomb in his turban is a truthful and important image. It concisely describes the beliefs of Bin Laden and many others. Are we supposed to pretend that Bin Laden is not motivated by religion, because if we tell the truth his co-religionists will riot?

Posted by: JR | Feb 9 2006 0:42 utc | 18

people like bin laden, if he isn’t a goldstein, will use religion as a tool to motivate the lumpen regardless of his own belief
as does any dear leader

Posted by: gmac | Feb 9 2006 1:03 utc | 19

Sorry, JR. You lose. Thanks for playing.

Posted by: jonku | Feb 9 2006 1:10 utc | 20

Of course, the publication of such cartoons would be illegal in most states of the European Union, as well as Canada, and the publishers, as well as the artists, would probably be thrown in jail and forced to issue a groveling apology. Rose is supposedly against any religion demanding “special treatment,” but apparently there is at least one exception.

Posted by: DM | Feb 9 2006 1:26 utc | 21

.. and Justin’s concluding paragraph is worth careful reading — given that we are all grown-ups here and we know this shit has been going on since at least 1898.
The publication of the 12 cartoons, and the reaction on both sides, is a classic case of how propaganda of the crudest sort is utilized to mold mass attitudes and whip up entire populations into a state of hysteria. Hate and fear are created out of thin air by the most skillful means, and stereotypes take the place of reality as the world prepares for war. That’s what this is all about: the hate propaganda emanating from certain quarters in Europe and the U.S. amounts to preparations for war just as much as the manufacture of arms and the mobilization of armies at the border. We are being psychologically prepared for another world war, and the first shots are being fired from the pages of Jyllands-Posten. I have the sinking feeling that they won’t be the last…

Posted by: DM | Feb 9 2006 1:35 utc | 22

When a murderer whips himself into a frenzy, insulting his victim with worse and worse accusations of bad things done, the victim is not afraid of the words said. The victim is properly afraid that the words are mechanisms by which the murderer tunes himself up to kill.
First, the murderers convince themselves, and their wives and daughters and friends, that the victim was never more than vermin.
This is simply how murder is done.
Vicious Truth, I respect much of what you say. But this is preparation for murder. What will we gain by defending it? Should you or I expect to be safe when the murderers need their next adventure?

Posted by: citizen | Feb 9 2006 6:12 utc | 23

The Raimondo article is excellent; probably says it better than anyone here has.
The Washington Post article begins with this lead, “The global furor over cartoons of the prophet Muhammad can be traced to one day last September when newspaper editor Flemming Rose smelled a good story.” Well, yes–except that he did not write a story about what he ‘smelled.’ Standard journalistic standards demand a “he said, she said” rendition, interviewing people from both sides of the spectrum. Ideally, a healthy dialogue resulting in greater understanding on both sides would result. Instead, he went ahead and printed what he knew would be inflamatory cartoons, without any mediative or conciliatory explanations. Now he is comparing himself to “a woman who has raped because she wore too short a dress,” in other words, the victim in this whole thing. Well, he has now earned his neo-con “bones.” Still, with business losing this much money, I expect major healing, or at least conciliatory, initiatives to follow.
@ The Truth….-
Regarding freedom of speech in Denmark specifically, following standard practices of analysis, one would need to examine this case against one where the interests of the State of Denmark were challenged. An example would be the debates in the late seventies before Greenland was begrudgingly granted home rule. I think you would find that the press in Denmark at the time, and indeed for many years after, were not so charitable with their depictions of Greenlanders who argued for independence.
Hamza, it has been noted, would be guilty as an accesory to murder if his incitements lead anyone to be killed. But if nobody is killed, then I suppose only hate speech laws would be in effect. Is anyone familiar with British Hate Laws and the penalties they carry, and was Hamdi’s sentence within guidelines?
Second point: Let’s not get carried away comparing what Jylland-Posten did and what we allow on this blog. This is a private space, not tasked with a public responsibility. The Danish paper was. There is no similarity.
You state: People are complaining that the newspaper refused to publish similar cartoons about Jesus in the past, for fear of causing offense. Well, okay, that makes the newspaper hypocritical and nasty. But it has nothing to do with freedom of speech. It’s only a freedom of speech issue if those other cartoons were not allowed because of governmental interference.
Again, more pertinent, is what it has to do with the manufacture of public consent. It is hard to argue with someone who hasn’t digested the most basic principles upon which our society operates. Not to be repetitive, but Herman/Chomsky, in “Manufacturing Consent” postulate five principle filters which govern the way public opinion is shaped by the elite. To quote from the book, “The culture and ideology fostered in this globalization project…tend to weaken any sense of community helpful to civic life.” Now the specific filters have been critiqued and refined and added to over time. The fifth filter at the time of the book’s publication in 1988, ‘anti-communism’, has been essentially superceeded by what the press might term “Islamic Terrorism”, or what Chomsky might more accurately describe as “non-state Muslim reaction to American, and to a lesser extent European, crimes.” If the US bombs Libya or Iraq or Iran or The Sudan illegally causing civilian death, that is refered to in the corporate press as “Defending our interests, with (if admitted to) unfortunate collateral damage.” If after having his house bulldozed or bombed, a Palestinian or Iraqi retaliates with force, that is refered to as Islamic Terrorism.” Until there are equal treatments of both sides of a conflict, there can be no understanding or justice. The same principle obtains in this case.

Posted by: Malooga | Feb 9 2006 6:32 utc | 24

All of the above being stated, I will now argue against myself, and in favor of Danish ‘free speech’ by relating a story.
The Danes are renowned for their rather forthright sense of humor. Coming from New York, I rather doubted that I could be taken aback, but I was. On my second trip to Denmark, accompanied by my new girlfriend–and wife-to-be–we attended many parties, and I had the ‘pleasure’ of meeting my GF’s many past boyfriends and lovers. Invariably, they were all 6’5”, bearded, pipe smoking, bears, with hands the size and strength of grizzly bear paws. I’m about 5’6″, and was about 2/3’s their mass, and for all the world felt like Woody Allen meeting Annie Hall’s family at Christmas dinner where he imagines himself a nineteenth century Polish Jew right out of the Shetl, in black frock replete with Payus, and coke bottle glasses. Or at least like Robert Reich trying to reach the mike on the speaker’s podium.
Invariably, these guys would gaze down upon me with seeming charity and then proclaim something to the effect of “Gee, you’re a midget!,” with great surprise. By the end of the evening, I was near tears. It really had to be explained to me that those comments were meant to indicate comfort and friendship, and that one would never speak that way as a hostile act. Years of experience later taught me the truth to this. However, it was quite an adjustment initially, and proof that understanding of cultural morés is quite essential to common understanding.
The point to all of this is merely to point out that different cultures can greatly misunderstand each other, without the conditions for trust.

Posted by: Malooga | Feb 9 2006 6:58 utc | 25

I’m the only person surprised that the US media has all stuck together on not publishing this?
That doesn’t suggest a little shall we say ‘lack of freedom of speech’ in the US.
I mean there is absolutely nothing to suggest that the US media have suddenly become beacons of tolerance in a sea of world prejudice and consent manufacturing is there?
Does anyone know if the publishers of the New York Press are normally so assiduous in protecting Islam from denigration?
This way the US is left out of the picture; vital if this ad-lib ploy is to do it’s job, which is of course to rid Europe of any last vestiges of respect for the people of the middle east.
If the US had published, in a flash the protesters attention would have been diverted from North Western Europe, where until now people had been quite stubborn in their determination not to give in to old prejudices, and back onto the usual suspect.
United State of Aggrandizement
BushCo are desperate to get more support for the old Iranian business, lest they get a bunch of ragheads handing them their heads.
The only way they can avoid that is if the Iranians get bluffed into thinking the US has a good hand, ie all of Nato is gonna pile in too.
That is what this is about, although I’m not sure that is how it started off. There’s more than one Rove out there and I suspect this was classic seat of the pants opportunism. The Flemming Rose slime was probably just indulging his prejudices and imitating his maestros, when it was spun outta control by mainchancers, very similar to the Satanic Verses affair.
The other reason for the ‘delay’ between September and now was that the Muslims of Denmark repeatedly attempted to resolve the issue in country. Once they found themselves being used for non-muslim Danish political opportunism they had little recourse but to take the issue ‘offshore’. If they hadn’t they would have been left feeling vulnerable to attack at a time when no Muslim in a majority xtian culture can possibly feel the old safety.
Couple more things .
“They” whoever “they” may be, aren’t killing each other. As far as I can tell, the bulk of the deaths have occured in Afghanistan, which means ‘we’ probably killed ‘them’.
For what? For wanting to torch an embassy? Basically just bricks and mortar. There’s not a bullshit factory/embassy anywhere on this planet worth the life of one person. That’s why the Lebanese and Syrians had to let the protesters past in the end. But ‘we’ didn’t in Kabul.
I have yet to see a post in here arguing that the media shouldn’t be allowed to publish these things. Mostly people have been saying that they are appalled that the media found it permissible to print such out and out hatred and prejudice of another culture’s religion.
Should a predominently xtian country denigrate xtians ‘flights of fancy’ eg miracles, resurrections, madonnas on a cheese toasted? Why not? It is one thing to take on a predominent belief of a culture from within that culture and quite another to do it from outside.
Parents will know how it feels if somone outside the family mentions some teensie weensie flaw that one of your children may have had once but we worked on that a long time ago (LOL). That can destroy even the closest and longstanding relationships. This is very much the same sort of stuff.
Many of the societies that published this garbage have very restrictive libel laws. The fishwraps would respond that you can’t libel the dead, however I’m by no means sure Mohammed feels dead to his billion plus followers.
Wherever one looks with this issue, the stench of pious hypocrisy is redolent and although that charge may be levelled at aspects of Islam too, most of it is floating out of the mealy mouths of the usual lily-livered, couldn’t lie straight in bed, apologies for accuracy, western media.
Lastly, the only lies that Newsweek told was in retracting their original story.
If contrarians insist in hanging around this bar and pissing on the carpet, facts are required to sustain discussions, not oft repeated talking points generated by a mob of crooks anxious to conceal their crimes.
There are a lot more of em than just: “when the smoking gun becomes a mushroom cloud” If anyone really feels the need to regurgitate the lullabys that rock the sheeple to sleep, may I suggest LGF as the spot to do it in. They will hoot and holler at lame cliches such as that. Whereas we tend to just look the other way and hope that the person will stop showing him/herself to be such a goddamned idiot.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Feb 9 2006 7:00 utc | 26

Well argued Malooga.
This quote resonates, “The culture and ideology fostered in this globalization project…tend to weaken any sense of community helpful to civic life.”
This is becoming clear to me too, the obfuscation process attempts to distract us from the important issues. Our annie is particularly sensitive and responsive to these oppositional tactics.

Posted by: jonku | Feb 9 2006 7:22 utc | 27

Just to answer one of your questions, Debs:
“Does anyone know if the publishers of the New York Press are normally so assiduous in protecting Islam from denigration?”
When I lived in NYC, I first read the free Village Voice, mostly for tips on entertainment. But, diligent, I also read the very long featured political articles, mostly sexual politics at the time in the late 80s, and Nat Hentoff’s newspaper critiques that predated blogs.
Then I discovered the New York Press, with its Baltimorean editor, a right winger it turns out, and a featured left-wing and right-wing columnist, Christopher Caldwell, as well as a cast of local New York interns and eventually Matt Taibbi.
For the 15 or so years I read it, the NY Press was a great paper, great letters section, great debates about small weekly presses in the US, even if Russ (the editor) was often shown in a bad light in terms of his business relationships with other cities’ papers.
Anyway, he sold the paper a year or two ago and no longer has any relationship with it. They fired Matt Taibbi over his column, with front page of the tabloid, about the incumbent death of the last pope.
As I’ve moved away and not read the thing in a few years, I’m not so sure about Jim Knipfel and the other writers that may have stayed with the paper.
At any rate, this was once a fearless paper that fell into corporate hands and the fact that it refused to publish said cartoons is certainly no big deal. If anyone can add or correct my report please do so.

Posted by: jonku | Feb 9 2006 7:36 utc | 28

Below is a press record on the controversy, drawn from the Foreign Broadcast Information Service, a translation service of the CIA that is later released under various commercial auspices, including BBC World Monitoring and World News Connection.
Am I the only one who noted that Juan Cole took his timeline uncritically from the CIA?

Posted by: Malooga | Feb 9 2006 8:05 utc | 29

@citizen:

But this is preparation for murder. What will we gain by defending it?

How about the satisfaction of knowing that we, at least, did not rise to the bait? The neocons believe that they have the world in a cleft stick right now, regardless of whether or not this whole incident was precipitated by agents provocateurs — the two most obvious courses of action both provide them with obvious benefits. (Defend the right of Islam to avoid blasphemous criticism? You can bet we’ll end up regretting that decision almost instantaneously; I’d be very surprised if there isn’t a list being compiled of all Muslims who are criticising Christians and Jews right now. And, of course, if we don’t offer a defense based on religion there isn’t much that can be said on the issue, since Islam is a religious, rather than an ethnic, categorization.) Both choices are bad. But I would prefer the one that doesn’t actively hand even more power over to the right or chip away at freedom of speech. To paraphrase Tom Holt: limiting freedom in the name of religion is like getting into a fistfight with a 7-foot tall policement made entirely out of dung — even if you win, you’ll come to wish you hadn’t started.

Should you or I expect to be safe when the murderers need their next adventure?

No, but then we aren’t anyway. By now, they probably have enough evidence of our dissent to target us. We are still here because we are too small fish to warrant their interest, and their power has not yet been consolidated to the point where they can afford to do just anything. Every dark cloud has a silver lining — the economic collapse everyone is expecting could potentially topple the right wing in a way that nothing else could. (Then again, it could cement their rule. Disasters are unpredictable.)

Posted by: The Truth Gets Vicious When You Corner It | Feb 9 2006 9:37 utc | 30

@Malooga:

Hamza, it has been noted, would be guilty as an accesory to murder if his incitements lead anyone to be killed. But if nobody is killed, then I suppose only hate speech laws would be in effect. Is anyone familiar with British Hate Laws and the penalties they carry, and was Hamdi’s sentence within guidelines?

Telling other people to kill some third party probably falls under older laws than that, and he seems to have done that.

Second point: Let’s not get carried away comparing what Jylland-Posten did and what we allow on this blog. This is a private space, not tasked with a public responsibility. The Danish paper was. There is no similarity.

Really? Maybe I’m too used to thinking of newspapers as businesses. In the U.S., as many people had forgotten until the last couple of decades, a reporter or editor is nobody particularly special. The only guarantee of the general veracity (beyond actual libel) of a newspaper was the demand for truth by the readers, and these days just about everybody — myself included, I must admit — has gotten into the habit of avoiding unpleasant truths. In the U.S. you can basically take it for granted that a newspaper which is genuinely concerned with the truth is very small and probably on the brink of being bought out by someone else. I had assumed that European newspapers were run on similar lines — in fact, I have reason to believe that British papers are pretty much as bad as our press — but perhaps the Dutch take things more seriously?

Posted by: The Truth Gets Vicious When You Corner It | Feb 9 2006 9:52 utc | 31

Bush’s approach is insane. It serves no legitimate purpose. There is no reason for it.
Why is it happening?

Paul Craig Roberts seems to actually be asking a question in this article. No hint that the question is rhetorical.
Anyway, I’m still not convinced that anything much will happen real soon. First, we need reports of military redeployments, then we need some more effective propaganda. We already had Time magazine and babies getting thown out of humidicribs. This time also there has to be something a bit more gut-wrenching than a couple of Danish embassies getting torched. No US embassy in Tehran to be stormed. Maybe they’ll have to go back to the old Havana Harbour trick.

Posted by: DM | Feb 9 2006 10:13 utc | 32

@DM:

But they could also be contemplating the use of nuclear weapons — requires no particular troop strength, and if you merely want to destroy the country instead of rule it afterwards, there’s no need to worry about the long-term effects. Bush thinks he’s on a mission from God; if he believes himself likely to be impeached, he may decide to take out Iran while he has the chance. Never mind that it would probably set off a global nuclear war; the little voice in Bush’s head wills it.

Posted by: The Truth Gets Vicious When You Corner It | Feb 9 2006 10:50 utc | 33

“Gee, you’re a midget!,” that is a term of endearment! especially at a family gathering. i couldn’t hold back a chuckle w/your description of yourself, sounds exactly like my ex. oh, never mind.
jonku, thank you for noticing.
that particular phrase you reference absolutely stood out for me, hard to mince noam. (thanks malooga)
i was reading billmons grand delusion thread
What gives Straussian thought its special flavor – a bitter blend of hypocrisy and cynicism – is the fact that Strauss himself didn’t believe in the eternal “truths” he championed. He was a nihilist, in other words – but one who believed only the philosophical elite could be trusted to indulge in such a dangerous vice. In exchange for this privilege, the elite has a special obligation to uphold the “noble lies” the ignorant masses must live by if society is to survive.
he quotes drury “

Strauss . . . does not disagree with Marx that religion is the opium of the masses, he just thinks that people need their opium.
The ridicule of the Straussians in the academy is connected to their unquestioning devotion to a set of ideas that they cannot or will not defend except to those who are already converted . . . For they do not want their ideas discussed openly or even known to anyone outside the charmed circle of initiates.


i guess what i’m getting at is by rose’s ‘spoonfeeding religious opium’ (a bad batch) he fostered a weakening in our cultures and sense of community.
using the press as protection has a familiar ring to it tho differing from the miller/libby/plame . it’s easy to be caught off guard , i suppose we should be used to it by now, the way they operate.
anyway, back to billmon

“The risk, then, is that by unleashing the forces of religious populism to save America from the inevitable consequences of liberal nihilism, the Straussians conceivably could end up assisting the very catastrophe they claim they’re trying to avoid.
And wouldn’t that be ironic.

yeah, i’d say it would

Posted by: annie | Feb 9 2006 11:34 utc | 34

.. yea. Likely it will be many years before we really have any inkling of the sort of back-room wrangling that may be going on. But down this particular rabbit-hole I wouldn’t be too surprised by anything.
Wonder what the chances are of some sort of military coup if your Dr Strangelove scenario starts to look likely?
Hey – where’s Pat?

Posted by: DM | Feb 9 2006 11:46 utc | 35

I’m in the MIHOP camp. There’s no way I’d buy into the fires collapsed WTC7 fairytale.
Of course, if us tin-foil-hatter MIHOP/LIHOP nuts are not certifiable, then there is no ‘going back’ — the Dr Strangelove stuff might be inevitable.
Anyone else comment on the latest Wayne Madsen stuff? These stories just wont go away, will they?

February 8, 2006 — WMR previously reported on the activities of a group of some 120 Israeli “art students” in the United States prior to the 9-11 attacks. At least a year before the attacks, the art students caught the attention of agents of the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA), who prepared a lengthy report of their activities in June 2001. The DEA report specifically concluded that the Israelis may have had “ties to an Islamic fundamentalist group.” That group turned out to be Al Qaeda. The DEA report was supplemented by reports from agents of the Marshal’s Service, Environmental Protection Agency, and local police departments.
WMR’s report on the suspicious activities of Israeli art students and movers concludes that these individuals were involved in surveillance of the 9-11 hijackers in locations such as Hollywood, Florida; Dallas-Fort Worth, Texas; Venice, Florida; Laurel, Maryland; San Diego, California; and Jersey City and Paterson, New Jersey.
Israeli intelligence veteran confirms that Israeli art students who shadowed 9-11 hijackers were part of a major Mossad intelligence operation
WMR can now report that a long-serving member of the Israeli intelligence service, Mossad, has confirmed that the Israeli art students were, in fact, part of a major Israeli intelligence operation and that they were conducting surveillance of the activities of the 9-11 hijackers. They also worked with the Israeli Urban Moving System employees in New Jersey who were seen in at least two Jersey City locations — Liberty State Park and The Doric apartment building — celebrating the impact of the first plane into the World Trade Center.
The Israelis at Liberty State Park were dressed in Arab-style clothing when they were witnessed celebrating the first attack. The FBI later confiscated a videotape they filmed of the first attack. All the Israeli art students and movers who were detained, arrested, or jailed were freed and allowed to return to Israel. The Israeli movers in New Jersey were freed after intense pressure was brought on the Bush administration by former New York Mayor Rudolph Giuliani. After the news of the Israeli art students and their intelligence ring was reported by the AP and other media outlets, including Fox News, the Israeli embassy in Washington and The Washington Post called the story an “urban myth.” It is also of note that John Miller, the ABC News reporter who covered the Israeli movers story for 20/20 and concluded that the movers were not involved in the 9-11 attacks, is now the spokesman for the FBI. WMR can also report that there are a number of FBI agents, some veterans of the New York-New Jersey Joint Terrorism Task Force, who know about the Israeli role in surveillance of the 9-11 hijackers but have been “gagged” by senior levels of the FBI not to talk about what they know.

Posted by: DM | Feb 9 2006 12:34 utc | 36

@DM
Loose Change.
This film shows direct connection between the attacks of September 11, 2001 and the United States government.
I said it then, I say it now, I believe some faction of our own gov, (pnac)? along w/the Mossad perpetrated 911.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Feb 9 2006 12:45 utc | 37

Conservatives must raise the ever-relevant question: Cui bono? Who would benefit from a U.S. war with Iran? Who is prodding us into it? Are they looking out for America first?
Hmm – nuclear war or treason trials ?

Posted by: DM | Feb 9 2006 13:02 utc | 38

911 Loose Change 2nd watch it free…

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Feb 9 2006 13:16 utc | 39

Stirling Newberry understands what is happening. “In short, if anyone, anywhere in the west says anything at any time which can be used to inspire riots, the oilarchy will use it.” http://www.bopnews.com/

Posted by: JR | Feb 9 2006 14:29 utc | 40

@DM- i had read the madsen piece on the israeli “art students” yesterday w/ interest, having followed the exposure of the DEA rpt previously. at the place where i work, there was a problem w/ them coming into the bldg w/o authorization & peddling their art to employees on different floors, which resulted in a corporate memo that any suspicious visitors were to be reported immed. i never encountered any of them personally, & besides, there was no reason to suspect anything more sinister at the time. wondering if more definitive evidence will come out, rather than just madsen quoting an anon intel agent.

Posted by: b real | Feb 9 2006 15:53 utc | 41

It’s only a freedom of speech issue if those other cartoons were not allowed because of governmental interference.
By your definition there was no freedom of speach issue at all, because at no time has the Jesus or the Muhammed-pictures been forbidden in Denmark, or in any of the papers that republished them. As far as I know.
Then there was no freedom of speach issue at any time, just lying right-wing papers claiming so.

Posted by: A swedish kind of death | Feb 9 2006 15:53 utc | 42

The free speech issue arose when 11 ambassadors – acting at the instructions of their governments – wrote the Danish prime minister to demand that Denmark take action to suppress the paper and prosecute it criminally. The Danish prime minister politely told the 11 ambassadors to mind their own fucking business. You don’t think a demand to suppress a newspaper raises a free speech issue?

Posted by: JR | Feb 9 2006 17:00 utc | 43

I do think cartoonadrama is very important, because these are the events, mechanisms, processes, that gradually indoctrinate Western (and in this case, particularly European) attitudes towards Muslims, and stealthily create an atmosphere of suspicion, forge prejudice, and finally lead to scapegoating.
Many Eu countries have what they see as being an ‘immigrant’ problem. Too many of them, too expensive, not integrated enough, is the thinking. France is a good example, as everyone knows about the riots. Of course those immigrants were 2nd, 3rd. generation, French Nationals (for the most part). So, that debate is in public properly framed in terms of poverty, education, prejudice, territorial organisation. Elsewhere, however, it is squarely explained by the ethnic/religious/national origins of individuals, as belonging to certain groups. See Denmark, now also discussed in the world press (and blogs.)
In the EU, anti-immigrant attitudes are an outcome of fears that are comprehensible, I was almost going to write ‘rational’:
a) fear of more uncontrolled immigration in a globalised world,
b) envy of high-level immigrants who ‘steal’ top jobs, impose consumer rip offs (say), a dominant language (generally English, sometimes German), new, foreign customs;
c) a perceived ‘shrinking’ of the economy, leading to dashed expectations for the future, or future generations, which immediately raises the question of how much tax is paid, where the tax money is going, and so on
d) the loss of cherished customs, places, habits, ways of doing, easily ascribed to the fact that now the population is ‘mixed’, and also (in a minor key), that it is now too large – pollution, use of ressources, available space, poor Gvmt. policy, etc.
All these beefs and fears, rational or not, are at heart what is loosely labelled “anti globalisation” (anti-capitalist in some places, but not often) attitudes.
— Never mind that Adalbert the grandson has a villa with pool in Europe because he manages a factory in the Ivory Coast – that is just normal! — Hah!
I’m very much afraid that the stew of preoccupations will easily — easily! — be flipped to scape-goating a particular group. That will focus people’s attention, give them a target, suggest a policy, solutions, etc.
The Long War will be fought.

Posted by: Noisette | Feb 9 2006 18:20 utc | 44

@Truth Vicious

But this is preparation for murder. What will we gain by defending it?
How about the satisfaction of knowing that we, at least, did not rise to the bait?
[snip]
Both choices are bad. But I would prefer the one that doesn’t actively hand even more power over to the right or chip away at freedom of speech.

I gather you’re not really serious about arguing this simply for satisfaction. Rather, the latter argument about not handing power over to the religious right is what you come across to me as caring about. If so, we’re pretty close in motivation.
But even if you or I work to limit religious usurpation of politics, can’t we simultaneously avoid being patsies? When Daniel Pipes, Francis Fukuyama and their epigones try to boogie-man me about Islam and clashes of civilization, their slimy DNA trail evidences that this is the same fork-tongued tribe of death-dripping soothsayers we already know enough about to reject. We cannot claim to be ignorant that these guys were ready to nuke half the world for the thought crime of being born under a communist government. They smell demons because they reek of hell. This is their line, and I am asking you about how you avoid collaborating with this line of manipulation:
Your enemy is not your uncle talking about how ‘freeing’ it is to teach his nephews to shoot heathen Muslims in their own mosques. It is the relatives of all those ‘heathen Muslims’ standing over their screaming for him and his family to STFU, or else. Now those guys are violent.

Posted by: citizen | Feb 9 2006 18:47 utc | 45

fox news did a 2 or 3 part series in ’01 about the israeli art students, it’s old news

Fox News has learned that one group of Israelis, spotted in North Carolina recently, is suspected of keeping an apartment in California to spy on a group of Arabs who the United States is also investigating for links to terrorism. Numerous classified documents obtained by Fox News indicate that even prior to Sept. 11, as many as 140 other Israelis had been detained or arrested in a secretive and sprawling investigation into suspected espionage by Israelis in the United States.
The first part of the investigation focuses on Israelis who say they are art students from the University of Jerusalem and Bazala Academy. They repeatedly made contact with U.S. government personnel, the report says, by saying they wanted to sell cheap art or handiwork.
Documents say they, “targeted and penetrated military bases.” The DEA, FBI and dozens of government facilities, and even secret offices and unlisted private homes of law enforcement and intelligence personnel. The majority of those questioned, “stated they served in military intelligence, electronic surveillance intercept and or explosive ordinance units.”

Posted by: annie | Feb 9 2006 21:11 utc | 46

I have to admit to becoming rather bored with an issue which posed some interesting philosophical questions initially, but seems to have come down to Europeans right to express themselves as they wish, against Muslims obligation to bottle up their feelings.
As has been said in here interminably, no one questioned the ‘right’ or the legality of a stupid fascist Dane to publish his humorless takes on Islam, but they did debate whether it was ethically acceptable in the current climate to do so.
But some of those who support the right of cartoonists to publish what they want, appear to deny ambassadors from nations offended by this humorless attempt at denigration of anothers ethos, the right to respond by writing to the Prime Minister of Denmark.
Even worse they deny the ambassadors the right to point out the likely consequences of the publication of these cartoons.
Those probable consequences were that unless the Danish government is seen to disassociate themselves and the Danish culture from these libels in the strongest possible terms, Muslims would exercise their right to express their offense.
The Danes chose not to, which was their right, but was about as stupid as the original publication was. This in turn meant that Muslims around the world expressed their outrage which was also their right.
Deaths occured when the repressive army of occupation in Afghanistan tried to stop Muslims’ right to free speech. Free speech will always include destruction of property.
Material ‘property’ is nothing in the wider scheme of things.
If western cultures could get over their dependance on objects as an expression of themselves, this would be a far more stable and content tiny drop in the ocean of the universe.
Property is only bits of matter.
That can be replaced effortlessly, especially when the object is owned by one society in toto, and will in all likelihood, be replaced by the society deemed to have damaged it.
Once angry Muslims expressed themselves, and I ought to point out that the majority did this in a peaceful and non-confrontational way, Muslims were then told that the trouble only came about because Muslims had been informed of what happened.
In other words; the correct response as far as the west was concerned, would have been to supress news of the ‘Danish expression of free speech’ in Muslim countries. ie deny Muslims the right to free speech.
I realise some will carry on like pork chops about Muslim countries refusing to protect the Embassies and thereby breaching the Vienna conventions. Well apart from many of these people being the same ones who don’t have a problem with Geneva conventions being breached, these people need to consider that the arcane rules of the Vienna convention were deliberately constructed by the Imperial nations of Europe to further their ends.
These ‘conventions’ are not impartial, they favour the powerful against the powerless.
How many spies does the US, UK, Germany France and Denmark etc run out of their ME embassies? Somehow despite continual scandals, followed by complaints by the offended country, this bullshit continues.
Embassy ‘rules’ were also based upon the conventions that European elites use to repress while still making sure their ‘shit don’t stink’.
ME cultures have always been more likely to call a spade a spade, so if some country has just ripped off a few billion dollars of their money and they are silly enough to still be hanging around trying to help themselves to more, ME nations are likely to take the ones hanging around hostage, until the thieves ante up with the loot they stole.
That is exactly what happened with the Iranian US argument all those years ago and is why the US doesn’t keep a embassy in Tehran. The US wants to keep ripping off Iran but realises that the Iranians won’t sign up to ‘the smile while you’re being screwed up the ass’ ethos that fat white men try and force on the rest of the planet.
There are a zillion examples dating back to the late 18th century of Imperial nations using the excuse of some sort of ‘offence’ brought about by a nation whose wealth they had their piggy little eyes upon, caused their diplomats or embassy, to invade the country then steal it’s wealth.
So anyone who believes that the Danes have a ‘right’ to publish and libel any other culture/religion they choose, must also allow the right of people of the abused culture/religion to express themselves as well.
In other words there is no discussion other than pointing out the arrant stupidity of the Danes, which is sorta where we’ve been for a week.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Feb 9 2006 21:19 utc | 47

whoops, i guess it was a 4 part series
here’s more Five Israelis were seen filming as jet liners ploughed into the Twin Towers on September 11, 2001 …
if you google israeli art students, 9/11 there is a wealth of info

Posted by: annie | Feb 9 2006 21:20 utc | 48

So anyone who believes that the Danes have a ‘right’ to publish and libel any other culture/religion they choose, must also allow the right of people of the abused culture/religion to express themselves as well.
Well done, Debs.
First off, everyone should listen to Democracy Now today. Amy really nails this topic and provides additional information which I was unaware of.
Secondly, I got a delivery of heating oil today from a young guy, 27-30 yrs. old, and right off the bat he goes, “What about those muslims?”
So I bit my tongue–took my foot off the gas and pressed down hard on the brake and let the revs slow down a bit, so to say–and tossed it back at him, “What about them?”
“What a bunch of nutcakes,” he said. “I’m sick of hearing their whining. Can’t they shut up? Why don’t we just nuke the whole country and wipe the Iranians (a bit of mental conflation, or confusion going on here) off the map.”
So I explained a bit about the Official Hate and how we always need an enemy in this country. “It’s not their whining you are hearing; it’s the media you are listening to that’s whining about them.”
Consternation.
“It sounds easy to just bomb them off the map, but then the price of oil would go up. Look what I’m paying here, $2.00 a gallon; if we bombed Iran that might go up to $4.00 a gallon. We might slip into a recession. You might lose your job. You’re just a working guy. You should identify with working people, not the desires of big oil companies.”
“But it is so unfair,” he says, “they are shooting at us from inside their mosques, and we’re not allowed to shoot back. (It’s obvious that it is all one big heathen mosh pit over there, in his mind.)
“Don’t you remember when we shot a guy dead inside a mosque, and they played it right on TV?” I replied. “Anyway, we have helicopters and planes; if they shoot at us, we just bomb them to bits, but that is a little extreme, so they don’t cover that a lot over here.”
“In any event, we invaded them, claiming they had WMD, and they didn’t have any. If someone invaded us, wouldn’t you fight back?”
He held back an involuntary nod.
“Besides,” I continued, “we are trying to take control of their oil.”
“But, we’re not getting their oil”, he avered. “It’s the Russians and Chinese that are getting the contracts.”
“Well, it seems we screwed up. Maybe this war stuff is not so easy,” I said, as he frowned.
“Bush should just bomb them all, and the Syrians too. But he’s too soft on them all,” he dismissed. Having let loose, his brow unfurrowed. Situation solved.
“I know that sounds easy when you hear it on the radio,” I rebutted, “but it isn’t. We live in an interconnected world, and we would make a lot of enemies if we did that. China might stop buying our bonds and you wouldn’t be able to afford a house anymore. Maybe they would stop selling us all their shit and we wouldn’t have anything. Remember, we don’t make anything anymore. So we need to get along with others.”
Feeling cornered by common sense, he changed the subject. “I got a friend who just came back from Iraq and he’s all fucked up. He’s got PTSD and stuff.”
“Now you’re talking,” I took up the thread. “That’s what we should be caring about. Do you know, we sent more than 600,000 soldiers over to Iraq for Desert Storm and over half have now filed claims for disability. We’ve sent over a million GI’s over this time. In five to ten years we’re going to have a half million disabled vets wandering around the country, and the VA can’t handle them. We should start thinking about taking care of our own.”
This was easier sledding. “I had a friend who went over for Desert Storm and he got sick from the weapons, and died,” he said.
“That Depleted Uranium is pretty nasty stuff,” I replied. “And it never goes away. And we keep using more and more of it; it’s crazy.”
He was with me on this. I continued, “Meanwhile, my neighbor, he fought in WWII, he was in D-Day, and he can’t get any more help from the VA because they are so overloaded.”
He agreed and then went off talking about the stories he has heard about WWII from customers during his deliveries.
“That was some war,” I agreed. I didn’t have the heart to tell me the truth about that one too.
All in all, it went pretty good. I could have made some better points. But I didn’t hammer him, and I suceeded in planting the seeds of doubt in his mind.
This kind of dialogue is not easy. But I think it is very important. Working on people one-by-one as you meet them in everyday life. I used to be too scared to air my views in public. And, if I did, I would get so attached to my version of the facts that I would end up blowing my top. Now I understand that the best you can do is sow some doubt, puncture a few of their truths, slip in some common sense, defuse the Official Hate, and point out that their priorities are not necessarily the same as Bush’s, or the government’s. That’s really pretty good for one session. Then you have to leave them hanging, before they are overwhelmed, so that you can get them back for another session.
All in all, it’s like being a Jehovah’s Witness, except that you don’t have to go door-to-door arguing culled biblical literalisms. In reality you have a much better case then they do. You just have to do it.

Posted by: Malooga | Feb 9 2006 22:51 utc | 49

speaking of PTSD my friend stoy has been working w/ ePluribus Media, last i heard he was working on this story. check out part 1 of the new diary on kos, and give him a recommend. it’s excellent coverage.

Posted by: annie | Feb 9 2006 23:10 utc | 50

@citizen:

How do I refute that argument? Well, there are two parts to my answer, which you could label the theoretical and the practical. The theoretical part is that if the Muslims are indeed my enemies, it doesn’t mean right-wingers are on my side, it just means that I have two enemies. As for the practical: where I live, which is up north near a big city, right-wingers tend to expect leftists to be timid and retiring. So when they say something provoking, I find it they are much more likely to pay attention to what I say if I get good and angry in a visible fashion. Not in a “talking a million words per minute, refuting every last argument” way (which is how I tend to do things), because they dismiss that as hysteria, but I just pick whatever lie they have spouted which is easiest to argue and yell at them about it. I don’t know whether it would work elsewhere, but around here it gets them thinking much more effectively than any other strategy I’ve tried. I think maybe the local right-wingers can’t process an argument unless it’s presented in Rush Limbaugh style.

Posted by: The Truth Gets Vicious When You Corner It | Feb 10 2006 6:04 utc | 51

@ Malooga (how many ooga’s by the way?)
Very good advice. It is difficult to judge how much you can put on them at one time. You gotta go real slow like, because you are really up against an entire lifetime of manufactured prejudices and dis-information.
It really helps if you are not partisan. That will keep the others from automatically dismissing you by placing you in the enemy camp.

Posted by: Anonymous | Feb 10 2006 7:35 utc | 52

As many as you like.

Posted by: Malooga | Feb 10 2006 7:40 utc | 53

sorry, me above
Would any posters here with knowledge of dates of Islamic holidays care to confirm that;
Ramadan started early October last year? Shortly after the initial publication of the Danish cartoons….
Ashura is celebrated now? Shortly after the second publication of the Danish cartoons….
probably tinfoil hat stuff but odd nonetheless.

Posted by: dan of steele | Feb 10 2006 7:44 utc | 54

One thing I’d add is that, particularly with men, their viewpoint is often drivin by an insecurity or fear that they then can posture toughness and resolve, in a mock demonstration. Its a kind of vigilante, lets join up a posse thing that is echoed in “your either with us or against us”. Its funny that these guys, the supposed rugged individualists cowboys are the first ones upon encountering a threat — to wet their pants and go running for a mob to join for protection. Unless of course, that mob might be the armed forces, you know, where the might actually have to stop posturing and actually do something. Its really pretty pathetic that so many men fall for this kind of tribal language and do the dance, especially when the orchestra is made up of only their own kind. Although it is amusing pointing this all out to them.

Posted by: anna missed | Feb 10 2006 8:01 utc | 55

Ashura was today, according to the news. As for Ramadan, it is in the fall I think. So October sounds about right, maybe a bit earlier. >google< Wikipedia: 1427 AH – First day: September 24, 2006; last day: October 23, 2006

Posted by: jonku | Feb 10 2006 8:59 utc | 56

anna missed, I was just thinking about this too. Where are our sources of refuge when we all live apart from our collegial peers, our buddies. I’m not saying that we need them, but it’s always nice to point someone in trouble to where they can find help.
Is it the cops we turn to, or our neighbours? Or are we self-reliant. It is a big question that leads to thinking about how to make our idea of society work at all. Voting is a big deal but there is little information that persuades people to vote for what we (or I) see as right.
One of the reasons I like this crowd, the drinks are cheap and the company is good, it makes you think.

Posted by: jonku | Feb 10 2006 9:10 utc | 57

Oops, that was this coming Ramadan.
Last year’s, according to Wikipedia:
1426 AH – First day: October 4, 2005; last day: November 2, 2005

Posted by: jonku | Feb 10 2006 9:19 utc | 58

An Egyptian newspaper printed the cartoons. In October. During Ramadan.
http://egyptiansandmonkey.blogspot.com/2006/02/boycott-egypt.html
No riots then.
So how much of this is real outrage, and how much is whipped up by cynical governments who needed a distraction?

Posted by: JR | Feb 10 2006 15:25 utc | 59

So how much of this is real outrage, and how much is whipped up by cynical governments who needed a distraction?
Maybe not governments, but some interest groups for sure:
Swedish rightists publish cartoons

The far right-wing Swedish Democrats, who unlike a similar party in neighbouring Denmark where the cartoon row began are too small to have a seat in parliament, invited readers to send in their own cartoons for publishing with the Danish cartoons.

Posted by: b | Feb 10 2006 16:22 utc | 60

dammit, I hate being so ignorant. Al Fagr has a website but I can’t read Arabic. Would someone who does please take a look and see if there is any mention of these cartoons as well as the context.
that sandmonkey site seems to have a lot of hatred and is quite proud to link to LGF.
sorry JR, just want to know more.

Posted by: dan of steele | Feb 10 2006 16:56 utc | 61

Cartoons removed after calls from the swedish
security police (in swedish).

That is the continuation of the far right-wing Swedish Democrats story. After their internet-provider had been talked to by the security police their web-site went down. And after the security police had a chat with the party they decided to run the site without cartoons and discontinued their invitation for more cartoons. Now they have been allowed up on the internet again.
I am not surprised. As I have been arguing (or trying to argue) from the get-go, in reality unlimited freedom of press might be an ideal but it is hard to find in this world. Economic or political power always figures in when you are talking about the press. And here we have had interests on both sides for a nice clash of civilizations. Nothing like a good enemy to shore up support.

Posted by: A swedish kind of death | Feb 10 2006 17:27 utc | 62

“The Egyptian newspaper Al Fagr on Oct. 17 published six of the 12 Muhammad cartoons printed by Jyllands-Posten on Sept. 30, Danish state-owned broadcaster Danmarks Radio reported yesterday, citing Denmark’s ambassador in Egypt Bjarne Soerensen.”
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000085&sid=a8hEmi2ja5cg&refer=europe

Posted by: JR | Feb 10 2006 17:38 utc | 63

Rahul Mahajan has a good take on freedom of the press.

Posted by: Malooga | Feb 10 2006 19:21 utc | 64

The Muslim community was directly and deliberately provoked in a small minded, sneaky, mean way.
It reacted on a symbolic level as well – demos, flag burning. Of course, the reactions may have been provoked by interested parties, and may even have been exagerated by the TV and press, but never mind that now.
That cartoons were used was no accident. The point was to provoke, in the West, the expected counter reaction, outrage and incredulity and the noting of a cultural divide.
That Western reaction could not target Muslims directly but required a channel, a topic or issue of some perceived importance that was about custom, or belief, etc. and not about people directly, permitting the mainstream to play footsie, pundits to pontificate, and the ‘left’ to blame Danish newspapers. That issue is Free Speech.
Its as if Mr. A threw down a pink glove in front of Mr B. Then, when Mr. B somehow refuses the duel, objects to the challenge as inappropriate, or doesn’t understand the act and its symbolics very well, and makes a big deal about the fact that the glove was pink –
Mr A. makes fun of him for objecting to pink gloves! And accuses him of anti-gay prejudice, cultural backwardness, and so on.
Don’t forget, muslim fundamentalists – jihadists – were blamed for 9/11. Millions of muslims worlwide accepted that as a stain. After 9/11, there were vigils of sympathy in many places – the biggest was in Teheran. (From memory of EU papers.) It was very painful. The ‘bad apples’ argument has less (or even no) relevance in communities that are tightly tied, with members responsible for their kin and their kind. Their own.
Millions of others could not believe the official scenario, either because of gut feelings (e.g. like, good Catholics priests don’t rape small boys) or because they had some understanding of 9/11. They soon noted that their Gvmts. rolled over and accepted the US scenario.
So, it had to be accepted, publically. It had to be dealt with. Not in public, but in homes, in private discussions, in workers meetings, girlie kaffe klatsch, offices, mosques.
But enough is enough. No more false blame, no more insults, nothing more, will be accepted.
Add to that, powerless people can object to trivia – clothes, words, cartoons, etc. – but not to the system.

Posted by: Noisette | Feb 11 2006 14:48 utc | 65

Noisette,
I hope you never get pissed and leave us. You have a wonder way of cutting thru the crap and getting right to the core of the discussion. And you do it in a way that simple people like me can understand.
thanks

Posted by: dan of steele | Feb 11 2006 17:01 utc | 66

What’s to tolerate?
There are many reports and comments on Israel’s proposed building of a Museum of Tolerance on Muslim graves in Jerusalem. Donald MacIntyre reports on it in the Independent here and Meron Benvenisti comments in Ha’aretz thus:

The initiators of the white elephant called the Museum of Tolerance declared that they do not deal with Holocaust-related issues and will not deal with issues relating to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
The first statement was meant to ensure Yad Vashem’s monopoly on Holocaust issues. The meaning of the second statement is now transpiring: The tolerance preachers couldn’t care less that they are building on a foundation of generations of Muslim skeletons. After all, they promised not to deal with the local conflict. Let Moria, the company owned by the reunited city of Jerusalem, deal with skeleton matters. After almost 40 years of sanctimoniousness and double standards, City Hall should know how to cover up the hypocrisy of building a museum of tolerance on – of all places – a desecrated Muslim cemetery.

So what are the racist war criminals of the State of Israel calling on us to tolerate?

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Feb 11 2006 17:39 utc | 67

religious fundamentalism is fueled by fear. fear from policital/cultural/economic insecurity. fear of those outside of a narrowing cultural/religious identity. its flames are fanned by the reinforcement of negative identities (stereotypes). division. us. them. me. not me. divisive culture wars predicated on received perceptions. the manipulation of symbols & semiotics largely working on recipients at a level below that of conscious reason or intellectual reflection. (very similar in that to religion itself.) deviations from the dominator culture must be punished. they are perceived as threats to freedom, morals & norms, truth & order. there is only one true _____. if deviants do not exist, they must be created. for instance, through projective stereotypes. if thus-far tolerable deviants already do exist, they can be identified, rendered intolerable by the dominator culture and then isolated & dealt w/ either through acculturation or annhilation. or, at a minimum, the appearance & suggestion of such an outcome must be perpetuated to the public. the political management of deviance is an overt process, facilitated through channels of mass-communication. intensification of culture wars. images of insecurity. ramming reductionist, manufactured monocultures into malleable minds. camouflaging imperialist interests & the priorities of power as a conflict over cartoons. seeding hate & fear under the facade of free speech. goading on genocide disguised as debate. fueling fundamentalism fired by fear & outrage. increasing the base while widening the gap between us & them. active efforts to assure antipathy & apathy from those riding in the back of the bus once “justice” is dispensed from 30,000 feet in the form of a atomic subparticles. ‘we had to defend our institutions, ya see.’ including free speech.

Posted by: b real | Feb 11 2006 17:47 utc | 68

So what are the racist war criminals of the State of Israel calling on us to tolerate?
zionism

Posted by: b real | Feb 11 2006 18:30 utc | 69

Noisette, b real,
i detect danceable “riddim” there between those. Nice.

Posted by: anna missed | Feb 11 2006 22:49 utc | 70

Looks like everybody is getting manipulation mileage out of this. From a cost/benefit point of view, WWIII is being produced pretty cheaply.

Posted by: Monolycus | Feb 12 2006 21:58 utc | 71