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January 26, 2006
Hamas Win Makes Peace Possible

Hamas, the islamist Palestinian group, has won a majority of seats in yesterday’s election. The ruling Fatah has declared defeat and Prime Minister Ahmed Curia and his cabinet resigned.

Only 6% of a quarter million Palestinians in east Jerusalem could get to vote. But despite (or because of?) these illegal Israeli restrictions and an undercover U.S. funded Fatah campaign, the voters preferred a disciplined, social responsible, religious movement over a corrupt and chaotic secular party.

Like Uri Avnery I believe this to be a positive development for the Palestinians, the Israeli and the wider Middle East.

Let me explain:

Gaza is a big, isolated concentration camp and the West Bank is divided into Bantustans by zionist colonial settlements. Access to water is under Israeli control. Factually Palestine and Israel are one apartheid regime. Given this, there is no and never can be an economical and/or political viable Palestinian state.   

But there is no sign that the Palestinians will ever give up their struggle or lose international support unless there is a sufficient and just solution. On the other side, it is baloney to expect that the mass-reestablishment of a Jewish population in Palestine after WWII can be rescinded.

Short of an reenactment of a shoa with opposite signs, the only viable longterm solution is a common state which includes Israel, Gaza and the West Bank into one nation and allows equal rights for everybody living there.

The Israeli election system gives undue power to small, radical religious parties, making Israel in effect a jewish religious state and comparable to islamic rule in Iran. Hamas on the other side is calling for a radical islamic state. The natural compromise is secularization of the government, policy and public life.

With Fatah such a solution would have been impossible. What could have been a compromise between a secular Palestinian and a religious state Israel but something ignoring the islamist side? Fatah, and Abbas as a U.S. selected President, would never be able to get their population’s support for such a step. Hamas’ win makes the solution possible.

On the other side a fractured Israeli government may not be able to compromise and keep its standing. In the coming Israeli election, Ohlmert’s Kadima may now have the chance for a decisive victory, eliminating the need for a coalition with religious splinter parties.

What may look as a recipe for an even stronger stand off, a strong Hamas and a unrestrained, unilateral acting Kadima, is a precondition for negotiations that lead to sustainable solutions.

Bury the roadmap, which was ignored by all side anyway. The EU and the Arab league should up the financing of the Palestinian side for the promise of a sustained hudnah (truce). The roadmap partners should threaten serious sanctions for any unilateral steps by the Israeli government that would cement the conflict.

There is no escape from the logic of a one state solution.

South Africa has shown that peaceful solutions to apartheid are possible. To develop, they need pressure from outside and strong leaders with both parties on the inside.

Hamas victory has established one strong party. The other parts of the puzzle may now fall into their place.

Posted by b on January 26, 2006 at 11:48 UTC | Permalink
Comments

b, I hope you are correct that the result of this vote is more likely to bring peace.
The media started early causing problems. The “poll” results broadly reported and so obviously wrong will be used to de-legitimize the result. Already they are reporting that Palestinians voted for the “militant Islamic Group Hamas”.
I choose to believe (perhaps naively) the Palestinians voted for the only group that has provided them any social order, but it will not be reported that way.
The next step may be that they will delay the vote result and announce a month later that Hamas, indeed, only rec’d 49 percent of the vote.
Even their trick of having Marwan Barghouti give a news conference from his jail cell did not work to boost Fatah.
Hopefully you are correct, but there are so many powerful forces working against any real “peace” here.
But you know that and are still positive; I’ll try to be also.

Posted by: ww | Jan 26 2006 12:40 utc | 1

This vote will not bring peace, because peace is not on the Likud agenda (that is until they achieve all their objectives).
What this vote shows (and I am trying desperately to keep my tin foil hat at bay) is that Palestinians are fed up with Fatah and their corruption and they have chosen the ballot box as well as the armelite.
Interesting to see how the US Govt spin this “exercise in democracy”.

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Jan 26 2006 13:12 utc | 2

Interesting post.
“The EU and the Arab league should up the financing of the Palestinian side for the promise of a sustained hudnah (truce)…”
I agree, but it has been reported that the EU would cease or severly curtail funding in the case of a victory by Hamas.
This result will be reported in the US as final confirmation that the Palestinians are savages who will reject peace until Israel is destroyed. And since they are not partners for peace, Israel has every right to do with them as they wish.

Posted by: tgs | Jan 26 2006 13:39 utc | 3

but it has been reported that the EU would cease or severly curtail funding in the case of a victory by Hamas.
That was preelection. Now the quote is

The European Union – the biggest provider of aid to the Palestinian Authority – said it would work with any Palestinian government which renounced violence.
“We are happy to work with any government if that government is prepared to work by peaceful means,” said European External Relations Commissioner Benita Ferrero-Waldner.

There is no argument NOT to work with Hamas as long as the hudnah officially holds.

Posted by: b | Jan 26 2006 13:49 utc | 4

I believe that part of the win by Hamas is directly attributable to the revelation that the US was funding Fatah. I can see that infuriating many Palestinians who were straddling the fence and pushing them over to the Hamas side. It is illegal in the US for any political candidates to take foreign funds for their campaigns, yet here the US is trying to influence a foreign election with money — and not for the first time, certainly. While Hamas was running close to Fatah, I think blowback from the funding put them over the top.

Posted by: Ensley | Jan 26 2006 15:29 utc | 5

Helena Cobban thinks along my line, though not yet on a one state solution.

Actually, I’m a little bit hopeful about the way things may be going. Hamas is a steady, disciplined force that has a strong record on keeping its commitments. (Unlike Fateh.) Okay, so they’re not in “the peace camp” yet. But there have been some signs that could change. And the news from Ehud Olmert in Israel is also fairly encouraging. Olmert has declared himself in favor of negotiations to resolve the conflict, rather than pure, bullying unilateralism as favored by Sharon. He’s said some interesting things about Palestinian rights in Jerusalem. He’s continuing to crack down on the inflammatory extremists amongst the settlers.
Maybe it’s just because I’ve been reviewing the portion of my book dealing with how the negotiations between de Klerk and Mandela got underway, and how those two bitterly battling parties finally made it to a negotiated, politically egalitarian settlement…. But why should such a settlement– whether of two equal states, or of political equality within one state– not emerge in Israel/Palestine right now?
Who would have thought, in the harshly violent days South Africa experienced in the late 1980s, that they could have basic civil peace and a definitive end to the conflict by 1994?
I intend to write a lot more about this… I do think the South Africans– Afrikaners and ANC people– could be hugely helpful right now if they found a hundred ways to share the record of their experiences with both Jewish Israelis and Palestinians in the Holy Land.

Posted by: b | Jan 26 2006 16:59 utc | 6

The logic you assert is convoluted. The West Bank settlemants can all be shut down, the wall can be moved to Israel Proper, border controls along Gaza can be loosened along with removing interference in sea travel and reopening the airport. All these points you assert are against a viable State of Palestine are reversible.
I think the correct solution is the establishment of a State of Palestine starting with the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem, meaning the wall and the settlements have to go. The options should be left open both for the right of return and for the expansion of the State of Palestine if needed. Perhaps after years of economic integration and trust between Israelis and Palestinians a majority on both sides can agree on a merger. You outline a possible scenario leading to this. But I don’t see that at all as being the “only” solution. You seem to describe a case when Israeli religious extremists are forced out by the March election. Shouldn’t the Hamas side force its own religious extremism out as well, such as renouncing its charter to destroy Israel and backing away from Sharia law? I don’t see that happening soon, though I hope it does.

Posted by: Inkan1969 | Jan 26 2006 17:43 utc | 7

@Inkan1969 – can you tell me of one state that has successfully survived with a the land split in two with a not so friendly state inbetween?
The conditions you name will also be harder to meet for the Israeli side than the conditions of a one state two major groups.
—
The official results are in and it seems that nobody tried to manipulate them and everyone accepted them even so their announcement was delayed. Hamas is sending friendly but strong signals.
Haaretz

Final results released on Thursday evening by the Palestinian Central Election Commission showed Hamas won 76 seats in 132-seat parliament, with the Fatah garnering only 43 seats. The thirteen remaining seats went to several smaller parties and independents.
Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh said Thursday he has called Palestinian
Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas, requesting a meeting so that they can decide on the future of the Palestinian government.
“We want to meet with him to consult about the shape of the political partnership that we can achieve,” Haniyeh told reporters as he received well-wishers in the garden of his Gaza home. “Hamas will cooperate with everybody for the benefit of all the people.”
…
Senior Hamas official Mahmoud al-Zahar said Thursday he was ready to maintain a cease-fire with Israel forged last February if Israel does likewise, but that the Islamic group will respond to Israeli attacks.
“If they are going to continue commitment to what is called quietness, then we will continue,” he said in an interview with The Associated Press Television News. “But if not, then I think we will have no option, but to protect our people and our land.”

Posted by: b | Jan 26 2006 19:13 utc | 8

The unfortunate corollary to a democratic election, that all participants eventually get tarred with the brush of opportunism and it’s sleazy offsider in the Pas de Deux of realpolitik, compromise, can only be effected in a Palestinian Authority ruled by Hamas if Israel manages to rein it’s fascist extremists in and stop murdering the Hamas leadership.
Since that is the equivalent of asking a shark in a crowded pool to stop swimming (ie it will cease terrorising the kids, but drown in the process) I reckon we shouldn’t be dropping the pot on that number.
You see if the Hamas leadership remains under threat from the Israeli assassins, that leadership will be in no mood to sell out it’s electors for a handful of the baubles of office.
If Israel doesn’t have Hamas to kick around anymore, then what bogeymen are left? Me old mates in the PFLP? They aren’t much of a target since there are so few of them left that Israel must be down to murdering the first cousin of the brother of the PFLP janitor’s second wife.
Once they’ve all been killed they are not much use to an ambitious Israeli political movement because they won’t even scare little Chana’s budgie.
What a bind eh. If the Israeli’s don’t keep murdering Hamas leaders, it will be too hard to keep the MCT (mutually charged terror) running and if they do, then it becomes impossible to do business with the Palestinians and that means no more bullshit roadmap style ploys designed make creeps such as Sharon and Netanyahu seem positively avuncular while they lever the last teeth out of Palestinian gums.
Murdering politicians, no matter whether they refuse to buy into the bullshit or not, tends to play badly with the sheeple.
Blowback from the ‘voting is god’s answer to decision-making’ meme, that the corporate crims have been pushing for years, means that knocking off one or two Hamas leaders may be understandable, but too many could be regarded as worse than unfortunate.
There are more than 70 of Hamas members of Parliament now so apart from all of the missiles that is going to take, even the US is likely to get a bit antsy as the number gets close to 10, and that’s not even 13% of the job done!
Refusing to talk with them won’t do much because they don’t want to talk to us and, there is the little matter of Sharon refusing to meet with Abbas for the last year or so, which makes it tough. I mean saying you not going to do something you stopped doing already may play all right with the amnesiac sheeple but won’t exactly bring Hamas to it’s knees.
Plus we’re back to the original conundrum. If Israel doesn’t talk with them and make agreements with them how can they betray them?

Posted by: Debs is dead | Jan 26 2006 19:47 utc | 9

@DiD – right on.
Just captured form the Haaretz ticker:

22:53 MK Eitam suggests Israel assassinate Hamas list members (Israel Radio)

Posted by: b | Jan 26 2006 21:37 utc | 10

I saw the headline and thought that finally I was going to find a rational article about Israel in this blog. I have always thought that, just as only Nixon could go to China, only Hams would have the credibility to make peace with Israel.
But then I read one of the most mind numbingly inane columns this side of Buchanon.
1. To say that Hamas is secular while Israel is religious is just weird. The only explanation is having a preconceived notion and not bothering with reality. I think all cute young girls should like older fat guys but I don’t really think I have a shot with Lindsay Lohan. Here is part of the Hamas Charter:
Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah’s promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:
“The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.” (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).
Read the whole thing
Hamas Charter
As opposed to the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Isreal:
THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.
2. Obviously, you agree with the Palestinian treatment of Gays and Lesbians, who have to escape to Israel as the Islamic society seems to feel that persecution and murder of Gays and Lesbians is acceptable.
3. Honor killings must also be something you view as just an interesting idiocyncracity which doesn’t have to be stopped.
4. Comparing Israel with Iran just goes way past the bend. Israel has executed ONE person it has captured in almost 60 years. That of course was Eichmann. How many in Iran? And those in Iran have been executed not for mass murder but for such things as adultery.
5. Obviously, you approve of the Iranian treatment of the Bahai religion. Started in Iran, the center of Bahai is in Israel because that is the only country in the Middle East where they are safe from persecution.
6. MK Eitam is a right wing extremist who has totally rejected Sharon and Olmert. Obviously his comments are not representative of the official Isreali position.
7. The only prediction I’ve ever made here is that I thought Olmert wojuld win the Israeli election in March. Kadima is at 44%, so I’m looking good. The last prediction I saw you make was that Cheney would resign by Christmas. Who is U.S. Vice-President right now?
I understand running against the grain, but we should all try to remember that we are part of the reality based community and when you start saying things that are just silly, you detract from that community.
Joe

Posted by: joe5348 | Jan 27 2006 2:34 utc | 11

“THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.”
Yea, if your head is buried firmly in your ass, you might actually believe Israel comes within a light year of living up to this lofty charter.
“Israel has executed ONE person it has captured in almost 60 years”
Give me a fucking break. Israel routinely murders Palestinians with complete impunity. And not just “terrorists”.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jan 27 2006 3:29 utc | 12

Update on the AIPAC spy ring case

Bush commits US to defence of Israel in face of Iran threat
Okay, someone show me where in the Constitution the President is allowed to take our young men and women and rent them to a foreign government as mercenaries.
Anyone?
Anyone?

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Jan 27 2006 4:00 utc | 13

C’mon Uncle – you know the cons-ti-tution is just a bit of paper.

Posted by: DM | Jan 27 2006 4:21 utc | 14

No name,
Ok, who’s closer? At least Israel’s Proclamation sets out a goal. And again, who’s closer to that goal?
Joe

Posted by: joe5348 | Jan 27 2006 4:31 utc | 15

Uncle $cam, it’s in the same paragraph that says the US has to provide cradle-to-grave health care for another country and yet not for it’s own citizens who are picking up the tab.
Fatah had become like an old Ford Fairlane on blocks. Still a car, but taking up space and not going anywhere anymore. The word that comes to mind is “stagnation.” Time for a change. As for whether Hamas will do any better at making peace and repairing Palestine’s economy remains to be seen. But I do admit I am enjoying everyone jumping up and down in shock.

Posted by: Ensley | Jan 27 2006 4:41 utc | 16

Every time something the media deems to be ‘momentous’ in the ME particularly if it concerns Israel however tenuously and lets face it the Israeli interest in the Palestinian election is pretty tenuous, the weirdos, dingbats and trolls come out.
I’m not going to say much about the alleged Hamas charter except to say the few places I could find it referenced were US based “pro-peace” (two state solution peace only please) web-sites.
Until I see the Hamas Charter on a Hamas site, for me it will have all the authenticity of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
Of course it may be that some in Hamas or Hamas acting officially as a group did write it. If that is demonstrated then I will afford it the time and energy to study it. Until then is is just as likely to be one more example of Joe5348’s intellectual dishonesty.
The blather about gays and lesbians is the typically dishonest way that the lickspittles of us/israeli colonialism skate past problematic issues. I haven’t seen any of the regular contributors of this blog talk one way or the other about the values that palestinians hold dear. That has never been the issue and isn’t the issue now. The issue is the right of all Palestinians to live in all of their homeland and for those Palestinians who have suffered great damage at the hands of the colonisers to receive just compensation.
Gays and lesbians indeed. If one were to follow Joe100n33 logic; the god botherers in redneck middle amerika must support state subsidised abortion for all who request it. That is one of many under the line expenses that his/her tithes end up paying for.
I wonder if nice Mr Asshole the Warcrim has bothered to let the fundie donors in the US know about that?

Posted by: Debs is dead | Jan 27 2006 5:50 utc | 17


I intend to write a lot more about this… I do think the South Africans– Afrikaners and ANC people– could be hugely helpful right now if they found a hundred ways to share the record of their experiences with both Jewish Israelis and Palestinians in the Holy Land.

Wow. That Helena Cobban is quite the naif.
I’m pretty sure that if she got uncensored opinions, the
ANC types would proclaim themselves pretty pleased with
the way that things have worked out since 1994.
By contrast, an honest reply from the Afrikaners would
probably tell her that they wish in retrospect that they
had never gone to the bargaining table.
Most of the young and economically viable Afrikaners got
a taste of black majority rule and emigrated as soon as
they could; the older rural Boers who remained have been
being murdered in very large numbers, in what would appear
to a disinterested observer as a decentralized campaign
with tacit official sanction. Mugabeism on the quiet.
—

Posted by: marquer | Jan 27 2006 6:54 utc | 18

@joe5348
1. To say that Hamas is secular while Israel is religious is just weird.
My piece above says: “Hamas on the other side is calling for a radical islamic state.”
THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; …it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.
a. So limiting to “Jewish immigration” is secular?
b. How many UN resultions did Israel follow, how many not?
2. Obviously, you agree with the Palestinian treatment of Gays and Lesbians,…
I didn´t say a word about this, so why do you write I “obviously agree”? I do not.
3. Honor killings must also be something you view as just ..
I didn´t say a word about this, so why do you write I “view those as just”? I do not.
4. Comparing Israel with Iran just goes way past the bend. Israel has executed ONE person it has captured in almost 60 years.

Israel Defense Forces soldiers shot dead a 9-year-old Palestinian girl on Thursday in the Gaza Strip near the border with Israel, Palestinian medics said.

Haaretz, today
Technically you are right. They didn´t capture the girl before they murdered her and let her body laying around for some hours.
5. Obviously, you approve of the Iranian treatment of the Bahai religion.
I didn´t say a word about this so why do you write I “approve”? I do not. By the way: Bahai is strictly ant-gay so please revisit your point 2.
6. MK Eitam is a right wing extremist who has totally rejected Sharon and Olmert. Obviously his comments are not representative of the official Isreali position.
I did write: “The Israeli election system gives undue power to small, radical religious parties, making Israel in effect a jewish religious state …”

Mafdal [party] was a member on the 2003 government led by prime minister Ariel Sharon and had two ministers in the cabinet. Efi Eitam was the Minister of Housing …

wikipedia
Eitam did step down as minister when Sharon “disengaged” from Gaza, but that does not mean he is not influential. As a minister his comments were obviously “representative of the offical Israeli position”.
The last prediction I saw you make was that Cheney would resign by Christmas. Who is U.S. Vice-President right now?
I don´t remember to have made such a prediction. Please show when and where I did so.
I understand running against the grain, but we should all try to remember that we are part of the reality based community and when you start saying things that are just silly, you detract from that community.
Please take a look into a mirror and read your above sentence to yourself.

Posted by: b | Jan 27 2006 10:00 utc | 19

Just goes to show that Joe the Troll can’t live in this company.

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Jan 27 2006 13:23 utc | 20

B,
November 24, 2005 post titled “The Plan.” The girl was not killed in Israel, was ordered to stop and was carrying a package that looked to the soldiers to possibly contain bombs. The point of any single state solution would necessarily entail acceptance of Palestinian societal rules regarding Gays and Lesbians. Certainly Israel is a Jewish country, but most of the Jews there are secular. Sharon was no religious zealot. Shinnui, falling apart though it is, has more influence than Eitam.
I don’t know exactly what will happen, but I have three scenario:
1. Hamas realizes that it needs Israel more than Israel needs it. They stop the violence and enter into a treaty (not a truce) with Israel. Trade between the two countries increases, tourism increases, life gets better. Hamas gets East Jerulalem as a capital and unfettered access between the West Bank and Gaza. Israel gets real security.
2. Hamas continues to call for the destruction of Israel and allows the violence to go on. Israel responds to this act of war by shutting off the water and electricity to the Palestinians, war breaks out, Israel loses 2-5,000 soldiers, the Palestinians lose about 250,000, 500,00-1,000,000 leave the territories (though I don’t know where they would go), the rest swear loyalty to Israel or are quarantined and Israel does possess Greater Israel with huge Jewish majority.
3. Hamas continues the rhetoric, but engages in behind the scenes deals. The violence stops, Hamas shuts down Islamic Jihad and other small splinter groups. Israel allows Palestinian workers into Israel, continues to provide electricity and water and a cold peace ensues. In this scenario, the hope is that after a period of time, perhaps before the next elections in five years, and after the Palestinians are prepped for peace by their leadership, substantial public talks begin.
My guess is number three.
Joe

Posted by: joe5348 | Jan 27 2006 15:24 utc | 21

“the only viable longterm solution is a common state which includes Israel, Gaza and the West Bank into one nation and allows equal rights for everybody living there.”
Yes, the only problems are that: (1) most Jewish Israelis don’t want it, and will kill to prevent it, and (2) most Arab Palestinians don’t want it, and will kill to prevent it.
Other than that, it’s a viable solution.

Posted by: JR | Jan 27 2006 15:49 utc | 22

@joe5348 – My November 24, 2005 post title was The Plan? Why might I have used a question mark? Why didn´t you copy it into your above argument?
Thanks for such serious arguments.

Posted by: b | Jan 27 2006 16:59 utc | 23

Here is the quote from the post:
This is the setup:
– Cheney will resign around Christmas for medical reasons and will take the blame on all the bad stuff – Iraq, torture laws, oil prices (and his Halliburton options) – with him into retirement.
– Bush will do some house cleaning by changing some public faces, mainly spokesman McClellan and probably Rove in his official position (but not Rove the Brain).
– Bush will be presented as having been aloft from all discussions about anything that afterward became a problem.
Will this be sufficient? I don´t think so, but Bush did pull of more bad stunts than I ever would have though possible. And the US public sofar did applaud to all of them.
Are you saying you didn’t make a prediction? Anyway, I think my prediction about the future of the conflict is serious.
Joe

Posted by: joe5348 | Jan 27 2006 17:24 utc | 24

I agree with Bernhard that the one state solution is the only theoretical and practical ideal that will work.
It won’t happen in our life times. We in CH paid good tax money somewhat half-heartedly, to encourage the FM Micheline Calmy-Rey who instigated, or made possible, the elaborate plan for a two-state solution that didn’t attract much int’l attention. Thinking back on that, I remember people talking about ‘le moins pire’ – the least bad. Now, they say, what a waste of time and money. But I digress.
Israel, supported and maintained by the West, the US in first position, its supporters, will never give up. They aim to control or take over large swatches of the ME.
Israel is a toe-hold. Its main function is not even a territorial or military presence (though that counts), but a propaganda tool: remember the Holocaust, be on the side of what is noble and right, pay attention to this terrible, dreadful, stomach-sinking conflict in a small scrap on the edge of the ME. Let it be an example, a bell for the future, and realise what we are facing, understand that the issues here – there! – are vital, be aware that only strong, concerted, committed action will put an end to that kind of strife and killing.
In the end, it does not matter who exactly the Pals vote for, the only important thing is that the conflict should continue, under one guise or another, with its ups and downs, its desperate quarrels, its various supporting factions endlessly chewing over one thing or another.
The Palestinians have already lost practically everything.
Hamas is going to get it back? No. Will a one-state deal arise? No. Will the Pals be better off? No. Will the US use its clout to end the conflict, treat with Hamas, lay down the law, terminate the shit ? No. Will Israelis be happier, freerer, at ease? No. Will the EU / UN do more than pour money in to keep the Pals just alive, piously posturing ? No.
Still, the results of the vote are better than nothing. Maybe a glimmer. Who knows.

Posted by: Noisette | Jan 27 2006 19:09 utc | 25

Joe Blow has certainly found an overwhelmingly good way to create peace. Everything the Israelis do is good and everything the Palestinians do is bad. That will certainly fix the conflict.
Do he and his zionist mates ever get really honest with the xtian fools that they’ve tricked in the US?
Do they tell them that the huge amount of aid, without which Israel couldn’t hope to hang on to the illegally occupied teritories, which is really the whole joint and not just the extra bits grabbed after 68, is also used to fund state subsidised abortions?
Do they tell them of the daily harrassment which these people’s fellow xtians have to put up with in Jerusalem?
Or do they just keep mouthing the same lies, platitudes and half truths that Joe has been blathering in here.
Can Joe show us a Hamas site where the ‘hamas charter’ is prominent?
Should we dig out some obscure piece of paper from the terrorist organisation Sharon belonged to before the illegal state of Israel was established?
Why does the Israeli government continually refer to the report of the enquiry into the slaughter at Sabra and Chatila as clearing Sharon of involvement in these massacres when it does no such thing?
Why does the Israeli government continue to commit acts of espionage and sabotage, acts of war really in nations half a world away from their shabby little stick-up?
Do they really imagine the rest of us will eventually accept this outrage as a nation state?
The Israelis can keep kicking back a percentage of the US taxpayers funds given them to the US legislature for ever, but it still won’t change a simple fact.
That is that as each year goes by the rest of the world wises up more and more to this attempt to wipe out Palestine’s culture and turn the people within into some sort of generic sub-human species called islamo-fascist arab-erectus. We’ve seen the skinheaded ‘settler’ kids bash the old men who have the gall to want to follow the same path to Friday prayer as they always have.
We’ve seen families living in the detritus of their once warm and welcoming homes. Why are they now living in squalor Joe? Oh that’s right, the IDF bulldozed their home because some ‘settler’ who had just built his house on illegally occupied land was worried that the ‘arabs’ were now too close.
The thing that really gets me is that apart from the horror and inhumanity of what is being done in Palestine, what’s being done is so damn stupid.
I don’t know whether or not the hamas charter is a legitimate document and if it is whether it is still adhered to by hamas, but I have had plenty of Israelis tell me that the book says all other tribes must be driven from the lands of Israel and that trying to accomodate the Palestinians in any way is a crime against god.
You see it’s a bit like the issues many conservationists face. They are clinging onto something much more powerful forces want to get hold of.
While it is possible to mobilise support to keep those forces at bay most of the time it just isn’t possible to do so all of the time. Yet the other side just has to ‘win’ once and it’s all over.
Then years of repressed anger at the repeated injustices Palestinians have suffered will be released in an instant.
It would be awful, something no one wants to see and yet that is exactly what is going to happen unless Israelis see reason.
How long do you think the US empire is going to be able to afford to prop Israel up?
The empire is already tottering and creaking, thanks in no small part to the ridiculous positions, completely against US long term interests, that the corrupt US legislature and executive have been cajoled and bribed into holding. The cajoling and bribery has come in no small part from those selfsame fanatics that want to ‘drive all other tribes from the lands of israel’.
The sheeple may be a bit slow but they will wake up. When they do and take a look at the mess they are in they will want a scapegoat, “look there’s that damned Israel which cops more per head of population of US tax money than americans do”.
How much longer will the corrupt and repressive regimes which the US has installed into the ME at Israel’s behest be able to keep their populations in check? One year? Five years? Certainly no more than ten years.
Arabs and Jews had a history of living side by side for a couple of thousand years, sure it wasn’t always perfect but it never got as bad as it did with the xtian Europeans and Jews.
The Europeans got their way and drove practically all of the diaspora out. The Jews fell for the ultimate shell game and took a place the xtians ‘gave’ them, trouble was it wasn’t the xtians place to give.
Oops! Slight problem there. Not to worry! The xtian guilt will keep us safe.
Yeah right!
Guilt is good for about two generations and then the xtians will find something bigger and newer to feel guilty about.
Guess what? Their outrageous behaviour in the rest of the ME is shaping up to be ‘The Big New Guilt Trip’.
What will happen then?
A giant nuclear Masada?

Posted by: Debs is dead | Jan 27 2006 19:47 utc | 26

Debs,
Ever heard of google?
Anyway, here’s one, cut and paste and go there, but there are lots more:
http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html
Joe

Posted by: joe5348 | Jan 27 2006 20:35 utc | 27

“The Jews fell for the ultimate shell game and took a place the xtians ‘gave’ them, trouble was it wasn’t the xtians place to give.”
I seem to remember that the Jews took it. They booted the British out and then they pushed three Arab invading armies back, with weapons they smuggled in because the “xtians” had imposed an arms embargo. They assassinated the UN mediator, Folke Bernadotte – a “xtian” if ever there was one – because they thought he was selling them out.
But the history doesn’t jibe with the Crusader narrative that Debs shares with Ahmadinejad, so Debs goes with the myth.

Posted by: JR | Jan 27 2006 23:31 utc | 28

Joe
That link you provided was the first one google threw up for me yesterday when I searched too. I have no idea who the Palestine Centre are so I went to http://www.palestinecenter.org and that took me to a page called The Jerusalem Fund.
Who are the Jerusalem Fund?
This is from their about us page:
The Jerusalem Fund for Education & Community Development is an independent, non-profit, non-political, non-sectarian organization based in Washington, DC. Funding for operational expenses is derived from investment income. This, together with donations from private individuals throughout the U.S., supports our humanitarian grants.
Hmm doesn’t sound much like Hamas runs that organisation. In fact it sounds more like a:
” US based “pro-peace” (two state solution peace only please) web-sites.”
Now before I made that post yesterday of course I googled for Hamas charter and all I could find were exactly these types of site. None of the sites had any substantial link to the Hamas organisation.
But that’s not even the issue much as trolls like to confine all debate to some irrelevancy they have introduced, it really doesn’t matter what Hamas said when they were formed.
As I said before if I wanted to get caught up in irrelevancies, I could chase up all the bits of paper issued by the terrorist organisation which Sharon the war criminal belonged to before the formation of the ersatz state of Israel, and I reckon it would turn up some brutal threats against the english, the arabs, or both.
However it would tell me nothing. The reason the corrupt and cruel leadership elite of Israel are concerned about Hamas achieving power, if having the right to appoint the ‘trusties’ in a prison camp could even be called ‘power’, is that they may well be incorruptible. As incorruptible as most of the PLO or Fatah once were. That would mean no more “sweetheart deals” with an aging elite who have lost contact with their consituency.
When Israel holds a Hamas parliamentarian’s family or family member hostage, Hamas may say “Sorry we don’t do business with terrorists”
What will Israel do if all of the double agents in the Palestinian Authority who have been bribed, blackmailed or threatened into selling out their people, lose their jobs?
It would be a lot harder to set up a crippled and blind old man to be turned into meat and blood and bone by a missile then wouldn’t it?
Go back and find your ‘Hamas charter’ on a Hamas site where it is being used as ‘corporate goal’ of the organisation. Until you do that even mentioning it is an irrelevancy.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Jan 28 2006 0:17 utc | 29

Debs- Hamas has no English language website. Hamas is not interested in talking to people who don’t speak Arabic. You and I are not their constituency, and they feel no obligation to tell us what they think. Why should they?
When speaking to their own constituents they are clear about their position. Hamas advocates armed struggle with the goal of toppling the existing govenment of Israel by force. “Mishaal added: “No one in the world can deprive us of our arms and our right to resistance. This is a strategic choice to which we will adhere until Palestine is completely free and all the refugees are returned.” http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/2BCDD26C-01DE-4B02-BEA5-01E694CC952A.htm
Now, we can all agree that war is certainly a legitimate option for a political movement to pursue. No one here is a pacifist, as far as I can tell. And as you point out, Hamas’ stand is similar to the one that Ariel Sharon took in his youth. But we should be clear that this is in fact Hamas’ position, and not pretend that they are a peace party when their own platform is that they are a war party. We should acknowledge that the Palestinians who voted for Hamas knew that they were voting for war, and that they will not be surprised or disappointed when war is what they get.
And it is your own view that Israel as a Jewish state has no right to exist – you say that accepting it as a nation-state is an “outrage” and you call it “ersatz”. And you also believe that the government of Israel is composed of war criminals who cannot be dislodged except by force of arms. So why are you so intent on denying that Hamas agrees with you?

Posted by: JR | Jan 28 2006 0:57 utc | 30

Yale University also has the document:
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/hamas.htm
Joe

Posted by: joe5348 | Jan 28 2006 1:42 utc | 31

Support our Kidnappers!
Sharon’s Terror Child
How the Likud Bloc Mid-wifed the Birth of Hamas
Hamas, Son of Israel
The Israelis birthed and nurtured their Islamist nemesis

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Jan 28 2006 2:52 utc | 32

You know, I’m hopeful about the results too. It’s really hard to be a terrorist supporter when you have assets. It’s hard to fight against “The Man” when you are The Man.

Posted by: doug r | Jan 28 2006 3:34 utc | 33

“I don’t understand your optimism. Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country.”
—David Ben Gurion, 1956, quoted by Nahum Goldmann in The Jewish Paradox, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p.99. [source]

Posted by: b real | Jan 28 2006 3:37 utc | 34

damn, uncle. funny how the reporter of that wife seizing story forgot to mention that taking hostages is illegal, isn’t it. let’s see if we can help him out:

“During the pre-operation brief it was recommended by TF personnel that if the wife were present, she be detained and held in order to leverage the primary target’s surrender,” wrote the 14-year veteran officer.
He said he objected, but when they raided the house the team leader, a senior sergeant, seized her anyway.
“The 28-year-old woman had three young children at the house, one being as young as six months and still nursing,” the intelligence officer wrote. She was held for two days and was released after he complained, he said.

let’s see… wouldn’t the following apply:

Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War
Article 24
The Parties to the conflict shall take the necessary measures to ensure that children under fifteen, who are orphaned or are separated from their families as a result of the war, are not left to their own resources…
Article 31
No physical or moral coercion shall be exercised against protected persons, in particular to obtain information from them or from third parties.
Article 33
No protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.
…
Reprisals against protected persons and their property are prohibited.
Article 34
The taking of hostages is prohibited.

sounds to me like something the article should have at least mentioned

Posted by: b real | Jan 28 2006 4:13 utc | 35

No one here is a pacifist, as far as I can tell.
pharapraphrasing as it seems to no longer be on the web:
One pacifist Jew who was interviewed by Haratz responded to the question about what would you do if you saw a suicide bomber:
We have beaten, starved, and bound the Palestinians in chains, and if one of them happens to get a hand free and tries to hurt us, should we be surprised?
===
Pacifists have played a part in Palestine, particularly in response to the 1947-48 ethnic cleansing.
1949 Relief Efforts in Gaza
http://www.afsc.org/about/hist/gaza.htm
“Do you live in the virtue of that life and power that takes away the occasion of all wars?”

Posted by: ed | Jan 28 2006 4:31 utc | 36

@ JR
I mention religion solely because that is the coin of conflict introduced to Palestine by the British xtians, then zionists and now perpetuated by the US. If we are going to discuss the injustices felt by Muslims then we need to do so in the terms with which they comprehend the injustices.
The greedheads seeking to control the ME and through that the world’s energy supplies; have frequently used well meaning xtian patsies to divert attention from their true agenda.
Bernadotte was by no means the first of these. That honour rightfully belongs to TE Lawrence.
In actual fact the people of the middle east only went to Islam after every other ist and ism had revealed itself to be a disguise for self interest. Islam nations were amongst the first to set up secular states.
Rather than rely on some external philosophy to help them throw off the shackles of colonialism they decided to rely on their own religion and at least that way it wouldn’t be foreigners ripping them off.
We must also remember that one of the reasons that such large injustices were successfully perpetuated was that Hitler and Co used religion as one of the excuses for their murders and the reason that the rest of the Xtian world felt so guilty was that Xtian institutions had tacitly supported this pogrom as they had every other that had occurred in Europe since the Spanish Inquisition.
Whatever pathetic effort that Britain and the UN put up to prevent the invasion of Palestine, allowing passenger liners to run aground or turning a blind eye to mass arms imports showed that clearly their heart wasn’t in it. Being pathetic was a convenient way to solve a difficult ‘problem’.
Quite rightly what Jewish people that were left in Western Europe after the fall of the Nazi regime weren’t interested in allowing history to repeat itself.
The US was just beginning it’s Red Scare bizzo, so what about Marx and Trotsky? They were jewish weren’t they?
Or do you choose to forget that anti-semitism wasn’t confined to Nazi europe?
Now of course the red scare thing was a furphy, just as the inquisition was a furphy, a false rationale for concealing a more base purpose.
Xtians had been talking about the ‘people who murdered jesus’ since the fall of the Moors in Spain left them with an unwanted but frequently sorely needed group of ‘invaders’. Probably 15th or 16th generation residents but just like the ‘Koreans’ of Japan they were still foreigners.
Anyway lets move to the 20th century shall we?
Most of the ME was part of the Ottoman Empire, an ostensibly Islamic Empire, although it should be noted that the concept of Islamic empire is just as paradoxical as a Xtian empire.
Anyway whatever the Ottoman empire had once been by 1914 it had become cruel, backward and corrupt.
It was very similar in fact to it’s friend and neighbour, The Austro Hungarian empire, which purported to be a Xtian empire but was as savage and incompatible with its purported philosophy as the Ottoman.
By 1910 the ruling elite in the west could see that the 20th century was shaping up to be the time of the internal combustion engine.
The US had quite a bit of oil but hardly anyone alse had much and importantly those who did have it didn’t realise what they were sitting on.
WW1 was kicked off at first opportunity. Without US assistance England and France were having a bit of trouble keeping Hans the Kraut in his place at the same time as showing Johnny Turk who’s who.
So the English went to the latest edition of “subjugate a People in 5 easy steps” and dug out old favourite “Divide and Rule”
TE Lawrence was dispatched to Mecca thence to Palestine, where the people had been chafing under the bit of Turkish rule for quite some time. (“Bit of an odd fish that Lawrence. Wouln’t be surprised to hear he bats for the other team. Still he went to a good school and he knows his Arabic”).
Lawrence cut a deal with the Palestinians that they could have their country back if they helped the English chase the Turks out. The endgame was to be one giant republic embracing all arab lands. Religion wasn’t much of a player in this as the xtian arabs of Beruit and Palestine also saw the benefit of a Pan Arabic state.
And so it went. Lawrence would pick the targets, often ones that favoured England’s strategy more than the Palestinians’. Eventually Johnny Turk was gone and if we forget about the hundreds of thousands of NZ, Australian, Canadian and ah yes English (but not what you would call top drawer english) that were slaughtered on the beaches of Gallipoli by that damn fool Churchill, it was a pretty cheap exercise.
But the payout mightn’t be as good as hoped. The yanks want a piece of the ME action in return for bailing us out and those damn jewish bankers keep moaning about a homeland for the jews in Palestine of all places. Still better there than here eh.
Anyway Lawrence the fruitbat has been blithering about some ‘deal’ he did with his arab boyfriends but Balfour over at Admiralty (replacing that damn fool Churchill), assures me that there’s nothing in writing to that effect so he’s going to knock out something to keep the damned money-lenders, in particular Rothschild, quiet. Anyone would think Balfour believes he saved the world anyway he’s looking as pleased as punch since I told him we’d call it the Balfour Declaration Haw HAw Haw! So the piece of paper has gone to Rothschild.
By WW2 Lord Victor Rothschild was a big cheese in MI5 and served as one of Churchill’s WW2 confidantes.
As discussed elsewhere today the Jewish ‘problem’ had to be sorted and in a way that didn’t upset the powerful forces in the British govt that supported Zionism, at the same time as also ensuring that the Arabs didn’t get angry enough to sell their oil elsewhere.
So the plan to pretend to be protecting Palestine whilst in fact aiding the zionists was put into play.
The english even sold out their own. One of the zionist commandos blew up the King David Hotel killing many english soldiers.
As far as I can see people should believe what they like although I can’t see the neccessity for everyone to believe the same thing. To me that is an invitation to have your beliefs corrupted by some mainchancer who wants to control the religion for their own ends.
Certainly that has been the way that Xtianity has been for… Ohhh… two thousand years or so.
Believe what you like but if you can’t see that the primary aim of organised religion/philosophy is to control the sheeple you’re putting the shackles on for the elites yourself.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Jan 28 2006 4:41 utc | 37

Joe why do you keep saying I have said things which I haven’t all to prove the authenticity of a document which is of little relevance to anyone except as a way of diverting attention from Israeli war crimes to those of the colonised people.
We all know that Israel is going to attack and if possible murder the hamas people. But I for one dislike trolls such as yourself coming in here and pushing your sorry excuses for murder.
Because the reason Hamas must die has nothing to do with some obscure piece of paper that even Yale fails in attributing to its source*.
The reason Hamas must die is because they may be incorruptible.
They may not be able to be persuaded to sell their country men out.
You yourself claim that Hamas is the natural result of war criminal Sharon and terrorists Ben-Gurion, Rabin and Begin. In the end if you use fanaticism against people for too long, their only effective response is to go fanatical all over their enemies’ asses too.
I am a pacifist albeit one who believes that violence may be used in defense. Defense of an actual physical attack upon yourself, your family or your clan.
Palestinians driving the jewish people into the sea is one of my least preferred solutions to the current situation, but it is a probable response if people continue to never give the Palestinians a inch.
How about waiting and seeing what it is Hamas intends to do before you go plastering scutllebutt all over the net.
Zionists know damn well that the abolition of the state of Israel doesn’t mean chasing the jewish people that Europe doesn’t want out of Palestine. It means creating a state where all the people live together. The longer this violence goes on the longer it will take to do that.
So what if the Jewish people are outnumbered in the country they chose to invade? That is an inevitable outcome in the country my forebears colonised and I look forward to the day when this nation can regain some of it’s culture. The Israelis will still be better off than they would be in Europe.
Lets not forget it was their call to stop the US from taking the Russian Jews and to send them to ersatz Israel instead. Something that the emigres didn’t want, the US didn’t want and the Palestinians certainly didn’t want. Nevertheless the old ‘you cross my palm with others’ gold and I’ll give you 10% back as long as you also vote the way I say’ trick overcame that difficulty.
The cynical manipulation of Russian Jewry is one of the nastiest things the ersatz state of Israel has done.
The russians are right at the bottom of the heap in Israel even lower than the Jews who had been forced to leave their homes in the middle east once the state of israel had sufficiently inflamed the arabs. The ‘problem’ as the zionist fanatics see it, is many of the Russian jewish people aren’t in fact jews.
The russians call them jews but the Israelis say they aren’t. Just cause the Russians called you a Jew and we got you to fight in our army and get shot doesn’t mean we’ll bury you in a Jewish cemetary.
Consequently ‘the Russians’ are frequently the ones forced to take homes in the illegal settlements of Palestine. Just like the white trash of the US south after the civil war, the most tormented become the worst tormentors.
It is the ‘russians’ who can be the most rabid in their hatred of Palestinians.
What a mess! Still more propaganda aimed at undermining the Palestinians’ latest effort to find a way out with their lives intact is hardly likely to help sort that mess out.
Got to keep the bullshit flowing eh Joe. Otherwise who knows?
The US taxpayers’ money might end up getting spent on US taxpayers.
There will be a Hamas site in english in fact I know cause I’ve been to it a while ago. It’s just damned hard to find because as per usual the web addresses of places like http://www.hamas.org have been taken over by US funded zionists. How do you think that makes the Palestinians feel Joe? To know that even their attempts to speak to the world are gagged or distorted. Why would zionists do that unless they were scared of the truth getting out?
*The purported Yale link which was another I explored yesterday takes one to an organisation called the Avalon project. Without being anti-semitic, just realistic it is worth noting that the endpaper for this web site says:
© 1996-2005 The Avalon Project at Yale Law School.
The Lillian Goldman Law Library in Memory of Sol Goldman.
Once again Joe if you wish to have this document discussed as a genuine Hamas document you will have to demonstrate its provenance and current circumstance negates anywhere in the USA as being a credible referee of provenance.
And once again even if you did That,which I doubt you can, it would still ‘prove’ nothing other than zionists’ reliance on guilt and fear as their primary tools of colonialism. Damn shame really.
At least the previous generation of Israelis were prepared to put their lives on the line for what they believed. The ‘hand-out generation’ just lie to try and get what they want.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Jan 28 2006 6:08 utc | 38

Joe is not a troll. A troll, if I understand, argues any side of a position to get a reaction.
Keep in mind that when discussing the state of Israel that there is plenty of blame for everyone. Not all Jews immigrated to Israel to support Zionism. Some immigrated directly from the death camps because – would you want a Jew in your country?
Is there any real surprise that Israel – a racist xenophobic fascist state developed as it did? The real surprise is the number of Jews that oppose it. Is there any real surprise that the Palestinian people have started using suicide bombing, and are resorting to extremist religion in order to survive? The big surprise is just how long the process is taking.
When it comes to the culture of Christianity in the west and our lack of response to the plight of the Jews during WWII, and following that, the Palestinian people; the following may be useful:
Matthew 25:35-36 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
After helping create the conditions of hate and racism, and the resulting ethnic massacres and ethnic cleansing, our response to the plight of the Palestinians is basically – would you want a Palestinian in your country? Joe is a product of our (western society) selfish actions. We created the conditions that have encouraged his self-centred world view. Maybe we need to deal with it.

Posted by: ed | Jan 28 2006 17:02 utc | 39

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