Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
December 8, 2005
“Our Oil Interests”

The U.S. public does not eat all the propaganda crumbs falling off the administration table – like we "promote democracy/piece in the Middle East" or we "free Iraqi people".

But other things like the false "Irak => terrorism" meme seem to stick.

The numbers are quite interesting and I am trying to understand the psychology behind this.

Here are answers to an open question from a current CBS News/New York Times poll (pdf):

53. Why do you think the Bush Administration decided to go to war against Iraq?

Protect our oil interests 17
Protect the U.S. from terrorism 15
Finish what his father started/personal vendetta 13
To get Saddam Hussein 10
Protect the U.S. from WMD’s 9
Because of 9/11 8
Protect the country in general 4
Administration officials wanted to go to war 2
Promote democracy/peace in Middle East 2
So American companies can make money 1
Free Iraqi people 1
Other 7
DK/NA 11

Now could someone please explain what "our oil interests" are in this context?

Today oil climbed above $60/barrel again (and will keep rising). Are "our oil interests" and the failure of the Cheney regime to keep the price low the only decisive reason for the general bad poll numbers?

Comments

My two cents.
The war policy is not so much about low prices for the rest of us as it is about competing with China/India/Russia/Europe for exclusive access to and control of presumed vast remaining oil supplies and supply routes in Iran/Caspian Sea region. The oil companies who control the Cheney administration don’t want to have pay [in euros instead of US dollars] any foreigners for the privilege of selling us gas. Especially of those foreigners are nationalizing thier oil to help the poor or to enrich their corrupt national elite. No, those oil profits are meant to be for OUR corrupt national elite. They want to own the oil themselves so they can make the sales profits, and control the petrodollar market, and control whether or not China/Russia/Europe etc etc will get any of it. And warprofiteering of course.
That said, the US public only knows that “they hate our freedoms” and “they” might try to stop us from putting gas in our cars and running our whole economy on gas. The US public beleives the official line that the higher oil prices are only caused by unlucky weather patterns and those ‘unstable’ foreign freedom-haters. They don’t suspect the destabalizing war [and pollution] policies of the oil corporations.

Posted by: gylangirl | Dec 8 2005 23:26 utc | 1

I think this poll is very promising because the 911 and the WMD’s and the spread democracy justifications for war have polled so comparatively low. Bush’s bad polling numbers come from the fact that Americans hate to be losing a war [again].

Posted by: gylangirl | Dec 8 2005 23:31 utc | 2

Insurgents Using Chem Weapons – On Themselves?
“This has to be the most bizarre twist in the WMD saga yet. Insurgents in Iraq could very well have chemical weapons. And they may be using them – on themselves.” After experimenting on a variety of hallucinogens, the Pentagon selected BZ, or 3-quinuclidinyl benzillate, a potent mind-altering substance that was colorless and odorless and readily amenable to delivery in an aerosol cloud, to weaponize in the ’50’s. It incapacitates with both physical and mental effects, supposedly without lethality. (From the description, it appears that its effects are largely anticholinergic actions. Anticholinergic toxicity from medications is a common cause of confusion, agitation and delirium in hospitalized patients. — FmH) However, it produced uncontrollable aggression in its victims, which among other unpredictable effects, caused it to fall out of favor. Supposedly, the US stockpile of hundreds of thousands of pounds of BZ was destroyed by 1990.
Although the US CIA discounts the reports, British intelligence sugests that Iraq developed a similar compound. A weblog by a US Marine, since taken down, suggested that insurgents were often juiced up with this chemical warfare agent, among other mind-altering drugs, in preparation for suicide attacks on occupation forces, the modern equivalent of the proverbial half-pint of rum issued to British seamen before naval actions. The article suggests that ‘cannon fodder’ guerrillas were exposed to the agent involuntarily, since it seems unlikely that anyone would take ‘this ultimate bad trip’ voluntarily.
Interesting speculation but, as the article takes pains to conclude, it is only speculation, with little evidence. It leaps from surmise to hypothesis to assumption, it seems to me. I find it much more likely that the paranoia and fanaticism of the insurgents attacking occupation forces have been inflamed by reason, not madness.
Also see:
PUBLIC LAW 95-79 [P.L. 95-79] TITLE 50, CHAPTER 32, SECTION 1520 “CHEMICAL AND BIOLOGICAL WARFARE PROGRAM” “The use of human subjects will be allowed for the testing of chemical and biological agents by the U.S. Department of Defense, accounting to Congressional committees with respect to the experiments and studies.” “The Secretary of Defense [may] conduct tests and experiments involving the use of chemical and biological [warfare] agents on civilian populations [within the United States].” -SOURCE- Public Law 95-79, Title VIII, Sec. 808, July 30, 1977, 91 Stat. 334. In U.S. Statutes-at-Large, Vol. 91, page 334, you will find Public Law 95-79. Public Law 97-375, title II, Sec. 203(a)(1), Dec. 21, 1982, 96 Stat. 1882. In U.S. Statutes-at-Large, Vol. 96, page 1882, you will find Public Law 97-375.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Dec 8 2005 23:35 utc | 3

@gylangirl That said, the US public only knows that “they hate our freedoms”
It was a “free answer” question in that poll and oil came up as number one, “hate our freedom” didn´t come up at all.
Those polled are more conscience of the real than the ideals.
Now how far will they go to fight for the real stuff (as if that is neede – why not just pay)?

Posted by: b | Dec 9 2005 0:03 utc | 4

@ Uncle $cam,
It’s difficult for me to believe that the masters wouldn’t be using every technology at there disposal to further their agendas. I suspect that our good-will minds can’t even begin to come to grips with how callous the nature of their bad-will minds.
Of course my statement immediately presupposes a we and they, a division, a separation and doesn’t take responsibility for my culpability as part of they.
@ b,
My read on the stats shows apprx. 50% not eating the propaganda crumbs and only about 40% still eating the “Irak => terrorism” meme. The psychology behind the still hungry 40% is the their addiction to the corporate media/infotainment psy-ops.
Hopefully reality based information/blogs like MoA will continue to dilute the misinformation deluge. Keep up the good work all.

Posted by: Juannie | Dec 9 2005 0:14 utc | 5

Are “our oil interests” and the failure of the Cheney regime to keep the price low the only decisive reason for the general bad poll numbers?
b
in a word, b , yes

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 9 2005 0:23 utc | 6

“why not just pay?”
The rich… the really rich… did not pull themselves up by their bootstraps or play by the rules. You don’t get to be a tycoon by writing a lot of cheques.

Posted by: Monolycus | Dec 9 2005 0:24 utc | 7

speaking of oil

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 9 2005 0:44 utc | 8

@ b,
You asked for our contextual explanations of the number one answer. The poll asked only why the us invaded iraq. The highest response for the ‘protect our oil interests’ answer does NOT imply that the public disapproves of this reasoning for war, even though WE might disapprove of it.
I think the public approves of this war reasoning because the public unfortunately ALSO beleives that ‘they [terrorists from oil rich regions] hate us for our freedoms’. The fact that ‘protecting us [sic] from terrorism [sic]’ is number two would bear this out, IMO.

Posted by: gylangirl | Dec 9 2005 1:11 utc | 9

@giap
Great link on that Counterpunch article re Chavez.
It comes back to Pinter’s lecture about it all being in open regarding US hegemony.
Deadly times ahead.

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Dec 9 2005 1:24 utc | 10

The oil companies who control the Cheney administration don’t want to have pay [in euros instead of US dollars] any foreigners for the privilege of selling us gas.
gylangirl
The problem here is foreigner. I know the conventional critique of US imperialism is the geostrategic control of resources pursued to protect US interests. I too have parroted this rationale. But, I think the interests of a capitalist class, a global capitalist class unconfined by fealty to this-or-that national “interest,” are the interests defended by this war. To be sure, there is nothing so peculiarly american about Exxon, any more than Shell is peculiarly dutch.
When we say this war is about america preserving its way of life and the profits of its companies, that’s half right. Global capitalism is willing to defend “our way of life” because doing so is good for business. Just ask the Chinese communists.
If we fail to understand this fact about global capitalism, as has been the fashion herre among some MoA luminaries, we slip into the stupidly vain condemnation of the abstraction of America as the mother of all problems. This is falseconsciousness and evades confrontation against all global capitalism.

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 9 2005 2:01 utc | 11

u s imperialism not america is the mother of all problems.
u s imperialism is the principal threat to humanity
the war in iraq is an imperial war for geopolitical control of land & resources & is in my mind – one of the first steps in a dance of war against china
u s imperialism is not an abstraction – it is on the contrary coldhard empirical – fact
slothrop your borgesian notions of contemporary capital do not understand at all the primacy of national interests
in your desire to see ‘international capitalism’ you never allow for the most implicit & racist meaning of that term
when the u s invades murders & occupies iraq it is for national interests
when the u s destabilise the legal government of hugo chavez – it is for national interests
when u s imperialism carries out a programme of murder against the people of nicaragua, honduras & el salvador – it does so in the ‘national interest’
when the govt of salvador allende was destroyed & the people of chile assassinated it was done for the ‘national interest’ of the u s empire
u s imperialism is not an abstraction. it is an unfortunate fact

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 9 2005 2:30 utc | 12

& yes yr right cloned poster – we ar as pinter pointed out watching the empire going for broke before our eyes

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 9 2005 2:32 utc | 13

Your thesis is true as a historical moment of the development of capital. Your thesis is untrue assessment of global capital.
Show me how Conoco is “American.” Or Newmont Mining. Or Ford Motors. Then tell me how, in the sphere of finance capital, the “interests” of “American” capitalists do not also coincide with the “interests” of chinese communists.
I would like concrete details, not aleatory reformulations of leninism.

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 9 2005 2:49 utc | 14

“But other things like the false “Irak => terrorism” meme seem to stick” b
they stick because on one side you have all the dominat means of communication hittting you over the head with a baseball bat or proising it if you do not accept the meme
& on the other hand – you have a left like slothrop who would argue that that there is no ‘american’ ‘interest’ – that global capital is doing it all for our own good
that the mind that creates the summary execution of airplane passengers, that creates abu ghraib, that uses death squads, that proudly uses chemical warfare – is not constitutive of the american empire is simply beyond me
oil is central but people of all cultures have to fight the malignancy which is cultural & ethical which has at its very centre – u s imperialism & that fight must be carried to all sorts of levels
& one of them is as pinter did – is by calling the nightmare by its real name & not some infinite, aleatoire, labrynthine form of capital that has neither masters or slaves, perpetrators or victims
& that is demonstrably true, slothrop whatver way you want to cut up le capital

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 9 2005 2:59 utc | 15

and, no. you are “borgesian.” Borges imagined why it was nmot correct to read the odyssey before the iliad. you imagine why it is not correct to imagine the existence of global capital before monopoly capital.

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 9 2005 3:05 utc | 16

The burden for you is to prove your claims. I agree the reality of social relations to prodfuction sustained for desultory “national” interests: primacy of the dollar, subsidized consumption, protectionism (like textiles, agriculture). But, your sweeping claim the problems would be reduced by having the chinese run things for awhile is bloody naive. You cannot prove there is no global capitalist class who floss their teeth, all of them, with iraqi underwear. but you can try.

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 9 2005 3:18 utc | 17

I suppose, rgiap, I would like to caution the kind of reverse american exceptionalism you offer is no more helpful, and as every bit obfuscatory, as the deluded “america first” ideology sustaining the bravery of all our country music listeners.
same song. boot in yer ass.

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 9 2005 3:25 utc | 18

when the u s invades murders & occupies iraq it is for national interests
when the u s destabilise the legal government of hugo chavez – it is for national interests
when u s imperialism carries out a programme of murder against the people of nicaragua, honduras & el salvador – it does so in the ‘national interest’

there is a difference between national interests and ‘national interests’
u s imperalism is not in the national interest. i believe the oil mongers are hiding behind a cloak of patriotism and ‘american’ ness and ‘national interest’ to further their self interests. it is not good for america and they could care less for america outside of the protection america provides for them.

Posted by: annie | Dec 9 2005 3:30 utc | 19

but, in another statement on the imperial fiction:
as john lennon says:
He’s the all American bullet-headed Saxon mother’s son
All the children sing:

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 9 2005 3:31 utc | 20

simply put my friend slothrop there is something deeply consistent about the american indian wars & the illegal & immoral invasion of iraq
there is at the centre, a cultural malignancy that connects them. & it is this cultural malignancy that you implacably refuse to deal with

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 9 2005 3:45 utc | 21

explain, please, how this “cultural malignancy” is fed by monolithic american capital or whatever.
c’mon.
prove how this war implicates only american power, economic and otherwise.
please.

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 9 2005 3:51 utc | 22

the US public only knows…
The US public beleives…
i’m a part of the us public & neither of those generalizations resembles me or others that i interact w/. we have to be careful about painting ourselves into such tight spaces.
…as the deluded “america first” ideology sustaining the bravery of all our country music listeners
lonesomeG could probably speak better to this, but there’s a lot of anti-establishment country music out there
could someone please explain what “our oil interests” are in this context?
the context is corporate media providing the framework for thinkable thought – not the elite’s oil, the transnational oilgarchs oil, or the capitalist’s oil, but – fluffing up pinter’s cushion here – our oil. what a cruel joke. even when the us was the number one producer of oil, right here on these (stolen) lands, how exactly was it our oil? were u.s. households receiving royalty pmts from our oil profits? i’m part of the u.s. public, yes, but i’ve never considered iraqi (or venezuelan, nigerian, russian, etc) oil mine or ours. to take a valid response to a poll, that this aggression is largely about oil, and then mock us w/ that answer is contemptuous & disgusting. it’s absurd how the media looks down on us, tells lies to our faces, and we not only debate it, we allow them to continue w/ it. now if conditions for insurrection ever materialize in the united states, taking out master’s propaganda dispensers will be right up there at the top of the list.

Posted by: b real | Dec 9 2005 4:07 utc | 23

slothrop
tho you sometimes speak haughtily of them – i’d counsel you to read books by counterpunch editors & pubishers – alexander cockburn & st clair especially grand theft pentagon but also their imperial crusades. i’d also advise while i’m at it – jhon pilgers recent work
i’d also suggest you reread baran & sweezy & their still powerful influence amongst honorable economists
& there’s absolutely nothing wrong for a feller or a gal of tr age rereading capital
it’s all there

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 9 2005 4:08 utc | 24

& people must take their primal responsibility as citizens & hit the tyrants where they find them – the enemy is not amorphous is it physical & concrete
& it was b reals suggestion a year or two ago about the indian wars that got me to read & read about them to see how fundamentally ‘american’ the nature of this empire is
there are many texts on the indian wars that teach us a great deal of how u s imperialism came to be – but there are also fabulous histories of nobility & resistance. especially of things sacred which the empire in every deed desecrates

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 9 2005 4:17 utc | 25

pilger, et al. have the same problem as you.
you don’t prove a thing. you’re pullin a groucho, as we say.
yes. in Capital, it is all there.

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 9 2005 4:20 utc | 26

all them white europeans. that’s who “americans” are.

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 9 2005 4:22 utc | 27

I’m tired of the acontextual anti-american bashing. perhaps, this is part of cole’s inarticulation of a certain kind of “left.”

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 9 2005 4:24 utc | 28

i think it might be healthy fpr you to read the wealth of literature, not only marxist, but also of a great deal of post colonial scholarship by white black, brown & yellow people on the ‘national question’
a look every day in your papers of record will give you the day to day deal in its more sordid details

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 9 2005 4:27 utc | 29

yes slothrop – throw the loony left epithet at me – on that level i’ve been insulted by experts
now i sleep. with or without reason

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 9 2005 4:30 utc | 30

I expect more from you. that’s all.

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 9 2005 4:38 utc | 31

@b real
there’s a lot of anti-establishment country music out there
lots, try the Drive By Truckers or the Bastard Sons Of Johnny Cash, James Mcmurtry, john hyatt dixie chicks as new commers then the old guard, what I call the original outlaws/highwaymen:
Meral Haggard,George Straight,Waylon jennings,johnny cash,willie nelson, Kris Kristofferson have always been anti-establishment…

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Dec 9 2005 4:48 utc | 32

especially of things sacred which the empire in every deed desecrates
case in point – “white cloud”
for the hopi, white cloud is one of the four cloud chiefs in some versions of their origin stories
in human form, there were others who took the name white cloud, such as the ioway or the brule
after conquest, the name white cloud was given new meaning to the public-at-large, while the indian became the butt of lame jokes

Posted by: b real | Dec 9 2005 4:52 utc | 33

Oh, for chirist’s sake. I wasn’t talking about those counytry listeners.

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 9 2005 4:54 utc | 34

addendum:
Many of these artist’s can be heard on
Boot Liquor Radio . What I call “real” country music…i.e. music w/soul, that hasn’t sold out to the corps. such as clear channel etc…

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Dec 9 2005 4:54 utc | 35

Also Steve Earle, activist country singer.
I don’t see that much distinction between slothrop’s position and r’giap’s. Shades of semantic grey.
However, I do agree with slothrop et. al. that comrade r’giap consistently implicates US empire as the only salient power construct, while minimizing or glossing over Europes’s historical and current record of both domination, and complicity with US domination. Let the record show that not a single European country stood up to America’s invasion of Iraq. Yes, numerous leaders talked a good game to their domestic public, but ALL lent aid, sending “advisors” (spies), soldiers, money, flight, refueling and overflight privleges, hosting airbases–even friggin’ Iceland, who one might think irrelevant enough to show some independence, allowed landing privleges and is dotted with US and NATO radar installations. Turkey, which is only very arguably a part of Europe, took the only brave stand, forgoing Billions of dollars to let the US invade from its territory.
And, on an historical note, let’s recall that France only relinquished significant portions of her empire–Indochine and Algeria–because she was unable to hold on to them; not because her capitalists were somehow more enlightened than US counterparts. And she still has significant imperial interests in Africa, particularly the West coast, having lost control of Central Africa in a US/British coup a decade ago. If less blood is being spilled in her holdings at the moment, it is only because it was spilled previously in the gaining of control, and the natives are now in their place.
Granted, European Capital does not have exactly the same interests as American, but significant portions of the time they coincide quite well. Evidence last years coup in Haiti, where French and American Capital interests joined hands in deposing the democratically elected leader, Aristide. And this while they were quite publically sniping at each other over Iraq. Also note that two major French private companies, Vivendi and Suez Lyonnaise des Eaux, are part of the driving force behind the controversial privatisation of water world wide–including in the US’s backyard, South America, as well as in the US proper. So the capitalist’s divide the world and its resources up: The French get water, and the US gets GM food. Which one is deadlier and less democratic, and which one kills more people?
Often Europe plays the role of “Good Cop” on the international stage to the US’s “Bad Cop”; but both roles are necessary for domination. Its a ploy, one that any business person, or diplomat knows well. But what gets me is when Europeans act like their shit don’t stink. My ex-wife, who is Danish, called me up from out of the blue this spring. (We hadn’t spoken in 19 years!) After perfunctorily making sure I knew who she was, and asking how I was doing, she launched into the Euro-superior rant: “What is up with ‘your’ country? (She has a green card and lived here for over 1/3 of her life.) How could you do this, etc. etc. When I informed her that her country had 1/4 the number of troops we had in Iraq (on a per capita basis) she brought out the excuse list: We aren’t really there to fight, We’re trying to keep the peace (That is the peace of US domination), We have this awful conservative government here, but this is ‘Lille Danmark’, you know this is an aberation for us, (Imperialism is always presented as an aberation, even here in the US), we are such a small country, you are so large, what could we do but follow you. All well spoken as a true Euro-liberal.
Let’s face it either you are an activist, or you’re not. Either you lay your life potentially on the line to fight injustice, or you ignore it, or you talk about it, which is pretty much the same thing. And I don’t see significantly more activism taking place in Europe than the US these days, though I would be happy to be proven wrong.
So slothrop and r’giap are both partially correct. But we are all partially complicit if we are living on a first world level, as those resources had to come from someone else’s belly.

Posted by: Malooga | Dec 9 2005 5:50 utc | 36

We don’t know yet. The history of globalisation/corporatisation suggests that US corporates should be no different than their competitors in other nations. That is once they reach a certain size or critical mass they owe allegiance to no one/nation.
The japanese masterminded the theory of turning a national corporation into a truly global one.
Big originally Japanese players such as Sony recruit their senior management from anywhere. Competence is the issue, not nationality.
However this hasn’t happened on a large scale with originally US based corporate enterprises yet, and it may not do so.
The reasons are twofold in that the exceptionalism of the US pervades the power structure too. One would hope that the senior levels of corporations are pragmatists but the pervasiveness of exceptionalism combined with US based corporations’ management structure rating their interests ahead of their shareholders allows the corporate elites to try and avail themselves of the job protectionism they denied their human resources.
However that is all behavioural stuff and may slow down the stateless corporation but won’t stop it’s development altogether.
One thing might though. That is that control of the steel hand still resides in the US. No voters in other nations of any magnitude would permit the huge % of GDP be expended on the military that the US does.
So even when the corporate bonces want to declare independence they will be held back by the corrupt sloths in control of the US administration. The sloths will argue that if Exxon isn’t believed to be a US corporation in the eyes of the dumb bastards that vote them in, then it becomes that much more difficult to justify spending x billion dollars and y thousand dumb bastard’s lives to further Exxon’s interests.
On a personal level Rupert Murdoch needs to grab chinese citizenship and keep feeding both major parties in Australia to preserve his bolthole much more than he needs to keep his US citizenship. But his hip pocket awareness knows that if he gave up his pretence of allegiance to the exceptionalists it would only be a matter of time before the dumb bastards turned on him.

Posted by: Anonymous | Dec 9 2005 6:50 utc | 37

A recent poll of Americans indicates that they think that Germany is making an “unsatisfactory” contribution to the War on Terrorism. I assume this opinion is based on Germany’s well publicized opposition to the war in Iraq.
I have found that a lot of Americans are unaware that German military forces are present in Afghanistan and have lost lives there.
What are our “oil interests”? Well, it has become clear to the USa that Saudi Arabia is not a stable ally, but before we can saw them off politically and economically, we have to establish an alternative source of SUV juice.

Posted by: ralphieboy | Dec 9 2005 10:33 utc | 38

malooga
i am an activist
in my work & what little time that is left outside of it
i presume slothrop is a teacher so also presume that there is activism
it has always been my presumption that many of us here are activists – directly or indirectly
malooga, i would repeat that u s imperialism is the principal enemy & is the one that needs to be defeated
i do not diminishthe failure of other systems
& perhaps you have not read my posts correctly as i have no particular respect for the new emporers in china except perhaps their capacity to play the long game
europeans are complicit in the project of the u s empire at their peril

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 9 2005 14:12 utc | 39

It’s gonna be a long, hard slog, folks, check out this article from Newsmax, the Fox News of Internet websites:
“DUBAI, United Arab Emirates — Despite President Bush’s optimism on Iraq’s reconstruction, the country appears set to pump less crude in 2005 than last year’s disappointing showing and far less than under Saddam Hussein.
The only bright spot for Iraq’s oil sector, hampered by unrelenting insurgent attacks on its infrastructure, is that near-record oil prices have softened the blow by boosting export earnings…”

Posted by: ralphieboy | Dec 9 2005 14:52 utc | 40

Why do you think the Bush Administration decided to go to war against Iraq?
Protect our oil interests –> 17 %.
The perception of many in the US (as in the rest of the ‘West’) is that ‘oil’ – easy access to plentiful cheap or ‘free’ fossil fuels – is an inalienable right. Oil drove the US economy and made it what it is: how to give it up? How to accept that that state of affairs must come to an end? How to admit, finally, that the ME is sitting on the pot of gold and could grab control?
How to resist the temptation of using energy (accumulated, by technological advances, science, a powerful army, food ‘terrorism’ and the dominant position thereby created), to grab or get more?
Or just enough to keep going?
On the ground, it is easy to note that ‘oil’ ensures not only the life-style of individuals – home heating, moving cars, working machines, computers, maybe food.. and see the rise in prices! – but also drives the ‘economy’.
The relation must be particularly clear to a whole host of industrial and service workers.
Without it, everything collapses.
Farmers are so protected, they don’t seem to realise. That is my perception, I might be wrong. (In Europe they are clueless – mostly..)
‘Red’ states have been more supportive of an expansionist agressive empire – they must know on which side their bread is buttered. All the cultural flim-flam about abortion or religion, for example, is a smoke-screen, and implicitly understood as such by the protagonists.
Let the record show that not a single European country stood up to America’s invasion of Iraq.
Yes.

Posted by: Noisette | Dec 9 2005 18:42 utc | 41

NBC News/Wall Street Journal Poll conducted by the polling organizations of Peter Hart (D) and Robert Teeter (R).
“Do you think that the United States should or should not take military action to remove Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq?”
Should — Should Not — No Sure (%) ::
3/03: 65 – 30 – 5
2/03: 60 – 27- 13
1/03: 56 – 36 – 8
12/02: 59 – 30 – 11
9/02: 58 – 30 -12
Polling Report, page 8

Posted by: Noisette | Dec 9 2005 19:10 utc | 42

Just a little troubled by the wording of the poll:
“Why do you think the bush administration went to war”….. makes the question, a speculation on the motives of the bush administration. So givin that most people probably think the war is about oil, and that was the only answer containing the word oil, its easy to see that people attributed “to protect our oil interests” as the closest (to the truth) motivation by the bush administration. The fact that it is phrased “our oil intrests” is incidental
Also interesting is that 23% believe it was about getting Saddam, either as a vandetta or other undisclosed reasons, reasons other than “freeing the Iraqi people” (1%) from Saddam. And add to that 1%, 3% that think it was about “promoting democracy/peace in the middle east” — which brings in a paltry total of 4% that think the war was about anything that would benifit the Iraqi people. And as pathetic as that is, or properly cynical, it is noteworthy to recognise that the 36% who believed it was about “protecting” the USA have now lost their justification, through lack of evidence — that the only believable justification left for the war is oil or vendetta — which are justifications I doubt people were willing to go to war for. In this light, the poll would indicate people are quite willing to see their government (motivations) quite cynically, and apart from any honorable justifications. This is probably at the heart of (W)’s falling poll numbers and the “bar light” romance as revealed, but never quite reconciled by the “I was drunk” rational — forced into consciousness by a new dawn.

Posted by: anna missed | Dec 9 2005 20:22 utc | 43

The corrupt sloths must be rueing the day that they decided not to make the war over oil but over “freedom for the people of Iraq” and ‘preventing the smoking gun from becoming a mushroom cloud”.
A truly intelligent administration would have jacked the oil prices way up before the invasion and then used the increase in oil prices as ‘proof that the Arabs were trying to hold the good folk of the US to ransom’, gone in and blatantly seized the oil infrastructure without having to pretend to care about the local population.
If the prices had been jacked high enough prior to the invasion, a small drop could be pointed to as ‘proof of victory’ and everyone would be happy. Maybe not everyone who hangs out here but most people are pretty pragmatic when it comes down to a simple us or them equation.

Posted by: Anonymous | Dec 9 2005 20:51 utc | 44

@r’giap-
I didn’t intend to demean your activism. I know you work very hard and I respect you for it. I also know that you wear your heart on your sleeve and that it is in the right place (sorry for the awful mixed metaphor!). I was speaking in general of people who put on “holier than thou” airs.
europeans are complicit in the project of the u s empire at their peril
We simply disagree about the level of European culpability in the domination of the third world. And when I say Europe, I mean the leaders, not the publics. The European public is more educated and posesses a greater sense of justice than the US. But the EEC comprises a whole level of non-democratic, non-elected neoliberal officials, with little allegiance to their respective countries, and far more to their corporate masters.
@ anna missed-
“to protect our oil interests” : This is an example of a “push poll” question. Never ask a question you won’t like the answer to. Force the public to acknowledge that these truly are OUR oil interests. These polls aren ever sloppily worded; careful research goes into every word and phrase.
@ ? anonymous above.
Great comment. I never thought of how they might have done the invasion “the right way.” Better tell the big boys behind the curtain.

Posted by: Malooga | Dec 9 2005 22:07 utc | 45

I read the oil interest category as nearly 100% opposed to the war based on conversations with pro-war folks here. They get very heated when anyone suggests that the war was inspired by such tawdry motives. Only pro-empire folks who think it would be a good thing for the US to dominate the globe could answer “oil,” recognizing it’s strategic significance, and these people are just not that educated. The pro-war folk I know think it’s preposterous that anyone could entertain the notion that the US is an empire.
BTW, the most interesting thing about the survey was the obvious category that was left out: Israel. I’d love to see the “other” category broken down. I’d bet money that an Israel category was included it would come in at #7. Punch wouldn’t like that.

Posted by: lonesomeG | Dec 10 2005 1:16 utc | 46

I think it’s a big mistake to perpetuate this idea of some monolithic American Empire taking over the Middle East, simply because that hampers any solution. Bringing down America will accomplish little. I think there is an international cast of characters behind the Iraq invasion as many others had a lot to gain from Hussein’s removal. Several attempts had been made, including assaination, I understand, but nothing worked. It’s an extremely complex geopolitical situation and before any conclusions are drawn, it should be understood, so correct action can be taken. I also think there has been a lot of double crossing and that the PNAC crowd was used. They are flopping around quite impotently now.
Maybe it goes back to when our monetary system was privatized and became international.
Here is a perspective that might interest some of you and some ideas about the Internet as a political tool. Can’t link so it’s a little lengthy.
In his final speech as President, Dwight Eisenhower labeled this elite “the military-industrial complex.” This was only 40% of the complex. The banking-oil complex has always been part of the larger complex. This co-partner is uniquely international.
Until May 15, 1948, when Truman recognized the newly formed State of Israel, the American Establishment had been overwhelmingly WASP. Yet the Establishment was divided over this issue in 1948. The incarnation of the older Establishment, Secretary of State George C. Marshall, told Truman a few days before the recognition that he would not resign in protest if Truman recognized the State of Israel, but he would surely vote against Truman in November, if he voted, which as a military man, he didn’t. Somehow, this threat did not stop Truman. The Middle East from that day forth became a permanently divisive issue inside the American Establishment.
This five-part complex constitutes the largest concentration of capital in the world, and therefore is the most influential special-interest group in the world.
This special-interest group has its headquarters in New York City, but it rests on the cooperation of the political heads of oil-rich Muslim states. If the flow of oil stops because of a series of radical Islamic revolutions, the entire complex goes down, and with it the West’s economy. Fractional reserve banking is lubricated by oil.
All sides understand this, including Osama bin Laden. All sides of the Establishment have a special interest in keeping the oil flowing. No side trusts the free market to allocate oil, for oil is not strictly a free market commodity. It is controlled at the wellhead by civil governments. Problem: the civil governments of Arabia are no more stable than the tribes and sects of Islam.
The foreign policy Establishment is internally divided. The hawks in 2001 feared Iraq more than they feared Iran. Because of this division, President Bush got his war. The pro-Israel hawks are behind him. So is the military-industrial complex, which is reaping untold billions.
The banking-oil complex is out of the loop. The old timers in this segment of the Establishment worry that an overly aggressive American nationalism will threaten the stability of the Middle East, and hence threaten the flow of oil. These are the grand old masters of the complex. They are being ignored, just as they were ignored in 1948. They accepted a fait accompli in 1948. I do not think they regard the present Bush administration as a fait accompli. It is a temporary disruption that will go away in 2009. Their job is to find a replacement candidate in each party who will bring most of the troops home.
Today, the Internet is serving as the institutional equivalent of the university in 1967. But this time, there is no geographical location of the protest movement. Guns therefore cannot control it. Nothing can control it.
The foreign policy Establishment remains divided. Its primary mouthpieces are print media, which are rapidly losing market share. There is no way for this process to be reversed. The revolution was.
Years ago, Peter Drucker observed that any new technology which reduces the costs of production or distribution by 90% will inevitably replace the existing technology. The Internet has reduced the cost of distributing information by more than 90%. The cost of our time has increased, but we volunteer this time, either as producers (website owners) or consumers of information (readers).
Add to this the incredibly low cost of the Forward button.
The Internet is serving as a termite nest to the frame houses of the Establishment in every nation. It is providing facts and editorials that undermine the reading public’s confidence in the official sources of information.
There is no unifying voice on the Internet. There is no all-encompassing worldview. Most important of all, there is no centralized group to buy off.
The Internet has no strategy. That is why it constitutes a true revolution. It is a technology, not a strategy. The nature of this technology is counter-strategy. The cost of transmitting information is borne by people who volunteer their time and who have Forward buttons. This has never happened before.
The only thing I can think of that is comparable was the system of Roman roads in the first century. Every religious group could take its message across the empire. The infrastructure was maintained by the state.
The printing press was similar in the sixteenth century, but presses were expensive. They could be targeted by censors. Paper sales could be traced. The ideological conflicts of the Protestant Reformation and Counter-Reformation were conducted with atoms, not electrons. The Internet revolution isn’t.
The Internet is the incarnation of Hayek’s concept of the spontaneous order. We have never seen anything like it before. The degree of spontaneity is spectacularly high because the transaction costs are so low. You can get your two cents’ worth into the discussion for well under a penny. This fact is changing the world.
There is no overall strategy . . . not in anything connected with the Internet or to the Internet. It really is spontaneous, as far as non-Calvinists can affirm the existence of spontaneity.
This means that tactics are everything. Those critics who keep hammering away at the war in Iraq are like men with jack hammers. If they don’t quit early and their internal organs don’t fail, the highway will soon be a shambles.

I’m not sure about the exact explanation of the ME situation but I do believe the tentacles spread far and deep in a web primarily about business that will ultimately have a political solution. To focus too much on The USA as the criminal force is simplifying and shortchanging the full understanding of the international syndicate we are faced with.

Posted by: jm | Dec 10 2005 1:20 utc | 47

That was from a piece by Gary North entitled: Tactics, Not Strategy, in the Antiwar Movement.

Posted by: jm | Dec 10 2005 1:47 utc | 48

“If we lose this war, oil will be $100 a barrel, and if we win, it will be, like, $25 a barrel.” ~ Donald Rumsfeld, American Defense Secretary
that’s what the american public was told about “our oil interests”.

Posted by: DeAnander | Dec 10 2005 2:02 utc | 49

yes deanander
i shall call it henceforth the dialectics of diesel

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 10 2005 2:20 utc | 50

jm-
Thanks for this interesting read. You quote Gary North:

The banking-oil complex is out of the loop. The old timers in this segment of the Establishment worry that an overly aggressive American nationalism will threaten the stability of the Middle East, and hence threaten the flow of oil.

I’m wondering how the question of petro-dollars vs. petro-euros fits in. Some argue that a reason to dethrone Saddam was to prevent his switching to petro-euros – and to preserve the $ as reserve currency. Would this not count as the banking-oil complex as being “in the loop”?

Posted by: Hamburger | Dec 10 2005 13:27 utc | 51

@ jm. Yes.
————
The excuses and rationales for the Iraq invasion were tailored to suit the American public (as were other rationales in other wars):
— an evil, dangerous leader (another Hitler, etc.) who needs to be gotten rid of. This reinforced the desire for agression abroad, far away, and self-protective feelings at home, as well as pleasing namby-pamby ‘democrats’ who would charmingly like to see Iraqi women wearing Ralph Lauren shorts, and so on. The warriors, the fearful, the progressives could all latch onto that.
— the presence of ‘economic’, that is, energy interests, as it is perfectly obvious that the US cannot function without cheap energy (true of other countries too.) This argument – not stated outright but hinted at, wink wink – appealed to the hard-headed strategists who went beyond personalia, were keen on US domination or just control of economic circuits. That the US oil industry was itself very dubitative about the plan escaped them entirely.
Beyond that, ‘finishing off what Poppa started’ is nonsensical, and throws world geo-politics into the frame of some kind of blockbuster family saga bestseller, where personal motives win out.
That not a single one of the rationales turned out to be based on facts (e.g. Iraqi WMD), that not one of the stated aims has been accomplished, except getting rid of Saddam, simply shows that the US public has been hoodwinked, and continues to answer questions according to a pre-set frame.
The wordings of polls themselves have impact on opinion: they set the socially acceptable alternatives.

Posted by: Noisette | Dec 10 2005 16:35 utc | 52

The wordings of polls themselves have impact on opinion: they set the socially acceptable alternatives.
Thanks, that was what I was trying to say, but I couldn’t express myself as well as you did.

Posted by: Malooga | Dec 11 2005 5:23 utc | 53