If Cole is right, and our primary opponent is still the Ba’ath, and the fighting in Iraq has little or nothing to do with the war against terrorism, then sooner or later — and probably sooner — it’s going to become politically impossible for the administration to continue spending $2 billion a week to keep 150,000 U.S. troops in Iraq.
Back to Main
November 3, 2005
WB: A Visit From Juan Cole
Comments
I can’t believe this happened. I was in the same room as Billmon (to see Juan Cole), and I didn’t even know it!
Posted by: Anonymous | Nov 3 2005 22:39 utc | 1
The Baatistas were well prepared, if you want to unravel the puzzle go look for Nizar al Khazraji. (Interviewed Sept 2002 BBC very sympathetically) Last heard of in Copenhagen, then in Centcom, then in Iraq in March 2003.
Amer Al-Hashemi, a Sunni, Najib Al-Salhi, and
Wafiq Al-Samarrai. All of them with good chums in the UK FCO.
http://www.williambowles.info/iraq/khazraji.html
Zakarwi is a will o the wisp with a supersonic flying carpet enabling his presence like a good martini…any place, any time, anywhere.
If Cole is right, and our primary opponent is still the Ba’ath, and the fighting in Iraq has little or nothing to do with the war against terrorism
What the fuck are USA doing there then?
Still the Ba’ath?
So you approve of action against Syria next?
Posted by: Friendly Fire | Nov 3 2005 22:59 utc | 3
I didn’t know that kool-aid was served at the Whiskey Bar.
Posted by: Very Disappointed | Nov 3 2005 23:02 utc | 4
Time and money
Although $2Billion a week is a relatively small amount compared to the overall budget, it is a cumlative drag on the economy both financially and phsycologically. And if leaving=loosing, then certainly fighting on and on, day after day, year after year has it’s own corrosive effect, especially if the “lines” don’t move.And with resistance growing for people to volunteer and just imagine today’s 8 year olds in 10 years being asked to fight in Iraq, we’re still in Iraq?
So we have a $250+ billion/year drag on the economy and the drip drip of time and death. This corrosive effect will continue to weaken support, until another horrific terrorist attack here in the US, which will have completely unkown effects
To the question of a phased withdrawal, I have no fears of the effects of this. Orders should be given to the Pentagon to begin a phased draw down immediately. Will peace keeper forces be needed to maintain stability, probably. But we must begin to remove the fuel to the insurgency. I has doubt Zaquari really commands all that many fighters. My honest opinion is that there are large pockets of independent fighters all sharing the same violent goal, removal of US troops. Their effectiveness is die to the silent support of the overwhelming majority which both detests the violence but resents the presence of our troops.
Posted by: Gasper | Nov 3 2005 23:18 utc | 5
out of narrative necessities – us foreign policy & clearly some liberal commentators are obliged to create monumental entitities whether they are al qaeda, baathists, foreign jihadis, salafists – whatever
they cannot see what is before theor eyes – that they are waging a war of occupation & the people of iraq are developing all the apects of a people’s war. they are doing everythig they are supposed to do – creating both legal & illegal apparatus, they are working with religious groups, they have intelligence amongst the puppet army
the epeople of iraq are waging a war for their liberty & for their nation. is that so impossible for an american of the kind of learning of a professor cole or a billmon to understand
it might not have all the heroic imagery of a che guevara or a cabral or even a mao tse tung – but it is clear whoever is their military leadership are profoundly succesful in their operations
that they fight very dirty indeed only underlines the fact of how the americans are fighting this war – in the utmost illegality & very dirty indeed – the bombardments of town & villages, the wholesale collective punishments of communities, the arresting & incarceration of the male population
the third world is not a toilet for the u s & their thinkers to shit in
they are a people & a culture of genius & learning
the way they fight this illegal & immoral occupation os also an expression of that genius
it seems to me that the only populatin not participating in this war against the u s is the kurds who will be doublecrossed by the americans when it is more convenient. the kurdish question is was & will always be a separate & distinct question
the waging of war is not a dinner part as mao sd – but it is also not the plaything of toytown strategists
i prefer the profoundly ambivalent but informed texts of robert fisk
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 3 2005 23:22 utc | 6
to paraphrase talking heads song, the united states is waging the war it has been doing for its life – a war against the poor – a war for profit
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 3 2005 23:29 utc | 7
r’giap the people of iraq are waging a war for their liberty & for their nation. is that so impossible for an american of the kind of learning of a professor cole or a billmon to understand?
I am wondering about that too. All wars are about the economy of the people fighting it those. The US tries to change a quite social economy into a neolib dreamland. Of course people fight back. Of course it is nationalism, the common lived exprience of a better world, that is their rally argument.
Zarquawi was and is the commen Emmanuel Goldstein. What is new about that?
Does anyone think there is any real hope of finishing, or winning, or leaving this war?
How can we live American without controlling worldwide oil markets?
The whole point of the American invasion was to set up shop in Iraq in order to keep the Middle East in chaos. Unable to act in concert against Israel, act in concert on the oil markets, act in concert against us. No oil embargoes, no selling oil in Euros, no contracts with China, and so forth.
Ya don’t see none of that goin’ on now, do ya?
If we win, finish or leave this war, then whomever among the Iraqis who control the oil wells afterwards will start selling oil in Euros, along with Iran and the Saudis, and our economy collapses.
Payback. Blowback. Crash.
That’s a large part of what got us in there — preventing oil from going off the dollar standard.
Economically, we can’t leave without extreme risk of trimming our own toenails — right below the knees.
That’s why no Dems are doing a damn thing to end this war. It would be an economic disaster to end it. A bigger economic disaster than continuing it.
We’re so far up the creek, we’re paddling over boulders, but we can’t handle the rapids downstream if we turn around.
We’re good and stuck.
To the bright boys in the White House tonight, going all in and nuking Iran almost makes more sense than admitting defeat and throwing themselves on the mercy of the American people.
What are they going to say?
“I’m sorry, but the American Way of Life is now highly negotiable.”
Posted by: Antifa | Nov 4 2005 0:05 utc | 9
So, the diabolical Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and his band of fanatical fundamentalist fighters, Al Qaeda in Iraq are, to use the wonderful term I recently learned from Billmon, a MacGuffin!
I have learned so much from Juan Cole and have read perhaps 90% of his postings since he started his blog. He is a great guy, very earnest, and always returns my e-mails. However, like a good teacher, he has taught me enough to disagree with him. I like to check with other sources: Angry Arab, Robert Fisk, John Pilger, Dahr Jamail, Abbas Kaddim, the Jarrars, Riverbend, Rahul Mahajan, etc. I find Professor Cole to be slightly naive at times, and far too willing to trust the Bushite junta. About two months ago when Katrina hit and the “We don’t have enough oil refineries in this country” meme made the rounds, he believed that the Bush administration would actually build refineries and create blue collar jobs where people can make 50-70K/yr. Snort. Then there was his dust-up with Helena Cobbban where they eruditely discussed what we should do in Iraq–i.e. Strategy–without first stating what the Bushites and their own objectives were, thus rendering the whole argument, gooblygook.
So I too agree with r-giap, b, and Anifa’s posts here. Unfortunately, Billmon’s last few posts have been on the weak side. Still I would enjoy having beers with either of them.
they cannot see what is before theor eyes – that they are waging a war of occupation & the people of iraq are developing all the apects of a people’s war.
So blowing up Shi’a women and children with a car bomb in a marketplace or in front of a mosque is a “people’s war”?
the epeople of iraq are waging a war for their liberty & for their nation. is that so impossible for an american of the kind of learning of a professor cole or a billmon to understand
The Ba’ath ruled Iraq on behalf of a Sunni elite for four decades. They want it back. The Shi’a religious parties and the Kurds don’t want to give it back. They are fighting a ethnic civil war, Bosnia style. Is that so impossible for a wacked out Stalinist fruit cake to understand?
Apparently so.
Posted by: Billmon | Nov 4 2005 0:35 utc | 11
Is it so difficult to understand that when an Iraqi has a relative(s) accidentally/intentionally/summarily killed they seek vengeance. It is the primary motivator for our ‘Big Game’ (Big War) football fans … the NASCAR set …
Iraqi veterans of the Iraq-Iran war, Gulf war I, etc, whether they be faithful Ba’athists or not gravitate towards providing thier expertise in tactics, operations, planning, logistics, intelligence and counter-intelligence simply because they have the skills and they’re Iraqi.
Nationalism, tribal and family bonds are the force behind the Iraqi insurgencies resistance to an illegal invasion and a brutal, unjustified occupation where they’re future and thier childrens futures are being stolen, along with anything else that isn’t bolted down, whilst thier communities are collectively punished or destroyed with contempt.
The very ‘alienness’ of the occupation forces (Coalition) contributes to the animosity.
The Ba’athists may provide a skeletal structure for a significant portion of the insurgents, but this is as R’Giap has mentioned, a ‘peoples’ fight.
If the insurgency is just Ba’athist ‘dead-enders’, oh how I loathe that phrase, just wait until the Shia actually, formally demand the coalition forces withdrawal … they have certainly not forgotten thier losses because of US betrayal during the uprising following Gulf War I nor the burden they primarily bore during a decade of sanctions, not the Ba’athists & Sunnis.
And the Kurds don’t trust the US an inch either …
If the Shia as a mass are let loose, the bloody conflict so far will be as nothing more than a prelude …
It is only the political calculation re the ‘end game’ and the authority of thier religious leaders that restrains the majority of the Shia … otherwise they’d happily be killing occupation (Coalition) troops in vastly greater numbers …
Do not fall into the trap of accepting the memes and ‘catch-phrases’ of the Pentagon and political & military talking heads. The descriptions, narratives and even individual choice of words are all part of the propaganda mix. One might as well believe Goebbels old speeches as the carefully prepared bullshit of our military spokesmen and briefers … has anyone forgotten the Vietnam briefings, or the utter falsity of the same in Gulf War I & II ?
Every time we have killed an Iraqi, of any particular faith, we have created at least a part-time insurgent and probably 3-4 supporters of the insurgency. What do they then do, if they do not imeediately die or assuage they’re desire for vengeance/justice ? They search out an organised element of resistance … and how many have we killed and detained so far ?
Jeez, its a replay of the damned War of Independance only the ‘ragheads’ are us, goddamnit.
Posted by: Outraged | Nov 4 2005 0:38 utc | 12
the third world is not a toilet for the u s & their thinkers to shit in
they are a people & a culture of genius & learning
This is not inconsistent with what Cole is saying. Are they not also a culture of political genius? Can it not be said that Ahmed Chalabi fooled the neo-cons? Why is it so outlandish to propose that the Ba’athists are doing the same now?
Posted by: Anonymous | Nov 4 2005 0:53 utc | 13
I read yesterday that the Iraqi military is trying to recruit former Ba’ath army.
Posted by: Laura | Nov 4 2005 0:54 utc | 14
you do not have to be a wacked out stalinist fruitcake to see what is happening is a people’s war. u s imperialism does not have a monopoly on terror. terror is also used by the resistance as it has been for centuries. it is bloody but it is nothing new
robert fisk has been very clear on this point – on the idea of a civil war & what constitutes a civil war – & in whose interests etc –
your implicit but unstated belief in the natural ‘goodness’ behind every enterprise run by the empire is counteracted by the facts. it is not just a few bad apples whether it is in abu ghraib or in the supreme court. the whole barrel is rotten. the barrel itself is rotten
& from your tactical tabletop billmon how would you instruct the people of iraq to wage their war – under conditions & details – you yourself deign as dignified
this war has as much to do with the balkans as rupert murdoch does to the truth
it is a convenient bloody history that hides extremely complicated relations that not any historian of note has been capable or rendering into whole pieces
everybody but the empire is capable of deeds you demonise the resistance
the continued bombardemnt of the people of iraq north west east & south is mysteriously absent from your concerns. the hassan family is just a messy piece of business that is the result of bad policies
of course there are cleaner & more silent ways of killing people
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 4 2005 0:56 utc | 15
perhaps you prefer the kissinger school of killing where it is always done with the highest profundity & from afar
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 4 2005 0:58 utc | 16
Let’s try an unsophisticated thought process as an imaginary generic Iraqi … before the Invasion of my country I had a working health and education system, probably a job, electricity (to a degree) and the local law and order situation meant it was safe to walk the streets and buy a cup of coffee … I did’nt have to be protective of my family or my home 24 hours a day, nor fear rampant kidnappings motivated by criminal or ethnic/religious issues … I did’nt have to fear a pair of 500lb iron bombs falling from the sky or a suicide bomber detonating at a checkpoint or market … there was’nt small arms and crew served weapons fired indisriminately 60-80 times a day throughout the major population centres as a result of relatively unsophisticated, but relentless attacks on the coalition and thier (human sandbag) Iraqi proxy troops, resulting in even more random death and destruction, primarily amongst my fellow innocent but unlucky civilias …
Saddam was an utter brutal bastard, and I’m glad(?) he’s gone, but jeez I pray and hope these damned yankees would just pack up and piss-off so I can try to get my life and country back.
Was that so difficult ?
Posted by: Outraged | Nov 4 2005 1:06 utc | 17
“I read yesterday that the Iraqi military is trying to recruit former Ba’ath army.”
Just what the Army needs: more moles and informers. Once you have abused a cat and it hates you, trying to feed it wont stop it from hating you.
I read Cole regularly…. and he knows a lot, but his conclusions are often wrong.
Most of the violence in Iraq from non-coalition forces is (I think) natural resistance, while some of it mirrors the true reasons the USA is there… to control the area and the resources (meaning it is mostly just greed).
And everytime someone innocent is killed by Americans, there will be 10 new insurgents. I have been reading some about how al Qaeda is in Iraq, and in some areas the sunni resistance is kicking them out.
One thing we know for sure: this war was started on a pack of lies, and it continues on a pack of lies, and we may never hear the real resons behind what made people do what they did.
But for the Cheney administration, it is about oil and control and protecting Israel (why they feel the need to do that, I don’t know).
The US and it’s military is the real bad guys here…..
Posted by: Susan | Nov 4 2005 1:15 utc | 19
An inadequacy you, billmon, share w/ many others in the polyphony of dissent to the war is justifying the need to confront and dismantle problems largely the products of our own creation (islamism, nuclear proliferation, third world poverty) with moral justifications; no easy matter for a fellow traveler, because the violent blowback on US foreign policy is justified more than is the US response to defend itself against blowback. What a bitch.
Posted by: slothrop | Nov 4 2005 1:23 utc | 20
Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime.
– Ernest Hemingway
War will exist until that distant day when the conscientious objector enjoys the same reputation and prestige that the warrior does today.
– John F. Kennedy
Posted by: Outraged | Nov 4 2005 1:31 utc | 21
“One would have been the path of recognition, in which the American people woke up and started asking the hard questions about how we got into this mess, and demanding answers that didn’t consist entirely of inane slogans about how the terrorists “hate our freedoms.”
That path would have still led to the war in Afghanistan — it was inevitable — but we might at least have come to some glimmer of public understanding that the real war was a war of ideas and influence in which America would need all the allies it could get, both inside and outside the Islamic world.” billmon the dirty war
your words not mine.
perhaps yes i am common old ftuitcake but yours is another slice of cake entirely
the implicit belief in a just war or at least a just cause
a refusal to make any connection between what & how al qaeda came into being – that was already written by people like gilles keppel & many other european commentators who knew a thing or two about islamic fundamentalism
no it seems you do not want to make that connection – maybe during the war against latin & central ameruca you did not want to believe coke entered the cities of the empire through your intelligence aganecies & that too had a prehistory aptly written by dr mccoy in ‘the politics of heroin in south east asia’
no your narratives were those of the bad guys & your muscles – whether refined or brutal – it didn’t matter
perhaps you need to be reminded again that iraq & al qaede have nothing in common – perhaps they do now – but even that is a supposition not really supported by the facts
your implicit belief in a just war carried out by your nation denies any validity or more importantly, the humanity of the struggle against the occupation
no your images like that of the mainstream press is the suicide bomber – an easy & inadequate analysis of what constitutes resistance in iraq
your nation had no right to meddle in the affairs of a soverign nation as it has done again & again & then statrts to tell sob stories when the hatred of the occupied finds its voice
how would you want the ‘necessary war’against islam to be waged – where do you draw the lines
do you want a decent war
when i last looked they don’t seem to exist
i may very well be a fruitcake but i do not cover myself in the soft & seamy pornography of white skin privilege
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 4 2005 1:32 utc | 22
2819 Official number of people killed on 9-11
2236 Official number of coalition forces killed in Iraq
428 Official number of contractors killed in Iraq
247 Official number of coalition forces killed in Afghanistan
2236 + 428 + 247 = 2911
2911 > 2819
Conclusion: We have killed more of our forces “defending” ourselves than were killed on 9-11.
Draw your own moral.
For anyone interested about the civil war in lebanon, there’s a 15 part (though often poorly subtitled) film documentary “the War of Lebanon.” Available on a bittorent near you.
Posted by: slothrop | Nov 4 2005 1:40 utc | 24
Not so simple. It’s part tribal warfare, part political faction, part nationalism.
An oppressive dictatorship is a pressure cooker where tension mounts steadily. What we’re seeing is the release of that pressure. A sudden coup, army disbanded, with no controlling force to replace it. An out of control frenzy has replaced it and taken on a life of its own. Simply getting it under control is the factor and that will probably happen by a natural calming as the cycle runs its course.
You can analyze it till your purple, blue, and red, but the situation is an entity of its own with a unique destiny that remains to be seen.
Posted by: jm | Nov 4 2005 1:42 utc | 25
fruitcake? stalinist?
one reason to visit moa for me are the turgid jeremiads of rgiap. What kind of stalinist fruitcake writes ‘…sitting here readin benjamin, listening to steve earl.’?
cool
Posted by: slothrop | Nov 4 2005 1:43 utc | 26
Reposted from “Today in Iraq”:
Jaun Cole is singing his (and Hellena’s) old song again about the ‘poor Shia victims who resist being pulled into a Civil War with the Baathists/Sunnis. He writes today:
“One worries that if Shiites keep being mercilessly targeted, sooner or latter the ex-Baathists will get their wish for a civil war.”
As usual, he reflects the mass media point of view and ignores the historical facts that the Americans accompanied by their Shia allies mercilessly target the Baathists/Sunnis every day and Shia police patrol after the Americans pull back.
He refuses to embrace the historic fact that the Baathists/Sunnis got the civil war they didn’t want when his candidate for the Nobel Peace Prize Sustani made peace with the Americans and British in the Southern Shia country allowing them to send their forces along with Shia recruits north to “merciless target” Batthists/Sunnis.
But Cole has, like Bush et al, always hated the Batthists/Sunnis (its documented – although in Bush like terms about ‘human rights’, etc), which is way he, like Bush et al, argues against an American pull out.
Beware the hawk in doves clothing. He may play the left side of the talking heads media table; but he is at the same table.
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.03.05 – 11:35 am | #
malooga – exactly
& not so very different from th cry of the Master when slavery was to be abolished – the master would say – all hell will break loose – not even thinking for a moment that it was the master himself who had brought & created that hell
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 4 2005 1:49 utc | 28
cnn on the same page & without irony – calles for focus on i e d’s as the prinicipal weapon & then announces that hostile fire brought down a helicopter
this is a cruel joke
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 4 2005 1:56 utc | 29
Iraqi Oil Reserves are estimated to be from 112 – 250+ Billion Barrels of oil. A barrel is 42 gallons. Iraqi oil costs $1-5 to produce. Profits, therefore, can range between $10-75/barrel. At $50/barrel, quite reasonable considering how prices will escalate as Peak Oil approaches, we are talking of a profit of northwards of 10 TRILLION DOLLARS.
If the US chose to be fair, there is plenty of baksheesh to go around. But, when has the US, the Bushites, and Multinationals EVER been fair. So, the killing will continue, and the oil will benefit no one, for the foreseeable future. As I said before, everything else is a MacGuffin.
I’m not really sure that humans are the brightest species on earth; my cats would never let the othe starve.
Yes, R’Giap, a Marine Cobra Gunship by a Strella SAM, by all accounts …
Unless we stand down and pullout entirely this is just going to go the way of the Soviets in Afghanistan … oops better not mention our glorious success in the big A, the newest, most dangerous, narco-state yet, just brimming with pseudo-democracy and chock full of the rule of law and human rights.
Way to go, team Freedom & Democracy ! NOT !
Oh, yes, this whole thing about the newset latest, imported IEDs, is a co-ordinated, concocted smear … as I’ve posted in detail before, the first primitive hollow charge explosive devices using the then named ‘Munroe Effect’ were used by the Brits in WWI … relatively simple hollow charge explosives allowed a small group of German Fallschirmjaeger assault engineers to sieze the fort of Eben-Emal in the opening stages of the drive on France in WWII … the SOE and OSS amongst others trained various resistance forces how to make or modify thier own explosives to take advantage of the inverted conical explosive configuration to generate a focussed charge and plasma jet … every bloody arms manufacturer in the world has been making weapons dependent on hollow charges for bloody 60 years plus … shyte, readily available domestic chemicals, a glass bottle, a spatula and a glass cutter and you’ve got a hollow charge explosive that will penetrate two inches or rolled homogenous armor plate cooked up in your own kitchen …
Hezbollah and the Iranians have imported/introduced these new ‘highly sophisticated’ explosives … fuckin’ hell, give me a break … it’s the darwinism of the battlefield effect.
Posted by: Outraged | Nov 4 2005 2:15 utc | 32
ô it’s the standard line, outraged
everything the ‘other’ does is evil sinister & inherently diabolic
everything the master does is misguided, mistaken, but essentially just & correct in form & substance
outraged you have supplied in many threads, many posts – very precise detail & links which exemplify quite clearly that this is the development of a people’s war
i know that you would not pursue that line as rigidly(or turgidly) as i do – but the overwhelming evidence is of exactly that & also common dreams – hardly a hotbed for us wacked out stalinist fruitcakes – every weeks has a series of articles that prove this point beyond any reasonable doubt
i have used your links, the work of rogert fisk & others but especially of the bloggers who are working from within iraq itself (including i might add – those of american soldiers)
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 4 2005 2:25 utc | 33
I read above this war is a combo of ethnic strife, nationalism etc.
This insurgency is about oil. The Sunni’s know damn well if the country stays as is, the revenue from oil will be concentrated in the Kurd and Shia areas. The constitution is a federalist document leaving the Sunni’s out in the cold.
You’ll likely see three things. The Kurds will continue to see support from the US and the US will calm the Turks down when a Kurdish state is created. The Shia will make alliance with Iran as is currently happening. The Sunni’s will be pissed about the oil and the Saudi’s will fund them along with Syrian Baathist.
With civil war in Iraq, the Saudi’s have less compitition in world markets for oil and the price stays high. Pipelines are blown, shipping lane aren’t as safe etc. The Sunni’s are used to power and they have nothing to lose.
Other oil producing states including Iran have no incentive to see peace in Iraq either. The civil war will keep oil prices high and oil producing countries fat, because of the unrest and the terror premium. Peak oil just exacerbates it.
Posted by: jdp | Nov 4 2005 2:28 utc | 34
“everything the ‘other’ does is evil sinister & inherently diabolic
everything the master does is misguided, mistaken, but essentially just & correct in form & substance”
There is a psychological term for this, when we attribute the best of intentions to our own mistakes (daydreaming while driving in traffic, for instance), and the worst intentions to others (as when they inadvertently cut you off, while doing the same). I can’t remember the term. Can any one here remember it, or look it up? It has been on the tip of my tongue for five years. Sort of like the “Pathetic Fallacy”, but not that…..
Any help?
“i may very well be a fruitcake but i do not cover myself in the soft & seamy pornography of white skin privilege”
speaking for myself, i thought the “stalinist” modifier was a harsher tag than the fruitcake one. god what a gorgeous trope.
here’s a question for the studio audience .. does anyone else here on alabama moon see Billmon The Caucasian as a blogger who shinkwraps himself in pornographic privilege? i certainly dont. god what a clumsy trope.
in any case, it might be worth a pause to recall the bitchsoaked righteousness of the comment threads that mothered MOA’s necessity.
Posted by: bianco | Nov 4 2005 2:42 utc | 36
@R’Giap
To me it’s as if our society is existing in the surreal false reality of the first ‘Matrix’ movie. Those who should know better cannot see the forest for the trees.
The indocrination is entrenched and constantly reinforced by highly sophisticated multi-faceted means, and I’m not referring to just the corporate media, all self-reinforcing.
Even the most casual analysis of our foriegn policy over the last 100-110 years cannot lead one to any other conclusion than that we are serial agressors who claim the self-righteous high moral ground whilst committing the most fundamentally barbaric acts.
We delude ourselves that its not a result of our ‘system’, corporate capitalism run amok, but just a few ‘bad eggs’ from time to time. Not the ‘system’ but each of the administrations every four years … a few bad apples at Abu Ghraib … chronic, ingrained, cyclical superficial analysis married to collective amnesia … forget-act-forget-repeat … absolute utter bullshit, yet people still suck it up, even if its just as background noise …
If we don’t wake up and face our constant rationalizations re our acts and our policies over generations the ‘others’ will ‘enlighten’ us, very brutally indeed.
We have not been nor are we the champions of Democracy.
We have not been nor are we the bringers of the Rule of Law and Human Rights.
We have not been nor are we the hieght of enlightenment or civilization.
We cynically hide behind the banners of those memes while killing and raping Terra for fucking corporate profit … no wonder the State Department is incensed by Venezeulas Chavez emphasing the 37 million Americans living in poverty ( a particualrly conservative estimate I would suggest).
Posted by: Outraged | Nov 4 2005 2:59 utc | 37
whether my trope is clumsy or not is of small importance.
what i am suggesting that even the most liberal inteligentsia is capable of covering the crimes of their rulers in a language that masks its real & actual obscenity
i do not see a tactical tabletop – i see the hasan family butchered at a checkpoint by eager & frightened soldiers, i see their daughter covered in blood & in her pain crying out that one day he will drink the blood of americans & knowwing in that oment that little girl understod at the deepest possible level what this war was about
if i responded to billmon by insult it was not gratuitous but felt. this is work for me – i do not do it lightly – & i have no regret whatsoever at my political cultur & howit was arrived at. there are moments i am not proud of but their foundation has never crumbled in me
when you argue – you argue – i have not made it personal – nor is it – i simply find in these last two posts an enormous amount i differ with & i certainly have an enormous difference with billmon’s riposte
but i will not retreat from the position already stated – this is a people’s war – given the fact that it is very early in its inception it is clear that it is not fragmenting but consolidating
the facts in this case speak for themselves – whatever trope you want to wrap them in
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 4 2005 3:15 utc | 38
‘here’s a question for the studio audience .. does anyone else here on alabama moon see Billmon The Caucasian as a blogger who shinkwraps himself in pornographic privilege? i certainly dont. god what a clumsy trope’
For what its worth … personally I believe it’s an unfortunate case of both parties buttons being pushed and therefore responding prior to the recommended ‘hold breath and count to ten’ before commenting … then again, maybe not … best thing to do when confronted with the perception of an uncomfortably confrontational comment in such a forum is simply to ignore it and move along, perhaps …
Posted by: Outraged | Nov 4 2005 3:19 utc | 39
Hey Billmon this is off topoc,
But you might want to focus some attention on Norquist unpopular proposal’s on the ballot in california on Nov. 8..
Some are predicting a rerun of faulty exit polls already.
See this
for details
http://www.davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr75.html#footnote
Posted by: patience | Nov 4 2005 3:35 utc | 40
Sometimes I wish the United States would get invaded so that we could show the world what a decent, honorable, insurgency looks like.
Posted by: Recall | Nov 4 2005 3:47 utc | 41
“We are still, in other words, fighting the war that Commander Codpiece started in March 2003 — the one against Saddam’s regime, even though Saddam himself is folding his underwear in the pokey.
“And those Saudi and Algerian and Egyptian jihadists slipping over the border from Syria? They’re mostly cannon fodder — suicide bombers and IED planters, or pack mules for same. They may even think they’re working for Zarqawi or those like him, when in fact the Ba’athists are pulling the strings.”
Um, this has been both the official and generally accepted view all along. And in Right Blogostan, it’s been the prevailing grasp of things for quite some time now.
But I don’t know of anyone who believes that the insurgency, or resistance, is a Ba’ath or even Sunni monolith. It’s not now and never has been an ethnically or politically unified whole, but draws upon widely diverse elements and factions in a very loose and often internally tumultuous endeavor. That’s one key to its strength and probable longevity. It is IRAQI.
Posted by: Pat | Nov 4 2005 4:04 utc | 42
Interesting that http://www.debka.com metioned the Zarqawi issue a long time ago. Bin Laden probably wishes to get killed, so as to become an idol, an Islamic Christ for the rebellion in Saudi Arabia – the REAL issue.
The US is isolated, and does not realize the deep Mediterranean an “Eye for an Eye” as seen in Mafia relationships. Arabs are not Texas blacks – killing Black Muslims stopped the insurection, Killing Arabs will only give rise to a Palestinian style issue.
Arabs remember and will strike in revenge, on their terms and time frame. Every “innocent” Arab jailed and released is now a potential terrorist. There is no end at this “stage”, the seed was planted way back, but forgotten in the annals of US history.
Time to lift the drawbridge, and stock the dungeon.
Posted by: Peter Lapin | Nov 4 2005 4:10 utc | 44
Oh yes, forgot….. Shia are religious, like Iranian Shia, Bath /Sunni are secular…… Are we backing the right group????
The Syrian and Lebanese are secular, and appear to be harsh, because they keep the religious fanatics under control…. think carefully about this.
Is this an omen of things to come. We are liberating the religious ignorants of both worlds. Scarry stuff.
Posted by: Peter Lapin | Nov 4 2005 4:15 utc | 45
Hello, please check Conflict re-engineering and
same on DU 🙂
-HJ
Posted by: Henry James | Nov 4 2005 4:15 utc | 46
“But I don’t know of anyone who believes that the insurgency, or resistance, is a Ba’ath or even Sunni monolith.”
Scratch that. I do know of those who believe that the insurgency is a Ba’athist or Sunni monolith. Some people are, in a general way, inordinately fond of monoliths, and hard pressed to entertain anything else.
Posted by: Pat | Nov 4 2005 4:20 utc | 47
Rgiap’s “people’s war” matches agency, department, and combatant command assessments. Cole’s very limited Sunni Ba’athist war does not.
Posted by: Pat | Nov 4 2005 5:39 utc | 48
It occurs to me that the disappointment of Fitzmas is showing. Not very pretty but I’m sure we can move past it.
The other dynamic which is causing some dissension is the unannounced attempt by the demopublicans to use the current situation for political advantage. A day late and a dollar short. Doubtless many will debate whether this is incompetence or deliberate, but really since the outcome will be the same (shot the wad) does it matter?
Sidney Blumenthal? I think that was his name – he worked in Clinton’s Whitehouse; he was on BBC World last night attempting to push all responsibility for the Iraqi invasion and murders onto the repugs.
The Beeb interviewer wouldn’t let him get away with it and kept up the “With respect Mr Blumenthal you’re not answering my question.”
I suspect Blummy was in the UK testing the water if they come up with some strategy for Iraq as demopublican policy they will need to know the Brits won’t blow it away.
Bliar will though. Someone in the US owns him and I bet it’s not the ‘liberal’ (liberal what a joke) elements of the demopublicans, state dept or CIA. Which leaves…….?
Prof Cole may be running a demopublican flag up the pole to see who salutes. Yawn pass me those talking points”.
Next time a demopublican drops by MoA spouting his/her, smarmy, finger pointing ,’it ain’t me babe’ flim flam, I vote we just ask the person straight:
“Are you really that stupid or do you just think we are?”
Posted by: Debs is dead | Nov 4 2005 6:01 utc | 49
From the moment the Revolutionary Guard disappeared into the crowd as the Americans rolled into town, it was clear what was going to happen. Even Poppy Bush knew better than to roll into town during the first Gulf war.
Iraquis aren’t stupid. With Saddam eliminated, they noticed the new oppressor also has rape rooms. From their point of view there is no difference between Saddam and George the Third.
—
I recently visited my father in law in a nursing home. He had another visitor, an aging well-dressed dyed-blonde slim colleague who was discussing the volunteer work of the club they both belonged to. Seems she had just given away a gazillion samples of her own beanie baby collection in care packages for the troops in Iraq. “They give them to the children there, you know, in order to help collect intelligence on the insurgents.”
I had to get out of the room. All I could think of was some poor child wanting a stuffed animal, pointing out some neighbor or relative — whose home then would be invaded by US guardsmen who would then send him to a torture chamber. Can you imagine the psychological damage done to that child when he/she is confronted with the consequences? And even if a child gets a free beanie baby, will that mark them as a collaborator? Our troops are like the nazis, hunting down the resistance, with no concern for the children, cavalierly using them to destroy. The woman made me sick. Later my husband naively asked me why I suddenly left the room. I told him “because she was such a nazi!”
Posted by: gylangirl | Nov 4 2005 6:04 utc | 50
jdp – Another way to look at it, since peak oil is actually a series of peaks within a series of economic expansions, is to find some precursive to invade the largest remaining undeveloped oil fields on earth, thereby in one shot, spiking peak oil into a uniform declinal, stupendously profitable, beautifully modulated, laser beam.
All are welcome, but you play, you pay.
If … they can hold on. And why not? They own the printing presses, they own over 37% of our estate, they lure away our child soldiers, they control our laws and freedoms, and we pay them a toll every year for the privilege of riding that laser beam down life’s electro-glide highway.
Appropo of nothing, saw two brand new Strykers today, coming from a port, going to an airbase.
Their most striking feature, from my perspect, was a large, bone-ash grey, voodoo skull decal
on each front quarter panel, at child’s level.
America’s new tattoo, Dia de los Muertos-style.
Posted by: tante aime | Nov 4 2005 7:08 utc | 51
of all the comments in this thread, and there are many very good ones, the story told by gylangirl hit me the hardest.
No doubt the blond lady thought she was doing a good thing, applying the nazi label to her is harsh but correct. I am sure that most nazis thought they were doing the right thing too.
Posted by: dan of steele | Nov 4 2005 7:26 utc | 52
That is a powerful story, gylangirl. With a little research you could write that up, expanding the ramifications of “helping our troops” and get it published, at least making some good out of the pain and anger. Even if it changes one mind….
Maybe it makes me a sap, but gylan’s anecdote about the exploitation of the already exploited innocents to fuel the torture machine cut right through me as well. I’m going to have to walk away from all of this for a little while. I’m not one who generally turns away and buries my head in the sand, but I need a little while to get rid of all of this poison that has been accumulating in me.
Posted by: Monolycus | Nov 4 2005 7:47 utc | 54
No matter how clever our assessments about who is killing whom and why and how, I can not get past this. And I can not, for the life of me, understand how it could possibly be worth the cost.
Posted by: Monolycus | Nov 4 2005 8:07 utc | 55
From “Today in Iraq”
“excerpt (roughly translated from Spanish) of a conference given by Iraqi sociologist Subhi Toma in Madrid last June 24:
“My name is Subhi Toma and I live in Paris, since I was a long time opponent of Saddam Hussein’s regime, and was imprisoned for a year; later I was forced to abandon my country because of the authoritarian regime and settled in Paris (…)
(…) the people of Iraq has a legitimate right to expel the occupation. The Iraqi people, who is very well informed about its rights — being an ancient cultured and educated people and a secularized society it knows the text of the law — bases itself in the UN Resolution. The UN declaration of 1975 which was unanimously approved by all member countries recognizes that an occupied people has the right to resist with any means available. To resist by all means. The declaration in fact recognizes that UN member countries must bring help to the resisting people. The people of Iraq is resisting by all means available. It resists politically: demonstrations, strikes and sit-ins are organized, articles are written, and there’s also armed resistance.
In my country there’s many Resistance groups, there’s about 30 recognized ones. They represent the opinions, the political currents, the confessional groups, they represent both the right and the left in society. Among the Resistance groups there are, to begin with, former baathists, of Saddam Hussein’s party; since they had the financial and organizational means they participate in the Resistance. But the most important Resistance group is the group of former cadres of the Iraqi national army. Professor Iñaki Gutiérrez of Teheran told us about the Iraqis revolt against British occupation; one of the demands of the Iraqis during that rebellion was the creation of a national army. The Iraq national army represented all groups, all ethnic groups, 80% of the members of the Iraq national army were Shias. It’s a Resistance group, it fights against the Americans and it considers its mission to liberate its country. But there are other groups participating in the Resistance: there’s the nationalists, the Arab nationalists, the Kurd nationalists; there’s the islamists, the moderate islamists but there’s also extremist islamists. The left is also part of the Resistance.
The Resistance represents all schools, all groups of Iraq society. But you are told since Iraq is under occupation that what’s going on in Iraq is terrorism and that behind it is a certain Al-Zarqawi. Every day they talk about Al-Zarqawi. But in Iraq no one knows him. The information about Al-Zarqawi proceeds from the US State Department. We’re told he’s a man with a wooden leg; every day they tell us: Al-Zarqawi is in Basra, tomorrow he’ll be in Mosul, and they give us information, constantly updated. But nobody knows him and nobody sees him. Apparently Al-Zarqawi knows the schedules of the military leaders, of the government ministers, can summon up his aides whenever he wishes. But 200,000 American and British soldiers, together with the world’s most important intelligence agency, the CIA, can’t manage to find him. To the Western public opinion they tell that what’s going on in Iraq is not resistance, but that it’s extremists, terrorists, but they don’t tell them that every Resistance group issues communiqués to say they are against terrorism. The Resistance groups say they are against attacks directed at the civilian population, they are equally against the attacks against foreign NGOs. They are opposed to attacks against foreign journalists. Who organizes, then, these terrorist acts?
The Resistance only attacks the occupation troops or the Iraqi police or Iraqi army that protect the occupation troops. The Resistance only attacks the occupation army and the collaborationists. It’s the same as in every Resistance movement. We saw what happened during the occupation of Spainby Napoleon’s troops. Even the Spanish clerics joined the Resistance. In fact they were the first to repel the French troops. Everybody took part and it was normal and legitimate. During the occupation of France by the fascist army everybody participated in the Resistance against the occupiers and their collaborators. The Iraqi people has as much right to resist as any other people. This is what’s happening today in Iraq, it’s simply this. (…)
In conclusion: the Iraqi people embarked on a liberation war, but it’s a war of liberation different from all similar wars. During the Vietnam war there was international solidarity with its people. During the Algerian liberation war there was a solidarity movement in all Arab and Third World countries with the Algerian people. Even in the case of Palestine, PLO was supported by Arab countries until a few years ago. In my country nobody supports us, the Iraqi people can only rely on its own strength. No country dares, not even neighboring countries, nor Arab or Musulman countries. Americans tell us Syrians support them, but this is false. The Iraqi people relies only on its own strength. But the Iraqi people needs that solidarity. What you can do is at least inform public opinion that this people has a right to resist. This is a simple solidarity act that you can perform.
Thanks.”
Sorry, it was from several weeks ago, and I encountered it while attempting to close some of the 200 windows open on my browser.
Juan Cole speaks with a great deal of authority on matters Middle Eastern. He speaks the languages. He follows the news. But perhaps in his recommendation of a continued occupation of Iraq we can see the influence of oft-repeated US Administration propaganda.
It’s probably important to remember that Iraq has only become a sectarian mess under the US/UK occupation: the Ba’ath party was founded and continued to operate as an explicitly secular organization. Apparently the invaders regard the party as anathema primarily because the previous leadership had insisted that natural resources (i.e., oil) belonged to the people of the nation. I believe, however, that an important secondary consideration has been the pan-Arab inclusiveness of the Ba’ath philosophy.
Were the Shi’a oppressed by the Ba’ath party? Not particularly. Not until, at the urging of Bush the Elder, they rose up against Saddam and were struck down by his army — under US supervision. Perhaps there always smoldered some resentment about the oil-poor provinces receiving an equal share of oil revenue, and perhaps (to judge from clauses in the recent near-constitution) the Shi’a always believed that the Iraqi government was a little too secular, but the recently-released British survey clearly indicates that the universal enemy is the occupying Coalition rather than fellow Iraqis.
It does appear that the recently-trained Shiite forces have been operating as death squads. The recent capture in Basra of two British soldiers, wearing traditional Iraqi jallabahs and wigs, carrying insurgent-style arms, driving a loaded with explosives rigged as a bomb, is certainly suggestive of a role for the Coalition forces which steps a little outside the maintenamce of order.
With the suppression of independent news media, the irregularities in control of polling places, the secrecy of candidate slates in the January election and the ambiguities in the Constitution referendum, the trumpeting of Political Progress has been nothing but a farce to this point. Thus it is no surprise that Chalabi, who has no credible Iraqi constituents but many PNAC supporters, now occupies both the powerful position of Deputy Prime Minister and the lucrative position of Minister for Oil.
Democracy is not on the march in Iraq. There is no effort being made to promote democracy in Iraq. The continued occupation of the country is, in fact, standing in the way of any evolution toward representative government in Iraq. Continuing the occupation in any degree only compounds the crime.
Posted by: reiii | Nov 4 2005 10:03 utc | 59
This view of al Zaqarwi isn’t new.
There is an excellent new book about the “construction” of al Zaqarwi – Insurgent Iraq: Al-Zarqawi and the New Generation by Loretta Napoleoni.
In my endless looking at military pics (for artwork) saw this bit of pathetic erotica, jessica simpson doin her part.
Posted by: anna missed | Nov 4 2005 10:24 utc | 61
i think pat & i – from different points politically – arrive at the same point morally – that is – what we see morally & humanly – is chaos & that the innocents are the ones who pay – always
& i imagine that both outraged & pat – from having been part of an apparatus are offended deeply – humanely(because what they are witnessing is the profoundest stupidity) & at a professional level(what they know practically is the inherent incompetence of the current strategies -if tsupid policies amount to strategy)
& a innate fear what this modern world needs is ore concentration & less noise/agitation
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 4 2005 10:46 utc | 63
& reiii,
thanks for that, I’ve wondered (& commented) about this for some time now, well put consideration.
Posted by: anna missed | Nov 4 2005 10:47 utc | 64
“I find it hard to believe, for example, that the Ba’ath are so out of touch with reality they think the Shi’a would let bygones be bygones, and agree to the restoration of a Ba’athist dictatorship, just because the evil Zarqawi and his men had been lined up against a wall and shot.”
It is important to remember that a large part of the Sunnis, Ba’athists included, think that they are the majority in Iraq. They claim to amount to app. 60 % of the Iraqi population and that the notion of the Shi’a being the majority is just a part of the widere conspiracy against them.
Such thinking obviously creates a widely different picture of “after the third Ba’athist coup” then the premis that is assumed in your comment.
Posted by: Kjevis | Nov 4 2005 10:48 utc | 65
Don’t feel too guilty, all you fine people. You didn’t vote for it.
Like New Mexican Governor, Bruce King , once said…
“It’s a Box of Pandoras”.
Posted by: jm | Nov 4 2005 10:49 utc | 66
& gylangirl
there is a beautiful & painful poem from the german poet erich fried written during the vietnam war – telling the story of a town being bombarde & then a week later – toys were dropped from some care package & fried demanding that perhap they could have reversed the process – at least the children would have had something to play with before they were bombarded (it came from a penguin anthology of socialist verse – a book unavailable – & if anyone know of how to find it – i would be very appreciative)
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 4 2005 10:50 utc | 67
& after a little sleep, am not sorry that i bit back at billmon just wish, as i generally do, that i could do it a little bit more articulately
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 4 2005 10:56 utc | 68
To me…
A “Stalinist Fruitcake” is a rather unusual concept. Wouldn’t’ve thought of it.
Posted by: jm | Nov 4 2005 11:16 utc | 72
annamissed
yes, i think pat & i from different points of the compass – & (you also in vietnam) have witnessed practically the bankruptcy of political policy that ends in the endless death of innocents & an actual regression in the possibility of political developments
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 4 2005 11:18 utc | 73
so unworried about this prticular insult that perhaps i will have a t shirt printed with -on one side – hegel’ angel – the materialis friends of the hegelian dialectic & waced out stalinist fruticake on the other side
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 4 2005 11:21 utc | 74
… perhaps i will have a t shirt printed …’
RAOTFLMFAO
Posted by: Outraged | Nov 4 2005 11:25 utc | 75
And here’s the tragedy.
A “Stalinist Fruitcake” T-shirt would travel through society unnoticed and unappreciated. The humor missed… By and large.
Posted by: jm | Nov 4 2005 11:36 utc | 76
what i have understood at the first here at moon & this is in relation to debs question is that a site is not just commentary but it is also a collection point of informed facts – sourced facts – & that if people are to be active in opposition to this war they need to be armed with the facts from all points of the compass
bob dylan speaking more eloquently than i, of white skin privilege :
“jewels & binoculars hang from the head of the mule” – visions of johanna
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 4 2005 11:48 utc | 77
The War So Far: a Failure Worse Than Vietnam
by Patrick Cockburn in Baghdad
“The need for the White House to produce a fantasy picture of Iraq is because it dare not admit that it has engineered one of the greatest disasters in American history. It is worse than Vietnam because the enemy is punier and the original ambitions greater…”
Posted by: Outraged | Nov 4 2005 12:27 utc | 78
I don’t know shit about Iraq and I don’t have an opinion about it.
I’m inclined to go with the “if you’re not wanted get out” (notwithstanding the consequences) because Occam’s razor says it’s the quickest way out.
Prof. Cole’s vast and real knowledge/experience does not inspire me with confidence, because it is vast and real. I think Billmon is a bit naive or too easily seduced. The road to Hell is generally paved by experts.
If I may indulge in a sword & sorcery analogy, I think this is an Aquilonia vs Cimmeria war (from R.E. Howard’s CONAN), meaning the end result is that the more evolved state will sink to the levels of tge barbarians — and in Howard’s mouth that is not a criticism, he considered that the natural level of mankind.
It’s not too hard to preduct a massive collpase of the US State based on this. Iraq OTOH will remain what it was.
Posted by: Lupin | Nov 4 2005 12:41 utc | 79
Just when we had that lovely HegelsAngel/StalinistFruitcake T-shirt all ironed out, someone went and brought up the AscentofMan image.
The USA state is not more evolved than the Iraqi one – war is not zoology.
Posted by: Anonymous | Nov 4 2005 13:08 utc | 80
Just a bunch of Ba’athist dead-enders heh ?
The latest Al Qaeda statement appeared as majority Shias began the three-day religious holiday of Eid al-Fitr, which ends a month of fasting during the Islamic holy month of Ramadan.
In Sadr City, a large Shia area of Baghdad, crowds of children wearing new outfits formed lines to get on Ferris wheels and other rides at small local amusement parks.
But security by police and local militias remained tight, given all the insurgent attacks that occur in the capital, including suicide car bombs, drive-by shootings and roadside bombs.
“We cannot fully enjoy Eid because of all the explosions we hear,” said Karar al-Aboudi, 25, the owner of clothes stall near one park. “We have no reason to celebrate under occupation and terrorism. We pray to God that in the next Eid, our country will be stable and free.”
Could be the Iraqi equivalent of John Doe, Karar al-Aboudi, is possibly a supporter of the ‘demonized’ Sadrists, but he certainly ain’t a Ba’athist or a Sunni …
Posted by: Outraged | Nov 4 2005 13:23 utc | 82
Now, let me see, the Sunni’s are ~15-20% of the total Iraqi population …
Yet up to 45 percent of ALL Iraqi citizens support attacks on British and U.S. troops …
In Maysan province (um, that’s the one that’s predominantly non-Ba’athist Shia, is’nt it ???) Up to 65 percent of ALL Iraqi citizens support attacks on British and U.S. troops …
In Iraq overrall, 82 percent were “strongly opposed” to the presence of coalition troops…
Yep, the InsurgencieS in Iraq are obviously just a bunch of Ba’athist dead-enders, yep, yep, yep …
Or as Rumsfeld would say ‘Goodness, gracious, me, is’nt it obvious ?’ …
Survey: Fight for “hearts and minds” lost
BAGHDAD — Millions of Iraqis believe that suicide attacks against British troops are justified, according to a secret military poll commissioned by senior officers and released by The Sunday Telegraph in Britain.
The poll, commissioned by the British Ministry of Defense, shows that up to 65 percent of Iraqi citizens support attacks and less than 1 percent think allied military involvement is helping to improve security. It demonstrates for the first time the depth of anti-Western feeling in Iraq, more than two and a half years after the war commenced.
The nationwide survey also suggests that the coalition has lost the battle to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people, which both Pres. Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair consider fundamental to creating a safe and secure country.
– snip –
The poll also revealed that 45 percent of Iraqis believed attacks against British and U.S. troops were justified, rising to 65 percent in the British-controlled Maysan province. Overall, 82 percent were “strongly opposed” to the presence of coalition troops; 67 percent felt less secure because of the occupation, and 43 percent believed conditions for peace and stability had worsened.
The poll, conducted in August, also debunked claims by both the U.S. and British governments that the general well being of the average Iraqi is improving…
Posted by: Outraged | Nov 4 2005 13:41 utc | 83
Hard in a nationalist era not to identity oneself with one’s state:
“my state more evolved = I am more evolved”
Harder, probably, not to take one’s own society’s side in a discussion when nationalist cheers urge us to confuse the individual and social levels of history.
So I listen to the sage advice of a Clint Eastwood character: “A man’s got to know his limitations.”
and remind myself that there is no I in TEAM
– and try to realize that I am like a man standing in some “1984” arena of diehard fans, (Go Fighting Firemen!) for whom it would be foolish, or perhaps merely expensive, to boo my team during the daily monitored Minute of Hate.
But I am also like a son of man who knew to choose death rather than deny that the soul in his body, or any body, was not the soul of God.
And I am a man who is being asked to cheer as my nation’s powerful sociopaths keep trying to get me to help kill God by the myriads on the pretense that people are
foreigners,
communists,
evil,
in the way,
expensive.
But the fact is simply that they wish to replace God and so they ask minions to shoot whenever they see Him alive.
I realize this explanation makes me tempted to idealism. But it helps me disagree when my friends and trusted advisors encourage me to confuse myself with a nation.
Posted by: Anonymous | Nov 4 2005 13:42 utc | 84
@citizen: by using the word “zoology” you reveal a rather apalling Santorum-like mindset.
I’m not a true Marxist but generally, I don’t think a military dictatorship is on the same level of societal development as a democratic society.
Further I tend to believe that the less religion (and I don’t mean spirituality) plays a part in society, the more advanced it is. (The US doesn’t particularly fare well in that respect.)
Still, believe what you will.
Posted by: Lupin | Nov 4 2005 13:43 utc | 86
Oops, sorry for the bold text … missed an unclosed tag …
Posted by: Outraged | Nov 4 2005 13:44 utc | 87
@Lupin
my latest post was by way of reforming my first-draft thought to something more like: societies do history differently than species.
Please do me the favor of taking my too hasty critique on these hopefully more thoughtful grounds.
Posted by: citizen | Nov 4 2005 13:59 utc | 88
annie:
“excerpt (roughly translated from Spanish) of a conference given by Iraqi sociologist Subhi Toma in Madrid last June 24:
I posted the above; you’ll find the speech at the Comité de Solidaridad con la Causa Arabe:
“El pueblo iraquí resiste de forma política y también con las armas, y siempre ha rechazado el terrorismo”
Posted by: zig | Nov 4 2005 14:37 utc | 89
Billmon,
So blowing up Shi’a women and children with a car bomb in a marketplace or in front of a mosque is a “people’s war”?
you seem to have an inordinate amount of belief in Pentagon’s spokespersons… and seem to have never heard about the grand imperial maxim “Divide to conquer”.
One question: in the current Iraq context, what form do you think US counterterrorism operations would take?
Posted by: zig | Nov 4 2005 14:45 utc | 90
I demonstrated against the war in Afghanistan in 2001, October/ November, can’t remember when exactly (stood next to Stephen Maturin of all people, who was with Andromache), because I objected to what I later found out is called “theatrical micromilitarism”.
The US whacking yet another failed state like Afghanistan – using a sledgehammer to crack a nut – was unlikely to have a good outcome IMHO, and made about as much sense as invading Haiti usually does.
Because it prefers to act bilaterally and exceptionally in all things, the US was never going to act through international channels to get OBL, even supposing it could – see how impossible it’s been for Peru to get Fujimori, for example.
And now it turns out that it’s part of the “plan” never to get OBL’s “representation” in Iraq (and by implication, OBL as well??) because it’s more useful to the US for them to run free?
God that is $2bn/week well spent. Additional costs for Afghanistan how much?
(BTW, always thought RGiap was a self-styled Maoist, with a side order of Ho Chi Minh Thought.)
Posted by: Anonymous | Nov 4 2005 15:19 utc | 91
So blowing up Shi’a women and children with a car bomb in a marketplace or in front of a mosque is a “people’s war”?
Billmon,
Given that you accept (assumed):
the manipluated fiction of Zarqawi and Al-Qaeda in Iraq,
the false policy intentions re true Democracy in Iraq,
have written frequently about the ‘Death Squads’ (both sides),
are aware the Iraqi Mukhaberatt (Intelligence service) has been stocked with ex-Ba’athist agents and operatives and contrary to Iraqs supposed sovereignity is directly managed from Langley,
the recent capture of Brit SAS conducting highly questionable covert paramilitary Ops in Basrah,
that just maybe some of those car boms are ‘ours’ ?
Military occupations and the resistance to them are brutal, ruthless affairs. There are no ‘Good Guys’.
‘Extra-judicial’ killings, ‘collateral’ damage, summary executions, coolective punishments against civilian poulations, etc, are unfortunately a by-product of bitter, contested Insurgencies.
The Coalition troops and especially the US military has clearly and demonstrably abandoned compliance with the ‘Laws of War’ and the Geneva Conventions on far too numerous occassions, so why the moral high ground re car bombs ?
The phrase ‘Fog of War’ relates but does not truly describe the murky multifaceted nature of the horrors and injustices inflicted by all parties involved in conflicts such as Iraq.
All parties are ‘playing’ for keeps … ruthlessness engenders retaliatory acts of ruthlessness … extremism begets extremism …
The Blackwater lads that were carefully targetted and ‘hit’ by the Iraqi resistance on the outskirts of Fallujah so long ago … were not inoccents escorting ‘Kitchen facilities’ …
The Iraqi resistance does not typically benefit from killing thier own, whether they be Shia/Sunni/Kurd, just as we would’nt typically benefit from killing our own. Yet it is a given that thier operations in urban areas must inevitably incur ‘friendly’ casualties by the very nature of the targets in the operational environment.
Insurgency movement planners/commanders consider ‘collateral damage’ during operations planning just as we are aware formal military forces do, or are supposed to. However, severely limiting the acceptance of friendly ‘collateral damage’ would also severely restrict overall effectiveness. The insurgents would be using the same justification/rationalization we did for dropping the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki … destroying the city of Fallujah … the greater good re the ‘end game’ objective … we call it ‘military necessity’ and use it to abrograte the ‘Laws of War’ and the Geneva Conventions’ at will …
Given the fractured nature of the Iragi insurgency, payback, revenge, inter-tribal, inter-faith and inter-ethnic rivalries would also be an element of the non-military targets, especially in the case of those considered collaborators.
However, given all the above one should also consider that it benefits the Occupation to conduct covert and deniable operations of all natures to engender and maintain the desired public belief in ‘terrorists’, ‘murderers’, ‘ragheads’, ‘extremists’ etc as opposed to labels such as resistance fighters, freedom fighters, anti-occupation fighters, Fedayeen, etc.
A Civil War scenario or the imminent threat of Civil War serves the needs of the occupation in that it tends to encourage limited acceptance of the status quo, however loathsome, as opposed to something that could be even worse, i.e. exploiting fear via imagination, of the ‘unknown’.
Therefore conducting covert Ops directly, directing them by others or encouraging certain types of acts using proxies supports the philosophy of ‘Divide and Rule’ against the insurgency which justifies the continued presence of the ‘Coalition of the Willing’ regardless of the will of the Iragis and also ensures that members of the Interim Govenrment don’t step too far out of line or they could mysteriously end up on a garbage heap with a 9mm pill in the back of the skull too …
Given that some of the suicide car bombers have recently resulted in attacks on what should be regarded as total innocents, i.e. marketplaces, have involved drivers taped to thier steering wheel and/or gas pedal, one has to wonder just exactly who bound them so and whether they were still alive at the time … it just does’nt fit the Modus Operandi of muslim extremists who decide to become living bombs and generally do so out of a combination of faith and idealogy and commit a conscious act of thier own choosing at a precise considered/moment, i.e. activating the triggering device … nope, something definitely smells fishy in Denmark.
Also consider that terror, humiliation and fear are tools that is being utilised by both sides in many diverse ways, Abu Ghraibs photos’ and detentions, extremist beheadings, summary and ‘mock’ executions performed by the insurgents and occupation forces.
In the case of the Coalition these are almost necessary tools given the ratios of Iraqi’s against occupiers and the 80% plus number of Sunni and Shia (excluding Kurds) who have wanted the Coalition out since April 2003 …
Quite a number of the terrorist acts in Saigon and other cities in Vietnam in the early and middle years were orchestrated by the ‘Good Guys’ against the ‘Innocent Civilians’ to maintain the ‘terror’ and maintain ‘legitimacy’ …
Hmmm, what was that novel turned movie with Michael Caine ?
Ah, yes, the ‘Quiet American’ … sadly, nothing has changed …
Posted by: Outraged | Nov 4 2005 15:37 utc | 92
This is pretty damn simplistic, Billmon, and mean-spirited to boot:
The Ba’ath ruled Iraq on behalf of a Sunni elite for four decades. They want it back. The Shi’a religious parties and the Kurds don’t want to give it back. They are fighting a ethnic civil war, Bosnia style. Is that so impossible for a wacked out Stalinist fruit cake to understand?
Iraqi infrastucture has been destroyed. The country is now “game” to any number of competing factions, indigenous as well as foreign, each with its own interest in mind. Ba’athists, perhaps, but you fail to mention such others as Iran and Israel.
Meanwhile, the tragedy is that the Iraqis are having to fight desperately for their lives.
Posted by: aleanor | Nov 4 2005 16:01 utc | 94
@Outraged
Your last post about sums it up, and quite excellently, I might add. Took us a while to get there. I’m surprised at Billmon as cynicism and insight are usually his strongest suits. I hope he replies to this thread again.
@zig-
Thanks for the posting, and sorry I cut of the posting info as I was closing the window.
a visit from juan cole…fruitcake…fitzmas….
lotta people already in the holiday spirit, i see
Posted by: b real | Nov 4 2005 16:10 utc | 96
The Iraq insurgencies are a monolithic block of Sunni, Ba’athist, ‘dead-enders’, heh ?
An Inventory of Iraqi Resistance Groups:
“Who Kills Hostages in Iraq?”
Global Policy Security Forum
By Samir Haddad and Mazin Ghazi
Al Zawra
September 19, 2004
… These groups and small cells started to grow gradually, until they matured to some extent and acquired a clear personality that had its own political and military weight. Then they stated to pursue combining themselves into larger groups. The majority of these groups do not know their leadership, the sources of their financing, or who provides them with weapons. However, the huge amounts of weapons, which the Saddam Husayn regime left behind, are undoubtedly one of the main sources for arming these groups. These weapons include mortars, RPGs, hand grenades, Kalashnikovs, and light weapons.
Their intellectual tendencies are usually described as a mixture of Islamic and pan-Arab ideas that agree on the need to put an end to the US presence in Iraq. These groups have common denominators, the most important of which perhaps are focusing on killing US soldiers, rejecting the abductions and the killing of hostages, rejecting the attacks on Iraqi policemen, and respecting the beliefs of other religions. There is no compulsion to convert to Islam, this stems from their Islamic creed, their reading of the jurisprudence texts and historical events, and their respect for the directives and appeals of the Islamic organizations and religious dignitaries.
These groups believe the Iraqis are divided into two categories. One category — the majority – is against the occupation, and the other — the minority — is on the side of the occupation. The resistance considers those who reject the occupation, whatever their description might be, to be on its side. The resistance considers those who are on the side of the occupation to be as spies and traitors who do not deserve to remain on Iraqi territory, and hence they should be liquidated…
Posted by: Outraged | Nov 4 2005 16:18 utc | 97
@slothrop
Wouldn’t be the first time, but still you’re a little cryptic. What, exactly, sounds like freudian projection?
@aleanor
Yes. It is quite well known that Kurdistan, at the very least, is crawling with Israeli agents.
Iraq has become flypaper for all manner of agents provocateur. Juan Cole has always minimized this element of the narrative, perhaps in the cause of rigorous scholarship, perhaps not wanting to leave himself open to charges of “conspiracy thinking.” But Billmon has writen of all of this extensively in the past, only for it to fall through the memory hole–the distorting bottom of a pint glass, seen darkly…
you asked about a psych condition definition above. I thought it might be ‘projection’
Posted by: slothrop | Nov 4 2005 16:24 utc | 99