There’s a complete flood of nonsense in the news these days.
I thought it would be fun to come up with a series of points, arguments or questions, and document the supporting facts. This is a hypothetical weapon I would use in conversation with an uncle who served in Vietnam and is a right-wing Republican.
The questions might be breadcrumbs along a trail that leads to my point of view, against the current US wars and war in general, and that these wars do not help me or him.
As I reflect, I realize that he is not interested in the greater good, only himself and those close to him. Okay. Nothing wrong with taking care of your family especially when there’s danger all about, (Shaft!) or times are tough.
But he in a way is betting that the war will continue, has found a way to gain from the aggressive point of view.
So the breadcrumb trail is a little hard to imagine in real life. But the questions I would like to have documentary background for (taped interviews, accredited journalism with on-the-record sources) are ones such as
a) what happened on 9-11? what was up with the Israelis, the stock market, some kid in Brooklyn who knew a week in advance, those military exercises at the same time, US trained members of the 19 hijackers?
b) of course Bush was wired during the debates with Kerry, but what was up with Kerry? windsurfing? How out of it do you have to be to make presidential campaign appearances in a shorty wetsuit, when your 60 years old.
Okay, those aren’t the real questions. Those would be about where your tax money goes. Oh, he works for the government. More government, more promotions etc.
How about if we provoke them they might attack us again? He lives in the country, quite safe really.
Would you want your children to go to Iraq? Probably not, so that might be a good question.
Do you pay any attention to economics and do you see what’s happening to the US economy? I guess the answer there is “more than you know. Why do you think I work for the government?”
My favorite question of course is “what the hell is wrong with you” and I’m sure the converse is true as well.

Posted by: jonku | Nov 21 2005 8:23 utc | 3

Jonku…..Kerry?….Maybe he appeals to the younger set. Beach boys and such.

Posted by: jm | Nov 21 2005 9:43 utc | 5

Jonku,
That struck me funny about Kerry. The 60 year old magazine idol.
I think you ask a great question. How do we communicate with these people? Or anyone who we have mixed feelings about, resentment about their views included.
I’m not a good one to ask. I feel like shouting at them them, so I choose to ignore them, instead. They cause an unpleasant feeling in my gut, and increased adrenalin, so I have troubles there.
I do think it would be good to try, though. I have a leftie friend who’s a master at it. She can talk to any right winger in complete control. I’ll ask her. Establishing common ground first I think is a key. And some sort of trust. Not with me, though. I know I’ll get upset.

Posted by: jm | Nov 21 2005 11:15 utc | 7

Hey, it’s my birthday! I’m 44 years old today, and wish all of you a Happy My Birthday! Those of you who want to can come by and join the party at miserableannalsoftheearth.blogspot.com , where any number of pleasant, generous strangers have responded to my shameless blogwhoring and pitiful birthday pleas for attention by coming by and giving me some.
Or, you know, you can just ignore me, and I’ll just sit here in the dark.

Posted by: Highlander | Nov 21 2005 15:48 utc | 9

Cough.
this is the link

Posted by: Argh | Nov 21 2005 16:20 utc | 11

Rumsfeld as quoted by AP:
“The enemy hears a big debate in the United States, and they have to wonder: ‘Maybe all we have to do is wait and we’ll win. We can’t win militarily. They know that. The battle is here in the United States,’ Rumsfeld said on Fox News Sunday.”
” … Cheney said there was nothing wrong with open debate … Rumsfeld … acknowledged that questions about war ought to be debated … ”
Maybe they should have said, “We need to debate them over there otherwise we’ll have to debate them over here.”

Posted by: jonku | Nov 21 2005 16:52 utc | 13

*** OFF-TOPIC QUESTION ***
is it just me, or is google (and blogger) disappearing from the net for hours at once ?
notice: i live in austria.

Posted by: name | Nov 21 2005 16:53 utc | 15

source watch abramoff

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 21 2005 17:52 utc | 17

Highlander-
* H A P P Y * B I R T H D A Y *
may all your blogwhore dreams come true.
————————————-
…and just as an aside to above remarks- the reason presidential candidates go out and do stupid pet tricks is so that they appear virile and healthy. The electorate then gets the message that if they vote for someone, that person will not croak mid-term.
it’s sort of like male peacocks displaying their feathers for females…except this is for a whole electorate. Healthy males have nice looking, glossy feathers that say “Come to Daddy.”
I’m looking forward to the day when all male prez candidates do live television coverage of their prostrate exams. (cough)

Posted by: fauxreal | Nov 21 2005 18:01 utc | 19

lonesomeG- ROTFLMAO.
I totally did not see that. and yes, and I’ve got freudian panties to go with that freudian slip.
LOL.

Posted by: fauxreal | Nov 21 2005 18:38 utc | 21

Lt. Gen. Odom’s (Ret.) Gives 9 Reasons for Withdrawal [from Iraq]
The general says that the main reasons for staying in Iraq are actually the best arguments for leaving. Video from C&L

Biographical Highlights
Lieutenant General William E. Odom, U.S. Army (Ret.), is a Senior Fellow with Hudson Institute and a professor at Yale University. As Director of the National Security Agency from 1985 to 1988, he was responsible for the nation’s signals intelligence and communications security. From 1981 to 1985, he served as Assistant Chief of Staff for Intelligence, the Army’s senior intelligence officer.
From 1977 to 1981, General Odom was Military Assistant to the President’s Assistant for National Security Affairs, Zbigniew Brzezinski. As a member of the National Security Council staff, he worked upon strategic planning, Soviet affairs, nuclear weapons policy, telecommunications policy, and Persian Gulf security issues. He graduated from the United States Military Academy in 1954, and received a Ph.D. from Columbia University in 1970.

Posted by: Outraged | Nov 21 2005 19:51 utc | 23

I’m not certain why this hasn’t gotten more play, but even mainstrean media outlets are reporting that some of the misinformation used to take the US to war in Iraq was obtained via torture.
I hadn’t been aware that it was possible for the Bush administration to fall any lower in my opinion, but maybe I misunderestimated how stupid and evil they are.

Posted by: Rowan | Nov 21 2005 20:45 utc | 25

…it does seem a bit redundant to deconstruct the President’s recent speeches on that subject. Yet, to fail to do so would be to passively accept the Big Lie technique–which is how we as a nation got into this horrible mess in the first place.
But you forget that what drove the acceptance of it was their “capers” – 911, Anthraxing of Top Journos & Legislators, refusal to capture anyone responsible or even seriously investigate. Otherwise this would never have worked. In Germany there was financial panic & bankruptcies everywhere…desperate terrified people across the land…Here that had to be manufactured, and since NeoNuts have brought in the Mossad to operate domestically, it’s trivial to manufacture it again when effects of last one wear off…Perilous Times, til they’re out of office…

Posted by: jj | Nov 21 2005 21:06 utc | 27

you know, with this internet thing, I don’t think they can afford to show their hand again. Not now. They will have to slink back into the woodwork, for a while.

Posted by: DM | Nov 21 2005 21:21 utc | 29

yesterday tommorrow & tommorrow

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 21 2005 21:42 utc | 31

counsel of the taguba report :
“2. (U) That COL Thomas M. Pappas, Commander, 205th MI Brigade, be given a General Officer Memorandum of Reprimand and Investigated UP Procedure 15, AR 381-10, US Army Intelligence Activities for the following acts which have been previously referred to in the aforementioned findings:
Failing to ensure that Soldiers under his direct command were properly trained in and followed the IROE.
Failing to ensure that Soldiers under his direct command knew, understood, and followed the protections afforded to detainees in the Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War.
Failing to properly supervise his soldiers working and “visiting” Tier 1 of the Hard-Site at Abu Ghraib (BCCF).
3. (U) That LTC (P) Jerry L. Phillabaum, Commander, 320th MP Battalion, be Relieved from Command, be given a General Officer Memorandum of Reprimand, and be removed from the Colonel/O-6 Promotion List for the following acts which have been previously referred to in the aforementioned findings:
Failing to properly ensure the results, recommendations, and AARs from numerous reports on escapes and shootings over a period of several months were properly disseminated to, and understood by, subordinates.
Failing to implement the appropriate recommendations from various 15-6 Investigations as specifically directed by BG Karpinski.
Failing to ensure that Soldiers under his direct command were properly trained in Internment and Resettlement Operations.
Failing to ensure that Soldiers under his direct command knew and understood the protections afforded to detainees in the Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War.
Failing to properly supervise his soldiers working and “visiting” Tier 1 of the Hard-Site at Abu Ghraib (BCCF).
Failing to properly establish and enforce basic soldier standards, proficiency, and accountability.
Failure to conduct an appropriate Mission Analysis and to task organize to accomplish his mission.
4. (U) That LTC Steven L. Jordan, Former Director, Joint Interrogation and Debriefing Center and Liaison Officer to 205th Military Intelligence Brigade, be relieved from duty and be given a General Officer Memorandum of Reprimand for the following acts which have been previously referred to in the aforementioned findings:
Making material misrepresentations to the Investigating Team, including his leadership roll at Abu Ghraib (BCCF).
Failing to ensure that Soldiers under his direct control were properly trained in and followed the IROE.
Failing to ensure that Soldiers under his direct control knew, understood, and followed the protections afforded to detainees in the Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War.
Failing to properly supervise soldiers under his direct authority working and “visiting” Tier 1 of the Hard-Site at Abu Ghraib (BCCF).
5. (U) That MAJ David W. DiNenna, Sr., S-3, 320th MP Battalion, be Relieved from his position as the Battalion S-3 and be given a General Officer Memorandum of Reprimand for the following acts which have been previously referred to in the aforementioned findings:
Received a GOMOR from LTG McKiernan, Commander CFLCC, on 25 May 2003, for dereliction of duty for failing to report a violation of CENTCOM General Order #1 by a subordinate Field Grade Officer and Senior Noncommissioned Officer, which he personally observed; GOMOR was returned to Soldier and not filed.
Failing to take corrective action and implement recommendations from various 15-6 investigations even after receiving a GOMOR from BG Karpinski, Commander 800th MP Brigade, on 10 November 03, for failing to take corrective security measures as ordered; GOMOR was filed locally.
Failing to take appropriate action and report an incident of detainee abuse, whereby he personally witnessed a Soldier throw a detainee from the back of a truck.
6. (U) That CPT Donald J. Reese, Commander, 372nd MP Company, be Relieved from Command and be given a General Officer Memorandum of Reprimand for the following acts which have been previously referred to in the aforementioned findings:
Failing to ensure that Soldiers under his direct command knew and understood the protections afforded to detainees in the Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War.
Failing to properly supervise his Soldiers working and “visiting” Tier 1 of the Hard-Site at Abu Ghraib (BCCF).
Failing to properly establish and enforce basic soldier standards, proficiency, and accountability.
Failing to ensure that Soldiers under his direct command were properly trained in Internment and Resettlement Operations.
7. (U) That 1LT Lewis C. Raeder, Platoon Leader, 372nd MP Company, be Relieved from his duties as Platoon Leader and be given a General Officer Memorandum of Reprimand for the following acts which have been previously referred to in the aforementioned findings:
Failing to ensure that Soldiers under his direct command knew and understood the protections afforded to detainees in the Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War.
Failing to properly supervise his soldiers working and “visiting” Tier 1 of the Hard-Site at Abu Ghraib (BCCF).
Failing to properly establish and enforce basic Soldier standards, proficiency, and accountability.
Failing to ensure that Soldiers under his direct command were properly trained in Internment and Resettlement Operations.
8. (U) That SGM Marc Emerson, Operations SGM, 320th MP Battalion, be Relieved from his duties and given a General Officer Memorandum of Reprimand for the following acts which have been previously referred to in the aforementioned findings:
Making a material misrepresentation to the Investigation Team stating that he had “never” been admonished or reprimanded by BG Karpinski, when in fact he had been admonished for failing to obey an order from BG Karpinski to “stay out of the towers” at the holding facility.
Making a material misrepresentation to the Investigation Team stating that he had attended every shift change/guard-mount conducted at the 320th MP Battalion, and that he personally briefed his Soldiers on the proper treatment of detainees, when in fact numerous statements contradict this assertion.
Failing to ensure that Soldiers in the 320th MP Battalion knew and understood the protections afforded to detainees in the Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War.
Failing to properly supervise his soldiers working and “visiting” Tier 1 of the Hard-Site at Abu Ghraib (BCCF).
Failing to properly establish and enforce basic soldier standards, proficiency, and accountability.
Failing to ensure that his Soldiers were properly trained in Internment and Resettlement Operations.
9. (U) That 1SG Brian G. Lipinski, First Sergeant, 372nd MP Company, be Relieved from his duties as First Sergeant of the 372nd MP Company and given a General Officer Memorandum of Reprimand for the following acts which have been previously referred to in the aforementioned findings:
Failing to ensure that Soldiers in the 372nd MP Company knew and understood the protections afforded to detainees in the Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War.
Failing to properly supervise his soldiers working and “visiting” Tier 1 of the Hard-Site at Abu Ghraib (BCCF).
Failing to properly establish and enforce basic soldier standards, proficiency, and accountability.
Failing to ensure that his Soldiers were properly trained in Internment and Resettlement Operations.
10. (U) That SFC Shannon K. Snider, Platoon Sergeant, 372nd MP Company, be Relieved from his duties, receive a General Officer Memorandum of Reprimand, and receive action under the Uniform Code of Military Justice for the following acts which have been previously referred to in the aforementioned findings:
Failing to ensure that Soldiers in his platoon knew and understood the protections afforded to detainees in the Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War.
Failing to properly supervise his soldiers working and “visiting” Tier 1 of the Hard-Site at Abu Ghraib (BCCF).
Failing to properly establish and enforce basic soldier standards, proficiency, and accountability.
Failing to ensure that his Soldiers were properly trained in Internment and Resettlement Operations.
Failing to report a Soldier, who under his direct control, abused detainees by stomping on their bare hands and feet in his presence.
11. (U) That Mr. Steven Stephanowicz, Contract US Civilian Interrogator, CACI, 205th Military Intelligence Brigade, be given an Official Reprimand to be placed in his employment file, termination of employment, and generation of a derogatory report to revoke his security clearance for the following acts which have been previously referred to in the aforementioned findings:
Made a false statement to the investigation team regarding the locations of his interrogations, the activities during his interrogations, and his knowledge of abuses. Allowed and/or instructed MPs, who were not trained in interrogation techniques, to facilitate interrogations by “setting conditions” which were neither authorized and in accordance with applicable regulations/policy. He clearly knew his instructions equated to physical abuse.
12. (U) That Mr. John Israel, Contract US Civilian Interpreter, CACI, 205th Military Intelligence Brigade, be given an Official Reprimand to be placed in his employment file and have his security clearance reviewed by competent authority for the following acts or concerns which have been previously referred to in the aforementioned findings:
Denied ever having seen interrogation processes in violation of the IROE, which is contrary to several witness statements. Did not have a security clearance.
13. (U) I find that there is sufficient credible information to warrant an Inquiry UP Procedure 15, AR 381-10, US Army Intelligence Activities, be conducted to determine the extent of culpability of MI personnel, assigned to the 205th MI Brigade and the Joint Interrogation and Debriefing Center (JIDC) at Abu Ghraib (BCCF). Specifically, I suspect that COL Thomas M. Pappas, LTC Steve L. Jordan, Mr. Steven Stephanowicz, and Mr. John Israel were either directly or indirectly responsible for the abuses at Abu Ghraib (BCCF) and strongly recommend immediate disciplinary action as described in the preceding paragraphs as well as the initiation of a Procedure 15 Inquiry to determine the full extent of their culpability. (Annex 36)”
nothing, absolutely nothing
except the deomonisation of the already hysteric general karpinski

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 21 2005 22:44 utc | 33

some scenes from the american empire’s theatre of cruelty :
“The documents released today include 44 autopsies and death reports as well as a summary of autopsy reports of individuals apprehended in Iraq and Afghanistan.  The documents show that detainees died during or after interrogations by Navy Seals, Military Intelligence and “OGA” (Other Governmental Agency) — a term, according to the ACLU, that is commonly used to refer to the CIA. 
According to the documents, 21 of the 44 deaths were homicides.   Eight of the homicides appear to have resulted from abusive techniques used on detainees, in some instances, by the CIA, Navy Seals and Military Intelligence personnel.  The autopsy reports list deaths by “strangulation,” “asphyxiation” and “blunt force injuries.”  An overwhelming majority of the so-called “natural deaths” were attributed to “Arteriosclerotic Cardiovascular Disease.” 
While newspapers have recently reported deaths of detainees in CIA custody, today’s documents show that the problem is pervasive, involving Navy Seals and Military Intelligence too. 
The records reveal the following facts:
A 27-year-old Iraqi male died while being interrogated by Navy Seals on April 5, 2004, in Mosul, Iraq. During his confinement he was hooded, flex-cuffed, sleep deprived and subjected to hot and cold environmental conditions, including the use of cold water on his body and hood.  The exact cause of death was “undetermined” although the autopsy stated that hypothermia may have contributed to his death.   Notes say he “struggled/ interrogated/ died sleeping.” Some facts relating to this case have been previously reported.  (In April 2003, Secretary Rumsfeld authorized the use of “environmental manipulation” as an interrogation technique in Guantánamo Bay.  In September 2003, Lt. Gen. Sanchez also authorized this technique for use in Iraq.  Although Lt. Gen. Sanchez later rescinded the September 2003 techniques, he authorized “changes in environmental quality” in October 2003.)
An Iraqi detainee (also described as a white male) died on January 9, 2004, in Al Asad, Iraq, while being interrogated by “OGA.”  He was standing, shackled to the top of a door frame with a gag in his mouth at the time he died. The cause of death was asphyxia and blunt force injuries.  Notes summarizing the autopsies record the circumstances of death as “Q by OGA, gagged in standing restraint.” (Facts in the autopsy report appear to match the previously reported case of Abdul Jaleel.)
A detainee was smothered to death during an interrogation by Military Intelligence on November 26, 2003, in Al Qaim, Iraq.  A previously released autopsy report, that appears to be of General Mowhoush, lists “asphyxia due to smothering and chest compression” as the cause of death and cites bruises from the impact with a blunt object.  New documents specifically record the circumstances of death as “Q by MI, died during interrogation.” 
A detainee at Abu Ghraib Prison, captured by Navy Seal Team number seven, died on November 4, 2003, during an interrogation by Navy Seals and “OGA.”  A previously released autopsy report, that appears to be of Manadel Al Jamadi, shows that the cause of his death was “blunt force injury complicated by compromised respiration.”  New documents specifically record the circumstances of death as “Q by OGA and NSWT died during interrogation.”
An Afghan civilian died from “multiple blunt force injuries to head, torso and extremities” on November 6, 2003, at a Forward Operating Base in Helmand Province, Afghanistan.  (Facts in the autopsy report appear to match the previously reported case of Abdul Wahid.)
A 52-year-old male Iraqi was strangled to death at the Whitehorse detainment facility on June 6, 2003, in Nasiriyah, Iraq.  His autopsy also revealed bone and rib fractures, and multiple bruises on his body. (Facts in the autopsy report appear to match the previously reported case of Nagm Sadoon Hatab.)
The ACLU has previously released autopsy reports for two detainees who were tortured by U.S. forces in Bagram, Afghanistan, believed to be Mullah Habibullah and an Afghan man known as Dilawar.
“These documents present irrefutable evidence that U.S. operatives tortured detainees to death during interrogations,” said Amrit Singh, an attorney with the ACLU.  “The public has a right to know who authorized the use of torture techniques and why these deaths have been covered up.”
source aclu
suggested by outraged
the devil is in the detail

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 21 2005 22:53 utc | 35

from DemocracyNow.org

The Man Who Sold the Iraq War: John Rendon, Bush’s General in the Propaganda War
Investigative journalist James Bamford examines how the Bush administration and Iraqi National Congress used the PR firm Rendon Group to feed journalists – including Judith Miller — fabricated stories in an effort to sell the war. The firm has received millions in government contracts since 1991 when it was by the CIA to help “create the conditions for the removal of Hussein from power.” Iraq wasn’t the first regime change case for Rendon. In 1989 the CIA turned to Rendon to use a variety of campaign and psychological techniques in Panama to put the CIA’s choice, Guillermo Endara, into the presidential palace to replace Gen. Manuel Noriega.
Video | Audio | Transcript
From Vietnam to Iraq: Sen. George McGovern Discusses the Lies of War from the Gulf of Tonkin to Iraq’s WMDs
The 1972 presidential candidate looks back at how the U.S. entered the wars in Vietnam and Iraq. We also play an excerpt from the new documentary “One Bright Shining Moment: The Forgotten Summer of George McGovern.”
Video | Audio | Transcript

Posted by: Outraged | Nov 21 2005 23:36 utc | 37

The President intends to nominate Bradford R. Higgins, of Connecticut, to be Assistant Secretary of State (Resources Management) and Chief Financial Officer of the Department of State. Mr. Higgins currently serves as Senior Advisor to the United States Ambassador to Iraq, Zalmay Khalilzad. He previously served as Senior Advisor to the Assistant Secretary of State for Resources Management and Chief Financial Officer. Prior to that, he was Chief of Planning for the Iraq Reconstruction Management Office in Baghdad, Iraq. Mr. Higgins also served as Chief Financial Officer for the Coalition Provisional Authority.
Bush nominates Baghdad bagman for administration post
Suuuuuuuuuuuuure your money’s going to be in safe hands.

Posted by: GM | Nov 22 2005 0:27 utc | 39

shake & bake (cont)
“But the distinction is a minor one, and arguably political in nature. A formerly classified 1995 Pentagon intelligence document titled “Possible Use of Phosphorous Chemical” describes the use of white phosphorus by Saddam Hussein on Kurdish fighters:
IRAQ HAS POSSIBLY EMPLOYED PHOSPHOROUS CHEMICAL WEAPONS AGAINST THE KURDISH POPULATION IN AREAS ALONG THE IRAQI-TURKISH-IRANIAN BORDERS. […]
IN LATE FEBRUARY 1991, FOLLOWING THE COALITION FORCES’ OVERWHELMING VICTORY OVER IRAQ, KURDISH REBELS STEPPED UP THEIR STRUGGLE AGAINST IRAQI FORCES IN NORTHERN IRAQ. DURING THE BRUTAL CRACKDOWN THAT FOLLOWED THE KURDISH UPRISING, IRAQI FORCES LOYAL TO PRESIDENT SADDAM ((HUSSEIN)) MAY HAVE POSSIBLY USED WHITE PHOSPHOROUS (WP) CHEMICAL WEAPONS AGAINST KURDISH REBELS AND THE POPULACE IN ERBIL (GEOCOORD:3412N/04401E) (VICINITY OF IRANIAN BORDER) AND DOHUK (GEOCOORD:3652N/04301E) (VICINITY OF IRAQI BORDER) PROVINCES, IRAQ.
In other words, the Pentagon does refer to white phosphorus rounds as chemical weapons — at least if they’re used by our enemies.”
source ; think progress

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 22 2005 0:47 utc | 41

& more from the threestooges media ;
“WASHINGTON (CNN) — Michael Scanlon, a former aide to Rep. Tom DeLay and a lawyer who worked with high-powered Washington lobbyist Jack Abramoff, pleaded guilty to a federal conspiracy charge Monday.
As part of the deal with the Justice Department, Scanlon is expected to testify against Abramoff, two government sources told CNN last week.”
ô it’s going to be hot night in the old town tonight

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 22 2005 0:52 utc | 43

Thanks rememberinggiap, for the best laugh I’ve had all day!
“& who are their tailors – for that alone – they should be before an international crime tribune”
I haven’t really seen them for a while but the memory is rekindled. Just imagine what they looked like before the tv cameras came to the House … do you recall the movie Freaks? “One of us, one of us!”

Posted by: jonku | Nov 22 2005 1:03 utc | 45

@Debs is Dead
Your posts often stand on their own and therefore it’s superfluous to comment or add to them. Just wanted to say, all the same, it’s a pleasure to read your often wide ranging commentaries, and frequently personable insights, especially re influences, impacts on indigenous societies, peoples in AsiaPac.
Ignore this with contempt if desired … are you perhaps New Zealand Maori or Australian Aboriginal ethnicity ?
Re that ‘false-flag’ op you mentioned in the other thread … would it have been the French re the Rainbow Warrior, or perhaps the ‘from Australia’ false passports Israeli Mossad fiasco ? Just curious …
If you’re interested I can offer an insiders version re the two British Army Intelligence Corps lads and the IRA on the previous thread … a completely different account of what occurred …
Again, just idle contemptuous flippant curiosity …

Posted by: Outraged | Nov 22 2005 1:14 utc | 47

outraged,
i think not
nor do i think they constitute
metathreads
where the ‘i’ is important to the post it then lays down
a form of infrastructure of ‘knowing’, of ‘getting to know’ neither in
the heideggerian sense nor in the professor higgins manner
i’m afraid the ‘anonymity’ business – while i understand it – & i understand that some people who post might be at more of a threat than others – it seems to me that not adressed properly it is a form of disguise
i see no danger in openness & on the contrary have never sought refuge behind such masks
in my work – your exemplarity & frailty are public even political questions
when debs or yourself or deanander – place a bit of yourselves in your posts – it accelerates my level of understanding
perhaps i’m still being too elliptic

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 22 2005 1:49 utc | 49

@Outraged
No I’m a Celt who wouldn’t mind trying to prevent what happened to us happening to others so I have worked for/with indigenous ppl in the south for a lot of my life.
Which is why I may have bumped into the other stuff on occasion. It seems that trying to protect others can be considered treasonous by some.
The incidents I have been around haven’t usually been ‘headline grabbers’ but there are sufficient of them in the “New World” for even a bit player to have experienced them.
Most are hilarious looking back. The complete lack of understanding and communication between the different sides compounded by the incompetence of intelligence operatives and the naivety of all players can create a farce.
Unfortunately some have been tragic and when young it is possible to convince oneself to favour the lesser of two evils, tho as one gets older and closer to their own family, it becomes difficult to justify harm to any parent, sibling or child. Therefore most of my experiences are dated.
The classic false flag operation is the provocateur. As a peaceful march approaches it’s destination weapons suddenly appear in the hands of persons unknown to the organisers. They are used at the police or army lines although the protest marshalls try and grab these stirrers to at least subdue them and if necessary to prevent loss of innocent life, to hand them over, other unknowns come forward to aid the provocateurs. Then the disturbance escalates because the stirrers misjudged and are outnumbered; it transpires the police/army have to rescue the very people who had just taken a potshot at them.
Landsakes alive! as granny would say. They all appear to know one another.
In the developed world this leads to broken heads. In the ‘being developed’ world this can lead to death. Murphy is as ubiquitous as any other Celt his Law is everywhere, so it is often the death of complete innocents. There are those who would argue that the death of innocents persuades ‘normal’ ppl to stay away from protests.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Nov 22 2005 3:21 utc | 51

jm (re afghanistan) – just wait until afghanis figure out
gwbco plans to stay in iraq another $300,000M worth, and
so the us money posse ain’t coming to the rescue of kabul.
rgiap – just wait until syriana hits the movie screens
in three weeks, about the time cheney’s boys go ‘cambodia’
with full spectrum shake-and-bake on the syrian border.
debs – murtha’s concern that ‘virtually none of the billions of dollars of ‘reconstruction’ money promised by bushco had been delivered’ is nothing compared to biden’s theft of murtha’s thema.
jm – see comment to debs, re theft of afghan repatriate hype.
when more than one person in your personal circle repeats that
myth within a day of reading it on moonofa, then it’s psyops.
(e.g. don’t look behind that curtain, gwb has enough &^%t.)
outraged – if all don rumsfeld can muster is that after two
years, two thousand lives and $300,000m dollars in cash bales
redirected to bahranian bank accounts, all the people of iraq
have is a constitution written by western interests in league
with expatriate iraqis, and only made it to a vote because the
interim coalition promised it would be completely rewritten(!),
then hey, don, what the f–k have we got for our investment?!
$cam – biden may claim gwb has irretrievably lost the american
people, but when was the last time you got to vote for defense
appropriations, and when was the last time your representatives
put up even an eensy weeny fight in protest before rolling over?
– – –
it’s a great big-lie con so big you have to have eyes in the
back of your head just to catch their shadow. we ain’t pulling
out, not now, not ever. we’re going into syria at the same time
we’re cutting a deal with iran to carve up iraq, all same-same.
the fact is, everyone is broke, only some have bigger levers of
deficit to pull, while the rest are pushing the deadweight over
the side and rowing for higher ground in walled caucasoidariums.
wish i could share, can’t, just spelling US reality with an “R”.

Posted by: jembe madjool | Nov 22 2005 3:43 utc | 53

“the u.s. military will never leave iraq” – i think not; the “perpetual garrison” in saigon has been closed for a while now – admittedly the desire to continue to occupy iraq is strong, but the iraqis do have something to say about it
the guys in the board rooms who call the shots and their flunkies, the guys in the war rooms, think they can make anybody do what they want, by bribes or force – but they are mistaken, they do not have invincible coercive power, only the power to destroy
may the creative forces of the universe have mercy on our souls, if any

Posted by: mistah charley | Nov 22 2005 3:57 utc | 55

we ain’t pulling
out, not now, not ever.
“withdrawal,” like all post-coital matters, means “out,” as in: no freemarket bs and no bases.
There’s no way this will happen, I agree. “redeployment” in this sense must mean “return to anbar garrisons and let the natives settle old scores.”
Retired lt.gen Odom, Murtha, many others are adamant “army’s broken” and the military “won’t be deployed in Iraq” by late 2006.
“redeployment”–that’s a tricky word.
What is succes for the US?: bases and control of oil. These two goals are a smbiosis, as control of oil means to me rapid military response to assure production.
And fracture of Iraq, as I still believe, benefits such “success.”
By this metric, US has not yet “lost.”

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 22 2005 4:03 utc | 57

And the idea southern iraq/arab shia are subsumed by Iran isn’t supported by the history of the region. there’s a huge amount of literature demonstrating how such integration has been averted due to the usual arab shia/persian animus.
but, things could change, I suppose.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 22 2005 4:17 utc | 59

Damn it all it’s getting bloody difficult to crank up a war nowadays.

“Iran has won more time in its standoff with the West over its suspect nuclear programme after European Union countries agreed to allow consideration of a Russian compromise that would avert a referral to the UN Security Council at this stage for possible sanctions.”

damned yanks seem to have lost their bottle

“However with the IAEA chief and the US now backing the Russian attempt to broker a diplomatic solution with the Iranian regime, it now appears that plans by Britain, France and Germany to push for a referral have now been shelved.”

Just because they’ve got their oil and the moron Bush can’t keep the great unwashed under control, we don’t get our share? Tell ya what Jacques is going to pissed about this. The only reason he let that motion through the security council retroactively approving the theft of Iraq was because he was promised the Persian oil.
One would think that the US had cut a deal with the Iranians over Iraq.

” The new hardline regime of President Mohamed Ahmadinejad rejected out of hand in the summer proposals from the three EU countries that would have barred Iran from any nuclear fuel cycle activities, amid fears that the country could be working on a nuclear bomb. Iran denies any such intentions, saying that its nuclear intentions are peaceful, and insists on its right to enrich uranium under the nuclear non-proliferation treaty.”

Posted by: Debs is dead | Nov 22 2005 9:18 utc | 61

Monbiot: Behind the phosphorus clouds are war crimes within war crimes

But we shouldn’t forget that the use of chemical weapons was a war crime within a war crime within a war crime. Both the invasion of Iraq and the assault on Falluja were illegal acts of aggression. Before attacking the city, the marines stopped men “of fighting age” from leaving. Many women and children stayed: the Guardian’s correspondent estimated that between 30,000 and 50,000 civilians were left. The marines treated Falluja as if its only inhabitants were fighters. They levelled thousands of buildings, illegally denied access to the Iraqi Red Crescent and, according to the UN’s special rapporteur, used “hunger and deprivation of water as a weapon of war against the civilian population”.

Posted by: b | Nov 22 2005 10:33 utc | 63

The shia people haven’t been subsumed by Iran but their leaders have been. The willing connivance of USuk has meant that the Shia in positions of control in Iraq aren’t Iraqis they are Iranians. Sure they are arabic not persian but we shouldn’t think the border between Iraq and Iran is a line with Arabs on one side and persians on the other. That southern area has marsh arabs on both sides of the border.
One of the most open examples of the control that the Iranians have over the Iraqi leadership is the murder and assassination of former Iraqi airforce pilots by ministry of the interior death squads.

“Former pilots who served in Saddam Hussein’s Air Force are victims of a manhunt by armed militias which has cost the lives of dozens of veterans since the fall of the former regime in April 2003.

Not only are many of these pilots retired a substantial portion of them are shia. All that can have fled Iraq but many cannot. Lists of airforce personnel have been compiled and the ministry of the Interior is hunting them down.
Why? So that the Iraqis learn not to take on Iran and importantly to accept the theft of and the Iranian blockage of Iraq’s traditional waterway access just as they have learned to accept the Kuwaiti obstruction.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Nov 22 2005 11:21 utc | 65

The head of a European investigation into alleged secret CIA prisons in eastern Europe today said he had asked for flight details about 31 aircraft allegedly used for the transfer of terror suspects.

Dick Marty, a Swiss senator leading the investigation for the Council of Europe, said he had asked the Eurocontrol air safety organisation to provide the flight details, based on information from Human Rights Watch.
Marty also said he had asked the European Union’s satellite centre in Spain to hand over satellite images of sites in Romania and Poland which have been identified in the media as sites of possible CIA secret prisons.

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Nov 22 2005 12:09 utc | 67

NYT says something interesting about Islam:

The authorities, he said, fear Islam because they fear the discipline it demands, the defiance it offers in a corrupted society. “Who needs a person who does not drink, who does not smoke, who has freedom?” he said of the official attitude. “If I am lying drunk on the ground, I am easier to control.”

Posted by: Anonymous | Nov 22 2005 17:13 utc | 69

Paris witnesses an exclusive exhibition of contemporary Iraqi art

Posted by: @ r’giap | Nov 22 2005 17:26 utc | 71

Undisciplined Arabs
😉

Posted by: An Other | Nov 22 2005 17:34 utc | 73

In 2001 America destroyed the Kabul offices of al-Jazeera with two smartbombs; officials said it was an accident. In 2003 America destroyed the Baghdad offices of al-Jazeera with missiles; officials said it was an accident. Now, two British civil servants are on trial for leaking a memo revealing that Bush intended to bomb al-Jazeera… at their headquarters in allied Qatar.
Finally, see: Report: Bush Talked of Bombing Al-Jazeera

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Nov 22 2005 18:13 utc | 75

1) There won’t be another major terrorist attack in the US. 9/11 was an anomaly, in its breathtaking bluff. The ‘people’ would turn against the Gvmt – either because they perceived the synthetic aspect, or because they judged that BushCo could not protect them from terrorism after so much money spent, strict security measures, etc. The Bush Gvmt. has dug itself into a hole – it needs to both hype terrorism and quash it, a difficult task. That can be managed when the whole scenario is airy-fairy and has few or no on-the-ground consequences. When the price of gas, and the number of American dead, rise, the result is easily linked to parts of the underlying faulty logic.
2) Iran and the US will perhaps collaborate to carve up Iraq (mentioned above as well)
3) The US will ‘stay’ in Iraq. It will maintain the permanent bases, a puppet Gvmt., laws written on tablecloths, Chalabi, etc. Money will continue to flow from the US taxpayer to large corporations and the Defense Industry. The chaos will not abate, and the Iraqis will continue powerless and dying.. Afghanistan will up its drug production yet again, and buy food from the US…
4) I doubt very much whether the US will take any strong action against Syria.
5) The US being mobilised in Iraq, and BushGov ‘imperialism’ and total disregard for diplomacy, international accords, etc. has opened the door to timid opposition and winds of change. It is beginning to look like replacing the War on Drugs with the War on Terrorism (a more ambitious and focused undertaking) was a mistake. When the cat is away the mice will play – see e.g. South America. For the moment, the opposition is against Bush personally – easy, as he is universally disliked, cheap shots are accepted – but also against ‘globalisation’ and/or ‘the capitalist economy.’ Mainstream articles (in the EU) pointing out that the Nation State is not dead, that the IMF is full of BS, that pleasing shareholders because fund managers all follow each other like a herd of sheep and really do nothing but encourage delocalisation and throwing workers on the breadline, are beginning to multiply. The WTO is making no headway, for example. Little cracks are beginning to appear….

Posted by: Noisette | Nov 22 2005 18:47 utc | 77

Googling “the new feudalism” this am.
Gleanings:
Corporate Feudalism and the Culture War, by Joseph Lyles

Unruly American democracy really doesn’t mix very well with corporate industrial capitalism. Large-scale industrial enterprises do not thrive on nonconformity and individualism. Rather, they require discipline and regimentation. The only nonconformist or individualist permissible is the industrial entrepreneur. Everybody else needs to show up to work on time, and do as they’re told.
This corporate conformist industrial culture was not the original American culture, and indeed was its opposite in many ways. Nevertheless, the conformist culture of the corporate middle class – expanded under the New Deal to include the newly prosperous corporate working class – is the “American” culture the right-wingers defend as the highest expression of “Americanism”. For them, “patriotism” and loyalty to the society and culture of corporate industrial capitalism are one and the same.
In fact, the heart of the cheap labor conservative is little concerned with democracy or equality, and is a throw-back to the culture of feudalism we all came here to escape. Their beliefs center on a hierarchical social order of wealthy elites and serfs, a culture of conformity, regimentation, and obedience to authority.

Midnight Ride of the Rabble, by Thom Hartmann

What conservatives are really arguing for is a return to the three historic forms of tyranny that the Founders and Framers identified, declared war against, and fought and died to keep out of our land. Those tyrants were kings, theocrats, and noble feudal lords.

BTW: Bane of the “cheap labor consevatives” and a site to watch (though under heavy reconstruction): Conceptual Guerilla

Posted by: manonfyre | Nov 22 2005 19:02 utc | 79

Reuters
Tuesday’s attack came hours after insurgents fired two mortars at a complex of palaces built by Saddam in Tikrit, where U.S. Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad was attending a ceremony handing the palaces back to the Iraqi government.
No one was injured by the blasts, which the U.S. military said failed to detonate properly, but television pictures showed U.S. soldiers and Marines, as well as Khalilzad and other dignitaries, diving for cover during a panicked few seconds.
General George Casey, the top U.S. commander in Iraq, was also attending the ceremony.
“This is a phenomenon existing in the country. We are used to it,” Khalilzad told reporters after security guards had rushed him to a safer place and then brought him back.

Posted by: Outraged | Nov 22 2005 19:36 utc | 81

Hands up anyone who was surprised that the attacks on the media such as Al-Jazeera were highly planned efforts as part of a deliberate strategy to control the information about global war on terra.
Hmm look ma no hands!
OK then hands up those would have taken exception to concerned citizens of the Mid East blowing the crap outta the New York Times to prevent it’s well documented dissemination of lies that promoted an illegal war, resulting in the deaths of thousands of innocents.
US citizens who aren’t keen on suffering death by redneck and don’t feel like running that test in their local community need to relax because actually running the survey would be a mere formality. The result would be more evidence of the unhealthy culture of amerikan exceptionalism, which must be dealt with somehow if this planet is going to ‘move forward from here’ as the mealy mouthed suits like to say.
So the only really interesting part of all this is how it got ‘leaked’ in the first place. I know nothing of the former British labour MP whose office the document surfaced in; but if a man were to be judged by his staff it could be assumed that Tony Clarke is a meddlesome sticky beak left winger.
So what was this ‘top secret’ document doing there? Hmmm let’s see… I know! Perhaps the good Mr Bliar wanted to fall back on his good cop bad cop routine. He circulated the report to show these meddlesome, sticky beak, left wingers that he was licking Chimpee’s ass solely to prevent the pooh from being spread indiscriminately about the place.
In which case he shouldn’t be too upset about this revelation should he? Nah since from the account at least one of those charged was doing the right thing:

“Civil servant David Keogh, 49, is accused under the Official Secrets Act of handing it to Clarke’s former researcher Leo O’Connor, 42. Both are bailed to appear at Bow Street Magistrates Court in central London next week.
Clarke returned the memo to Downing Street. He said O’Connor had behaved “pefectly correctly”.
He told Britain’s domestic Press Association news agency that O’Connor had done “exactly the right thing” in bringing it to his attention.

So is this trial just more Bliarist spin to refurbish his chipped and tarnished image?
Well yeah…
Does it matter? Nah from over here it seems, Bliar didn’t argue against the attack on any sort of ethical grounds. Like ‘lets not kill all those innocent people’ or ‘C’mon George, the citizens have an entitlement to hear both sides of the story’. No No, bliar’s counselling was purely pragmatic. Since his voterigging techniques are far more primitive than BushCo’s he has to ‘keep his finger on the pulse’ of public opinion a little better than the intellectually challenged poly-drug abuser.
Blind Freddy could see what would happen in the Arabic and Islam worlds had Chimpee’s wet dream come to fruition.
One could safely say that this would have been the best recruiting tool for the other side’s war mongerers since the illegal invasion of Iraq.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Nov 22 2005 20:21 utc | 83

so what’s your economic ‘model’? what’s the answer?

Posted by: DM | Nov 22 2005 21:15 utc | 85

thank you @r’giap
i will be in paris this weekend to hear & witness some of my song being recorde & then performed – so i will try to visit this exhibition
elmendahar (?) isn’t that the u s financed iraq media outlet

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 22 2005 21:51 utc | 87

Whether or not the War on Terrorism was a mistake, I think it ended with Katrina. The people’s attention is elsewhere. It’s no longer a post 9/11 world in America, but post Katrina. This has yet to become fully clear, but the problems awakened by that incident are coming into focus. And they are internal. The rebuilding is not going as hoped and the problem is in the wings soon to be addressed. It looks like the neocon, and the conservative ideology, will have to be rejected with its aborted plans to privatize. What might happen is a debate coming up, especially about taxation, as the government moves away from this phase. State control vs. federal, and a look at many of our traditional institutions is in the cards.
The wealthy tax cut has become a radioactive issue that no one wants to touch. But it will be. If the wealthy refuse to pay, then we will have to go into our own pockets to take care of the problem. We will see.
I think the terror war had a certain something fake about it all along that the people sensed on some level, and would enthusiastically abandon it.

Posted by: jm | Nov 23 2005 0:01 utc | 89

Yes. The fear bogeyman. We here have known for a long time but now it appears that the others are catching up. It’s like the hypnosis information mentioned above.
People have always miscalculated danger. When asked questions in experiments about what thing is more dangerous than another, they always get it wrong.

Posted by: jm | Nov 23 2005 0:33 utc | 91

Damn ! There’s nothing worse than a corrupt politician (puppet) who won’t stay bought … remind me, all that treasure and blood being expended for what, exactly ?

Iran calls for US exit from Iraq
Mr Talabani has said he expects Iran will help beat insurgents.
Iran’s Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, has urged the visiting Iraqi president to push for a speedy pullout of foreign troops from his country.
The ayatollah also told Jalal Talabani that the US was mainly responsible for widespread violence in Iraq.
Mr Talabani is on the second day of a landmark visit to Iran, the first by an Iraqi leader for almost 40 years.
– snip –
“The Islamic Republic of Iran holds the American government responsible for the suffering of the Iraqi people and all the crimes and assassinations now being committed in Iraq,” he said.
“The presence of foreign troops is damaging for the Iraqis, and the Iraqi government could ask for their departure by proposing a timetable,” he added.
“The US and Britain will eventually have to leave Iraq with a bitter experience.”
– snip –
The BBC’s Frances Harrison in Tehran says that behind the scenes Iraqi officials are likely to push for greater sharing of intelligence with Iran, and for more efforts to secure the border between the two countries…

Posted by: Outraged | Nov 23 2005 1:45 utc | 93

The ACLU is tracking 44 suspicious detainee deaths in U.S. custody via FOIA … yet, 70-90 ? …

COL. LAWRENCE WILKERSON:
No, this is what I discovered was the first occasion — this was available to me in open source information, too, because The New York Times had done a really fine job of beginning an investigation of this. And what I found was these two deaths, and the suspicion was aroused in me, because at the time the Army coroner had declared the deaths homicides, and the Army had declared the deaths as a result of natural causes. And so, as I began to investigate, and as others began to investigate and began to talk to me and to feed me information, and as I began to look at the documents that were official and otherwise, I began to construct a case that showed that the Army had obfuscated, it had blocked at every level of command, trying to get to the bottom of these two killings.
And let me just add, when I left the State Department and had to turn over my papers, the deaths were up to over 70. And I have sources inside the government now that tell me the deaths may be up to 90. Now, this is people detained by the United States, either the armed forces, the Central Intelligence Agency or others, and these are people who have died in detention. Now, all of these cases, I hope, are not murder. But many of these cases still need to be investigated, and something needs to be done in the way of accountability.

From DemocracyNow.org transcript.

Posted by: Outraged | Nov 23 2005 2:30 utc | 95

Undisciplined Arabs
😉
Posted by: An Other | Nov 22, 2005 12:34:21 PM

Or should that be ‘MTV’ Arabs ?, LOL 🙂

Posted by: Outraged | Nov 23 2005 3:23 utc | 97

Tell me it ain’t so. Could be really trite and point out that the age of the thought police is indeed upon us but this guilty verdict on a student in Virginia accused of plotting to assassinate Bush is so horrifying yet nonsensical it takes the breath away
“- A federal jury on Tuesday found a U.S. man guilty of conspiring with al Qaeda and plotting to assassinate President George W. Bush, rejecting his claims of torture by Saudi police.”
You see the issue is that in the ‘good old days’ for a charge of treason or conspiracy to be upheld the state had to prove that the accused had committed at least one overt act towards the commission of the crime.
There are 2 really compelling reasons for this. Firstly it means that someone can’t just be oppresed (by torture beatings, threats etc) into admitting treason.
The second reason is even more compelling and that is that as we sit here, around the world thousands of people will be saying “That George Bush needs a one way ticket on the death express” or somesuch.
Of course none of these thousands of erstwhile revolutionaries will ever do anything about killing the chimp.
So quite rightly the law requires them to commit some act towards the commission of the crime before anyone takes it seriously.
Not with the new improved torture technique though. Just get some friendly Saudis to beat a confession out of one of your own citizens! Amazing! I suppose we should be heartened that it took the jury three days to reach a verdict because they would have been under all sorts of pressure to deliver. I wonder what the patriot act says about jury tampering? If it’s for a good cause of course. In a time of war, where if we have a really bad year casualties may reach 1% of what drunk drivers kill and maim in a year, I guess you have to cut a couple of corners, be realistic, and make sure that we don’t give in to the enemies of freedom.
Aaaarrggh the hypocrisy.
Why though? Does it really matter in the larger scheme of things how many loudmouths forget that loose lips sink ships. Maybe peripherally. At the moment because Dubya is in more pooh than a sewer rat. Though people don’t get panicked by stories of assassination plots against their leaders the way they do about random acts of violence against the general population.
Then I rememered coming across this .
” As he barnstormed through Japan, South Korea and China, with a final stop in Mongolia still to come, Bush visited no museums, tried no restaurants, bought no souvenirs and made no effort to meet ordinary local people.
“I live in a bubble,” Bush once said, explaining his anti-tourist tendencies by citing the enormous security and logistical considerations involved in arranging any sightseeing. “That’s just life.”
These assassination ‘plots’ aren’t set up to scare the general population, someone (hmm I wonder who) is using them to keep Chimpee in line.
Using the miserable little world of vengeance, fire and brimstone Bush has put himself in would be a very straightforward way of helping the poor little critter concentrate if he started asking silly questions like. “hey Dick I thought you said that Saddam had more nukes than my old dog’s ticks”
It is important not to upset chimp’s equilibrium too much so they can’t just BS him and run the risk of some sticky beak unravelling it all.
That severely impaired conscioussness still retains sufficient Bush egoism and venality to make it possible for even his damaged intellect put two and two together and realise it’s not in chimp’s interest to rock the boat.
As long as he gets constant reminders, in the form of death threats, plots, and the like W knows that not being president is not a safe option to take no matter how many sweaty palms you have to shake or coma inducing events a prez has to sit through.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Nov 23 2005 3:44 utc | 99