Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
November 3, 2005
Open Thread

Your news and views …

Comments

So Card and McClellan now try to lynch Rove. Please hand over the popcorn, this will be an interesting fight to watch.
Rove’s Future Role Is Debated

Top White House aides are privately discussing the future of Karl Rove, with some expressing doubt that President Bush can move beyond the damaging CIA leak case as long as his closest political strategist remains in the administration.
If Rove stays, which colleagues say remains his intention, he may at a minimum have to issue a formal apology for misleading colleagues and the public about his role in conversations that led to the unmasking of CIA operative Valerie Plame, according to senior Republican sources familiar with White House deliberations.
While Rove faces doubts about his White House status, there are new indications that he remains in legal jeopardy from Special Counsel Patrick J. Fitzgerald’s criminal investigation of the Plame leak. The prosecutor spoke this week with an attorney for Time magazine reporter Matthew Cooper about his client’s conversations with Rove before and after Plame’s identity became publicly known because of anonymous disclosures by White House officials, according to two sources familiar with the conversation.

Posted by: b | Nov 3 2005 11:18 utc | 1

Question:
Apart from Joe Wilson, there have been numerous references to 3-4 additional reports from members of the military (and others?) that the Niger-Iraq yellowcake “deal” was not supportable. They are not mentioned in Kristof’s May 6, 2002, column, but I know I have seen references to the debunking of the claim by others before Wilson went to Niger. Thus Wilson was not the only person to look into and question this claim. Who were these others? What has happened to them?

Posted by: Hamburger | Nov 3 2005 12:10 utc | 2

Yesterday was an important anniversary for the Lupins.

Posted by: Lupin | Nov 3 2005 12:11 utc | 3

Palestinians hit by sonic boom air raids
· UN condemns night noise attacks as indiscriminate
· Agencies say they cause trauma and miscarriages
Chris McGreal in Gaza
Thursday November 3, 2005
The Guardian
Israel is deploying a terrifying new tactic against Palestinian civilians in the Gaza Strip by letting loose deafening “sound bombs” that cause widespread fear, induce miscarriages and traumatise children.
– snip –
Mr de Soto said he did not accept that the tactic was a legitimate response to Islamic Jihad and Hamas firing rockets into Israeli towns. “Sonic booms are an indiscriminate instrument, the use of which punishes the population collectively. We ask therefore that their use be stopped without delay,” the letter said.
The military was forced to apologise after one sonic boom was unintentionally heard hundreds of kilometres inside Israel last week. Maariv newspaper described it as sounding “like a heavy bombardment. The noise that shook the Israeli skies was frightening. Thousands of citizens leapt in panic from their beds, and many of them placed worried calls to the police and the fire department. The Tel Aviv and central district police switchboards crashed.”

Posted by: Outraged | Nov 3 2005 13:33 utc | 4

Berlusconi claims he was a terror target.
All this information coming out of Italy, and Berlusconi’s reaction to it is very interesting. Of course, he’s looking at losing an election big time, but I wonder WHO told him he was a target and when? (or if anyone did.)
First he said he argued against the war with Bush, now he seems to be claiming he went with the war because he thought he was threatened personally…very convenient.
And, yes, I also wonder how the reporters at La Republlica were able to get their info…and the timing of the articles, coming, as they do, as Fitzgerald issued his first indictment.
It seems to me that the real politickers (ala Scowcroft) are puttnig out this information to discredit the rationale for a war with Iraq and saying that the Bush administration was too reactionary and were played by the Iranians.
Who is this information for, I wonder? Congress?
–to make them question any support for an attack on Iran?
For Fitzgerald, to give reason to expand the scope of the (new) grand jury inquiry?
According to the CBS poll noted yesterday on the blogs, those who were paying attention already, it would seem, would also have some awareness of this issue…the coverage by Rozen and Marshall, etc. also addressed this.
The 50% or so of Americans who “don’t have enough information” about Libby, etc. are a long way from connecting this information to the whole OSP/Cheney faction issue…but again, the more information that is released, the more the MSM should cover it…but whether they will or not…
From the poll, the good news is that those polled think the release of information about a CIA agent is as important as Watergate. The bad news is that they are unaware of the problems of Iran-Contra (my interpretation) because they rank it much lower on a scale of big scandalous issues.
From the CBS poll-
(which REALLY slows down my computer)
HOW IMPORTANT TO THE NATION IS THE CIA LEAK MATTER?
CIA Leak
Great importance – 51%
Some importance – 35%
Little/no importance – 12%
Clinton-Lewinsky (1/98)
Great importance – 41%
Some importance – 21%
Little/no importance – 37%
Whitewater (3/94)
Great importance – 20%
Some importance – 29%
Little/no importance – 45%
Iran-Contra (2/87)
Great importance – 48%
Some importance – 33%
Little/no importance – 19%
Watergate (5/73; Gallup Poll)
Great importance – 53%
Some importance – 25%
Little/no importance – 22%

Posted by: fauxreal | Nov 3 2005 15:03 utc | 5

President Bush last week appointed nine campaign contributors including three longtime fund-raisers, to his Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board, a 16-member panel of individuals from the private sector who advise the president on the quality and effectiveness of U.S. intelligence efforts.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Nov 3 2005 16:17 utc | 6

A Day At the Senate

Posted by: Tild | Nov 3 2005 16:22 utc | 7

@faux
I read the stats you presented a little differently. If I look at the two groupings of ‘Great importance’ and ‘Some importance’, and group them into just one grouping, ‘Important’ I glean a slightly more optimistic conclusion:
CIA 86
Iran-Contra 81
Watergate 78
Anyway, I appreciated your post. It stimulated new thoughts for me, as if that didn’t happen enough around here already.
The idea that Berlusconi might have been threatened Mafia style to support Bush’s war, fits right into my paradigm but I hadn’t considered it.
I usually don’t assign much weight to polls, except of course, for the ones that support my wishful thinking.

Posted by: Juannie | Nov 3 2005 16:46 utc | 8

a chilly wind is blowing outside my window

Weather Modification Research & Technology Act Of 2005

United States Senate | September 2, 2005
S 517 IS
SEC. 2. PURPOSE.
It is the purpose of this Act to develop and implement a comprehensive and coordinated national weather modification policy and a national cooperative Federal and State program of weather modification research and development.

Posted by: annie | Nov 3 2005 17:40 utc | 9

Juannie – The idea that Berlusconi might have been threatened Mafia style to support Bush’s war, fits right into my paradigm but I hadn’t considered it.
Berlusconi IS the Mafia.

Posted by: b | Nov 3 2005 18:14 utc | 10

Period US UK Other* Total Avg Days
4 600 12 17 629 2.27 277
3 579 25 27 631 2.92 216
2 718 27 58 803 1.89 424
1 140 33 0 173 4.02 43
Total 2037 97 102 2236 2.33 960
We blew through 2000 like a hot knife through butter. Seems 2100 is going to slap us by December. Bush still doesn’t lose a moment of sleep over any of it.

Posted by: steve duncan | Nov 3 2005 18:30 utc | 11

What the fuck is going on in Paris?
Anything to do with Mike Davis’s upcoming Planet of Slums?

Posted by: Dismal Science | Nov 3 2005 19:04 utc | 12

This comedy going on in Texas where Delay doesn’t want a judge who contributes to Democrats and the prosecutor points out that the man who would select a judge contributes to Republicans.
Does this stuff really happen in the US? Seems like something from the movies

Posted by: dan of steele | Nov 3 2005 19:13 utc | 13

What’s going on in Paris is what happens when you don’t have an immigration policy that’s in tune w/yr. economy.
Anybody who doesn’t want it to happen here, or ever might want a skilled job had best call their Senators today urging them to support the Byrd Amendment. bill gates now writes us policy, and they’re about to expand h-1b visas by 350,000 next yr. Senate to Vote on Byrd Amendment Finally, AFL-CIO has woken up & is supporting this bill to curtail expansion.

Posted by: jj | Nov 3 2005 19:20 utc | 14

@hamburger-
Again, this was a claim that was manifestly preposterous on its face, to anyone in the know. It is sort of like claiming that a street person broke into my house and stole 500 cartons of oreo cookies and took them from Boston, where I live, to San Francisco. First of all, I don’t have 500 cartons of cookies, and secondly, where would they put them, how would they transpoort them?
First of all, France controls all the uranium refining operations in Niger with an iron fist. 500 tons represents 1/4 of a year’s production. It is pretty hard to steal that amount from any business, except maybe the Bremer regime, without it being noticed. And then we are talking about a convoy of 500 trucks leaving Niger, a country that doesn’t even have 500 trucks of the right type, and driving completely across the continent of Africa, either up and through ISRAEL, or down and loaded into ships and shipped to Iraq’s Southern Port and then up into the country undetected by satellite, intellegence etc. C’mon.
That the MSM buys this shit shows a) their ability to think critically is marginal, at best; and b) that they are instruments of DISinformation.

Posted by: Malooga | Nov 3 2005 20:14 utc | 15

Bar snack!
Rove Deathwatch.

Posted by: beq | Nov 3 2005 20:36 utc | 16

The lack of meaningful employment for the poor of Paris will play quite a role in winding up the kids to throw rocks but structural unemployment doesn’t have to lead to rioting particularly in a state that trumpets long and hard about it’s social safety net.
A good portion of these kids don’t conform to the classic french appearance (ie not white) and some in so far as they have any religion at all will have an Islamic background.
Without digging up the debate about schoolgirls in headscarves too much I did watch a doco which was basically just a camera filming the interactions between the school authorities and students on the first day back at school last year when religious symbols were prohibited.
It was one of those classic examples of why, unless there is absolutely no alternative, trying to control others will always lead to misunderstanding, no matter how well meaning the rule makers may be.
Whatever the motivation for banning Muslim girls from covering their heads the students took the ban as a direct attempt by the establishment to repress them.
Many of the teachers were reasonable and others were transparently racist. They were using this situation as a means of imposing their feelings about the French immigration policy. One teacher who appeared to be otherwise intelligent enough kept carrying on about the French who had been killed in Algeria.
Anglos tend to laugh at French Chauvinism in the most patronising way and since both Anglos and French are sufficiently self confident to be reasonably thick skinned, mostly the friction between the two leads to shouting and not much more. However if you’re an African or Middle Eastern migrant, French nationalism must feel awfully like racial oppression.
It’s probably even more complex in the US.
It worries me that the AFL-CIO have left it until now to vent their spleen on migration. It is important to remember that the problems arising from migration must be sheeted home to the policy makers not the migrants themselves.
The coporatists have been using migrants to keep wages low pretty much since the declaration of Independence or at least since abolition and industrialisation.
If un and underemployed US residents (legal or otherwise) ensure their attacks are directed at the corporatists they have a good chance of being successful. If they fall into the trap the corporatists want them to, that is arguing amongst themselves their expoitation has only just begun.
The legal/illegal issue is particularly bad since both US born and migrant workers are disadvantaged by the lack of security migrant workers have.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Nov 3 2005 20:39 utc | 17

@Malooga + Hamburger
Iraq had 500(?) tons of yellowcake sealed by the IAEA and could have used that if it would have made any sense.
The issue is (at least to any engineer/chemist with just a bit of knowledge about the process) complete nonsense as the process to enrich yellowcake to weapon garde U239(1) plus to develop a nuclear device(2) plus to develop a vehicle that could transport that device more than a few miles(3) is a very complicate industrial process that is in need of sophisticated machinery, experimentation and experience and a very solid industrial base.
The Chinese had trouble with this for some 20 years before they produced something reasonable. Iran is still not able to produce reactor fuel which is much less enriched than bomb grade uranium.
Iraq was under sanctions, disarmed. The industry base was bombed to nihilation several times during the 1990s. The thought of them having ANY nuclear capability was just redicules.
Anybody now saying, well they could have had something is just bullshitting. There was never any support from people who knew this stuff for that assessment.

Posted by: b | Nov 3 2005 20:49 utc | 18

NATIONAL STRIKE DAY
Are we a people afraid?
Have we lost all sense of community and purpose and ability to act?
WE MUST STAND TOGETHER
What has happened to us? Where are the leaders of the likes that led the labor movement so many years ago that gave the workingman a chance?
The powers that be have us quelled and sedated in front of the latest spectacle, and all we do is bitch on a blog? march on a Saturday? write letters to the editors? boycott WalMart? it ain’t enough. do you see it working yet?
It’s time to be heard.
It’s time to put your ass on the line.
It’s time to stand up.
IT’S TIME TO STRIKE!
GRAB YOUR PITCHFORKS AND TORCHES AND JOIN ME ON YOUR TOWN SQUARE
DECEMBER 7, 2005 AT NOON.
DON’T GO TO WORK
DON’T GO TO SCHOOL
CLOSE YOUR BUSINESS
IT’S TIME FOR THEM TO BE AFRAID

Posted by: dk | Nov 3 2005 21:07 utc | 19

There’s really no evidence that Afghanistan or anyone living there was responsible for the 9-11 attacks. This is the basic faulty assumption that underlies all discussions of the War on Terra ( which, incidentally, if you know Latin, makes this whole thing even MORE sinister ). Liberal sites all proclaim that Bush & Co. are nothing but pathological liars but they apparently believe that on 9-11 and thereabouts, the Administration told nothing but the truth. Well, no it didn’t. The ONLY proof the Administration has offered in support of its theory that Al-Queda did 9-11 is a medium-quality photo which is supposedly Mohammed Atta going thru an airport checkpoint. But it doesn’t LOOK LIKE their other, presumably passport, photo of Mohammed Atta. So, a photo of an unidentified man proves absolutely nothing. That’s the basis for launching military strikes on a defenseless nation? Americans should be ashamed of themselves. For believing a load of poppycock.

Posted by: ShadoGovernment | Nov 3 2005 21:19 utc | 20

The trouble outside Paris shows several things:
1) the same kind of lack of territorial organisation as Katrina evidenced
2) the hubris of the French Républicain ideal; throw a bit of money at a problem and forget about it. Again, similar to the US in a way – and note the non-white youths fighting cops, whom they see as invading their turf, as that is all they have and they need to keep it theirs. The posturing and fake astonishment of the elite isn’t fooling many.
3) the dregs of ancient history (colonialism, etc.) – once more, etc.
4) the effects of a new paragdim – economy, globalisation, etc. How can uneducated poor Muslims in France compete with Chinese workers ??

Posted by: Noisette | Nov 3 2005 21:20 utc | 21

They big guns are going after Cheney to exulpate Bush now.
Cheney’s staff backed policies that led to prisoner abuse: ex official

US Vice President Dick Cheney’s office was responsible for directives which led to US soldiers abusing prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan, a former top State Department official charged.
Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson, former chief of staff to Secretary of State Colin Powell, told National Public Radio he had traced a trail of memos and directives authorizing questionable detention practices up through Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld’s office directly to Cheney’s staff.

So the “old” gang decided to shun Cheney and Rove and to keep Bush away from any scandal – see Cheney ran that show…
It may even work if, IF the can keep Cheney quiet after throwing him into the wastebasket. I doubt they can do so.

Posted by: b | Nov 3 2005 21:21 utc | 22

Malooga and b,
The point of my question was: Where are the other individuals who were said to have checked out/debunked the Niger allegation (I know all about the yellowcake, the French, the flooded mine, etc.). What I want to know is: who are these people? what has happened to them? I think it’s strange that JW is taking all the heat (from the bush crowd) when others had (already) made the same debunking claim as Joe. Are they swimming with the fishes, or what?

Posted by: Hamburger | Nov 3 2005 21:29 utc | 23

dang, my bubble of optimism is deflating fast

Posted by: dk | Nov 3 2005 21:30 utc | 24

if the carlyle cronies get rid of cheney, what about his partner in crime donald rumsfeld?. cheney himself probably doesn’t pose much of a threat of retaliation, his ticker’s not likely to support any loose lips. but that rumsfeld, he’s got quite a mouth on him.

Posted by: b real | Nov 3 2005 21:48 utc | 25

dk wrote: What has happened to us? Where are the leaders of the likes that led the labor movement so many years ago that gave the workingman a chance?
From about 1760 – 1800, when the Industrial Revolution kicked in in the ‘West’, in GB, US, others also, there was still a spirit of sharing and cohesiveness, as the old paradigm, to work, required that.
It was previously necessary to have a cohesive society, to keep birth rates low thru cultural rules, productivity more or less stable (if knocked down now and then by accidents, disease, political turmoil, raised by the same factors! etc.) – that was the only way things could work.
The sudden multiplication of productivity is unexplained (afaik) to this day. Some swear by technological change, others by use of energy, yet others by a ‘knowledge society’, others by the accumulation of capital, etc. (?)
That changed everything. From about 4000 BC to 1800 AD workers lived similar lives.
Really.
They had different food: olives and flat bread, or weak tea and bacon butties. Some used a lot of ressources for heat, others needed light – tallow candles, oil lamps. Some had big families (depressing wages but doing OK), other practised infanticide. All doffed their metaphorical caps to the authorities. The bosses. Nobility. Landlords. Governement.
And then Boom!
Productivity rose not just one percent a year for ten years to then sink..but just went on going up.
Your regular American or French peon suddenly found himself with a car, a TV, several rooms with windows, fancy shoes, tennis lesson for Junior, and the possibiliy of having a lot of sex.
They no longer give a shit.
That simple.
The labor movement was a left over of the olden days….

Posted by: Noisette | Nov 3 2005 21:56 utc | 26

ShadoGovt, you’re sceptical that a guy in a cave far beyond nowhere could lead an attack upon the most heavily guarded airspace in the history of the world? Next you’ll be saying the Sun rises in the east.
The ONLY proof the Administration has offered in support of its theory that Al-Queda did 9-11 is a medium-quality photo which is supposedly Mohammed Atta going thru an airport checkpoint.
Jesus, I lost sight of that in the mounds of bullshit…

Posted by: jj | Nov 3 2005 22:08 utc | 27

what happening in paris?
to quote malcolm x
it’s a hot time in the old town tonight

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 3 2005 22:21 utc | 28

just for the record
U.S. Health Care Costs Big Money

The survey of nearly 7,000 sick adults in the United States, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Britain and Germany found Americans were the most likely to pay at least $1,000 in out-of-pocket expenses. More than half went without needed care because of cost, the survey found, and more than a third endured mistakes and disorganized care when they did get treated.
While patients in every nation sometimes run into obstacles to getting care and face deficiencies in treatment, the United States stood out for having the highest error rates, most disorganized care and highest costs, the survey found.

Thirty-four percent reported getting the wrong medication or dose, incorrect test results, a mistake in their treatment or care, or being notified late about abnormal test results. Those types of errors were reported by only 30 percent of Canadian patients, 27 percent of Australian patients, 25 percent of New Zealanders, 23 percent of Germans and 22 percent of Britons.

What I do not get is why the big US corporations like GM don´t scream for a nationalized health care system. It would lower their costs and get them healthier workers.

Posted by: b | Nov 3 2005 23:01 utc | 29

@Hamburger (St.Pauli or HSV?)
Where are the other individuals who were said to have checked out/debunked the Niger allegation
Wilson did check in 1999(?), the US ambassador did check in early 2002, a 4 star general checked in early 2002, Wilson again in the now discussed trip late 2002. I never saw anybody doubting the above which was reported multiple times.
I don´t have time to google those names now, but I guess everybody but Wilson “declined to comment”. Career savers may be.
Check wikipedia

Previously, in February 2002, three different American officials had made efforts to verify the reports. The deputy commander of U.S. Armed Forces Europe, Marine Gen. Carlton Fulford, went to Niger and met with the country’s president. He concluded that, given the controls on Niger’s uranium supply, there was little chance any of it could have been diverted to Iraq. His report was sent to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Richard Myers. The U.S. Ambassador to Niger, Barbro Owens-Kirkpatrick, was also present at the meeting and sent similar conclusions to the State Department

Posted by: b | Nov 3 2005 23:25 utc | 30

@Hamburger (Bacon-Cheese or BBQ?)
Scott Ritter publicly declared it was false, and was promptly kicked off the MSM (and NPR), accused of having sex with a minor, etc.
I believe Richard Butler (previous head of arms inspection) came out saying it was a patent lie. MSM called him “unreliable.”
And El Baradei also made lie to their claim. They tried to kick him out, but he ended up with the Nobel Prize. Go figure. I guess the Mojo only works in the US or UK.

Posted by: Malooga | Nov 3 2005 23:55 utc | 31

@dk “dang, my bubble of optimism is deflating fast”
Don’t be like that! The idea of taking action is absolutely correct but I’m not sure a blog notice is the way to begin.
I’ve been out for a stroll this morning and I spent some time considering last nite’s debate. It occurred to me that perhaps we could talk about action in terms of it’s effectiveness, obstacles and methodolgy and as long as we steered clear of specifics the outcomes may be useful.
But when it comes down to ‘acting out’ it is vital to start small and local with people we already know.
I don’t share the view that people don’t give a shit anymore but I do agree that people won’t be prepared to do much until they are directly negatively effected by these assholes.
I’m trying to get a few chores done and am occupying my mind with kicking around a few notions of successful action and how to achieve it.
If any of it looks worthwhile I will post and I suggest others do the same.
I’m sure it goes without saying that discretion is important and we don’t need to be considering anything of dubious legality in MOA, if only because that will have MoA DoA in no time.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Nov 4 2005 0:11 utc | 32

ps it also goes without saying (which is why I forgot to say it) that nothing should be posted which b doesn’t want or which could blow back on b.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Nov 4 2005 0:16 utc | 33

Milwaukee Paper Apologizes for Accepting ‘Cooked’ WMD Evidence
WELL. Who lit a fire under your ass? Did you find your balls or just run out of bullshit?
But hey, don’t let me scare you off…
On behalf of my fellow Earthlings, please allow me to formally welcome all of you members of “The Press” to our fucking planet.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Nov 4 2005 0:25 utc | 34

Debs,
I’ve never slept at night in my life. It’s when I do my real thinking. I’m looking forward to this. Kicking around ideas about action.
Im extremely psyched at the moment as a result of our local election Tuesday, and I have some ideas I will post later.

Posted by: jm | Nov 4 2005 0:38 utc | 35

What I do not get is why the big US corporations like GM don´t scream for a nationalized health care system. It would lower their costs and get them healthier workers.
b, they are. Just not in the Mass Press. That’s why the JackAss Party is running on a platform of a Nat’l Medical System next time. I heard former Sec. of Labor Robt. Reich discuss this. (He now has an appt. to School of Public Policy @UCBerk.) He’s working w/some of the Pirates to outline a system so they can jettison their medical costs altogther. It’s essential furthermore ‘cuz elite wants to merge xUS w/Canada. So they have a 2-pronged approach. There will be a Real Medical System for those who can afford to pay. Then there will be garbage for the masses. Or in Rubin’s phrase “it will be basic”. Then, concerned that he hadn’t made his point, he circled back a few sentences later & underscored it – very basic. Meanwhile in Canada the elites are busy gutting the Exc. system they have, and building a private one for the Elites.
It will fulfill the desires of both left & right. It will be a national medical system, like the left wants, and it will be every nightmare come true for the right, that says the govt. can’t do anything right. Probably – you can see a nurse practitioner this month…a real doctor…solly, you’ll have to wait 3 mos. Etc. We’re Totally Fucked…Do Not have Children under any circumstances…and if you do, get the hell out, but further than Canada…It’s really the death of medicine for 99% of us…

Posted by: jj | Nov 4 2005 2:19 utc | 36

Uncle, happy to see that you poked yr. head in today. (Hope you’re able to separate external despair from possible internal neurochemical dysfunction that may need to be optimized.)
At least Milwaukee paper is Farrrrrr ahead of nyt. (I’ve had to rethink my system of capitalization entirely. nyt no longer rates caps!)

Posted by: jj | Nov 4 2005 2:22 utc | 37

If you haven’t moved yet to Vt. forget it – property values skyrocketing!!
Did anyone beside myself not hear about this last week. Vermont began process of secession!! Wow Fantastic!!
The members of a peaceful freedom-fighting group want no part of neo-cons running the imperialistic U.S. government. Plan to secede from the U.S. gaining momentum in the fiercely independent Green Mountain state.
 
The neo-con band of criminals running Washington, trampling on civil rights at home and invading countries at will overseas, has led a large group of strong-minded Vermont freedom-fighters with no choice but to secede from the United States.
 
And last Friday at the state capital building in Montpelier, a historic independence convention was held, the first of its kind in the United States since May 20, 1861, when North Carolina decided to leave the Union.
 
A packed House Chamber in the Vermont statehouse, with more than 400 gathered, started the daylong secession convention with a speech by keynote James Howard Kunstler, author of The Long Emergency, and ended with a resolution passed to secede from the United States.
 
Most people think of secession as impossible if not treasonous, but the concept is deeply rooted in the Declaration of Independence, reminding us that “Whenever any form of government becomes destructive, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it and to institute new government.”
 …
Although the resolution is the first step in the long process that needs support from the state legislators – as well as an officially recognized convention – the grass roots group called the Second Vermont Republic passed the following citizen’s resolution:
 
“Be it resolved that the state of Vermont peacefully and democratically free itself from the United States of America and return to its natural status as an independent republic as it was between January 15, 1777 and March 4, 1791.”


“First and foremost, we want out of the United States. It’s not just an anti-Bush statement and if Kerry was elected, we still would have wanted out,” said Naylor[former Duke Econ. Prof.]. “The reality is that we have a one party system in this country, called the Republican party, that is owned and operated and controlled by corporate America. So it’s not just a Bush protest, but a protest against the Empire.”
….
Bet Bu$hCo never realized he sent National Guard to Iraq so they could learn to defend their citizens’ right to secede from the Union!!
This is probably the best strategy to fight Wall Street. Fuck you; we’ve had enough of you goddamn Vampires.

Posted by: jj | Nov 4 2005 3:04 utc | 38

I found a more extensive interview w/Retired Duke Professor Naylor in a Vt. paper. He initiated the Movement. Turns out Vt. started to secede before the Civil War in opposition to Fed. support for Slavery. So, it’s good that this movement is focused on opposition to Wall Street & Imperial Policies.
CHARLOTTE — Throughout history, every great empire has eventually met its demise. According to economist Thomas Naylor (pictured above), the United States may soon prove to be no exception because it has grown too big to sustain itself. That’s why Naylor helped form the Second Vermont Republic, an organization dedicated to the peaceful dissolution of the country, starting with the secession of Vermont.
Naylor moved to Vermont in 1993 after almost 30 years’ teaching economics at Duke University. He calls Vermont a metaphor for what he is trying to achieve. “We’re basically a state of small towns, small villages, small businesses, small churches, small schools where there’s a kind of connectedness and a sense of community,” he said.
For these reasons, Vermont, which started as an independent republic before statehood, is the perfect state to begin the trend. The idea had been in his head for close to a decade and he had written on the topic, but never felt his audience was very large.
Then, on March 5, 2003, while speaking at an anti-war rally at Johnson State College, the students wanted to know about alternatives to war, so Naylor offered up his notions about Vermont’s secession. He found a receptive audience for his beliefs and the Second Vermont Republic was born.

United States foreign policy is a major reason Naylor himself advocates secession.
“It just really bothers me paying my taxes to annihilate innocent people in Iraq and Afghanistan or anywhere else that Bush or Clinton or whoever decides they want to beat up on,” he says. “I think our foreign policy is just corrupt to the core.”
On a local level, Naylor mentions the outsourcing of manufacturing jobs to foreign countries. He predicts the day will soon come when Vermont has no manufacturing jobs left. He has little faith in the federal government to reverse these trends because, he said, Washington is too much under the control of “corporate America” and operates like a one-party system.
link

Posted by: jj | Nov 4 2005 3:19 utc | 39

@jj
Thanks indeed for the links jj, this passed completely under my radar.

Posted by: Outraged | Nov 4 2005 3:29 utc | 40

jj- if a national health care system is so bad, why does France have the best health care system in the world?
(but considering what’s happening there, how does the system work for French ppl from former colonies who are living in ghettos?)
Why is Canada ranked, over and over, as one of the best places to live, while the U.S. isn’t even in the top ten, based upon quality of life factors for a population?
The rich, in either case, will get health care. If you do not have insurance in the U.S., I know from my experience and others, you do not seek preventative care, which is generally less expensive than dealing with an illness.
I am really sick of the idea that big biz does everything better…when my ex went into a major manic episode, the insurance company required that I call them within a day or so to authorize treatment…and that was b/c of an ambulance call…otherwise I would have had to get permission beforehand.
When you’re in the middle of a crisis, you don’t exactly think to call insurance, but of course, it’s not like they’re trying to get out of honoring their commitment to actually provide coverage.
When he got sick again, soon after leaving the hospital the first time, I called the insurance company about his voluntary admission to a psych ward and the person on the phone said, as I was sitting on my kitchen floor with an infant…well, we’re not going to pay for someone to take a break like they’re going to a spa…
That stupid motherfucking piece of shit had no right to say that to someone in my situation. I filed a formal complaint after things had settled down. The large co. that used that insurer changed soon after because my complaint was not the first one.
it’s the biggest piece of lying propaganda the right wing (who benefits mightily from the meme) spouts about the efficiency of private cos.
I know doctors and therapists who will no longer accept insurance because, in order for their patients to get care, they have to lie about the patient, which then becomes part of their record. I know therapists who left the profession because of insurance cos.
American who don’t want health care as a basic human right are beyond stupid.
well, enough happy talk from me…

Posted by: fauxreal | Nov 4 2005 3:32 utc | 41

Glad I wasn’t the only one who missed it! This really helps…several states start to secede ‘cuz they’ve had enough of the Pirates…somebody somewhere has to start to listen. We Have to Make Our Own Channels. Kos did his thing last time..Time to Move On…
I’m impressed that it was started by a Duke University Econ. Professor…He can work out economics of viability…(Vermont Guardian is a fine little paper.)

Posted by: jj | Nov 4 2005 3:32 utc | 42

@Fauxreal, I never said a National Medical System was inherently so bad. I’m simply telling you that Reich said the one they were putting together for xAmerica would be an abomination. Canada had an excellent one. It depends onif they want it to be comprehensive or not. The Nations that have good ones are not simultaneously bankrupting themselves w/their Military Expenditures. That doesn’t leave much to spend. Anyway, they’re destroying our jobs as fast as they can, so we’re totally superfluous to the elite. What do you expect a medical system they build will be like under those conditions?? Huh?? Duh…

Posted by: jj | Nov 4 2005 3:36 utc | 43

actually, jj, you’re right. this country is so corrupt, it’s really not worth the effort to try to change anything. just let it all implode and try to get out beforehand.

Posted by: fauxreal | Nov 4 2005 3:38 utc | 44

I believe Vermont’s largest employer is IBM, up in Burlington, followed by whichever MultiNational bought up Ben and Jerry’s. Still, this story does bring a smile to my face. Of course, Mr. Democracy, Howard Dean, sold off the electric Co.’s, making it easy for the Multis to put a “California squeeze play” on the recalcitrant Mountaineers.
Realistically, Vermont could never suceed as an independent nation. However, I love the meme. It would be great if they got the message in Utah and started to seceed from the right. The worst that could happen is greater state’s rights.
It would be great if about 7 or 8 states started to seceed. Reading the newspaper might even be fun. The Bronx should seceed from New York City, too.

Posted by: Malooga | Nov 4 2005 3:50 utc | 45

Vermont’s state constitution allows it the right of secession. I think it is the only state that has that provision. Not sure how that works.
How does it intend to protect itself from night raids by New Yorkers crossing Lake Champlain in amphibious landing craft? Then there are the New Hampshire free booters coming across the Connecticut to rustle dairy cattle and clear cut absentee owners’ woodlots.
A Vermont National Defense Force commanded by professional grant writers with Shiatsu massage and aroma therapist field officers would not be much of a deterrent.
Could present problems.

Posted by: eftsoons | Nov 4 2005 4:03 utc | 46

The Regimist stooges at PBS have consigned the Wilkerson interview to the Friday night oubliette.
Nobody is making a fuss about this. Seems to me some noise should be made to frustrate their intent, — if it is their intent.

Posted by: eftsoons | Nov 4 2005 4:09 utc | 47

re what’s up with france
Every time I think I might just escape the american political madness and move to france, a la lupin, I am pulled up short by stories of the formation of french secret police; of french corporations buying up public water supplies; of french rightwing parties gaining ground; of french leftwing parties betraying their principles; of french corporations fronting for US corporations in oil for food scandal; of french corporations controlling natural resources in africa; of french nukes; of french support of attacks on syria; of french laws banning religious expressions; and now of french racism, poverty, and police oppression resulting in civil unrest in 20 villages for the past 8 days.
Whatever happened to liberte egalite fraternite — and their supposedly superior social system? Time to ponder a different escape route. Tant pis.

Posted by: gylangirl | Nov 4 2005 4:11 utc | 48

Whatever happened…The German Bankers in bed w/Wall Street. It’s the Same Deal In Europe, they just got a head start over here. And it’s unclear if Europe will try to emerge as a separate power bloc, which is why xUS elites are preparing to bulk up w/addition of Canada, Mexico & prob. Central America just in case. The only reason Europe can afford the Social Services it has is ‘cuz the money isn’t going down the military rathole, but if they separate from xUS that will prob. change very quickly. (Chirac is the front boy for big Fr. Military Outfit.) Look at the damn European “Constitution” they tried to ram down people’s throats. The entire purpose of that was to consolidate all the power in the hands of German Bankers away from National governments which are still a bit representative – unlike American governments.
The Western Bankers have declared War on us all. Lupin’s merely putting off his day of reckoning; and perhaps Europe won’t go broke which is worth something.
If you want to get the hell out, Norway is the only serious choice – own supply of oil & happily not part of the EU. But since you didn’t work there, it could be complicated. Also, perhaps NZ, though they’re likely to be sat on by China. I know someone who moved to Thailand – bought a business on a big island. It’s role is to be the vacation center of the “China Sea”, so life might stay fairly decent. Buddhists are an excellent cross-fertilization w/American aggressiveness, and should create some wonderfully cross-bred children. But they are starting to have problems w/their muslims. And, of course, they’re corrupt, and the sex-tourism, a haven for pedophiles…. A Greek Island Perhaps??

Posted by: jj | Nov 4 2005 4:27 utc | 49

Since Debs didn’t want the Erschossen thread to
be dedicated to his (her?) health, let me add my wishes for an optimal outcome to the present distress. It’s kind of funny to realize that our function here is partly medicinal.

Posted by: Hannah K. O’Luthon | Nov 4 2005 5:55 utc | 50

Scooter’s Filth ‘Novel’ Triggers Journalism ‘Encounter’
By Wayne Madsen 11-3-5
Last night, while engaged at the National Press Club in a conversation about Karl Rove’s treason and Scooter Libby’s revolting novel about pedophilia and other perversion, your editor was confronted by a disagreeable sort who bellowed, “You’re not a journalist!”
I asked someone who the guy worked for.
The reply, “Fox News.”

Posted by: DM | Nov 4 2005 9:34 utc | 51

Creepshow creep: Michael Ledeen.
Who Is Michael Ledeen?
Flirting With Fascism
Right Web Profile
SourceWatch article

Posted by: manonfyre | Nov 4 2005 10:43 utc | 52

Manonfyre
From the Wikipedia link on Ledeen
“There is every reason to believe we will succeed in revolutionizing the Middle East, for we have always excelled at destroying tyrannies…. We wage total war, because we fight in the name of an idea — freedom — and ideas either triumph or fail.”
If this is not fascism, I don’t know what is.

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Nov 4 2005 10:58 utc | 53

gylangirl
no places are perfct
but i offer celebrations for the anniversaire of the famille lupin because i understand deeply – the poure liveability of this country – even with the marginalised with whom i work daily
any policies that are arrived at from neglect & negligence are bound one day or another to arrive at chaos, practical chaos

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 4 2005 11:01 utc | 54

@b | Nov 3, 2005 6:25:56 PM (I’m not a soccer fan)
Thanks for the Wikipedia info and Gen Fulford’s name – that’s what I was trying to remember. Here is the end of what Spencer Ackerman wrote in the TNR Online of 07.23.03

So when Fulford, an ardent supporter of the war against Saddam, heard Bush declare that “the British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa” in this year’s State of the Union address, he was perplexed. “Either someone had done him a great disservice by putting that in, or new intelligence surfaced that proved my judgment to be totally off base,” he recalls thinking. Since Fulford lost access to “the highest intelligence” only about a month before Bush’s speech, the prospect of new information about African uranium was remote–for that matter, the White House had deliberately sourced the claim to a September 2002 British report after a CIA official complained to his National Security Council counterpart that the agency had no confidence in the item. That leaves the alternative. And “disservice” may be too polite a way of putting it.

I’d like to see Fulford and the others speaking publicly these days.

Posted by: Hamburger | Nov 4 2005 12:05 utc | 55

A quite succint series of photo’s and a loaded caption at Nur-Al-Cubicle

‘Hmm. Where are the masses hailing the Leader of the Free World?’

Insightfull …
Inspires me to speculate on the imaginary idle aside of a fictional Roman Emperor …
‘I don’t desire nor solicit the adulation of my slaves, merely that they are periodically mindfull of thier status by ordering public crucifixions …’

Posted by: Outraged | Nov 4 2005 12:11 utc | 56

The French have a long tradition of burning cars to let off steam.
It’s nice to see that second generation north african kids have embraced French traditions. Shows signs of assimilation.

Posted by: Lupin | Nov 4 2005 12:16 utc | 57

@Malooga | Nov 3, 2005 6:55:17 PM (a Bostonian, I presume?)
Right. That’s why I was/am interested in seeing the military (ret. Gen. Fulford) and other “insiders” publicly identified and asked to support/verify Joe Wilson’s claim.

Posted by: Hamburger | Nov 4 2005 12:18 utc | 58

@gylangirl.
We didn’t just move to France. We moved to a SMALL VILLAGE in the Aude-Ariege, the most tradtionally lefty area of all French countryside.
They’re still pissed off at Louis IX for burning off the Cathars in the 13th century, no kidding.
Until today our local paper did not even talk about the Paris riots (I had to find out about it by looking at US websites.)
Besides they’re not riots (says he in a Crocodile Dundee voice). I was in LA when we had the Rodney King riots. THAT was a riot. If you want to talk riots like that, then wake me up when the Champs Elysees are deserted except for patrolling military! The French are pussies! 🙂
I was also in France in ’68 (age 14 going to the Lycee International in Fontainebleau – my dad was in the service) and the country virtually stopped for a month (missed my weekly comics real badly) and De Gaulle had to flee to Baden-Baden.
Now that was a riot.

Posted by: Lupin | Nov 4 2005 12:23 utc | 59

I love it down there in Aude, especially in the southern bits where the language starts to mesh with that of the insaniac Catalans.
Bonne anniversaire, Lupin & Mme L.

Posted by: Dismal Science | Nov 4 2005 13:07 utc | 60

@lupin,
wake me up when the Champs Elysees are deserted except for patrolling military!
umm… that would be bastille day, right? ;^)
congratulations on your anniversary and what a nice blog. it linked to the calanques of cassis, thanks for that.

Posted by: gylangirl | Nov 4 2005 15:32 utc | 61

@Hamburger
sorry about the fun with the moniker. Yes, I live in Bahston.
I think we are very close, one more indictment possibly, to a dam of Fulfords breaking loose. Or maybe it is being timed for maximum drip effect, so the Bushites never regain their footing.
@Lupin-
Congrats. What do you do down there? I think half of the American constituency here at the bar is ready to join you.

Posted by: Malooga | Nov 4 2005 16:40 utc | 62

Filipino Activists Want U.S. Military Out
By OLIVER TEVES
Associated Press Writer
MANILA, Philippines (AP) – Activists called Friday for the scrapping of an agreement allowing joint exercises between Philippine and U.S. troops after a Filipino woman claimed she was raped by six Marines…
Bush Sidesteps Questions About CIA Leak
By NEDRA PICKLER
Associated Press Writer
MAR DEL PLATA, Argentina (AP) – President Bush sidestepped questions Friday about whether he owes the American people an apology for the role of administration officials in the CIA leak case. He also refused to comment on calls for a staff shakeup…
Bush Tries to Improve U.S. Image at Summit
By NEDRA PICKLER
Associated Press Writer
MAR DEL PLATA, Argentina (AP) – President Bush on Friday worked to smooth the United States’ troubled image in Latin America, commending Argentina’s efforts to improve its damaged economy

Posted by: Outraged | Nov 4 2005 17:36 utc | 63

Britain isolated over role in Afghanistan
Allies reluctant to get involved in war on terror as tribal feuds and opium trade hinder peacekeeping.

Posted by: Outraged | Nov 4 2005 17:41 utc | 64

“…it appears Libby’s saga may be only Act Two in a three-act play. And in my view, the person who should be tossing and turning at night, in anticipation of the last act, is the Vice President of the United States, Richard B. Cheney.”

sez John Dean.

Posted by: beq | Nov 4 2005 18:53 utc | 65

Der Spiegel had a story (in German) earlier today about Larry Wilkerson’s talk on NPR yesterday. No major US blog or paper carried this.
There was no transcript available and after I listened to it I found it rather vague. So I didn´t write about it but Froomkin does and he has parts of the transcript:

On NPR yesterday, the former chief of staff to the secretary of state said that he had uncovered a “visible audit trail” tracing the practice of prisoner abuse by U.S. soldiers directly back to Vice President Cheney’s office.

“INSKEEP: While in the government, he says he was assigned to gather documents. He traced just how Americans came to be accused of abusing prisoners. In 2002, a presidential memo had ordered that detainees be treated in a manner consistent with the Geneva Conventions that forbid torture. Wilkerson says the vice president’s office pushed for a more expansive policy.
“Mr. WILKERSON: What happened was that the secretary of Defense, under the cover of the vice president’s office, began to create an environment — and this started from the very beginning when David Addington, the vice president’s lawyer, was a staunch advocate of allowing the president in his capacity as commander in chief to deviate from the Geneva Conventions. Regardless of the president having put out this memo, they began to authorize procedures within the armed forces that led to, in my view, what we’ve seen.
“INSKEEP: We have to get more detail about that because the military will say, the Pentagon will say they’ve investigated this repeatedly and that all the investigations have found that the abuses were committed by a relatively small number of people at relatively low levels. What hard evidence takes those abuses up the chain of command and lands them in the vice president’s office, which is where you’re placing it?
“Mr. WILKERSON: I’m privy to the paperwork, both classified and unclassified, that the secretary of State asked me to assemble on how this all got started, what the audit trail was, and when I began to assemble this paperwork, which I no longer have access to, it was clear to me that there was a visible audit trail from the vice president’s office through the secretary of Defense down to the commanders in the field that in carefully couched terms — I’ll give you that — that to a soldier in the field meant two things: We’re not getting enough good intelligence and you need to get that evidence, and, oh, by the way, here’s some ways you probably can get it. And even some of the ways that they detailed were not in accordance with the spirit of the Geneva Conventions and the law of war.

Some stuff Froomkin doesn´t have but which are in the interview:
– Powell ordered Wilkerson to search for a paper trial of torture memos
– Wilkerson talks about a memo on the real number of troops needed for Iraq and thinks it has never reached the president. He doesn´t say if Rumsfeld or Cheney did hold it up.
– The Presidents NSC staff emails were read by VP Cheneys shadow “NSC”. Some NSC staffers knowing this stopped using email.
– Tenet briefed Cheney on software for UAV’S that Iraq was buying. After it turned out that this was wrong intelligence, Tenet did not correct his briefing to Cheney. Wilkerson says Tenet didn´t had the balls to step up to Cheney.
At all again Wilkerson paints a picture of an isolated President and a Cheney/Rumsfeld Cabal. I see no proof that this has been the case. Bush is in this just as much as the others and Wilkerson would not have been in those meetings anyhow.

Posted by: b | Nov 4 2005 19:14 utc | 66

Should the U.S. Withdraw? Let the Iraqi People Decide
A February poll by the U.S. military, cited by the Brookings Institution, found that 71 percent of Iraqis “oppose the presence of Coalition Forces in Iraq.” This poll was taken only in urban areas, but others have found much the same sentiment. According to a January 2005 poll by Abu Dhabi TV/Zogby International, 82 percent of Sunni Arabs and 69 percent of Shiite Arabs favor the withdrawal of U.S. troops either immediately or after an elected government is in place.

Posted by: Snippet | Nov 4 2005 19:35 utc | 67

number of cars deliberately burnt up in France, this year till now:
28,000
(from a Swiss newspaper; these numbers are not published in France, afaik.)
I tried to check it, no luck, but:
New Years eve:
L’an dernier, 324 voitures avaient été brûlées au cours de cette même nuit, contre 379 en 2002 et 388 en 2001.
on 1.1.2005 it was 330 (whole of France).
Ok, New Year is a special night.
On 15 July 2005, 400 cars were burnt in Ile de France (Greater Paris) -newspaper. Again, a special date.
The mayor of Tremblay writes 20,000 cars burnt in 2005 till July – leak from a secret meeting. he asks: were they all counted?
1,300 cars burnt in Strasbourg in 2002. and ‘gone up each year since’ says article.
So, make of it what you will…
Burning up cars is …interesting.

Posted by: Noisette | Nov 5 2005 0:17 utc | 68

lupin
my position is quite simple
any country which cuts off the head of their king can’t be all bad
that moment my friend, really, that was a riot

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 5 2005 0:48 utc | 69