“Care to Comment ?” – Moon of Alabama

November 5, 2005

“Care to Comment ?”

Billmon has deleted his prominent Whiskey Bar "Care to Comment ?" link to this site, Moon of Alabama.

He did this before my recent piece, which takes exception to inevitable wars on foreign countries – so the reasoning must have been something other than that.

Maybe too much wacked out Stalinist fruit cake here for his taste? Taste differs.

I don´t know.

Hey, barkeeper, your honor, at least you could have shouted last call – couldn´t you?

Posted by b on November 5, 2005 at 21:58 UTC | Permalink

Comments

I’ve noticed that something like this happens every single time George Bush is out of the country. People unleash.

Posted by: jm | Nov 6 2005 23:53 utc | 101

I have one thing that I hope will add. When discussing what someone knows or means, it is probably fair to assume that they know and understand more than they say, or write.
Somehow Juan Cole’s reputation seemed to suffer a great deal from the assumption that he is not willing to think things which he has not been willing to commit to in writing.
Will try to play the ball more consistently.

Posted by: citizen | Nov 6 2005 23:54 utc | 102

@jm
i Understanding is always a good antidote and a controlling of the shame or embarrassment if any of us say things beneath our usual level of refinement. If we backslide into immature behavior, so be it. We will recover.
So be it? We will recover? Who is ‘we’?
No forum rules are needed — common courtesy. Pile-on is not okay, neither is personal attack. Debate is about issues. When it disintegrates to the level of personality, it is no longer debate.
This isn’t about parental judgment either. It is though about accountability… and I don’t see much of that here… on this thread.

Posted by: crone | Nov 6 2005 23:58 utc | 103

I have seen a wonderful level of courtesy at Moon of Alabama, which is why I frequent the forum. One lapse is not a major crime. You will see the usual respect return momentarily since that is it’s natural character. Not to panic. No one is to blame for this, since many individuals came together in this eruption. And Billmon was part of it too.
“we” is just as it says….”we”. This is a group. Within a group, you will always get the whole spectrum of behavior. Whoever dominates and sets the tone and rules is determined by time, and that changes.
I think this is so important as the whole country is in a leadership crisis and we have so much to learn if we want to govern ourselves.

Posted by: jm | Nov 7 2005 0:11 utc | 104

The things you mention, Crone, are not OK. Yes. But there is no way to stop them from happening. How we handle it is the thing. The personal, the human, the flawed, are always a part of the mix, as we strive for perfection.

Posted by: jm | Nov 7 2005 0:15 utc | 105

Well, if you can’t do it in a bar, there’s not much hope for it out in the countryside… where you have to coexist with folks who aren’t as erudite or forgiving of bad manners.
Insulting the host is bad form… as Captain Hook would say. Even pirates know what correct form is.
The greatest distinction between the jungle and civilization is imho manners… rules of conduct, engagement. Throw those out, and … well, another Friday night at the bar.
This thread began with comments containing name calling…
I haven’t read it all the way through… there were some lamentations about missing Billmon… a lot of dissecting… not much responsibility or apology.
People get caught up in emotional discussion all the time. An apology would go a long way toward healing.
Namaste

Posted by: crone | Nov 7 2005 0:20 utc | 106

And I think this whole part of concerned society is sick of the constant repetetive crises of this administration. The same thing over and over and over.
Bush left and MoA had its own crisis. One which the participants have some control over. And I guarantee, will be corrected.

Posted by: jm | Nov 7 2005 0:20 utc | 107

@jm – Is there a set of rules in this forum?
There is just one rule – don´t spam or troll.
What exactly are the dictums?
Don´t know, but it´s my credit card and time – so I decide and there is, unfortunatly, no appeal.
Billmon is in all his rights to delete the “Care to Comment” link. I don´t blame him for doing so – but I was a bit sad when he did so.
It takes lots and lots of hours to run this site the way I do it and I did and do it to keep a forum to discuss his posts and to keep the community. It’s important for me to read the things posted here and it´s important to me to read Billmon’s stuff.
There is a certain refreshing the community here needs from time to time. The refreshing, new folks, come through links from other sites. As Billmon was the most prominent link to here, it is a loss. But it is not a deadly one. We’ll keep going.

Posted by: b | Nov 7 2005 0:21 utc | 108

There should be some level of decorum on the site out of respect for other opinions. Everyone has their own political philosophy and like to stress their way of seeing things. Cynical thnking is the norm when something anathema (Bush) to them is running things. I don’t know how envolved persons on the site are, but I try to make a diffrence on the local and state level every day. Part of it is my job, but, I do have a love of politics and making a difference by using government in a positive way gives me great pleasure.
I also believe persons on the site know what I am talking about when I post, which I am sure sometimes they don’t. I live in Michigan and the economy and politics is thrown in our face very day. Michigan’s economy has lagged the country since Bush took office. The state never does well under Rethugs. The Delphi situation has loads of people scared and unsure of the states future.
Now to billmon. As stated above, I enjoy billmons writing. What I like best is when he uses humor in the post. I will keep reading him and I would like to give a big thnk you to b for keeping the site going. We should all have one overarching goal, and thats to push an agenda for regime change and to use governemnt for the betterment of US citizens instaed of the betterment of elites and corps.

Posted by: jdp | Nov 7 2005 0:48 utc | 109

What you said, jdp.

Posted by: beq | Nov 7 2005 0:51 utc | 110

Bill was scared of the California vote fraud story crosslinked on the “stalinist fruitcake” thread. We have disagreed before. See the 7/7 bombing thread, where he pulled a Boromir. “For pities sake can’t we mourn a little.”
This time he’s got almost a week’s warning. Not that he’ll do anything with it.

Posted by: patience | Nov 7 2005 4:25 utc | 111

cuttings from “a personal reckoning” posted at another forum:
This forum is not, per se, a group therapy session engaged in close examination of our interior, subjective, individual states and stages of being (see Ken Wilber’s, “Four Quadrants”). Rather, the implicit bounds of polite conversation here demark, more or less, the inter-objective, exterior realm of “politics” alone.
There is no explicit exclusion: “Come one, come all. Gather ’round the table. Let’s talk politics, BUT check your neurosis and any forms of psychoanalysis at the door!”
Still, who among us approaches and sits at this table without hauling some neurosis — great or small — right along with us?
Me, I am a “heart-on-his-sleeve” kind of guy. And it is impossible, really, for me to describe what I “see” going down in the world around me without some reference to and examination of the “lens” through which I see the world — without some reference to and examination of my own interior, subjective state of being. Perhaps, this itself is merely a piece of a neurotic complusion yet to be alleviaed in my case. Be that as it may, I feel OBLIGED, along with noticing the state of the world around me, both to engage in this self examination AND to REPORT back to you, my compatriots, about it.
On politics: George Bush is an asshole! And, to be perfectly honest, in this respect and this, oh yeah, and it that respect also, so am I.
Elsewhere on this forum, I have confessed my rank ignorance regarding some of the subjects of discussion here — fashioning a progressivie economic model and agenda, for instance. In the scheme of the Little Red School House, I sit toward the back of the class.
Also, while ardent in many of my views, I lack skill in expressing these views. Passion unameliorated by enough Reason: “blithering.”
Also, I recognise that my focus on the “ills” around me is, sometimes, a means of avoiding a more pertinent examination my own private and personal dysfunction.
Last night, I fell into a conflagration of such self-doubt, I came to this forum and actually started to delete, by “edit,” my own, what are clearly, very wooly-minded posts. I was going to pick up all my toys and run away. But I thought better of that. I’d turned a feeling of defeat about my own puny inability to tear down the true Asses of Evil (just for instance) inward and onto myself. Gotta tear somethin’ down!
blah, blah, blah.
While we have no clear insight into Billmon’s personal life and situation, nor any right to that information, in what I would guess has been some similar “conflagration of doubt” for Billmon, the “care to comment” link came down.
For all we know, some tender mercy is in order.

Posted by: manonfyre | Nov 7 2005 4:43 utc | 112

You folks have a lot of sass and sauce in you.
I’m very pleased.

Posted by: jm | Nov 7 2005 5:26 utc | 113

Having read this entire thread – oy gevalt!

Posted by: vze3cskc@verizon.net | Nov 7 2005 5:28 utc | 114

I, for one, would like to thank b for all his work in maintaining this site. I lost track of WB after Billmon stopped posting, and came relatively recently to this site. Constitutionally a lurker, this is the only site I have ever felt involved enough in to post, and become more a part of the community.
And I would like to thank Billmon for WB. There may be other bloggers who excel in one small or unique way or another, but no other blogger I know who so encapsulates my ideals of what an intelligent, entertaining, thoughtful blog should be. I know how much I have learned from him, and how much he has broadened my horizons. I felt like someone I knew had died when he stopped posting last year. And, to my mind, there is nothing like this community he has spawned, and b has continued.
That said, I went back to the thread in question and I did post 6 or 7 times, at least 4 of them critical of Billmon. It seems to me that I was critical of his positions and not his person, so I feel justified in posting what I did because it seems to me that perhaps the prime rationale for this blog is to have a forum where we can discuss, and argue our views among people we respect; a place where we can test our opinions, reconstruct if need be, refine and hone our arguments before taking them out into the real world to educate and convince others.
I have read through this whole post. It has been alternatingly poignant, funny, and painful. Perhaps it is good to air things out a bit. But I think we should soon get back to arguing views, rather than continuing with personality analysis, as all of us eccentrics have enough foibles to ground the greater work to a complete halt.
Yours in friendship,

Posted by: Malooga | Nov 7 2005 5:56 utc | 115

Just wandered back in after a day and a half away. Whew! I don’t always agree with Billmon but do always find him worth reading and will keep doing so. I also enjoy RGiap’s commentary – and many others – and will continue to. My sentiments are with Alabama, jdp and crone and others who have who have posted along those lines.
Also, thanks again to B – should say this more often – for keeping this place open. It’s still my favorite bar in cyberspace even though we occasionally trash it. You have been most generous with your time and your credit card. Please let us know if we can help a bit with at least the latter.

Posted by: lonesomeG | Nov 7 2005 8:01 utc | 116

I’d like to raise my glass in a toast to b, Billmon, The Whiskey Bar, and Moon of Alabama, but worry not…it’s empty right now.
When it’s full again I will drink to the continued joy of Moon of Alabama.
Before we return to the agony of current events….
Many years ago a dear friend of mine, a Southern raised gentleman, hosted a dinner party for a group of his friends. There was a beautiful table created and drinks were flowing. A sumptuous Italian dinner was served, cooked by him personally, and robust emotional Italian operatic songs charged the atmosphere. Wine was flowing.
The conversation became heated and quarreling started. Drinks were poured. Eventually everyone was fighting but the miniature Chinese dog. The host ended up getting slapped by a rather large buxom blond.
These folks quickly made up and continued their sometimes magical relationships for many more years.
This beloved gentleman was a madcap genius artist who crusaded for self expression all his life. He lit up the lives of everyone who came into his aura. And those who did, found parts of themselves hidden and repressed and longing to find the light of day. Parts they didn’t even know existed.
Oppressive governments have an uncanny way of stimulating personal freedom of expression. And people have an untapped reserve of knowledge as to how to govern themselves.

Posted by: jm | Nov 7 2005 8:52 utc | 117

For me, the Fruitcake Affair with all of its discomfort, also had elements of truth and a certain grace.
With this, I am impressed.

Posted by: jm | Nov 7 2005 9:23 utc | 118

jm
This thread wasn’t called ‘Care to comment 21 times?’
Say something once, why say it again?

Posted by: Psychokiller | Nov 7 2005 11:25 utc | 119

Because of an urge, Psycho.

Posted by: jm | Nov 7 2005 12:08 utc | 120

@jm
Take a hike.
@b
Thank you for all the heavy lifting, dedication, calm and perspective. I very much appreciate MOA.
@Monolycus
You and I are soulmates, which we discovered on a previous occasion.
@Uncle $cam and other learned colleagues, let’s carry on for obvious reasons. This is the only Brain Trust on the web. Billmon brought it into being. He remains the top gun and I read every word he writes.
Not much fun being the token libertarian here. But I listen to the communists and syndies with respect, if not much pleasure, because this is the only forum where thoughtful people can gather and trade ideas.
We owe Billmon a great deal. I don’t blame him for blowing another fuse.

Posted by: Wolf DeVoon | Nov 7 2005 14:13 utc | 121

@jm
Take a hike.
I did it, Wolf.
It’s nice out there. Kicked some leaves. Indian Summer and all.
Good idea. Thanks.

Posted by: jm | Nov 8 2005 1:08 utc | 122

jm
Your inability to ‘let go’ is what we call an ‘obsessive compulsion’. You can get help for it if you can summon up enough courage to admit to yourself that you have a problem. As you trail back here, again and again, ask yourself just what your 23 posts on this thread might signify, what they can perhaps tell you about yourself.

Posted by: Dr. John Grohol | Nov 8 2005 1:29 utc | 123

I agree.
I also ask each and every one of you about your obsession with torture, fascism, and, killing.

Posted by: jm | Nov 8 2005 1:35 utc | 124

And if you really want to do arithmetic, count how many times those words have been repeated in these threads.

Posted by: jm | Nov 8 2005 1:41 utc | 125

I think jm is fine, I wish the fuck you guys would lay off. We have much more serious things going on such as Breaking news of Italian Satellite TV Broadcasting Evidence of US Use of Chemical Weapons on Civilians and Video/torrents of the crimes.
“It is no sign of mental health to be well adjusted to a sick society.”!!!

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Nov 8 2005 1:44 utc | 126

First, I like fruitcake. Sure, the orthodoxy scorns it as the gift not worth giving or keeping. I like it.
ReGarding the inedible fruitcake at hand, he is many splinters away from Stalinist. The Maoist alone …..
Second, in all the self congratulation here, about superiority of so many tag alongs to the source writer, for many fancied reasons, I missed the part where the self annointed found time and means to mention the original point of departure: whether decent people allow applause of the slaughter of innocent women and children as a sign of herd superiority.
Fucking morons.

Posted by: razor | Nov 8 2005 1:56 utc | 127

This my chance and I’m taking it. And it will be all for now.
I am in awe of how so many people sit on their asses complaining about corporations and refuse to connect the facts.
Use your frippin’ arithmetic to count the number of corporate products you consume in a week. How much gas and oil? How much plastic? How many ass-phalt roads? How many disgusting corporate restaurants? How many corporate stores? How many joy rides on corporate diesel sucking airplanes? How many brilliant words get pecked out daily on these corporate made computers?
Don’t tell me you have no choice! There are plenty of small businessmen struggling to survive but YOU WON’T SUPPORT THEM in your lust for cheap goods.
As long as you eat without stopping from their hands they will control you no matter how much talk about revolution goes on.

Posted by: jm | Nov 8 2005 2:21 utc | 128

@ razor If you want to troll at least do it in the open thread where people may choose to respond something most won’t do in this thread which is ‘over’.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Nov 8 2005 2:58 utc | 129

Try this one: If I don’t want to troll ….

Posted by: razor | Nov 8 2005 3:12 utc | 130

Ha…wrote a post, was told to wait, lost it. I’ll not go to the trouble of re-creating it for MOA – its hard work y’know. In essence it is agreement with jm’s last. FWIW.
Might be back, might not.

Posted by: rapt | Nov 8 2005 3:33 utc | 131

Up until now, it has been my belief that Billmon was excited at having met Juan Cole and therefore felt extra humiliated when postings were unusually critical of him and Juan Cole.
So, imagine my surprise when I see that Juan Cole has now added comments to his blog! Perhaps it was something Billmon said. I agree with many of the commenters to Prof. Cole’s blog that the addition of comments probably won’t work for a blog like his, just attrack endless trollers and hate, and waste his time, but time will tell how the experiment progresses.
The fact that Billmon has not posted for the last few days seems to indicate that we have not overreacted or misunderstood the meaning of his absence.

Posted by: Malooga | Nov 8 2005 7:39 utc | 132

Billmon could be not posting for a million work or family related things. However at the same time to have removed his link to “moon” (after certain postings) indicates something else at work… fear.

My hunch: I think Billmon is afraid that he is being set up by agents provocateurs for a visit by the FBI and has folded his tent.

Will he be back?

Yes of course, he tried to quit before, but his addiction to the blogging format is just too strong.

Posted by: Al Green | Nov 8 2005 10:43 utc | 133

Naw, Billmon likes fire, not smoke(commentary).

Posted by: anna missed | Nov 8 2005 10:47 utc | 134

Billmon has a well-developed and well-furnished mind, but his emotional system is not heavily wired enough to handle the wattage his mind produces… In himself and in others.

On occasion he blows a fuse.

Posted by: Al Green | Nov 8 2005 11:08 utc | 135

his emotional system is not heavily wired enough to handle the wattage his mind produces
this thread is really starting to piss me off. i feel embarrassed for ever posting on it. assumtions like these are insulting.
at this point we don’t even deserve billmon. obviously the poster making this statement knows this or he/she wouldn’t post anonomously. i want this thread to go away. disappear. wiped from moon. forever. this speculation and bickering has gone on long enough. we owe billmon an apology. i for one will say it again. i am sorry billmon.

Posted by: annie | Nov 8 2005 17:47 utc | 136

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