i hope it’s temporary. maybe there was too much friday night wilding. i hope he doesn’t stop posting or anything. the last time i missed him so much.

Posted by: annie | Nov 5 2005 22:17 utc | 3

Put this together with the quote from Kevin Drum about how this error could not be avoided.
Maybe some of the Americans who have been thinking about this stuff for the longest just can’t deal with it anymore.
I mean, it is unbelievably depressing how much damage has been done, and as in the case of the successful invasion of Poland, this may just be the bare beginning.

Posted by: cc | Nov 5 2005 22:26 utc | 5

ouch. not much of a fruitcake fan myself. i just take what i want and leave the rest. but there did seem to be a pile-on happening that would leave a bad taste in anyone’s mouth. i think some folks might have let our beloved r’giap and our esteemed billmon handle it between themselves. barroom brawls can lead to property damage.

Posted by: gylangirl | Nov 5 2005 22:33 utc | 7

i may very well be a fruitcake but i do not cover myself in the soft & seamy pornography of white skin privilege
i hardly think it would be juvenille to take offense to this statement. billmon was sharing his experience of his meeting w/dr cole, someone i too hold in high regard. perhaps we were not respectful and brought shame by the tenor of some of our remarks. i have always felt free here to say whatever i was feeling, but there is a time and a place. and perhaps this wasn’t the appropiate post to do a pile on. i also think it is quite a shift to question the validity of the import of the whole zarqawi bruhaw during a time they are using the threat of foriegn terrorists too justify an escalation into syria.
maybe we wasted an opportunity and dwelled on other aspects of the post instead of the point. i don’t know, it’s hard to get into someones head, especially a head as complex as billmons. but to write anything off as juvenille is a mistake.
lets not dig a grave when we find a hole.

Posted by: annie | Nov 5 2005 22:37 utc | 9

annie please, billmon threw the first punch. r’giap is just a more skilled pugilistic writer.

Posted by: dk | Nov 5 2005 22:41 utc | 11

Good point Annie.
I think this is important. On and on and on and on we go about this war in a distant land. Armchair experts. And when conflict hits home, people freak.
I have always witnessed in awe, the crying about warfare and the total ignorance of all the emotional subterfuge going on in families, so-called frienships, workplaces, and in all other relationships. People worship verbal violence from their actors, and other celebrities. I can’t help but feel that the problem of war on a global scale must be addressed in the facing of resolution of conflict on a personal scale.
We have to start somewhere.
I think we are entering a tense period as we are slowly being released from bondage. At least from this administration. It will become more and more riveting, but the methodical slow pace will unnerve many. And the pressure that has built in these last years will release itself in many ways, not all pleasant.
A great deal of understanding would help. And ideally, a response to the urge to help one another weather the emotional storms.

Posted by: jm | Nov 5 2005 22:54 utc | 13

a world is going up in flames & someone wants to play power games – i find that dissapointing
i think the site does honour to billmon in taking seriouslly his comments – that is a gift very few ‘journalists’ ever have their pleasure & the cadeaux of comprehending
for myself, i know i have been utterly transparent on whom & what i am & have never been in the evangilical mode – as i’ve sd often enough – it is our difference that provides the quality
i am greatul that these posts which are often written in fury i feel most of my days – that people arrive through all the typographical errors, lapsus, ellipsis & plain delire sometimes – to not only sense their meaning but to communicate – really with them
i in turn have mentioned often enough – i would come here just for the very capable researchers/researches that take place here – outraged uncle $cam & cloned poster provide a breadth of material that i find necessary to follow
during this affaire plame – i have visited far & wide – & the quality of this site’s multiplicity & sheer weight make it singular
i hope billmon calms down & sees the power thang for what it is & it is thatthat i find oddest – he who detests stalinism – does not take very kindly to shifts from the party line
in hope & struggle

Posted by: r’giap | Nov 5 2005 23:02 utc | 15

billmon threw the first punch
hmm. i don’t know if we want to go down that road. that wasn’t at all that clear to me.there was an assumption right at the beginning of the thread w/ an interpretation of the ‘our’ in ‘our primary opponent’. it’s been a long week.
as far as anyone being a more skilled pugilistic writer than billmon i beg to differ. i’m glad he didn’t unleash whatever wrath he may have been feeling and held back. something tells we we got off lucky.

Posted by: annie | Nov 5 2005 23:05 utc | 17

Now I’m excited.
I’ve worked in bars and night clubs all my life, which has been of considerable length at this point.
I love them. They are adult recreation centers. Pressure release points for society. Ask any cop and he can tell you how important they are.
One can talk ad nauseaum in them, debate, quarrel, fight, cry, scream a bit, vomit, sing, dance, play all kinds of games, and I even once saw someone pee on the floor. In that case, he was 86’d.
There are so few places that we can break the automaton, nmannequin-type behavior we are forced into. Where pleasing others is our only option being on the other end of a dollar bill.
The long and intersting cerebral soliliquies that unleash here are what drew me in the first place. But the full spectrum includes nonsense and low forms of speech as well. They are bound to emerge. Controlling them by external force will make them less palatable in the long run.
This was not named the Whiskey Bar for no reason.

Posted by: jm | Nov 5 2005 23:12 utc | 19

ok, bear with me, i am aware i am repeating myself.
i have a roomate once who would get a little tipsy and sling mud around and sometimes it would land on me. usually i just let it roll off my back . and i always realized she was letting off steam that had to do w/the goings on in her life that often had nothing to do with whatever was coming out of her mouth. this went on for years. then my mother came for a visit. and she pulled this shit on me in front of her, at a party w/others on the opening night of my show. the presence of my mother made all the difference in the world. i came out w/fangs bearing and kicked her out of my house. we made up, AFTER she apologized. but i didn’t let her off easy. i was livid. sometimes you just hit a nerve. billmon is flesh and blood. i’m sure it was an honor for him to spend time w/cole. i’m sure having mud slung at him on the post was offensive to him. that’s all i have to say on this topic other than i am sorry.

Posted by: annie | Nov 5 2005 23:17 utc | 21

@Outraged: I guess I was less than clear in what I intended to convey.
Anyway, my sentiments are with Annie and alabama.

Posted by: none | Nov 5 2005 23:27 utc | 23

he’s not duncan black. he’s been outed before by cole and he’s not black . maybe when he got a link from cole he just didn’t want all the new traffic that might be dropping by directed to the thread. ok, i’m really shutting up!

Billmon does an excellent job of summarizing my argument that the Sunni Arab guerrillas (many of them rooted in the old Baath security forces) are attempting to provoke a civil war, and that they blame Abu Musab al-Zarqawi for their attacks on the Shiites.

Posted by: annie | Nov 5 2005 23:42 utc | 25

& i am of the opinion that this quarrel between billmon & i is of no importance & perhaps it is a quarrel with ourselves
the point i made then – i make again now – what is happening outside ourselves & on the terre of the middle east is of the sole importance
as far as etiquette goes we’ve all had brawls & differences – they are in the nature of what we are attemting to do

Posted by: r’giap | Nov 5 2005 23:42 utc | 27

One more thing for now.
This experiment in central governmental restriction of the people is over. It has failed. It doesn’t fit this time or the society. Now comes the important part.
He who controls the purse controls the person.
Many, many people are enraged at the cutting of social programs and the lack of caring for the people. The slack will be taken up by states and communities. My state(a Republican one) just voted for tax increases to get us out of our financial bind. This is going to be the trend. And the huge upside to this is the increased control we will have on the local level.
God Bless the Child Who’s Got His Own.
We’ll cut this government and let it loose, then rebuild. There is an opportunity. People will gradually realize that the health of the whole community will make life better for each individual. It will take a long time, but we can start now.
Like someone said to me last night, “What good does your $25,000 automobile do you if it gets wrecked in the potholes the city can’t fix?”

Posted by: jm | Nov 5 2005 23:47 utc | 29

‘Much ado about nothing’, ‘Making a mountain out of a mole hill’, etc.
Where’s a maternal figure to demand “Alright boys, shake hands and make up, then. There, there, we’re all friends again now, aren’t we ?”.
If this sort of rubbish keeps up B will get a ‘Cease and desist’ legalize letter re About this site – ‘The design of this site has been directly stolen or re-engineered from the Whiskey Bar site.’
Sorry, couldn’t resist, feeling a tad flippantly mischievous 😉

Posted by: Outraged | Nov 5 2005 23:58 utc | 31

@jm, how did the very repug areas of yr. state vote on it? How big a margin did it win by? do you guys have those damn touchscreen voting systems?
Ca. has a big election coming up Tues. It’s a bunch of Propositions to Make Ca. Repug Again. Turns out Gropenfuhrer Kennedy was trojan horse for radical right after all. It’s scary ‘cuz first thing he did when coming to office was see to it that the xDem. Sec. of State, who stood up to Diebold, got tossed out. This thing is sooo veryyy riggable. (I won’t go into the various provisions, unless they win.) I’m impressed that something valuable was actually able to prevail.
(OT – this should have been on OT, but since jm posted here, and B- was pissed he posted this thread, I didn’t know what to do.)

Posted by: jj | Nov 6 2005 0:03 utc | 33

b
let it go
the site best concentrates on the world, the world it is living in
i am reminded here of the parable i think i wrote but it is so long ago i can’t remember it
it concerned two buddhist monks walking through the mountains
at a rivers edge they are confronted by a nearly naked woman
she asks the young monk if he will take her across the river
he says no emphatically
she then asks the older monk – who agrees & carries her across the river
he deposit her on the other side & the promenade of the two monks continues
after several hours of walking – the young monk shouts at the older monk “why did you carry her, why did you carry her across the river – she was not decent ”
the oder monk replied “look, i just carried her from one side of the river to the other – you on the other hand are still carrying her”
let it go

Posted by: r’giap | Nov 6 2005 0:10 utc | 35

It can all be done. We have to shed the shackles and stop believing in victimization. Then use this energy to consolidate and shape our environments. Anyone can do it, if he really desires this.
In this case it was not an ideological battle, the way it was fought. It was purely practical.

Posted by: jm | Nov 6 2005 0:29 utc | 37

@annie
thanks for the roommate story. it validates something i have been experiencing personally.

Posted by: gylangirl | Nov 6 2005 0:33 utc | 39

Bound to happen eventually.
Billmon has always had a love/hate relationship with his readership. and it was only a matter of time before his combativeness manifested itself here the way it did peridiocally at Whiskey Bar.
Think about it. Bernhard (and formerly Jerome’s) excellent posts notwithstanding, MofA is itself a direct product of Billmon shutting down his comments. So why should things change simply because the bar is under new management?
I went back and found the post I had written for the last comments thread at Whiskey Bar (although I wasn’t able to post it before the thread shut down). It’s long, but if you’ll indulge me I think it may help shed some light as well as jog some memories:
________

‘When I started drinking at this watering hole, you could pass a bowl of peanuts down the bar and it would fall off the end. It was a nice little joint where you could shoot the breeze with a bartender who clearly enjoyed the art of political mixology, and was willing to share with us lucky few the gifts of his considerable talent.
‘But as well as the drinks went down, what made Whiskey Bar truly special was the company – a community of intelligent, thoughtful folks contributing their own valuable ideas to the discussion. Independent thinkers mostly, who were not afraid to challenge assumptions, yet respectful of others who did the same.
‘Inspired by the bartender’s eloquent themes, the discussion threads could often soar like music: each poster improvising on a variation to produce an interweaving harmony of enlightening thought. We all wanted to play our best, not just because a clunker would reflect poorly on the player, but because none of us wanted to mess up the larger song.
‘Speaking for myself, I will always be grateful that in the process of this wonderful exercise in group composition, and with Billmon as the chief composer and conductor, my own writing improved tremendously. And as a few other old-time strummers have noted above, we would like to believe the quality of the discussion improved Billmon’s writing as well.
‘Nothing is ever idyllic, of course, and Billmon was always more comfortable with his role as composer than conductor. Like many band leaders, he could be stern and arbitrary – especially when challenged. Banning trolls kept the music humming, but others were sometimes banned simply for playing a contrary tune Billmon didn’t like. And even when he didn’t ban players outright, Billmon was not above unfair and even disrespectful ridicule that only diminished his own stature as a melody maker.
‘Still, Billmon provided the example, inspiration, and structure that sent many discussions to lofty rhetorical heights never before (and perhaps never again) achieved in this new medium. For those who of us were fortunate enough to have been able to participate during that special time, we understand the significance of this – Billmon’s great accomplishment as a blogger – better than most.
‘Somewhere along the line, however, things began to change. As more folks discovered the bar, adulation became a substitute for discussion. The metronomic ‘Brilliant post Billmon’, while certainly true for some of his better posts, was considered by many to be adequate participation, in and of itself, for almost any thread.
‘Yet without more substantiation as to WHY a specific post was ‘brilliant’, the parrotting added nothing to the larger picture, and presaged the deterioration of the discussions that has finally led to this, last call. As the threads gradually watered themselves down with more and more sycophancy and less and less thoughtful interaction, the high quality of writing sufferered proportionally.
‘Also, as Billmon became more widely read, some attempted to glom onto his fame to broadcast their own agenda to a far wider audience than they would otherwise attracted had they started their own blog. Off topic posts became more and more prevalent, and multiple entries that failed to follow any single line of reasoning were common. When these attention seekers inevitably ran out of things of their own to say, they would simply post long articles by someone else that they wrongly believed substituted for dialogue.
‘Soap boxes replaced bar stools.
‘So now we have come to this, Billmon’s last thread. Reading through the comments, I am struck by the change from what I once knew. The discussion thread was always an integral part of the Whiskey Bar experience once upon a time. To those who dismiss it out of hand today, I say you are simply proving by your contempt that you have no idea what you missed. You don’t want a bar, you want a vending machine. But I hope that one day you understand that the magic of blogging lies as much in the interaction as in the delivery – in the discussion as in the post.
‘I wish you all the best happiness Billmon. Less was indeed more, and it just couldn’t last. I trust with fewer distractions caused by your new found fame you will be able to return to your writing with renewed purpose and energy. In all events I fervently hope you find your life as a commentless blogger as rewarding as I have as a commenting barfly.
‘To you and everyone else I have the pleasure to know here:
‘Cheers! (clink)’

In many ways, the discussions at MofA remind me of how it used to be in the early days at the old Whiskey Bar. Don’t get around as often here as I did there (my own blog keeps me busy now as well), but I do appreciate coming into the new joint from time to time. The address may be different, but the patrons and the moody bartender haven’t really changed all that much.
And that’s kinda the way I like it….

Posted by: Night Owl | Nov 6 2005 0:54 utc | 41

There were some long, dark months of waiting for any news at all about St. Fitz and whether or not Fitzmas was ever going to come. I can recall googling (actually, I http://www.dogpile.com), “Plame, Fitzgerald” many times and getting only the same, few, spare results. In time, maybe it was last summer, I first read one of Billmon’s “Plame Game” entries. And it’s only been in the recent lead up to the Libby indictment that I returned to the Whiskey Bar and continue to hang around still.
Curious tonight, I googled, “Billmon,” and learned some to the history of this place.
Billmon
Bloggers Suffer Burnout

Posted by: manonfyre | Nov 6 2005 1:11 utc | 43

No Need For Last Rites
Whatever is up with the comments link being pulled, my hat is off to the man. And my “dirty glass” raised. Cheers, Billmon.

Posted by: manonfyre | Nov 6 2005 1:24 utc | 45

monolycus
yes, perhaps i am more like the young monk than i would like to imagine

Posted by: r’giap | Nov 6 2005 1:29 utc | 47

r’giap – you are anything but a troll. Keep rolling please.

Posted by: b | Nov 6 2005 1:37 utc | 49

bianco
this whole question of america as victim is profoundly upsetting to me – in any form
i understand white skin privelege – as placing the concerns of your culture above all others
& there are hints of that even in the most considered writing from america
i know many people here do not like chomky but he is one of the americans most immune from that – he like edward said – wrote as if they came from the body of the other
look the personal insult i could give or take as i sd
the point i was making was not however negotiable for mm u s imperialism is guilty of an enormous crime & not insignificantly a part of that crime is the very real attempt to destroy the culture of iraq – i have poet friend form iraq who are writing on this very question. i am not alone in that thought – many people in the culture industry in the west are extremely conscient of what is happening in iraq
i can remember many years ago wanting to tear out the throat of michael cimino’s ‘the deerhunter’ because it was the beginning of the process of america as victim, the complete absence of throught for the people of indo china & of hateful self indulgence
in that post – i sd what i sd – america went to war against a sovereign nation. it did so illegally. it failed. now the world is in a mess. it seems completely bankrupt to me to blame on this or that section of the people of iraq – tho it is they who will have to pay the bill – i would like a little more regard for their situation & not of those who are sitting ‘objectively’ outside it

Posted by: r’giap | Nov 6 2005 1:49 utc | 51

I stayed out of it, but yes, bianco, I agree with you.
I get peeved and make harsh remarks sometimes too. I don’t suppose a grant from the Nat’l Endowment for the Arts back when qualifies me as the moody and artistic type, tho, because I don’t use this forum for those things…but yes, I am moody and ppl say things that I think are rude and now, at least, I just ignore them.
I learned that it was best for me to ignore blog issues that made me mad.
Billmon and r’giap do not agree, politically. Billmon’s take on things in that arena has been criticised here often lately…which is fine, but it’s a little ironic for me to hear people waiting for the bureaucracy to fall away and wait for the great uprising of the nascar proletariat, or laud the muslim fundamentalists as heros of resistance when they would be happy to spit on my rights because I’m female.
If anyone around here posts about the world in a way that does not totally condemn the United States, their “seriousness” is questioned, because, of course, theory is more valuable than experience…and only the experience of the bad things the U.S has done matter…which I understand, really, because it has used its power to bring down those it perceived as state enemies. That goes for every prez since before Kennedy. And it has been so powerful since WW2.
But everyone everywhere else is somehow allowed their imperfections and their history of abuse, or their current acts of abuse because it’s not the U.S. I suppose there is some logic there, but even so I disagree. If Pomerania were the great power right now, it would be horrific too, in its exercise of power.
Happily for everyone, I’m mostly too busy to post, except for a few days like lately, but when the bar starts to brawl, I’m ready to leave anyway.
Who here has a right to say what the Whiskey Bar is supposed to be or do? If you want that right, start your own blog and call it The Whisky Bar. That’s what Bernhard and Jerome and others have done.
Time to move to Denver. Who ever got into a bar brawl when they were smoking reefer?

Posted by: fauxreal | Nov 6 2005 2:20 utc | 53

i know i am too elliptic but i hope it is clear – michael cimino’s fim for me constituted pornography in the snese that it priveleged one culture over another, one narrative over another & was a critical establishing point for the feel sorry because we lost the war contemplation in america in the eighties
blaming this war on the iraquis is a similar pornography – it replaces reason with a kind of distancing that is neither brechtian nor healthy – it is a part of the bargain in isolating a perosn, a people , a culture
& it is not incidental
you ridiculise, you demonise & then you try to kill. what are they doing with chavez – this same process that was attempted with castro, with quadaffi, with mugabe, sukarno etc etc etc
we can have principled differences with these people without particiatin in either their ridiculisation or their demonisation
brecht taught us that
on the weekends i have acces to tv which i do not have nor want – but when i watch cnnbbc side by side what a terrrible tale they tell & it is the same
at the moment -focus on france, secondary story (divorcing any of the pratical realities)of bush’s latin america fiasco, & the attacks on the syrian border with exactl the same language – house blown up because it wasthought to be used by ‘insurgent’, the are ‘ well known to be hiding mmbers of alqaeda’, a refuge for foreign jihadists etc etc etc like i’ve heard castro killed babies, lie quaddaffi is a nutcase that mugabe does whatever they accuse him of doing – american foreign policy & the fallout of imperialism created these forces – they do not exist as a cartoon but as a living reality. i am tired of seeing it edited to manageable ‘objectivities because in the end they are neither manageable or objective

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 6 2005 2:29 utc | 55

The mark of a great sensei is that s(he) teaches you to ultimately disagree with them, then leave the dojo/ashram, whatever, to seek truth in your own experiences, instead of chanting old mantras.
We all know what needs to be done from here on, and have less than a year to execute an overthrow,
otherwise, we’ll be having this same discussion in some outland gulag, in the not-too-distant future.
And this time, there will be no ‘escape’.
Bye Bill! Got along without ya’ before I met ya’, gonna get along without you now. Cheers!

Posted by: tante aime | Nov 6 2005 2:51 utc | 57

one of the more beautiful things that socialism, communism was able to create even within the kind of inanities that were being played out – was internationalism
that internationalism remains exemplary
if there’s one moment in recent history that gives truth to that – it is that of the spanish civil war & the international brigades of which americans played a very considerable role with their lincoln brigade – the best of people fighting for the best of ideas & doing that for the other – or that outside themselves
there have been continuations of that the venceremos brigades that went to cuba to help cut sugar, the many volunteers who went to help out in nicaragua & the rest of central & latin america
ther german & duth left for example have always underlined their international solidarity. i remember in holland for example during the miners strike in britain – that the dutch left devotedly & at great cost sought actively to assist workers of another country in very substantial ways
people continue this path & it is an honourable one

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 6 2005 2:56 utc | 59

To clarify, r’giap, my comment wasn’t in any way meant to apply to all who are committed to solidarity movements. You are right, of course, that there’s a noble heritage there. But, at least in the U.S., some who adopt the rhetoric of solidarity do so in ways that substitute self-centered cant for analysis.

Posted by: GreenSooner | Nov 6 2005 3:14 utc | 61

>rgiap:
“i know i am too elliptic but i hope it is clear”
sorry. you are still too elliptic and it is not clear. what do you think billmon meant when he chose the two fiercely precise words “stalinist” and “fruitcake”. only the examined life is worth living. precision is a form of generosity. koans aren’t.
>greensooner:
“I have also seen the kind of thing fauxreal describes above around here, that one has to totally condemn the U.S. to show one’s seriousness.”
by “the US” do we mean bush voters? or do all we whiteboys who failed to make a statement by setting fire to staten island suffer nonexemption from the Wrath OF MOA(n)?
>tante aime
“Bye Bill! Got along without ya’ before I met ya’, gonna get along without you now. Cheers! ”
wow. so ugly.
>greensooner again:
“But there are certain ways of condemning the U.S. that are even more self-centered (in their peculiar way) than anything Billmon is being accused of here.
i see Billmon as walter matthau in the Bad New Bears. at least for one good long excruiating headshaking closeup.

Posted by: bianco | Nov 6 2005 3:17 utc | 63

Why can’t we all just get along?

Posted by: Rodney King | Nov 6 2005 3:28 utc | 65

for christs sake bianco i am not a monolith. nor is this a confessional. it is as it is for other a very important part of my life because it ( by its difference/s mostly) MOA constitutes a community of resistance. we all consecrate an important & not insignificant amount of our time here but we do live lives
i was borne into a family of communists, i was from my youth engages as a communist, i have fought in this world(s) as a communist – & of this it is so pulic & also so clealry vulnerable that i have never, ever attempted to hide that most elemental fact
i have experienced every epithet under the sun – so stalinist – i take no more seriouslly than any other form of insult – is my anti imperialism – the cause for this epithet, is it because i contextualise what is happening in iraq to th other crimes of u s imperialism
people have been correct here to suggest that sometimes i do not go into that detail over either french portugese or british imperialism – & that is a criticism i accept & have tried to articulate
what you experience as rigidity (stalinism) i experience as communicating from a historical perspective outside the i
fruitcake – i don’t know – you tell me the precision – is it simply that being a communist in 2005 in a period of late capitalism is sufficient to be called a fruitcake – frankly i don’t care
if i experience a failing on my part here is that i have (because of mmy ineptitude with internet) been unable to offer the links that are the real resource at moa – the commentary is a beautiful bonus – but it is the facts that i both want & need
is that sufficiently precise

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 6 2005 3:38 utc | 67

…….and then this boy told a story and one of the other boys was sayin’ that it was all baloney and the first boy he done called the second one some names, see, and then some of the other kids in the playground weighed in an’ some was hollerin’ that the second kid ain’t got no right to be bitchin’ ’bout the first boy’s story while others was yellin’ that the first kid shouldn’ta been callin’ names and then before you knowed it there was kids howlin’ back an’ forth an’ then the second kid he called the first kid some other kinda name and more kids jumped in over that an’ they was all riled up an’ yellin’ “He said,” “No he said,” an’ “He shouldn’ta said,” “No HE shouldn’ta said,” and back an’ forth with all the hollerin’ an’ screamin’ an’ yellin’ and “There, there, he shouldn’ta said that to you,” an’ “Heck sure he should, you didn’t have no right to say that there to him in the first place,” an’ “Oh yes he did!” an’ “Oh no he didn’t!” “Did!” “Didn’t!” an’ this went on fer a coupla days an’ then the first kid said he weren’t gonna share his stories no more an’ some were weepin’ and some were sayin’ “So what?” an’ then there was a whole load of “But I never really said,” an’ “Well, what I actually meant was…”, an’ more of the “You shouldn’ta said,” an’ “Hell, people have got a perfect right to say,” an’ “Oh no they haven’t! an’ “Oh yes they have!” an’ “Now look what you gone an’ done!” an’ “What did I do?” an’ “Now he ain’t gonna gather the kids around an’ tell ’em stories no more on account of you an’ you an’ you an’ him an’ her!” an’ “I didn’t do nothin’ wrong!” an’ “Did so!” “Didn’t!” “Did!” “Did not!” “Did!” an’ Who needs his dumb stories anyhows?” an’ “They ain’t dumb!” an’ “Are so!” an’ “Ain’t!” “Are!” “Ain’t!” “Are!” an’ mebbe the first kid was kinda hopin’ they’d beg him fer ter come back an’ tell his stories again like back in the day but ifn he was hopin’ fer that he was wastin’ his time ’cause they went right back at it with all their “He said,” “Well, he shouldn’ta said,” stuff all over again an’ to be truthful with ya if that there’s book learnin’ you can shove it.
I’m going fishin’

Posted by: Huckleberry Finn | Nov 6 2005 3:55 utc | 69

See these eyes so green
I can stare for a thousand years
Colder than the moon
It’s been so long
And I’ve been putting out fire
With gasoline
Feel my blood enraged
It’s just the fear of losing you
Don’t you know my name
Well, you been so long
See these eyes so red
Red like jungle burning bright
Those who feel me near
Pull the blinds and change their minds
It’s been so long
Still this pulsing night
A plague I call a heartbeat
Just be still with me
Ya wouldn’t believe what I’ve been thru
You’ve been so long
Well it’s been so long
And I’ve been putting out fire
with gasoline
putting out fire
with gasoline
See these tears so blue
An ageless heart
that can never mend
These tears can never dry
A judgement made
can never bend
See these eyes so green
I can stare for a thousand years
Just be still with me
You wouldn’t believe what I’ve been thru
You’ve been so long
Well, it’s been so long
And I’ve been putting out fire
with gasoline
putting out fire with gasoline

Posted by: Zowie | Nov 6 2005 4:05 utc | 71

Fauxreal….excellent post. Bravo. I completely agree. It’s as if condemning the country mindlessly has become fashionable. And as if it’s in any way a solution to the problems we are facing. A sensible analysis and a good look at what is wrong AND right about this country is what I’m interested in. The criticism is necessary, but the good characteristics are what we have to bank on and they have to be acknowledged too.
And Debs…
fauxreal I am hopping in again because I too saw slothrop’s post and I don’t suppose you’ll see this but it doesn’t make me want to leave or even vomit as much as it makes me want to say that until we all shake off this need for a messiah we are just chasing our tails.
I think you have nailed THE PROBLEM IN ITS TOTALITY. This clustering around perceived powerful figures has always been our downfall. People give up the sense of their own significance in worshipping at the feet of other humans. They exaggerate the so-called genius or talent until the point that they turn on their icons and violently bring them down. All the while missing their own selves.
I got involved for this reason. I wanted to see the day when George Bush could be ignored and not plastered all over the world in everybody’s mind day in and day out. When he could be seen as just another man.
The collective holds the power, not the individual. The individual only has power over himself. In any other relationship a contract is agreed upon between and among the participants in the ensuing events. And power is always divided whether you see it or not. Assuming the other person holds the power is a cop-out. So the person can play the victim role and not bear the burden of responsibilty. This enrages me.
This godforsaken hoisting of people to star positions will always be disappointing. And it speaks of our spiritual longing and inner emptiness.
Suddenly, the star writer of the group has abdicated the throne. It’s a great opportunity. I am so impressed with the skill of this group, that the beliefs and persuasions are almost secondary.
It’s an age old practice and we are still stuck in the need for hiearchies, but with the creation of leaders comes resentment and their ultimate downfall. Until we learn to lead ourselves and do right things out of desire, not outside dictates, we will continue this up and down cycle.
I enjoy some of the output of leaders, but I also celebrate their exit when the time comes.

Posted by: jm | Nov 6 2005 4:23 utc | 73

warning: rant on
r’giap,
yes you are born and raised communist. it is clear that you have some interesting perspectives that benefit us born and raised capitalists. and we navel-gazing americans thank you for sharing your perspective about our navels. but there is one thing about us that i wish you could benefit from: we have learned how to criticize our own system our capitalism and our government, something you cannot seem to do with your communism. you excuse away the same elitist top dog bottom dog behaviours of your heroes. but it is exactly the same under communism: some people are more equal than others, some imperialism disguises itself as liberation of the masses, some atrocities are committed by a dictatorship claiming morals and authority they don’t have.
a mirror system of exploitation.
the denial of the obvious is the fruitcake part. your one-sided diatribes really are out of sinc with those of us who are more honest than you are in criticizing our own. and that goes for the other anti-american stalin/castro-excusing fruitcakes too.
our american democracy is beautiful, or it had been, when it was growing and changing and becoming more inclusive. our constitution’s separation and balance of powers and our bill of rights and our founders concepts of separation of church and state…all these american inventions were brilliant defenses against the monarchist and religious abuses that plagued our european ancestors.
yes we still have a lot of sins to address. we have been rising above our past sins of outright slavery [yet the products we use are produced by foreign/communist slave labor] and we have been expanding rights to more and more people, not fast enough for my taste. and we ought to be continuing that path, we should be racing along it faster than ever before.
instead we are running backwards. my eight year old daughter will not have better than me. it will be worse for her. i despair at the direction in which my country is heading. i look around for another country, where can i bring her? where is there separation of church and state? where is there balance of powers? where are they running along the path in the right direction: where is there no corporate abuse? where is there no dictatorship? where is there no racism or classism or sexism? no injustice, no war? Asia? Europe? South America? Afica? [Cuba? HAH!]
and r’giap i am so sorry that you are being bombed to death every day by american white monsters. i do not approve of your torment [at the hands of MY oppressors] any more than you do. but you really ought to get some perspective: if billmon has a moment of nightblindness, it is nothing compared to your permanent blindspot.
/rant off

Posted by: gylangirl | Nov 6 2005 7:17 utc | 75

b, & averyone else
i always check wb before coming here, so i already knew that the link had been removed even before this thread was started
and i too thought that bill might be peeved – but i also noticed that the earthquake donation link was gone, and thus concluded that it was just an html coding issue which would get fixed as soon as someone (b, perhaps) emailed billmon
and then i encountered this thread – what a bunch of whiney crybabies

Posted by: andrew in caledon | Nov 6 2005 7:48 utc | 77

For those that persist in launching personal attacks, perhaps its time to look in the mirror or reflect/medidate on some Old Testament or pop culture wisdom:

‘He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone’
From the Bible. John 8:7. So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them …
‘Play the ball not the man’
We can be bold enough to make a stand and do battle for our views and beliefs. But we must strive to be mature enough not to resort to unnecessary personal attacks upon people with opposing views.
The “ball” is our personal view and the “man” is someone with the opposing view.

Posted by: Outraged | Nov 6 2005 8:25 utc | 79

@Debs is Dead
Did you not notice ? I specifically didn’t quote the soccer attribution.
Damned right it came from Rugby ! LOL 🙂
Here’s the link to ‘Phrases, sayings and idioms’ at – The Phrase Finder

Posted by: Outraged | Nov 6 2005 9:02 utc | 81

Freqently, they quarrel simply to recharge the air between them, to sharpen the aliveness.
Well put, Mr $cam.
May I add that we quarrel to separate and plug into our own selves for a moment.

Posted by: jm | Nov 6 2005 10:02 utc | 83

Billmon’s a genius and if I had to limit myself to just 3 blogs, his would be one of them.
But interacting with commenters isn’t his strong suit, or at least that’s my impression. It’s disappointing–I staked out what I thought was a sensible midpoint between Juan Cole’s position and RGiap and would have liked to have seen what Billmon had to say–more generally I’m very interested in the question of what we in the US can possibly know about what’s going on in Iraq and would like Billmon’s opinion on that as well, but Billmon just doesn’t do comment sections.
I can’t really blame him. One reason I don’t blog is that I wouldn’t want to deal with the comments. The other bigger reason is that I’d very quickly run out of new things to say, but that’s beside the point.

Posted by: Donald Johnson | Nov 6 2005 15:21 utc | 85

I find myself, strangely, not giving a damn about what Billmon does or doesn’t do, and I don’t mean this in a bad way. It’s his life, it’s his problem. A non-story if there ever was one.

Posted by: Lupin | Nov 6 2005 16:53 utc | 87

i’m w/anna missed!

Posted by: annie | Nov 6 2005 18:53 utc | 89

Billmon is a great writer
Oh, please…get real.

Posted by: jj | Nov 6 2005 20:16 utc | 91

jj, You are the same guy that doesn’t or didn’t know “elite theory” or other political philosphies when trying to post. Elites run this country, we don’t. Thats reality, I deal with it every day in my job.
I’ve been reading billmon for a while now and I read many different blogs, papers and listen to news programs driving my family nuts over my incessant need for info. I have a very good background in economics, economic development (which is my business and political theory, though I do try to keep my post here very short because after being at work and dealing with politics all days, I do not have the ambition to think long postings (that may be to your benefit). But I have never read a writer that can cover the multitude of subjects, takes the time to research and do it with the humor that billmon can. Thats my opinion, I am entitled to it, and anyone who don’t like it can kiss my ass.
Chill out.

Posted by: jdp | Nov 6 2005 20:32 utc | 93

I find that the best writers, artists, etc. are spotty at best. They hit it sometimes and wander off the target often. Most overstate. And it’s too subjective to say who is undeniably great.
When the good ones hit the mark, though, it can be worth wading through the less than stellar moments. When writers strike a chord in a person and the response is genuine, there is no argument. And the debate over who is great can never be won.
We love heartily to share our experiences and that’s what we’re doing here. I have my favorites among the posters here, but I doubt that all would agree.
My favorite writers(novels, short stories), usually produce a few masterpieces and the rest is a prelude and epilogue.
One of the best movies I ever saw is Woman in the Dunes, and the Japanese director of that piece didn’t make another film for twenty years. He became a potter, among other things. That always impressed me. As if he knew he couldn’t reach that height again for a long time.
His restraint in not overdoing it. Very unusual.

Posted by: jm | Nov 6 2005 22:56 utc | 95

I think Billmon can handle things himself. And one person stated it correctly when he said that billmon doesn’t like the commentary. He mentioned this just recently and it was a portent. This was his golden opportunity to get off the hook.
There is something else going on here which is why the conversation is transmogrifying so much and continuing. There is a message and lesson trying to get through.
We’ve been under so much pressure in the last years around the issue of authority and the cultural climate has been ugly and degrading.
I think now we are searching for some self esteem and that can be difficult. Sometimes we slip and criticise unfairly or get undignified, among other things. This is all part of the process.
Understanding is always a good antidote and a controlling of the shame or embarrassment if any of us say things beneath our usual level of refinement. If we backslide into immature behavior, so be it. We will recover.
It can be excruciating to try and live up to other’s standards.
Moon of Alabama has an unusually high level of comment, but no one’s perfect. And one low moment turns into a new height.

Posted by: jm | Nov 6 2005 23:27 utc | 97

One more thing.
Is there a set of rules in this forum? What exactly are the dictums?
If they exist, should they be tightened? Who is the architect of behavioral rules, or are we just going on precedent?
From my experience, and since I don’t like restriction, I find that behavior has to be expressed, running the whole gamute, so people can come to a democratic consensus, as to what they will tolerate. And this will happen naturally if people are patient and withhold judgement for a second.
And leadership? Anyone game to take over the job?

Posted by: jm | Nov 6 2005 23:46 utc | 99