Three old posts that put it all in, ‘perspective’.
We led the prosecution of the Nazi leadership at the Nuremberg trials based, in part, on these degrees (here, here) … and now 50 years later our government commits the very same acts (here) … with utter impunity …

Posted by: Outraged | Nov 2 2005 21:19 utc | 4

Precedent, precedents … it could never happen domestically , could it ? In the ‘War on Terra’, anything is possible …

The American Gulag
by Thomas J. DiLorenzo
Whenever a neocon defends governmental acts of tyranny, despotism, and brutality (a defining characteristic of a neocon) it’s a sure bet that he will eventually “justify” such acts by invoking the image of the “sainted” Abraham Lincoln. If “Father Abraham” did it, the argument goes, then it must not only be accepted but celebrated…

Posted by: Outraged | Nov 2 2005 21:58 utc | 6

It may be said, they came in vain.
Let it not BE that they came in vain.
We finished what we could –
we left the rest to you.
Remember, this is work entrusted.
Remember, beloved, we shall meet again.
[quoted in Wisdom of the Idiots by I. Shah}

Posted by: mistah charley | Nov 2 2005 22:45 utc | 8

There is a recurring archetype in popular fiction. The variations change, but the main points are that there is a hero who lives under a repressive, shadowy government and this hero seeks and obtains some kind of irrefutable proof of that government’s corruption. The hero faces agents of this government who try to prevent the “truth” from getting out, but in the end the hero is able to broadcast or publish this “truth” and the evil bureaucracy who had fought to keep it secret immediately shrinks away like the Wicked Witch of the West after Dorothy spills some water on her. Public opinion, according to this archetype, can move mountains and human beings’ desire for justice will win in the end.
This story entertains us in many of its variations, but is completely divorced from the reality of the situation. Not only is dissenting public opinion completely ignored (see the ten million who protested against the US invasion of Iraq), and is apathetic in the face of proof-of-treachery (see the lukewarm response the Downing Street Minutes recieved), but most importantly, the powers-that-be are like the drunken bank-robber who loves to brag to his buddies about what they have gotten away with (actually, in Karl Rove’s case, this is literally true. He has been known by insiders to get lost in reminiscences of various smear tactics he has employed against his political foes.)
From the final paragraph in Bernhard’s link to the Dachau story:
“The existence of these early concentration camps and the rumours surrounding them instilled a nagging sense of fear among all Germans and effectively suppressed any political opposition to Hitler and the Nazi regime.”
Guantanamo Bay, Abu Ghraib, Jose Padilla, ghost detainees, the open secret about US-sponsored torture, et cetera, ad nauseum do not, let me repeat not, represent damage to the political capital of the neocon administration. Those who oppose these things are also cowed by them and those who do not oppose these things revel in the fact that we are doing them. Stories like these hurt the administration not one tiny iota and are carried out and leaked to us with malicious forethought. It simultaneously quells domestic dissent and shores the domestic hawk base. Win/Win if you are a sociopath.
We are shocked by this gross inhumanity because we are supposed to be shocked by it. It has never been explained how the lion’s share of the provisions in the detestable USAPATRIOT Act I&II are supposed to aid law enforcement because that was never their purpose. Are the majority of the names that appear on the Top Secret No-Fly lists actually suspected terrorists? Since there exists no way for us to view these lists, we can only speculate. But by the same token, since these lists are not subject to independent oversight we can safely conclude that those who find their way on to them (and have no method to contest their inclusions) are there for either their political affiliations, dissenting views or (most probably) just randomly selected to send a message to would-be dissenters. The Third Reich analogy is apt, but in this case, I lean more towards Solzhenitzyn’s graphic description of the purges under Stalin. Every life is NOT sacred to the American government (internalise that first and foremost), but every story mysteriously leaked with its dark and heavy-handed implications that there is so much more that is known but not spoken, we become more frightened.
The modus operandi of the tyrant is fear on every level. On the surface, it is the fear of “terrorists”. Below the surface, it is the fear of being designated a “terrorist”. These fears are not groundless, either. Everybody knows about the Gulag Archipelago… we do not need another Solzhentitzyn to describe the horrors of water boarding or being beaten to death, paralyzed or having your kneecaps drilled into, being degraded or humiliated… but even the Solzhenitzyns of the world contribute to the tyrant’s capital of fear and control by filling in for us some of the details of what we might reasonably expect by doing nothing more than being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Every time we board an airplane we have to worry… is this the time the “terrorists” will get us? And those “terrorists” could as likely be a theological radical as a civil servant who needs to fill their quota of “examples” that they are doing something. In a sick sort of way, we almost prefer the former… at least if it is a bomb-weilding nobody who gets us first, it will be over quickly and we can expect our families and friends to learn of our fates. But nobody is kidding us about our chances if the Ministry of Love decides to pick one of us out of a crowd.
All we can do is try to keep a low-profile and keep silent about our feelings that all of this is desperately, desperately wrong. And deep in our hearts we know, just as the Russian peasants knew that they were being rounded up and collectively purged for no reason apart from the message that it sends, that remaining silent is no guarantee that we won’t be next.

Posted by: Monolycus | Nov 2 2005 23:45 utc | 10

Sorry Monolycus I can’t agree with your conclusions.
I’m not rejecting your idea because it is defeatist and unnecessarily black which it is, but because I firmly believe that your assumption that resistance is useless is only correct if we believe it to be correct.
In final analysis all people on this planet are just that, people, they all have the same types of strengths and weaknesses as each other. In your own words “he powers-that-be are like the drunken bank-robber who loves to brag to his buddies about what they have gotten away with (actually, in Karl Rove’s case, this is literally true. He has been known by insiders to get lost in reminiscences of various smear tactics he has employed against his political foes.)”
As sportsmen are fond of saying about their opponents “When he gets up in the morning he pulls his trousers on one leg after the other, same as everyone else”.
These are successful sportsmen who fully understand that to suggest what you have that is that the neocons have some sort of unbeatable strategy which is pointless to challenge is merely making your worst fears reality.
When someone believes that “Those who oppose these things are also cowed by them and those who do not oppose these things revel in the fact that we are doing them.” they may as well give up and go home they have handed all of their power over to the opposition and conceded defeat.
There is a simple way to demonstrate that what you assert is incorrect. If you are right when fascists get control that’s it. They are unbeatable so meaningful participation in community decision making is over.
Hitler! What happened to him? he should still be in power shouldn’t he? That Joe Stalin too his mob must still control the bits of the world they have wrenched off the other humans. Papa Doc of Haiti, Somoza of Nicaragua, Marcos in the Philippines, the Shah of Iran all ruled using the techniques you allege are so over arching and total that resistance is futile so they or their heirs should still be there. But they’re not and mostly they died lonely and bereft. Mostly they were overthrown by the people they believed they controlled so well.
There’s a great Counterpunch article by John Walsh that examines the effect Leo Strauss’s philosophy has had on the neo-cons. He examines their rationale for the brazen lying and deceit BushCo has become famous for:

“All governments lie as I. F. Stone famously observed, but some governments lie more than others. And the neocon Bush regime serves up whoppers as standard fare every day. Why this propensity to lie? There are many reasons, but it is not widely appreciated that the neocons believe in lying on principle. It is the “noble” thing for the elite to do, for the “vulgar” masses, the “herd” will become ungovernable without such lies. This is the idea of the “noble lie” practiced with such success and boldness by Scooter Libby and his co-conspirators and concocted by the political “philosopher” Leo Strauss whose teachings lie at the core of the neoconservative outlook and agenda, so much so that they are sometimes called “Leocons.””

Now I don’t really think cliches can tell us anything apart from the lack of imagination being displayed by the person using the cliche but it isn’t possible to fool all of the people all the time and whilst it is possible to cow some of the people all of the time it isn’t possible to cow some people any of the time much less all of it.
This isn’t about nobility or courage the motivation is often both more complex and less honourable than that but have no fear the BushCo fascist regime will come undone and it will happen sooner than most people expect.
I can see why some, particularly Amerikans would believe that the concept of overthrowing tyranny is an overblown overhyped myth. The first and last time they did it, in the war of Independence they didn’t let anyone ignore their ‘nobility’. They patted themselves on the back and attempted to awe their children with tales of silversmiths riding through the dark or women stitching banners by candlelight. So when the inevitable happened which was that the machinery of revolution was transformed into the machinery of oppression, it was also inevitable that some would conclude there is no way out. Since that which rescued them last time, is now repressing them, resistance is futile.
Initially, silly blokes who are all muscle and no brain, but who also have issues with their perceived lack of status in the community, do support fascism as a way to find that status. These are the hawks of which you speak. However most are just foolish; neither mad nor bad and as the cruelty of tyranny becomes plain to them as it is inflicted on their friends and family, they do change their attitude, often quite dramatically, moving from loyal servant of the regime to fierce opponent.
You are correct when you say publicising these episodes of torture and abuse do little or nothing for resistance per se. However it is like water dripping on stone as the tyrants become more corrupt they do lose their resolve and ordinary people do hear just one too many stories of corruption and change their point of view.
But that’s when the next part comes in, one of the reasons why in my lame way I’m wont to cajole MoA habitues to suggest forms of action which could be taken. Now if people do have good ideas on this obviously in most circumstances you wouldn’t publish it on a blog but it is vital to remind each other that posting to a weblog isn’t taking action.
However action can be taken and action must be taken.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Nov 3 2005 3:49 utc | 12

@Monolycus I’m sorry if my post made things seem more hopeless.
I’m not trying to have a go at you or anyone else whose assertions I may contest from time time. It wouldn’t be a bar if there wasn’t some debate.
But I will say that the Soviet system was inevitably beaten by the forces inside. Hitler may have lost the fight with Stalin but Stalin was shown to be fallible and after the Nazi invasion Stalin was no longer the omnipotent Papa. ReaBushCo may like to propagandise about their role in the Soviet downfall but it was internal dissent which bought it undone. The Nazis also would have come undone well short of their millennia, whether or not outside forces got involved.
But anyway I still believe that considering every revelation made by the all powerful fascist state to be deliberate IS defeatist. They are just people and like everyone they make mistakes and this is my problem with most conspiracy theories.
People cock up with unremitting regularity. Most conspiracy theories have a plot like a caper movie where everything the bad guys do goes smoothly and everything the ‘white hats’ try falls on its face. I would argue that is the recurring archetype.
Yes I will concede that BushCo have let sufficient information of their brutality leak out to make those who are inclined to let such things effect them do so. However that may not be the case here which is why the administration is scrambling to prevent what occurred in Thailand from recurring.
I don’t know how much time you may know of Thailand but you’d be hard pressed to meet a more fascist bunch of Bhuddists. This means that stories of the regime swirl around sufficiently to keep the populace in awe but are never officially acknowledged, because to do so would mean that the leaders were ‘officially cruel and repressive’ something which would be intolerable to the leaders’ weird sense of ‘honour’.
So every now and then a demonstration is broken up and the ringleaders, usually student activists are taken out and shot. But if proof of the extra judicial executions make it to the media then the leadership is forced to resign. This happened following a demonstration in the hotel district in Bangkok a few years ago. There were just too many cameras around so the Prime Minister was forced to resign.
So when the US acknowledged that they were detaining and torturing people in Thailand the Thai government closed down the ‘facility’ immediately.
This will also happen in Poland or whatever country it is in a few days when the name of the former eastern bloc state gets out.
This isn’t something that BushCo wants to happen which is why they haven’t been very specific in the past.
Things are very different in the tent looking out than outside looking in which is the great asset of blogs. Somewhere in the middle of what it feels like in there and what it looks like from out here we are likely to discover the most probable outcome.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Nov 3 2005 6:12 utc | 14

@ Mono and DID
Thanks for the interesting dialog, a sort of laical “De profundis”.

But that’s when the next part comes in, one of the reasons why in my lame way I’m wont to cajole MoA habitues to suggest forms of action which could be taken. Now if people do have good ideas on this obviously in most circumstances you wouldn’t publish it on a blog but it is vital to remind each other that posting to a weblog isn’t taking action.

I tend to agree with the implicit sentiment that one should be doing more than just “complaining”, but I also think that “raising consciousness”, sharing knowledge, suggesting interpretations, and exposing evil are meritorious and useful actions. We (or at least I) tend to retain faith in certain shibboleths about the canonical ways to effect radical political changes: mass demonstrations, manning the barricades, strikes, boycotts, electoral politics, mau-mauing the media, etc. Leftist ideology and praxis both tend to romanticize the assembly, mass meeting, and transversal solidarity on the march in the name of universal ideals. Indeed, there are moments when one is shocked that the streets of America are not filled with mass protests against the official evangelism of torture. Yet, for the very reasons so clearly brought out in your dialog, and others too, it seems that traditional ways for organizing a countervailing power, while welcome and useful, are not sufficient to the task at hand. It’s hard to disagree that America needs revolutionary change (specifically I’m thinking of the need to dismantle the national security structures almost in their entirety) while it’s impossible to “will the means” if they entail the kind of violence encapsuled in those very structures. I think we are witnessing the beginning of a circumscribed, elite sanctioned process of reining in the neocon fanatics, but even assuming “success” in this project, the result will almost certainly leave the underlying structures intact.

Assuming (optimistically) this limited success, one will be left with the enduring antinomy between institutional responsibility and individual conscience. Much as my romantic soul would like to resolve the issue once and for all via the statutory limits of constitutional rationalism, the skeptic in me suspects that, again for the reasons you have delineated, the final bulwark against institutionalized savagery will lie in depths of those restless consciences to which we now appeal.

Posted by: Hannah K. O’Luthon | Nov 3 2005 7:10 utc | 16

@Debs
I know you weren’t just having a go at me and I think it is as likely that I misread your reply as it is that you misread me. While I wouldn’t call my original post satire, I thought it was obvious by the fact that I was saying something publicly that I was not genuinely endorsing that we remain silent. But, like Uncle $cam, I am feeling tremendously overwhelmed and dark. And it is doubly discouraging to recognise that, if my thesis about the intent of the draconian laws and outrageous stories of abuse are correct, my feelings of helpless depression are exactly what I am supposed to be feeling.
I appreciate the debate and I agree with you that it wouldn’t be a bar without it. But the fear I described is very real. I am terrified every time I go to an airport that some comment I have made here or in another public forum will not be taken well by the fed who is monitoring the discussion that day. One spiteful drop of my name into a database and a brisk walk into a backroom, and my life is over. It is not unprecedented.
In the example of Thailand you raised, imagine for a moment being one of the student activists. Being taken out and shot and having that sacrifice make no difference whatsoever. I’ve said before in previous posts that I have nothing to lose… what is terrifying to me is to make no difference. I was drawn into a debate with R’Giap on that point. As noble as Die Weiße Rose were, their deaths sent a message to other dissenters and their sacrifice was not only in vain, but helped to discourage others from following in their footsteps. Of course we all want to do the right thing, we all want to act rather than to just talk, but ineffective or poorly thought-out action works towards the interests of those whom you oppose. I never thought I’d find myself quoting George Patton, of all people, but the object of war is not to die for your country.
I agree with Hannah above that “…it seems that traditional ways for organizing a countervailing power, while welcome and useful, are not sufficient to the task at hand.” I advocate resistance… but my caveat is that I advocate effective resistance that will produce genuine beneficial change to alleviate the suffering in the world. This is why I could not get on board with the “anybody but Bush” slogan during the 2004 election cycle. This is why I can’t get behind marching with pickets and getting painted with the brush of being an out-of-touch hippie or effete academic and only polarising the moderates against you. Yes, action is necessary… but action-for-action’s sake without consideration of contingincies and genuine solutions (a hallmark, incidentally, of the present administration)is worse than no action at all.

Posted by: Monolycus | Nov 3 2005 8:50 utc | 18

Monolycus…
but my caveat is that I advocate effective resistance that will produce genuine beneficial change to alleviate the suffering in the world.
Genuine beneficial change and alleviation of suffering are going on all the time along with deleterious change and creation of more suffering in the whole dualistic pattern.
Right now in this country, there are political actions that are bringing relief and even joy to people. But we don’t hear about them. If we’re smart, we participate in them. There is growth and decay always going on simultaneously. Creation and destruction. The tricky part is figuring out what part we play individually. Some throw bombs, some scream from podiums, some plant community gardens, some build schools, and some observe and comment….on and on… there are trillions of jobs.
I also think that we sense that this regime is in the process of destruction. So overt action by the people is unnecessary. It’s the next one we should be thinking about.

Posted by: jm | Nov 3 2005 9:52 utc | 20

It appears that today is dark for one and all. My despair is rather different to the residents of the USA but not unrelated.
The shit I’ve been having to ingest most of the year appears to be working. The doctors reckon I’m getting better. Truth told I am feeling better and that is a cause for joy. Now that my kids are getting all grown up I am actually for the first time in a long time thinking of things I may want to do.
My preference with this turn of events has always been to return to Australia. In the past the work I have done there although pretty inconsequential in the big scheme, has made a difference. I am pragmatic enough to recognise that you can’t go back, though I do have a couple of ideas about some things I would like to do in Northern Australia.
It probably didn’t enter anyone in the North Hemisphere’s consciousness but yesterday was Melbourne Cup Day. A horse race when all of Australia and good part of NZ stops so everyone can get drunk and bet.
It’s not a public holiday the getting drunk part always happens/ed in the workplace. Sort of a sign for everyone to put their pool cue in the rack and get ready cause Xmas isn’t far away.
Unfortunates addicted to gambling tend to get a bit lost for the next couple of weeks but Australia is Australia and when I lived there most people were tolerant of each other’s foibles. That may not be the case anymore although despite the dreadful Johnny Howard’s efforts its difficult to believe he has managed to completely destroy the Oz ethos. In fact the only good thing about what he did this week was that he felt he had to do it on Melbourne Cup Day.
That is introduce the sort of laws contained in the US Patriot Act but in a country without a Bill of Rights so any protections are non-existent.
The States objected so Howard moved the passage back from Tuesday to Monday!
Then the States jacked up and wouldn’t give their assent. It’s kinda complicated but some issues can only be resolved nationally by passing a bill at the Federal level and then having each State’s parliament ratify it.
This year is the first time that Howard has had control of both Federal Houses (Reps and Senate) so he’s getting Federal stuff done he hasn’t been able to before. The states have all got varying degrees of allegedly leftish Labor governments.
So taking a leaf outta the BushCo playbook Howard did this
“”The government has received specific intelligence from police information this week which gives cause for serious concern about a potential terrorist threat,” Howard told reporters in Canberra.”
Well that was predictable wasn’t it? But worse is that according to TV news tonight the states have gone for the bill just as they probably all agreed to months ago.
This is despite the fact that most people see through the BS.
So the US isn’t alone.
Anyway that’s what has given me the shits today. I really don’t want to get too caught up in that stuff in Oz. I am a citizen but I was hoping to work with traditional aboriginal people again and this issue will be very low on their priorities. Freedom comes a bit after food, shelter and health.
Anyway that will at least allow me to segue into the point I want to make if anyone still wants to consider all this.
Hannah and Malooga both make good arguments about action and change.
I agree that a whole bunch of old hippies or academics or whatever group that isn’t really representative of mainstream amerika, doing anything much is not going to be that fruitful.
The thing is though I seriously doubt that is going to be the case in a couple of months.
Uncle’s poem used some images of winter to express how he felt. Winter is coming.
A lot of people are profoundly effected by the seasons so they withdraw to their homes and crank up the heating.
That is going to be harder and a lot more expensive this winter.
In addition I suspect Greenspan is getting out just before the shit hits the fan.
This is a lose/lose situation in the short term really but while most people won’t get out of their own way for some Iraqi getting blown up or even one of ‘our troops’ (provided the relationship isn’t too close) it does appear that BushCo incompetence/unconcern is going to really make a mess of a lot of people’s lives.
They will need to be held back rather than encouraged if that is the case because as Monolycus pointed out intemperate action is self defeating. Nevertheless when a good slice of the population is ranting the message doesn’t even have to be particularly on target, it just needs to be out there.
My concern would be that as the dollar free falls, interest rates (the cost of money) sky rockets, the property bubble bursts, and underemployment spreads; the first move BushCo makes will be to try to force wages down (a la New Orleans reconstruction). This will pit the unemployed US citizens directly against the illegal migrants.
The neocon fools will think this an awfully good idea. But it won’t be. Sure they’ll be some awful incidents but people are still going to come back to the issue about whether they have enough. This tends to distract one from whether the other person does or doesn’t.
Seasonal Affective Disorder (SAD) the ability of winter to make things seem even worse, is likely to bring BushCo undone.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Nov 3 2005 10:23 utc | 22

@Debs is Dead
Continued recovery and good health to you. I for one highly value your particular perspectives and personable insights.
A cliche springs to mind ‘It is always darkest before the dawn’
Dawn is coming ?
However, my heart tells me one thing whilst my mind says another. My lifes experiences tell me Dawn is, at best, many years away at least, and entirely unnecessary heart rending suffering and injustice to be borne in the interim.

Posted by: Outraged | Nov 3 2005 10:41 utc | 24

continued health brother debs

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 3 2005 13:47 utc | 26

I really appreciate everyone’s good wishes and Citizen its great to see your mark back at MoA. I hope you feel able to share some of your insight with us again.
I do feel rather rueful about bringing this blog, where we mostly try and look at the ‘big picture’, to myself.
Therefore I have no desire to harp on too much about all of this except to say that one of the less pleasant effects of these chemicals is that I get about 3-5 hours of extremely light sleep a night.
I have taken to coming to MoA at the oddest of times in an attempt to get relief from passive time filling exercises. eg TV or reading.
I do forget how brash I can sound in full flight. I have always tended to bulldoze my way about the place and can miss that not everyone else shares my point of view.
So I really appreciate MoA support and will try harder to make it clear I’m playing the ball not the person.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Nov 3 2005 19:15 utc | 28

Squeak, Squeak, Squeak.
Squeak, Squeak, Squeak.
A round for the house and ‘bon sante’ to Debs is Dead.

Posted by: pb | Nov 3 2005 22:33 utc | 30

Yes, Debs,
Your sleepless nights
become my sleepless nights,
reading your pearls of wisdom.
Best wishes, and another round…

Posted by: Malooga | Nov 3 2005 23:32 utc | 32