Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
September 5, 2005
U.S. Loses Territory in Iraq

While the world looks in astonishment at the U.S. state failure in New Orleans, a similar embarrassment takes place in Iraq. The guerrillas win and hold territory in Iraq for the first time –  the U.S. loses ground.

The Washington Post reports:

Abu Musab Zarqawi’s foreign-led Al Qaeda in Iraq took open control of a key western town at the Syrian border, deploying its guerrilla fighters in the streets and flying Zarqawi’s black banner from rooftops, witnesses, residents and others in the city and surrounding villages said.

A sign newly posted at the entrance of Qaim declared, "Welcome to the Islamic Kingdom of Qaim." A statement posted in mosques described Qaim as an "Islamic kingdom liberated from the occupation."

The United States occupation force in Iraq has lost a strategic city in Iraq. The enemy, that was fought but not beaten in Afghanistan, has now captured a city in Iraq. A country in which it has never had, and would never have had a base, if the U.S. had not attacked that country.

Just as with Katrina, the officials are clueless:

U.S. Marine spokesman Capt. Jeffrey Pool said Marines had no word of any unusual activity in Qaim, but added it was possible that insurgents were acting in areas out of Americans’ sight.

The local ARVN substitute was beaten, its leader killed by the insurgents.

A Sunni Arab tribe, the Albu Mahal tribe, simultaneously vowed to drive Zarqawi’s fighters from the area, with the aid of the U.S. air strikes.

.. a car bomb placed by Zarqawi’s fighters in front of the home of a tribal leader, Sheikh Dhyad Ahmed, killed the sheikh and his son on Sunday, resident Mijbil Saied said.


It was unclear whether any Iraqi forces were in Qaim. A Zarqawi fighter said any Marines and Iraqi forces had left Qaim, with "nothing left of their crosses."

This is a huge victory for the extremist forces. They capture a complete city from the U.S. forces and may even hold it for a while. They can now reinforce through Syria, as the Syrians are helpless against these forces too.

The few U.S. troops that are available in the huge Anbar province are up North near  Mosul ghost fighting Zarqawi in Tal Afar, two hundred miles away from the western city of Qaim, and while in Baghdad the Interior Ministry in Baghdad is under attack.

The additional 25,000 troops that were supposed to reinforce the U.S. presence during the coming constitution vote and election have already been canceled. National guard troops from Mississippi and Louisiana are send back from Iraq further weakening the available force.

The Air Force can and will of course bomb Qaim to rubble. But bombs do not hold territory, boots on the ground do. But there are no more American boots available.

Comments

Old news Sept 1st? I think not:
How the US got its neoliberal way in Iraq
“Article 25: The state shall guarantee the reforming of the Iraqi economy according to modern economic bases, in a way that ensures complete investment of its resources, diversifying its sources and encouraging and developing the private sector.”
Eye rack, like arbusto, failed Presnitwit, Will somebody, anybody call this failed degenerate ceo’s, ticket !

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Sep 5 2005 17:32 utc | 1

WaPo update the story – quite a bit more US friendly now and longer. The first version had a timestamp of 10:01am, the new 01:03pm – interesting.

Posted by: b | Sep 5 2005 18:33 utc | 3

Sunni moves to unite with Shi’ites.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Sep 5 2005 18:38 utc | 4

Its pathetic how the western reactionary left is taking pleasure in Zarqawi’s beheading of 9 men, shooting of a woman (probably for not wearing the veil) and labelling her a prostitute, suicide car killing of a chief and his son, burning of CD stores, and enslavement and Talibanization of a city of 50,000 people.
Stop gloating about these atrocities, and get a life.

Posted by: hamidreza | Sep 5 2005 19:26 utc | 5

taking pleasure? am i missing something?

Posted by: annie | Sep 5 2005 19:41 utc | 6

@hamidreza — noting that the US is incompetent and hubristic (not to mention corrupt) doesn’t mean believing that its enemies are angels.
similarly those locals who committed crimes against persons during the breakdown of social order in NOLA were not nice people; however that doesn’t excuse the (deliberate?) neglect of authorities which created and exacerbated the conditions of social breakdown that facilitate such acts… and if you don’t believe that people’s actions are at least partially conditioned by prevailing circumstances, read all about the Stanford Prison Experiment and related examples of situational behaviour…
atrocities are never to gloat over, whether committed by the US and their mamelukes in Abu Ghraib or containers in Afghanistan, or by Koran-waving zealots, or by anyone else for any excuse whatsoever. they are only to mourn…

Posted by: DeAnander | Sep 5 2005 20:02 utc | 7

With the quality of rebuttal around this bar, I’d not even want to think of trolling.

Posted by: Juannie | Sep 5 2005 20:40 utc | 8

We’ve turned a corner

Posted by: Timka | Sep 5 2005 21:20 utc | 9

Yeah, you go and excuse the premedited murder of innocent women and men, by the Islamists who are ideologically committed to murdering dissenters, non-Muslims, and Iraqi seculars and intellectuals, and apologize for that as the Stanford Prison Experiment.
As a Muslim let me tell you reactionary leftist and anti-progressives that I have seen how the Islamists executed 100,000 Iranian leftists and intellectuals in 1979-1980, and that, without the help of their ideologically allied demented western reactionary leftists.
Your alliance with the 3rd World right wing Islamists and fascists is contemptible and loathsome. Go and educate yourselves about Spain 1936, where the true left fought off the fascists, you historically degenerate pseudo-socialist petty bourgeois who dare to call yourself the left.
And I will not be “trolling” this cesspool any further. Get a life and read about historical materialism you idiots.

Posted by: hamidreza | Sep 5 2005 21:39 utc | 10

no one here is excusing premeditated murder. you still have not provided a link for “how the western reactionary left is taking pleasure in Zarqawi’s beheading of 9 men” or any of the other atrocities you cite. read
this
and then you may get a clue as to what the neocons are up to. don’t flatter yourself by assuming the designers of this war are interested in bringing freedom or democracy to the middle east. if that were the case PNAC wouldn’t have its filthy hands all over the new constitution. if this is such a cesspool why are you here. can’t drag yourself away…..take a deep breath.

Posted by: annie | Sep 5 2005 21:51 utc | 11

oh, sorry , i didn’t realize that was the link i read upthread when i posted it. i’ve been all over the place this a.m. btw uncle$cam, grrreat link.

Posted by: annie | Sep 5 2005 21:57 utc | 12

Let me get this straight — the US unilaterally invades and brutally occupies Iraq under false pretenses, hamhandedly creates a failed state which it cannot control, stimulates recruiting and training of increasingly sophisticated terrorists, and sets the stage for a civil war; all in a callous bid to siphon funds to political cronies, and possibly gain leverage over future oil supplies; and objecting to all this is “reactionary”?
The Cheney administration ARE the fascists.
Idiot.
Oh, and speaking of Iran, thanks for the link to the Iranian Embassy papers uncle$cam. It is an incredible read. It’s amazing to have the opportunity to see directly into the corrupt machinery of US foreign policy, and it is absolutely fascinating. It is a pity the papers haven’t been sequenced, catalogued, footnoted and widely published in America; as were for instance the Watergate and Bay of Pigs papers. Raw history lessons. I’m glad the Iranian people had the benefit of them and it explains much of their suspicious posture towards the US today. Education and disclosure – the two worst enemies of the pseudo-democratic state.
And Malooga, thanks so much for your inspiring questioning in a previous thread. Unfortunately, a rule-of-thumb that has served me well is that people VERY rarely change once adults. On the other hand, another rule-of-thumb that has paid its way is that the vast majority of people are decent, and a little trust is generally a good bet as long as you pay attention to the result (see rule one). Finally, one of the nice aspects of being human (as opposed to being a tree) is that you can actually pick up and move to a better environment. If the US gets you down, you may be surprised by the condition of humanity, and even government, elsewhere… IMHO of course.

Posted by: PeeDee | Sep 5 2005 23:05 utc | 13

hami….if you wrong not with us you are against us, eh?
most of the crowd around this joint are against any war or death. if you feel so strong about upholding your kkkristian values, take your loved ones and join bush’s crusade……fucking wanker!

Posted by: lenin’s ghost | Sep 5 2005 23:24 utc | 14

Hamidreza twice orders his imaginary opponents to “get a life”. Each of the people around here has a life, perhaps not one that qualifies as a fulfilled one to H. But something tells me that I for one would find Hamidreza’s life, especially his/her way of interacting with others, rather unsatisfactory.
So take your compliments and run to where you don’t have to discuss your thoughts, Hamidreza.
Oh, and you sound like a spin machine of sorts. Which I have been feeding. Sorry.

Posted by: teuton | Sep 5 2005 23:28 utc | 15

I believe most progressives are not aligned with the Islamist extremists. They want all right wing radical factions out of power and reasonable capable governments established.
I do agree that many people are lacking in education, history, and ability to accurately grasp political reality. That’s what places like this are trying to do. Share knowledge and opinions so as to broaden understanding and make intelligent choices.
People do make mistakes because of the lack of understanding but it seems to me that the leftists here right now, while in possession of many negative human traits, sincerely desire a life for everyone free from fear of their own governments.

Posted by: jm | Sep 6 2005 0:29 utc | 16

I think I’ve been here before. Zarqawi’s men who occupy the border town of Qaim are not like Vietcong insurgents or elements of the North Vietnamese Army taking back a village for the people. These are murderers. They of course respond to another brutality, that of the USA. But, again, what do we say about this? Zarqawi’s men, make the Taliban seem reasonable–which they seemed to be to the CIA before and even after they took power in 1996. OK the US and the rest went to Iraq for all the wrong reasons, but they did get rid of the Caligula regime and the oil-for-food scam. They need to go, and they need to let Iraqis develop their own systems based on their own needs. The constitution is a joke–no one was asked what they wanted in it, only say yes or no, to questions which will seem irrelevant abstractions to people looking for food, a job, security.
What about the town of Qaim? It seems like a come-on to the US army. Blow it to smithereens and let the jihadis hold it up as another Fallujah. What else? Leave them to consolidate and think that the US is actually too scare to inflame wolrd opinion again? A Zarqawi ‘victory’ is the last thing anybody here wants, but why doesn’t anyone here say it? Or is that in fact the desired outcome?

Posted by: theodor | Sep 6 2005 1:20 utc | 17

Hey Hamidrezi, I have a life. And so does my family. But if the Republicans were to remain in power much longer, I won’t have a life. None of the working class, in this country or any other that the Cheney Machine invades will have a life.

Posted by: augie | Sep 6 2005 1:31 utc | 18

Hey Hamidrezi, I have a life. And so does my family. But if the Republicans were to remain in power much longer, I won’t have a life. None of the working class, in this country or any other that the Cheney Machine invades will have a life.

Posted by: augie | Sep 6 2005 1:37 utc | 19

read about historical materialism
Pretty funny, comrade. News flash: Liberals are not communists. Nor are we intimidated by Marx, whom we read and laughed out of court for spouting indefensible gibberish. We’re a bit more educated than you suppose. Human rights is an American ideal.

Posted by: Wolf DeVoon | Sep 6 2005 2:05 utc | 20

Okay, over at Crooks & Governators the host is asking that everybody tone down the rhetoric. We can do that here. I don’t know if I have seen any here or have seen too many but I think we can stop the Bush and Hitler comparisons. That’s overblown.
We can start with the Bush and Mussolini comparisons. Il Duce invaded Ethiopia and his splendid little war turned into a quagmire for him. Fighting an almost defeated British army in a sideshow, he got his ass kicked.
Il Duce was great at combining nationalism and socialism at home. And he gave great speeches. Hitler was impressed. Mussolini looked like a great powerful warlord.
Plus, bonus, doing a mash-up of the two great leaders names produces Busholini, now how naturally does that roll off the tongue?

Posted by: christofay | Sep 6 2005 3:10 utc | 21

Il Dunce

Posted by: b real | Sep 6 2005 3:12 utc | 22

theodir
i make a critique of your position in that what is quite certain is that which constitutes the iraqui resistance is not made up of juhadists or the mystery figure zaqarwi. if it was really just these groups – then it wuld have been all over very quickly. i think there are many parallels with the nlf in vietnam of the fifties & early sixties. indeed many many comparisons. that is, that the resistance is not wholly controlled & is made up of many forces of which the jihadists have been small in number. the resistance that is being conducted today can only be possible with the support of the people & that there implicity is overwhelming evidence of that. simple practical concerns reveal that
in fact i am surprised – that at such an early date in the resistance – they are so well formed – & follow strategies that are hurting the enemy deeply
i think of all the people who write here – i take perhaps the most extreme position – for i identified quite clearly to you the parallels with spain – i think the majority of posters here criticize this war for the most obvious reasons – it is illegal,, immoral & deeply criminal
i see very few of the posters here – identifying in any way with the zaqarwi position – or even the more large sectarian formations – but i think where we agree – is that each day the facts tell us that the resistance in iraq is in fact supported by the people, that this resistance is more multiple than the bourgeois press would have us believe
& if that person really understands what constitutes historical materialism then they should not be surprised by what is happening
the iranian revolution posed a problem for the left in the same way that chile did. in this sense – the left in chile demanded to be armed – especially in the llast fateful year – & salvador allende believed in the reasonableness of the opposition & of its backers – the us – it was a fatal error of judgement for popluar unity & for chile. in iran, it could be suggested that the left was not ruthless enough & was destroyed for its absence of ruthlessness
your citique – at least accept that we represent mutiple voices here covering a wide spectrum – halidreza simply paints us all with the same brush & wacks us over the head – while not saying anything of the criminal forces allied against the arab people – & their attempted seduction by islamic fundamentalism. after all it was the imperialist who have done their best to destroy any secular left or nationalist formation.
we all here cann accept a lesson or two – but none so casually thrown off. in your arguments i respect that simple fact – you do not do it casually, you are open & & critical & you do not attempt to demean or degrade others
i think it is possible & enviable that we have furious & angry debates – it is necessary – but there is never currency in degradation. that is the province of conservative commentators & the editor in chief rupert murdoch

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Sep 6 2005 3:19 utc | 23

Anybody know if the Rumsfield Support our Bloated & Aborted Iraqi Adventure/Rally the White People Round the Flag Celebration & Commenorative Plate\Presidential Photo Op still going to take place on Sept. 11. I really wanted to get that chance to see Clint Black ™. Also, a practical concern, how is security going to administrated? Isn’t it going to be hard to apply loyalty oaths for an open air invite all the people event like this? Perhaps we should have the Virginia/Lost Sons of the Confederates evacuate the greater D.C. Virginia Maryland Penn. Delaware area? I don’t want any hecklers interupting the camera lines.

Posted by: christofay | Sep 6 2005 3:28 utc | 24

Wow.
We were moved to tears when we read about Gore’s quiet effort to aid those effected by Bush’s mess.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/9/5/183618/3893
Character, Dignity, Action. Thank you lord for this man.
Why is he not in office? Who has a better claim?
If anyone can cut throught the Cheney-Rove BS Spin machine in a debate it is surely Gore. Someone give this man the Team and Support he needs to return to the national scene.

Posted by: patience | Sep 6 2005 3:34 utc | 25

R’giap,
You say that the resistance is broad and deep, and it probably is. But as you also say, there is no coherence or articulating centre. Zarqawi, through the media, is allowed to have more influence than his numbers would merit, but they can through terror turn a village or a town against a general resistance and force them to look to the US or the Iraqi authorities for help. The larger tier of sectarian resistance the Sunni extremist, Baathists and others who did well out of Saddam, also use terror to provoke the Shia into a civil war. Again, this (for them) runs the risk of backfiring, and driving the ordinary masses into the arms of the Iraqi army or the US. The Vietcong or the NVA took pains to not srtike terror into villagers, bringing them to their cause by showing that it was noble and right. I agree with your reading of Iran and Chile and the smashing of the left and the communists, but there is no straight analogy in Iraq. The fundamentalists and the sectarian terror has to be fought and smashed–but by whom?

Posted by: theodor | Sep 6 2005 3:41 utc | 26

A Zarqawi ‘victory’ is the last thing anybody here wants, but why doesn’t anyone here say it? Or is that in fact the desired outcome?
@theodor:
All of us here would like to send virtual ace bandages, aspirin, salt tablets, and valentines to this great freedon fighter, but ,for some reason, our E Mails get returned.
Apparently , it’s some kind of dialectical conflict in our EMail servers.
We are all much distressed and crying buckets. Bernhard will soon have to get some heavy-duty three-phase water pumps in here, or we will certainly drown like New Orleans.
@Wolf DeVoon:
Some folks don’t handle complexity and nuance well, historical or current. That’s all it is. To be expected. No biggie.

Posted by: Groucho | Sep 6 2005 4:23 utc | 27

@christofey:
I like Busholini:
But, can he make The City of New Orleans run on time?
And I sincerely hope that all ‘Lost Causes” can be in Washington in two weeks for the LIBERATION!

Posted by: General Cartman Lee | Sep 6 2005 4:54 utc | 28

This is psy-opps folks. Zarqawi doesn’t have a flag, he doesn’t exist most likely. This is being used to turn Iraqis against the resistance and get us ready for another noble destruction of an Iraqi city.

Posted by: folkers | Sep 6 2005 5:46 utc | 29

@folkers
That was actually my first question upon hearing this. Since when do individuals– even cartoon supervillians– get their own flag? As nicely as it would go with the image of Zarqawi absently stroking a white cat on his lap, I assumed it was a literary device in the news story and not a literal flag (“gathering under the flag of fill-in-the blank”…”auspices” might have been a better way to say it).
As for the existence of Zarqawi, I am absolutely sure that he is currently enjoying tea with Emmanuel Goldstein while they concoct some new fiendishness. I can not pinpoint the moment when Zarqawi replaced Osama bin Laden as the Boogieman of the People; presumably it was sometime after his C.I.A. contract had elapsed and he was no longer available for an emergency show trial. But the short answer to your question is “Yes, Virginia, there is a Zarqawi. He exists in the hearts of evildoers everywhere… in the imaginations of the xenophobically paranoid.”
It’s odd how I get called a “conspiracy theorist” when I express doubts about a tiny cabal of disenfranchised global superterrorists whose byzantine machinations lie at the heart of everything that works against US interests.

Posted by: Monolycus | Sep 6 2005 6:25 utc | 30

Juan Cole also questions the existence of this Zarqawi. He has also pointed out that the U. S. had an early chance to wipe him out before the invasion of Iraq but the Bush brain trust (uh hum) passed as they wanted the terrorist in Iraq to provide a reason to invade.

Posted by: christofay | Sep 6 2005 6:25 utc | 31

Groucho,
What are you talking about? It seems to be some sort of sarcasm but I don’t get it.

Posted by: theodor | Sep 6 2005 6:26 utc | 32

To the fanciers of the Zarqawi-as-chimera theorists: it makes lots of sense, but the CIA isn’t smart enough. Have a look at Steve Coll’s Ghost Wars–the internecine, interagency back stabbing goes too deep to get up to this level. Psy-ops is like smart bombing–as long as the enemy thinks that it exists and is effective, that goes some way to confusing everybody, which I suppose is good if you are in the CIA.

Posted by: theodor | Sep 6 2005 6:36 utc | 33

@ theodor
There may be other intelligence organizations that are
smart and ruthless enough to maneuver or invent a Zarqawi.
Agents provocateurs have been standard figures of
political intrigue for centuries, and it’s hard to believe that such techniques have gone out of style. Indeed, it beggars the imagination to believe that John Walker Lindh could successfully insinuate himself into Al Qaeda, while no Western intelligence agency has been able to do likewise.

Posted by: Hannah K. O’Luthon | Sep 6 2005 7:18 utc | 34

The point is that the idiot prince and his forces lost a city to these guys. Very few people here approve of the batshit end of the anti-occupaton forces but for them to be able to take territory is amazing.
Maybe our troll can enlighten us as to how this is a great leap forward in Dear Leaders genius plan for Iraq.
Zarqawi is at the very least an exaggerated figure: it’s easier for the media to understand and write about it if there is a single enemy to focus on. Otherwise they’d have to start explaining how complex the situation really is, and that would never do.

Posted by: Colman | Sep 6 2005 7:39 utc | 35

if we consider Zarqawi removed from the equation in Iraq, it would at the same time remove the Al-Queda face from the resistance. This would be counter-productive (from the administrations point of view) from both the domestic perspective and the military perspective, in that the terrorist association would potentially be lost. What would be left then would be a more clearly defined nationalist resistance to the continuing occupation, posing no credible international threat. And not incidentaly, this would also free up from the debate, any association imagined (as hamidreza) of “Islamo-faciscism” and the left. And as the evolution of constitutional debate within the Iraqi government would indicate serious internal fissures on federalization, privitaization, and notions of a welfare state (which polls indicate, Iraqis want), its not hard to see the utility (again) in having a Zarqawi around to squelch any “guilt by association” in drafting a constitution so contrary to the wishes of the people it supposedly is to represent. Ironically, hamidreza’s argument above could serve to illustrate these facts on the functional level — not to mention much of the oppression represented is now being written into the constitution, not by Zarqawi, but by the Shia/Kurd authority as supported (instructed) by the United States.

Posted by: anna missed | Sep 6 2005 8:07 utc | 36

If hamidreza had ANY knowledge of ME history during the 20th, he would know that the main backer of islamists and destroyer of leftist Arab movements has been the US, since the overthrow of Mossadegh, and even since the pact with the Saudis. They preferred to deal with crazed religious wackos rather than let the Arab peoples get leftist governments, pushing them in the arms of extremist right-wing religious nutcases as the only opposition to the nondemocratic regimes in place. Just look at Egypt.
This was done because, well, USSR was Evil. Now pray tell me how it was more evil than BenLaden and Zarqawi, and if those bastards really deserved US support in Afghanistan?

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Sep 6 2005 8:16 utc | 37

CJ,
was just wondering where you’ve been

Posted by: anna missed | Sep 6 2005 8:27 utc | 38

Whether or not Zarquawi exists is irrelevant. If Zarquawi had been kicked out of the Kurdish no fly zone by the US prior to the invasion it wouldn’t have changed the tenor of the resistance one iota. The majority of resistance is coming from local Iraqis pissed that BushCo are trying to enforce their viewpoint on them while Iraq’s resources are ‘privatised’ by BushCo donors.
There was plenty of chances to take out Zarquawi when the Kurds reported he was experimenting with gas on animals. The US was didn’t do so as it was happy to have a god botherer jostling Saddam from the Sunni side.
As has been repeated in here and eleswhere ad infinitum the Ba’athist regime and the Jihadists were political rivals and sworn enemies.
I suppose for the average wingnut like Hamidreza one arab that doesn’t agree with Amerikan domination of the Middle East is just the same as another.
Once the resistance got into full swing Zarquawi’s prescence became even more useful to BushCo since they could insinuate that all opponents of their theft of Iraq were crazed zealots and not Iraqi patriots. There are still many unanswered questions about Zarquawi’s group. Their first video execution of a US citizen happened after the hostage had been turned over to US authorities. The US claimed Mr Berg was released by them but no one has ever been able to satisfactorily account for how this young man moved from US custody to Zarquawi’s clutches.
Now that the administration is trying to find the 21st century equivalent of ‘peace with honour’ they are more prepared to differentiate between Iraqi patriots and day-tripping Jihadists.
Trouble is the situation has become so confused as Iraq disintegrates it would be a foolhardy person indeed that claimed to know who was up who and who was paying the rent.
Muqtada al-Sadr is another example of a fellow who one week is spawn of satan and next week having to dodge GWB’s bearhugs n “how’re they hangin Muqty?”
I think his opposition to the new constitution has put him on the outer again but we can’t be sure about that since he appears to be resisting the Iranian takeover of the Shia Arabs’ political base. In theory that should have made him the current ‘wunderkind’.
If the US just wants to get the f…k out without passing Go or collecting $200 Muqty is slowing that process. If the US truly does want to get the Sunnis onside by putting the kybosh on Federalism then Muqty is still the man who can drag enough Shia along to call it a party.
I don’t think anyone in BushCo really knows what the best option should be. All they appear to have found out is that whatever horse they back will still be running the following week when everyone else is lining up for the next race.
Incidentally when Texas creeper reminds me of that german fellow with the Chaplin mustache I shall continue to point it out if the mood takes me.
Just as our pseudo-caring troll lumped the MoA community together as comminists or somesuch; supporters of the jackasses persist in imangining that just because people in here don’t have time for the repug agenda we must all support their effete collection of combed over, mealy mouthed hacks.
If that Gore chap is so wonderful why didn’t he stand up the the repugs when he had the opportunity?
The spineless way that the dems refused to put a stop to the disenfranchisement of African Amerikan voters probably assisted the repugs decision to let the poor of New Orleans die.
That shouldn’t surprise us of course since the democrat party invented the whole stratagem of disallowing black voters.
The attitude of Southern white democrats to the poor black underclass in NO was neatly summed up by the Louisiana governor’s ‘lock and load’ comments. In fact we can be sure that if BushCo gets off the hook on this massacre it will be thanks to the dems who were just as content to see the untermensch die as the repugs were.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Sep 6 2005 8:29 utc | 39

Bernhard,
you are waaay behind the events. It’s not just Qaim. Tel Afar too was taken over by the Sunni Islamist-coloured resistance (but not Arab: Trurkoman), months ago, and so was Haditha.
Meanwhile, the South, most major cities in the South are in the effective control of Shi’a militias, also fundamentalists. Not just the anti-US Mahdi Army of Moqtada al-Sadr: also the government-aligned troops of the rival Sadrist Fadila Party, the SCIRI-aligned Badr Brigade, the Marsch Arab Hezbollah, and the DAAWA party militia. (I note Najaf itself was in the effective control of the Badr Brigade – before the Sadrist takeover last April; they came in and were allowed to rule largely unheeded by the occupiers just after the invasion.)
Meanwhile, in the North, the peshmerga militias associated with the two Kurdish warlords are also allowed free reign. While they are less fundie (though they too like to attack and destroy women’s association’s buildings etc.), they practice ethnic cleansing and takeover of authority on a large scale. For example, the Tell Afar uprising started out as a Kurdish-Turkoman conflict.

Posted by: DoDo | Sep 6 2005 10:15 utc | 40

Mossadegh, Time Magazine’s man of the Year, 1951
I’m w/you folkers, as R.A.Wilson says, “reality is what you can get away with.” I also question icons such as ‘flags’ in islamic faith or in the Quran. We all know that everything rides on a Cheney admin victory, which means they are desperate, and will in that desperation do anything.
p.s. great points of view guys, great discourse.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Sep 6 2005 11:18 utc | 41

Prospice tibi – ut Gallia, tu quoque in tres partes dividaris.
Watch out – you might end up divided into three parts, like Gaul.
Shelve Your ‘Rosy, Unilateral’ Ideas Mr. Bush!
Given the gravity of the difficulties now facing Iraq and in consequence, the world, President Bush must now reach out to those he has ignored, argues this editorial from the Netherlands’ NRC Handelsblad.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Sep 6 2005 12:03 utc | 42

Quote;
This is psy-opps folks. Zarqawi doesn’t have a flag, he doesn’t exist most likely.
***
This about sums it all…

Posted by: vbo | Sep 6 2005 12:30 utc | 43

@ theodor
The larger tier of sectarian resistance the Sunni extremist, Baathists and others who did well out of Saddam, also use terror to provoke the Shia into a civil war./
Are you sure it is so simple? Shirin, an Iraqi who posts at “Today in Iraq”, and other places around the web states that many Baathists, up to and including the infamous “deck of cards” were Shiite. Furthermore, according to Shirin, and it makes common sense to me, there is a great amount of intermarriage between the sects, as well as the Turkman and the Kurds. Tribal identities (tribes are mixed religiously) have been more important than religious fractures.
Logically, for Iraqis to face a common imperialistic enemy, the ability to cohere is more omportant than the ability to tell their patient the
It is likely that American or Israeli covert teams have as much interest in stirring up internicine quarrels as anyone. Juan Cole addresses this today.
the US and the rest went to Iraq for all the wrong reasons, but they did get rid of the Caligula regime and the oil-for-food scam.
The US is responsible for the Caligula regime! We are just shifting puppets to better control Iraqis. Don’t be naive. The oil for food scam was a big nothing designed to shift outrage among the public. The scandal is that a sovereign nation was forced to submit to sanctions that starved a half million of its citizens. As to arguments to the effect that Saddam squandered money on palaces while people starved–look at the poverty rate in this country and what is happening in New Orleans, while the ultra-rich get tax break after tax break. The same argument can be made, with more evidence, in this country. Living in a glass house, Americans gaze is riveted on the view, never seeing its own domestic squalor.

Posted by: Malooga | Sep 6 2005 13:08 utc | 44

Anna: well I’ve been there, just posting far less – less time, and more and more blogs here and there, so less time for posting. Beside, I was feeling like copyying/pasting most of my daily outrages, what with the current situation and Bushfuck administration. Trying to get the bigger picture isn’t easy, and it took down on my posting habits.
Speaking of big picture, this is the wrong thread, but well, with the soaring oil prices and Bush numbers plummeting, I’d be a bit wary of the coming weeks and months. Not that I really expect a 9/11 redux, not exactly. But i fear some “distraction” is need by Bushco, and with the sudden recent events, they may botch and fail it even more than in the past.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Sep 6 2005 13:53 utc | 45

Here’s a great piece from 2 weeks ago by Andrew Bacevich:
CALL IT A DAY
I have read Bacevich for 3 years, and his analysis has been accurate as well as timeless.
To build on what Bacevich says:
Zarkawi(does he exist?) and his largely foreign suicide bombers
are useful tools to the Iraqi insurgency at this point and will be discarded by that insurgency when they are no longer needed. And probably will get their asses kicked real fine if they put up too much of a ruckus about it.
AlQ was never a serious military force. Even if it numbers >10,000 men, which I doubt, it’s major strength is it’s ability from time to create terroristic mischief. It’s doubtful that it could bring down any government in the ME right now.
The longer the US fiddles around in Iraq, the more recruits the terrorists get. That’s one of the main reasons any sane person should desire the speedy US withdrawal from Iraq.

Posted by: Groucho | Sep 6 2005 14:06 utc | 46

Sorry abot screwing up the italics on the last post. I wrote it last night, then posted this morning without catching up on the thread.
Wow! So many great points made here. Kudos, esp. for folkers, Mono, Hannah K.O., Clueless, and DiD.
Two points: Clueless argues that because the USSR was Evil, we supported the more evil Bin Laden and Zarqawi. I agree. But, following this logic, an impartial observer of human affairs would have to conclude that this makes the US more evil than the Soviet Union. This is an argument from Chomsky, who calls the US “the greatest purveyor of violence in the world.” Note that this analysis does not rest on solipsistic “intentions”, as the American propaganda system would like it, but on effects. Therefore, the converse is also true: We are not more evil than other smaller empires, we just have the power to commit more violence in the service of control, and use it. The Soviets, Chinese and Europeans would do the same if they had our degree of power. History records that they did when they had that power in the past. To analyze “intentions” is to deceive oneself and others. You don’t care about intentions when you are on the receiving end of a sword, rifle or smart bomb.
Second point: The Neo-Cons are suceeding in their long term plan, which is to carve the Middle East up into small isolated city states, which are then easier to dominate. Iraq is almost completed, then they will calve off the oil-rich parts of Saudi Arabia, setting up the same infighting between the newly empowered and the newly disenfranchised that we witness in Iraq. The goal, then, is to spread from there, to Iran, Syria, Lebanon Redux, the rest of the Gulf, and probably Turkey as well. Secondarily, they are working surreptitiously, with the cooperation of Britain (who wants recover its lost regional hegemony), to weaken the E.U. This is why they pushed so hard for Turkey’s inclusion in the E.U. Conlicts in Turkey, like the conflicts in the southern Balkans are wars lapping at Europe’s borders, weakening Europe. That is why we invaded Afghanistan and reinstitued the Heroin trade, which principally flows into Europe. Same for a good deal of the fanatic Islamic cells in Europe. Ever wonder why these “Islamists” are more angry at Europe than the US? Why aren’t we riddled with Islamic cells here? Anyway, a little terrorism is always goood to control the populace.
All local events must be looked at as global in import. But, I digress from my main point here: The Neo-Cons are carving the Middle East up into city states. This will result in increasing violence, terrorism, and disruption of the oil markets.
The elite are set up well enough after all the tax cuts to ride out the coming, but necessary, global depression. Afterwards, assets can be picked up for pennies on the dollar. The goal of the depression will be to reassert political and economic control while lowering population levels and drain of the earth’s precious resources. Ecological measures will be implemented, but in a non-democratic top-down manner. The vastly mitigates any political cost, as change is “forced” upon us. This is important because the alternative is a “democratic people’s revolution”, rejecting the neo-liberal agenda, rejecting the green and biotech revolutions poised to control earth’s foodstock and water, and rejecting capitol intensive bureaucratic nuclear power, embracing local decentralized alternative methods of food and power generation.
The principle conflict among the ruling elite, is between this radical strategy–which risks vast upheaval of energy supplies, and greatly increases tensions that could lead to nuclear war and the end of life as we know it–and the more gradualist approach Clinton and the Democrats followed of undermining and weakening regional powers without redrawing map lines. This is the difference between using the UN for its own purposes, versus wanting to do away with any international say.
Anyway, that is my argument of what is going on in the Middle East from our side, not elaborating on the competing strategies of other global powers.

Posted by: Malooga | Sep 6 2005 14:34 utc | 47

about

Posted by: Malooga | Sep 6 2005 14:36 utc | 48

Who said that was our territory ever? it was part of Iraq. Way before that it was part of the desert. As much as I can tell, we barely controlled it militarily. Or was that Qaim Wyoming?

Posted by: christofay | Sep 6 2005 15:14 utc | 49

Groucho: If the main resistance gets enough power, I think, too, they’ll settle scores with the wildest jihadists, or will expel them by force. Ben Gurion had to force the most extreme guys like Stern Gang, once Israel got its independance. This would be the case, assuming Iraq doesn’t go down into civil war, in which case the Sunnis will continue to get along, or at least ignore, psychos like Zarqawi because they would still fight the same enemy (Shia or Shia/Kurd power in Baghdad).
Malooga: I didn’t mean the US was more evil. I think your assessment is quite correct, the US has the power to do greatest harm, and therefore is the most dangerous right now. With great power comes great responsibility. I also suppose other powers and societies would do as bad if they got enough power. I’m still hoping Europe has learned from the 20th century, but since they’re now seeing it more as an internal war than anything else, it’s possible that a strengthened Europe would again go on that arrogant and imperialist path, if it had the option to do it.
That the elite may try to get even more gravvy from a depression is clearly a possibility. Though here I would refer to the historical fact that empires tend to fall, and that no economic system is eternal. Basically, my own assessment is that they will completley fail to control the meltdown and that this time it may well take them down with the whole system. Since radical Islam and Chinese capitalism would be some of the emerging trends, I wouldn’t bet that the world would greatly benefit from a US collapse, though. Parts of it surely, but in the long run and for the whole of makind and the planet, we sorely need another new model.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Sep 6 2005 15:45 utc | 50

@CJ;
-> I wouldn’t bet that the world would greatly benefit from a US collapse, though. Parts of it surely, but in the long run and for the whole of makind and the planet, we sorely need another new model.
That is why true lefties do not wish for a defeat of the US but a transformation. That is the single reason which keeps me motivated to keep doing what I do. Thanks for saying it Joe.
Max

Posted by: Anonymous | Sep 6 2005 17:21 utc | 51

That was me.
Max

Posted by: Max Andersen | Sep 6 2005 17:22 utc | 52

Also, having lived in the Middle East a bit and hosted many ME students in my house, I have a few choice things to say to HamidReza but it will take too long and he is a tool anyway.
Max

Posted by: Max Andersen | Sep 6 2005 17:24 utc | 53

max
i would truly love to see a transformation but i think that is now, quite impossible. if such a transfoormation is possible it can only be arrived at the the decisive defeat of u s imperialism – not necessarily in war but by its own recklessness & absence of moderation. it took stalingrad, koursk for the german people & political leadership to understand how to be good citizens in a larger europe
the narratives of obl & zaqarwi are so poor in their scripting – i think the inventors were hired off some rupert murdoch project. not only does it lack credibility but has taken – with the many turns of the twisted narrative into farce – a farce that murdoch makes his living from
i agree with groucho – that while the jihadists serve as a powerful means – they will be used by the resistance – but that they constitute an ifintismally small section of it – that when their usefulness is finished – they will be finished – history has always taught us that.
& it seems apparent to me that the military of this leadership is very precise in its strategy – in the way & how it fights & how it chooses to fight. this would seem to indicate to me – that there were people within the military who had already planned for such a war – some time before it began
& my friend theodor – it is very ‘vitnamese’ – in that as the nlf & nva did – you create a target & you dissapear – no one can seriouslly suggest that in baghdad for example – there was anything approaching – full battle – it would have been extremely unwise to have done so & the military leadersgip chose to wait & wait they have
i do not think they could have expected the perfect conditions for armed struggle that american criminality & brutality nourished. nor could they have expected that the americans would neglect the needs of the masses. in that first moment – if the peace was going to be won it could have been won on propoganda but the reality was the opposite. we got the propoganda & the raquis got the war & neglect. there has never been a real attempt to even show a shadow of infrastructure & today even the most basic needs are not available outside of the green zone, oil fields & military bases
such has been the criminality & the stupiduty i would imagine the resistance has had no problems recruiting
& again following vietnam – the mistake the field for the world. they imagine the green zone as if it was saigon or a hue
the puppet ‘govt’ the puppet ‘constitution’ the puppet ‘armies’ are a sad & cruel joke
the narratives that reasonable people are expcted to believe are contradicted by daily evidence – evn to the whores who tried to sell this war – i would think more worrying for the bush cheney junta – there are thos within the american military leadership who speak quite openly that they cannot win, ever
it is a fools game – they can only ‘win’ by using more force & more force is guaranteed to create a firmer resistance not only in iraq but in any country that feels the boots of us repression
the iraquis are doing as the vitnames did before the – giving the enemy false victories to be swallowed up in. they are the ghost armies who show an incredibly detailed sense of intelligence, military & otherwise for example & this can be connected to the resistance being a part of a people constantly providing information – but it also speaks of intelligent use of that information
the invading u s army & their lackeys articulate or enact no such intelligence. they are as been said in killing iraquis sacrificing their own young & poor
again i will say that a transfriation will only be arrived at in defeat. with all imperialism – it has always been so

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Sep 6 2005 17:59 utc | 54

Thought I’d add this one question. The current “debate” in Iraq over the constitution is always considered along ethnic/religious divisions. As I see it, the real internal debate is, simply put, about the (future) flow of capital, does it consolidate (US interests) or does it dissiminate (what the Iraqi people want). This is a left/ right dialectic, why is’nt it considerded as such?
Off to work now, but would appreciate some thoughts on this.

Posted by: anna missed | Sep 6 2005 19:13 utc | 55

I don’t care how many weapons the USA has or how powerful the country appears, I think there is a fundamental weakness in direct physical martial skill which might account for the historical reluctance to go to war. I believe our days in the field are numbered for awhile. In the next years we will have to rebuild strength. I would think that the sense of real threat as we weaken further will turn us inward to rebuild. The leaders of a country at any time do not hold the power. They are the symbols of the society’s state at the time. The entire collective always holds the power and the people at the top are part of the division of labor. The leadership grows out of the whole in accordance with the need of the time. Although we can’t see why exactly this is happening now, we will in retrospect.
The world can use us and is probably very much in favor of a transformation which is probably underway now. This is such a young country but it has reached the point where some hard maturing lessons must be learned. We’ve been protected in ways but to me it feels like we have to face the big wide world. we will have to straighten up. I am already feeling this in my town on the streets. A seriousness I didn’t detect before.
An invasion and occupation is a frightening thing and we have yet to learn that lesson, but growth into adulthood comes in stages so it might be awhile.
Whatever is in store and as horrible as events have been, I think this is child’s play compared to what can happen. If we are going to play with the big guys we’d better get ready.

Posted by: jm | Sep 6 2005 19:38 utc | 56

The American Empire probably went down with the World Trade center.
You don’t conquer lands and build an empire on the ground without an army. This is all nonsense.

Posted by: jm | Sep 6 2005 20:08 utc | 57

unless of course the mayor can pull it together, ultimately it all comes down to the mayor, or is it the governor, i can’t keep it straight;)

Posted by: annie | Sep 6 2005 20:27 utc | 58

qanna missed – As I see it, the real internal debate is, simply put, about the (future) flow of capital,
That is correct and I have tried to point it out in various comments.
The Baathist system had turned from social-democracy to a social-one-part-dictatorship. But the common thing was social.
What is coming now thanks to Bremer and kalizad is neo-liberalism – without anything social.
Free health care, free education, free food or those in need, the right to work, peoples owenership of the natural resources, HAD been in the “constititution” draft the Iraqis put up. The are now gone – guess who did this.
The above rights and benefits are also deeply inshrined in Islamic belief as they onece had been inshrined in Christian belief (which the Islamic is build on).
The whole sunni shia turkmen kurd arab divide is strategy that follows PNAC thoughts. It is unreal. The fight is about a social-whatever and a neo-capitalist-whatever.
I hope the social-whatever win.

Posted by: b | Sep 6 2005 21:10 utc | 59

anna lissed has noted the most central question – that brooks no ambiavalence – what & who does the invasion & occupation serve?
& the answer to that is unequivocally us capitaal & the comprador interests in iraq & elsewhere
it is important to note that the invasion & occupation of iran follows the same logic
the strangest character of all this is that capital has returned in its way to the robber baron period of the 19th century – plunder it all while you ave the chance – also a great deal like the white elites of south africa beofre mandela – to the last second – ripping the guts out of the country without any concern for the people & interestingly enough not even for their proper children
i will argue with theodor & slothrop on this – u s capital it not some incredibly complicated configuration of interests – the supposed transnationality – serves the same people
imperialism of all kinds has detested democracy of any form for the ‘others’ & just lately it is not much interested in the notion for its won people who are the direct beneficiairies & victims of the greed of that capital

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Sep 6 2005 23:25 utc | 60

It’s odd how I get called a “conspiracy theorist” when I express doubts about a tiny cabal of disenfranchised global superterrorists whose byzantine machinations lie at the heart of everything that works against US interests.
Monolycus you are in good form today. Thanks for that quotable moment.

Posted by: DeAnander | Sep 6 2005 23:50 utc | 61

But what are these US interests?

Posted by: jm | Sep 7 2005 0:23 utc | 62

jm
we are witnessing the crude hammer of u s interests in iraq which are benefiting from every possible angle – while they plunder & destroy. they create security firms that are without security. you have halliburton & co openly looting money in a way that makes whatever they accuse people in new orleans of as being toytown
no services have been provided. none outside heavily protected garrisons. they are interested in defending themselves & thankfully even that they are not capable of
if it was not so horrific it would be a comedy of such proportions – this whole process of phony & unfulfilled contracts, services that are never provided yet bills & more bills from the phantom armies of u s capital. we are watching greed that would make mad king leopold feel at home. iraq is their fief & they would dearl love to make the whole middle east a larger fief – with the psychopathic israeli army as its proxy
u s interests have bevome absolutely entwined with their representatvies at all & every level of this criminal administration – which has more in common with the gambino crime family than it does with any form of govt – no matter how impoverished.
u s interests are represented by papa doc bush who seems possessed by jackie gleason on vermouth mixed with cleaning products. their is no policy it is voodoo.
note wo is benefiting today in iraq & you have your anser on what those interests constitute but they are only the beginning unless the resistance deals blow so powerful that it will scare the shit out of the other potential vultures

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Sep 7 2005 0:33 utc | 63

paul craig roberts over at counterpunch – this conservative comentator names names & is not at all unclear on speaking of ‘us interests’
capital is not mysterious – it mystifies to cover its real & always brutal intent

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Sep 7 2005 0:38 utc | 64

talibai says saddam confesses. well fuck me dead. what a surprise. & of course being judged by paragons of rights & law. this is getting so burlesque & it is said with such straight faces by the buffoons of cnnfoxbbc as if it actually meant anything. saddam will never see justice of any kind or of any sort. he will be brutally murdered by the americans – of that there can be no question. he has too much to tell of his old pals who still inhabit this criminal administration
i wish i could laugh at this nonsense but i cannot

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Sep 7 2005 0:48 utc | 65

I think this is fundamental to our problem. Establishing our interests. It is not black and white. If you really take an honest look you will see massive confusion on all sides as to what the intersts really are. How is the American resistance going to sustain its lavish lifestyle and still bring down the plutocracy?

Posted by: jm | Sep 7 2005 1:05 utc | 66

interests are largely based on privelege & benefit. this is done at the exense & human cost of ‘others’. american will have to commence to livie in a world as members & not as perpetrators
western civilisation is faced by this choice but nowhere as brutally as is the necessity for america

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Sep 7 2005 1:12 utc | 67

r’giap,
I’ve heard about everything the cabal has done ad nauseum, but the irradication of this crime family and the end of the Iraq adventure will do little if we don’t also look at the underlying problems that created this. I feel that we might have this opportunity and it is imperative that we try to understand the whole situation as this phase ends. Few people seem willing to do this. How far are you willing to go, how much are you willing to sacrifice, to create a more equitable society?

Posted by: jm | Sep 7 2005 1:16 utc | 68

@jm
“If you really take an honest look you will see massive confusion on all sides as to what the intersts really are. How is the American resistance going to sustain its lavish lifestyle and still bring down the plutocracy?”
If you were asking about the “US interests” referred to in my quote about phantom terrorist organizations, then you are also referring to phantom US interests. In that case, US interests involve the democratization and liberation of peoples who had previously enjoyed a pretty damned high standard of living despite a decade of cruel US sanctions, prosperity and equal opportunity for all, basic human rights, tax breaks, cheap gas, world peace, love and happiness, a fluffy bunny in every two-car garage et cetera, ad nauseum. To minimise your confusion, put these “interests” in that happy place with Saddam Hussein’s stockpile of weapons of mass destruction and Kuwaiti babies ripped from incubators. It’s all the same stuff. This is also a good place for you to stick that “American resistance” you were talking about that only resists a plutocracy when it doesn’t cut them in on the action.
I wasn’t aware that my year+ of unemployment constituted a “lavish lifestyle”, but in the interests of being politically consistent I will have to say that I am perfectly willing to abandon it for the greater good. I oppose the plutocracy for two reasons… first, it is their policies that are creating and perpetuating the misery of humans worldwide and destroying the very planet that we live on, and secondly (I must admit my biases if this is going to be a productive discussion), I have an almost pathological hatred towards wealthy, privileged people who benefit at the expense of everyone and everything around them. My politics are not based upon the preservation of my “lavish lifestyle”; they are based upon the preservation of the human species.
From where I am standing, there can be no confusion about what constitutes US interests. But I can see how confusing it would be if you internalise the happy faerie tale “interests” that are used to justify and market the expansion of the Empire.

Posted by: Monolycus | Sep 7 2005 1:41 utc | 69

I have been away from this site for a few days, but the person I come back for is r’giap. I am not as well-studied in dialectical materialism as he is (I am willing to wager real money I know more about Marx’s economics than he does), but I think he is mainly right in his assessment. Al Zarquawi is a PR creation. He is not relevant to what is happening in Iraq. The Resistance — let us call it by its true name — is winning in Sunni-Land. The Neocons wanted Iraq to be a US pawn. This is not going to happen. The US is experiencing a military defeat the likes of which will put the New Orleans catastrophe in a deep shade. There will come a time — and it is not far off — when we will not be able to supply our troops in security. At that point they are hostages to what happens around them.
As to Saddam’s confession — who knows? I personally doubt he made one. What does it cost to extract a signature from him, and photo-shop it onto another document? Why would he confess? He is condemned to death, no matter what. This is just another PR trick to distract the Americans from what their government has done to them in New Orleans. Unfortunately, Americans don’t give a shit about Iraq. So it won’t matter. As to President S., he will be executed in all illegality. It is a kind of cosmic justice that he end in that way.

Posted by: Knut Wicksell | Sep 7 2005 1:43 utc | 70

@jm
“…the irradication of this crime family and the end of the Iraq adventure will do little if we don’t also look at the underlying problems that created this.”
Okay, you posted that while I was fighting the error messages the server kept throwing at me. And I agree with you wholeheartedly.
Sacrifice must be made by everyone if things are going to ever work in an equitable and healthy way. People will have to give up their gluttonous, privileged values and no, even if we lost the Forbes 500 set today, it would not immediately rectify the underlying social values that gave rise to them.
But if we lost them today, they would not continue marketing those values to us. And that’s a start.

Posted by: Monolycus | Sep 7 2005 1:46 utc | 71

knut
i’d wager also that you know more about marxist economics than i thugh i have read capital & theory of surplus value at 14 in a study group, again at abut 28 when i was interested in adapting capital into a performance work, reread it again in the light of althuseer & co – lire le capital & have been rereadin it in fench since the last summer. so i’ve given the old bugger a lot of time
i too have what monolycus calls a pathologcal hatred of the rich but perhaps that was because we have had to live with their most imbevili representatives – or perhaps olf f s fitgerald didnn(t tell us all he nkew about them
i too – think there is no confusion about what those interests constitute – & how they arrived there & through what means & most importantly what forms of complicity & degredation have allowed criminals of the most crude variety hold all the political judicial & legislative means
& i would have thought new orleans & the scandal of it would have revealed once & for all for normal people – how much they are held in contempt by their rulers. it was after all a most salutory lesson in their hatred of us
saddam was an autocrat – & a us supported autocrat at that for some time – but the very real benefits that iraquis xperienced under him cannot be denied. he did not for example hold the record for the incrceration & killing of its citizens as the us has done for some time now
i have a friend ere – an exile – whose father & elder brother were killed under saddam & whose mother was assinated by americans in a bombardement of a shelter – he is an aramic christian – as is tariq aziz – but he has no question about that the situation is much much worse now – whenever he speaks of his country – you feel it tearing away at him – at his dignity
& i think that is what i hate in the rich the most – the way they methodically treat the disinherited, or the simply poor with such disregard & with such an absence of dignity. they are indecent & i am saden enough to believe in decency, moral decency
jm – what have i given up – to fight this fight. all. to do what i do. i gave whatever went before all up. i learnt to love life rather than fear it though all such enterprises are underwritten in melancholy

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Sep 7 2005 3:09 utc | 72

I am willing to wager real money I know more about Marx’s economics than he does
And no doubt to claim such competance also intends some great refutation of Marx by you?
NOLA proves once and for all the uselessness of Marx, doesn’t it knut?

Posted by: slothrop | Sep 7 2005 3:53 utc | 73

At least marx has normative ambitions. This demand for solutions is lacking everywhere in our culture. And rgiap is correct the time for action is always now, even as the culture, disciplined everywhere by the the endless precision of description, seems to always tell us: nothing else is possible.

Posted by: slothrop | Sep 7 2005 4:11 utc | 74

‘saddam was an autocrat – & a us supported autocrat at that for some time – but the very real benefits that iraquis xperienced under him cannot be denied. he did not for example hold the record for the incrceration & killing of its citizens as the us has done for some time now’
R’giap,
Had to blink when I read these words. If not in scale, then at least in quality, Saddam’s rule is unsurpassed in the modern period. He was only a beginner as far as genocide is concerned, and Stalin could have shown him something about mass deportations, but for pervasive terror, Saddam is up there with the big boys. The nazi’s and the Stalinists left enough room for individuals and groups to summon up the courge to resist. But not in Iraq from 1979-2003. Sorry to be book-suggesing again, but Samir al Khalil’s Republic of Fear (written by an insider under a pseudonym) says it all really. Of course the global media distort our reality, Baudrillard had it right (after Debord) a generation ago. But consider the fact the the right-wing media have did Saddam a favour: Abu Graib is now synonymous with US war crimes–what this neglects is that is was a real butcher’s shop under Saddam. The guards did not ‘only’ terrorise and degrade numberless inmates, but chopped them, hanged them, burned them, electified them and dumped them. Saddam may have ‘ordered’ his society, but god fucking help you if you said the tiniest hing against the regime.

Posted by: theodor | Sep 7 2005 4:13 utc | 75

malooga,
Just saw your post. Of course the US created Saddam and nurtured Baathism for all the usual reasons–but does that not make it doubly incumbent upon US to get rid of him?
This is a excellent thread–have just given myself eyestrain reading it.

Posted by: theodor | Sep 7 2005 4:21 utc | 76

I don’t know what it is about Iraq that makes it so vulnerable to severe control, but societies have their fundamental character and some seem to need iron fisted tactics from their leaders to survive. Not that they can’t change and evolve into entirely different systems but it probably takes a long long time. I don’t know where it starts. How does a society learn to govern itself in a somewhat democratic way with no experience?
@Monolycus
I wasn’t aware that my year+ of unemployment constituted a “lavish lifestyle”, but in the interests of being politically consistent I will have to say that I am perfectly willing to abandon it for the greater good.
That’s the thing. The affluence in our society is so ingrained, so many people have no idea just how addicted to it they are. I tend to dismiss a lot of the really progressive rhetoric when I see this disconnect. So many have absolutely no real experience with a sparse existence, a lean and muscular approach to the struggle(even if metaphorically), and what is involved in radical social change. I’m encouraged by the willingness to abandon personal gratification to some extent for a delayed social benefit. There is such a vast amount of energy needed to be a functioning revolutionary, pushing against all that resistance. I think one has to really cut the intake when one gets going. One can’t be weighed down.
I only know about the wealthy that I don’t desire what they have. Their misery is obvious and there is really no hope for them since they are on the top. That, too, doesn’t appeal to me, since loss is the only thing left.
The problem with so many who think they want egalitarianism is that they often unconciously aspire to that wealthy status. You have to be ruthlessly honest with yourself and highly aware, I believe, to be truly effective in bringing about lasting social change.
i learnt to love life rather than fear it though all such enterprises are underwritten in melancholy.
That’s so beautiful, r’giap. So elegant.

Posted by: jm | Sep 7 2005 5:46 utc | 77

Monolycus, you also bring up a good point. I imagine you are comfortable to some extent even though unemployed. Being unemployed is a good place to work from having the time to devote to more important things such as revolution. Lavishness is relative, as many people from New Orleans are just discovering. Is there a way in relative comfort to effect social change?

Posted by: jm | Sep 7 2005 6:00 utc | 78

How far are you willing to go, how much are you willing to sacrifice, to create a more equitable society?
i think i would certainly be able to live without most of the comforts i have grown accustomed to. i don’t know if i could be happy if i couldn’t get warm.long periods of time without human contact would be hard. repetitious factory type labor probably would drive me nuts. i can’t spend long periods of time in rooms w/out windows or access to the ground, because i get claustrophobic. there are so many things we take for granted because we don’t think about them.air, not breathing decent air. these are the things i couldn’t give up easily. i hope in my lifetime to experience a transformation in society. i have spent months in the mountains w/only a pack .
i would sacrifice alot. but not my integrity.maybe i’m spoiled tho. my life is so easy.
i don’t know how to effect social change on a large scale.

Posted by: annie | Sep 7 2005 6:42 utc | 79

@ b, r’giap,
Thanks for taking up my above question, and to follow with another concerning the constitution — it would appear that the negotiations, and I guess by negotiations, we must assume the real contentions are between the Iraqis and the US and not so much between the Iraqis themselves — unless the major contentions are between the Iraqis on how to deal with the US demands and still reach some compromise amongst themselves. This might in some way explain the vexing (to some) question of how the US has not only allowed Islamic sharia law to be written into the constitution, but reportedly encouraged it to be so. Perhaps shria law was the price of continuing the Bremmer neo-liberal economic system, and a last ditch effort to maintain US economic interests. It makes some sense, the Shia get a legal system complicit to Sistanis wishes, along with US military backup, and serious consideration of the super province (autonomy) idea consistent with a far reaching federation. They also may feel that the trade off, of neo-liberal privitization, because of their lack of traditional experience, might just as well remain in the hands of the Americans (temporaraily) rather than fall back into the hands of the Sunnis. Also fitting into this scenerio is the Sadr faction, which, as leader of the economically disfranchised, understandably is opposed to the federation/privitization scheme, knowing full well his people would be the first to be priced out with the liquidization of national assets.
According to polls, the Iraqi people do’nt want this neo-liberal transformation, and as b said above pretty much favor the socialist model of a strong centralized government with an even distribution of cash from national assets, state run health and welfare system, and etc. So it remains to be seen with the vote this October, if the religious card (values?) can be used to trump(blind) the economic self interest of the Iraqi people. Is there an echo in here?

Posted by: anna missed | Sep 7 2005 7:45 utc | 80

@jm
“I imagine you are comfortable to some extent even though unemployed. Being unemployed is a good place to work from having the time to devote to more important things such as revolution. Lavishness is relative, as many people from New Orleans are just discovering. Is there a way in relative comfort to effect social change?”
Tell you what… why don’t you spend more than a year of your life with no income whatsoever, none, living like a god damned parasite after having gone through all your savings and trying to defer tens of thousands of dollars of student loan debt while scouring every want ad, pounding every pavement multiple times because you lack real transportation to go anywhere else and spending every bit of spare change you can get on xeroxes of your resume or trips to the laundrette so you can try to look presentable for interviews you are never granted… and then discuss with me how productive all your comfortable leisure time is?
“Is there a way in relative comfort to effect social change?”
Od course not. The “relative comfort” people are generally talking about comes with the price tag of human misery and should be the sorts of social changes you would be working to eliminate in the first place.
I know a guy, dyed-in-the-wool capitalist of the Ayn Rand variety… was a day trader back in the 90’s and still makes a killing with short term penny stocks (low investment, high reward seems to be his mantra). Spends every waking moment either trying to satisfy his insatiable appetites or spouting off some new self-help paradigm to combat his perpetual low esteem and ennui. I talked to him about the Buddha suggesting that desire and attachment inevitably lead to suffering. So he asks me “How am I supposed to know when I am being ruled by my desires or when I just want something?” Completely misses the point.
I’m sorry, jm, but your question strongly reminds me of something this guy might ask. “How can we make sacrifices without actually having to give anything up?” Maybe I’m being harsh here. I honestly feel I have nothing left to lose, but I’m saying flatly that I could give a shit about “relative comfort” anymore. Part of me relishes the schadenfreude of watching hothouse flowers who see the need for sacrifice but can’t bear to lose their standard of living wither once it is taken from them. Dosteovsky talked about these guys from his time in the gulags; they ranted vociferously about the need for change but would then rat out all their friends to the guards in exchange for a little tobacco.
Who has ever effected social change that could not bear to part with their “relative comfort”…? Was Ghandi great because he couldn’t make it an evening without a hot meal? Did Stephen Biko or the Dalai Lama ever deliver a speech about the basic right for movies-on-demand? What great change has ever come to pass without some measure of privation?
And, you know, something? The more I think about it, that is the whole basis of conservatism. Hero worship and the inability to voluntarily pay their own dues. They acknowledge that sacrifices must be made… by someone less comfortable than they are.

Posted by: Monolycus | Sep 7 2005 7:49 utc | 81

Meanwhile a Saudi Prince has expressed his confidence in Murdoch’s leadership by increasing his stake in the New Corp.
Link here
Same guy who got slammed by Guliani after he returned the check for $10 mil donation to the 9/11 fund. Interesting character, the Prince, I wonder what his take is on FOX’s extreme dislike for people in Kaffiyahs!
Max

Posted by: Max Andersen | Sep 7 2005 8:19 utc | 82

Correction, that would be “The News Corp”.
Max

Posted by: Max Andersen | Sep 7 2005 8:21 utc | 83

Very, very well put, Mono… the inability to voluntarily pay their own dues. It’s true that the moderate man seems to understand this concept of fair exchange. So the extremists are the wealthy who actually believe that theft, not just avoidance of paying up, are vital to their existence. It’s pathological and why should it threaten us so much? Why can’t they have their riches while we find a route so far away from their grasp that we are safe? Why can’t we take our little pile of nuts and live in peace? I know you believe that they prey upon us, hunt us wherever we are, but there must be a way to evade their tentacles. Annihilating them is impossible since they always reappear.
I only want to diminish their perceived power, which I was able to do before this administration. Maybe I will again, though it seems now that I am engaged in the collective resistance as a result and may be unwilling to forgo the involvement.
And maybe this is good.
I think comfort, especially warmth, as Annie said, is too basic a need to think of really doing without. We can try all kinds of ascetic rituals but I fear the drive toward comfort will triumph. Without comfort and safety established we can’t go on to greater concentric rings. Maybe one important thing to be aware of is just what we are exchanging and with whom to guarantee this.

Posted by: jm | Sep 7 2005 8:32 utc | 84

The US will never leave Iraq. What do they care about what happens in the sticks? If people want to be poor and stone women to death, they dont give a flying f. They only need to keep superior military power, a hold on a puppet Guvmint, and control of resources. That they can do. It will become easier once some Islamist Gvmt. is in place (the US can join with the corrupt Iraqi elite and the fundamentalists to screw everyone else over.)

Posted by: Noisette | Sep 7 2005 12:40 utc | 85

theodir
i will repeat it – on a scale of horrors – saddam is ver far down the line – absolutely no different in kind or depth from a whole series of autocrats. the totalised opinion of him is not substantiated by facts. even the question of the gassing of kurds is far from clear. he dealt with opposition in a way that is standar operating procedure & frankly i’m sick of the bad guy narratives that we’ve been sold since the womb. whomever it is convenient to hate. he is certainly not a slaughterer in the model of the apartheid south africa – that went in for massacre at every possible level & you give that fuck a nobel peace prize
annamissed – – surveys, statiistics – the whole ‘electoral’ process in iraq is of course a farce & shouldn’t be taken to be a sign of anything – it reflects nothing – it is happening in emptiness. what is real is what is happening on the ground & what can be understood from what is happening on the ground that neither shia sunni or christian believe in it at all & are preferring the armed struggle – either directly or being the sea of people for the guerrilla to swim in
the puppet govt of iraq make the thieus or the diems of the corrupt saigon elite seem like serious politicians

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Sep 8 2005 0:11 utc | 86

@Rg:
i will repeat it – on a scale of horrors – saddam is ver far down the line .
Well, he probably doesn’t make the top ten in the 20th century, if you just count the losers.
If you count the “winners”, he probably doesn’t make the TOP TWENTY.
Course the winners never have the chance to strut and fret their hour upon the Nuremberg stage.
Just trying to bring some historical balance here.

Posted by: Groucho | Sep 8 2005 2:35 utc | 87

R’giap,
I know it was unintentional, but you almost sound like a Saddam apologist. Who questions the gassing of the Kurds? Are you talking Halabja? That’s beyond question. You also seem to be comparing him favourably to the current puppet regime, again with a illogical analogy to Vietnam.

Posted by: theodor | Sep 8 2005 5:15 utc | 88

Yikes! This thread is like the everready bunny.
theodor-
. Of course the US created Saddam and nurtured Baathism for all the usual reasons–but does that not make it doubly incumbent upon US to get rid of him?
The US, or any other country, does not have the right to interfere with another countries internal politcs. We DO have the right to not support him with weapons, as we were doing. We don’t have the right, or moral authority, to be policmen and judge to the world. It reeks. And it only serves the interest of the rapacious ruling elites.
I know it sounds restrictive, “But what if someone is killing all his people?,” kind of stuff. But, if you look behind those atrocious situations, you always find larger Imperial interests arming, supplying, aiding and abetting. Rwanda is a case in point: The US armed and trained Kigame at the School of the Americas, and set the process in motion to end french hegemony in the region, in favor of American interests
But the propaganda system is so good, you will never hear what is really going on. The best informed of us knows a pitance of what is really going on. But, yes, the world is currently composed of several large crime families, with many smaller crime families allied beneath them, and the rest of the world, the poor and disenfranchised, the Hutus and Tutsis of the world, they represent mere obstacles to greater theft and exploitation.
P.S. The CIA itself issued a repot calling into question the gassing of the Kurds, but that was when it was in US interests to support Saddam. It is generally agreed that whatever happened, happened during a time a war, when atrocities tend to happen. It was not a singular event.

Posted by: Malooga | Sep 8 2005 14:06 utc | 89

theodor
i refuse to enter into this years badguy contest – established by the us state dept soometime in the cold war. saddam hussein – is no more or less brutal than a videla, a somoza or a pinochet. & these criminals were all backed by money & arms by that same state dept
& halajba is not beyond interrogation. there are serious observors who are very unclear on this question
& yes the current stooges who represent the puppet govt are indeed like their vietnamese predecessors dime or thieu. that is self interested gangster neither representing a real political force nor a voice of their people
the resistance in iraq is the voice of the people
the only way for an imperialism to stop meddling in the affairs of other countries is for it to be isolated or defeated

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Sep 9 2005 1:18 utc | 90

R’giap,
To the point as usual. I think we can leave it there.

Posted by: theodor | Sep 9 2005 2:15 utc | 91

Not quite.
Malooga,well put. But I shall return…

Posted by: theodor | Sep 9 2005 2:19 utc | 92

thyeodor
as always, in comradely conversation – knowing that on the fundamental questions – there is not an ocean that seperates us but on the contrary – those things which the tougher call life we have shaped into the same swords of struggle
your book taught me great deal in an area where i am only familiar with virilio/baudrillard
& i think we both share the concerns of malooga & others here that the rapacious & idiot policies of this presidency do not lay the groundwork for a more impoverished world politicall for your children
as i have said here – i see through my work here with exiles the real face of u s imperial policy & it remains very ugly indeed
that policy tries to rob the world of the real riches but i believe even deep in my melancholy – that the people remain the most precious, of all
avec tendresse et force

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Sep 9 2005 2:53 utc | 93

to keep it going, a little late but theres this.

Posted by: anna missed | Sep 9 2005 9:22 utc | 94

a taste from above:
The U.S. Air Force’s senior officer, Gen. John Jumper, stated U.S. warplanes would remain in Iraq to fight resistance forces and protect the American-installed regime “more or less indefinitely.” Jumper’s bombshell went largely unnoticed due to Hurricane Katrina.
Gen. Jumper let the cat out of the bag. While President George Bush hints at eventual troop withdrawals, the Pentagon is busy building four major, permanent air bases in Iraq that will require heavy infantry protection.
Jumper’s revelation confirms what this column has long said: The Pentagon plans to copy Imperial Britain’s method of ruling oil-rich Iraq. In the 1920s, the British cobbled together Iraq from three disparate Ottoman provinces to control newly-found oil fields in Kurdistan and along the Iranian border.

Posted by: anna missed | Sep 9 2005 9:25 utc | 95

The Pentagon plans to copy Imperial Britain’s method of ruling oil-rich Iraq.
This gives me cause for hope. Their lack of creativity and experience, attempting to copy some long gone situation, their primitive grabbing desperation, their pustules of stupidity housed in their archaic brains, could very well be the seeds of their demise. And then we could reroute and buy the oil. If there’s any money anywhere.

Posted by: jm | Sep 9 2005 10:45 utc | 96

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