Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
August 3, 2005
What Is To Be Done?

by FlashHarry

Since I first ran into blogs circa 4/2004 at Billmon’s, I have been intrigued by the idea of using a comments or chat room type format to address specific problems and hopefully come up with solutions.

On the recent WB: Sucker Pitch thread here, DeAnander linked to a great piece by Progressive Review‘s Sam Smith: "Things to Do in the Bad Times".

Smith presents concrete suggestions for developing a serious progressive movement that can also influence and/or dominate the Democratic Party, and more importantly, win elections.

I would especially enjoy hearing from my good friend rgiap and others who have experience in developing political and social consciousness. Hopefully we have others here who also know how to turn ’em out on election day.

If you choose to participate in this thread, please be somewhat civil. Leave the corn pone and grits, snarko-Marxism, pole axes, chain guns, and Renaissance poisons at the door.

And if you think there is nothing to be done, remember that 60s saying attributed to Eldridge Cleaver:

IF YOU ARE NOT PART OF THE SOLUTION, YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM!

So please read Sam Smith and comment here: THINGS TO DO
IN THE BAD TIMES

Comments

Bernhard, DeAnander, and FlashHarry: Thank you. This is what I’ve been looking for.

Posted by: beq | Aug 3 2005 12:12 utc | 1

We’re looking forward to reading comments on this thread. Thank you Flash Harry. We’ll start by printing copies of Things to Do in Bad Times and distributing them tomorrow night at our meeting.

Posted by: jd | Aug 3 2005 12:55 utc | 2

I believe the phrase was, “If you are not part of the revolution, you’re part of the problem” and it was Stokely Carmichael who coined it.
Anyway, CAFTA, a little ad hominem. Can I hear an amen? Let’s bring it on home….
A friend of mine worked in the Peace Corps in Central America during the 1970’s. A great guy, and avowed fan of Castro’s social engineering, he chose creation of a poultry business as his goal for the village he found himself in.
Rallying the maize farmers, chicken ranchers and campesanos, they built a chicken factory, unique in the day, where maize was brought to feed the chickens, manure was shoveled to feed the maize, and the chickens efficiently processed to feed the people … and generate precious cash.
So my friend was easy to revisit his mountain village a year ago. But when he returned, he was glum and dour. Here’s what he found …
The village was terribly impoverished. Land use was poor, once vibrant fields near unproductive. The chicken factory? A rusted hulk. The farmers? Gone to El Norte looking for work to send back to their struggling families. A desparate village of women and children.
And the cause? Global warming? Drought and hurricane? Failure of communal economics?
None of the above.
Seems some time prior to his visit, Tyson Chicken had discovered, to its dismay, that Americans don’t like dark meat chicken. With restrictions on feeding meat offal to cattle going into place behind the BSE scandal, Tyson had a problem. A whole mountain of chicken thighs problem.
The solution? Tyson sold freezer vans full of IQF dark meat chicken thighs to independent dealers. The dealers truck those freezer vans south and spread out across Central America, even to my friend’s remote mountain village.
The village chicken collective was doomed. The Tyson chicken was dumped far below the local cost to produce their own whole, organic chicken. The factory-farmed, arsenic and antibiotic-soaked dark meat, like Lucas’s Dark Force, completely wiped out the farmer’s collective.
With no market for their chicken, the farmers lost all their moneyh. With no market for their maize, the farmers had to compete with El Norte agribusiness factory farms. With no protective tariffs or anti-dumping laws, they had nothing.
The entire village, instantly bankrupt. All the men in the village, instantly migra, slave labor in El Norte, never to see their families again.
And that’s why you hear people say CAFTA is just the New South, slavery as usual.
And now, maybe a little, you understand why.
And with a little wisdom and foresight, you can connect the dots. We’ll all soon be slaves too.
There, your moment of Zen for the day.

Posted by: lash marks | Aug 3 2005 14:46 utc | 3

Oh, the solution? I’m sorry …
Half-page push-poll ads in daily newspapers, those that aren’t controlled by monopolists:
1. Do you enjoy having low-cost computers, appliances and cell phones in your life?
Would you still enjoy them if you lost
your manufacturing job, since those items
are now manufactured exclusively in China?
2. Do you enjoy having low-cost software,
movies, music and vidoes entertainment?
Would you still enjoy them if you lost
your IT or talent job, since those arts
are all being outsourced to overseas
and consolidated by monopolistic media?
3. Do you enjoy low-cost foods and drinks?
Would you still enjoy them if you lost
your family farm to the agribusiness
consolidators and monopolistic wreckers?
4. Do you think you can survive globalization
and free trade by inventing some new service
industry job for yourself, or going to work
for the government in some make-work program?
5. Do you understand that unemployment statistics only represent the current *rate* of layoffs, not the huge number of people laid off, some for years now, unable to find any work locally, or anywhere in their state, or nationally.
6. Do you know what the term “migra” means?
Have you ever worked as a “piece worker” or
a “home industry” worker? Do you know what
the term “road warrior” means, or “1099”?
7. Do you understand why those brave folks in
the hijacked plane over Pennsylvania said in
their cell phone messages, “We’re going to
storm the cockpit … here we go!!!!!!!!!!”
Storm the f–king cockpit! Globalization and
Free Trade are just another words for, nothing
left to lose! We need another Boston Tea
Party, dumping Chinese dark plastic, and then a march on WADC against Repub deficit spending, and Congressional complicity in corporate socialism.
Or, you can learn to pick lettuce in Salinas.
Your choice.

Posted by: lash marks | Aug 3 2005 15:22 utc | 4

Here’s something interesting going on and a take on Hackett:
LINK
@Lash:
I read also that Mexico has become a basket case because of NAFTA.
@JD:
And here is an excellent article on the enemy and why he is so good framing the argument:
WHAT IS CONSERVATISM…
Congrats again to DeAnander for dragging this one back to the bar without the aid of a 10 ton winch.

Posted by: FlashHarry | Aug 3 2005 15:25 utc | 5

Smith’s article reiterates points that have been made here before.
Jargon does not speak to the lady at the register in the grocery store. Americans can relate to progressive ideas, but to speak in terms of class consciousness or imperialism as the last throes of capitalism would cause fear and alarm…not toward the govt, but toward the person raising those terms because we have a sixty year history of negative campaigning against such issues.
But, talking about the unfairness of the way in which companies treat people is something everyone can relate to at the sticky end of the lollipop. Talking about the hypocrisy of the Republicans, who want govt off their backs but are now running the biggest deficit EVER, and much of it due to money that goes to Cheney’s stock portfolio speaks to people. Talking about Bush’s desire to go into Iraq to get back at Saddam b/c Saddam wanted to kill his daddy (a common thought among people who work in factories, or did, where I am) is an opportunity to ask if the govt is the right place for Bush to carry out a vendetta at the expense of national security and the lives of American soldiers.
also, it’s important for those who call themselves progressives to give credit to the legislators when they do vote for things that help the poor and middle class…and the dems do have a better record of this than the repubs.
we are in a two party electoral system, like it or not, so at the local level, you either need to be a candidate or find someone who wants to be a candidate who shares your principles and provide cash support, foot support (as in going door-to-door to increase name recognition) and basic help like stuffing envelopes, etc.
one of the big issues that I think the dems have missed out on, but that is very viable at the local level is energy independence from the middle east. creating jobs locally by moving to renewables at the local level, making sure laws are passed that, for instance, let people avg. energy consumption (and let their meters run backwards) are things that people can relate to at the local level, including the issue of farmers supplying fuel, converting cars for biofuel…none of these are grand ideological issues, but these are the sorts of jobs, local relations, and food on the table issues that matter to people.
where I leave there is a group that lobbies the state govt for just such issues (energy avging) and acts as a watchdog for profiteering from energy providers, etc.
I think a great, positive theme which, again, can be done at the local level, with the cooperation of local bizzes and local politicians and local voters is to associate progress with a move to a 21st century energy policy. It can be presented as patriotic (freedom from m.e. oil), it can be presented as empowering for local citizens and bizzes, it can be presented as, unfortunately, (snark) something the republicans will not deal with because they are in the pocket of the oil cos.
And, like it or not, these issues resonate more with a variety of people if they are not presented by someone who looks like he or she went down into a bomb shelter in Haight-Ashbury in the sixties and has just climbed out into the bright blinking sun of thirty years of republican rule.
The republicans started at the local level on school boards, stuffing envelopes and calling voters from local pol headquarters, supporting local candidates, even if they are not your perfect choice, and forming coalitions that, as Smith notes, do not have to pass an ideological test to be part of your play group.
while rgiap has much to say about his life in the pursuit of decency toward a cross-section of humanity, his experience is not with local level American politics, and if you really want to make a difference, you have to get down into the trenches and win a place on the school board to counter the helmet-haired republican who wants to teach creationism in the public schools. And you have to counter his or her arguments with common sense, and facts about declining math and science scores, and American competitiveness in the world.
most Americans could not tell you who Fred Hampton was, but they can surely tell you the story of Adam and Eve. Most Americans can find ways to see conservation as an American issue if it’s presented as patriotism, not jingoism, and can make those small changes (florescents for incandescents, for instance, that start to lead to bigger changes…and the idea of owning a part of their own energy co-op, for instance, is another way to appeal, in the same way that farmers have co-ops.
the local farmer’s market is very successful because it’s a fun event to attend, it has good food available that meets a basic need, there are a variety of people buying and selling, and there’s even entertainment provided by local musicians.
in addition, the market puts money into the community, provides organic farmers a market, provides a meeting space for people that’s not “just” about politics, but allows local politicians and others (living minimum wage coaltion, anti-Iraq war groups, sustainability groups, etc. a place to also set up a table and talk to people.
that, to me, is one of the most successful ways to reach out beyond the core of yellow dogs, or red dogs, whatever color you politics may be.
additionally, dems or progressives have to take the security fears of Americans seriously. One way, of course, is to put them into perspective…the probability of a terrorist attack vs a car wreck…but use that fear in a positive way, in local actions mentioned above, and, at the same time, to, as an not pissed off aside, mention that it’s sad that Bush didn’t seem to be able to get past his own fear, and look at the mess he’s made…and now we have to work to fix it where we are.

Posted by: fauxreal | Aug 3 2005 15:46 utc | 6

My proposal is to open a hole in the ozone over the theo-con glaciers.
Glacier A: working class
First step: Bush the anti-christ and pharisee “preachers”. Every day should be “Sermon on the Mount” day and Reveren Moon day and it won’t take much work with Revelations to make it fit the BFEE.
Second step: Destroy the gay agenda theme by relentless attack on secret republican gay leaders. DickCheney’s lesbian daughter got $100K by the republican party to round up the gay vote and money, Ken Melhman, 40 year old “bachelor” won’t talk about whether he is gay or not – your contributions to the Republican party pay him $250,000/year, Grover norquist, …
Third step: Your job went to Chinese Communists and you paid for it.

Posted by: citizen k | Aug 3 2005 15:50 utc | 7

This is good stuff and helpful to me. I’m printing out Sam Smith’s article for distribution.
One part that resonates is:
>Don’t be too pure.< >It’s okay to be a saint but don’t expect many others to follow you into self-deprivation, moral perfection, etc. Be happy if someone votes the right way, writes the letter you want or shows up for meetings.< I didn't support Paul Hackett. We have a similar candidate in our area who will be running solely on his "service in Iraq." Also a lawyer. So some of us don't support every endorsed Democratic candidate, others do but all of us are united in our ability to work together and use the strengths of our members. So it seems the purists are the ones who demand perfection pressuring us by making us feel like we are not loyal Americans because we don't support every program, every candidate the Democratic party offers. Our goal is to keep our dissenters active and inspired. You can't do by demanding loyalty oaths. Purists we ain't.

Posted by: jd | Aug 3 2005 16:24 utc | 8

Here’s a book review that might be useful…the book that might be useful is Peoplehood.

Posted by: fauxreal | Aug 3 2005 16:37 utc | 9

try, try again…
Here’s a book review that might be useful…the book that might be useful is Peoplehood.

Posted by: fauxreal | Aug 3 2005 16:38 utc | 10

try, try again…
…and preview this time…
sorry.
Here’s a book review that might be useful…the book that might be useful is Peoplehood.

Posted by: fauxreal | Aug 3 2005 16:39 utc | 11

more ammo to fire back at repuke lies:
Democrats are more successful at smaller govt.
Democrats are better at creating jobs, having a healthy economy.
(make sure you click through on the stats on unemployment, GDP, etc. and have hard copies to share with your neighbors and friends and people at the farmer’s mkt who come to your table.)
Wall Street knows this…why does the Wall Street Journal lie? Are Republicans like the kid tries to hoard all the crayons in the box?
Even CNN’s Moneyline knows this.
…and does someone have a chart showing American taxpayers bailing out Republicans again and again and again? I’m thinking about Hoover, and BCCI, and the S&L Bush scandal, and,
it’s important to undo the lie about Reagan’s tax cuts…which, btw, he actually had to raise taxes because “trickle down” was a drought.
disproportionately go to the wealthy…and get put back on the middle class anyway in the form of tax increases at the state and local levels, in higher tuitions at state colleges, at greater concentration and hoarding (and thus in less money in circulation throughout society).
…and yes, start the rumor that Bush is, in reality, the antichrist. Remember, the devil quoted scripture. Quote Amos…forgot the verse, about people who try to bring on the end of time are cursed by god. Ask what happened to the Jesus of the beatitudes. Ask if Jesus would go to a homeless shelter, or to Pat Robertson’s mansion if he were looking for a place in this world today.

Posted by: fauxreal | Aug 3 2005 18:10 utc | 12

I’m too busy to post now, but wanted to weigh in w/a Thanks to FlashHarry for the thread. I hope this will be the beginning of regular threads by you.
Also, I’m delighted Sam is finally getting play here. I tried to talk him into posting here or starting a blog last yr. or year before. He’s finally started a commenting system. I’ve never used blogger – do you have to use a real email address w/it? What do barflies think about commenting more on his threads? (Go to prorev.com -> click on “scroll down to undernews page” for his blog.)
Since my discussion w/Monolycus, I’ve been thinking about how much energy/time is frittered away w/the misdirection of the Party blogs & their adherents, who pretend the issue is the Repugs. Why I think it’s essential to ignore the party & their blogs & focus on local battles:
1) No “Dem” Senator opposed the Patriot Act. That’s the end of the Constitution. Their first task should have been mobilizing us to fight that – w/out question.
2) Howard Dean, in his capacity as Head of Party, has declared war on women, travelling the country to recruit anti-choice candidates. They are free to recruit anti-abortion candidates. They are not free to recruit anti-choice candidates. The party blogs are all male-supremacist – not even discussing this. This party has to go down in flames. This is such an easy issue, as they don’t even have to take on vested financial interests.
3) The issue is Wall Street. Even Pravda-on-the-Hudson didn’t mince words the other day, even in their Headline: How Wall Street Wrecked United’s Pension”. The party blogs that I saw didn’t even take this up. This economic war on us won’t stop until we start fighting it locally, issue by issue. They’re getting away w/everything. No one is raising a squeak. Did the blogs mobilize us to fight the Energy Bill’s provision that allows Wall Street to steal our utility companies – hell no.
So, we need new blogs & a local focus. Vote or not, as you wish – decide that the night before – but we need to put our energy elsewhere – neither the Party nor it’s new hip blogs concerned w/us in our bedrooms, our wallets, or our politcal rights. Ridiculing the Repugs was essential for awhile; that’s a luxury now. They’re united in all essential issues against us.

Posted by: jj | Aug 3 2005 18:19 utc | 13

Oops – correction to last graph – omitted verb – should read “neither the Party nor it’s new hip blogs are concerned…”

Posted by: jj | Aug 3 2005 18:21 utc | 14

To me this comes down to one question:
– Can this be done with the Democratic party or does it need a new platform?
My suggestion is a new platform. It will not win double digit votes, but it will win enough votes do draw the Democratic Party back to its socialdemocratic roots.
With the DLC and Clintonians ruling, the Democrats have no chance to beat the Repubs.

Posted by: b | Aug 3 2005 20:33 utc | 15

Here is a very nice story about Vermont congressman Bernie Sanders.
Something and someone to emulate

Posted by: dan of steele | Aug 3 2005 20:42 utc | 16

Seems like this might be another re-hash, but I’m game.
It seems to me, no matter what your personal threshold of “I’m not going to take it anymore” happens to be, there are simply too many issues of offense to keep track of in our political landscape. And every new scandal makes us forget all about the previous one. We need to stop being distracted by the shiny object du jour and start addressing things.
How do we agree about what is necessary to address and in which order…? I propose that, at the moment, we should use our empowerment as the yardstick. If a particular bit of legislation inhibits us from knowing about or correcting all other objectionable bits of legislation, then that should be dealt with first.
No remotely unbiased analysis has concluded that electronic voting is secure from fraud.
Any other ideas anyone might have are moot unless or until we can make the democratic process transparent and safe from the kinds of tampering we have already seen. Everything else needs to go on to the back burner until this is fixed or there is simply no point to any of our ideas. My “ideal” form of government is minimalist and primarily local, but none of us will get any of our “ideals” if we are shut out from participating in the legislative process.
To begin with, the issue I think we need to correct before we can effectively address any other is the issue of making ourselves heard and we can not afford to become distracted from this by having low-hanging, but inconsequential, fruit dangled in front of us.
Any suggestions about how to go about fixing this problem when the threat of “voting those bastards outta office” has already lost any teeth it might have had? Some have suggested tax resistance as a way to get the point across… but I already see two problems with this. The first is that the Feds care not a whit about how overcrowded our prisons become, and secondly, when they have been hard up for cash in the past, they just borrow it from foreign powers. No, I don’t think we are going to win this (or any) issue by bleeding them. Now that so many shackles have been welded on to us via the USAPATRIOT Act and general GWOT psychology, I have some very grave doubts that any actions performed inside the system have any chance to change the system anymore. Not that I am arguing for storming the Bastille… I’m just saying.

Posted by: Monolycus | Aug 3 2005 21:35 utc | 17

i like arianna’s line about throwing a tent over the beltway and fumigating. it’s time to go ORKIN on their asses…

Posted by: b real | Aug 3 2005 21:48 utc | 18

Andrew sullivan says DKos is about to apply Raid to the DLC maggots in 30 days (when the current crop changes to flies, I guess), but suggests the application will not be efficacious:
LINK
Anyone know what’s up with that?
@Mono:
Can’t argue with that logic.
@B:
Agree totally re DLC and the Clintons. Also the Bidens and Libermans.
And unfortunately it might come to a third party and 50 years of building.
I Like Billmon’s Corleone analogy, though. I think enough of the Democratic base is so pissed off at the DLC clowns and clones, that 30% or more would stay away from a national election if urged to do so.
I think we have a lot of power in the equation, and should seriously consider making the DNC “an offer they can’t lightly ignore”.
@ Citizen K:
On those glaciers now, wouldn’t it be simpler to use explosives and bury them under it?

Posted by: FlashHarry | Aug 3 2005 22:19 utc | 19

Monolycus;
You’re right this is an important issue, maybe the most important.
I didn’t support Paul Hackett, got some people mad at me for that but I believe that may have been another stolen election.
Several of our members have been working on the issue of electronic voting machines. They hosted a public forum that drew about 200 people recently. The speakers were very good.
The best and most knowledgeable one was Rebecca Mercuri.
http://www.notablesoftware.com/evote.html
The group is having some success on the state and local level challenging the counties purchase of electronic voting equipment.
Anyone interested in the subject should check out Rebecca’s web site.
jj
We definitely need new blogs. We have discussions about issues on our e mail site that go on for days. People really need to discuss the issues.
Something Bernie Sanders understands and is so successful at encouraging his constituency to do.

Posted by: jd | Aug 3 2005 22:35 utc | 20

Flash: Glaciers are big.
jd: The means cannot justify the failure to accomplish any ends.

Posted by: citizen k | Aug 4 2005 2:04 utc | 21

I like the concept of this post. And Sam Smith has a few good ideas. But his reliance on the Democratic Party to effect change is downright naive. Even the #1 “Progessive” he cites, FDR, only made the changes that he did because the Great Depression created the very real possibility that people would rise up against the American Experiment en masse, and Henry Wallace and others were breathing down his neck. Rich politicians only change their policies to survive challenges by radical activists: They don’t cede power willingly; it must be wrested from them.
Several things must happen before conditions are ripe for change, but when they are met change will be swift and unstoppable. For gradual change: Clean up the voting process and curb the power of money in politics. These are huge projects that most of the public does not care about at this moment, or see as relevant to them and their Soma supply, so perhaps little will happen until the conditions for large-scale change are met: Things need to (and will) get MUCH worse than they are now. Certainly the employment spectrum in this country will deteriorate. But what the other precipitating events are exactly for large scale change is hard to predict.
To see what might happen we need to step back a little here. The Civil Rights leaders Smith quotes were from about 45 years ago. What will the world be like 45 years from now, in 2050–assuming it still exists? For one, Peak Oil WILL weigh upon us heavily, whatever debates might range now about its onset date. Global Warming, ditto. Collapse of portions of the ecological order, probably Ocean life first, almost certainly. Runaway damage from Genetic Engineering, fish farming, and biowarfare research, if not actual attacks, highly probable. Increasing amounts of the earth will become uninhabitable, or far less desirable to live upon, as areas of southern Iraq,the former Yugoslavia, and others, suffering fom D.U. pollution and skyrocketting cancer rates, already are.
We will be relying heavily upon Nuclear Power in the near future; the laws have already been passed and the plans have been made. Why Nuclear? Is it the best for life on Earth, or, as a highly centralized mode of generation, is it best for the health of the corporations of the earth? Pushing our aging nuclear plants (most already functioning past design limits) will, almost certainly, result in a Chernobyl-like accident here in the U.S.
By 2050, more than one out of every two people will contract cancer, and lifespans will be declining. They have already peaked, and increasing poverty caused by global chaos will lower the span for the poor and disenfranchised, radiation and chemicals will lower the span for the rich. Of course, medical progress will help the lucky 1% of the earth live longer–although at increasing expense, and intervention, for diminishing payback.
Resource wars will proliferate around the globe, as the U.S., China, and, to a lesser extent, Europe, India and Russia vie for control of many dwindling resources like oil, water, and essential minerals and metals. The odds of additional terror attacks in this climate over the next 45 years–probably 100%.
As limits to growth are reached there will almost certainly be large scale decimations of human populations, especially in Africa. We will also see increasing rates of extinction in the animal kingdom.
The difference from 45 years ago? We have now entered late-stage capitalism, whose imperative of ever increasing growth almost insures these dour predictions manifest. What consideration is being given for designing and implementing an economic and business model that does not depend on ever increasing growth, but functions just as well in a state of controlled decline. Are the DEMOCRATS talking about this????? Come on……
Controlled Growth is an oxymoron, as current species extinction, climate change, desertification, etc., attest to. Yes, Science will come up with many great inventions in the next 45 years, many in the service of the very rich, who control the funding stream. But will Science magically save us from all of the effects of this dire scenario? And, as we are talking about little more than a generation from now, do you want to bet your children and grandchildren’s, and indeed all of mankind’s, future that it will? Those who think that science will resolve all of this and more are almost as foolish in their faith as those that believe we will all be swept up into Heaven in the Rapture. Think about it.
***************
Most of what I have been talking about relates to the “Get a Plan” section of THINGS TO DO.
So, what are my suggestions? It will be very difficult to effect change as long as the ULTRA-rich, who control much of the agenda, continue doing better, which they are, and possibly will be even 45 years from now, though with less stability. Perhaps one or two million people in this country understand what I am talking about here and don’t believe the NPR lullabies about how great things are, despite one or two bad apples.
Everyone simply has to commit to educating and changing one person’s mind. That will double the base. Then work on changing one more mind: It gets harder each cycle as we have to dig deeper into wingnut loam, but eight cycles (that is, only eight people’s minds per person in this, the ULTIMATE pyramid scheme) and we have a super-majority. Remember most people are sheep, and as more and more people wake up, more will blindly follow.
The alternative is to wake up one day and realize that deficits no longer matter, and now, perversely like Oscar Wilde, we find all our evenings free. Forever.

Posted by: Malooga | Aug 4 2005 4:58 utc | 22

Well Malooga I am more or less of your way of thinking. I wish I were not.
The answer to “what is to be done” seems to depend on how we think things will be in a decade or so. If we think the proverbial manure is going to hit the proverbial air-mover, then our best bet is to hunker down and dig in to a small to mid-size community in a fairly un-ruined part of the country where decent rainfall may continue, and focus on community building, local agriculture, etc. — preparing ourselves for dislocation, balkanisation, breakdown of long haul transport networks etc. This is the “Post Carbon Institute” way of thinking, also the Ecostery theory: pick your ground carefully and plan to survive on it even if the larger social structures melt down.
If we think the structures of “law and order” (it gets increasingly difficult for me to recite this phrase with a straight face) are going to persist, then engaging in the ritual battles of electoral politics seems worthwhile, as those remain connected to the levers of control and we may be able to alter our trajectory towards at least a softer landing, if not avoid the crash altogether.
In other words I think there are not so much pessimists and optimists, as pessimists about X vs pessimists about Y. A pessimist about local activism and third parties and all options outside the 2-party state, is by definition an optimist about the continuing power, validity and relevance of the state apparatus and its ability to control the large territory of the US. An optimist about local activism and contraction, etc. is likely to be a pessimist about larger social structures, with a lack of faith that political parties and fed-level government will actually mean much or wield much power after “the Crash.” Each person may view the other as either a gooey optimist or a Chicken Little pessimist 🙂

Posted by: DeAnander | Aug 4 2005 5:12 utc | 23

most ‘progressive’ yanks want to take the easy way out and hope the dems will make it better. good luck!
when the rich are battling the rich, the rich win again.
its class warfare. a party that is really for the people is necessary, if only to bring progressive issues to the forefront.
good luck, from the great northern communist canuckistan.:-)

Posted by: lenin’s ghost | Aug 4 2005 5:46 utc | 24

@ Deanander
Interesting remarks (as always) on optimism and pessimism. Put me among the optimists about local activism and third (or fourth or fifth) parties.
@ lenin’s ghost
I agree, although over the next few years a return
to the Democrats is about the best that can be hoped for
(as depressing as that maybe with the likes of Holy Joe
and Hill-Billary leading the Dems).

Posted by: Hannah K. O’Luthon | Aug 4 2005 6:18 utc | 25

I just had an epiphany. I’m going to post the rudiments of it now and then go to sleep and let my mind re-think it in dreamstate.
2008 is going to be a major political fight in the REPUBLICAN primary, as the theo-neo-cons go up agains the “traditional” (i.e. cut taxes cut spending, get govt. OUT of our lives, etc.) Republicans.
This could mean that they might end up with a 3rd party candidate in the final Presidential race. They would be VERY likely to do this if the “progressives” ALSO had a 3rd party alternative to the no-backbone Democrats.
What would 4 major candidates in the race mean if it looked like this:
1. Republican candidate with backing of the theo-neo-con administration and RNC.
2. Right wing “traditional” Republican.
3. Democrat supported by DNC and DNLC.
4. Progressive alternative a la Bernie Sanders.
NOW, suddenly, 30% could win the Popular vote. If the popularly elected candidate was not chossen by the Congress (they wouldn’t be — not a chance in hell) then there would be MASSIVE pressure to change the process.
THAT would be worth it all.
It’s an idea, though I’m too tired to know if it’s a GOOD idea.
Charlie L
Portland, OR

Posted by: Charlie L | Aug 4 2005 7:08 utc | 26

@ Deanander
While I do lean towards activism, I’m not arguing wholly against against electoral politics. I just think that one needs to consciously keep away from the personality analyses, the “he said, she said” games, believing the official propaganda line (“Spreading Democracy”) in any way, shape or form, and bemoaning the performance of elected Democrats as if it were an endless Blues song (“My baby done left me”)–a level of consciousness development and psychological insight that most so-called liberal democratic blogs seem eternally and forlornly stuck at, as counterproductive.
Watch the money–as if it were your own, which it is, in a sense–carefully. This is not a three card monty game. Watch the money, not what they earnestly avow, and make political decisions accordingly. If you smell a rat, it is a rat. Don’t moan; dump ’em, disgrace ’em, (if you’re Karl Rove, destroy ’em), and move on.
I also believe that you will have better luck with conservatives, even Kool Aid addicts, by moving the argument away from social issues and into more existential ones as I have delineated above. Helen Caldicott tells a story of arguing with some important General in the Pentagon and getting nowhere, just official propaganda. Then she spied a picture of the General’s grandchildren on his desk and took the conversation to the level of his hopes and candid expectations for them: this broke the communication through to a whole different level. His doubts and fears were as strong as her’s, despite the fact that the government was following “his” agenda.
I believe that never before in Human History have so many powerful people been so pessimistic about the ramifications of their actions as today, despite what you see on their faces. They just don’t have a language (economic, financial, emotional, etc.) that they can discuss this in. Also, discussing the fact that the empire has no answers is about as socially acceptable as discussing the fact that the emperor has no clothes. They must admit that everything they have strived for is nugatory.
The rest of the populace can be divided into two groups: those who know or sense where we are heading, but the fear and powerlessness is so great that they block it out. They can be worked with slowly, gently, with acceptance that there are others who have faced this fear and not flipped out–who they can talk to, and who will be there to support them.
The second group is those who have no sense of the state the world is in. Everything is O.K. They inhabit in a capitalist fugue, eternally seeking happiness through aquiring more, never seeing the consequences of their actions. This is tough, but I believe slow, very slow education can work. (“You like your cell phone, well, let me tell you about a very valuable mineral that is necessary for their manufacture, and how many people have been killed over it”.)
I also believe that most people’s defenses are like a cell wall. And most people have something that has gone wrong in their life, they’ve lost their job, someone in their family is sick, they’re taking care of an elderly parent, a disabled child, whatever; and that the government, such as it is, has failed them on this. This, then, is the lock and like an enzymatic reaction, your proper response, over time, to how their need can be met is the key to changing that person’s politics.
Noam Chomsky talks about how essential the atomizing of any sense of people’s solidarity is to the success of the neo-liberal agenda. Conversely, any reestabllishment of connection between people, any understanding of a sense of commonality of interests represents a weakening of support for the neo-liberal agenda.

Posted by: Malooga | Aug 4 2005 7:24 utc | 27

@ Deanander
vis-a-vis optimism/pessimism, and people’s political positions, there is this article by Tom Hayden, which I feel is worthy enough of its own discussion thread.
Co-opting the Radical Instinct, A Warning
I think that you all might want to know something about how the other side sees you. There’s a study done by the Cattlemen’s Society. Now, you may think they’re an irrelevant, marginal group, but they’re quite crucial to the frontier mentality that built this great country on the backs of the native people. They are a big special interest group, and they pay good money to find out who these activists are. A few years ago they did a study. The question was: How do we contain and stop this direct action movement? It wasn’t called the direct action movement then; it was the civil disobedience movement, the protesters, the environmentalists, all the rabble that they were concerned about at the time.
They created a chart. At one end were the radicals, defined as people who believe that the system itself has to be changed. A radical would he anybody who understands that globalization is a system with many fronts and many issues. Their prescription for the radicals was to isolate and discredit them, not because there was something inherently radical in their behavior, but because they were pointing out that it was a system. So, the first goal, they said, was to discredit the radical analysis.
The second group on the spectrum were the idealists. These are people who want to give the system a chance. They believe in the same social justice values that the radicals do, but they’re idealistic; they don’t have a cold, cynical view that nothing is possible under the system. So, it’s extremely important, the study said, that the idealists don’t become radicals. In order to keep this from happening, you raise the stakes of radicalism so that people are afraid to become radical, because they then get smeared, discredited, and worse. You have to give the idealists occasional victories in order to keep their hope in the system alive.
Third on this continuum came the pragmatists. The pragmatists are former idealists who’ve won some victories, who start to believe that the system works. So, they said, it’s extremely important for the idealists to have victories — not because of justice, but because that way they become pragmatists. And you want the pragmatists to be able to say: See? The system works. Be pragmatic.
And the final part of the spectrum — the culmination of your future, if you follow this plan — is that you can become an opportunist. An opportunist is a former pragmatist. An opportunist, they said, is a pragmatist who gets attracted to the money, the glamour, the status, and the power. And then they had a whole workshop on how this could be done. How to discredit the radicals, cultivate the idealists, make them pragmatists, and then find the opportunists among the pragmatists. And there — you have the story of my generation, the 60s generation.
You have millions of people who have radical instincts but little expectation, who have lowered their expectation. You have millions of people who are former idealists, who have become pragmatists. And you have plenty of people who are opportunists. My question is: How can you break this cycle? It’s the most important cycle to break. You can’t break the cycle of poverty; you can’t break the cycle of violence; you can’t break the cycle of corporate expansion; you can’t break the cycle of the arms race; you can’t break the cycle of imprisonment, if you don’t break the cycle by which radicals are isolated, idealists are turned into pragmatists, and pragmatists into opportunists. I have not found an answer to this problem, but I’m here to tell you it is the problem. And you are its answer.

Posted by: Malooga | Aug 4 2005 7:33 utc | 28

Excellent dialog between Deanander and Malooga. I find it interesting that in a way there although both of you are surely rationalists from the tips of your toes to the top of your crania, your critiques have a proto-religious flavor: the after Peak Oil era as
the end-of-days, and doubts that science (alone) can
provide a way out of the impending impasse, and the desire for a renewed sense of community and solidarity.

I wonder if that’s the likely shape of the future.
Things may well go along with small incremental improvements
as a result of slow reconfigurations forced on us by
rising energy prices, and the diffusion of technical
and scientific knowledge. It’s true that our dangerous political class could well blunder into an intercontinental cataclysm, and, alas, at present the odds on such an outcome are depressingly high, but if we can return to only moderately bad policies, it may be that Heilbronner’s “Great Ascent” can continue, even if “growth” is gradually redefined to a more Deananderian model.

Consumerism is indeed vapid, but it seems to be popular across cultures and national boundaries. Is it the environmentalist’s version of “Original sin”?

Posted by: Hannah K. O’Luthon | Aug 4 2005 9:21 utc | 29

Growth comes in many varieties. Fast, slow, excessive, appropriate. Cancer kills because of its out of control growth, but lichens on a rock survive beautifully with slow sustained growth.
It’s impossible to say for sure whether this whole planetary system will adjust as it goes. Like it usually does. Life is really just a series of adjustments. A series of experiments.
Consumption will have to slow down and probably will. That’s one of the most important things we can do… outside of voting machines, political theory, political popularity contests, terrified wars, etc.
If each one of us gradually reduces our own consumption, we will have hope. But we have to face the inner void that leads to this. This ill fated attempt to fill every orifice of our bodies with something all the time. I have always been a minimalist and it is a relief. If we all just look at the petroleum products we use in one day, it is astounding. And most of us do it without consciousness.
That’s what we need the most. Awareness. Not making others aware, but being living proof of the advantages, and others will automatically follow. There is a chance that the people of the earth will develop a working relationship with it. We can’t tell now. We are too immersed in the present.
Probably the best change comes slowly, naturally, and in increments. While destruction is always occurring, so is productive growth. It is megalomaniacal to even think that man can destroy the earth. Maybe himself, but that’s unlikely.
There isn’t really all that much to do or fear. Just keep living the best way possible on an individual basis. That’s the only way to effect fundamental change that will last.
Many corporations will probably explode and self destruct soon from the excessive growth and the out of control competition. I think they are failing now way more than we know. And I see many, many new small businesses open and thrive in my town all the time.
I also don’t really think that an idealist changes into the ultimate opportunist. Their idealism was probably suspect from the beginning. The radicals and all probably persist in a continuum, and in the end, political theory doesn’t make or break the human race. Some instinctive sense of survival probably does. We’re just riding it all.
We can’t control it, and why should we? It’s a massive flux of life, so we’d better get used to it, and forge our own little path within it.

Posted by: jm | Aug 4 2005 10:54 utc | 30

WHERE HACKETT’S MONEY CAME FROM IN OHIO
In his campaign, Hackett used television ads to emphasize his service in Iraq, including images of Bush speaking about the value of military service, while in interviews with the news media he hammered the president and the war. His words against Bush and the war produced strong grass-roots support, and yesterday liberal bloggers said they helped raise $500,000 for Hackett, the bulk of his $750,000 campaign funds.
“We raised a ton of money for Hackett,” said Bob Brigham of the Swing State Project site ( http://www.swingstateproject.com ), who served as “coordinator of the liberal blogosphere” for the Hackett campaign.
Brigham criticized the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee (DCCC) for not giving Hackett early financial support. “They came in late, and it makes them look irrelevant in everyone’s eyes,” he said.
DCCC Executive Director John Lapp issued a statement defending the committee. Saying the DCCC would like to fund every House race, he said: “Resources are not infinite. That is why MyDD, the Daily Kos, and the larger blogosphere are so important. You are critical in the effort to expand the playing field well above and beyond the 30 or 40 districts typically in play.”
Tangential to this discussion perhaps, but interesting .

Posted by: FlashHarry | Aug 4 2005 11:37 utc | 31

jd: The means cannot justify the failure to accomplish any ends.
Citizen k: I started out saying I was pissing in the wind. As you pointed out its better than sitting on my ass doing nothing.

Posted by: jd | Aug 4 2005 12:55 utc | 32

Some instinctive sense of survival probably does. (remain).
Individually yes, collectivelly no. We have already killed off half of all the species in the ocean. How many more species do we kill before man DECIDES it’s now magically time for balance. We ARE out of control.
Derrick Jensen compares the environment to a person: We are lopping off his fingers and toes and saying “It doesn’t matter; he can get along fine.” Now we are preparing to amputate some major limbs. Of course, the person is already blind….
HKO is right: things will slowly evolve, improve. But, along the way, there will be major precipices we will fall off, only to arrive at a higher state of entropy for most, a lower state of order. The elite are still protected.
9-11 was one such step. It represents, not the growth of state and non-state terror, for that has existed since the birth of states, but the failure of the state to keep these “messy” items from the public’s consciousness. Clinton and Albright, as picadors in the bullfight, did a marvelous job of weakening Iraq and killing Iraqis, away from the general public’s awareness. But, the ruling elite panicked because of peak oil, felt they could no longer bide their time, play the waiting game for Iraq to fall into western hands. Also China had just signed contracts with Hussein and Iraqi oil was no longer going to be dollar denominated. This was the first crisis that the public saw. There will be many more as the resource wars heat up.
But remember: Wohlstetter, the mentor of Wolfowitz and the neo-con’s, believed that the public should NEVER know what the elite was doing, or why, in governing. In this latest dust-up they have failed miserably. This alone indicates failure and panic.
One reason that I am so pessimistic about the possibility for change is the control that the military-industrial complex exerts on the economy. It has long been policy to site military facilities in every congressional district so that every congressman is beholden for his job.
Too many people are dependent on the continued existence of this military Leviathan for their livlihood, their ideology. I look at all economic activity on a scale of ecological sustainability, and militarism is the lowest of the low. Consumption of non-renewables (I believe the U.S. military alone consumes as much oil as the seventh largest nation on the planet), environmental pollution, radioactive waste, bomblets which will kill and maim for generations, the spewing of hate and prejudice: on all levels this is pure destruction, the anti-life principle in progress. It is sheer, slow suicide for the planet, piece by piece, bit by bit, niche by niche.
But the enormity of the event needed to have people see the destructivness of militarism, I don’t even want to fathom. I leave it to you to speculate.
Idealists talk about running the planet based on the “Precautionary Principle.” It sounds great in theory. But that is not how things are run, and have historically been run, by humans, nations, corporations. The way things have been run is this: A resource is identified, and then exploited until it is virtually finished, at least in an economic sense. Then it is abandoned and and new one is found. This behavior, I term “The Catastrophic Principle” of human affairs, and until the people of the planet are as aware of this principle and the effects of human behavior on the biosphere, as they are of Michael Jackson’s dick and nose, I give little chance for 95% of our species.
What can we do? It seems quaint to me to consume as little as possible when my neighbor drives a boat, waters her lawn 24/7, puts out 8 pails of trash weekly compared to my one, doesn’t recycle, and her child sits amid welter of plastic that would make The Graduate proud. But it’s the best that I can do. Still, having lived in the third world, I am well aware of how people that have less than us, and cannot aspire to our wealth, nontheless still aspire to our profligacy and are blind to environmental concepts. And I often find myself lusting after the newest laptop or whatever gizmo as much as anyone. We can at least aspire towards a more bio-friendly technology.
And we can agree not to have biological children. One life here in the developed world has the environmental impact of 20 in the undeveloped.
And continue to educate, educate, educate. I have found that over the years, I have become much more vocal in explaining how the world works with my neighbors, friends, family etc. So, some of them think I’m a nutcase. The seed of “doubt of life as it is” and “awareness of how it could be” has been planted. One day it will take root.

Posted by: Malooga | Aug 4 2005 14:44 utc | 33

How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.

Posted by: beq | Aug 4 2005 18:36 utc | 34

beq
Devour the asshole first.

Posted by: jd | Aug 4 2005 20:34 utc | 35

Okay, is this just an intellectual exercise? I ask only because I can wallow in my disempowerment well enough on my own. I was under the impression that this thread was designed to outline a plan of action, but now I’m beginning to think I was mistaken.
As far as the optimism/pessimism thing goes… sure. The world is not going to be the same place it was when we were kids. But we can stand around and watch people who are motivated enough to act flush our world in its entirety down the toilet or we can use our faculties and energies to salvage the most of what we can. It’s too late to save it all and there’s no point going on about that… we get it already. But our despair and fatalism is going to lose the whole tamale for us. The same man (Heraklitos of Ephesos)who informs us that we can’t step into the same river twice also tells us that conflict is the father of all of all things. We have plenty of conflict. Was the point of this discussion simply to predict how bad that conflict will roll over our supine bodies or was it to determine how we can minimise the damage?
I said earlier that it is encumbent upon us to pick an issue and not allow our efforts to be diluted by trying to address every new distraction at once. I picked electoral fraud. It’s not my “pet issue”, but for the reasons I outlined earlier, I think it is a good place to start. If there’s something more pressing that others would rather focus on, then let me know what it is so we can go about the task of addressing and correcting it.
The progressive movement (if you want to call it that) has already wasted five years of the third millennium by its fatalism and its failure to remain focused on a single issue for more than a week. A jigsaw puzzle is not solved by trying to make all the pieces fit together simultaneously. That approach just leads us to the conclusion that jigsaw puzzles are impossible to solve. Patience and prioritization indicate otherwise. (Or, as beq says above, the journey of a thousand miles begins with eating a single elephant.)
Seriously, first things first. I made my pick and until someone proposes a more urgent issue to address… how can we correct the blatant electoral fraud? How was Diebold sold to the people in the first place… I don’t recall anyone suggesting it was imperative to make this switch unless it was a reaction to the Floridian “dangling chad” circus (As cynical as I am, I would hate to think the whole idea of tiny bits of perforated paper were part of a deliberate conspiracy… but it doesn’t matter if it was accidental or deliberate. This is where we are at.) However it was done, we have to “unsell” the people on it. And now.
Suggestions…?

Posted by: Monolycus | Aug 4 2005 20:47 utc | 36

@Mono:
I have been heartened by what I have read here . This thread has been going two days–for two days folks have concentrated on suggesting solutions, instead of bitching about problems.
Jesus Christ on a popsickle stick! Rome wasn’t built in a day! And I haven’t even been elected unanimously as head of the central committee, and party secretary yet.(Down, Beria–our time will come!).
Seriously, with respect to issues, voting irregularites are either #1 or #2 with me. I think that I could argue plausibly that Democratic whimpdom has allowed this issue to be swept almost into the dustbin of history. For me whimpdom might be #1.
I suggest letting this thread run another day, and then you open one on defining and prioritizing issues/ or the election issue.

Posted by: FlashHarry | Aug 4 2005 22:02 utc | 37

While it’s true that this thread was stated to be about concrete solutions to specific problems, I don’t think we can help but look at the larger picture. So many of us here are philosophically inclined.
And that is one of the side effects of progressivism…intelligent, individualistic free thinking people with minds that are esaily set off on fascinating tangents. As a matter of fact, I have been highly impressed with the ability to focus on this site. people stay on the subject way more than the other places I visit.
It’s the nature of human thought. To wander, since the imagination is always acting in tandem with the linear. And we often circle back.
If the subject is that important people will automatically stay fixated. Trying to hard can cause problems too. And I have been less than impressed with most of the “experts” advice.
I think the basic point here is to end any notion of victimization and get in touch with our power, personal and collective, and roll into some sort of action. The details will work themselves out. We’ve been reeling in shock and as a result of the blows from the right, we have gained immunity and strength, I believe. The natural tendency among liberals to debate will remain, but we can move ahead steadily while the argument continues.
It comes down to division of labor. Some are idea people, some are organizers, some are laborers, some are PR lovers, and some do nothing in particular. If each of us finds his natural niche, with the enthusiasm of the group a lot can be accomplished. Solutions present themselves as the plot unfolds. And individuals can work on the specific problems that interest them the most.
As far as being out of control, we never were IN control. We are the creations of the earth and are at the mercy of a larger organism. The key might be the end to the illusion that we do control the outcome. The collective is only as good as its smallest link and that’s where our best bet is. With ourselves and the individuals we touch in our daily lives. I have yet to experience any human being who was able to predict the future except by happenstance. I don’t even know why we try. It’s the amazing unpredictability of life that excites me to no end. There is an equal amount of good going on as bad. We are free to tap into whatever we want.
As Malooga said so well:
And we can agree not to have biological children. One life here in the developed world has the environmental impact of 20 in the undeveloped.
And continue to educate, educate, educate. I have found that over the years, I have become much more vocal in explaining how the world works with my neighbors, friends, family etc. So, some of them think I’m a nutcase. The seed of “doubt of life as it is” and “awareness of how it could be” has been planted. One day it will take root
.
I, of course, chose this option and didn’t have children. But you can also consider the collective instinct that says we will be all right since they chose even with knowledge to keep bringing new life on board. It amazes me.

Posted by: jm | Aug 4 2005 23:04 utc | 38

I think the basic point here is to end any notion of victimization and get in touch with our power, personal and collective, and roll into some sort of action. The details will work themselves out.
Solutions present themselves as the plot unfolds. And individuals can work on the specific problems that interest them the most.
This is how I see things working out too, jm.

Posted by: FlashHarry | Aug 4 2005 23:28 utc | 39

You folks have a large task ahead, as do all of us on this beautiful blue marble. I wish you well.
If you don’t eliminate electronic voting you’ll never enjoy the democracy we’re all being sold. Any chance of doing anything, much less reversing “The Catastrophic Principle”, and moving forward is lost without this. You have to go back to the future – paper ballots counted and scrutinized by members of all parties.
Could not a group of patriotic Ohioans ask for, or perform, an independant audit? You’re concerned that the margin of victory wasn’t wider. Prove this one phony and many might question the validity of the last two national erections and call for tough reforms.
Of course, this could be achieved and people might still vote for someone like the current poster boy for CRIS – Cranial-Rectal Inversion Syndrome. And I imagine if there isn’t a third choice of party, this will be your lot regardless.
Then you have to put forward people that will eliminate the personhood of the corporation, followed by influence peddling, er lobbying…

Posted by: gmac | Aug 4 2005 23:30 utc | 40

One thing every homeowner can do is get their house largely off the grid.

Posted by: jj | Aug 5 2005 0:42 utc | 41

@Malooga, we seem to have reached similar conclusions based on similar forays through the available evidence. I too have concluded that demand reduction is the only way forward. and this seems to me to be not a rejection of rationalism or science, but the logical consequence of applying rationalism and science (basic physics, energy math, the laws of thermo, entropy, etc) to our present situation. it takes a certain number of joules (or watts or BTUs, pick your unit of choice) per hour to push an airplane through the air, and the fuel cannot usurp more than a certain proportion of the payload (by weight or volume) before air travel becomes commercially infeasible. therefore there will not be coal powered or battery powered planes, any more than there are planes powered by Stirling engines (the mass/power ratio is too high). dirigibles perhaps, but not what we now know as “planes”. so imagining that, e.g. cheap commercial air travel will continue into the future as the fossil fuel reserves diminish and the cost of extraction rises — counting on “science” to “come up with something” and to magically assure that things will always be the same or better tomorrow than they were yesterday — to me whiffs of cargo cult. one thing science cannot do is trump physics 🙂
there is an attitude to Science (with a cap S!) in the US which disturbs me with its somewhat cultish undertones, a blind faith that “Science” (whatever that is) will miraculously solve all problems, pull rabbits out of hats, multiply the loaves and fishes, etc. but the laws of thermo are not mocked. TANSTAAFL.
simultaneously with this “enculting” of Science comes a corruption of the scientific academy that is vast in scale and terrifying in detail. from two sides — BushCo’s overbearing government applying political censorship and suppression/harassment, and pressure/suborning/bribery from corporate interests — strong forces are being applied to warp and corrupt the empirical ethic in the academy and the lab. and this at a moment when many people place a childlike and unquestioning faith in the scientific establishment. it is imho a nasty historical confluence. a healthy scientific community would be an enormous resource in the difficult times we face — we have serious reality-based problems which require serious empirical efforts as well as rigorous description, quantitative analysis, etc. if we are to tackle them. but a scientific community succumbing to government-induced Lysenkoism and corporate-induced forgery, falsification of results, etc., is worse than useless.
Stirling Newberry has recently been writing about the end of the Extractive Era. his terminology is loose, he takes wild leaps occasionally, but I am very interested in his characterisation of (essentially) the two political parties in the US as the Party of Physical Resource Extraction (Rethugs) and the Party of Information Enclosure (the Demopublicans). I have to read his 2 part essay again (you have to follow some links to get to Part 1 from the URL above) in order to figure out what I really think of it, but it seems pretty clear to me that the future of resource extraction and the extractive/liquidator approach is brief. And either Western Industrial Civ will end when the extractive era ends, or it will have to change in ways that are hard to foresee from here, in order not to go down with the sinking ship of liquidator economics. Newberry’s conclusions about the consequences for speed in commerce, information enclosure, etc. fascinate me but I have to read it a few more times. he doesn’t always write as clearly as one would like.
my own personal hot list for “What’s To Be Done” starts with reform of the electoral process. two items: (1) open source software and paper trails for all electronic voting machines (plus an ongoing competition with large cash prizes for cracking any voting machine). (2) IRV for all elections, local/regional/national.
after that comes revocation of the legal personhood of corporations, and reform of election funding, PACs, etc. and some kind of major reform/investigation/overhaul of the financial sector which is about as rotten now as it was in the teens of the previous century. retooling away from the militarised perpetual-war economy would also help.
after that: oh hell, I dunno. if we could even get that far the political landscape would have changed so much that my priorities might be radically different from what I envision today! everything would be different. it is hard to come up with a lot of detailed agenda after initial talking points that presuppose such enormous social/political changes.

Posted by: DeAnander | Aug 5 2005 1:06 utc | 42

(Grrr… tried to send and then deleted by mistake. Have to retype. Hate that!)
@Flash Harry
“I suggest letting this thread run another day, and then you open one on defining and prioritizing issues/ or the election issue.”
I thought opening a thread was a “by the grace of Bernhard” kind of thing and not something any old user could do. Anyway, I wasn’t specifically rebuking anyone, I just wanted to make a cautionary statement and to ascertain whether we were really looking at a goal line here or just having a group spleen-ventage. Sorry if I came across as impatient; it’s just my level of enthusiasm over the past five years has gotten a bit manic… it’s hard to get excited anymore by a progressive who talks a good game and the disappointments are starting to chafe.
@jm
“I don’t think we can help but look at the larger picture.
Of course we’d be idiots if we didn’t… but the big picture is never static and ushers don’t tap us on the shoulder to let us know when we’re done looking. Of course we should keep an eye on the larger picture… but if we keep two eyes on it, we tend to get hypnotised and never move away.
@gmac
“Could not a group of patriotic Ohioans ask for, or perform, an independant audit? You’re concerned that the margin of victory wasn’t wider. Prove this one phony and many might question the validity of the last two national erections and call for tough reforms.”
Actually, I’m not so sure about this. For example, I can indicate very strongly that insider trading with biotech companies who have stem-cell research divisions has gone on due to volume data during the month of July. This is not “irrefutable proof”, however, and even if it were, a private citizen is not the SEC and can do nothing about it. I don’t know if an independent electoral audit would have any authority, and I don’t know if it is possible to find the “proof” of fraud that is legally actionable. If it were that simple, we’d all be Patrick Fitzgerald.
But we can promulgate the strong indicators of fraud until this becomes a political hot-button issue.
“Then you have to put forward people that will eliminate the personhood of the corporation, followed by influence peddling, er lobbying…
Of course, of course… I still have an eye on the big picture, but I am also chewing a mouthful of elephant here.
@DeA
“there is an attitude to Science (with a cap S!) in the US which disturbs me with its somewhat cultish undertones, a blind faith that “Science” (whatever that is) will miraculously solve all problems, pull rabbits out of hats, multiply the loaves and fishes, etc. but the laws of thermo are not mocked. TANSTAAFL.”
This phenomenon of people who don’t understand the purview and limitations of science making a cult out of it has been described by the confusing term of scientism. It is annoying and counterproductive, but (not surprisingly) many people in the scientific community promote it for various reasons. My problem has been with people in the field of archaeology who do everything they can to invoke ideas of Indiana Jones in people’s minds (Yeah, yeah, Doctor Hawass… we friggin’ get it already. Lose the hat.) I think that your average geneticist deep down really wants people to think of them as Harry Potter.
Part of it is the counterproductive proprietary and secretive nature of commercial scientific endeavors, and part of it is the deliberate promotion of hocus-pocus by people who realised halfway through their PhD. programs that understanding how things work really just sucks the fun out of it.
“my own personal hot list for “What’s To Be Done” starts with reform of the electoral process. two items: (1) open source software and paper trails for all electronic voting machines (plus an ongoing competition with large cash prizes for cracking any voting machine). (2) IRV for all elections, local/regional/national.”
I’m sorry… having a dim moment. What does “IRV” stand for…?

Posted by: Monolycus | Aug 5 2005 2:12 utc | 43

The urgent situation is the existence of a block of 40% of citizens who believe in fascism. Let’s say 5% are in the true wack-nut fringe, and 20% are in the Dobson group or equivalents and the rest are just sympathizers. All these utopian plans and complex agendas fracture in the presence of a brown-shirt movement made up of those who advocate and those who will applaud a cleansing mass murder. Like the Yiddish poets who endlessly debated the architecture of utopia in smoke filled cafes in Warsaw, we whistle on about biofueld futures of organic gardening while Turner’s Diaries are passed out in the alleys and the advantages of a “unified presidency” are extolled in the suites. What is to be done, urgently, is to break the resonance of the fascist wave, to sow seeds of doubt in the zombies before the zombie masters plant us.

Posted by: citizen k | Aug 5 2005 2:13 utc | 44

Flash, would you keep this thread open thru the weekend so we can have more time to think through responses, Please.
I’m finally getting around to reading “After the Empire: The Breakdown of the American Order” by Emmanuel Todd. American barflies really Must read it ‘cuz he argues that Am. becoming a military predator ‘cuz it’s lost its capacity as a productive nation – ‘cuz all of our productive capacity was shipped abroad so that Wall Street could make megaprofits.
So, I’m thinking along the lines of the doable rather than the ideological. The parties have a vested interest in distracting us & magnifying small issues. I want to set that aside & all the party bullshit politics & focus – on The Upside – on Making America Productive Again – no it is Not Acceptable for GM to sink; on the downside it is not acceptable for the Elites to turn America into a Terror State – eliminating Democracy & squandering the budget on fear & war.
Very Briefly…On the Upside, taking account of Reality, thank you, we focus on 2 Initiatives dealing w/Peak Oil/Energy. We want a 10 yr. plan to:
1)Take homes off the Grid by ~80% or so. Finance that by state low interest loans, the interest will be deductible completely from federal taxes. The Feds are stealing all the money now from the states – we have to get that back. It’s totally unacceptable.
2) Rebuild GM by insisting they immediately license the technology that’s all ready to go for cars run on compressed air. Robt. Reich is working w/industry now to develop a plan for national medical care so that the Corps. don’t have to foot the bill. Pensions however are non-negotiable & must be properly regulated.
They can start building factories across America to produce these cars. They can shove their dislike for licensing the technology of others up their ass.
We use this blog to bring in guest analysts to share w/us the feasibility of this & many other things as well. I’m thinking of two very conservative economists – Paul Craig Roberts, who is the only person to have anything intelligent to say about the economic wreckage of America & perhaps Morgan REynolds. We just ask FlashHarry as co-ordinator of this thread to email these guys & ask Sir, can you work out some numbers on this for us. If not who would you recommend. Given that they are both very Very Conservative, I think they might enjoy being invited to participate in a forum on a very left-liberal blog.
Downside: We have to rip apart the paradigm the fascists have used to destroy our country & make us live in fear – along w/the rest of the world. America Will Be Creative Again. We will not live in fear. If a Chief Economist in BabyBu$h’s Admin. can realize that 911 was probably an inside job, if Lt. Col(ret) K. Kwiatkowski can write about it, we can & must look at it. I suggest that you ask Prof. Reynolds if he’ll post a thread here w/his thoughts on that every 1-3 wks. as convenient for him. We are not going to save America by cowardice.
Media:
Blog – I’ve suggested an addition to our concept of the Bar. (i’m not suggesting a free for all here; but that specialists across the spectrum should be invited to weigh in as needed.)
PBS/Film/Video
Robt. Greenwald, etc. need to do a film on Wall Street & their Profit Margins. That’s what’s driving this nightmare. In a local paper the Editor resigned ‘cuz he was going to have to fire so many people. Why? ‘Cuz the goddamn co. demanded exorbitant profits, min. 25%. That’s bullshit. I have no prob. w/a fair rate of return, but that’s got to end. Film-makers have to get on this. In this context then we can talk about bringing America’s manufacturing base back, as it was only destroyed to indulge Wall Street’s greed. If we do not make America productive again, it’s simply over for our country. That’s why I say, read AFter the Empire & let’s focus here. Other things will come in along the way.
PBS/POV/HBO can do series on Peak Oil, the huge waste in the Am. housing sector ‘cuz it was mostly built after WWII when US reigned supreme so oil was cheap. The comparison of the energy utilization by buildings in America built since ’45 & those of Europe is mind boggling. And a 2nd prog. on the Auto, Peak Oil & the Air Car.
We are getting sucked into the Radical Right Agenda….
That’s my $.02 for today. What do others, incl. DeA think?

Posted by: jj | Aug 5 2005 2:35 utc | 45

Did you notice, I’m really toying around w/the idea of this “what’s to be done thread” evolving into a round-table. We ask P.C.Roberts about getting GM to build factories to build the Air Car. Bring in R. Reich to discuss his medical plan, then Roberts says these are the problems – ok, who can address that, bring them in; we need to build the movement. There are so many unemployed in Ohio. Can the great organizers around the Free Press organize a cavalcade or air cars around his state & Michigan to get people revved up. They sit in @GM. Who has the $$ to import some demos. Who knows a film-maker who can put together a quick film. Bring them in…That kind of thing…Problem solving, bringing in people who can get things done…Get America Moving Again…out of the military into the factories…from the ground up…set aside our differences – I can’t tell you how exploited I feel w/the way both parties are handling things…if I hear one more word about Abortion or Religion, I”m going to scream…we all know they will not save America…
Okay, off my soap box…
Hope some barflies are in tune w/me on this…Yes, people need to work on the election machinery, but if we don’t do this there won’t be anyone to vote for anyway…if we just say fuck it & start doing things, the politicians will be forced to follow. So Let’s Lead rather than whine.

Posted by: jj | Aug 5 2005 2:47 utc | 46

My question is how are you gonna do that Citizen k?
Same question to you Monolycus. You said, “I can wallow in my disempowerment…” and then laid out a plan for regaining power. I agree that eliminating electoral fraud is the first priority; I don’t think that will solve the problem though, since the enemy is much deeper than we allow ourselves to imagine.
The self correcting system of govt in Washington was set up for a rather simple and low population colony. It doesn’t work any more. Congress has become a corrupt boyz club that in no way represents the people, and the Executive – we can see what that has become. Lets face it, the only way to fix it is to burn it and start again from the ground up.
So try and have some patience; let the forces work in their own time – we can see already that the reptiles have gotten in over their heads.
I’m just sayin, as smart as you are you don’t have the power to fix it but it will happen on its own. Keep up the fight but don’t get arrogant. We are in the middle of an event larger than any of us; it is guided by larger forces too.

Posted by: rapt | Aug 5 2005 3:10 utc | 47

@Mono:
In terms of those greater than mortals, Bernhard is forgiving.
He has tolerated me around here for 2 years. Just click on About This Site. There’s an Email address there.

Posted by: FlashHarry | Aug 5 2005 3:11 utc | 48

Since the beginning of large scale human societies there has been a natural force that protected the ugly social structure of violence and domination. This force is the necessity of slavery in one form or another. Slavery acts like gravity, pulling down all the other layers of society on top of it, setting a pattern, master-slave, child-parent, ruler-ruled. The success of industry eventually made slavery unnecessary and it was as if gravity become weaker and weaker and all things solid crumbled and began to float into air. Something that was noticed in the 1960s by everyone from Sartre to popular tracts like the forgotten “Greening of America” – and before in such works as Marx’s utoptian early writings. But free-fall is scary psychologically for everyone, threatening both to the powerful and to those whose status and worth is defined by the layers of humanity below them. So from the hysteria of WWI, through Hitler, Sam Huntington, the neo-cons and Dobsons and so on, the “defenders of order” seek either to destroy industrial civilization or to generate some centrifigal for that will replace the lost natural gravity. This centrifigal force is called “fascism” and it requires a vast expenditure of energy to start it moving and keep it going. The Limbaughs and Hannitys and Foxes and think tanks that deplore social security and Dobsons and Family Focus and TV ministers organize their victims to fall in lock step and push the wheel as hard as possible and their influence permeates all society. So what is to be done? What is the task of the opposition? It’s a simple and painful task: to disrupt the centrifuge, to seek to wake or disturb the zombies who are hypnotized by its whirling, to introduce dissonance into the march. That’s why I advocate things like hammering “George Bush never goes to church, George Bush’s daughters close down fancy bars and dry hump their boyfriends in public, the most powerful republican Grover Norquist is a spider a truly spooky person who has no family who works for Saudi billionaires, the head of the republican party is a homosexual man, a homosexual male prostitute stays overnight in the white house, George Bush was really born in Connecticut where he went to prep school and became a cheerleader at Yale, the chief fundraiser for the California republican party turned out to be a Chinese spy who was having an adulterous affair with an FBI agent, the Washington Times is owned by Sun Moon who calls himself the Messiah…. and so on – why is this being hidden from you” and so on. The goal should be to break the synchronized march needed to spin the centrifuge.

Posted by: citizen k | Aug 5 2005 3:13 utc | 49

rapt: Advertising, man.

Posted by: citizen k | Aug 5 2005 3:24 utc | 50

@JJ:
Like you thoughts. This thread should work as B’s system has worked before: the thread will exist in archives forever, and probably on this page for another day or so.

Posted by: FlashHarry | Aug 5 2005 4:17 utc | 51

And you can click on it from archives. and revive it.

Posted by: FlashHarry | Aug 5 2005 4:21 utc | 52

As most people have tossed their hat in the ring on this I thought I may as well join in although since this post is useless as a how to on retaking the existing party from the careerists if an open thread had been available I would have preferred to post it there.
Since the end of WW2 the so called democratic nations around the world have almost universally fallen into a two party system.
The roots of the parties are almost all the same. There is a right wing party that once adhered to a philosophy called liberalism in some parts of the world, conservatism in others. Although the philosophies should have been quite seperate, force from the growth of left wing parties following the great depression of the 20’s and 30’s meant that the only ‘liberal’ tendencies these parties still adhered too were those that left corporate interests largely unfettered. Likewise conservatism was stictly about maintaining the status quo for the benefit of the wealthy. The traditional liberal view of personal freedom became subsumed to the needs of controlling the population in order to further business interests. This change occurred as the power base of the party moved from many ‘small business people’ to a few large corporations.
Meanwhile on the left a similar consolodation occurred as diverse ‘socialist’ groups usually aligned with large manual unskilled unions, merged with the ‘egalitarians’ from the old craft unions to allegedly sustain a political power base that would unite in opposition to the right. In reality the development of these large one size fits all unions created a structure removed from the ordinary member and really only served to make union officials jobs easier.
Just as the petit bourgois merchants found their contribution to the conservative forces unwanted and un-needed; those politically committed people from the left became disenchanted with the compromises made by their successful broad church political party. By the ’70s in many countries the union movement had consolidated into a few very large unions which had an almost incestuous relationship with the political organisation that had been set up to protect the original labour movement’s members. Unions supplied the money, and the political organisation provided a very rewarding career path for ambitious people prepared to work within that organisation.
This was a mirror image of what was occurring on the right as the ambitious moved between corporations and the political machine.
The political machines both used organisations regulated by government to ‘spread their seed’ comprised of think tanks, compliant academic institutions, large primary production co-operatives, depositor owned banks and quasi autonomous semi-government organisations, as well as for the conservatives; business advocacy groups and the left; consumer groups, and, environmental organisations.
So much for political history 101 what happened next was predictable to anyone who had studied previous large mass membership organisation that had achieved great power, the Catholic Church is a case in point. As we saw during the priest sex scandals the church hasn’t seen itself as being of it’s congregation for centuries. For the people that run the Catholic church, ‘their’ church is made up of the clergy and the hierachial structure that controls it. It’s assets aren’t people or god, they are buldings, cathedrals, monastries, charities etc. This was what the power structure first sought to defend when it felt threatened by the revelations of sexual abuse.
Similarly countries that have a ‘democratic’ system where the power is in the hands of two parties, one for the left and one for the right have found that the power stucture considers itself and the other members of the ‘club’ to be the priority. When legislation is put through for corporations, conservative parties no longer do it for the cause they do it for money and or favours. Same on the left; unions have to bring something substantial to the party to get any sort of ‘deal’ and considering most of the power structure in unions is in the hands of ambitious main chancers a lot of the deals are about money or turning out the vote in return for political favours later.
Now some people wonder why it is that the ‘left’ isn’t concerned about the situation where money controls the bulk of the power which means that in a toe to toe fight with the right, the right will win as it has more money. This has been particularly obvious since disillusionment set in and unions have lost a lot of their sway (ie dues) in the labour force.
The ‘alleged left wing parties aren’t worried at all. The less members the less ways to have to cut the cake, they are now a ‘brand’ just like Nike. People vote dmeocrat or labour when they feel a ‘love mark’ relationship with the brand. As funding has dried up from the unions, corporate interests have been happy to step in and lend a hand. Why? Firstly because the lefties generally come a bit cheaper than the right partially because they can’t afford to be seen to be too extravagent and secondly because the left has generally enjoyed more popular support it doesn’t require as much marketing to get them over the line. The most important reason is this. Large corporations know exactly the power a monopoly has and that is why they are always trying to create one for themselves. They know damn well that if there was a total monopoly on political power then they would get royally screwed by the politicians. So it’s good business to have an emasculated left around.
The power paradox also explains the continued existence of leftish parties. That is if a measure ‘needs’ to be passed which has a leftish bent to it, getting a rightist political group to enact it means that it will be in place for a long time. When the right behaves as the left the ‘real’ right has no place to go. Similarly when a rightist policy is iniated by the left the chances of successfully opposing this measure are reduced to virtually nil.
People in MoA talk about ‘straightening’ the leftist parties out, but I see no purpose, they are so heavily compromised by hacks that you could never trust anything to really happen, but the big reason is exactly the same as why it would be a bad idea to set up another political party to contest the left.
Remember the Catholic Church up above? Any large organisation that achieves power is going to come to the same end. Now that economic power is in the hands of the few that will be sooner rather than later.
If we want to change the way politics are done we need a new model. A model that is too diffuse and diverse to be efficiently corrupted. Where power can’t be traded because no one person or group has overall power.
Actually the US political system is in some ways better suited to it than other democracies because there has never been absolute party loyalty in the legislature so voters are used to sussing out the individual in spite of the party policy.
The mechanics of bringing this about are similar to any political movement, in that people have to see this work on a small scale before they will endorse it big time. So people interested in their community need to run for school boards and local councils but as independants allied with like minded individuals. Candidates need to make it plain that they see their role as a public service and not a career choice. Of course some bad apples are going to get elected but if voters see that with independent candidates one bad apple doesn’t spoil the barrel they will be more comfortable about taking a chance.
The only commonality in the ‘movement’ is advocacy for independents.
Traditionally independents are seen as loners and it is difficult for them to persuade their constituency that they will be able to achieve much. We need to educate the voters on a philosophy of independent public service. That being non aligned is a strength not a weakness. From where I sit anything else is just gonna be more of the same. Western democracies have citizens who are generally educated sufficiently and self aware enough to individually make decisions which previous generations would have entrusted to the ‘brand’. Labour or Conservative, Democrat or Republican.
Some people are always going to choose to who vote for out of short term self interest but if voters are entrusted with the power to make a genuine choice, they are more likely to adopt a community minded attitude when they cast their vote, a couple of hundred million people voting out of self interest is far more likely to result in the legislature reflecting the will of the individual than the self interest of a couple of hundred confessed millionaires will.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Aug 5 2005 4:48 utc | 53

dd…..you are descibing politics in the UK and the US. many democracies are multi-party, something that would benefit the US a great deal.

Posted by: lenin’s ghost | Aug 5 2005 6:23 utc | 54

It all comes down to business. The country has a population to maintain and business must go on. I agree with jj on the productivity crisis. I think we are in a major transition from the industrial revolution type of structure we had to an entirely different format still to be made manifest. Productivity will have to return in some way.
But I do think the extreme mega corporate structure will self destruct. Or at least here where the markets will decline. I believe will be seeing a lot of franchises closing up shop. Who knows that we won’t have to scramble to provide for ourselves.
In the next few years, I think the failing business practices will weed out the weak ones, and common sense, grounded, slow growth ones will flourish. We are already seeing this in Costco where the profits are going more to the work force and their success keeps growing and even threatening the major monsters. These monsters will eventually devour one another. I think they know this is coming and are grabbing for all they can get now. These businesses simply can’t go on with this kind of abuse of sound business technique.
In the meantime, I think community action and taking full advantage of all the power we have in the states is advisable right now. I would think that this over centralized control is going to lose its grip. So we can prepare. Instead of fruitlessly attacking the monster we can reroute and take positive action in and around the colosseum.
I withdrew all my money from the stock market and invested in local grass roots businesses and I’m doing much better than had I stayed in the big trap.
As we keep our money close and build our alliance in the blogosphere where the potential for fund raising is gigantic, we will have more control over who we elect to do the nuts and bolts work of governance. We also have to understand totally that that is all it is. People hired by us to do specific jobs. This is one of our major hurdles. The psychological concept of power. This needs to be learned, and it can be.
If we run our country properly as a business we will thrive. The elites who founded the nation didn’t expect us to do this. So we have a whole history of letting these people run the show. We’ve never been autonomous or democratic, but circumstance might lead us to that.
If the deeper issues are faced, then the political parties don’t matter that much. There’s room for all ideologies, and also room for some corporate funding and control. We just need more of a balance.
So local successes build confidence and will translate into state policy which will be in accordance with the demographics, and on to whatever scraps are left for the national concerns. I don’t think the inherent character of the country will allow for dictatorial policies nationwide.
There is a lot to do, but there is also a lot to look forward to. One of the very most important things is to pay attention and become more discerning when chosing the people for the jobs of running our government. In this new information age we have no excuse not to do so. The more we extricate ourselves from our infantile dependence on these parental figures, the more there is a chance for a decent government. I think our failures as an electorate are clear now. And probably our electoral problems will right themselves as we become more responsible.
We can’t undo the whole system that got here this way through our whole history, so we have to keep up and see opportunity for improvement in every nook and cranny we can.
BTW jj, a law just got passed that restricts the amount of money the CEO’s can take if the pension fund is not at least 80% full.

Posted by: jm | Aug 5 2005 7:13 utc | 55

The warm currents of pathos and passion which traverse this meandering thread are an unmistakable sign of the fervor burning just beneath the apparently placid patriotic uniformity of American public discourse as sung by its officially sanctioned bards. It is a hopeful sign that there is no official program, no party line, and no oracular vision to unite us except the belief that America can do much better, and that the great task remaining before us, to effect such improvement, is still within our power and in our hands. We can once again achieve a decent respect for the opinions of mankind.

The nodes to be resolved are many and the forces arrayed against liberal governance are powerful, but so too is the hidden groundswell of desire to recapture the fallen and Bush-besmirched banner of American idealism.
None of us expect a possible Democratic victory in 2006 or 2008 to restore a lost paradise: the end of Bushism should, however,be much more than a consecration of the principle that “to the victor belong the spoils”.
What many of us are seeking, I believe, is a little less than a virtual refoundation of the American republic,
a new birth of freedom fostered by an updating of the enlightened ideals of the founding fathers,
and a reformulation of the axioms of Madisonian political wisdom.

It may indeed be, as some have suggested here, that such hopes are forlorn, the evolution of the military-industrial-financial complex may be so far advanced that our society has, so to speak, acquired a political hoof
that forecloses a return to the greater flexibility of separated dactyls suitable for simpler times. But I refuse to accept the eternal persistence of that political dead hand as a working hypothesis: if present institutions
are unresponsive let us challenge, reform or abolish them, not accept their shortcomings as our destiny.

The ascending path toward the neo-constitutional reforms will necessarily be long and difficult. Our
tools for reaching them can only be those of majoritarian consensus. Therefore, I believe, our
first goals should be those of comity rather than polity. Insisting on honesty,openness and frugality in government should be a hallmark of the progressive struggle, and a countersign for detecting possibly unexpected allies.

There is no dearth of issues nor lack of compelling themes. It would be foolish to abandon such resonant
chords as family security, religious freedom, and community pride to the cynical manipulation of our opponents.
It is, rather, our task to embrace and redefine them within what we see as their natural context, that of
cooperation and cohesion rather than competition and constriction. Likewise, such traditional progressive tabus
as isolationism, neutrality, states’ rights and property rights should no longer be liquidated as typically
reactionary shibboleths. Asserting the rights of the individual in the face of predatory corporations and
invasive governments should be but two faces of the progressive coin.

We may hope that across America thousands of streams of local initiative will feed into dozens of regional tributaries to a few mighty progressive rivers, whose gentle but insistent rolling will clean and re-vivify the nation.

Posted by: Hannah K. O’Luthon | Aug 5 2005 9:27 utc | 56

Sorry to be off this thread. Away at a conference this weekend.
My personal solution is media reform. If they don’t hear aboout it, they don’t know it.
Grassroots Radio Conference and Barnraising
P.S. I like these ideas. Can we get an hour of radio out of it?

Posted by: Malooga | Aug 5 2005 10:59 utc | 57

Last night we heard from a member of our group who attended a 3 day workshop sponsored by the local Democratic Party and staffed by trainers from an outfit called “grassroots solutions.”
Several losing Democratic politicans were there celebrating their losses and telling the participants what they had to do to be democratic candidates.
Spend at least 8 hours a day on the phone raising money.
What you think of a candidate is irrelevant. All that matters is that we get Democrats into office.
Do not disuss issues with the voters. Some voters may not agree with you and you could lose their support.
A chart showing the right, the center and the left was shown. Everything to the left is to be ignored. They are a guaranteed voting block.
Don’t bother registering new voters since they may not register as Democrats and we don’t care about the large number of people who don’t vote.
We saw the charts and we looked over the loose leaf book. It was a wake up call and confirmed my worst fears about the Democratic Party.
Meanwhile I see that our Republican friends discuss issues and win elections.
The least depressing part of the evening was the fact that we meet within walking distance of a bar–which we all headed to and stayed until they kicked us out at closing time.
Oh and about electronic voting machines I posted this link before. You should read it.
I saw this woman demonstrate to us how to cheat on electronic machines with paper trails.
http://www.notablesoftware.com/evote.html

Posted by: jd | Aug 5 2005 16:59 utc | 58

TRYING Hard TO BE THE BEST REPUBLICAN THEY CAN BE
David Sirota skewers the DC Democratic leadership.

Posted by: FlashHarry | Aug 5 2005 19:22 utc | 59

Sounds like you had a fun evening JD, esp. the last part.

Posted by: FlashHarry | Aug 5 2005 19:33 utc | 60

While the specifics of Debs political history is very UKUS, I think there are common lines in many countries. The union part as well as the part with career paths is all to visable here in Sweden too, though the unions are still going strong and not loosing members.
Well, power corrupts. What to do about it? Making the individuals more responsible is one way though without efficient means of deposing (and not merely not re-electing) a candidate I doubt it can be efficient enough. Still better then the current system, but in the end they can probably be bought up, even though the companies must identify and buy a lot of single votes in parliament instead of a party.
What I have suggested before (though it might been a while) is looking at Switzerland. Their system of giving the people the right of trying decisions in deciding referendums I think in the long run is a efficient way of staving corruption. If power corrupts why not remove the power?
How to get there in the US? I do not know. I am trying to figure out a way to get there in Sweden (and then EU). Probably different potentials in different states also. And of course, unrigging the voting system is one necessary step, so I guess I end up agreeing with Mono.
I have (as I imagine must of the non-US barflies has) been reading this thread with great interest. This is a subject of outmost importance and one we (if my fellow non-US barflies accept my interpretation) are very powerless to do anything about. If there are anything we can do I imagine I am not the only one who would want to lend a hand, but you (our US barflies) are the ones who might know what to be done and where a hand can be lent. Though it did not lead anywhere (but to more ‘Kerry is french’) I saw the ‘give a euro for Kerry’ as a positive sign of commitment for positive change in the US. Guess they should have started AEPAC instead.

Posted by: A swedish kind of death | Aug 6 2005 10:34 utc | 61

askod,
The state of California has a referendum system for amendments to the state Constitution, and it’s been a slow evolving disaster. The most famous initiative was call Proposition 13, passed back in 1978, which placed a cap on property taxes — the taxes which had been used to pay for basic services. Since then, the ballot initiative has become a primary lobbying target for those seeking either to lock in spending commitments or impose further cuts in taxes for some portion of the population. It’s very difficult to predict what combination of results will emerge from a roster of ballot initiatives.
Parties with competing manifestos (albeit preferably composed of policies more sensible than “find a small country to throw into chaos at great cost to our own treasury”) can’t be lost entire.

Posted by: Jassalasca Jape | Aug 6 2005 12:41 utc | 62

flash
i am sorry i have not contributed here & it is not for want of trying
there are moments the bush cheney have brought that are so painfully dark, so palpably terrifying & yet i am today not on the receiving end of their physical brutality – of their mindless stupidity
the darkness they have created is wholly singular no matter what citizen k or razor or even my friend slothrop want to believe.
i have never ever had the sort of distance that could watche these events from afar – disembodied – i feel them – deeply. i have been writing a poem that i have called -‘falling from/fallujah i am/falling for fallujah’ – i try to communicate what i understand of these events
in the work with communities – its basis is very simple – i listen – i try to help people listen to themselves – then to others. the act of listening – of profound listening for me is a political act
if you use your ears for hearing – the evil fucking lies of the cheney bush junta appear as they are – rationalisations for the cold blooded murder of other people. when you listen, when you really listen you realise how dire our situation is – there will be no return to normal – we have not even begun to go through our darkest days
yet it is my work to construct hope of a material kind – withoutguarantees & offering a world that is both deeply irresponsible & deeply, deeply immoral. i imagine the world would like people like me to work in broad strokes – but in the work here – everything & i mean everythng is in the detail. & that detail is nly possible with an active listening. if i can help make people ware of their own situations in a critical way then they can function in a contingent & contradictory community
i follow fassbinders dictum – that if you are not capable of telling the truth thenat least you should not lie – & this is an essential axis of my work here – to be moving yet fixed – that i can be relied upon – what us old marxists once called, staunch
& that means to be there – to know who & what i am – to fight to know that means in every moment here – if you like to be exemplary without ever hiding from people the very fragility of that exemplarity
but gain this is done – where i see our real possibilities as limited – the extreme right everywhere re taking their veangance personally in every country you can think of & these are murderous swine, these are human filth unimaginable to me 20 years ago & i think there are no limit to the level of depravity & no end to their stupidity
i fear for our world in a very real way & i think i am a relatively cold person but these criminals have forced this heart to do its business with more rigour & less distance
apologise for not offering more

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Aug 7 2005 1:32 utc | 63

& recommend a book of great beauty & wisdom about america
‘the time of our singing’

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Aug 7 2005 1:35 utc | 64

rgiap
thanks…have wanted to read that.

Posted by: slothrop | Aug 7 2005 2:03 utc | 65

slothrop
there is another book of equal beauty about the life of a family of quarreling communists – a maoist father & his orthodox communist sonset in australia from the 18th century to the 1980’s – it is a a work of a superior heart
ot is called – the serpents tooth – roger milliss – penguin – if it is still available or you can get it through a library – it is such a beautiful beautiful work – that tells of the time when giants walked this earth

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Aug 7 2005 2:11 utc | 66

right on
Trying to cut back on my reading, you know, because I learned a few days ago here, knowledge is no defense against a preciously presented opinion. Seems enough to write well about nothing.

Posted by: slothrop | Aug 7 2005 2:18 utc | 67

rememberinggiap,
You speak our fear, you feel our loss and the loss of an an ancient place that contained our very heritage. Its enough that you are there, feeling what you feel and saying what you say. I am neither learned, nor articulate enough to express myself here but I am glad you are all there to say it for me.

Posted by: jd | Aug 7 2005 15:56 utc | 68

Just a note that I will be showing some of my artworks, like the ones I’ve posted here at the moon — at Seattles high end jewlery store, Fox Gem Shop, in the exterior display windows. I will try to post some pictures of the display soon. I could’nt imagine a context with more contrast, and have no idea what to expect– might be interesting.
more later

Posted by: anna missed | Aug 9 2005 9:25 utc | 69

Good luck, anna missed. Interesting juxtaposition, indeed. At least your work will be secure. =)

Posted by: beq | Aug 9 2005 13:01 utc | 70

Emergence of the Progressive Blogosphere:
A New Force in American Politics

Since March of 2005, the total number of blogs has grown from 7.8 million to 14.2 million. At this rate, the online universe is doubling in size every five months.This memo is a comprehensive look at the underlying dynamics of these online communities, along with a targeted analysis of how to engage them to generate political power.

Posted by: beq | Aug 11 2005 15:02 utc | 71

@Beq:
Why don’t you contact Bernhard, with a bit of writing on this link(it looks very interesting), and this could be Part II of the discussion.

Posted by: FlashHarry | Aug 11 2005 17:04 utc | 72

nice find beq. I second FlashHarry; it sounds like a thread.

Posted by: citizen | Aug 11 2005 17:29 utc | 73

I sent Bernhard an image (barfly art) this morning but I can call his attention to this too. [doesn’t quite go with my picture, though] :[

Posted by: beq | Aug 11 2005 18:08 utc | 74

rgiap said “- everything & i mean everythng is in the detail. & that detail is [o]nly possible with an active listening. if i can help make people [a]ware of their own situations in a critical way then they can function in a contingent & contradictory community.”
Thanks, RG. I am mining this thread about What Is To Be Done and surpisingly notice that I have echoed you by recently arguing that the details are important. Finding and ascertaining the details, remembering them and using them in discussion.
I am reminded of the phrase or paraphrase, “if we can see so far it is only that we stand on the shoulders of giants.”
The shoulders are the details and the memory and recitation of the details. The analysis and synthesis follow naturally.
Thanks to whoever it was revived this thread by linking it.

Posted by: jonku | Jan 2 2006 11:35 utc | 75