Under the circumstances, the “bitter enders” could very well carry the day in any internal political debate within the community. War, even a protracted struggle that leaves Iraq in ruins (that is, in even more ruins) could be seen as preferable to a compromise peace that ultimately leaves the Sunnis (from their point of view) at the mercy of their enemies. And this might be true not just of the jihadis and the hard-line neo-Baathists, but of many non-ideological fighters and their popular supporters — exactly the people that have to be peeled away if a political solution is to work.
Back to Main
June 14, 2005
Throwing in the Towel
Comments
True enough.
But long term gloom still assumes a flawed neo-conish perspctive on the world today and America’s role in. People pretty much want to live and play in the same world if given half a chance. See, Iran. Iraq in no more intractable than East Germany of Hong Kong. Maybe even Taiwan.
Posted by: Anonymous | Jun 14 2005 18:38 utc | 1
1. I wonder what Rummy and Cheney think about this. Were these statements sanctioned by the civil leaders or did the military attempted a little coup here?
2. If the U.S. does not leave, the situation in Iraq will get worse day by day. Will the first people starve in Iraq this year or next?
If the US leaves, the Shia might attempt what the US attempts now. Repress the guerilla by force. This will not work. After a while, they will find a political compromise. The Kurd will start fighting each other again and recognize that squeezed between Syria, Turkey, Iran and there best chance is to stick with their Arab brothers. Maybe they all will agree on a strongman, maybe they will have some kind of representation system. That doesn´t matter much if one urgently needs bread, water, medicine and peace.
b — I was thinking the same thing about the Dick and the Donald, particularly in light of Cheney’s recent statement that the insurgency is in its last throes. Damn, wouldn’t it be great if some reporter had the balls to toss these remarks in the face of Cheney and/or Rumsfeld and press them to respond?
The fist commenter is pretty foolish if they can’t see the difference between the artificial country of Iraq, with it’s divided Shia, Sunni, and Kurdish interests, and much more homogenous countries/populaces such as East Germany or Hong Kong.
The Brits created this Iraqi Frankenstein. Saddam abused it. Now Bush has conditionally freed the monster, but only after abusing it some more. Like a longtime prison inmate accustomed to tightly controlled and violent conditions, it won’t be easy for Iraq to adapt to the society of nations.
Posted by: Bragan | Jun 14 2005 19:11 utc | 3
of the defeat of the illegal, immoral & criminal enterpise of the american empire – nothing can be more certain
but how many people it takes down with it is another question entirely
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 14 2005 19:11 utc | 4
The military draft was one factor that turned Americans against Vietnam. ‘Twas very bracing. A bucket of cold reality to wake you right up — “You want me to go WHERE!?!”
A second factor was the evening news — all those horrible pictures of wounded and dead people – until even Walter Cronkite gagged.
That’s why Bush and Friends are so fierce about avoiding a draft, and avoiding pictures.
There’s a third factor now at work in America, eating away at Dubya’s War support from within. Righteous War.
In Iraq, we are invaders and occupiers, pure and simple. No dark strategic purpose, no commies or Russian dupes. Just locals, who honestly don’t want us there.
Americans love war. It’s our modus operandi.
War is our solution for everything. War on drugs, war on poverty, war on cancer, war on illiteracy. War on gays and war on liberals. War on terrorism. Righteous War.
A Bible and a gun is our happy place, historically, and anyone, anywhere, making Righteous War is OK with Americans.
That’s why my method works like a charm. I make Popcorn Patriots.
Why, in my neighborhood, I convert war supporters into war resisters every Saturday night, with just a DVD and some popcorn. All in the comfort of my own living room!
You can do it, too!
Here’s the ingredients:
1. Some neighborhood Republicans.
2. Mel Gibson’s movie, “The Patriot.”
3. Big ol’ TV.
4. Some Orville Redenbacher, with butter amd salt to taste.
5. Appropriate beverages.
Yeah, yeah, it’s real drippy, and way overblown.
So is the movie, come to think of it.
But the lesson about Righteous War comes across completely. I rarely need to spell it out.
In Mel’s patriotic bloodfest, we have a guy whose country is invaded by some arrogant bastards from overseas, who believe it’s their God-given right to casually ruin his life, and take whatever they please.
They show up, kill his son, burn his home, ruin his livelihood, and drag him into an awful, bloody situation he never wanted to be a part of. He just wanted to live his life. A fella oughta be able to do that, right? But here they are, with their war. They bring it right to his front door, fer Chrissake.
What’s he do?
What he has to do.
He goes after them, no holds barred.
French-Indian style.
He doesn’t stand up in the open with a fife and a flag, marching at measured pace in their direction.
No, he assasinates them. Wholesale.
No quarter, no mercy, no rules.
He has the right — after what they’ve done.
He shoots them in the back, from behind trees and rocks, he leaps on them with knife and tomahawk, he blows them up, he ambushes them, he slices their throats and stabs them in the face, pausing briefly now and then to regret that he must needs do these things but, alas, he must.
He is joined in this carnage by his local pastor, by his neighbors, and by some of the most ruthless and ill-mannered ruffians and rascals from the deep woods you’d ever want to meet in broad daylight.
Over-the-Mountain men. Father-rapers. And worse.
There are dark hints of skinning their captives alive to get them to talk . . . but they’re fighting for what’s right, so everyone is okay with the slaughter. It’s practically holy work.
Together, these righteous murderers pop up everywhere, kill some of the invaders, and then melt away into the local farmhouses and villages, innocent and free. At their whim and pleasure, they do dirty deeds by night and by day, trying to convince the redcoats that they cannot stay.
These are the heroes of Mel’s epic American tale, and they run rings around the overbearing invaders because they have the willing support of the local populace and they know their home territory so well.
Then, at choice moments during the movie, during a sneaking ambush or a great hacking-to-death I murmur to my Republican guests, “Gosh, this is just like what the Iraqis do! Yay! Hit ’em again!! Uh, more popcorn, Fred? Mary?”
If the lesson needs any reinforcing (some people are thick, you know), I’ll point out afterwards that “if this sort of invasion happened to you and me, in our own neighborhood, we’d do the same thing. You, me, the local pastor and all our neighbors would grimly do whatever had to be done to get the invading bastards out of our country. Just like the Iraqis.”
Every red-blooded American has to agree with me. They admit freely that what the Iraqis are doing is exactly what we’d do. Righteous War. We can’t blame them one whit.
So, friends, get yourselves some Orville Redenbacher and try this method in your own home today, before Mel puts a disclaimer on his movie:
“Offer Not Valid In Middle Eastern Countries.”
Posted by: Antifa | Jun 14 2005 19:43 utc | 5
We think faster than things happen. What is happening now has been predictable (was predicted) since about two years ago, when a month into the Occupation it was clear that there had been no plan other than to install a puppet government of Iraqi ex-pats. It was also obvious from the start that there had been no official surrender by the Iraqi government, which should have raised suspicions about the identity of the ‘dead-enders.’ The war never stopped; they just changed the mode of resistance.
By November 2003 it was obvious that we would be facing an attrition problem as casualties mounted. I recall having sent a Christmas card that year to an old roommate, presently Undersecretary of Defense for Personnel wishing him a Happy and hoping that he would not be taking the fall for the impending manpower disaster (so far he hasn’t).
The point of all this is that if a rank amateur can see this, the Pros surely can. It must be a very hard situation for the upper ranks of the army and marine officer corps to see their organization destroyed by a bunch of Yahoos assisted by an Air Force Man (also traditionally military yahoos). This isn’t quite the 1944 assassination plot, but politically these remarks are pointing along that line. The officers know the war is lost. They want to cut the losses.
Colin Powell should rot in everlasting hell for this disaster. He knew better, and he acted against his professional judgment. You can explain Cheney, Bush, Rumsfeld and Company away as half-assed undergraduates who by the quirk of American history seized power at the top and followed their fantasy. You can’t explain away Powell. He knew better, and he could have stopped this disaster by resigning, just as Blair could have stopped it (contrary to the DSM) by refusing to go along. In my view the enablers are more guilty than the perpetrators, because they knew better and didn’t act.
As to the war, the officers know it is effectively over for us there. A likely scenario for the exit is a show trial for Saddam and maybe Tariq (though what crime he guilty of I don’t know), and then proclaim success and that’s it. Not much for 1700 lives and counting.
Posted by: Knut Wicksell | Jun 14 2005 19:53 utc | 6
Knight Ridder has in the past been more honest about the truth than most media outlets. The officers in Iraq by bucking Rumsfeld have risked reprisals but probably felt; Hell, what are they going to do to me? Send me to Iraq?
The blindness of the Bush Administration is total. Colin Powell thought back in 2003 when the insurrection started going that the USA could out-source pacifying Iraq to Bangladesh and Fuji. They couldn’t conceive that a bi-lateral invasion by Christian Occupiers without UN authorization would lead to the eventual isolation of US/UK forces in Iraq.
For a group of Chicken-hawks that like to act and talk tough, they can’t grasp that once they kicking the Sunni Arabs out of power the only way the USA can pacify them is by ethnic cleansing. By disdaining international law and jurisprudence, the Bush Administration has guaranteed a unified Muslim religious and moral rejection of US Hegemony in the Middle East.
Posted by: Jim S | Jun 14 2005 20:27 utc | 7
“Americans love war. It’s our modus operandi.”
emma gouldman, upton sinclair, john dos pasos, allen ginsberg, mlk…geez…I’d say there’s a scad or two of antiwar americans.
Posted by: slothrop | Jun 14 2005 20:48 utc | 8
i’m not convinced that these captains of imperialism aren’t figuring on “ethnic cleansing” to play a role in the middle east. it’s probably in their genetic makeup, for one thing, but it’s definately follows their ideological economic policies of reducing everything, including humanity, to monocultures. less expenditures/risk, more control/profit when you only have to focus on one demographic. acting as both the military enforcer of transnational capitalism and shocktroops for the oil industry, there’s no doubt an impetus to remove local resistance in strategic energy reserves. it’s already happened here on the native north american reservations, situated on some of the richest deposits on the continent.
Posted by: b real | Jun 14 2005 20:57 utc | 9
there can be little question that even in the early stages, that the conflict has been decided
the ‘awe” was for all the little hotpant commentators of the mass media who cab’t look at a missile without getting an erection. ô they loved the thunder & lightning – they’ve all been brought up on movies that make the murder of people look so easy
their wonder, the wonder of little shits like hitchens for example for their higher morality conceals only a little their attraction to brutality in the worst freudian sense
in hitchens case – he adores power but he like the added kink of feeling superior to that power but as galloway so clearly inferred – we are dealing with pretty small cheese with commentators like that & in fact, in the final analysis, not a great deal of commentary & that of little substance
it is suggested in the interview with saddam husseins lawyer that “all is gong to plan” – & even if that is a little exaggerated it would seem to be largely true. they were never going to fight the war the americans wanted, the war they had learned from speilberg & schumaker.
it seems clear that they decicded some time ago that they would establish structures of resistance & they are beginning ro function & it is commonly accepted that there has been a qualitative level of concentration by the resistance
they have read & are practicing their sun tzu. a ten year war with iran has given them a leadership cadre who aare operating everywhere & it is clear that that cadre would be working on political as well as military imperatives – forging alliances, making strategy
what the iraq resistance posesses is discernment – no matter how horrible that may seem to people outside iraq, the americans show no discernment whatsoever. worse they seem to believe their own lies – which is a fatal flaw for an armed force
the u s forces lack any sense of proportion & it is this their absence of moderation that will be their undoing. in the first instance – it simply looks like victory & after all that is what all the media has attention for – the first 20 minutes & after that even the eilites are forced to create narrative after narrative after narrative – that too comes straight form hollywood – home to spiritual poverty
& for all their supposed organisation – th us armed forces have seemingl no level of prioritisation which actually functions. their resistance is described as this one day, that the other day – there is no consistency – full flamed attacks on the syrian border one day & town hall meetings in another
if i was an american taxpayer i would want to know what the military elies learn at the war college, citadel or west point that could not be learned in east los angeles at less the price & a lot more authenticity
the exit of the us forces will be more shaemeful than that in vietnam – a great deal more shameful because as someone else posted here – the reasons are transparent – there is no higher cause that is in any sense credible even to their own electorate
what i fear tho in difference to vietname where the u s left with its tale between its legs sacrificing their loyal puppets on the way – in iraq – som much has ridden on the lies & so much still & i fear that even despite their obvious inability to win this war they will become even more violent – they will widen the battlefield & that is why i feel that syria & iran rest possible extensions
syria is the more fragile to attack & if history has taught us anything it is that the imperial power likes to attack those it thinks won’t fight back but i feel syria will be a freat deal more problematic than they have thought
ô they would dearly love to take iran – but they are not so naive to to not see clearly that in a conventional war the iranians would destroy them utterly & it is clear that the iranians are utterly prepared for such a possibility & indeed it would help quell the resistance at home – after all that is what it served to do in the iran iraq war
if i am as i feel sometimes not long for this world – i know i have witnessed the beginning of the end of the american empire in a way that allows for little ambiguity
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 14 2005 21:00 utc | 10
earlystage.com seems to have pulled the photos and interview of Mr. Christian Bailey off their site.
Posted by: DavidLA | Jun 14 2005 21:04 utc | 11
b real
again, i feel you are correct to reconnect this war with the war waged against the indian people, for something as vulgar as profit
when you connected it before, it forced me to do much rereading of that history for which i am extremely thankful & i am also glad to see that anna missed’s are always hints at that connection in a way that is sublime as wall as pertinent
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 14 2005 21:07 utc | 12
and no doubt some of the uranium 238 we’ve shit on the iraqi’s came from uranium mines poisoning indian lands here
Posted by: b real | Jun 14 2005 21:12 utc | 13
Asked when he expected any decisions to be made, Rumsfeld answered, “I don’t do time frames.”
Different subject, same twerp.
Posted by: biklett | Jun 14 2005 21:23 utc | 14
rememberinggiap
what the iraq resistance posesses is discernment – no matter how horrible that may seem to people outside iraq, the americans show no discernment whatsoever. worse they seem to believe their own lies – which is a fatal flaw for an armed force
the u s forces lack any sense of proportion & it is this their absence of moderation that will be their undoing. in the first instance – it simply looks like victory & after all that is what all the media has attention for – the first 20 minutes & after that even the elites are forced to create narrative after narrative after narrative – that too comes straight form hollywood – home to spiritual poverty
I’d never quite understood before exactly what people were getting at with their critiques of Hollywood, not that I didn’t smell something wrong, but maybe I was born too late to have seen the differences. But, right after reading your comment, I picked up Saul Alinsky, and he nailed the problem down.
Our youth are impatient with the preliminaries that are essential to purposeful action. Effective organization is thwarted by the desire for instant and dramatic change, or as I have phrased it elsewhere the demand for revelation rather than revolution. It’s the kind of thing we see in play writing; the first act introduces the characters and the plot, in the second act the plot and characters are developed as the play strives to hold the audience’s attention. In the final act good and evil have their dramatic confrontation and resolution. The present generation wants to go right into the third act, skipping the first two, in which case there is no play, nothing but confrontation for confrontation’s sake – a flare-up and back to darkness.
The average Hollywood action movie gets the first two acts over in about 5 minutes, and the rest is confrontation. Likewise with our international politics. I’m starting to warm to Alinsky’s analysis that the U.S. was blinded when McCarthyism took out generations of activists and left the left rootless, unguided.
Posted by: citizen | Jun 14 2005 21:32 utc | 15
Will this life as an American morality play ever end? Iraq was Iraq before the nuts invaded. Iraq is Iraq now. Iraq may be Iraq tommorrow.
The current problem in Iraq was not foreordained, though its equivalent may have been. The Sunni’s are fighting for their station in the nation. They cannot win. The Shia are waiting for power. They will get it. The insurrection is a Sunni insurrection. There were ways to remove Hussein for the good of Iraq that may well have worked, but, not any unilteral neo con ways. This psudeo idea that Life Was Good then America invaded, and now Life Is Good because America is losing is pathetically self indulgent. It shows complete disdain for Iraq and the people living there, in the name of solidarity.
I posted the first comment and stand by it. America did not create Iraq’s problems as described above – that the problem is conflicts between the people who live in Iraq. The antagonisms come with the territory. The only way to respect Iraq is to respect those boundaries.
But this worship of America, for good, or as bad, is shameful.
Look at the planet and there is no reason for the Iraq idiocy to continue another twenty years. The world has changed. For those who think intractable problems remain intractable, in a piece of desert far from much of anything, is a grave of an uncle of mine who never was out of that desert until he was required to leave. His end came in December, 1944, in France, and he was not there for the cooking or the culture nor did he want to be there. He was forced there because others had intractable problems for centuries that are now, in living memory of those who died to soon, tractable.
Stop looking at America as Prime Mover and the future looks a lot better and these old blood feuds much less acceptable to the youngsters whose elders insist on perpetuating the feuds. Start looking at the planet as it is and there is far less chance that the neo con nuts will be able to sell America on the next boneheaded war, they are working on with the opening shots in the whore media, the big one, the one over Taiwan.
Posted by: razor | Jun 14 2005 21:32 utc | 16
I should’ve bolded in the quote:
…the demand for revelation rather than revolution…
for power, not for improvement, a sickness shared on left and right.
Posted by: citizen | Jun 14 2005 21:37 utc | 17
@razor – The insurrection is a Sunni insurrection.
Is it? What do you have to substantiate that statement?
citizen
that alinsky has so much sense & the allussion to the generations,being wiped out has been the constant truth ever since mcarthy
i know people here detest ramsey clark but he was very clear on cointelpro & by inference heroin, coke & crack. that is that the stae has made its business to liquidate (& in the case of the black panthers for example, physically liquidate) generation after generation of militants. or more simply people who care but whom are effective
& it has always followed the same rules; mock, marginalise; isolate, incarcerate & if necessary, kill
& i think i understand that well – that in your country – a real & substantial resistance has a heavy price to pay. a price many of us in europe are not compelled to pay in the same way
& it is not nostalgia to say how many good mean & women in america have been destroyed trying to act for a better world & i will repeat what i have sd here before – julius & ethel rosenberg -(for all their illussions they cared for a better world) were better americans than the dulles brothers (who cared fro nothing other than their sordid power)
& you are right to suggest at the centre of resistance is as arthur miller says in death of a salesman – attention. attention/reflexion/meditation/action
it is as if culture has destroyes a people’s capacity to be still. to reflect & to comprehend
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 14 2005 21:51 utc | 19
An in-depth Analysis
Vicious Circle: The Dynamics of Occupation and Resistance in Iraq
Project on Defense Alternatives Research Monograph #10
Carl Conetta
18 May 2005
1. Introduction: Iraqi public sentiments regarding the occupation
The occupation of Iraq is today less about rolling back Iraqi military power, dislodging a tyrant, or building a stable democracy than it is about fighting an insurgency — an insurgency that is now driven substantially by the occupation, its practices, and policies. We can take a first step toward understanding the insurgency by locating it within the broader field of popular Iraqi opposition to the occupation, which is widespread. Iraqi public opinion has been polled repeatedly since the beginning of the occupation by a variety of firms. Their findings leave no doubt about the main contours of Iraqi sentiment regarding the occupation:
On balance, Iraqis oppose the US presence in Iraq, and those who strongly oppose it greatly outnumber those who strongly support it …
Posted by: Outraged | Jun 14 2005 21:53 utc | 20
b
Are you serious? I mean, I can do it, but I don’t think it is worth the time. I don’t think the question is in good faith. It ignore all the facts on the ground, most prominent of which is, the Shia own Iraq right now, but do not control it, and have been the targets of the Sunni for months now, and, they have already indicated they don’t want America to leave immediately precisely because they do not have control.
Posted by: razor | Jun 14 2005 21:54 utc | 21
@ razor
Are you serious … peruse the above deatiled analysis and one may come to a different conclusion without the repetitive memes of the manipulated media … the Sunni are a core of the insurgency, but they are not THE insurgency in its entirety, not by a long shot …
Posted by: Outraged | Jun 14 2005 22:01 utc | 22
razor
i know that the resistance is not just sunnis. point
read gilles keppel
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 14 2005 22:03 utc | 23
outraged
read the analysis quickly & it would infer – that some of the ‘administrative’ military leadership is sunni but the coimponents of the resistance itself i from all groups & all layers of iraqui society & frowing exponentially
i’m sure razor is pursuing a provoking mode
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 14 2005 22:06 utc | 24
It’s kinda sad that when it boils down war opponents are still framing the slaughter in Iraq in terms that relate to their own cultural experience eg the native american genocide.
The worst thing about the ‘adventure’ I can see is that it has put Iraq back nearly a hundred years in political evolution.
Iraq is /was an artificial construct but people with their need to live and eat have a habit of eventually making these constructs work.
Lets look at what may have happened if outside forces hadn’t stuck their noses in. Firstly from comments made from all sides early in the Invasion, it appears that most Shites and Sunnis considered themselves Iraqis first and shites or sunnis second.
A natural evolution for a country and one which had been accelerated by the war with it’s neighbour and the first gulf war. It’s difficult to tell what the general view amongst kurds was since they had been subjected to outside interference from the early 90’s. We do know that by the time of the first gulf war Saddam had eased up on his horrible repression. We also know that in Mosul dissident kurds are fighting to end the US occupation.
I reckon if they had been left alone to sell their oil and get about their business a political evolution, probably interspersed with some military activity eg when Hussein died, the psychopath kids would have tried to hang onto control, would have resulted in a mostly integrated semi-democratic state.
Now that all of the primary tribal urges have been pulled out dusted off and given new life the nation building process will have to start again.
I dunno how that can be achieved without continuing major loss of life but equally leaving the sunnis to fester in misery bang smack in the middle of the country is untenable.
I mean I don’t have sides in this I would just like to see the killing stop and however the US does come to terms with the failure of it’s invasion it is beholden on all of us to help ensure that what comes next has the minimum negative effect on the Iraqi people.
Posted by: Debs is dead | Jun 14 2005 22:09 utc | 25
Boyden also neglected to tell the tribe that its coal would help fuel the development boom in the Southwest. With cities like Phoenix and Las Vegas then on the brink of explosive growth, the tribe could have exerted enormous leverage to extract the best possible price for its coal and water. Instead, Boyden’s agreement sold the tribe’s coal and water rights for absurdly low prices. The Hopi and the Navajo received a royalty rate that was half what the U.S. government received for coal mined on public lands. The water deal was worse–if there even was a deal. Masayesva says there is no evidence that anyone from the tribe signed a lease that gave Peabody access to the reservation’s aquifers.
“There is no record,” declares Masayesva. “We hired a law firm to investigate. They couldn’t find any record where the tribe ever approved a sale of that water.”
Masayesva, who has examined the 1966 lease, says that it contains a handwritten section–added without the knowledge of anyone on the tribal council–specifying how much the Hopi would receive for their water. For every acre-foot of water pumped from the aquifer (an acre-foot is the amount of water that would cover an acre to a depth of one foot), Peabody was to pay $ 1.67. In the arid Southwest, water from the N aquifer should have commanded $ 30 to $ 50 per acre-foot.
Why did Boyden fail to protect the interests of his impoverished clients, who even today suffer an unemployment rate that hovers around 50 percent? The mystery wasn’t solved until many years after Boyden’s death in 1980. One of Wilkinson’s research assistants uncovered a startling fact while studying a collection of Boyden’s papers in 1992: Boyden secretly worked for Peabody at the same time he was representing the Hopi. Billing records and correspondence with Peabody executives show that Boyden’s association with the company lasted from 1964 through 1971. Boyden’s chief concern during those years was not the welfare of the Hopi but the development of the Southwest, which would have been impossible without access to the tribe’s coal and water.–Tim Folger, “A thirsty nation,” OnEarth, September 22, 2004
But, breal, western water wars do not always implicate the venality of whities. Settling treaty claims by Souther/Mountain Utes in SW Colorado, demonstrates how the wealth of water pollutes the sensibilities of even those persons we believe “genetically” respect The Earth. The Animas-La Plata Project, a boondoggle for the tribes, is an ecological nightmare, delivering water for SW development.
Posted by: slothrop | Jun 14 2005 22:11 utc | 26
damn, sorry. The 1st article is a decent history of the Peabody coal mining on Black Mesa, Arizona. Demonstrates how Hopi/Navajo got ripped.
Posted by: slothrop | Jun 14 2005 22:14 utc | 27
DiD
Don’t fool yourself. No one moves backward in time.
The Iraqis are very much “integrated” into the modern world, and imagining them as remote from us in evolutionary time is just a variation on staring at the sun too long.
Posted by: citizen | Jun 14 2005 22:17 utc | 28
Dear Mothers
From: Mike Hastie
Sent: June 10, 2005 3:29 AM
Subject: Dear Mothers
To G.I. Special:
The following was written by a friend, who did not want to be named.
“When I finished Marine Corps basic training at eighteen, I felt like the loving heart of my mother died inside of me. But, when I got severely wounded in Vietnam, she was the first person I thought of.
One other Marine who was wounded at the same time, was actually yelling out for his mother. When we were put on the helicopter, along with three other Marines in body bags, I could still hear him crying out for his mother. A few minutes before we landed, he stopped crying, because he bled to death.
I still hear him screaming in my nightmares, and that happened in 1968.
I truly believe if mothers had been on that helicopter that day, the anti-war movement in this country would skyrocket.”
Dear Mothers,
Don’t let your children join the military.
I don’t care what you have to do.
Once they have been exposed to war, they never come home the same–never.
As a medic in Vietnam, I saw teenage boys take their last breath. It is a moment in time you never forget. When you zip up a body bag, something inside of you dies.
When I came home from that lying war, I shut the door on my life.
The only person I eventually let in, was my mother, because she never stopped loving me.
Five years ago she died, and her loving memory is the only thing that gets me up in the morning.
Mike Hastie
U.S. Army Medic,
Vietnam 1970-71
Posted by: Outraged | Jun 14 2005 22:18 utc | 29
Now, I see not the best thread for a native american water rights comment. Just wanted to counter the view displayed too relentlessly here whitey/american is foundationally blameworthy for what all ails the world.
It’s more complicated.
Posted by: slothrop | Jun 14 2005 22:22 utc | 30
@citizen
Indeed. Iraqi’s prior to the invasion had the highest level of literacy and overrall education level of any ‘ragheads’ (sarcasm).
Iraqi’s will pay yet another terrible price when we inevitably ‘cut and run’ from Iraq, however, the greater cost will be the rest of the world and the progreesive collapse of the US to dominate it.
The fools of this administration have cracked open Pandora’s Box by the invasion and occupation.
The helicopters lifting off from the ‘Green Zone’ will lift the lid …
Posted by: Outraged | Jun 14 2005 22:26 utc | 31
deb
your picture of iraq simply does not correspond to any reality i know
from the first. saddam hussein was no more & a great dell less tyrannique than either a pinochet or a suharto – his human rights recors a great deal better than many, many nations the u s has happily supported for a century or more
what constituted iraqui society under saddam hussein was a great deal more enlightened than saudia arabia, quatar, kuwait etc etc
the iraquis are iraquis. in he same way someone from seattle or vermont is an american. skin to skin. breath to breath
our civilisation was created by the rivers of iraq – perhaps the death of civilisation will also occur close to those rivers
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 14 2005 22:28 utc | 32
ô slothrop
american imperialism is not imperial. colonisation is not colonisation. the massacre of innocents whether they were american indians & or iraquis is not a massacre of innocents
international capital has a face, it has an impulsion, it has its practices & in your fog of denial if you cannot see that those practices are determined in the united states & not in rome, paris moscow or even london but in washington
detail, researched detail does not mean hiding behind a wall but detail – the ugly details of facts stae very clearly & without ambiguity who is the motor of terror in our time
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 14 2005 22:34 utc | 33
@citizen
no people don’t move backwards in time but my anectdotal observation has lead me to believe that it takes 2-3 generations of reasonable harmony before rival groups can if you’ll forgive the metaphor after what I said above, ‘bury the hatchet’.
As long as young people have parents or grandparents sitting around who can remind them of the terrible things they witnessed the other mob do, ethnic/cultural conflicts can be revisited.
I was trying to say the sacrifices already made by the Iraqi people will be negated if ‘divide and rule’ gets a following.
Posted by: Debs is dead | Jun 14 2005 22:36 utc | 34
slothrop
you remind me sometimes of kay corleone has she talks to michael before they get married – when they speak of criminality, of power, of murder & of america & of naiveté
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 14 2005 22:39 utc | 35
but then i am what your culture would call a “bitter ender”
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 14 2005 22:40 utc | 36
slothrop – my quip on genes was actually inspired by recent readings on the controversy over whether cro-magnon groups pulled a genocide on most of the neanderthals combined w/ half-assed meditations on whether king george’s lil’ head and frequent simian expressions betray a genetic predispostion to seek revenge for something long, long ago. hopefully i’ve never even so much as implied that people of one skin color are to blame for all the bad stuff. will check out the dam article later. thnks.
r’giap – when bushco protested AI’s call for investigation of human rights violations you could just feel the subtext of their rebuttals: “human rights? how can we be ignoring human rights? these people aren’t human…”. all they see is progress, property, and US dollars.
Posted by: b real | Jun 14 2005 22:46 utc | 37
DiD.
I agree that generations of work and sacrifice went into achieving a secular state, that millenia of Mesopotamian work built up precious society. And I agree that ‘divide and rule’ strategies can still make the situation there even worse.
But I can’t go with you on this:
I dunno how that can be achieved without continuing major loss of life but equally leaving the sunnis to fester in misery bang smack in the middle of the country is untenable.
The one major contribution that U.S. domestic politics can allow is to get the U.S. out of Iraq. Any indulgence in alien paternalism – although it is exactly the sort of approach we’re asked to learn in high school and college – compounds the problem.
Posted by: citizen | Jun 14 2005 22:47 utc | 38
rgiap
you know us americans, we’re incapable of anything greater than the slaughter of innocents.
I’m confident, when the fog lifts, and no US hegemon will be found in your world, you euros can finally be relieved to unhaltingly practice your deep charities.
Posted by: slothrop | Jun 14 2005 23:07 utc | 39
slothrop
if we all survive the death of american imperial hegemony – yes, i think the world will have made a qualitative leap towards something better tho i doubt whether i will be alive to see it
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 14 2005 23:17 utc | 40
@citizen
If we’re just talking about the US then the positive thing they can do is get their asses out of there but since the chances of an instant withdrawal conceeding defeat and leaving are about as slim as they come this isn’t a subject that should be ignored.
Honestly can you see anyone that even looks like getting power in the US going for that? The next step for these guys will be to try and set up a federalist state, they are already talking about it.
The point I’m trying to make is if we just push for ‘troops out now’ and don’t consider all the consequences then we are condemning a lot of people to alot of misery.
I’m not suggesting any sort of ‘paternalist’ intervention but since when did anything get fixed by ignoring. To paraphrase the fool Powell ‘Iraq’s broke’ and it will require assistance to heal.
Posted by: Debs is dead | Jun 14 2005 23:18 utc | 41
and you remind me of my favorite cartoon communist Boris Badinoff: ‘Comrade Nikolai, it is absolute impossible he will not be firrrst against wall when rrrrevolution comes.’
Posted by: slothrop | Jun 14 2005 23:19 utc | 42
& you know very well what i am saying. that i am suggesting that when you suggest we all benefit from america’s imperial greed you somehow diminish the nature , the peculiar nature of capitalis development in america
& you know very well that i say what i say to you because i think you write sometimes as if we can go back to something normal – i simply do not think that is possible
when you hodge & dodge in relation to the post of b real – it is in its way o marginalisation of the terrible in,justice carried out against the original propieters of your country
& perhaps you are too young to remember but i remember fred hampton, black panther who fought for a better america was murdered in his bed by the chicago police & that a generation of some of americas best has been destroyed every decade. that isn’t hyperbole – that is made very clear evein in the cointelpro documents made available by your government – without commentary
& it would seem that you & i have a different conception of learning & of scholarship. when i read benjamin it opened up life to me it neither defined it or closed it down – nor was it something i used to escape current realities – in its way – it made that reality clearer
so you know very well who i am accusing of what but you can paint me as you wish but i can tell you this for nothing – my marxism has always been located in my heart & it moves only to the cerebral cortex when it has been tested by both the tensions, the frailties & the vagaries of living
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 14 2005 23:28 utc | 43
@giap I think I would have to put Hussein in there with Suharto which isn’t a great comparison.
Suharto came to power by convincing the peaceful Balinese to slaughter nearly half a million ethnic chinese. What followed was replacement of the ethnic chinese control of the balinese economy with javanese control.
But the Indonesians have got past Suharto and things aren’t by any means great in Indonesia but they are better in that the Javanese imperialism is slightly more benign.
Golkar party ‘nation building’ can be viewed as Javanese hegemony not unlike the Hussein ‘nation building’ was claimed by the US to be Sunni hegemony.
Posted by: Debs is dead | Jun 14 2005 23:35 utc | 44
my marxism has always been located in my heart
that’s exactly the problem.
But, it’s not a big problem, unless you’re the one to order my execution after the rrrrevolution.
Posted by: slothrop | Jun 14 2005 23:41 utc | 45
debs
i was just trying to suggest( in my brutish way) that there are/were some governors of states in america who are worse than saddam hussein
Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 14 2005 23:43 utc | 46
“I do not know with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.” Albert Einstein
“God told me to strike at al Qaeda and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East.” President George Bush 25 June 2003 Haaretz
[According to Palestinian Authority Prime Minister Abu Mazen’s account in Arabic of what Bush said in English, written down by a note-taker in Arabic, then back into English. [Source]]
Leaders in countries ranging from China, Russia and Iran to many European capitals share deep anxieties about the emergence of the United States as a “benevolent hegemon” — seeing a “rogue superpower” instead. Short of joining forces formally, the outlines of a counterveiling bloc are seen in the convergence of threat perceptions. Russia is disquieted by the post-September 11th American incursions into traditional Caucasus-Central Asian security zone. China remains uneasy over the Korean Peninsula and Taiwan, while fixing a at a “new Silk Road” allowing unfettered access to the Middle East and Eurasia. The Islamic Republic of Iran is emerging as a frontline state in ther global lineup against US hegemony is prevalent in the Chinese and Russian foreign-policy community …
Posted by: Outraged | Jun 15 2005 0:04 utc | 47
Debs iD,
I think you’re right there that whoever wins the next presidential might still keep us in Iraq. But, that doesn’t mean that it will help political opposition if you demand something other than getting U.S. troops out of Iraq. Our role is to make the “leaders” follow as they realize that we’re moving in a different direction.
Or to be more clear, I think that so long as we provide cover to DC politicians who make backroom benefits off of a US occupation of Iraq. Sure, with a real government or real paternalism, we might get somewhere with some plan for staging. But we’re facing our actual government and so we are essentially facing a facade for arms dealers and other branches of a war profit machine. Or is there some other reason why the military budget is our one remaining Keynesian policy?
since when did anything get fixed by ignoring
Living things heal when you ignore them. Iraq could use some ignoring fromthe U.S. round about now.
Posted by: citizen | Jun 15 2005 0:07 utc | 48
“We are in control. They are in a state of hysteria. Losers, they think that by killing civilians and trying to distort the feelings of the people they will win. I think they will not win, those bastards.”
– “Baghdad Bob,” circa 2,003
Posted by: steve expat | Jun 15 2005 0:27 utc | 49
Althusser:
And when, in 1843, Marx was disillusioned by his failure to teach the Germans Reason and Freedom and he decided at last to leave for France, he still went largely in search of a myth, just as a few years ago it was still possible for the majority of the students of colonial subject nations to leave home in search of their Myth in France. But when he got there, he made the fundamental discovery that France and England did not correspond to their myth, the discovery of the class struggle, of flesh and blood capitalism, and of the organized proletariat.
Thus an extraordinary division of labour led to Marx discovering the reality of France while Engels did the same for England. Once again we must use the term retreat (not ‘supersession’), that is, the retreat from myth to reality, when we are dealing with the actual experience which tore off the veils of illusion behind which Marx and Engels had been living as a result of their beginnings.
But this retreat from ideology towards reality came to coincide with the discovery of a radically new reality of which Marx and Engels could find no echo in the writings of `German philosophy’. In France, Marx discovered the organized working class, in England, Engels discovered developed capitalism and a class struggle obeying its own laws and ignoring philosophy and philosophers–from For Marx
Rgiap, you seem to insist on a Myth of America–that we the people are hopelessly morally debased and debasing: American Exceptionalism in the reverse. I’d never argue, nor would Althusser, American capitalism is the same ol’ same ol’–just plug it into Revolution and hit the “play” button. But, the problems the world suffers caused by global capitalism is an empirical reality no more or less exacerbated by the fact many American millionaires are members of its vanguard. But Americans are hardly alone in the different ways elites press the service of capitalism to fool their own people. Sure, Americans are more dangerous now, and much more about why has to do with the “reality” of capitalism here and elsewhere, “inside and outside,” as Althusser says. Rgiap, comrade, you contribute next to zero by the wholesale condemnation of America. In fact, your scorn is a kind of class contempt.
About Benjamin, too. Among the saddest points in his ouevre is his astonishment he, as a jew, could not be a German. So far as I know, he never ascribed this bizarre exclusion to this or that german spirit, but to the stupid viciousness of nazism and the intersection of this stupidity with the “spirit of the commodity.”
Posted by: slothrop | Jun 15 2005 1:05 utc | 50
@citizen
You may be facing the US government but fortunately I’m not, well not directly anyway. All the people in the world have an interest in ensuring that loss of life is minimised. We should probably stay away from metaphors but since I’m a big a transgressor in that area as anyone else I feel obliged to point out when something is diseased certain interventions do work.
Someone suggested the other night that the Indian sub-continent was left in a no more fragmented state after the end of the British Occupation than before it. I disagree and life for muslims in parts of India is a life of never knowing when the mob from the slum next to yours is going to come through and ‘put you to the sword’ then burn down your homes and businesses. Everything I have ever read about India tells me that while there was differences between the religions prior to occupation these rarely if ever turned into mass violence between poor people.
Back to Iraq, sure a quick and easy way of reducing the slaughter somewhat would be to pull out the occupation forces and leave it alone. I can’t agree that is the only way or even the best way.
Posted by: Debs is dead | Jun 15 2005 1:23 utc | 51
Guess I’m just tired of the Americans Suck thing. But, I suppose these days, “we” deserve to be an object of uiniversal derision.
I’ll learn to quietly hate myself. Give me time.
Posted by: slothrop | Jun 15 2005 1:38 utc | 52
@Slothrop
Hmmm, ‘Not in my name’ perhaps …
Discover What the World Thinks About the U.S.
Der Spiegel, Apr. 28, Germany:
Add WatchingAmerica to Your Diet …
“To our American friends out there: after finishing your daily diet
of the usual English-language newspaper and corn flakes,
you might want to pay Watching America a visit.”
Posted by: Outraged | Jun 15 2005 1:49 utc | 54
Comparing Iraq to India? Then partition the damned country already and be done with it. Stop throwing good money/lives after bad.
Posted by: gylangirl | Jun 15 2005 2:03 utc | 55
Didn’t look all that bad, Outraged, considering.
Thought it would be worse.
Posted by: FlashHarry | Jun 15 2005 2:05 utc | 56
Its updated daily … especially useful are the english translations of foriegn language articles … useful keyhole view into perspectives/viewpoints other than mainstream USA media …
Posted by: Outraged | Jun 15 2005 2:11 utc | 57
@gylangirl
“Comparing Iraq to India? Then partition the damned country already and be done with it. Stop throwing good money/lives after bad.”
That comment is hardly worth acknowledging except it is exactly what I fear the outcome of the anti war effort in the US will be. That ‘damned country’ as you call it is a nation of many millions of people. I don’t want to crank up Giap again but just walking out and cutting it off from the world economy will have a much worse effect in Iraq than Vietnam which was far from bloodless.
The Congo would probably be a better parallel than India or Vietnam. Control of resources will move according to which company is providing the best weapons and resources to which local ‘leader’. Two stories came out of the Congo last week. If I was as organised as others in here I would include a link. But google will find them. One from an Australian mining company called Anvil which had a problem with locals objecting to the environmental effects of their goldmine so they flew in the government forces to deal with it. Deal with it they did they raped and murdered the population of the surrounding villages. The spokesman for the company said. “What the government does is their business. We just asked for help and flew them in. We didn’t tell them to kill anyone.”
The second story was about Anglo African Gold (I think or Anglo American Their spokesman was a white South African). They had a mine in a rebel held area and were being asked why they were paying money to the rebel leaders. This group had got control of the area in the time honoured fashion of cutting the left limb off the male children. People tend to acquiesce in the face of that sort of brutality.
The rebels wanted control because there was a dollar in it. There was a dollar in it because the congo has been ‘ignored’. but of course it hasn’t really been ignored no one ignores the sort of wealth that the congolese are unfortunate enough to be sitting on.
Posted by: Debs is dead | Jun 15 2005 2:30 utc | 59
The whole point DID, is that we don’t have enough troops to stabilize the country,even if one can analogize with 100% clarity from country to country, which I don’t buy for a minute.
There is no viable Iraqi defense force today, 2 years into this conflict, because the Bush Ad, did not want to spend any money to create one. I doubt that will change in another 2 years–The government will be protected by what ever unemployds that can be found to watch the 8 hour film that makes them an infantryman.
Then they will be issued pieces of shit weaponry and “stood up”.
I don’t see how US withdrawal and an Iraqi solution would necessarily produce a worse result.
Posted by: FlashHarry | Jun 15 2005 3:11 utc | 60
Whose talking about stabilising the country with troops? The point is the US/UK broke it and I am at least one human being on this planet who does not see walking away from this mess as sufficient.
If it costs more US/UK lives well that’s unfortunate and I hope it won’t happen but rather them than any more Iraquis who have the misfortune to be living close to something that greedheads want.
I think it probably can be done without more loss of life. I doubt that this will be achieved without considerable financial cost though. And this will be the sticking point. If US citizens have endangered their chance to get better health or superannuation because their elected government has destroyed another county’s infrastructure then that’s tough but I think they should wear it.
It may never come to that but one thing is for sure and that is that the temtpation for politicians who never lost by underestimating the mendacity of their voters and who would like if possible to preserve the myth of the land of the brave/free will be huge.
If they can pull another MIA scam as an excuse for not paying up, they will.
Posted by: Debs is dead | Jun 15 2005 3:57 utc | 61
Debs is Dead,
You flatter the American occupation too much. Don’t you hear them claiming to fix it as they are continually screwing it up? The occupation is incompetent. Your ‘stay the course/help the Iraqi government/fix what you broke ‘ solution is their excuse to pillage and destroy more Iraqui lives. Let somebody else pillage and destroy. Americans have done enough damage. Somebody else put it more bluntly: the rapist cannot be the one to console the rape victim.
I did not support this war. I do not want one more dime of US taxes financing it. I do not want any more responsibility for the gawdawful actions of my government in Iraq. OUT OUT OUT. NOW.
Posted by: gylangirl | Jun 15 2005 4:49 utc | 62
Thought #1. The US has no history of compromise. (Unlike Europe.) They win, they occasionally lose (then go in denial), but they don’t compromise. That’s why they’re sure to go down in flames.
Thought #2. My pessimism/self-hating is purely driven by survival; I’d like all my friends to be inside lifeboats when the Titanic sinks now that iceberg has hit. Nothing more. I’m the guy screaming, “get inside the boats, you fool”. Maybe I’m wrong and the ship won’t sink, but right now that’s the way I see it. Nothing more.
Thought #3. We here (in the US) talk. The Iraqis act. Despite the growing PR disaster can anyone point out a real defeat for the fascists? The steamroller goes on. Latest: Ahnold is trying to destroy California. The very fact that he MIGHT succeed is scary beyond belief. I feel powerless beyond words.
Posted by: Lupin | Jun 15 2005 6:31 utc | 63
Spengler, as usual, makes some acute observations
here
and, as usual, probably infuriates most of his readers.
Posted by: Hannah K. O’Luthon | Jun 15 2005 7:42 utc | 64
WaPo: Kurdish Officials Sanction Abductions in Kirkuk
KIRKUK, Iraq — Police and security units, forces led by Kurdish political parties and backed by the U.S. military, have abducted hundreds of minority Arabs and Turkmens in this intensely volatile city and spirited them to prisons in Kurdish-held northern Iraq, according to U.S. and Iraqi officials, government documents and families of the victims.
Seized off the streets of Kirkuk or in joint U.S.-Iraqi raids, the men have been transferred secretly and in violation of Iraqi law to prisons in the Kurdish cities of Irbil and Sulaymaniyah, sometimes with the knowledge of U.S. forces. The detainees, including merchants, members of tribal families and soldiers, have often remained missing for months; some have been tortured, according to released prisoners and the Kirkuk police chief.
Think of Iraq as a military base with a very large oil reserve underneath; you cant ask for better than that.
Fred Gheit
Wall Street oil analyst
What is our oil doing under their sand ?
Bumper Sticker
Posted by: Outraged | Jun 15 2005 10:19 utc | 66
Perhaps if the invaders fund the cost of righting the wrongs and get the job done by people who are not considered invaders and in fact restimulate the economy of a country where currently the only paying jobs involve working for the oppressor bugger all people will die. And here is another thought. If the average US/UK citizen has to pay the cost of this they will be reluctant to pull this one again. I for one am sick of people describing the Indochinese horror as an unneccessary loss of US lives. That was the attitude expressed by the vast majority of US political leaders very soon after Vietnam. Hell they still hassle silly Jane Fonda for making the mistake of pointing out that US bombs were killing civilians. A lot of people consider that the MIA BS was reason enough not to pay reparations. You know I am unaware of any MIA’s having been found alive anywhere apart from some suburban rambo’s wet dream.
If I sound strident I aplogise and I don’t intend to “die in a ditch on this issue” as the union hacks say.
I do think that if no-one starts talking about this then we will end up with a lot more unneccessary Iraqi deaths from either civil war/power grabs or lack of infastructure continuing to balloon the mortality rates.
People can be sold on this even if they are that selfish. It’s probably no coincidence that the promised assistance to Afghanistan post Soviet was never delivered. No coincidence that some of the people turned to extremism that is.
That Spengler article above is a good example of the move to blame the people for living on top of oil and throwing up yer hands in despair when the best efforts at selfishness and greed by the West have failed.
Posted by: Debs is dead | Jun 15 2005 10:51 utc | 67
Army Adds Larceny to Charges Against Soldier
A soldier at Ft. Stewart who refused to go to Iraq for a second tour will be court-martialed for accepting unearned combat pay, despite an Army investigator’s conclusion that an accounting error was to blame.
Larceny charges were added against Sgt. Kevin Benderman, 40, who was awaiting trial on charges that included desertion. The larceny charges raise the possible penalty from seven years to 17. A trial date has not been set.
Good discussion on Boston NPR On Point:
Is Iraq Unwinnable?
Guests
·Tom Lasseter, Baghdad correspondent, Knight Ridder Newspapers
·Bryan Bender, reporter, The Boston Globe
·Rod Nordland, correspondent-at-large and former Baghdad Bureau Chief, Newsweek
·(Ret) General Bernard Trainor, three-star general in the Marine Corps, former Deputy Chief of Staff for plans, policies and operations and Marine Corps Deputy to the Joint Chiefs of Staff, author of “The Generals’ War: The Inside Story of the Persian Gulf War”
What is our oil doing under their sand?
In the original German, it was “Lebensraum.”
Posted by: Billmon | Jun 15 2005 14:20 utc | 71
Police and security units, forces led by Kurdish political parties and backed by the U.S. military, have abducted hundreds of minority Arabs and Turkmens in this intensely volatile city and spirited them to prisons in Kurdish-held northern Iraq, according to U.S. and Iraqi officials, government documents and families of the victims.
Pretty soon it will be a conservative bumper sticker: Support Our Death Squads
Posted by: Billmon | Jun 15 2005 14:22 utc | 72
Moral Imperialism
I cannot, for the life of me, figure out why it is more offensive for a national guerrilla resistance to send a suicide bomber on a mission to target a collaborator police station, where the attack kills two civilians in its execution, than for a warplane from a $500 billion a year imperial military to reduce entire city blocks with uranium munitions (i.e. 30mm depleted uranium (DU) shells from A-10’s, etc) and calls everyone who is killed or wounded terrorists, or insurgents.
And if anyone wants to know who is targeting mosques, and so on, the first place to look is at Rummys special P2OG outfit, and to the Badr militias – who are aiming to become Uncle Sams surrogate death squads. The Badr militias, by the way, hang out with precisely the same people as the vaunted IFTU.
Were this kind of hypocrisy not maddening enough, there is an equally twisted construction that determines the legitimacy of an attack by a series of ideological litmus tests. What is the resistances position on burkhas? We should be asking what is the occupiers position on pornography? Talk about taking the beam out of ones own eye.
There is so much plain western racism tucked away in this bullshit – carefully concealed under expressions of deep concern, of course – but this is ‘White Mans Burden’, and there is no escaping it. WE are the enlightened ones who will teach civilization – even progressive civilization – to those poor, dusky, benighted beings.
Posted by: Outraged | Jun 15 2005 14:39 utc | 73
D’Oh ! The above should be attributed to Stan Goff, Vietnam Vet, Special Forces, Veterans for Peace …
Posted by: Outraged | Jun 15 2005 14:48 utc | 74
DCMediagirl has a great post up today re a letter from a certain “Lawrence” from August 22, 1920:
The people of England have been led in Mesopotamia into a trap from which it will be hard to escape with dignity and honour. They have been tricked into it by a steady withholding of information. The Baghdad communiques are belated, insincere, incomplete. Things have been far worse than we have been told, our administration more bloody and inefficient than the public knows. It is a disgrace to our imperial record, and may soon be too inflamed for any ordinary cure. We are to-day not far from a disaster.
Thanks to NEPA Jim, a denizen at ASZ. I hadn’t seen this one before.
Posted by: FlashHarry | Jun 15 2005 16:01 utc | 75
This thread has continued to stick to its America vs. Iraq morality play, with disdain for the ground truth equal to that of any neo con. Death squads are not good. Death squads (the American Negroponte brand) are targetting death squads. I doubt their batting average is 100% or that there is much clarity of intelligence on the ground.
For feeling Holier than thou it is is great for Iraq to be an actor, but the ground truth is other. Whoever reduces Iraq to that morality play doesn’t give a damn about actual people. If they can show they marched and protested and did all they could when Iraquis were being slaughtered by the State, and kids were being thrown into a hamburger grinder with Iran, I will make an exception. But, I don’t believe there will be many exceptions.
Posted by: Anonymous | Jun 15 2005 18:07 utc | 76