Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
June 7, 2005
Open Thread 05-54

News, views, opinions …

Comments

good morning bernhard.things have indeed picked up around here to need a new open thread more than once a week.i’m just soaking it up.i love our blog.have you and jerome decided to put revamping on the back burner?or are there changes comming?

Posted by: onzaga | Jun 7 2005 7:39 utc | 1

Things have already changed – some bigger, like the logo, some small and subtle. What`s left to do for now is a tweak on the logo, the messed up preview page and a blogroll page. I had more in mind, but as folks here are all-out conservative, I will hold back for now.
I would like more postings from readers at MoA. Feel free to send me your writings, art pieces etc. The email address is MoonofA_at_aol.com

Posted by: b | Jun 7 2005 8:02 utc | 2

I wonder what Razor would think of these medieval military tactics?

Authorities in Mosul are building a giant ditch around the city in a bid to guard it against car bombs.
Mosul, 400 km north of Baghdad, has recently seen an upsurge in insurgency activity and a hike in roadside and car bombs.
“The construction of the ditch has started. It will be like a security wall around the city to prevent the entry of car bombs and infiltrators,” said Khasro Koran, Mosul’s deputy governor.
The city of nearly two million people will be ringed by moat that will make it impossible for cars and people to enter and leave unless through guarded highways connecting it to the outside world.
Checkpoints and roadblocks will be erected on these highways to monitor movement of people and vehicles, said Koran.
“The ditch will be deep and wide enough to ensure that no vehicle will be able to cross,” Koran added.

Great use of reconstruction funds eh?

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Jun 7 2005 8:14 utc | 3

A medieval mote. I’m laughing cynically.
Rummy’s dreams of technological invincibility complementing moral superiority!
I always said the US army had a cognitive deficit. They don’t understand territory – except in a traditional battle-plan sense.

Posted by: Noisette | Jun 7 2005 8:27 utc | 4

MOAT, scusi!

Posted by: Noisette | Jun 7 2005 8:28 utc | 5

Hey b, we’re not Conservative Across the Board, just in matters of decor!!
This kind of change I’m all for:
1) As many of you may know, we’ve so over-used anti-biotics – dumping it by the ton into animal feed so they can be raised in horridly unsanitary conditions etc, prescribing them for the flu virus for which they do nothing, etc. & in general using it like a Communion Wafer – that we’re creating anti-biotic resistant bacteria… . So their days are numbered, as would ours if we didn’t find a replacement in time…Today comes this Fantastic News From Hebrew University that they’ve found another approach to controlling bacteria – disrupting their communication system.
2) Although America has to lead the world in Shit Production, it’s Canada that has pioneered new way of Turning Shit Into Energy & other valuable by-products. They now have a plant online.
And while I’m on this kick, did everyone see the news last week that a guy – American for a change – found a way to get up to 120mpg from his Honda Hybrid that comes from the factory getting up to 50mpg. He works in the field of cryogenics, so he froze the engine w/liquid nitrogen. He figures the car should now have a lifespan of 600k-1M miles. (I wonder about the electrical system.) A local dealership is having him freeze brake rotors for them & it’s now being used on the car-racing circuit. Definitely Cool!!

Posted by: jj | Jun 7 2005 8:31 utc | 6

There is an Airbus / Boing subsidy WTO case coming pitching Europe against the U.S.. This WaPo article comes in handy for the Europeans and for the U.S. taxpayers:
E-Mails Detail Air Force Push for Boeing Deal

For the past three years, the Air Force has described its $30 billion proposal to convert passenger planes into military refueling tankers and lease them from Boeing Co. as an efficient way to obtain aircraft the military urgently needs.
But a very different account of the deal is shown in an August 2002 internal e-mail exchange among four senior Pentagon officials.
“We all know that this is a bailout for Boeing,” Ronald G. Garant, an official of the Pentagon comptroller’s office, said in a message to two others in his office and then-Deputy Undersecretary of Defense Wayne A. Schroeder. “Why don’t we just bite the bullet,” he asked, and handle the acquisition like the procurement of a 1970s-era aircraft — by squeezing the manufacturer to provide a better tanker at a decent cost?
“We didn’t need those aircraft either, but we didn’t screw the taxpayer in the process,” Garant added, referring to widespread sentiment at the Pentagon that the proposed lease of Boeing 767s would cost too much for a plane with serious shortcomings.

In the copy of the report obtained by The Washington Post, 45 sections were deleted by the White House counsel’s office to obscure what several sources described as references to White House involvement in the lease negotiations and its interaction with Boeing. The Pentagon separately blacked out 64 names and many e-mails. It also omitted the names of members of Congress, including some who pressured the Pentagon to back the deal.

Posted by: b | Jun 7 2005 8:41 utc | 7

That’s a really cool story on the boeing deal. The bit I like the best is the way the repugs have found a role for women in senior positions. They are there to take the fall. Everyman and his dog was pushing this deal from the whitehouse to half the Air Force but the only person who goes to jail is the woman Darlene A. Druyun. Reminds me of something else…. I know Abu Graib! Now I’m worried does that mean the lovely Condy is gonna have to take one for the boss? Hard to imagine Dr Rice going quietly. There would have to be a real big earner in it later.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Jun 7 2005 9:57 utc | 8

From Watergate to Downing Street — Lying for War.
The only moral alternative today is to be anti-America.

Posted by: Lupin | Jun 7 2005 10:45 utc | 9

“The only moral alternative today is to be anti-America.”
You’re a quitter.

Posted by: slothrop | Jun 7 2005 14:48 utc | 10

@slothrop. How is saying that one must oppose America (and its works) being a quitter?
No compromise, no surrender.
What’s *your* alternative?

Posted by: Anonymous | Jun 7 2005 15:51 utc | 11

Cause and Effect?:
GM Cutting 25,000 U.S. Jobs
MARKETS: 11:34am ET, 06/07
DJIA +94.74 10,561.77 +0.91
NAS +15.67 2,091.43 +0.75
S&P +10.39 1,207.90 +0.87

Posted by: Buster | Jun 7 2005 16:02 utc | 12

It’s a luxury for the expat to demand “anti-americanism” as the only reasonable response to Bush-fascism. Good for you, Lupin. Some of us cannot leave, or prefer, as American citizens, to struggle against this fascism.

Posted by: slothrop | Jun 7 2005 16:05 utc | 13

@CP:
Student of history that you are, you know that it doesn’t end with moats.
A great city needs great walls for protection too.
Could be a good public works project for the Iraqis. Better than bombing the crap out of them, anyway.
But the blubbering idiot Rumsfeld will probably farm out the work to contract firms and workers at 4 times the cost.
If only the pharoahs had had Haliburton.

Posted by: Spanky Ham | Jun 7 2005 16:09 utc | 14

Then there will be wall gaps and moat gaps, etc.
Maybe the insurgents will build walls too, and we can recreate one of Caesar’s more interesting victories.
I’ll stop now.

Posted by: Spanky Ham | Jun 7 2005 16:16 utc | 15

Night-and-Fog Decree
——————————————————————–
The President and Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces
[stamp] SECRET

Directives for the prosecution of offences committed within the occupied territories against the American State or the occupying power, of December 7th, 2001.
Within the occupied territories, terrorist elements and other circles hostile to America have increased their efforts against the American State and the occupying powers since the Afghanistan campaign started. The amount and the danger of these machinations oblige us to take severe measures as a deterrent. First of all the following directives are to be applied:
I. Within the occupied territories, the adequate punishment for offences committed against the American State or the occupying power which endanger their security or a state of readiness is on principle the death penalty.
II. The offences listed in paragraph I as a rule are to be dealt with in the occupied countries only if it is probable that sentence of death will be passed upon the offender, at least the principal offender, and if the trial and the execution can be completed in a very short time. Otherwise the offenders, at least the principal offenders, are to be taken to Abu Ghraib, Guam, Guantanamo Bay et al or to foreign countries under extra-ordinary rendition.
III. Prisoners taken to Abu Ghraib, Guam, Guantanamo Bay et al and foreign countries under extra-ordinary rendition are subjected to military procedure only if particular military interests require this. In case American or foreign authorities inquire about such prisoners, they are to be told that they were arrested, but that the proceedings do not allow any further information.
IV. The Military Commanders and Other Government Agencies in the occupied territories and the Military Justice authorities within the framework of their jurisdiction, are personally responsible for the observance of this decree.
V. The Secretary of Defence with the advice of the Chief of the Armed Forces determines in which occupied territories this decree is to be applied. He is authorized to explain and to issue executive orders and supplements. The Attorney-General will issue executive orders within his own jurisdiction.

Original (unedited) Source found here:

United States,
Office of United States Chief of Counsel for Prosecution of Axis Criminality,
Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression, 8 vols. and 2 suppl. vols.
VII, 873-874 (Doc. No. L-90)
Washington, DC : Government Printing Office, 1946-1948

Posted by: Outraged | Jun 7 2005 16:31 utc | 16

Lupin is right that Bushie and the rethug machine is full of liars. But I am with slothrop. I am sticking it out aand fight the fascist rethugs. They are really starting to sink themmselves. The polls show US citizens are fed up with the lies. They believe the economy, Iraq, SS and about everything else is on the wrong track under Bushie.
You can only lie to the public so much and send only so many mixed messages and the public will find you out. I am now seeing rethugs voters not even try to defend Bushie. Before the election they defended him tooth and nail, now I hear hardly a peep. Many right wing bloggers are going “what the f—” these guys are nuts. I really think the Schaivo case was the turning point where the public discovered we’re living in wingnut land.
Where am I wrong?

Posted by: jdp | Jun 7 2005 16:45 utc | 17

You can say what every you like about President Nixon but at least he saw reality and had a plan to deal with Vietnam. Of course he lied but at least he was sane enough to know he was lying as he withdrew American troops, bombed SE Asia and promoted Vietnamization. The stress was enough to make even a Quaker paranoid.
Now that the Bush Administration illusion of invading Iraq, setting up a neo-colony and then marching off to Syria and Iran has proven farcical all they are left to do is spew forth propaganda and spin new Iranian fantasies of the Mullahs being overthrown once the bombing campaign begins. Meanwhile, President Bush struts around like a winner because he actually believes Democracy is flowering in Iraq.

Posted by: Jim S | Jun 7 2005 16:50 utc | 18

On December 7, 2001, President Bush issued the Night and Fog Decree.
This decree replaced the unsuccessful administration policy of taking hostages to undermine terrorist/insurgent activities. Suspected insurgents and others would now vanish without a trace into the night and fog.
The Directors of the CIA and FBI issued the following instructions:

“After lengthy consideration, it is the will of the President that the measures taken against those who are guilty of offenses against America or against the occupation forces in occupied areas should be altered. The President is of the opinion that in such cases penal servitude or even a hard labor sentence for life will be regarded as a sign of weakness. An effective and lasting deterrent can be achieved only by the death penalty or by taking measures which will leave the family and the population uncertain as to the fate of the offender. Deportation to Abu Ghraib, Guam, Guantanamo Bay et al and foreign countries under extra-ordinary rendition serves this purpose.”

Secretary of Defence Rumsfeld issued a letter stating:

“Efficient and enduring intimidation can only be achieved either by capital punishment or by measures by which the relatives of the criminals do not know the fate of the criminal. The prisoners are, in future, to be transported to Abu Ghraib, Guam, Guantanamo Bay et al and foreign countries under extra-ordinary rendition secretly, and further treatment of the offenders will take place there; these measures will have a deterrent effect because”-
A. The prisoners will vanish without a trace.
B. No information may be given as to their whereabouts or their fate.”

The victims were usually arrested in the middle of the night and quickly taken to prisons hundreds or even thousands of miles away for questioning and torture, eventually arriving at the ‘indefinite’ detention camps, if they survived.
Original (unedited) Source found here:

Posted by: Outraged | Jun 7 2005 16:57 utc | 19

Night and Fog Decree – Unarguably War Crimes – CIA ‘Ghost Detainees’

Army Says C.I.A. Hid More Iraqis Than It Claimed
By ERIC SCHMITT and DOUGLAS JEHL
WASHINGTON, Sept. 9 2004 – Army jailers in Iraq, acting at the Central Intelligence Agency’s request, kept dozens of detainees at Abu Ghraib prison and other detention facilities off official rosters to hide them from Red Cross inspectors, two senior Army generals said Thursday. The total is far more than had been previously reported.
An Army inquiry completed last month found eight documented cases of so-called ghost detainees, but two of the investigating generals said in testimony before two Congressional committees and interviews Thursday that depositions from military personnel who served at the prison indicated that the real total was many times a higher.
The number is in the dozens, to perhaps up to 100,” Gen. Paul J. Kern, the senior officer who oversaw the Army inquiry, told the Senate Armed Services Committee. Another investigator, Maj. Gen. George R. Fay, put the figure at “two dozen or so,” but both officers said they could not give a precise number because no records were kept on most of the C.I.A. detainees …

Full NYT article here::
It’s been more than a year since the Abu Ghraib photo’s were made public and the CIA Inspector-General has yet to finish any report or investigation and no action has been evidenced against the above congressional testimony re ‘Ghost Detainee’s’ … No one has been charged … whilst Bush calls the Amnesty International Human Rights report absurd (re a Gulag) …
We no longer live in a Democracy because the State and its agents are demonstrably above the Rule of Law …

Posted by: Outraged | Jun 7 2005 17:27 utc | 20

Lest anyone think the State Political Police aren’t watching web postings, Prof. Mark Crispin Miller was visited by 3 FBI agents as a result of postings on yahoo! Link

Posted by: jj | Jun 7 2005 18:19 utc | 21

@jj
His actions were almost precisely correct. Unless FBI agents have a warrant, say nothing and do not allow yourself to be drawn into any discussion. Under such circumstances simply provide contact details for your legal counsel and politely/promptly terminate the conversation.
Under no circumstances voluntarily (i.e. no warrant) grant/invite said agents into your premises, no matter how discourteous this may feel … such entry will invariably be used by the agents to gather Profile info about the subject (you).
Sorry to sound paranoid, but in ‘civil order’ issues re the FBI thats just the way it is … often intimidation/fishing expeditions … our ‘Democratic’ version of the KGB …

Posted by: Outraged | Jun 7 2005 18:40 utc | 22

The slothrop/Lupin exchanges (above) have touched on something that has been scraping away at my mind a lot recently and I thought this would be an appropriate forum to raise this issue.
Because I have maintained a very vocal and consistent opposition to the invasion of Iraq, I was recently invited to participate in a planned anti-war demonstration this coming September. When I asked about why they were planning to march on Washington and hold picket signs at this time, I was told that it was because “People have stopped talking about the war”.
After an exchange in an open thread on this site, Alabama pointed out (correctly, in my view) that this, in itself, might not be such a bad thing. Everyone is aware of the war, and if those who supported it are not braying in the streets like bipedal jackasses about what a great thing it is, it could indicate that even erstwhile supporters of American fascism are losing faith in its efficacy. This point was conceded by my friend, but they decided to go ahead with their demonstration anyway because of the principle involved (a principle with which I do not, necessarily, disagree).
My question now is how harmful is this kind of activism and what would be smarter ways of going about it? If the Right (let’s just call them that for simplicity’s sake) are becoming quietly disillusioned, won’t they simply become more firmly entrenched in their positions when the increasingly obvious shortcomings in their political beliefs are pointed out to them by their despised peers on the Left? Won’t well-intentioned demonstrators be more likely to just irritate an open wound and perpetuate these bad decisions than to facilitate genuine thoughtfulness and dialogue?
The American Right has been far more concerned with style than substance, and it has served them well. The American Left, on the other hand, has been tremendously naive in believing that just letting the facts speak for themselves is enough and that the average NASCAR fan will be as outraged by war atrocities, loss of civil liberties and illegal activities as they, themselves, are. What this has done since the 1960’s is allowed the Right to paint activists with the broad strokes of being over-educated, unrealistic, effete malcontents (in the best cases, they are “dirty hippies” en masse). This is the popular consensus, like it or not. Rush Limbaugh, who says absolutely nothing, has a much wider, more consistent and active following than Michael Moore, Al Franken and Ralph Nader put together.
The questions that have been bothering me, and which I will put to this group, are simply: Can activism be done intelligently and effectually? Can dissent be made to be viewed as patriotic? Or, as I am beginning to suspect, can people only be manipulated to act against their own interests or in harmful ways against “others”?

Posted by: Monolycus | Jun 7 2005 18:56 utc | 23

outraged you are correct to make the connection to nacht et nabel. so much of what the empire does is resonant with the nazi powers it has inherited
good counsel re counsel also
i’d suggest to people here to read raul hilberg’s magisterial work – the destruction of european jewry & also the work of the psychiatrist robert jay lifton because their texts show with terrible resonance that our times, these times – have been lived before
that we are living even filtered forms of it should create outrage & resistance
any other option is that of silence & that of silence is complicity

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 7 2005 19:00 utc | 24

no, monolycus – you need to risk tearing the whole house down.
people are being massacred. people are being tortured. dreams & desires are being bent upon a wheel
silence in face of that is more than complicity it is criminal because it presumes that certain people’s lives are of no merit, let alone their culture, nation & civilisation
that youtr country is not in revolt to that quotidian crimes – that are happening on your own territory – is beyond me – & as outraged & others indicate – the only other historical parallel is that of germany 1933-45

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 7 2005 19:06 utc | 25

“Can activism be done intelligently and effectually? Can dissent be made to be viewed as patriotic”
The draft provoked mass demonstrations against Vietnam. What is needed more than ever is a draft. This will force democratic “leaders” like Sen. Clinton et al. to oppose the war.

Posted by: slothrop | Jun 7 2005 19:20 utc | 26

these people are fools. dangerous fools. who do they think are the iraquis. an article from the sydney morning herald (sorry – a cut & paste)
A brutal death in Baghdad’s gridlock
By Paul McGeough Chief Herald Correspondent in Baghdad
June 8, 2005
Chris Ahmelman … died after being shot at least three times.
In the last terrible minutes of his life, the world Chris Ahmelman and his buddies thought they knew so well collapsed in confusion, chaos and – for three of them – death.
The Australian security contractor was pinned down with seven others near Baghdad International Airport. They did not even know where the insurgency fire was coming from – and they made too many mistakes as skill and instinct deserted them.
Ordinarily, the war in Iraq moves so fast that back-tracking to ask “how?” and “why?” can be difficult. But James Yeager, an American colleague of Ahmelman who survived the attack, has written a chilling seven-page account that is being passed around in Baghdad.
As they set out for the airport from the Edinburgh Risk and Security Management bunker on May 20 it would have been difficult to disguise their convoy – a bullet-proof Mercedes and two soft-skin BMWs. But their 20-plus weapons were out of sight and they hoped their Arab dress would let them blend in among the locals.
However, seeming to be local backfired when they came to a US-manned barrier at the scene of yet another roadside bombing. They looked so local that they risked drawing friendly fire if they attempted to move up to shelter under the American guns.
So they sat in no man’s land, chit-chatting by radio as they willed on the Americans to reopen the road before their cover was blown.
As Yeager explains it, every member of a private security detail has his assigned tasks and his AOR (area of responsibility) which is allocated as though the convoy is at the centre of the clock. Yeager was driving Car 1 and his AOR was 8 to 12 o’clock, roughly the top-left quarter of the dial.
Ahmelman, 34, was the driver of Car 3. With him were Jay Hunt, his rear gunner, whose AOR was 3 to 9 o’clock; and the overall team leader Al Johnson, whose AOR was 12 to 3 o’clock.
But then, as Yeager tells it, Johnson suddenly and quite bizarrely alighted from Car 3, firing bursts from his MP5 submachine-gun into the air. Yeager suggests that, subsequently, Johnson told him he had been trying to warn off Iraqi motorists banking up behind them. But apart from neglecting his own AOR, Johnson had pretty well blown any cover they had left; every Iraqi and any insurgency “dicker” – or lookout – on a nearby slip road, now had to know a Western private security detail was stranded on the highway.
Frightened that the Americans at the bomb site up the road would look in their direction and see what they thought was an Iraqi firing into the air, Yeager decided it was best to whip off his Arab disguise – thereby revealing his identity to the Iraqis around him in the traffic.
They had been directly under a highway overpass, but after 10 minutes they edged the cars forward about 100 metres.
The engines were still running and, in Yeager’s case, Car 1 was in neutral and the emergency brake was on.
Ian Harris, the marksman in Car 2, was the first to notice the small white sedan on a slip road running parallel to the highway and about 75 metres away from it.
Yeager writes: “He asked that someone look at it – Mark (in Car 1) had a telescopic sight. He said it was parked; the sole occupant was talking on the phone; wasn’t paying attention to us, wasn’t a threat. I said aloud: ‘He’s a f—ing dicker!”‘
The shooting erupted in less than five minutes. Yeager writes: “I thought to myself, what the f— is Johno (Johnson, the team leader) shooting at now? [But] then I felt rounds hitting the car and I heard the distinctive supersonic crack of a round as it passed right through the car. It was inches from my face. Stef Surette yelled ‘I’m hit’.”
Yeager says that in the minutes before the attack, the other two in his car – medic and vehicle commander Surette and rear gunner and medic Mark Collen – saw what appeared to be classic insurgency pre-positioning for a drive-by shooting: a big white SUV with tinted windows rolled down the slip-road, did a U-turn and returned to face the security team.
Collen saw the passenger window was down, but he dismissed it as a potential threat as he concentrated on his own AOR. Yeager was becoming exasperated: “There were two other people with AORs in which the attack came from. They were in Cars 2 and 3, and nobody reported anything.”
But then Yeager slipped up himself, which he admits with disarming honesty. Deciding it was time to get out of the area, he hit the accelerator, but the car would not move.
Thinking the engine had taken a hit, he immediately did what he was supposed to do in such circumstances – abandon the vehicle. It was only as he hit the dirt that he remembered: he was not in an automatic. He had put the BMW in neutral and engaged the emergency brake.
Yeager does not use the word panic, but readers might draw their own conclusion. “I moved to the right wheel. I wanted to kill the terrorists but nobody had told me direction, description or distance. If I couldn’t make hits I was sure going to make noise.”
Then Yeager saw that Collen had followed his lead and he too had abandoned Car 1. Yeager decided to become a smaller target by getting right away from the vehicle.
He ran and sprawled on the edge of the median strip, shooting at the houses beyond the slip road but “feeling useless” because he still did not know where the shooting came from.
Sporadic gunfire from Cars 2 and 3 caused him to believe that his other five colleagues were still in this fight against an unseen enemy, but then: “I looked at Car 3 and I saw Jay Hunt [the rear gunner] with blood all over his crotch. I heard him calmly telling [the team leader] Johno: ‘I’m hit in the femoral, buddy’.
“Jay slid towards the front of the car so that Johno could apply first aid from behind the safety of the engine block. I looked at Chris [Ahmelman] – he was still in the driver’s seat, slumped lifelessly towards the door. Car 2 was OK. Stef was out of Car 1. I didn’t realise the extent of his injuries, but he was going down.”
At this stage Yeager says he got no reply when he yelled: “Who are we shooting at?”
They tried to move Car 2 to cover the medic Mark Collen as he treated Stef Surette’s wounds. But unlike Car 1, it was knocked out of action. Yeager, who describes himself as a “12-year cop” without military experience, went to Car 3. “Johno was working frantically on Jay’s injuries – calling for help. He was trying to cover 360 degrees and work on Jay at the same time. Jay was still breathing, but his respirations were becoming laboured.”
It was over in a flash – most of the noise had been their own chaotic response to the carefully placed shots of an insurgency marksman who had long fled the scene.
The Americans arrived and took control of the mop-up, ordering Yeager to retrieve Ahmelman’s body from the white BMW.
“He began to fall out as I opened the door. I caught him, but as I pulled him out, the car started to roll forward – it was going to crush Jay. I had to drop Chris’s body, and run around the opposite side of the car, to get in.
“Chris was wounded through the leg first. But instead of [trying to get away from the cars], he spent the last seconds of his life telling Johno about it [until] he took another round through the throat and another through his head.”
Jay Hunt and Stef Surette died from their injuries in a US combat hospital.

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 7 2005 19:23 utc | 27

University demos are more sustained and confrontational, because students have less to lose and more to gain than average citizens congregating every now and then in solidarity against war.

Posted by: slothrop | Jun 7 2005 19:25 utc | 28

@rememberinggiap
I am not arguing about the monstrosity of what my government is doing to people the world over (including its own citizens, per the cases of José Padilla or the actions of an American Gestapo that jj and Outraged have just described). I am also not making an argument to turn a blind eye to it all.
My questions are about efficacy and not engaging in the selfsame destructive behaviours to which I am opposed. I am sorry, but “fighting fire with fire” is too hypocritical a stand for me to take. I oppose inhumanity, and I will not come close to correcting inhumanity by behaving inhumanely.
If we want to use the 1933-1945 Deutschland model of how things are playing out, what use is joining Die Weiße Rose? As noble and well-intentioned as they were… they died (!) and the sum total of their actions to halt or redress what went on was nil. Actually, in one sense, their public executions contributed to the Nazi war effort since it served to cow and intimidate others who were might wish to speak or act against things. If you wanted to make an argument that they were “criminally complicit” with the Nazis by allowing themselves to be killed by them, there is room to do so and unfocused opposition lends itself to that interpretation.
remembereringgiap, we have the same fundamental goals. We are in agreement that what is going on can only be described as an atrocity. But your response is indicative of what I was describing in my earlier post. I could be offended by your suggestion that I am “complicit and criminal” by not racing off half-cocked, but that would merely further divide people who should be pursuing a common goal.
Let me establish something: I am extremely poor. I have nothing to protect and no reason to wish to preserve my own life or liberty… even the notion of being tortured in a far-flung gulag does not hold a great deal of terror for me. But I will not throw away either life or liberty simply to make a statement if that statement will make no difference (or worse, be counterproductive to my cause).
I am not saying that nothing should be done. I am saying that whatever is done should be efficacious and ethically consistent. Grabbing a pitchfork and a torch and storming the palace in St. Petersburg in 1917 seemed like a great idea to a Bolshevik reactionary… and only paved the way for the atrocities of Stalin.
We are intelligent people, surely we can find an intelligent solution?

Posted by: Monolycus | Jun 7 2005 19:55 utc | 29

m
Die Weiße Rose in part cleaned some of the shit off the spirit of the german nation. theirs was not a useless exercise
the red orchestra who were also killed – were called by goering – the worth of 100 divisions with the intelligence work they carried out; at least some of the success of the strategy of the russian armies must be credited to their intelligence
so resistance – even if it seems solitary – is not mimicking the monster nor is it necessarily ineffective
you know i was neither calling you complicit or criminal – i was simply inferring that the crimes of your elites have gone beyond any reasonable point of return. they have to be stopped by any means necessary. impeachment. defeat. resistance. treason

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 7 2005 20:15 utc | 30

Is this back to the future?
Student Expectations

Posted by: Fran | Jun 7 2005 20:22 utc | 31

Not to detract from the emphasis on this open thread, but more on the state of the US economy and the balance of trade deficit. I think at least b will be interested.
The graphs in the article speak loudly.
The US Trade Deficit is Unsustainable by Bud Conrad, Jun 2, 2005 at 321Gold.com. Scroll down to the third article on this page The US Trade Deficit is Unsustainable where the complete article is accessible.
Note: this is an indirect link. For some unknown reason the graphs wouldn’t load when I used the direct link and previewed it from MoA.

Posted by: Juannie | Jun 7 2005 20:24 utc | 32

Thanks Juannie – nice graphs indeed.

Posted by: b | Jun 7 2005 20:47 utc | 33

Further to the trade deficit-
This time it’s personal.

Posted by: biklett | Jun 7 2005 20:52 utc | 34

A Sunni Arab politician claimed Tuesday that two insurgent groups were willing to negotiate with the Shiite-led government, a disclosure that comes after reports that the government had opened indirect channels to some insurgents. Ayham Al-Samarie, a former Cabinet minister, told The Associated Press the two groups make up 50 percent of the Sunni-dominated insurgency.
Sunni Resitance Winning

Posted by: Friendly Fire | Jun 7 2005 21:12 utc | 35

@Juannie & biklett
Thanks for the links … interesting articles, respectively and in thier own unique way … 😉

Posted by: Outraged | Jun 7 2005 21:13 utc | 36

@biklett – what could compensate for those imports would be exports on that theme from the movie industry. Unfortunatly U.S. movies in this genre, while plenty, are a. boring and b. racist – so no luck here.

Posted by: b | Jun 7 2005 21:19 utc | 37

@ff – the U.S. has NO interest in a strong unified Iraqi government. It will therefore take care that any talks between the insurgency and the government will fail. The U.S. government needs an Iraq divided into bantustans to be able pressure for control of the resources.
As soon as there would be a meeting between the government and some insurgency groups, CIA or DoD bombs would go off and would be blamed on Emanuel Zarqawi.

Posted by: b | Jun 7 2005 21:28 utc | 38

fran
the bob jonesuniversity link enough to gie me the willies
i’m certainly going to have hitcockian dreams tonight featuring bob jones & several members of the music & prelaw faculties
roaming their site is like being on acid

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 7 2005 21:35 utc | 39

fran
the bob jonesuniversity link enough to give me the willies
i’m certainly going to have hitchcockian dreams tonight featuring bob jones & several members of the music & prelaw faculties
roaming their site is like being on acid

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 7 2005 21:38 utc | 40

@ Friendly Fire
A very weak article indeed … I would’nt read too much into it …
@b
There are a variety of indicators that at least some of the more blatant inter-ethnic, inter-faith civilian only attacks, particularly Shia mosques may well be Black Ops to encourage division, strife and internecine conflict for the reasons you state … and also as it bolsters the motivation of the Iraqi Police and Army units now being methodically deployed outside thier communities, i.e. Shia troops in Sunni locales and vice versa, not to mention Kurds (Peshmerga) … divide & rule has certainly been a strategy in such circumstances around the globe since the days of the OSS and the British Empire before that …

Posted by: Outraged | Jun 7 2005 21:47 utc | 41

I’m not a US citizen and haven’t travelled to the US for a long time for the same reason I refused to travel to South Africa when it was under the apartheid regime. No this is not some sort of holier than thou boycott but simple self protection. In certain circumstances I am incapable of keeping my mouth shut. The innate friendliness and hospitality of americans always carried me through in the past but I couldn’t see how that would be in the current climate.
We need to be careful about criticism of the US as a culture. I’m a firm believer in the old people are people no matter where they come from ideal. This means that I don’t believe there is anything in particular about the US that makes it’s actions any different from any other bully boy that happens to be in control at the time. Giap it’s not worth getting down on this one but all of the European imperialist nations behaved appallingly during their time in the ‘sun’ and many of these practises still continue now in Africa. It’s cool to hate R Mugabe at the moment and he is an undemocratic tyrant but lets have no illusions about why he’s in strife. He is finally trying to give land back to the traditional owners. People who had been chased off their land and who were pushed aside in favor of more willing migrants when workers were required on the misappropriated farms. The foreign media hanging out at the Harare press club are rubbing shoulders with the white landowners not the fringe camp dwellers.
There is absolutely nothing to be gained by cursing the US and it’s citizens. All that does is reinforce the bunker mentality so evident last november.
I think the people best placed to effect a change are those still living in the country whose government is behaving so appallingly. Sometimes marching in the streets will be effective sometimes targetting particular corporate or political miscreants will be effective. The people on the ground will have to decide that. Violence may be appropriate but the problem with violence as a tool is that everybody gets diverted from the arguement to debate whether violence is OK and we end up with bullies on our side too.
People doing all of the planning and encouraging these injustices from within the US are motivated by greed. The best way to get them to stop is hit them in the pocket book. Find out whether Halliburtons have any corporations that sell consumerist goods and then find out what the biggest ‘earner’ is and start a campaign to target that. This is exactly what the internet is good for.
People like to imagine that South Africa was brought down by the global sanctions that many countries belatedly put in place. In fact that only happened after millions of ordinary people had self imposed sanctions. I remember berating a supermarket manager in front of his customers for having South African fish fillets in his freezer. As an individual act that probably did nothing but combined with millions of others doing the same thing it was effective. So effective that the WTO/GATT agreements now outlaw governments instigating boycotts against fellow signatories. They can’t sign a treaty to make us buy particular goods though and THAT is where action has to be instigated.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Jun 7 2005 22:10 utc | 42

Here’s To You Mrs. Robinson

Posted by: Spanky Ham | Jun 7 2005 22:45 utc | 43

Whatever our skills in the arts of writing and talking, Monolycus, we only talk to stones if the folks aren’t ready to hear. You know the problem only too well. My way of dealing with it is pretty obvious: I try to prepare for moments when folks are ready to listen (and time spent on the net is preparation of this kind), then talk about the war when others have raised the topic. Talking in a calm and well-informed manner can have a quietly powerful effect on the gathered company (small as that company may be), and folks are just full of surprises; I’m astonished by the things that people know and say about this war–nothing they learn from official sources, certainly.

Posted by: alabama | Jun 7 2005 22:50 utc | 44

Monolycus,
I basically agree with Debs but would like to add another thing. It is the total of actions that matters most, and that is something that is hardly ever controlable in a movement of any significant size. Demonstrations on the streets can in combination with a well informed good speaker at the water cooler cause the desired effect. Or not.
I think there might be a sort of “middle of the road – fair and balanced logic” working here. If someone fairly republican-leaning has seen a anti-war demonstration he (lets say it is a man) does now have a face on what anti-war people look like and he constructs a quick response to the slogans (“well how would you like to have been bombed by Saddam”). Then when alabama turns up with encyklopedical knowledge in the right moment alabama might be perceived as middle of the road from the lack of actually being in said road. Ok, mixed metaphors.
The thing is I have both been perceived as extremist and the pragmatic middle-of-the-road person and from my experience it has not depended on my position on any absolute scale, but on the existence or lack of existence of a more extreme alternative. And my experience is that when you find yourself in the extreme position you might as well run with it, propose your loftiest visions, throw fact-based insults at your enemies (“of course you think that it is well consistent with your power-grabbing past is it not?”), look strange and perhaps hammer your shoe in the table. As it is people will not rally around your position anyway so you can just as well create more room for your closest allies to be percieved as middle-of-the-road. I know I am always grateful when someone else moves the goalposts to my side. Important thing when you are not the extreme person is of course never to backstab your allies but keep a position of “well even if I do not support the immediate hanging of president Bush, though I understand why someone who has lost a family member in Iraq might. And how about those downing street memos?”.
In conclusion, I think demonstrations are generally good as they might move the goalposts to the left even though the decision of where to put your power at work always must be based on a case-by-case basis. And the strategy of moving the goalposts described above is of course one that has been used very efficiently by the american right.

Posted by: A swedish kind of death | Jun 7 2005 23:53 utc | 45

@ Monolycus, Debs, & alabama,
I’m more with alabama than Debs on this.
Immediately after 911 when I knew I had to get actively involved and do more, I joined a Boycott group that had links to international Boycott groups. Although there has been limited success it seems to have been sporadic and not sustained. Additionally we seemed not to be able to interest others to get involved although I know some local people who started to consciously boycott some of our major targets. We had ( I say had not have as I have since stopped active participation with the group) a web site, issued press released, and demonstrated/picketed. After about 2 years I stopped my participation because I thought it relatively fruitless and I could more effectively use my time elsewhere.
That’s when I decided the most effective function I could spend my energy on was educating myself more thoroughly (thus my constant lurking here) and informing others wherever I felt there were ears to hear.
Although I have found few that seem to want to get more involved themselves after imbuing my rants (wish I could be less passionate and more “calm” alabama) I sense I am making an impact on even those who were originally skeptical and I have, I think, inspired further others who were more reality based to begin with.
I wish I could write more freely and get more effective from the written word rather than just the spoken, and intend to do some training to try to improve. I sometimes write well but it is not often. I haven’t quite figured out why but it seems to take an occasional inspiration which isn’t under conscious control and only occurs when it seems to want to. I admire the fluidity and seeming ease of so many who write here. I will continue to try to emulate.
So that’s my 2 cents worth Monolycus. Hope it helps some.

Posted by: Juannie | Jun 8 2005 0:11 utc | 46

World military spending nears Cold War peak

Tue Jun 7, 2005 12:25 PM ET
By Peter Starck
STOCKHOLM (Reuters) – Massive U.S. spending on the war on terrorism pushed global military expenditure above $1 trillion in 2004, the sixth successive year the total has risen, a leading research institute said on Tuesday.
World military expenditure rose 5 percent to $1.04 trillion, still 6 percent below a Cold War peak in 1987-88, but up sharply since 1998, the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) said in its latest yearbook.
“World military spending…is again approaching its level at the height of the Cold War,” the think tank said. ”
“The major determinant of the world trend in military expenditure is the change in the United States.”
U.S. military spending accounted for nearly half the global figure, rising 12 percent last year to $455 billion, the Swedish government-funded institute said.
That was more than the combined total of the 32 next most powerful nations, SIPRI said. The figure was set to rise still further to $502 billion in 2010 …

Posted by: Outraged | Jun 8 2005 0:49 utc | 47

And there, Outraged, it is in a nut-shell. Of course the people who are running the U.S. government think the war is going wonderfully. Since they are so completely indistinguishable from the captains of (military) industry, from their point of view things couldn’t be peachier. To bad for the rest of us.

Posted by: Ferdzy | Jun 8 2005 1:15 utc | 48

b wrote:
The U.S. government needs an Iraq divided into bantustans to be able pressure for control of the resources.
It’s more fundamental than that. If that was there only concern, there was no reason to go to war because SH caved at the last minute & said he’d agree to anything they wanted.
If you read Brzezkinski’s “Grand Chessboard” & Perkins’ “Confessions of an Economic HitMan”, you ‘ll discover the following. Brz states that the Empire Cannot Allow any regional Powers. Since Iraq is the only large state in ME that has both Fresh Water & plenty of Oil it has to be broken up to prevent that from happening once and for all.
(It’s no accident that xUS elites have waged a specific war on Iraq’s Fresh Water Supplies since ’91 w/Clinton specifically refusing to allow in any of the chlorine etc. they needed to restore it. (Gee, let’s put a Democrat back in the WH & then things’ll be so much better!!) )
From Perkins’ we discover that another reason that xUS elites were in favor of destroying Iraq – war, hell, that’s much too civilized a term for what they’re doing – is because SH refused to follow the Saudis example – in the deal Perkins devised – in funneling his oil profits back to US bankers to be used by US firms for rebuilding the country. He and &other ME Tyrants had to be taught a lesson about what happens when you do not do that.
Oil is just the start…from Naomi Klein in discussion w/Amy Goodman on “Democracy Now” we learn that xUS elites had been largely shut out of ME markets…but from this deliberate wreckage of Irq – the infrastructure, the water, the industry, the land – other tyrants got the message & have been far more compliant signing everything over to the elites of the Predator Nation – er, I mean signing “free trade agreements”.
If it causes or can be used as an excuse to jack up oil prices, so much the better.
I keep wonering what the lesson is for the poor bastards still living in xUSA?? Is there any reason to think they’ll be any less savage at home?? Of course, American citizens are nothing if not docile.

Posted by: jj | Jun 8 2005 1:53 utc | 49

Of course outraged & Fredzy,
The myopia of the captains of industry/capitalism/militarism, filtering out anything on the periphery of the corporate bottom line, is a mind set that the reality based community has a hard time comprehending. We’re imprinted to try to see the big picture which encompasses the whole, micro and macro and in-between. We can’t relate to their excusatory nature.
In lieu of violence to protect ourselves from their blind folly, I think we must somehow in suffuse their filters ( the captains, the ruling class elite, the ultimate “owners” of the planet) with more and more reality (as we understand it and are consciously/critically trying to reevaluate our understandings.)
Since ‘they’ now control most of the message, how do we even get to get the message into their sensory realm?
I don’t know any answers and haven’t thought about it a whole lot but I will more.

Posted by: Juannie | Jun 8 2005 1:59 utc | 50

Since ‘they’ now control most of the message, how do we even get to get the message into their sensory realm?
Act locally, think globally. Meetings…staying below the radar. Expect nothing from Elite Propaganda apparatus, which includes most blogs, at least insofar as it concerns what issues to focus on.
I just saw a recommendation on another thread that people read this summer Roth’s “Plot Against America” in addition to Lewis’ “It can’t happen here”. Has anyone read Roth? Recommended? Anyone interested in a summer reading thread – who’s reading what, what should be consider reading??

Posted by: jj | Jun 8 2005 2:14 utc | 51

jj – a summer reading thread would be idea for the format at le speakeasy. perhaps something to regenerate interest in it too.

Posted by: b real | Jun 8 2005 2:36 utc | 52

Liers: Bush Aide Softened Greenhouse Gas Links to Global Warming

A White House official who once led the oil industry’s fight against limits on greenhouse gases has repeatedly edited government climate reports in ways that play down links between such emissions and global warming, according to internal documents.
In handwritten notes on drafts of several reports issued in 2002 and 2003, the official, Philip A. Cooney, removed or adjusted descriptions of climate research that government scientists and their supervisors, including some senior Bush administration officials, had already approved. In many cases, the changes appeared in the final reports.
The dozens of changes, while sometimes as subtle as the insertion of the phrase “significant and fundamental” before the word “uncertainties,” tend to produce an air of doubt about findings that most climate experts say are robust.
Mr. Cooney is chief of staff for the White House Council on Environmental Quality, the office that helps devise and promote administration policies on environmental issues.
Before going to the White House in 2001, he was the “climate team leader” and a lobbyist at the American Petroleum Institute, the largest trade group representing the interests of the oil industry. A lawyer with a bachelor’s degree in economics, he has no scientific training.

Posted by: b | Jun 8 2005 6:34 utc | 53

Where are the folks from 101st Keyboard Fighters?
After Lowering Goal, Army Falls Short on May Recruits

Even after reducing its recruiting target for May, the Army missed it by about 25 percent, Army officials said on Tuesday. The shortfall would have been even bigger had the Army stuck to its original goal for the month.
On Friday, the Army is expected to announce that it met only 75 percent of its recruiting goal for May, the fourth consecutive monthly shortfall in the number of new recruits sent to basic training. Just over 5,000 new recruits entered boot camp in May.
But the news could have appeared worse. Early last month, the Army, with no public notice, lowered its long-stated May goal to 6,700 recruits from 8,050. Compared with the original target, the Army achieved only 62.6 percent of its goal for the month.

Posted by: b | Jun 8 2005 6:50 utc | 54

Hmm

[Senator] Biden criticized the administration for failing to take up a European offer to help train mid-level Iraqi military officers, a group whose absence is considered a crucial weakness in the Baghdad government’s fighting force. Biden said that Atlantic alliance nations could assist in such training and that French President Jacques Chirac had told him he had received no response to an offer to train 1,500 such officers.
“I am perplexed as to the resistance of the civilians within the Defense Department — and I guess, other places — to engage in this kind of concerted effort to train an officer corps,” Biden said.

Bush Nominee for Top Envoy Unveils Plan

Posted by: b | Jun 8 2005 7:53 utc | 55

Prescient insurgency experts want tactical changes

But rather than adopting a new strategy, the generals and civilian leaders in the Defense Department have continued to support conventional, high-intensity conflict and the expensive weapons that go with it. That is happening, critics say, despite ongoing, lethal insurgencies in Iraq and Afghanistan.
“They don’t understand this kind of warfare,” said Greg Wilcox, a retired Army lieutenant colonel, Vietnam veteran and an open critic of Pentagon policies. “They want to return to war as they envision it. That’s not going to happen.”

Posted by: b | Jun 8 2005 8:25 utc | 56

Jerome will undoubtedly know about
this item which starts out with the eye-popping

India has expressed interest in participating in the proposed gas pipelines from Turkmenistan, Iran and Qatar ‘not as alternative options to each other but for multiplying gas supplies’, a senior [Pakistani] government official said on Tuesday.

and I hope he’ll help us separate the hype from the economic realities. What was especially surprising (beyond what seems to be the cozy rapprochement emerging on the sub-continent) is the mention of a Qatari sourced gas-pipeline.
The same site offers another tidbit, which becomes a veritable “blast from the past” after a Google search reveals the boss of Attock to be none other than Ghaith Pharaon of BCCI infamy. I know nothing about what’s going on in this bit of “privatization”, but the old adage about a leopard not changing its spots keeps running through my mind.

Posted by: Hannah K. O’Luthon | Jun 8 2005 10:00 utc | 57

John Young’s Cryptome site has a link to a list of the
Defense Department’s Fiscal Year 2004 Contracts for Iraq,
fascinating read for the bean-counters, but with a few
chuckles and tasty morsels even for ordinary mortals:

  • Why did Freeman’s Funny Farm have to pay back $6000 of the $154,500 it received from the Army?
  • For what “services” did vendor Spouses of Service Personnel receive $50,000 ?
  • Why all the “Unresolved Vendor Names”? Could
    Victor Bout and Richard Chichakli be hidden here?
  • Naturally, Kellogg, Brown & Root Services is
    there with its itemized $5.5 billion, as other “usual
    suspects”
  • Posted by: Hannah K. O’Luthon | Jun 8 2005 10:45 utc | 58

    INTERESTING POLL NUMBERS ON BUSH

    Posted by: Spanky Ham | Jun 8 2005 12:21 utc | 59

    @slothrop: with all due respect your argument is nothing short of preposterous, not to say insulting.
    You know nothing of my particulars, including what I do to fight Bushco.
    I don’t know what *you* personally do for the cause, and unlike you, I won’t stoop to personal attacks, so I won’t attack your record (for all I know you raise funds 24/7 for the Democrats), but within reason, I’ll match my record in terms of time spent, money donated, voting, petitions, etc., against anyone else’s.
    So don’t act as so sanctimoniously.
    Finally, even if I was doing absolutely nothing, zilch, that does not change the fact that I am basically right.
    Attack the message if you want, not the messenger.

    Posted by: Anonymous | Jun 8 2005 14:42 utc | 60

    That was me above.

    Posted by: Lupin | Jun 8 2005 14:43 utc | 61

    Lupin
    Sorry, I get touchy when I hear the “all americans suck” “antiamerican” epithet(s). Your expatriotism is a luxury, even when you suggest it is a personal solution to the problem of US citizenship in the age of bush–as respectable, but just as bourgeois an escape, as Pound in Paris.
    So, with all due respect.

    Posted by: slothrop | Jun 8 2005 14:59 utc | 62

    Pendulum?

    Many parents and teachers are completely perplexed by their children’s xenophobic tendencies. These are fathers and mothers who came of age in the 1960s, who provided their children with a liberal upbringing, and whose greatest fear was that their kids might be taking drugs. They have been completely taken by surprise by the right-wing sentiments of German young people. Take, for example, a mother from Bremen who moved to the country with her husband and three children a few years ago. “Everything is wonderful here,” she thought at the time. Two-and-a-half years later, when the woman threw her son out of the house, his parting words were “Heil Hitler!”

    Posted by: beq | Jun 8 2005 15:42 utc | 63

    slothrop
    i am an internationalist
    i have lived in exile from my country of origin for nearly twenty years
    i left principally because the politics of that country, the complicity of the elite in that politics & the bovine acceptation by an electorate happily fed by rupert murdoch
    to live in that shit. to live in a nightmare with soft linings & all the acceptable lines you offer about us imperialism not being the main enemy but leaving the tyrants in power. tyrants of an order completely out of context even with your own history who are being – in essence – unopposed
    i live & work with people – with communities & even in this country those communities are not homogenous – i did as i have done all my life. to do it here or there – in this or that country – is beside the point & yes i read in your defence an incipient nationalism – a nationalism not borne of love but of habit & of training
    i have learned to love & love deeply – france – a country whos present is not only complicated but whose history is itself complicated. but it lives with its history – the price of being french is clear in the eyes of any person on a metro
    i understand completely & defend the escape of lupin/ one’s own morality does not live outside of contexts – perhaps in moments in a country’s history – to live morally is to leave it
    i think kim philby, guy burgess, anthony blunt, donal mclean, george blake, klaus fuchs – any number of these people expressed love in a way that for me is truer than that inside a patriots mouth. their love was flawed but it was greater. so too christopher boyce who still rots in an american jail undefended – love for people was greater than that of the criminals in the elite whose sole interest is power & plunder. & it is as simple as that
    the rosenbergs, even if guilty were the greater americans
    so i find your attack on lupin unjustified – & i would counter strongly your argument that the american exiles here are necessarily bourgeois. in the number of cases i know personally – that is simply not the case
    huey p newton sd there was revolutionary suicide – which was to die for the people & reactionary suicide was where you were dying & you tried to take as many people with you
    i find the american empire & its complicit population the practitioners of reactionary suicide ( i am also unconcerned about huey’s hostries & flaws – i know them backwards & forwards) – but even at his worse newtton was a greater american than jesse helms or tom delay
    & i find it a little strange slothrop that you never mention american resistors when you cite texts & there are enough in your history – whether they were john brown, eugene debs cisco houston, paul robeson or fred hampton – all who taught what it is to fight in the belly of the beast
    slothrop, it is ogten reflections you articulate here but i have never heard you speak of the actual fight
    with respect

    Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 8 2005 15:50 utc | 64

    USS Liberty Veteran’s Association Announces War Crime Report Filed Against Israel

    WASHINGTON, DC – Friday, June 10 at 1:00 pm, Hotel Washington, 515 15th.St NW, Washington Room 11th floor (hit R for roof in elevator), Moe Shafer, board member of the USS Liberty Veterans Association and Rear Admiral Merlin Staring, USN, Ret., Former Judge Advocate General of the Navy who was involved with the initial Court of Inquiry investigating the attack in 1967 will present details of the “Report of War Crimes” brief filed on behalf of the USS Liberty Veteran’s Association concerning the 1967 Israeli attack on the USS Liberty.
    The “Report” was filed with by James R. Gotcher, General Legal Counsel, USS – LVA, with the Secretary of Defense at the Pentagon on June 8, the 38th anniversary of the attack on the USS Liberty. For a complete copy of the brief go to for a PDF version of the Report, or for an HTML version of the Report.
    By establishing prima facie evidence that Israel committed war crimes the Secretary of Defense under existing Dept. Of Defense directives is obligated to initiate an inquiry into the commission of war crimes, an investigation that should have been carried out 38 years ago…

    Posted by: Outraged | Jun 8 2005 16:02 utc | 65

    Rgiap
    yuup. I could always do more, personally.
    Lookit, I’ve been a bit of a jerk lately, admittedly. But, the automatic, reflexive “of course, america sucks” thing gets old. I’ve followed when I can Lupin’s dkos stuff, and while I respect his gumption to move, I believe what he did is neither a heroic sacrifice to ideas or a realistic solution to our (yes, our) problems.

    Posted by: slothrop | Jun 8 2005 16:26 utc | 66

    William C. Rhoden, The New York Times, November 29, 1997, on the great Grambling head football coach Eddie Robinson (excerpt):

    One afternoon, not far from that stadium, Robinson and I spoke during an interview about many issues. Somehow the subject turned to the United States flag and patriotism. The flag had not always seemed relevant to me, I said; the anthem music didn’t always seem to speak to me. Robinson, ever so subtly shifted from interviewee to mentor.
    “It took me a long time to believe that it was as much my flag as anyone else’s,” he said. “Once upon a time I was invisible. When they talked about coaches and talked about other schools, they never talked about me or about Grambling. Sometime during the 1960’s, I decided that I was going to be Eddie Robinson, the American, not Eddie Robinson who spoke in terms of ‘them’ and ‘us.’ ”
    He continued: “I sat Eddie Robinson down and talked to him — about things as they are and how things worked. I realized that I’d been offering excuses: ‘This will go to this person, this will go to that person.’ At some point you have to put it in your mind that it’s as much yours as anyone else’s, provided you pay the price. When I first started coaching, my state dictated to me where I had to go. I hold no grudges, and I don’t have a chip on my shoulder. You can’t unring a bell.
    “I played as long as I could play, whenever I could play and as hard as I could play. How else can you judge me, except for what I accomplish?”

    I try to pay the price, though not as costly for me as it was for Robinson.
    The ideal, rgiap: not just anyone can be french, but anyone can be american.

    Posted by: slothrop | Jun 8 2005 17:02 utc | 67

    @ slothrop: nice

    Posted by: beq | Jun 8 2005 17:33 utc | 68

    “Spyware on the White House website? “
    I guess we shouldn’t be surprised.

    Posted by: Uncle $cam | Jun 8 2005 18:13 utc | 69

    @beq
    Many parents and teachers are completely perplexed by their children’s xenophobic tendencies.
    “Hitler Said It Best”
    “When an opponent declares,
    ‘I will not come over to your side.’
    I calmly say, ‘Your child belongs to us already…
    What are you? You will pass on.
    Your descendants, however,
    now stand in the new camp.
    In a short time they will know nothing
    else but this new community.'”
    ~ Adolf Hitler

    Posted by: Uncle $cam | Jun 8 2005 18:17 utc | 70

    Revealed: how oil giant influenced Bush

    President’s George Bush’s decision not to sign the United States up to the Kyoto global warming treaty was partly a result of pressure from ExxonMobil, the world’s most powerful oil company, and other industries, according to US State Department papers seen by the Guardian.

    In briefing papers given before meetings to the US under-secretary of state, Paula Dobriansky, between 2001 and 2004, the administration is found thanking Exxon executives for the company’s “active involvement” in helping to determine climate change policy, and also seeking its advice on what climate change policies the company might find acceptable.

    Posted by: b | Jun 8 2005 18:28 utc | 71

    not just anyone can be french, but anyone can be american.
    An uncanny sentence, this. Because the French Revolution made the first universal citizenship, but that is long forgotten, absolutely obsolete.
    The sentence reeks of obituary, the accomplishments of the dead. American citizenship is browning and rotting on the vine, and we find that when we demand our rights, when we demand that our leaders merely respect the law, the first involuntary reply of our leaders is to smirk.
    Do you really think they see “Americans”? This is not the Cold War anymore – it’s a new game now, not Eddie Robinson’s game at all. These guys are internationalists too (peace to RGiap), not universalist Americans.

    Posted by: citizen | Jun 8 2005 18:30 utc | 72

    Not Iran in but Syria?
    Policy on Syria Moves Toward Regime Change

    In the wake of Lebanon’s first elections following Syrian withdrawal, American policy toward the world’s remaining Ba’athist government is approaching support for regime change.
    President Bush’s top foreign policy advisers met last week to discuss the government of Bashar al-Assad, mulling, according to two administration officials briefed later, a tougher policy that would allow American forces or encourage Iraqi soldiers to pursue terrorists that escape to Syria from Iraq for safe haven.
    At the State Department, the Bureau of Near East Affairs and the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor have asked Congress for explicit legal authority to fund liberal opposition parties inside Syria through regional initiatives that have hitherto focused on reforming American allies such as Jordan and Egypt, two administration officials told The New York Sun.

    Posted by: b | Jun 8 2005 18:47 utc | 73

    Heh. Have the bullies decided Iran is too big to pick on? Maybe they can beat up the scrawny kid.

    Posted by: Colman | Jun 8 2005 18:55 utc | 74

    Well b,
    An ampibious assault ship, the Saipan, left Hampton Roads last week for the eastern Med.
    Ship is capable of carrying 2300 Marines, and enough choppers to deploy them fairly rapidly.
    Who knows what these lunatics will try.

    Posted by: FlashHarry | Jun 8 2005 19:02 utc | 75

    citizen
    yes, in part that is what i have been trying to say in my maldroit way – that the ‘game’ is not the same anymore. never in my life have i seen imperialism takes such risks internationally & internally. they have even taken risks with the erstwhile beneficiaries of their imperialism
    & there are so many aspects of this empire that are american in character & it is not determined only be economics – the theocratic pulsion – the degredation/dissassociation of the ‘law’ is also particularly american
    i was not being hurtful – perhaps not coherent – & at this moment – i am very far from feeling coherent. but you seem to refuse to see in the ideological apparatus – the specificity of this empire – both in detail & in its history. it seems to me your way of hoping this passes. that we will return to normal
    i do not see any such return
    it has already gone too far
    whan people here argue about republican/democrats – it is as if it mattered – more & more it seems as if from another planet
    one of my friends here sent me a new yorker with a long artic le on john mccain – it is a puff piece but the delusional imaginings within it are laughable
    we have gone very very far even from their proper limits
    i think this particular empire is so stupid it does not measure how far it has gone from its own limits
    walter benjamin in escaping nazi germany did so for his life – but he also left to give us greater things & he did
    citizen is correct. the game – the game we once knew – even as marxists has gone & there is nothing even in v i lenin’s ‘imperialism, the highest stage of capitalism’, that would elucidate the horror we are living through

    Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 8 2005 19:07 utc | 76

    THE SAIPAN

    Posted by: FlashHarry | Jun 8 2005 19:15 utc | 77

    From here to eternity
    Islamist insurgents have turned the aftermath of the war in Iraq into a seemingly endless holy war, and are still pouring into the country to fight the ‘American devil’. En route, many of them pass through Syria. Ghaith Abdul-Ahad visits the ancient city of Aleppo and hears one jihadi’s story
    Wednesday June 8, 2005
    The Guardian
    Four weeks ago, US troops in Iraq launched an operation just inside the border with Syria, aimed at disrupting the route of foreign fighters; the US army claimed that 100 fighters were killed. Abu Ibrahim is unmoved to learn of the assault. “They think jihad will stop if they kill hundreds of us in Iraq. They don’t know what they are facing. Every day, more and more young men from around the Muslim world are awaking and coming to the jihad. Now the Americans are facing thousands, but one day soon they will have to face whole nations …”

    Posted by: Outraged | Jun 8 2005 19:39 utc | 78

    Other significant deployments last week, I think, from San Diego and Hampton Roads but I can’t find the links now. USS Nimetz group left San Diego though.

    Posted by: beq | Jun 8 2005 19:42 utc | 79

    It is a possibility that Big Biz may want to remove Bush as the Homeland crap, ripping off, and useless war has gone too far. With no big benefits. Except for the chosen few. When thieves fall out…watch out!
    It may happen soon. (Few months.) Or not. Bush’s calling card is malleabiity.
    Warren Buffet, Kissinger, Soros, and others, have been making noise in the media. Bush has exceeded his mandate and turned the White House into Looney Tunes.
    The Media, particularly, are not pleased. They run the show ya know – c’est le cas de le dire -, and can’t be dealing with someone so inept. They gave and gave… to no avail (in their eyes), not knowing exactly what they expected in return. Somehow it didn’t work out. They are clueless but have much of the power. Make or break.

    Posted by: Noisette | Jun 8 2005 20:01 utc | 80

    Monolycus: Can activism be done intelligently and effectually? Can dissent be made to be viewed as patriotic?
    Yes. I like to think.
    But not within the conventional frame of demonstrating etc.
    People do these things because they know they are allowed; provide emotional relief. Then they all go home and say We Did Our Bit aren’t the Bosses vile. Do BBQ in the garden and self-glorify. Beer. Cutie kids scamper about.
    What is needed, amongst other things, is hard hitting actions (non violent) of a spectacular type, with full TV crews in attendance (ah, there’s the rub..) But they do need material…
    Occupying all the toilets in Chicago airport. Or NY. A classic. Easy, all it takes is a sandwich and a book.
    Buying up all the tickets for a famous Opera show and disrupting it. Classic again.
    I have other suggestions ..not now. Free wheeling contest here, why not?
    If my mind goes in this direction it is because I think there is nevertheless a tiny wedge to be exploited vis a vis the Media. They by nature are keen on cultural action and American creativity. It is in their ‘genes.’
    The problem is, would anyone be willing? Would a group of even 50 Us citizens dare ??

    Posted by: Noisette | Jun 8 2005 20:04 utc | 81

    Massive antiwar demonstrations in Washington were ignored by the media Noisette. They sent some helicopters to see what was going on, but played the non-story waaaay down to “it barely existed” status. No pictures, no reporting.
    All this talk about shaking the media out of their daze is like pissing in the wind. I suggest that we acknowlege that they are the enemy, not only complicit in war crimes, but an active principal player.
    If you can come up with a trick to get some publicity through that syndicate, more power to ya.

    Posted by: rapt | Jun 8 2005 20:39 utc | 82

    Can I say, Outraged, how wonderful it is to see you back in such rare form?
    Now I know we all helplessly hope for the day when we will be solely in the plowshares business, but until then, a military leadership class is a sad necessity. Unfortunately, we don’t have the one we ought to have, as the late David Hackworth so often and eloquently pointed out. If you didn’t read the article B linked to above, I second his recommendation: Critics: Pentagon in Blinders
    On a related subject, Karen Kwiatkowski nails it again:

    In the May 13th Wall Street Journal op-ed, Eliot Cohen shares his dismay that Columbia University has joined a long list of colleges and universities that will no longer host the Reserve Officer Training Corps (ROTC) on their campuses.
    …Cohen exhibits a certain intellectualized belligerence toward the rest of the world, a trait he shares with another Bushian character, John Bolton.
    …Cohen appears to hold fast to a reactionary assumption that somehow ROTC offers academic military learning, or that the modern American military has somehow been improved by liberal educations.
    If I were an ROTC or military leadership dilettante – as Cohen is – I might make the same faulty assumptions.
    But as a product of four years of ROTC in the late 1970s and early 1980s at two different universities, I can vouch for the fact that little meaningful information is gained through the process, relating either to American military history or to the proper role of an American military officer in society and government.
    Far more frightening is my observation, after over twenty years of service as an officer, that a lively academic curiosity and a serious understanding of American strategic and military history often serves as a handicap for the achievement of higher rank, at least at the flag officer level.
    People like General Richard Myers, General Peter Pace, General John Abizaid and his predecessor General Tommy Franks come to mind. These current military leaders seem to have attended nothing more than the school of never asking questions, or perhaps the community college of refusing to engage in the rigorous checking of facts and data. These “military leaders” share a marked lack of intellectual curiosity of the past, present or future, beyond the dim-witted but comfortable world of the U.S. military-industrial complex.
    …Perhaps Eliot Cohen and I are in agreement after all. Perhaps, he and I would both would prefer to see far wiser and reflective military senior leadership. Perhaps, he and I would both prefer that our military leadership complete a prestigious classical education and embrace American and European cultural and philosophic traditions. Perhaps, he and I both desire a military cadre more in tune with the historical foundations of the 21st century, and thus be more qualified to face modern complexities in world affairs and national security.
    Sadly, I am afraid that is not what Cohen believes. In fact, it appears that his real beef is that popular and prestigious universities are pushing back from the lockstep militaristic domestic and international policies that Cohen holds so dear.
    …Eliot Cohen has confused patriotism and political correctness, and accuses Columbia University of the latter. Yet when the evidence is examined, the opposite conclusion shines as the correct one. Cohen’s logic is not only outlandish, it is Fatherlandish.

    It was once said that the difference between America and the USSR was that we had a military-industrial complex, but they were a military-industrial complex. This line is another that the Bush-neocon-fascists are busy blurring. Except that we are heading toward a military-industrial theocracy.

    Posted by: OkieByAccident | Jun 8 2005 20:42 utc | 83

    fact to accept:
    arms manufacturers own the corporate media
    fact to work with:
    churches and other such local communities (actual ones, not “communities”) earn enough loyalty that their members can actually coordinate and exert control over politics – and the groups that are actually loyal to their members do not align themselves with any party.

    Posted by: citizen | Jun 8 2005 20:49 utc | 84

    @ OkieByAccident
    Its a priviledge to participate in the community of the MoA.
    Despair, depression, loss of hope/faith, personal circumstance and declining health now combine to limit my ability and motivation to contribute in some small way … a long emotive, rage filled, ranting series of posts of passionate, indignant horror is kept at bay by possibly some remaining semblance of rational thought or objectivity …
    If only we were not accursed to live in interesting times …

    Posted by: Outraged | Jun 8 2005 21:06 utc | 85

    you seem to refuse to see in the ideological apparatus – the specificity of this empire – both in detail & in its history. it seems to me your way of hoping this passes. that we will return to normal
    i do not see any such return

    RGiap,
    you’re right that I am still hoping this will pass – but I do not see my hope as especially rational. For me, the fact that the U.S. military uses depleted uranium armor and shells confirmed that the leadership of the country has pawned our souls.
    I have to agree with your analysis, and amplify:
    this is the empire of the atom, of the smallest possible thing, and of the new poisonous world that arises when these smallest healthy things are smithereened.

    Posted by: citizen | Jun 8 2005 21:07 utc | 86

    @Outraged,
    I hope this community, in some small way, can contribute to helping keep you grounded and with at least a bit of hope. It does that for me, I know… and your contributions to this community have not been (and are not now) small.
    Objectivity is overrated (if even possible). Passion is necessary. Rationality has proved useful, I’ll admit. :^)

    Posted by: OkieByAccident | Jun 8 2005 21:31 utc | 87

    citizen
    Yeah, I stand corrected. Rights of man, etc. I suppose to be french and sit in the metro looking into the eyes of fellow frenchmen, one greets frenchmen who are brown and black. But, in spite of the rhetoric (egality, fraternity), there’s this, the famous Paris Match cover:

    “[a]ll this is the meaning of the picture. But, whether naively or not, I see very well what it signifies to me: that France is a great Empire, that all her sons, without colour discrimination, faithfully serve under her flag, and that there is no better answer to the detractors of an alleged colonialism than the zeal shown by this Negro in serving his so-called oppressors”–from Barthes’ Mythologies

    In the American context, the semiotics of a similar photo mean something importantly different. Attend any powwow and notice how often costumes are adorned with the flag. The appropriation of the flag by native americans, former slaves, and immigrants, is less ludicrous, for various reasons, than an appropriation of the tricolor by non-white French.
    I’m not saying the appropriations necessarily empower non-whites/marginalized, but the belief is the American flag is always up for grabs, is significant.
    But, I’m no expert.

    Posted by: slothrop | Jun 8 2005 21:44 utc | 88

    citizen
    (you seem to refuse to see in the ideological apparatus – the specificity of this empire – both in detail & in its history. it seems to me your way of hoping this passes. that we will return to normal
    i do not see any such return)
    was intended for comrade slothrop.
    citizen, it would seem you & i are in agreement on a number of issues & your last post citizen reminded me a little of that poem by blake – everythting that lives is holy – a profound & simple thought from an extremely complex man who deeply understood his time
    slothrop, i do not need to cite barthes for what is an obviouslly observable fact. european countries wear their sins. the poorest of them absorb practically the symbolic order of that history. of that shame
    you have a good head, slothrop & sometimes a good ear but sometimes i wonder where is that heart that can see the connection between the human heart & gramsci. that can see the direct line between the cost of thinking & the work of althusser. that this work . that this history is human, profoundly human
    that for thought to really work, properly even a kojeve or a hegel it must be grounded in the lineaments of desire of the heart & be informed by that heart, without sentiment, without nostalgia
    i repeat julius & ethel rosenberg were greater americans than the dulles brothers
    & i am not hindered by your lockery slothrop in relation to looking into they eyes of fellow citizen – often those eyes are the clearest path to their hearts in a way even jean hippolyte would have understood
    when from thinking, or from the work of thinking, of scholarly life you have built a fortress then you have disgonoured that thinking – because as marx made clear in his thesis from feueurbach, “the educator needs to be educated”

    Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 8 2005 22:10 utc | 89

    outraged
    you are & remain a treasure – i like others here are glad, really glad that you are back here – take it easy but take it as woody sd – offer us what you can – it will always be important to us
    & you are not alone in the darkness…..;

    Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 8 2005 22:13 utc | 90

    whan people here argue about republican/democrats – it is as if it mattered – more & more it seems as if from another planet
    same here. this team was put into office in 2000 b/c they were the players deemed necessary for the project we see unfolding in every direction. that the reality of no true opposition existing when we leaped over the rubicon, or in most every transgression since 2000, could still escape such a mass of seemingly intelligent people only exacerbates the predicament. i hold hope that the solution will come from w/i these borders, yes, but not from the system itself.

    Posted by: b real | Jun 9 2005 3:31 utc | 91

    I want to thank everyone who responded to my questions (and everyone who didn’t… answers and insights aren’t always intentionally provided). In varying degrees, I agree with much of what has been said. Debs is correct to point out that the only way to get the attention of the powers-that-be is a financial approach, but I also think alabama is correct in that the great unwashed masses will have to become ready to listen before they will be ready to make themselves heard.
    Whichever way they decide to do it, it will have to be en masse and calculated to maximise their message. I’m sorry, Noisette, but simply disrupting operas or occupying toilets is merely a nuisance, and would only reinforce to the moderate independents that the Left are irritating malcontents with no solutions. It would turn the cause into nothing more than a sideshow (as the Christian fundamentalists made of themselves and their cause by trying the same approach during the Terri Schaivo fiasco). In the early days of Gulf War II, I saw footage of Martin Sheen being mocked by a newscaster as he stood silently on some courthouse steps somewhere with a piece of duct tape over his mouth. This is bad activism. Not only could nobody figure out what his message was precisely, but it served to make anti-war people look foolish and sway more people over to the warmonger-crowd.
    Disruption and annoyance might get the attention of the media apparatus for a short time, rapt, but unless the underlying meme of that “stunt” were unequivocal it would only serve the Right as another distraction from real issues (like the Michael Jackson trial is doing now) and further alienate the Left. Of course, if someone wants to become a sideshow in a calculated attempt to “move the goalposts” as A Swedish Kind of Death described, that could have some potential.
    What I am left with is as follows (working backwards):
    The powers-that-be must be hit hard in the pocketbooks in order for them to take an activist’s message seriously. In order to do that, many, many citizens must act in concert and with a focused goal.
    In order to get many, many citizens to act in concert and with a focused goal, they must first “be ready” to listen to unpleasant truths.
    I believe that many, many people can be “made ready” to listen, but not through half-assed attention getting ploys performed by well-meaning but short-sighted activists. I would suggest, per my own observations, that any small, relatively unimportant bit of trivia is sufficient to distract groups of people from dealing with unpleasant truths… so those truths must be stated plainly and unequivocally.
    In the case of the Iraq war, Billmon’s article (Not Appropriate For…) might be key to making the message inescapable. I was in South Korea when the Abu Ghraib scandal broke… many more of those photos were released there than anyone stateside saw. They were blown up to poster size and displayed on street corners. As awful as they are, they galvanized the public nearly unanimously. Michael Moore timidly showed a few “horrendous” images in Fahrenheit 9-11, but they were not enough. I do not relish the idea, but if people want to support something, then they should be shown what it is that they are supporting. When images of the lives that are being destroyed become impossible to escape, the moderates might be ready to listen to alternative views. That is just one idea.
    As for anti-Americanism, the American people do not want to view themselves as the “bad guys” any more than anyone else does… and that is why it is so easy for them to distract themselves from the unpleasant facts. The underlying message they must be made to hear and understand is that, against their will, they have been cast by their leadership as the ones wearing the black hats. Simply condemning Americans unilaterally only makes us cling more obstinately to our behaviours. We must be made to understand that what we are doing runs counter to our beliefs… and yes, that will be an unpleasant and humiliating thing for us to have to face. I am confident, though, if the message can be made plain enough without unnecessary condemnation, that nearly every American will want to correct this situation. Whether or not there actually are “good guys and bad guys” in the world, everybody wants to identify themselves as the good guy. Americans are no different in this respect, and we will behave as good guys when we can no longer rationalise and excuse doing bad things.

    Posted by: Monolycus | Jun 9 2005 6:12 utc | 92

    Put very well indeed, Monoylcus. Time has a role to play here–or at least an openness, on our parts, to the learning process and the instructional process (different names for our conversations with folks that we trust and respect). They take time, these processes–but sometimes they also give it back.

    Posted by: alabama | Jun 9 2005 6:44 utc | 93

    Why are so many of us consciously or unconsciously giving the assholes who have grabbed the controls even more power than they actually have?
    This is danger of replacing an unelected king with a president. I could also point out that it is an extension of that whole Judeo-Christian messiah thing where people are indoctrinated into believing than one person (almost always a man) can save us.
    George Bush is just another half smart human that luck has so far protected from the consequences of his actions. Karl Rove is strictly a confidence player, I have never played much baseball but I have played enough cricket to know that some batsmen get by for years on a mixture of hubris and luck. Until they don’t anymore… Yes some people can get away with making the moves that the percentages tell us will get them out and they don’t get out…and then they do. Usually in cricket it happens once a bowler has worked the batsman out. Sometimes it can take a while but once it starts to happen the whole house of cards comes tumbling down and the batsmen misses the easy ones too. This will happen with BushCo in fact it is happening now, so we need to be working these blokes out not flinging our caps on the deck, jamming our hands onto our hips and hanging our heads.
    A great deal of shit is also talked about how this is somehow different from all the other times in history when assholes have managed to persuade a mob of people that god is on their side as they slaughter rape and pillage. When the Spainards went into America they went with a priest out front giving the people a choice between dying as a saint or a sinner. Not living or dying but taking jesus and dying painlessly or not and being burnt at the stake. The Spanish that choose to think of those times now renounce this savagery but most didn’t while it was happening, most were only too happy to benefit from the wealth that this colonisation generated.
    A few years ago I looked after an old bloke who had served in the foreign legion in Algeria and Vietnam. His personal story was not unlike those of millions of men who entered WW2 as a boy. I had to ask him to stop telling me about the things he did in Algeria not because it disgusted me but that I felt his stories were just recitations. He was using the stories as a way of avoiding his actions. He had been given his ration of one litre of wine every day, a habit he continued long after he stopped torturing Algerians. As he said “we had good officers, they were all french born. They made sure that no matter what else we got our ration.” When the french pulled out of Algeria they did it because it was uneconomic to occupy any longer, not because the people of france had an attack of the guilts. The same can be said of the british who justified their retreat from India as a great humanitarian act but didn’t pull out until they had stopped making a quid and then left the a country in a fragmented state from which it hasn’t recovered. All thanks to the brits policy of ‘divide and rule’.
    On the rare occasions I go to dinner parties in NZ I can stop the conversation in it’s tracks by saying “Tell me do you think that it’s a coincidence our much vaunted welfare state got abolished once maori and pacifica people became the bulk of the welfare recipients?”
    Of course some half drunk fat facist in the corner will thump the table but in a way I prefer that response to the ‘caring’ class who look the other way or try and think of ways of bringing the talk around to more polite topics.
    Alabama is correct that my brand of confrontation rarely wins converts but someone has to say this stuff even if only to soften people up for the next person who will present things much more rationally.
    We all need to resist the best way we know. We can’t for a moment allow ourselves to believe that this state of affairs is inevitable. Remember back in the day when even most conservatives thought that ‘world communism’ was inevitable?

    Posted by: Debs is dead | Jun 9 2005 8:34 utc | 94

    and then left the a country in a fragmented state from which it hasn’t recovered.
    fragmented state? what sort of state was India before the pommies?
    “Tell me do you think that it’s a coincidence our much vaunted welfare state got abolished once maori and pacifica people became the bulk of the welfare recipients?”
    Over-emotive and not quite reality based.
    Shades of r-giap.
    (signed) – a half drunk fascist.

    Posted by: DM | Jun 9 2005 9:52 utc | 95

    @DM
    you left out the fat bit maybe that’s just another self delusion.

    Posted by: Debs is dead | Jun 9 2005 10:53 utc | 96

    Re: EROEI
    Oil and food: A new security challenge
    The US food system uses over 10 quadrillion Btu (10,551 quadrillion Joules) of energy each year, as much as France’s total annual energy consumption. Growing food accounts for only one-fifth of this. The other four-fifths is used to move, process, package, sell, and store food after it leaves the farm. Some 28% of energy used in agriculture goes to fertilizer manufacturing, 7% goes to irrigation, and 34% is consumed as diesel and gasoline by farm vehicles used to plant, till, and harvest crops. The rest goes to pesticide production, grain drying, and facility operations.
    The past half-century has witnessed a tripling in world grain production – from 631 million tons in 1950 to 2,029 million tons in 2004. While 80% of the increase is due to population growth raising demand, the remainder can be attributed to more people eating higher up the food chain, increasing per capita grain consumption by 24%. New grain demand has been met primarily by raising land productivity through higher yielding crop varieties in conjunction with more oil-intensive mechanization, irrigation, and fertilizer use, rather than by expanding cropland.

    Posted by: Juannie | Jun 9 2005 18:49 utc | 97