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June 7, 2005
Open Thread 05-54
News, views, opinions …
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good morning bernhard.things have indeed picked up around here to need a new open thread more than once a week.i’m just soaking it up.i love our blog.have you and jerome decided to put revamping on the back burner?or are there changes comming? Posted by: onzaga | Jun 7 2005 7:39 utc | 1 Things have already changed – some bigger, like the logo, some small and subtle. What`s left to do for now is a tweak on the logo, the messed up preview page and a blogroll page. I had more in mind, but as folks here are all-out conservative, I will hold back for now. I wonder what Razor would think of these medieval military tactics?
Great use of reconstruction funds eh? Posted by: Cloned Poster | Jun 7 2005 8:14 utc | 3 A medieval mote. I’m laughing cynically. Posted by: Noisette | Jun 7 2005 8:27 utc | 4 Hey b, we’re not Conservative Across the Board, just in matters of decor!! Posted by: jj | Jun 7 2005 8:31 utc | 6 There is an Airbus / Boing subsidy WTO case coming pitching Europe against the U.S.. This WaPo article comes in handy for the Europeans and for the U.S. taxpayers:
That’s a really cool story on the boeing deal. The bit I like the best is the way the repugs have found a role for women in senior positions. They are there to take the fall. Everyman and his dog was pushing this deal from the whitehouse to half the Air Force but the only person who goes to jail is the woman Darlene A. Druyun. Reminds me of something else…. I know Abu Graib! Now I’m worried does that mean the lovely Condy is gonna have to take one for the boss? Hard to imagine Dr Rice going quietly. There would have to be a real big earner in it later. Posted by: Debs is dead | Jun 7 2005 9:57 utc | 8 From Watergate to Downing Street — Lying for War. Posted by: Lupin | Jun 7 2005 10:45 utc | 9 “The only moral alternative today is to be anti-America.” Posted by: slothrop | Jun 7 2005 14:48 utc | 10 @slothrop. How is saying that one must oppose America (and its works) being a quitter? Posted by: Anonymous | Jun 7 2005 15:51 utc | 11 Cause and Effect?: Posted by: Buster | Jun 7 2005 16:02 utc | 12 It’s a luxury for the expat to demand “anti-americanism” as the only reasonable response to Bush-fascism. Good for you, Lupin. Some of us cannot leave, or prefer, as American citizens, to struggle against this fascism. Posted by: slothrop | Jun 7 2005 16:05 utc | 13 @CP: Posted by: Spanky Ham | Jun 7 2005 16:09 utc | 14 Then there will be wall gaps and moat gaps, etc. Posted by: Spanky Ham | Jun 7 2005 16:16 utc | 15
Original (unedited) Source found here:
Posted by: Outraged | Jun 7 2005 16:31 utc | 16 Lupin is right that Bushie and the rethug machine is full of liars. But I am with slothrop. I am sticking it out aand fight the fascist rethugs. They are really starting to sink themmselves. The polls show US citizens are fed up with the lies. They believe the economy, Iraq, SS and about everything else is on the wrong track under Bushie. Posted by: jdp | Jun 7 2005 16:45 utc | 17 You can say what every you like about President Nixon but at least he saw reality and had a plan to deal with Vietnam. Of course he lied but at least he was sane enough to know he was lying as he withdrew American troops, bombed SE Asia and promoted Vietnamization. The stress was enough to make even a Quaker paranoid. Posted by: Jim S | Jun 7 2005 16:50 utc | 18 On December 7, 2001, President Bush issued the Night and Fog Decree.
Secretary of Defence Rumsfeld issued a letter stating:
The victims were usually arrested in the middle of the night and quickly taken to prisons hundreds or even thousands of miles away for questioning and torture, eventually arriving at the ‘indefinite’ detention camps, if they survived. Posted by: Outraged | Jun 7 2005 16:57 utc | 19 Night and Fog Decree – Unarguably War Crimes – CIA ‘Ghost Detainees’
Full NYT article here:: Posted by: Outraged | Jun 7 2005 17:27 utc | 20 Lest anyone think the State Political Police aren’t watching web postings, Prof. Mark Crispin Miller was visited by 3 FBI agents as a result of postings on yahoo! Link Posted by: jj | Jun 7 2005 18:19 utc | 21 @jj Posted by: Outraged | Jun 7 2005 18:40 utc | 22 The slothrop/Lupin exchanges (above) have touched on something that has been scraping away at my mind a lot recently and I thought this would be an appropriate forum to raise this issue. Posted by: Monolycus | Jun 7 2005 18:56 utc | 23 outraged you are correct to make the connection to nacht et nabel. so much of what the empire does is resonant with the nazi powers it has inherited Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 7 2005 19:00 utc | 24 no, monolycus – you need to risk tearing the whole house down. Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 7 2005 19:06 utc | 25 “Can activism be done intelligently and effectually? Can dissent be made to be viewed as patriotic” Posted by: slothrop | Jun 7 2005 19:20 utc | 26 these people are fools. dangerous fools. who do they think are the iraquis. an article from the sydney morning herald (sorry – a cut & paste) Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 7 2005 19:23 utc | 27 University demos are more sustained and confrontational, because students have less to lose and more to gain than average citizens congregating every now and then in solidarity against war. Posted by: slothrop | Jun 7 2005 19:25 utc | 28 @rememberinggiap Posted by: Monolycus | Jun 7 2005 19:55 utc | 29 m Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 7 2005 20:15 utc | 30 Not to detract from the emphasis on this open thread, but more on the state of the US economy and the balance of trade deficit. I think at least b will be interested. Posted by: Juannie | Jun 7 2005 20:24 utc | 32 Further to the trade deficit- Posted by: biklett | Jun 7 2005 20:52 utc | 34 A Sunni Arab politician claimed Tuesday that two insurgent groups were willing to negotiate with the Shiite-led government, a disclosure that comes after reports that the government had opened indirect channels to some insurgents. Ayham Al-Samarie, a former Cabinet minister, told The Associated Press the two groups make up 50 percent of the Sunni-dominated insurgency. Posted by: Friendly Fire | Jun 7 2005 21:12 utc | 35 @Juannie & biklett Posted by: Outraged | Jun 7 2005 21:13 utc | 36 @biklett – what could compensate for those imports would be exports on that theme from the movie industry. Unfortunatly U.S. movies in this genre, while plenty, are a. boring and b. racist – so no luck here. @ff – the U.S. has NO interest in a strong unified Iraqi government. It will therefore take care that any talks between the insurgency and the government will fail. The U.S. government needs an Iraq divided into bantustans to be able pressure for control of the resources. fran Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 7 2005 21:35 utc | 39 fran Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 7 2005 21:38 utc | 40 @ Friendly Fire Posted by: Outraged | Jun 7 2005 21:47 utc | 41 I’m not a US citizen and haven’t travelled to the US for a long time for the same reason I refused to travel to South Africa when it was under the apartheid regime. No this is not some sort of holier than thou boycott but simple self protection. In certain circumstances I am incapable of keeping my mouth shut. The innate friendliness and hospitality of americans always carried me through in the past but I couldn’t see how that would be in the current climate. Posted by: Debs is dead | Jun 7 2005 22:10 utc | 42 Whatever our skills in the arts of writing and talking, Monolycus, we only talk to stones if the folks aren’t ready to hear. You know the problem only too well. My way of dealing with it is pretty obvious: I try to prepare for moments when folks are ready to listen (and time spent on the net is preparation of this kind), then talk about the war when others have raised the topic. Talking in a calm and well-informed manner can have a quietly powerful effect on the gathered company (small as that company may be), and folks are just full of surprises; I’m astonished by the things that people know and say about this war–nothing they learn from official sources, certainly. Posted by: alabama | Jun 7 2005 22:50 utc | 44 Monolycus, Posted by: A swedish kind of death | Jun 7 2005 23:53 utc | 45 @ Monolycus, Debs, & alabama, Posted by: Juannie | Jun 8 2005 0:11 utc | 46 World military spending nears Cold War peak
Posted by: Outraged | Jun 8 2005 0:49 utc | 47 And there, Outraged, it is in a nut-shell. Of course the people who are running the U.S. government think the war is going wonderfully. Since they are so completely indistinguishable from the captains of (military) industry, from their point of view things couldn’t be peachier. To bad for the rest of us. b wrote: Posted by: jj | Jun 8 2005 1:53 utc | 49 Of course outraged & Fredzy, Posted by: Juannie | Jun 8 2005 1:59 utc | 50 Since ‘they’ now control most of the message, how do we even get to get the message into their sensory realm? Posted by: jj | Jun 8 2005 2:14 utc | 51 jj – a summer reading thread would be idea for the format at le speakeasy. perhaps something to regenerate interest in it too. Posted by: b real | Jun 8 2005 2:36 utc | 52 Liers: Bush Aide Softened Greenhouse Gas Links to Global Warming
Where are the folks from 101st Keyboard Fighters?
Hmm
Prescient insurgency experts want tactical changes
Jerome will undoubtedly know about
and I hope he’ll help us separate the hype from the economic realities. What was especially surprising (beyond what seems to be the cozy rapprochement emerging on the sub-continent) is the mention of a Qatari sourced gas-pipeline. Posted by: Hannah K. O’Luthon | Jun 8 2005 10:00 utc | 57 John Young’s Cryptome site has a link to a list of the Victor Bout and Richard Chichakli be hidden here? there with its itemized $5.5 billion, as other “usual suspects” Posted by: Hannah K. O’Luthon | Jun 8 2005 10:45 utc | 58 @slothrop: with all due respect your argument is nothing short of preposterous, not to say insulting. Posted by: Anonymous | Jun 8 2005 14:42 utc | 60 Lupin Posted by: slothrop | Jun 8 2005 14:59 utc | 62
Posted by: beq | Jun 8 2005 15:42 utc | 63 slothrop Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 8 2005 15:50 utc | 64 USS Liberty Veteran’s Association Announces War Crime Report Filed Against Israel
Posted by: Outraged | Jun 8 2005 16:02 utc | 65 Rgiap Posted by: slothrop | Jun 8 2005 16:26 utc | 66 William C. Rhoden, The New York Times, November 29, 1997, on the great Grambling head football coach Eddie Robinson (excerpt):
I try to pay the price, though not as costly for me as it was for Robinson. Posted by: slothrop | Jun 8 2005 17:02 utc | 67 “Spyware on the White House website? “ Posted by: Uncle $cam | Jun 8 2005 18:13 utc | 69 @beq Posted by: Uncle $cam | Jun 8 2005 18:17 utc | 70 Revealed: how oil giant influenced Bush
not just anyone can be french, but anyone can be american. Posted by: citizen | Jun 8 2005 18:30 utc | 72 Not Iran in but Syria?
Well b, Posted by: FlashHarry | Jun 8 2005 19:02 utc | 75 citizen Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 8 2005 19:07 utc | 76
Posted by: Outraged | Jun 8 2005 19:39 utc | 78 Other significant deployments last week, I think, from San Diego and Hampton Roads but I can’t find the links now. USS Nimetz group left San Diego though. Posted by: beq | Jun 8 2005 19:42 utc | 79 It is a possibility that Big Biz may want to remove Bush as the Homeland crap, ripping off, and useless war has gone too far. With no big benefits. Except for the chosen few. When thieves fall out…watch out! Posted by: Noisette | Jun 8 2005 20:01 utc | 80 Monolycus: Can activism be done intelligently and effectually? Can dissent be made to be viewed as patriotic? Posted by: Noisette | Jun 8 2005 20:04 utc | 81 Massive antiwar demonstrations in Washington were ignored by the media Noisette. They sent some helicopters to see what was going on, but played the non-story waaaay down to “it barely existed” status. No pictures, no reporting. Posted by: rapt | Jun 8 2005 20:39 utc | 82 Can I say, Outraged, how wonderful it is to see you back in such rare form?
It was once said that the difference between America and the USSR was that we had a military-industrial complex, but they were a military-industrial complex. This line is another that the Bush-neocon-fascists are busy blurring. Except that we are heading toward a military-industrial theocracy. Posted by: OkieByAccident | Jun 8 2005 20:42 utc | 83 fact to accept: Posted by: citizen | Jun 8 2005 20:49 utc | 84 @ OkieByAccident Posted by: Outraged | Jun 8 2005 21:06 utc | 85
RGiap, Posted by: citizen | Jun 8 2005 21:07 utc | 86 @Outraged, Posted by: OkieByAccident | Jun 8 2005 21:31 utc | 87 citizen
In the American context, the semiotics of a similar photo mean something importantly different. Attend any powwow and notice how often costumes are adorned with the flag. The appropriation of the flag by native americans, former slaves, and immigrants, is less ludicrous, for various reasons, than an appropriation of the tricolor by non-white French. Posted by: slothrop | Jun 8 2005 21:44 utc | 88 citizen Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 8 2005 22:10 utc | 89 outraged Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jun 8 2005 22:13 utc | 90 whan people here argue about republican/democrats – it is as if it mattered – more & more it seems as if from another planet Posted by: b real | Jun 9 2005 3:31 utc | 91 I want to thank everyone who responded to my questions (and everyone who didn’t… answers and insights aren’t always intentionally provided). In varying degrees, I agree with much of what has been said. Debs is correct to point out that the only way to get the attention of the powers-that-be is a financial approach, but I also think alabama is correct in that the great unwashed masses will have to become ready to listen before they will be ready to make themselves heard. Posted by: Monolycus | Jun 9 2005 6:12 utc | 92 Put very well indeed, Monoylcus. Time has a role to play here–or at least an openness, on our parts, to the learning process and the instructional process (different names for our conversations with folks that we trust and respect). They take time, these processes–but sometimes they also give it back. Posted by: alabama | Jun 9 2005 6:44 utc | 93 Why are so many of us consciously or unconsciously giving the assholes who have grabbed the controls even more power than they actually have? Posted by: Debs is dead | Jun 9 2005 8:34 utc | 94 and then left the a country in a fragmented state from which it hasn’t recovered. Posted by: DM | Jun 9 2005 9:52 utc | 95 @DM Posted by: Debs is dead | Jun 9 2005 10:53 utc | 96 Re: EROEI Posted by: Juannie | Jun 9 2005 18:49 utc | 97 |
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