Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
May 28, 2005
EU Constitution Vote Thread

France votes tomorrow on the EU Constitution. As the latest polls show, the "non" seems likely to win:

050528_ft_eu_polls

The last 3 polls available actually give 51%, 52% and 56% for the "non", so it’s hard to know if it will be close or not. Several commenters, including Valery Giscard d’Estaing, the former French President and the main writer of the new Constitution, have made a reference to Liverpool, who came back from a 3-0 score at half time to win the Champion’s League last Wednesday.

We’ll know tomorrow. Below are a few musings on the last days of the campaign:

– a campaign with international voices
– two radically different "non"
– what will happen next on the left and on the right

I will use this thread for live blogging of the results tomorrow, along with a parallel diary over at dKos.

A campaign with international voices

What has been striking in this campaign is the massive involvement of non-French politicians and personalities in the campaign in France. They have joined the political meetings organized by the big parties, they have written many op-eds in the papers, they have spoken on TV and radio. In a previous diary, I wrote that these foreign politicians only supported the "oui" vote, but I was wrong about that: conservative British politicians have supported the sovereigntist "non" campaign on the right, and senior figures of the European left (like Oscar Lafontaine, the maverick leftist politician who is currently musing a run as an independent, left-of-Schoeder’s SPD in the coming German elections) have also participated in the "non" from the left, asking France to reject the treaty as too market-oriented.

Still, the majority of these foreign voices have been favorable to the "oui" and have called the French, sometimes with passion, to support the Constitution.

Europe’s leaders in frantic Yes push on EU poll

After his country became the ninth EU country to ratify the treaty, Gerhard Schröder, Germany’s chancellor, travelled to the French city of Toulouse on Friday night to take part in frantic last-minute campaigning. José Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, Spain’s prime minister, joined French socialist leaders at a Yes rally in the northern French town of Lille. "Europe cannot advance without France," he said.

 

I have not heard or read a single complaint about these foreign interventions in this campaign. The French probably relish the attention – once again, they are at the center of everybody’s attentions, which certainly provides a nice feeling of being relevant in the world, a feeling which appears to be rare these days in my country (not everybody has tried a new career as a dKos regular diarist 😉 ).
But in a way (in my ever-optimistic world view), it also shows that this vote matters to all Europeans and that it is legitimate that they be involved, and it underlines the fact that our destinies are pretty much irreversibly intertwined, whatever institutional form that takes.

It also underlines, of course, that a lot is at stake in the short term, and that the course of Europe is likely to take pretty different paths depending on tomorrow’s result. My take:

– a French "oui" would in all likelihood be followed by a Dutch one, as they would probably hesitate to be the first ones to go against Europe. The onus would then move on to Poland, the Czech Republic and the UK, the countries where a "no" as the most chances of winning. In the meantime, the business of the EU will start again, with the big discussions on the 2007-2013 budget – likely to be acrimonious – to start. The scare of the narrow French win would certainly influence discussions towards a more social agenda, in my view.

– a French "non" (and/or a Dutch one) would certainly be followed pretty quickly be calls by European leaders for the ratification process to continue, to give other countries a chance to give their own opinion (if 80% or more of countries, but not all, ratify, they have agreed to discuss how to move forward again). It would in all likelihood also be followed by a Dutch no, and the British government (which takes the rotating presidency of Europe for the second half of this year and thus has the administrative responsibility to organize discussions between countries in the European council) would have a big mess on its hands. France will push for more "social" stuff, but will have limited support; in all likelihood, with the German election campaign under way (it’s expected in the autumn), the mood will become pretty acrimonious, with fighting about the budget (the French want to protect their (extravagant) agricultural subsidies, the Brits want to protect their (equally extravagant) rebate, the Spanish want to protect their (increasingly undeserved) structural subsidies, the Poles want more, and the Germans and Dutch want to pay less), and about any European directive that has any whiff of being market friendly. There will not be any sensible stuff happening for at least a year, I’d say.

two radically different "non"

What will make France’s position especially difficult is that the "non" vote will be equally split between two radically opposed strands:

– the "non" of the right, which is about sovereignty. People on that side don’t like the current big Europe with its many poor new members (this is delayed vote against enlargement), with France’s loss of influence, and with Turkey potentially joining in. A good chunk of that vote comes from supporters of Le Pen’s National Front, with its anti-immigrant, protectionist and populist ideology; another part comes from the more mainstream right (people like De Villier’s MPF), which resent Europe’s increasing federalist bent and the "far away Brussels bureaucracy" – these are fairly similar to the British conservatives, although they are probably a lot more protectionist and extra on the economic front (but then a lot of the French right is like that, i.e. basically paternalist and anti-market). Overall, with the government being from the right, a lot of people from the right will vote "oui" out of party loyalty.

– the "non" of the left is more complex. I have been highly critical of it, as I think it is very misguided, and thus am probably not the best person to describe it but I’ll have a try anyway (but I hope that the several French kossacks that have stated in previous diaries that they will vote "non" will join in the comments to provide a better description if they feel that I have unfairly described their position).  The argument is that the current Constitution is too "libérale" (i.e. market-oriented in the French meaning of that word). It focuses too much on economic policies and free trade and not much on social rights and issues, and, as it is a solemn document, it will freeze Europe into that unfavorable framework for the left. Many arguments also go on to say that it is not a proper Constitution, being absurdly long, too detailed on many topics (again, especially on economic policies) and inaccessible to the population. It fails to say what Europe stands for and what Europeans really want to do together, and to really stand for the right values.

These two strands weigh about the same, i.e. about 25%+ of the population each, but the leftist one has been more volatile, with the socialist voters torn between the two options.

what will happen next on the left and on the right

I’ve written briefly above about the European consequences of the vote, but the biggest impact is likely to be domestic, as the campaign has pitted against each other politicians that are formally part of the same camp (the sovereigntist right against Chirac, and the idealist left against the realist left, with the fracture right in the middle of the Socialist Party). There has been a lot of acrimony and it is hard to see how some groups are going to manage to even pretend to any reconciliation.

One thing is certain: whatever the vote, the current Prime Minister, Jean-Pierre Raffarin’s days are numbered. He will probably leave even faster in the case of a "oui" (he can at least say that he got that through, and leave honorably; ) than in the case of a "non" (to avoid the acknowledgment by Chirac that the vote was about any domestic issues). In any case, he will be replaced by a guy supposed to represent a more "socially minded" policy. The front runners for the job are Dominique de Villepin, the infamous foreign minister during the Iraq war and currently interior minister, Philippe Douste-Blazy, currently the health minister, or Michèle Alliot-Marie, the (female) Defense minister. De Villepin, fully loyal to Chirac, is said to be the front runner, but is hated by Sarkozy, Chirac’s main rival on the right and the leader of the UMP, the main party of the right. Sarkozy would be another option for Prime Minister, but Chirac really hates him and does not seem to want to go through a new "cold" cohabitation with him; also, he would not really fit the desire for a more "social" policy. On the other hand, he is extremely popular for his perceived straight talking and could be seen as a change from "politics as usual" which is what people really don’t like about Chirac. The Chirac-Sarkozy duel will last until the presidential election in 2007 and will dominate the politics of the right in any case, so the result of the referendum will not change much. Chirac is unpopular, a "non" will be (rightly) blamed on him, but he will not really profit from a "oui" which will be decided on the left. Sarkozy has campaigned for the "oui", as fits the leader of the main governmental party, but neither result will have much an impact for him.

On the left, things are a lot harder to fathom, because the campaign has shown a deep chasm between two strands of the left, which I will label, for lack of better terms, the hard left and the centrist left. The communists, trotskysts and other assorted leftists have traditionally been anti-EU, and their position in this campaign is coherent with their previous policies. They state they are pro-European, but they have always been against Europe as it is (with its focus on economic and commercial issues). This has not usually prevented them from joining the socialists to win elections together and even to govern together (like in 1997-2002 when there were communist ministers), but this time, they have campaigned hard against the socialists and relations have turned a lot more acrimonious than is usual between them. This is linked, of course, to the fact that the Socialist Party, which is the main party of the left, has been literally split in two over the issue. Despite an internal referendum last December, where the "oui" was supported by 59% of card-carrying members of the party, the partisans of the "non" have decided to campaign actively, ignoring party discipline, and joining the other partisans of the left "non" in political meetings. That "non" camp is itself fragmented (too many egos, which I won’t bore you with), but has been made very credible by the presence of Laurent Fabius, the former Prime Minister of Mitterrand in 1984-86 (when he signed the European Single Act which created the single market) and finance minister of Jospin in 2001-2002, formerly identified with the rightist wing of the party. He is widely suspected to have chosen the "non" as a tactical move in the perspective of the 2007 presidential elections, to shed his "centrist" reputation and differentiate himself from the other likely socialist candidates, several of which are also centrists like Dominique Strauss-Kahn.
The official campaign of the socialist party, lead by François Hollande, in favor of the "oui" has been  much less visible and dynamic than the campaign of the "non", and they have been fighting each other a lot more than anyone else, as it is the vote of the socialists which will essentially decide the final result. As a result of this campaign, it is not clear how the two halves will be able to be reconciled, even though they know that they have to in the perspective of the following elections (presidential and for parliament, in that order in 2007). The camp that wins the referendum will obviously have an advantage in the aggiornamento that will follow, but it is not clear how any side can actually translate that into real political gains.

In the case of a "oui" victory, the current leadership of the party will be comforted, and it is likely that they will exclude the most aggressive supporters of the "non". The others will be asked to pledge loyalty or to leave, and it can be expected that a number will come back to the fold, although the political differences will remain and can be expected to burst out at any time.
in the case of a "non" victory, the socialist leadership has announced that there will be a party congress in the autumn, to decide the political line and the leadership of the party; will Fabius succeed in his take over of the party and a possible unification of the left on a hard line, or will the party split hopelessly, with unpredictable consequences, into factions that do not talk to each other and start organizing separately?

In any case, Chirac will have succeeded in his attempt to weaken the socialists, although he probably did not expect that he would be so weakened himself in the process. France will have to live for 2 years without any new elections to set a policy and will thus have a weak government, a majority right beset by personal rivalries, and a very divided left. In the case of a "non", the country will further have to live with the aftermath of that vote on the European scene, where that self-absorbed vote will certainly not be appreciated and where France’s voice is likely to become much less audible.

My bet: 50.5% for the "oui".

Comments

My bet: 50.5% for the “oui”.
Intrade says currently 26.5% chance for a yes vote. Those traders are usually correct, so what are you putting behind your bet?
I’m willing to risk a bottle of Langavulin against your.

Posted by: b | May 28 2005 19:08 utc | 1

b – I’ll take your bet on the referendum, although the probability you quote sounds about right, or evne better than I expected. My track record of going against the polls (cf Bush-Kerry) is not very good, so you’ll probably win, but I cannot in all decency bet against the “oui”.

Posted by: Jérôme | May 28 2005 19:24 utc | 2

also – please kindly consider recommending the current diary on dKos:
link
but come back here to comment!

Posted by: Jérôme | May 28 2005 19:26 utc | 3

me too b i have thought 51% & have sd so publically but really all this week i’ve heard the no from so many different people in my work & life & some of the no’s coming from people i wouldn’t have thought would – but it is clear that the majority of these see the oui as representing the death of the social – so i wouldn’t bet on it either

Posted by: remembereringgiap | May 28 2005 19:55 utc | 4

with what i have heard on this issue, i hope for a ‘non’ vote.
i fail to understand your logic concerning the socialist ‘non’ groups being anti-EU because of the lack of social issues being attended to. i see it as a pro-EU with a social conscience and anti-corporate EU.
i compare this to my situation as a canuck. i was against NAFTA because its an agreement benefitting corporations. a NAFTA considering social/labour issues would be ok by me.
my knowledge of EU issues is weak at best. so tear apart my logic and teach me something.:-)

Posted by: lenin’s ghost | May 29 2005 3:55 utc | 5

You didn’t go against the polls in Bush v Kerry, Jerome; you went against the Diebold black boxes. The polls supported you in that contest. How are the votes counted in France?

Posted by: lonesomeG | May 29 2005 5:44 utc | 6

Allo Jérôme, ceçi, c’est mon prémier fois ici sur la lune d’Alabama…
I’m the same zentiger from dKos & Booman Trib. You may remember that my wife & therefore my daughter are French. Well, my daughter’s Godfather is also. «Parrain» came over on Thursday night. Before he came, I said, “You ought to ask him how he’s going to vote on the Constitution.” My wife said, “Well, I’m sure he’s going to vote «non», but I’ll ask him.”
«Parrain» is an American citizen. He’s as American, if not moreso, than any American I know, although he’s embarrassed by his (thick) French accent. He speaks American English fluently. By comparison, my wife’s accent is flawlessly American, but she makes mistakes in grammer that «Parrain» never would. My wife is facile with language, she majored in Chinese at the University of Toulouse.
«Parrain» is a Travel Agent, and was hugely affected by 9/11 and was saddened and angry at the difficulty he had with some [Republican] clients and friends in the aftermath.
I have never seen my wife as involved in a political disscussion as when she asked «Parrain» about the European Constitution. He answered exactly how I expected him to, namely that, “If you want to counter Bush, you have to make Europe stronger, and the more-socialist-than-poorer-European-countries attitude of France against the Constitution will only help Bush.”
I got a few words in edgewise, mainly along the (“NON”) lines of, “Constitutions should be straightforward and easily understood.” and the (“OUI”) lines of, “European cooperation has always been complicated. Consult people and resources you know and trust to make your decision.”
Totally contrary, I know, but I couldn’t follow the logic of the conversation, although I understood every word, and when it got off-topic (IMHO), I spoke up. I think I ended up gainging respect from my daughter’s Godfather (for backing him up), and my wife for remaining neutral. Then everyone drank a lot.
In the morning, while serving my daughter breakfast, I found a crumpled-up «NON» vote under her little container of cookies. I thought maybe my wife had changed her mind, but actually, she had donated her little paper «OUI» to «Parrain» to deposit on Saturday at the Consulate (he had accidentally crumpled up his «OUI», thinking it was the «NON»). My wife didn’t need the little paper votes, because she votes by proxy («procuration»). «Parrain» votes at the French Consulate.
So… «parrain» will vote «OUI» with my wife’s little paper ballot, and my wife has told her Dad to vote «NON» on Saturday (today) on her behalf.
Moral of the Story:
I WISH WE HAD GODDAMNED LITTLE PAPER BALLOTS IN THIS COUNTRY.

Posted by: zentiger | May 29 2005 8:02 utc | 7

P.S. I wish you’d posted this at Booman Tribune.
I looked for it there and couldn’t find it.

Posted by: zentiger | May 29 2005 8:06 utc | 8

lonesomeG – zentiger replied indirectly: we have paper ballots, to be inserted in transparent voting boxes that are counted in public. Each voting booth has the same number of voters (approximately 1,000) and all parties can send observers, in addition to the civil servants who run the show. You get the bulletins in advance by mail but they are also available at the voting booth in any case.
zentiger – I did not cross post at BT as my dKos diary was front paged and I focused on that thread yesterday. I will do a live thread tonight – and probably several, this one here, at dKos and at BT. Thanks for your story.

Posted by: Jérôme | May 29 2005 8:20 utc | 9

The French quite often seem to enjoy doing the contrary of what others think they will/ought to do. So what about a sensational ‘oui’, with everybody in France immediately afterwards starting to claim how wrong that was?

Posted by: teuton | May 29 2005 8:59 utc | 10

I understand the urge build a strong Europe as quickly as possible, particularly in the current geopolitical climate.
But the analogy to NAFTA is probably correct: undemocratic multinational agreements have a way of turning nasty.
It’s probably a mistake to build a stronger EU without giving the parliament a lot more power, and without getting some safeguards down in writing. If you don’t, you’ll find that your national democratic process is continually overruled by the bureaucrats in Brussels, and you won’t be able to do anything about it.
If France votes OUI, you’re only hope will be to heavily revise the consitution in 15 years or so–because as it stands, Europe will quickly degenerate into an uglier version of the US.

Posted by: Eric | May 29 2005 14:21 utc | 11

Very strong participation, pretty much unprecedented – it will be even HIGHER than for the first round of the 2002 Presidential election (presidential votes being those with the highest participation in France).
66% at 7pm. Likely to be above 75% in the end.
This makes me hopeful for the “oui”.

Posted by: Jérôme | May 29 2005 18:52 utc | 12

It is incomprehensible to me how anyone can support the EU – especially the constitution – if they oppose the current US administration and its policies.
I can’t think of any other state with an obligation to imperialist policy right in the constituton.
Perhaps it will enable the EU to stand against US expansionism – but do you really believe that people care who is bombing their house?
Or is it the memory of the peaceful “cold war” (just in case – that is sarcasm) that makes you crave a second superpower to balance things out?
Right from its start as the coal and steel union, EU has been a project of, by and for the biggest companies – only benefitting the majority of europeans when it benefitted the corporations.

Posted by: OnkelJonas | May 29 2005 19:27 utc | 13

jérôme
if you read between the lines of the commentators on france info from sciencepo & the poll people – i think you can read that the yes lost & decisively
evidently swissies on their tv are saying the same
wewill soon have to leanr to bow down before the emporer

Posted by: remembereringgiap | May 29 2005 19:32 utc | 14

I am very hopeful for Europe, no matter the outcome. The European Social contract balances fairness and freedome. In the U.S. the Neocons are strictly for freedome without fairness. FwF allows them to pursue what they really are after – ever greater concentrations of wealth and power without having to contemplate whether or not it right or fair.
Go Europe, Go Japan, Go South Korea. Go Canada. Teach my nation a lesson – the Importance of Fairness in Politics, Economics and Social Contract.

Posted by: Timka | May 29 2005 19:34 utc | 15

Oh well, Jêróme, at least you didn’t bet anything nice. It’s only Scotch.

Posted by: Colman | May 29 2005 19:38 utc | 16

Okay, it’s 55% for “non”. No doubt there.
It’s big enough that there will be pressure for Chirac to resign or to have early parliament elections.

Posted by: Jérôme | May 29 2005 20:10 utc | 17

As a European………
Regardless of the result in France, the project will move on.

Posted by: Friendly Fire | May 29 2005 20:11 utc | 18

Yup. Sigh, listen to all the pundit whining and the naysayers crowing, then move on and try and make things better.

Posted by: Colman | May 29 2005 20:20 utc | 19

Yes, but who do we make it better with?

Posted by: Jérôme | May 29 2005 20:21 utc | 20

Chirac speaks:
Quick summary:
You have chosen democratically to reject the Constitution.
We’re still part of Europe and we’ll fulfill our obligations
The ratification process is underway. Others will have their say. In the meantime, current treaties will apply.
At the next European summit (16 June) I will defend France’s position, including this vote.
You have expressed your worries and hopes. I will hear it and will give a new push on the domestic front. I will inform you in the coming days of my decisions.
he also said that this vote will not help France defend its interests on the European stage.
Sarkozy speaks
Passionate debate and strong vote
Very strong message, following 2002 and 2004 votes
The French want real change, away from habits, frilosity, immobility
They want a more protective, more democratic and closer to their daily worries
I regret this vote, but Europe cannot stay with the unsatisfactory current treaties
We need to discuss with others howx to change rules to function at 25
We need to reinforce “préférence communautaire”, fight delocalisation, have an immigration policy.
But this message is not only about Europe, but alos about their desire to live better, their fear of unemployment. We need to rebuild our social model. we must recreate hope. We need an ambitious programme, with major changes in our policies. Full employment is not impossible, as shown in other countries. We need to put everything on the table, change the old recipes.
It’s adifficult period that begins, it requires courage, strength, and unity of the UMP. I will try to help to find a solution for France.
He is clearly bidding for the Prume Ministership, and wants to set the terms for a new policy, which sounds like a hard right (the French way) – more labor flexibility, but more protectionism.
Yes, the left will get what they voted for…

Posted by: Jérôme | May 29 2005 20:49 utc | 21

i think france will feel in a very short time that it missed an heroic & historic opportunity
the no of the left here is both self defeating & self destructive
make no mistake this is the beginning of her marginalisation & the beginning of the isolation of the kind of politics that has halted in some ways the venality of us imperialism
it is a sad night for france but she does not know it & the communist party as an appareil has proved once again that as an appareil it has betrayed communists, it has betrayed internationalism & it has weakened the fight against us imperialism
& make no mistake the wonderboys of washington & whitehall will plough europe with their puppies in germany, in italy & here in france
it also marks a profound crisis in the politics of france. i weep for her tonight & wonder at the idiot smiles of my erstwhile comrades who have joined the fascists & the empire in turning what could have become wonderful into something comic perhaps even tragic

Posted by: remembereringgiap | May 29 2005 20:52 utc | 22

& the swine sarkozy will become our new prime minister & he is a rght winger right at home with senator coleman or jesse helms

Posted by: remembereringgiap | May 29 2005 20:55 utc | 23

Jérôme, first I would like to thank you for your exellent articles on the vote. However, I still feel this no vote is a chance for Europe, one the will include the people more directly in the process.
I just read here that the participation was at 82% – thats a lot. So it clearly touched people at some level. Well, this will be interesting times – and time will show if this was good or bad. My guess is, as we say here in Switzerland, ‘the soup will not be eaten as hot as it is cooked’.

Posted by: Fran | May 29 2005 21:01 utc | 24

fran
you & others are speaking as if we are living in a history as normal. we are not. we are living through a historical period of the greatest tensions & the greatest accelerations
& in the middle of this chaos, this apocalypse – people want absolute & simple answers – the very answers which are useless in this time
i see nothing of ‘good moment’ in what has passed
all i see is fear dressing herself for even greater atrocities & neglect

Posted by: remembereringgiap | May 29 2005 21:06 utc | 25

Comments from the NZZ in German So leicht stirbt die EU nicht – or plan b

Posted by: Fran | May 29 2005 21:06 utc | 26

Fran – can you summarise?
Hollande (socilaist leader, pro “oui”):
Major decision, all the stronger as strong participation
bad for Europee, deprived of its rules
reflects the anguish, anger, and exasperation of the French agaisnt Chirac, who broke all his promises and did not listen to earlier votes
anger against the prime minister who has been a failure ( a succession of failures)
This vote is a rejection of the current power, the unhappiness with the economic situation, unemployment, wages. europe unfairly blamed.
Socialists, and I am proud of it, fololowing their European tradition, their internal vote, made a choice to separate the text of the Treaty from the domestic context. They should not regret it. It was hard to be heard, as it was divide”d, some refusing to follow internal rules.
The right has failed, and Chirac promises more of the same, even with a new government, with the same results. Nothing should be expected from Sarkozy’s bid either – it’s more of the same.
It’s up to the left to reunite and to get ready for a real change. The socialists who were true to their ideals shouls stand together, and decide their own paty. Militants will decide, I promise it.
Europe should not fall victim to the right’s failure. It is up to the socialists to provide a new perspective in Europe, with a new, credilbe project.

Posted by: Jérôme | May 29 2005 21:09 utc | 27

R’giap – sometimes I wonder, looking at history, if this are not normal times, and what we experienced for a while were anormal. I refuse to go in to this apocalyptic mood – for me this would lead to resignation and I do not want to resign. We will all have to wait and see how it will work out and do our best to make it the best possible outcome. It might not be easy, but that should not keep us from fighting for a better world anyway.

Posted by: Fran | May 29 2005 21:12 utc | 28

the saddest yet the most real commentary has come from the centrist bayrou who has described it as a complete catastrophe, disaster – whose damage would become immediately apparent

Posted by: remembereringgiap | May 29 2005 21:16 utc | 29

the ‘left’ has called it a no of hope
it is the contrary
it is the no of despair & confusion
& for that we will pay a terrible price

Posted by: remembereringgiap | May 29 2005 21:20 utc | 30

“Yes, but who do we make it better with?”
Yourselves. Duh.
A lot less is staked on this vote than the “oui” crowd thinks. Europe will continue to integrate – France isn’t the only driver of integration. The long-term success of the project will more certain if a better constitution is ratified – nobody will ever rally behind a 422 page constitution.

Posted by: Tom DC/VA | May 29 2005 21:32 utc | 31

like i said
With the no, France will enter in double crisis political and institutional.
thank you chirac for that !
the world exist with great tensions and if France become weak. that’s not without consequences for Europe.
perhaps will exist a new negociation for constitution…
but French know what means “changes in our policies for sarkozy.
in Engalnd exist full employement. But how many poors ? inegalities rise with globalisation. Answers are complexe…
we will see…

Posted by: little condorcet | May 29 2005 21:34 utc | 32

littlecondorcet
yes it will mean what it means already in the barbarian capitals of washington & london
the maintenance of a permanant underclass worthy of the definition lupmenproletariat
there will be people working who will be what is indecently called the working poor – the underclass by another name – supposed to be happy with a few crumbs from the table
what it means is the complete & utter destruction of equalities of opportunity in education, health
i do not think i exaggerate. it is already the rality in america, it is the reality of britain & australia
it is the domination of dunces – whole their wolves plunder & rape the material riches & anhilate the cultural patrimoine of “other’ people
little condorcet what we need now is a little more of st just

Posted by: remembereringgiap | May 29 2005 21:42 utc | 33

Thanks to all for your comments. I’m off to bed. I doubt that sleep will come easy, but I’m just too depressed.
To be continued tomorrow.

Posted by: Jérôme | May 29 2005 21:43 utc | 34

Summary of my link above

The EU will not die so easily – or there is a plan b
In the case of a rejection of the constitution an alternative would exist.
The Union will survive, even in a case of a double no by the French and Dutch.
Officially an alternative never exists and yet, usually the day after, it is on the table.
Valéry Giscard d’Estaing, the French ex-president wanted to make believe that there was not ‘plan b’.
In case of a rejection, at present the EU would continue to function on the basis of the current
Before these important days, Brussels went through the different scenarios.
Only a clear double no would be a knock out for the constitution.
Charles Grant thinks that after a phase of confusion the 25 member states will pull together and will consult what of the constitution can be saved. However, a new start for a new draft for a constitution does no one belief in, except for the French opponents.
The plan b, most discussed behind the scene, assumes that even without ratification parts of the constitution can be activated (?). Especially those parts that deal with the role of the EU on the international level. So it could still be possible to create the post of an EU foreign minister.
Also the change from a half-year presidency to a longer one might be a possibility.
The Dutch government could ignore the no if it is small or if participation is below 30%.
Blair might anyway consider dumping the vote and apparently the constitution would have risked rejection also in Denmark and Czechia.

I guess there is no use translating what would happen in case of a French yes.

Posted by: Fran | May 29 2005 21:54 utc | 35

One last post.
Exit poll say that the “oui” was about Europe, whereas the “non” was mostly about domestic issues. What is clear is that neither Chirac nor any government that he can set up in the near future will have any legitimacy and will not be in any position to renegotiate anything in Europe, nor to start any domestic reforms, even with Sarkozy as Prime Minister. France is effectively paralysed until the next elections (and along with it, Europe), due only in 2 years, unless Chirac agrees to early elections (which is highly unlikely). Once France has a new government (after the elections), the most likely scenario is still that this Constitution will be proposed to French voters again. Expect pressure for other governments to keep on the ratification process.

Posted by: Jérôme | May 29 2005 22:23 utc | 36

My € 0.02.
Thanks France for the “non”. And to the Netherland voters please beat those 82% voting rate.
Nothing bad happened. A democratic decision was taken and that is a very good thing in itself. I would have liked the ability to vote on this too, but was not allowed to.
If folks want a different outcome, they will have to deliver something better to vote on.
The Sermon on the Mount is a two pager, a roll of toilet paper has 400 sheets, this “constitution” attempt has some 450.
If you want people to commit to something, keep it short.

Posted by: b | May 29 2005 22:57 utc | 37

i agree with b. if you want a ‘oui’, give the people a good reason to vote for it. this will not destroy the EU. slow change with good changes for the little peoples good is the way to go. fuck the multinational greedheads.
if nothing else, simplicity is good. complex documents are things very the evil to hide their nasty secrets. if you can’t understand the contract, don’t sign it!

Posted by: lenin’s ghost | May 29 2005 23:15 utc | 38

Non is good if we view it as a rejection of the French political class, of their leading people like sheep into the future they dream up with economist and ideologues for the market. Non is good if we see it as proof, should it ever be needed, that people will not drift into abject and hopeless apathy. A referendum, unlike an election means people get a direct say, and of course people realise this and use thier vote when they can see that it can have a clear and decisive effect. The constitution is dead–long live a better constructed, more democratic, more social and less economic constitution that is about people and their real needs and wants. In any case, so says bigger is better. A wholly neoliberalised EU would be much more alienating than one that constantly has to refer back to people to ask their opinion in referenda.

Posted by: theodor | May 30 2005 0:18 utc | 39

Henry Farrell’s take on the vote is interesting.

Posted by: Tom DC/VA | May 30 2005 1:17 utc | 40

The NO on the left is a disaster. An absolute f** disaster.
That constitution was the best that could be hoped for and the Socialists should have stood as one man. As for the French Communists, I am done with them for ever. Hopeless fools.
What do these people think they are playing at? Well, they will have plenty of time to repent, wail, gnash their teeth…
RGiap, Sakorzy won’t be prime minister – he will be the next president.

Posted by: Noisette | May 30 2005 6:55 utc | 41

I too agree with B. Italians don’t
get a referendum, although I suspect that
here a “yes” would win, or at least would have before yesterday’s referendum in France. The crucial problem is to keep the European project alive and fruitful, in short to keep Europe at least as peaceful, just, and prosperous as it has been for the last 50 years. The “no” will slow down a process of European
“federalization”, and, judging from the American experience, that may not be an undesirable outcome. I would be quite happy to see the EU as a counterweight to American
hegemony, but see no reason to believe that
this end can only be achieved, or even best
be achieved, within the framework of the proposed constitution. Another 10 or 15 years of ad hoc measures aimed at
solving concrete problems of intra-European
relations may well provide a more robust “material constitution” than the burocratic
document that has now been rejected.

Posted by: Hannah K. O’Luthon | May 30 2005 8:33 utc | 42

HOK: that’s possible, and the main reason I’m not too pissed about the constitution going down.
What is making me really mad is the “Europe thrown into chaos” headlines. Total bullshit. “Changes to the current rules, which sort of work ok, slowed down: different approach may be needed” would be a more accurate headline, but lacks the drama required to sell papers.
There is no crisis in Europe. The crisis is in China, in Sudan, in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in the US.
The effect of this? To drop the euro vs the dollar without affecting interest rates. Why is this a bad thing? How will it affect oil prices? Will they drop with the euro?

Posted by: Colman | May 30 2005 8:40 utc | 43

Thank God for the good sense of the French people.
Stop using codewords like “the elite” and call it like it is: the French people rejected their Freemasons.
Jerome, you know that Chirac went to London on 25 November 2003 and agreed a new Entente Cordial. Do you know what was agreed? No you do not.
Do you know what happens at the Council? No you do not because it is held in secret?
Do you believe what the Constitution says? Yes? Then take a look
Here http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1998/80042–a.htm#end or
Here http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1998/80042–d.htm
This is the Human Rights Act – the British enactment of the European Convention on Human Rights. And what do we find? We find that TWO ARTICLES ARE MISSING!
ARTICLE 1
The High Contracting Parties shall secure to everyone within their jurisdiction the rights and freedoms defined in Section I of this Convention.
ARTICLE 13
Everyone whose rights and freedoms as set forth in this Convention are violated shall have an effective remedy before a national authority notwithstanding that the violation has been committed by persons acting in an official capacity.
I will tell you what this means if you wish. In the meantime I will limit myself to the observation that it was Giscard who reversed the de Gaulle policy which kept the British Crown out of the Common Market.

Posted by: John | May 31 2005 11:21 utc | 44

Help! How to do HTML tags?

Posted by: John | May 31 2005 11:24 utc | 45

No John it was Pompidou. Who talked with E. Heath alone for 10 hours in early 1971.

Posted by: Blackie | May 31 2005 11:40 utc | 46

Blackie,
I stand corrected.
If you spoke to Heath in 1971 you MUST HAVE discussed the Treason Felony Act, no?

Posted by: John | May 31 2005 13:17 utc | 47

Blackie of Jerome,
Let me put another proposition to you.
What has been put forward as a “constitution” is nothing of the sort. Rather it is an administrative device designed to save the “elite” from their own past perfidy. For that reason all of the previously enacted treaties are re-presented to the people for a second approval.
Let me explain.
When Margaret Thatcher fell in 1990 she was replaced by John Major. The forum was not a General Election, but rather an election amongst Conservative Members of the Commons. Major won a majority of MP votes and so became leader of the largest party in the Commons. It is ASSUMED that he became prime minister at the same time, but this assunption is not correct. Major was never appointed by the QUEEN, and so never received his seal of office.
In other words when Major put his name to the Maastricht Treaty he was acting ultra-vires and his signature was worthless. With all that that implies.
When Blair took over from Major as leader of the largest party in the Commons following the 1997 General Election, he did the same thing. It was not until he was challenged at Feira in June 2000 that the position was normalised, and the United Kingdom again enjoyed a constitutional prime minister.
As an aside, after hundreds of years of prime ministers, Major is the only man that left Parliament completely. He was NOT offered a seat in the Lords.

Posted by: John | May 31 2005 14:05 utc | 48

The majority of Venezuelans are very supportive of the constitution introduced by Hugo Chavez in 1999, so it’s not like we don’t have a recent example of a document that can have massive popular support.
Something went wrong here early on in the process in Europe – wide popular support should have been sought for it from the start.
(Incidentally, the little blue hardback version of Venezuela’s constitution, of which there happens to be a copy on the desk I’m sitting at this week, runs to 421 pages in Spanish, almost same length as the EU constitution in French, I understand.)

Posted by: Dismal Science | Jun 1 2005 13:01 utc | 49

Netherland has voted:
64.8% participation, 37.9 Yes, 62.1% No
Thanks to my Dutch friends. I´ll buy you some gramms next time around.

Posted by: b | Jun 1 2005 20:49 utc | 50

for a reprise on the Frech vote, see Serge Halimi at: http://www.guardian.co.uk/eu/story/0,7369,1497191,00.html

Posted by: theodor | Jun 2 2005 3:06 utc | 51