Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
February 7, 2005
Useless Statistical Almanach n°3 – US Budget Edition

the presentation of the new US federal budget is the ideal time to show what a difference a few *innocuous* hypotheses can make on your headline…

Cbo_budg_def

Luckily, the BBC cuts through the bullshit:

(a few quotes after the fold)

The budget document projects the deficit will rise to $427bn this year, before starting to decline.

Military spending will, however, rise 4.8% to $419.3bn in 2006.

The budget does not include the cost of running military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, for which the administration is expected to seek an extra $80bn from Congress later this year.

(…)

Another key policy spending missing from proposals is the cost of funding the administration’s proposed radical overhaul of Social Security provision, the federal programme on which many Americans rely for their retirement income.

Some experts believe this could require borrowing of up to $4.5 trillion over a 20-year period.

Neither does the budget include any cash to purchase crude oil for the US emergency petroleum stockpile.

(…)

The deficit, partly the result of massive tax cuts early in Mr Bush’s presidency, has been a key factor in pushing the US dollar lower.

The independent Congressional Budget Office estimates that the shortfall could shrink to little more than $200bn by 2009, returning to the surpluses seen in the late 1990s by 2012.

But its estimates depend on the tax cuts not being made permanent, in line with the promise when they were passed that they would “sunset”, or disappear, in 2010.

Most Republicans, however, want them to stay in place.

And the figures also rely on the “Social Security trust fund” – the money set aside to cover the swelling costs of retirement pensions – being offset against the main budget deficit.

Who knew the British were anti-American? Or more to the point – who would have believed such an opinion could be brought so quickly?!

Comments

for which the administration is expected to seek an extra $80bn from Congress later this year.
– There already was a $25 billion “emergency payment” for Iraq this fiscal year which should but do not account in this budget. The $80 billion are on top of that.
Some experts believe this could require borrowing of up to $4.5 trillion over a 20-year period.
– One of these “some experts” is Dick Cheney on FOX:

CHENEY: Well, but, again, remember how much we’re going to borrow. We’re going to borrow $758 million (sic) over the next 10 years to set up the personal retirement accounts. We think that’s a manageable amount.
WALLACE: But trillions more after.
CHENEY: That’s right. Trillions more after that.

The figures also assume that slashing those 150 programs as Bush proposes will go through the house. Maybe five will really be cut eventually.
The defense budget, even with its growth (over 40% under Bush WITHOUT the war costs), proposes some cuts in programs that congress will never agree on and that will thereby not be made.
Republican/Bush solution? Don´t cut any program except Social Security.
Cut the promised and payed for benefits in that program so far that the IOUs given to the SoSec for the payroll tax payed to the governemnt can be silently defaulted on. I.e. steal the savings from the workers so the rich can keep their tax cuts.
Fortunatly that plan does not seem to work – yet.

Posted by: b | Feb 7 2005 23:07 utc | 1

So, the US Army will cost more than 500 *billions* this year?
And Cheney openly speaks of “borrowin” *trillions* for Social Security?
Please, remind me, how do these clowns have any credibility on fiscal issues?

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Feb 7 2005 23:29 utc | 2

@Clueless
They do have credibility. They promised their base (the real one, not the voting sheeps) one tax cut each year, and they did deliver.
They promised massive money to the defense industry, and they did deliver.
The promise to “kill the beast” of new deal government, and they might deliver.

Posted by: b | Feb 7 2005 23:41 utc | 3

This illustrates one of the fundamental problems with conventional analysis of the U.S. federal budget. Ever since the Reagan Administration, people have become accomstomed to this artifical dichotomy between the “defense” budget and all the other “discretionary” funded programs. Since 2001, “defense” has been expanded to include “homeland security” – a catagory which didn’t exist in the 1980s. So its just presented as a given that growth in discretionary spending in “defense” must keep rising, while “all other discretionary” (everything from housing for the homeless and low-income people to college education grants for lower income people to operating national parks to health clinics….)must be cut to reduce the annual deficit between total revenue and total spending.
Why does “defense” and more recently “homeland security” get this special treatment? It is all discretionary spending….

Posted by: maxcrat | Feb 8 2005 2:18 utc | 4

Actually, the dept of homeland security rolled some other departments and programs into it. And, the cuts Bushie is talking about only affects about 6% of the total busget if you include non-descretionary spending.
Our best chance for a shift in budget priorities is another party in one of the branches of government. Otherwise the budget will continue o balloon. The neo-cons want their war, at the same time they know they can bankrupt the country as Grover Norquist would like and to kill the beast of government. They know exactly what their doing. You don’t actually think the rich will suffer do you?

Posted by: jdp | Feb 8 2005 2:35 utc | 5

Who are “the rich” by the way? I keep meaning to ask.

Posted by: Colman | Feb 8 2005 7:56 utc | 6

what comes after trillion… guhz(zler)illion?
OT – any ideas as to why MediaMatters server is down??

Posted by: esme | Feb 8 2005 9:49 utc | 7

@Colman – who are the rich
from a WaPo OpEd today:

Perhaps a good way to begin debate on President Bush’s bold and commendable ideas for an “ownership society” would be to ask, “Who owns America?” After all, if ownership policies further concentrate the ownership of assets for those who already own a lot, while doing little for those who own nothing, what’s the point?
According to the Federal Reserve, the bottom 40 percent of the nation owns less than 1 percent of the nation’s wealth, while the bottom 60 percent owns less than 5 percent. The top 20 percent of our population commands 83 percent of the wealth.

The US income/wealth “pyramid” has very broad base and a very high peak but is quite thin in the middle. Other countries pyramids have a smaller (poor) base, a broad middle and a not so high peak.
I would characterize those on the peak (top 1-2% owner/income) as rich. When Warren Buffet, no.2 on the US peak, says (as he did) that he his paying the same amount of tax as his secretary, while lots of folks can not afford health insurance and need food stamps, there is something wrong (and no, its not that secretary’s salery).

Posted by: b | Feb 8 2005 10:05 utc | 8

@esme
any ideas as to why MediaMatters server is down??
It may have someting to do with:Gannongate

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Feb 8 2005 10:10 utc | 9

B: There are several serious analysts who have compared the US socio-economic structure to 3rd world countries, and it clearly looks like that.
Of course, the worst is that many in the bottom 60% would consider themselves “quite rich” and freak out when there’s talk about taxing more the have-mores, because they still stupidly dream that one day *they* will be billionaires.

Posted by: CluelessJoe | Feb 8 2005 11:22 utc | 10

yes Uncle$, i’m bleary-eyed these last few days following SusanG’s diaries and developments in the comments at Dkos. guess they’ve gotten too close, but no reveal just yet.
excuse the OT interruption…

Posted by: esme | Feb 8 2005 11:26 utc | 11

When Warren Buffet, no.2 on the US peak, says (as he did) that he his paying the same amount of tax as his secretary
same proportion of his income is what he said

Posted by: mistah charley | Feb 8 2005 12:46 utc | 12

mistah – you are correct, sorry. Anyhow – he thinks its wrong – me too.

Posted by: b | Feb 8 2005 13:01 utc | 13

i have always found it weird that state finances are discussed in public only in terms of ‘budget’ and ‘budget surpluses/deficit’ but seldom in terms of real GDP and even more seldom in a way which would connect what all those surpluses and deficits mean in terms of real money.
said in another way, the size of the US economy is about $10 trillion per year. the public (govt) part of the economy is about $1 trillion (correct me if i’m wrong pls). this is what is called the govt budget. the budget is composed by money which the govt takes in thru taxation and other interventions in the countries economy, plus money which they borrow. all of this is the money the govt has in hand to cover its operating expenses.
a ‘budget surplus’ does not mean that the govt made an operational profit as the term suggests, but that they spent less than they did not use up their allocated budget, and a ‘budget deficit’ means that they spent more than they allocated themselves in the budget thus being forced to borrow the difference.
but a budget in itself does not say much about the whole operation. budgets are a tricky thing in that they are not money, but the right to withdraw money from a heap of money theoretically set aside for some purpose. that is IMO a very important differentiation.
to get a better appreciation for the whole picture one has to look at the total accumulated debt of the US govt, foreign and national. the published figures are between $35 and $40 trillion. that means, to put things in a context, between 0,7 and 4 times the US economy, or between 7 and 40 times the annual operating budget of the US govt.
from what is known, at least 50% of the US budget is used up to pay for a hypertrophe military and the expenses it has generated in the past, and a substantial part of the other 50% of the budget are used to pay off debt of some kind. one example of a debt-generating fuckup, of which the US has had many in the past, is the current iraq invasion. this little ‘project’ is said to consume up to $5 billion per month and should have been financed with iraqs oil, but if we suppose that iraq is generating in average 1,5M BPD at $45/barrel we get roughly $2 billion revenue, a difference of about $3 billion. but even these numbers have problems because part of the oil is smuggled out by nationals and part is used for internal consumption, and the $2B revenue will not show up in USGov accounts but rather in halliburton accounts in the bahamas. thus the iraq invasion is a lose-lose project.
before that background of course it makes sense for the USGov to publish nice excel scenarios with no base in reality. looting the US social security will also not help because this money, rather than being used to pay govt debts or expenses will also be diverted to offshore accounts after some cosmetic vituperations in the media, the US tax payers will be screwed one way or other.
the US economy is going in a very wrong direction, and even if they had a responsible and honest administration – which they have not – the problems look barely recoverable to me. chinese, russians and lastly the G7 fatcats have made it known during the last 10 days or so that they know everybody has noticed the extent of the troubles and in such a situation they cant play innocent anymore.
depending on what one wishes all of this may be good or ad news. i tend to think that we will see the crash of the US economy and this will incapacitate their war machinery and thus this is all good, but i am afraid this is wishful thinking and the US economy will crash, or fizzle out, but the war machinery will continue functioning.

Posted by: name | Feb 8 2005 13:05 utc | 14

BUSH UNVEILS NEW BUDGET

Link to ACLU → Link to ACLU
I don’t know if you ever read cartoon “Alan Ford”?
I think the name of the character was something like” Super hicc/up/” (alcoholic) and his motto was that he is stealing from poor to give it to the rich” (total opposite of legendary Robin Hood).
At the time it was funny to read…not any more…

Posted by: vbo | Feb 8 2005 13:23 utc | 15

@mistah charley
Thanks for catching that error – reminds me of the old Japanese proverb:
“When three gather, the mind of the Buddha.”
That’s what I love about this place, people know how to get together and complement each other.

Posted by: Citizen | Feb 8 2005 15:23 utc | 16

That is an excellent post, Name. (what an original moniker) It helps to open up the trillion-dollar mystery a bit more.
Don’t forget that most people have not a clue, and care not a whit about this budget subject. So it is easy to use incomprehensible terms and language style to keep most folks totally out of the loop.
Leave it to the pros; all you have to do is work and consume and send in your W-2s

Posted by: rapt | Feb 8 2005 15:24 utc | 17

@name
a ‘budget surplus’ does not mean that the govt made an operational profit as the term suggests, but that they spent less than they did not use up their allocated budget, and a ‘budget deficit’ means that they spent more than they allocated themselves in the budget thus being forced to borrow the difference.

Color me ignorant here, but does this mean that a budget is never indexed to projections about what the IRS and customs people et al can collect in revenue?
If the deficit is merely an amount over the allocated budget, why don’t administrations merely allocate more and erase the deficit by definition?
I would really like to figure this through.

Posted by: Citizen | Feb 8 2005 15:32 utc | 18

Obligatory quote:
“You lie with the numbers you have, not the numbers you’d like to have” – ronald dumbsfield

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Feb 8 2005 16:26 utc | 19

From Wikipedia

A budget deficit occurs when an entity (often a government) spends more money than it takes in. The opposite is a budget surplus.

Quite simple – if people would really count it like this.
The deicit/surplus is NOT the difference between the estimate at the begin of the year and the real numbers at the end. (Bush tried that trick last year by prognosing some 521 b$ discretionary spending and then in the end saying he only spend some 420 b$ less – nobody accepted that trick because the first number was rediculed a week after it was published)
There are many “tricks” in US budget discussions. First is the differentiation between discretionary and non discretionary spending. When you make the bills and laws that can influence both, they both are a reflection of your policy so both should count. Also where is all the money for the military? What Bush is trying now is defining just a small part, 18%, of the total spending as “influentiable” spending and only in that part is he asking for cuts. Also to balance the budget, the intake could be easily expanded – just raise taxes by repelling the tax cuts in the first place. Reading todays paper most journos fall for these tricks and they start to discuss only in the narrow range of “influentiable” spendings.
The big elephant in the room of US budget politics is of course Social Security. Since the payroll tax increases in 1983 SoSec collects more money than it spends.
The surplus money is used to buy interest paying assets. In some years SoSec may have less cash intake that cash outlay and then it can use the interest plus sell the assets to get the cash. The interest bearing assets in question are US government bonds. SoSec has quite a few of them and will need to sell some in future.
All is well in principle, but the US Government never counted the money it did lend from SoSec as a lending. It didn´t even include this into budget deficit/surplus announcements. It just did take the pay roll tax and counted it as intake. It gave SoSec an I-Own-You paper and forgot to keep this in the budget calculation.
Now SoSec will one day try to sell its assets, those IOU papers, and the governement would find that it would have to borrow that sum on the open market or to increase taxes to be able to pay back these debts.
Some folks don´t like the idea and would like to (silently) default on governement debt to SoSec. Best way to do so is to just cut back on the promised SoSec payments to individuals.
“Hey, yes you did pay payroll taxes for SoSec since 1983, but you know, that money is spend. We had to buy these fighter jets and we had to have 12 carriers at sea and by the way it was all in the media? Why didn´t you read it? Hey it was you who elected us”
The US is overconsuming and is having quite a binge for some years now. The hangover will not be pretty.

Posted by: b | Feb 8 2005 16:38 utc | 20

@Citizen
i wont “color you ignorant”. i admit that i do not understand budgetary management in detail. it is quite possible that the govt adjusts/indexes the budget to their expected intake, it would stand to reason that they would do this especially if it makes them look better to the lenders. but after all adjustments/reindexations/… are done, a “budget deficit” means to me that they spent more money than they budgeted and a “budget surplus” means that at the end of the period they spent less than they allocated as budget (this situation is a nightmare for bureaucrats everywhere).
re your 2nd question i think this must have to something to do with following the laws and not looking bad before lenders, both important considerations when spending other peoples money. the USGov is still – if only formally – bound by laws, and the law says that congress authorizes the budget and modifications (“gives them the money”) as i understand the formal/legal process in the US.
in my understanding the govt cant ‘merely allocate themselves more’ but they still have to go thru the motions and go to congress and ask them for permission to spend/lend more money, and in fact this happens regularly if you follow the news. and then, as mentioned in the article, there is extra-budgetary spending which is not accounted against “the budget” and does not count towards its deficit or surplus.
i would like to add that it was not my intention to discuss budgeting but to outline in very simple terms how the US economy looks and what the “useless statistics” which have been published lately imply for the future. my own work experience with budgets is that they are messy, politicized to the extreme, and can contribute everything towards making the true standing of a company unknowable even to insiders. the same applies to state economies on a bigger scale.

Posted by: name | Feb 8 2005 17:36 utc | 21

name, thx, I find it difficult to judge the figures as I cannot relate them to anything much, and don’t grasp the larger context.
Here in CH, though the left often yells “tax the rich more”, and the right usually moans “businesses (-> employment) are dying”, neither attitude is considered very PC.
What counts the most is how that money is spent.
Spent in the right way, the right place, the right program, with no waste, no fat (an ideal, natch.) The spending has to be coordinated with the private sector, has to follow laid down principles, etc. The money has to be accounted for, the effect must be evaluated, etc.
What I have noticed in the US (and GB), from a *few* visits and talks in schools and hospitals is that many professionals are extremely dedicated and intelligent, well-trained, and willing to give their all. However, they are peculiarly dependent on a host of regulations which they hate, don’t really understand, and can’t anticipate. They live in a world which is chaotic and uncertain, because of that can’t plan for the future; they never coordinate with others, or only sometimes poorly, and have no political clout. They are dependent and subservient, and thus will take what they can get, steal and cheat if needs be.
One example that is easy to understand: many children in the US are poorly fed. These children cost the state a huge amount – they can consult ‘for free’ for illnesses like asthma, allergies, wonky knees, failure to thrive, etc. The specialists who see them generally rake in several hundred dollars an hour. Often, the only thing that can be done (or should be done) is to make out meal plans, and somehow get the caretakers to apply these plans or ‘eating conditions.’ Often, the caretakers simply can’t manage it (single mothers who are not home, etc.) Deadlock. An expensive professional is paid to give granny advice, which cannot be followed. Nobody – neither the single mother, nor the supremely trained medico – can affect the situation and do anything at all for the child.
Another, from an emergency doctor in a big city: some repeat clients ‘cost’ up to a million dollars. (?) “They are shot in the streets (drugs, etc.) and we fix em up – save their lives over and over again”. The emergency ambulance has a staff of 5: highly trained driver, emergency surgeon, male nurse, bodyguard with gun, and photographer who is also responsible for lights, or lighting (in street, collect usable body parts.) An extra person may also be present. The photographer is necessary because no-one else has free hands to take the pix that will be necessary for the inevitable law suits.
bit long, ‘scusi .. the drift is clear.

Posted by: Blackie | Feb 8 2005 19:23 utc | 22

name,
As a long time ‘student’ of economics, your post just helped consolidate years of economic stuff into a finally grasped (partially) concept. I have begun to understand. The total accumulated debt of the US govt, foreign and national of $35 and $40 trillion is largely held by the holders of US Govt. securities (what a newspeak, slipped in there way back); treasuries, bonds, fannie may’s etc. and those that hold these securities will be paid back, if at all, with fresh greenbacks off the printing press with no more backing them than W’s integrity.
That means that any greenbacks you & I own, either in paper or bank accounts or market securities are going to buy less and less food, clothing, shelter, heat etc. My IRA and SS entitlement will become less and less valuable as the inflation ensues. They have been stealing from me for years and I knew it but I just realized to what extent and more clearly how. I now am beginning to recognize a more illuminated path to protecting myself, to whatever extent is still possible.
I must transfer my assets valued in US$’s into something of more real value than paper and ink that is becoming progressively less valuable. So some questions for the more economically astute than I in this community.
Other currencies?
Having been blessed to be born in Canada, I supposedly can always again make her “my home and native land”. So Canadian $’s would make a lot of sense but the Canadian economy is so closely aligned with the US that I sense a high risk factor. Euro’s seem a better bet in currencies but I’m leaning toward 50/50 split.
b,
You spoke to this issue to me/us some time back but let’s revisit it. I think there may be many around here that would like to be better prepared.
Market securities?
Getting out of the stock market, or at least US based portfolios seems wise. I would expect to see (pure neophyte speculation) the US stock market soar but in continually devalued US $’s for a net loss. Maybe other markets will fare better and I would guess that Europeans are the best bet. Asian? Iffy.
Anyway, I’d be interested in most any opinion here regarding these considerations. I’m am not asking for advice but the opinions here I respect and will surely integrate into my personal economic actions.
OT.
As a usual lurker, I have learned so much since I ran across you all back at the Whiskey Bar that I feel like I’m getting a free education in contemporary world and human events. Thanks all.

Posted by: Juannie | Feb 8 2005 23:01 utc | 23

Here in CH, though the left often yells “tax the rich more”, and the right usually moans “businesses (-> employment) are dying”…
This sums up the Swedish debate.
…neither attitude is considered very PC. What counts the most is how that money is spent.
Oh, why can´t that be the case here? I know, maybe cause we don´t get to vote on issues, only on politicians. And the current politicians in power (left and right) chooses rather a growing mutual contempt between people and politicians than give up any power.
Juannie: I would think gold is pretty secure in the long run. But I am no economist, so don´t take my word for it.

Posted by: A swedish kind of death | Feb 8 2005 23:27 utc | 24

One point of clarification (possibly) going back to “name”‘s comment about the U.S. federal budget deficit or surplus. The deficit or surplus is an annual figure that is derived from total federal revenues minus total federal outlays. In other words, the total amount of dollars in the U.S. Treasury as of midnight on September 30 of any given “fiscal year” (fiscal years for the federal government run from October 1 through September 30 of the next year)minus the total dollars actually spent by all federal agencies or entities in that year. These agencies or entities may have some dollars left over that they are authorized to spend but have not yet “outlayed” i.e. – either they have written a check but the recipient has not yet cashed it, or they haven’t yet written the check for one reason or another, and these “carryover balances” are available to be “outlayed” in the future and will factor in to the deficit/surplus calculation in the year they do get actually spent, or “outlayed”.
The point is that the deficit (or surplus, in those rare years when it occurs) is not based on estimates or budget plans, but on actual dollars in the bank vs. dollars spent. If we collectively (the U.S. government, that is) spent more than we took in through taxes, user fees, royalties, or any other receipts, then we have a budget deficit for that year.
“Name” correctly fingers the bigger issue that strangely is rarely noted in the media – the cumulative debt this adds up to and the annual increasing burden this places on the budget through paying interest on the debt.
It would interesting and useful to have a separate thread sometime on different people’s strategies or ideas for preparing for the economic upheavals ahead, along the lines Juannie suggested.

Posted by: maxcrat | Feb 9 2005 1:01 utc | 25

Here in Australia we are “sailing” great…that’s what they (statistics?) are telling us every single night on TV. Unemployment rate is low (around 5%), consumer confidence is high…No wonder government is very popular here.
I don’t know why then I don’t feel very secure nowadays. I don’t know why I don’t believe statistics.
I think it is because same as in USA it’s so obvious that people are so in huge debts and this wonderful standard of living we have doesn’t look very realistic. They made us borrow to the extend where if anything (interest rates) change significantly we are all going to go in to the bankruptcy. Interest rates are on their way up and they keep telling us that we should stop borrowing but it kind of is not possible any more. To maintain this standard we achieved we actually need to borrow more and more. It will eventually stop but probably not until we are done. Yesterday on TV they explained how lot of people actually had borrowed 100% of their “equity” in their real estate and as this real estate bubble burst they’ll find them selves in a debt greater then their houses are worth. Well it’s not going to be pretty picture. So real estate will not be (at least for some time) thing to go for to secure your money.
At the moment market here is going strong. People were advised to invest in shares last year and yes that was a good choice. But …having in mind how Australian market is closely dependant of USA market situation it probably will not last for ever. USA market is definitely not stable considering how those lunatics of yours in power are creating mess.
Like in USA, having conservatives in power here in Australia, first to pay a bill will be poor. They have been told so prior to election and people elected this government again so the only explanation for me would be that either most of the people are not “poor” here or for some reason most of the people don’t see them selves as such (American story where God knows why average people believe that they’ll soon get rich).
Now who is rich and who is poor?
Government very clearly said prior to election that they’ll give significant tax cuts to those who earn more then $70000 (not combined income).
Now I know very few people who earn that kind of money. On the other hand living in this great area where a lot of really rich people like to live or at least have their mansions and yachts and spend some time, it is visible that their numbers are not insignificant.
This is my first time to live in “west” civilization and really it’s hard for me to predict anything but I have heard nightmarish stories. When I asked a New Zealand friend (and my ex manager) how was it in 1987 ( so not long ago) when they had market crash she told me: “Everybody you meet had lost his job…and subsequently his house. We couldn’t walk downtown at CBD being scared that some of the suicides who jumped from those high buildings will fall on us”…I wonder if she was only joking…

Posted by: vbo | Feb 9 2005 3:05 utc | 26

Todays NYT says there is a little bit missing in the budget forcast New White House Estimate Lifts Drug Benefit Cost to $720 Billion

The Bush administration offered a new estimate of the cost of the Medicare drug benefit on Tuesday, saying it would cost $720 billion in the next 10 years.
That is much more than the $400 billion Congress assumed when it passed legislation creating the benefit in late 2003.
But administration officials said the numbers were not comparable. The original estimate was for the years 2004 to 2013. The new estimate covers the period from 2006, when the drug benefit becomes available, to 2015.
The higher figure, which provides the first glimpse of the true cost of the drug benefit, could touch off a political uproar in Congress, where conservative Republicans were already expressing alarm about the costs of Medicare, including the drug benefit.

Bush will be lamed-ducked for this by the regual Repubs. Good!

Posted by: b | Feb 9 2005 8:24 utc | 27

It’s easy to see how ordinary people think they’re going to be rich: they simply look at their cashflow and discover they have thousands of dollars of discretionary income to invest and get rich with.
Of course, that’s before they budget for house payments or food, but since ignoring line items you’re committed to spending is now accepted practice, that’s just dandy.

Posted by: Colman | Feb 9 2005 10:32 utc | 28

I used to work with a guy who was a kind of survivalist. This was during the cold war and he expected the balloon to go up at any time. He had gold and silver and several different currencies as well as food and an escape map. I always looked at him as being just a bit wacko but looking at this thread it would seem that he was more of a prophet instead.
We are starting to sound like Montana militiamen here….

Posted by: dan of steele | Feb 9 2005 10:34 utc | 29

The reason we haven’t had a second great depression is the social security blankets put in place after the 30’s. So long as that stuff’s all there, there won’t be a second one, so no worries, eh?

Posted by: Colman | Feb 9 2005 11:05 utc | 30