Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
February 5, 2005
Russia Gives Up On Dollar

LondonYank has been running the Dollar Dump series (more links within that last diary) about Central Banks giving up on the dollar, and today we have news of one more:

Russia is ending its de facto dollar peg and moves to align rouble with euro

Russia said yesterday it had abandoned efforts to tie the rouble’s movement closely to the dollar and switched to shadowing both the euro and the US currency.

The move heightened expectations that other countries operating de facto dollar pegs, such as China, could follow suit.

With 81 per cent of Russia’s oil exports currently sold to Europe, the move also provoked fresh speculation that Russia could decide to denominate its oil in euros. Russia is the world’s second-largest oil exporter, behind Saudi Arabia.

If it becomes common wisdom that the dollar can only go down (as it seems is happening now), the temptation to be the first out and limit your losses becomes irresistible; this then becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy (big dollar holders selling means a weakening of the dollar, thus encouraging others to do the same; this can easily turn into a run on the currency).

Alan Greespan still holds some influence on the markets and is now using his credit to fight this trend (he managed to push the dollar up 2 cents with upbeat comments on the twin deficits and the dollar) but this will be an uphill struggle if Central Banks and portfolio managers start reallocating oh-so-slowly but irreversibly their holdings towards less dollars and more euros.

As I’ve written two months ago in this diary, the fundamental problem of the US economy is that it is consuming more than it produces – it thus requires foreign goods and/or foreign savings to quench the insatiable demand for more goods, more stuff, more, more, more… This has been going on for so long that it seems “natural”, but it is now reaching the limits of the trust that the rest of the world has in the word of the US government – especially when that government has been so busy bombing, blaming or bullying everybody else on the planet and has thus significantly drained the credit of the US around the world…

Get ready for the dollar crash is all I can say.

Comments

Sorry for the recent erratic posting… between London, the hospital and trying to do the press reviews for the newswrap and eurokos
anyway, this is Kos-posted

Posted by: Jérôme | Feb 5 2005 21:29 utc | 1

Jérôme, how does it fare with your little boy?

Posted by: alabama | Feb 5 2005 21:36 utc | 2

The hospital? what’s up?
And in the meantime, chimpy is on his world tour to promote his destruction of social security, while his girlfriend says we’re not planning on bombing Iran just yet.
It’s all bad.

Posted by: fourlegsgood | Feb 5 2005 21:58 utc | 3

At New Years, the main TV station in Russia, I have forgotten its alphabet soup name, features a shower of money fluttering down from above – the skies, or the more prosaically the balcony where the poorly paid tossers do their bit.
Midnight! Whooo! A page is turned, hope of luck, love, prosperity can be held.
This year, for the first time ever, they used Euros instead of Dollaris.

Posted by: Blackie | Feb 5 2005 22:09 utc | 4

A question about the U.S. current account deficit, and Greenspan’s recent comments in London. Greenspan and some others argue that European and others running an export surplus with the U.S. will have to start raising prices, thus decreasing their sales to the U.S. and increasing U.S. exports. My question is…increasing U.S. exports of what, exactly? What does the U.S. make anymore that we can sell a whole lot more of to the world, even at cheaper prices?

Posted by: maxcrat | Feb 5 2005 22:13 utc | 5

Boy, oh boy! Nobody can say we haven’t been warned… looming signs on the horizon and all that. Anyone have any predictions about when the petro-currency will become the Euro?
I have a global economic understanding the size of my little fingernail, but even I see the boldface type on the ever-closer and closer walls.
That refrigerator box under a freeway overpass is looking more and more like a reality. 🙁

Posted by: Kate_Storm | Feb 5 2005 22:37 utc | 6

@alabama, 4LG, please go to LS for further discussion of that topic.
@maxcrat – the problem, as I wrote (go see the links above), is not what the Us produces – it’s perfectly fine and competitive, it’s just that you consume more than you produce, by running up debt – in essence other countries are willing to give you their products for free because they trust the US to pay back eventually.
Up to now, this deal has held up amazingly well – Americans get to live beyond their means, Asians get lifted out of poverty because holding US IOUs allows them to invest (and get others to invest) in their economies) and Europeans tug along. Except that now, it’s getting more and more obvious that the first leg of the scheme, the ability of Americans to pay back their debts, is becoming less and less credible. A devaluation of the dollar effectively means a partial write off of the debt owed by America to the rest of the world, and this cannot make the rest of the world happy.
The only way out is – consume less. Either you do it on your own to preserve your credit, or creditors will force it upon you (in this case, by raising interest rates significantly). The only thing that protects America is that Asia will suffer as well from the cure, so they are not too keen to start it, but it now seems inevitable that it WILL happen.

Posted by: Jérôme | Feb 5 2005 22:47 utc | 7

I’m trying to sort some of this out, but seems to me the standard explanation is lower dollar=expanded domestic manufacture=higher wage rates. As maxcrat points oput: what do we make? Junk aplenty: cars, crops, etc. Still, I would like to know more about effects of declining dollar on wage rates. I’m skeptical this would benefit workers. Also, declining dollar effects on housing bubble, etc. What happens?

Posted by: slothrop | Feb 5 2005 22:51 utc | 8

Just food for thought:
Currencies: Morgan Stanley: USD: Are Central Banks Really Diversifying?

Scant evidence of diversification.
As the USD has extended its three-year decline, there has been a host of rumours of central banks raising their exposure to EURs at the expense of USD holdings. This strong consensus of central bank diversification does not appear to be supported by existing data. In our view, once the BIS and IMF finally release their annual reports, the market will likely be surprised by the relatively small diversification into EUR assets in 2004.

These processes take longer than one usally thinks – as might the current countertrend of the dollar which is increasing in value since the beginning of this year.
I do hope that the Euro will never become the commodity/reserve currency. There is a need for such a currency that has no political agenda and the Euro as a reserve currency would ruin Europe. A trade balanced basket of world currencies would be fine, as would be a new kind of Gold standard (which worked for thousand of years).
The Euro taking over from the US$ is possible but unlikely. World currencies usually hold about 100 years and the US$ did start its role after the first world war. By 2018 the Yuan/Renminbi may be already able to carry that task.

Posted by: b | Feb 5 2005 22:55 utc | 9

the surreal thing about the dollar is that it is even recovering against the euro, even if only slightly. the obviously divorced from reality statistics which various US govt agencies have been putting out recently somehow dont seem to influence the ‘value’ of the dollar against other currencies in a perceptible way. probably it is this what has triggered the russian – and before that the chinese – commentary of lost confidence.
it will be an interesting year.

Posted by: name | Feb 5 2005 23:22 utc | 10

Interesting theory B, about world currency holding for 100 years. Never heard that one before but then I miss a lot of things.
Question is, how is that 100 year standard set and how long has it been a standard. 200 years? 400? Point is, rules like that are made to be broken, especially now, when many rules of civilization are ignored by our -leaders-.
I think these leaders are driving us into a depression – intentionally. Why they are doing this is the question I want answered. Sorry I can’t accept your assurance that the dollar will remain the world currency. At least not without more evidence.

Posted by: rapt | Feb 5 2005 23:39 utc | 11

Having being a visitor to Russia over the past three years, yes, the Euro is preferred currency.
I plan to visit Odessa in June and the Ukranian website that I booked all my travel stuff is in Euros.
Jerome, when you say the dollar will crash…………, will sterling follow?

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Feb 5 2005 23:49 utc | 12

Just an afterthought regarding the “debt write-off” proposed by Gordon Brown to G7 today. As these debts are dollar denominated, why bother?

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Feb 5 2005 23:52 utc | 13

Obviously the dollar is being “propped up”, but *how*? By borrowing from Social Security funds?

Posted by: pb | Feb 5 2005 23:59 utc | 14

CP(1) – Sterling depends on the referendum on the European constitution, probably
CP(2) – are the debts actually dollar-denominated, or just dollar-accounted? Not sure… I’d expect a lot of African debt ot be in European currencies, thus now in euros… cute point anyway (although definitely not PC!)
b – I don’t see the renminbi taking over in the foreseeable future. A reserve currency requires trust in the underlying institutions. China does not have that. Europe does, like Switzerland does, but on a larger scale (rule of law, liquid markets, and, which the US does not have anymore, balanced external accounts). Not commenting on whether it is a good thing or not, but it is certainly more likely than the Chinese option.

Posted by: Jérôme | Feb 6 2005 0:03 utc | 15

(CP1)
Well, we all know the answer to that question.
(CP2)
I am 100% sure it is dollar denominated. WB/IMF etc.
(CP3) New
6 Nations started today. France look crap. Laporte to be fired within 24 hours?

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Feb 6 2005 0:25 utc | 16

I do not pretend to know much about it (all tho I studied economy at some point in my life) but my guts are telling me that it’s not only that “social” (economy) laws are working automatically as nature laws do but there is a lot of intention in it. What I mean is that there are people who generally own (or want to own) most of the stuff on this planet (in one country) and they are once to intentionally make things happen in the economy field. No accidents.
In my eyes depression works very well for them too (no lose situation for them) to the extend where while in those times they can not make money through other businesses (except that they’ll grab from what ever necessity we need to buy and very expensive) they certainly can buy very cheep important things like land, real estate and other long term values.
What seems obvious now to me especially having lived trough abnormal inflation in early 90-ies and especially 1993 in Serbia, made intentionally by Milosevic is that in great depressions some people tend to get bloody abnormally rich in a very short period (emphasis here) of time. It happened before everywhere where depression strikes.
I may be naive in my view but it’s so obvious that while most of the people lose “everything” during depression few people definitely gain “everything” at the same time.
I do not know why we expect our leaders to be responsible when we all know that people engaged in high politic are most corrupt and immoral people. How else would they come to that position anyway? They tend to destroy all the institutions that may control them.
I have lost my illusions during my 50 years long life…sorry guys…

Posted by: vbo | Feb 6 2005 0:48 utc | 17

vbo: I do not know why we expect our leaders to be responsible when we all know that people engaged in high politic are most corrupt and immoral people. How else would they come to that position anyway?
This often gets overlooked in analysis and discussion, but I’ve been hammering on it for years. There is no way that people attain the seats of power without selling out. No way. Not in the “west”. Integrity? Who are we kidding? Or,… who are “they” kidding?

Posted by: Kate_Storm | Feb 6 2005 1:40 utc | 18

just a quote from movie dialog to back up vbo’s point about the usefulness of a depression for the ruling class – in “it’s a wonderful life” mr. potter says to george bailey something like – “in the depression you saved the building and loan, and i saved everything else”

Posted by: mistah charley | Feb 6 2005 2:49 utc | 19

and just how, exactly, does one prepare for the crash of the dollar?
…should we all be studying Argentina?

Posted by: fauxreal | Feb 6 2005 3:03 utc | 20

Bushie and the boys have mis-managed the US economy the worst of any admin in my lifetime. As vbo above has said, if the US goes into a depression, the fat cats can suck up all the assets for penneys on the dollar.
The dollar devaluation, I’m sure was planed and was agreed upon by all the central banks. If Japan pulls out of the US bond market, they get paid in cheaper dollars. But since the Chinese have valued the renmimba to the dollar, their goods have actually become cheaper. In order to save any type of US manufacturing, what is left of it, the renmimba must be delinked and allowed to be valued in a basket of currencies. This would also allow the US to pay back China in cheaper dollars. The Chinese must be forced to re-value for: 1. To save whats left of US manufacturing; 2. Stop US comsumption by making their goods more expensive; and 3. Not let a country like China have to much leverage on the US economy.
This can be done by leveraging the US economies power. Even if the US reduces consumption by 10% over the long run, it will likely remain the worlds largest economy. China is in a bubble right now and that baby has to burst sooner or later.

Posted by: jdp | Feb 6 2005 3:10 utc | 21

I tend to agree that the international ultra-rich can afford to crash any national economy, as their investments are diverse and they play the international currency markets, moving their wealth around at electronic speeds. After the IMF/WB gang has officially declared a national economy “sick” and starts enforcing their “austerity” programs, generally the national currency collapses, devaluing all the assets in that country (Argentina, FSU, etc) — after which the internationals can snap up the assets at pennies on the buck, and most of the country’s infrastructure ends up in foreign ownership. There is no reason this couldn’t happen to the US, in its present very weak position: one could imagine a scenario where most US assets end up owned by Chinese or Euro investors.
But those same investors, the biggest ones, as I understand it are so internationalised now that they could equally well afford to crash the EU economy — after skating their wealth around over the wires to get it out of the way — and then pull the same trick there, buying up all of Euroland at bargain basement prices. We’ve got to a point — or so it seems to me — where wealth has been fully globalised but poverty is nationalised, where the movement of wealth across borders is rapid and unchecked but the movement of people across borders is highly restricted and expensive. Finance capital has become like a guerrilla force — mobile, nimble, and flexible, able to pull off lightning raids and ambushes, attacking and retreating like fast-moving predators about a bogged-down, lumbering behemoth (the nation-state).
Until we start taxing capital mobility, until we have some kind of international RICO laws and the like, I don’t see a way to stop the raiding and looting, or the terrible human costs of this privateering lifestyle. Like Kate I don’t really understand the rules of this complex game, but I’ve seen the damage left in its wake.

Posted by: DeAnander | Feb 6 2005 3:48 utc | 22

I did some research at the office the other day. I pulled up the population pyramids for the years 2000, 2025 and 2050. Bushie and his admin is lying through his teeth about SS. In 2025, if you add up the working age person 20-70, I use 70 because retirement age is going up, you will still have a possible five workers for every SS retiree. In 2050 is when the problem starts and thats because of more people will live past 85. In 2050 its estimated there will be 21 million persons 85 and over compared to 4 million in 2000. In 2050 there could be a posible 3.68 workers for every retiree. This takes everyone of working age into account.
The age categories are five year categories and every 25 years each category increases by millions. The lack of worker problem is bullshit until well after I’m dead.
An interesting radio program on SS on Feb 3 on the Tony Tripiano show.
It was in the last hour, a fellow named David Barret, a former vice president at Citibank. You can listen to all three hours or forward to the last hour and listen at: http://www.whiterosesociety.org. His take is that Bushie wants to default on the SS trust fund.

Posted by: jdp | Feb 6 2005 4:34 utc | 23

Yeah, Mistah Charley… just a quote from movie dialog to back up vbo’s point about the usefulness of a depression for the ruling class – in “it’s a wonderful life” mr. potter says to george bailey something like – “in the depression you saved the building and loan, and i saved everything else”
My kind of citation… 😉

Posted by: Kate_Storm | Feb 6 2005 4:47 utc | 24

US supports switch by Russia from Dollar to Euro – or how else can you interpret Rice comments on Russian democracy?
Rice issues tough warning to Russia over reforms Moscow’s commitment to democracy is called into question as the US Secretary of State tours Europe

America fired a shot across the bows of its former foe yesterday as Condoleezza Rice warned Russia it must renew its commitment to democracy and said she had concerns over the direction of the former Soviet Union.
In a sign that Washington’s stance towards Moscow is toughening, the new US Secretary of State told a news conference in Warsaw: ‘It is important Russia make clear to the world that it is intent on strengthening the rule of law, strengthening the role of an independent judiciary, permitting a free and independent press. These are all the basics of democracy.’

Posted by: Fran | Feb 6 2005 5:34 utc | 25

@DeA – you are right that global capital is a lot more mobile than other factors of production and there is a tendency towards dumping all social costs locally, i.e. on immobile labor. However, I think you got it backwards with the “crises” Global capital can “pounce” on a weakened country but not create a crisis if the coutnry’s finances are sound.
Most of the crises in recent years are worsened by withdrawal of international capital, but they are started by domestic causes (in Argentina, it was the lack of control by the central government of local spending that created unsustainable unbalances – local entities could get away with spending locally and passing the bill to the country as a whole.
simple rule – if you don’t want to depend on international capital, don’t borrow – or at least don’t borrow too much. If you spend other people’s money, don’t expect them not to worry about how you will pay them back. If the complaint is that these are corrupt regimes who misuse the funds, what do you propose to do? Re-colonise so that they don’t misspend, because we know better?
i am not sure what the solution is, but i can tell you that all international financial crises had real domestic causes. Some countries (like the US) get a lot more leeway, but that does not change the rule that if your finances are sound, you will not be in a crisis.

Posted by: Jérôme | Feb 6 2005 8:40 utc | 26

My question is…increasing U.S. exports of what, exactly?
we make a lot of weapons..as for grain, it’s not needed too much anymore.

Posted by: bigbay | Feb 6 2005 9:14 utc | 27

Quote:
In a sign that Washington’s stance towards Moscow is toughening, the new US Secretary of State told a news conference in Warsaw: ‘It is important Russia make clear to the world that it is intent on strengthening the rule of law, strengthening the role of an independent judiciary, permitting a free and independent press. These are all the basics of democracy.’
***
Look who is talking…
Quote:
My question is…increasing U.S. exports of what, exactly?
we make a lot of weapons..
***
That must be the reason why USA creates so many crises around the world…as we don’t have enough of it anyway…

Posted by: vbo | Feb 6 2005 14:49 utc | 28

Yap, I am always struck when I see fully with modern weapons equipped fighters in some bloody poor, by God forgotten country, where people hardly have enough clothes on them let alone enough food to eat…
I can’t help asking who the hell is paying for those weapons ?

Posted by: vbo | Feb 6 2005 15:01 utc | 29

A leftist perspective on the dollar crisis and us. I’ve tried to omit a lot of detail to focus on the main theme but it is all worth a read.
Incredible as it may sound, ever since the late 1950’s, the world economy has been tossing around a “hot potato” of an ever-increasing mass of “nomad dollars” (dollars held outside the U.S.) whose actual conversion into tangible wealth would plunge the world into a deflationary crash….. We are clearly today at another key turning point, and perhaps…..at the long-delayed culmination of the whole story, when that mass of dollars, now grown to gargantuan proportions …..will be deflated, one way or another.
(snip)
A capitalist crisis like the current one resembles a poker game where the table is swept clean and all cards and chips must be redistributed for the game to continue at all. This could happen as an “orderly bankruptcy proceeding” but it will most likely happen…..chaotically, through economic blowout, class confrontation, and war….. What somehow has to happen, from a capitalist point of view, is a serious devaluation of the approximately $11 trillion dollars currently held by foreigners, and a simultaneous adjustment of major currencies to reflect new world economic realities….. This will entail, among other things, a collapse of the huge mortgage bubble and the subsequent bankruptcy of untold millions of families and individuals. The U.S. must figure out a way to balance imports and exports, which…..will above all entail a vast reduction of imports, and hence stringent austerity for American working people.
(snip)
The basic problem of every major crisis in capitalism’s history has been…..that of destroying or deflating a “bubble” of fictitious or speculative claims on wealth (stocks, bonds, property titles) and bringing those claims back into rough correspondence with the “real” rate of profit available in production…..and from “free inputs” available elsewhere (such as the looting of peasant labor and nature).,…..
(snip)
…..The simple fact of the matter is that neither we, nor the vast majority of American working people, are prepared for the depths of the catastrophe now unfolding. The levels of austerity the capitalists will demand have been unknown since the 1930’s…..
Obscure as the above economic dynamic is…..it will be even more obscured by the clear capitalist determination to avoid a “purely economic crisis”, much as Adolf Hitler chose to go to war in 1938 when his Finance Minister, Schacht, told him that the German debt pyramid and war production was on the verge of complete bankruptcy. The…..U.S. strategy….. aims at preventing any serious challenge (economic and military) from coalescing on the Eurasian land mass. Europe, Russia, China, Japan and India must all be kept at loggerheads and on the defensive, and hence incapable of challenging the increasingly obvious bankruptcy of the U.S. dominated system…..The American capitalists understand that their decline requires keeping not only all potential rivals but American working people themselves, permanently off balance. Everything will be done to make the consequences of decades of American decline appear instead as the work of terrorists, or China, or (as in the unbelievable French-bashing in the run-up to the Iraq war) even of Europe.
No less a figure than Warren Buffett has been saying for years that America’s vast, highly paid army of “financial engineers”, media CEOs, lawyers, HMO bureaucrats and myriad others populating the “FIRE” economy is collectively “kicking society in the shins”. There is no lack of “disconnect” between ordinary working people and the spectacle of business-as-usual politics and the media promoting them; our problem is rather to relocate the populist (of the right or of the left) impulse articulated by Buffett, or Nader, or Buchanan, or Tom Frank away from the widely despised “elites” to a truly radical, Marxist analysis of the dynamic of a global system of social relations.

Posted by: lonesomeG | Feb 6 2005 15:04 utc | 30

rapt wrote: I think these leaders are driving us into a depression – intentionally. Why they are doing this is the question I want answered.
vbo gave one answer, another is : WAR.
Remember, no draft?
———-
Fran, Rice hates Russia. She also hates France.
This links up to what lonesome G quoted: The American capitalists understand that their decline requires keeping not only all potential rivals but American working people themselves, permanently off balance. Everything will be done to make the consequences of decades of American decline appear instead as the work of terrorists, or China, or (as in the unbelievable French-bashing in the run-up to the Iraq war) even of Europe.

Posted by: Blackie | Feb 6 2005 18:21 utc | 31

OT
Venezuela has ordered the three-day closing of all 80 McDonald’s restaurants in the country as a penalty for failing to follow tax rules.
Tax officials found inconsistencies between the company’s purchases and sales records, the state-run Bolivarian News Agency has reported.
The closing apparently was to last through the weekend. McDonald’s employees were seen standing about and sweeping outside one closed restaurant in Caracas.
President Hugo Chavez has taken a tough approach toward tax evasion and book-keeping irregularities in recent years. The tax agency has fined and closed a number of domestic and foreign companies for failing to follow strict tax guidelines.

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Feb 6 2005 19:15 utc | 32

Oh, cher Jerome, your faith that only spendthrifts and fools get in financial trouble seems too naif. Surely you are aware of the role of the US military and intelligence apparat in blackmailing or tricking poorer countries into taking out large loans which they cannot afford to repay? Loan sharking is something which happens not only at the small town or neighbourhood level, it happens internationally. Surely you remember Nixon instructing Helms to “make the economy scream,” i.e. to wage unrelenting economic war on Chile to punish its government for disobedience to the American agenda? How long can a small country hold out against the combined military and economic power of the US — unless it’s, say, Cuba, with an authoritarian father-figure government to force/inspire people to accept the price of resistance?
Surely, often it was a corrupt elite who signed the Faustian pacts with US banks and corporations — the common people never even knew about these deals, let alone got to vote on them. Yet the commoners are stuck with paying the usurious interest, decade after decade — and enduring the squalor, poverty, hunger that so-called “austerity measures” (i.e. foreclosure) inflict on them and their kids. Is it all their fault for having corrupt governments? Often their governments were strongman dictatorships or military juntas. And often when they tried to install popularly-elected governments by democratic process, the US coolly assassinated their candidates (before or after elections) or armed and funded rightwing extralegal militias to conduct campaigns of terror, intimidating the populist parties out of existence. It is really hard to maintain an honest, balanced household budget when the Mafia guys keep leaning on you to do business — at ruinous rates — with their buddies, and funding and backing your own local Mafia into the bargain.
Much force and much fraud was involved in the establishment of these massive debts; they pass neither the libertarian litmus test nor the most basic decent standards of humane behaviour — let alone the more rigorous scrutiny of a social-justice, Christian, or Marxist critic.

Posted by: DeAnander | Feb 6 2005 20:01 utc | 33

Adolf Hitler chose to go to war in 1938 when his Finance Minister, Schacht, told him that the German debt pyramid and war production was on the verge of complete bankruptcy
I very much doubt this implied causality.

Posted by: MarcinGomulka | Feb 6 2005 21:05 utc | 34

Cheer up blokes ‘n blokettes. I just found the high water mark of nazi Kulture and it’s sure not gonna get the US workers out stompin on others as the $ goes down the tubes.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Feb 6 2005 21:31 utc | 35

I’m with Marcin. At face, value, it smells of revisionist history, like Hitler wasn’t so much a bad guy, and you know, he just had to kill off Jews because they weren’t helping the war effort and were unncessary mouths to feed.
Hitler wanted war before he even was chancellor, and was bent on world domination. This, as far as I’m concerned, can’t be doubted.
That said, I would admit that the timing of the war may have been partly forced by economic reasons. Had the German economy and available resources been better, he may have wanted to wait one or two years more before moving too openly, notably against Poland, because even in 1939 the German army was still a recovering army under build-up; waiting until late 1940 wouldn’t have hurt – he would have had far more panzers and fighters to send against Warsaw, Paris, London and Moscow, he may even have begun building a real Navy. But war against France, Poland, USSR, and other nations if possible, was clearly his intent since the beginning.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Feb 6 2005 21:43 utc | 36

that is some weird shit Debs. The wingnuts in the States would kind of grin and say “that is a little bit extreme” and then in the next breath call Ward Churchill a traitor and threaten to kill him.
this is getting really strange.

Posted by: dan of steele | Feb 6 2005 21:57 utc | 37

What an excellent discussion! I will join in when I have the time, but for now must entertain 90 yr old Ma and other domestic tasks.
Later all you articulate Moon Pies.

Posted by: rapt | Feb 6 2005 22:49 utc | 38

No doubt Hitler was a bad guy. They always need bad guy when ever they have to do nasty things…Look at the USA (especially)today. And we all know who THEY are. Huge and unscrupulous capitalists.
How the hell else bad and in any other field incompetent guys get to the top if THEY do not “employ” them.
Wars are ALWAYS about economy and bad guy-good guy American story does not apply.
De A I am totally with you.

Posted by: vbo | Feb 6 2005 23:02 utc | 39

I fail to find my source, but somewhere I saw that in the 19th-century it wasn´t uncommon for South American governments to simply declare “we will not be paying any rent or mortgages on our loans for a while, because we don´t have the money”. To reenter the loan market they needed to pay back their old loans of course, but otherwise not much happened to their economies. You don´t see that happening much today.

Posted by: A swedish kind of death | Feb 7 2005 0:48 utc | 40

A long time since I’ve checked out this site, but as always I’m glad I did. Thanks for the heads up on economic changes. I’ve been prepared for this coming Depression in US for some years (has been predicted since late ’80s) but as a child of two who went through the US 1930’s Depression (one lost family farm, other was unemployed and vagrant for 6 years) I sort of look forward to it. People I was told took care of one another, the working people anyway, in ways I have rarely seen in my lifetime. I welcome a possible shift in ethos from the me-myself-and-I competition … and don’t believe Marxism will provide future answers although I agree its analysis remains the only one to call a spade a spade about the ruling classes. For many reasons, including we’re no longer in a primarily industrial economy, and of course they will use the “terrorists” to divert attention from real culprits …

Posted by: francoise | Feb 7 2005 1:31 utc | 41

This discussion is reminding me of a PBS Frontline program about currency crises traveling around the globe in the early 90’s [Russia, Argentia, SE Asian nations etc] and three US officials, ostensibly damage-controlling the crisis… Rubin was one of the three. Anybody recall it?

Posted by: gylangirl | Feb 7 2005 1:41 utc | 42

Adolf Hitler chose to go to war in 1938 when his Finance Minister, Schacht, told him that the German debt pyramid and war production was on the verge of complete bankruptcy
The way I hear it, Hitler chose to go to war in the face of bankruptcy not because that convinced him, but because he could use the fear of imminient bankruptcy to convince powerful people to support such a bad idea. That’s the sort of reasoning (not mere causality) I hear here. And its what we have to fear.

Posted by: Citizen | Feb 7 2005 5:06 utc | 43

Dear Free-Market Thinker,
The Last Laugh…?
One of the hottest topics today in the networking world is that of IPv6. The newest version of the Internet Protocol which has been in development over the last ten years or so, and will replace IPv4 as the standard addressing scheme for all internet enabled devices. IPv6 is designed primarily to address the issue of the scarce IP address space that plagues IPv4. But what most don’t know because “they” would you rather not know;what this really means is that the US government is letting IPv4 die out from purpose neglect and with it any and all freedom we have on the internet. The new IPv6 is scheduled to completely take over the internet with in the next several years. Further, what that means is the internet will be under the complete control of the elite and corporations. Finally, the DOD has already moved to IPv6. We all laughed at the military when it released this technology, now they will have the last laugh… Welcome to the: Christian Military Prison Pharma Industrial Complex(TM) Brought to you by Archer Daniels Midland Company(TM) (Trust us we own your food so you don’t have to)
-Uncle $cam

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Feb 7 2005 5:26 utc | 44

I have no experience of any previous depressions or financial crises until Milosevic forced us to unspeakable one that I couldn’t believe was happening and specially severity of it was hard to endure.
Post WWII (while I was growing) we used to live in “non market” economy, centralized and controlled by socialists government and while we didn’t have much of the stuff westerners had we lived in pretty stable economy. There were not worries for anyone to lose a job (all tho there were some to get one). Once you get it you practically can’t lose it for life. Our currency or prices was not dependent on any other currency and we even could exchange it for any other currency in our and in European banks. All tho our salaries were just a let’s say 1/3 of European same job salary. We young people didn’t like it of course cause we had to travel to Italy to buy jeans for example and we felt we are behind. We had to listen to radio Luxemburg and receive records from our relatives in Europe in my early teens to be able to hear English music etc. I remember my first foreign record came from my aunty who used to live in France at that time. It was Beatles – “Michele” In 70-ies we had opened a bit but not too much economically.
Well I can write a book about it but to make long story short we somehow felt secure in that situation. Later in 80-ies after Tito died and we were actually forced to join “market” in a sense, we were so happy to finally find all the stuff others could buy just around the corner in our shops too. But most of the older people knew that there is price to be paid for this convenience. That’s why mostly oldies joined Milosevic who was pretending that he is going to save us from cruel market. Of course while “saving” us from privatization and massive unemployment ( this is happening right now in Serbia) he was at the same time robbing us of our savings and our salaries that in second part of 1993 fell to equivalence 10 DM per month. He couldn’t do it that easy if there was not war situation right next door. Some people (mostly oldies) used to believe that this is happening because we need to sacrifice for our Serbian brothers in Bosnia and Croatia who are fighting for their freedom to join us.
In those hard times (especially 1993) yes I remember that some people were sympathetic and helpful for each other but those are people who would be like that anyway in any situation. Public transport wasn’t working practically , supermarkets and other stores were virtually empty, no petrol on petrol stations so we had to buy petrol on a black market (in 1,5 l Coca Cola bottles).Many people just stopped driving cars and walked a long distances to work or hitchhiked. Some didn’t even receive any money but instead of their salaries they gave them a products that factory for example was making so that only in case if they sell them will put their hands on some cash. Previously very attractive financial pyramids (so called private banks that gave us 10% interest monthly) crashed one after another taking people’s last cents and hope. There is no end to describing this situation…literally hungry children waiting in a bakery for someone to buy them anything to eat, engineers and other intellectuals stilling vegetables on a green market or selling on a green market what ever they managed to bring from neighboring countries, ashamed pensioners going through their neighbors garbage during night , queues everywhere for milk, bread… hospitals without basic stuff like cotton and bandages let alone that one had to bring practically everything in to the hospital for an operation (needles for sawing injures included and of course food and medicine)…police and judiciary system totally worthless so people had to go to mafia to sort their legal problems…I can’t go on…
I wasn’t feeling especially sympathetic at the time. I felt angry…mad exactly…
Hah at the same time it was so bloody visible that some people are getting bloody rich, cause we were able to see their castles and their brand new 4WD and all those private clubs and places where they were partying madly…while we were running around to buy some DM for our worthless billions of dinars and rate would change in literally half of an hour.
No I really wouldn’t want to experience anything like that again …please God.
“ They kill horses don’t they? ” comes to mind…

Posted by: vbo | Feb 7 2005 6:24 utc | 45

vbo,
Thanks for that, and good to see you back. I think its important to hear real life stories, and in this case youre probably the only one to have actually experienced that kind of economic collapse — and hope to hear more about your visit to Serbia.

Posted by: anna missed | Feb 7 2005 7:46 utc | 46

vbo
thanks for sharing that. I observed some of what you experienced over a period of about 30 years from Italy. I used to travel to Slovenia to eat cheap meals and really had a kind of fondness for the people. Good people and very educated. We were once invited to a go-kart race in Celje and were treated nicely. We got put up in a hostel of some sort and were fed well. We raced and all had a very good time with our hosts. It was quite odd for me as an American to see that these horrible communists were actual people.
Then the inflation started and people became miserable. All the wars wiped out the brotherhood between the states that made up Yugoslavia. I had a team of masons from Macedonia build my house and they told me that they went to school with people from all the different countries and they all got along just famously. Now they would probably have to kill those same people. It was all really disappointing.
I remember that movie very well and thought about it just the other day. Indeed it does seem like the most humane thing to do…….

Posted by: dan of steele | Feb 7 2005 9:58 utc | 47

Thanks Anna. I’ll concentrate on the story of Serbia today one of these days. It’s just too hard to explain everything that’s going on there without going to great length for you people that are not really familiar with political and economic situation of that area (Balkan) in the past and nowadays.
But I will put my story on LS soon.

Posted by: vbo | Feb 7 2005 10:06 utc | 48

@Uncle $cam – IP version 4 vs. IP version 6
That article has more false information than correct one – pure fearmongering.
It points to the main difference between 4 and 6 to be the use of dynamic IP address assignments vs. static IP address assignment. Actually there is no difference from any police/secret service standpoint. Today they can find and do find any internet trouble maker just as easily through the provider, who has a log file saying when he assigned a “dynamic” address to whom.
There are some other features in vs. 6 that might be abused, but the assignment of static addresses is not a problem. That article is a problem.

Posted by: b | Feb 7 2005 11:41 utc | 49

Now b, he has a perfectly good conspiracy theory going. How dare you challenge it? It’s IPv6, and 6 is the number of the devil, so the Freemasons did it.
What happened ’round here while I was away? Conspiracy theories seem to be running rampant at the moment.

Posted by: Colman | Feb 7 2005 13:03 utc | 50

@b
It certainly was not my intention post “fearmongering” or conspiracy theory, if you don’t agree with the article that’s fine, but I posted it as a PSA as a concern I and many others have to the taboo of the quaint word “freedom”. Geez…

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Feb 7 2005 14:57 utc | 51

Ummmm…. when is an ad hominem not an ad hominem? Conspiracy theory… like the theory of evolution? 😉 Since the Feds have been wanting to get back control of the Internet for some years, I don’t find it at all conspiracy-minded to read what Uncle has offered. Whatzamatter, Colman. No coffee this morning? 😉

Posted by: Kate_Storm | Feb 7 2005 15:01 utc | 52

@Kate and Uncle $cam,
your fears are well grounded, However IP6 is not the bad guy. Routers are key to the net and who controls the routers controls the internet. The US government does control the routers at least in the US and others that don’t play nice find themselves outside.
I should not have to remind anyone that the internet was created for the military and kinda crept out through the universities to the rest of the world. Now that the genie is out of the bottle it might be hard to get it back in but that is not at all necessary, in fact it probably makes big brother’s job easier to monitor us through the use of cookies and the like.
Cellular phones are scarier than this, they can now pinpoint your location to within a hundred meters or so by triangulating your cellular phone transmissions, I am told they can do this even if it is turned off (not sure but don’t really doubt it)

Posted by: dan of steele | Feb 7 2005 15:52 utc | 53

Dan: Cell phones are increasingly used in criminal cases. If you’re a hitman, just don’t use them.
But yep, when you’re registered with your phone, carrying a cell phone is basically akin to having a micro-chip implant that would constantly give away your location and your whereabouts.
And people are still scared about credit cards, as if it was the epitome and Big Brother. They haven’t seen anything yet.
I’m expecting the development of chips that could be spotted and read by hundreds of yards; would be perfect for ID cards.
Attempts to really control the internet would be a good test of the hacker community, at least. I’ve always suspected they were just a bunch of wankers, all-talk no-act, and if a govt takeover of the internet occurs without the govt being shut-down by waves of hacking, it will just be the sad and ultimate proof of what I think – and fear – since a long time. Then, I was of the opinion they should have launched the equivalent of a nuclear attack on all US govt and all corporate sites when they went after Napster. It increasingly looks like they’re good Germans, like the others – they still benefit from the system and prefer to see it go its own dictatorial ways rather than trying to bring it down to defend freedom.

Posted by: CluelessJoe | Feb 7 2005 16:27 utc | 54

Colman
You asked about marxist literature….I’m no expert, but the first 90-page or so chapter on the commodity in vol. 1 of Capital is classic. The fetish of the commodities section there is valuable.
Economics: Harry Braverman Labor and Monopoly Capital, Ernest Mandel Late Capitalism, James O’Connor Fiscal Crisis of the State.

Posted by: slothrop | Feb 7 2005 17:17 utc | 55

Could the Dollar Bloc Become an RMB Bloc?
If the Renimbi revalues (not this year in my view) Korea and Taiwan will most likely follow the Renimbi, not the US$. The political implications are interesting.

Posted by: b | Feb 7 2005 17:35 utc | 56

In the ‘extreme’ category:
A US university in Wisconsin has blocked a fund-raising campaign by Republican students in support of the Adopt-a-Sniper group, founded to assist US sharp-shooters in Iraq and Afghanistan. The students at Marquette University in Milwaukee were selling bracelets bearing the motto 1 Shot – 1 Kill – No Remorse – I Decide.
News
US Snipers.org
FlashMovie
This looks minor and nutty – and in the school the students were prevented from selling the stuff.
Privately paying for snipers -adopting one! – who will kill Arabs and Muslims is asking Joe public to pay for mercenaries; the ultimate in outsourcing war; etc. – more could be said in that line. ‘Adopt’ is very clever, these people are well informed.
More seriously, It is a step towards the acceptance of murdering opponents stealthily with impunity. Any opponents.
Some Iraqis are terrorists. Those who don’t support killing terrorists are — terrorists too.

Posted by: Blackie | Feb 7 2005 18:11 utc | 57

No Kate, I had my coffee, though admittedly returning to work after a week away is guaranteed to make me cranky. I’ve just been catching up on threads and I’m dismayed by the tone of them. Too many conspiracies and generalisations. Apologies to Uncle $cam for singling his posting out: there are lots more.
IPv6 actually includes all sorts of security features that should make the lives of eavesdroppers and so on harder if implemented properly.

Posted by: Colman | Feb 7 2005 18:11 utc | 58

Thanks slothrop, I’ve copied it into the LS thread in order to keep the answers together: hope you don’t mind!

Posted by: Colman | Feb 7 2005 18:22 utc | 59

Blackie,
I think this link shows that even conservatives are starting to wake up, with all this extrem BS going on. I am glad that they are becoming scared, maybe they will wake up the others too.
Its from ‘The American Conservative’: Hunger for Dictatorship – War to export democracy may wreck our own.

But Rockwell (and Roberts and Raimondo) is correct in drawing attention to a mood among some conservatives that is at least latently fascist. Rockwell describes a populist Right website that originally rallied for the impeachment of Bill Clinton as “hate-filled … advocating nuclear holocaust and mass bloodshed for more than a year now.” One of the biggest right-wing talk-radio hosts regularly calls for the mass destruction of Arab cities. Letters that come to this magazine from the pro-war Right leave no doubt that their writers would welcome the jailing of dissidents. And of course it’s not just us. When USA Today founder Al Neuharth wrote a column suggesting that American troops be brought home sooner rather than later, he was blown away by letters comparing him to Tokyo Rose and demanding that he be tried as a traitor. That mood, Rockwell notes, dwarfs anything that existed during the Cold War. “It celebrates the shedding of blood, and exhibits a maniacal love of the state. The new ideology of the red-state bourgeoisie seems to actually believe that the US is God marching on earth—not just godlike, but really serving as a proxy for God himself.”

Posted by: Fran | Feb 7 2005 18:56 utc | 60

CJ – this already exists: RFID

Posted by: Jérôme | Feb 7 2005 21:22 utc | 61

Fran, I am not too hopeful…
Raimondo and his ilk have some following (I surmise.) The idea that Israel is conducting US foreign policy is highly popular, a kind of weird rationalisation; his libertarian bent, anti-Gvmt stance is appealing; he writes well, pushes open doors wider. Hating Bush helps.
Paleo-conservatives, old-stye Repubs, Libertarians, Isolationists, should sit up and Listen! I’m sure they do, up to a point.
But then what? Green or conventional Christians, anti-Zionist Jews, Core Left dregs, the Hedonist a-political Young, Dissident or Disappointed Democrats, not to mention the impoverished workers and others who struggle..and many more…probably can’t relate to this kind of discourse, for one reason or another.
These paleo-cons (whose accusations of Fascism aimed at BushCo are not new) seem to imagine that one can turn the clock back. The US could just hunker down behing its borders, ignore the ME, give Sharon the boot, (energy?) forget about the EU, (except for all that trade?), and the rest of the world (Venezuela?), crack down on Asia (how?), solve the immigration problem (no more cheap labor, then what?) and toss out the present leaders as loonies.
On this last point, they have something going for them. However, they have no alternatives to propose. The hard-headed pragmatists (Cheney, Rummy, etc. ) are in power, and they cannot usurp that position. It is impossible. Their own brand of pragmatism is outdated and looks weak in comparison.
After all, all these view-points existed just before the election, then what happened? Ka-boom, King Bush.
That is a rough reading, represents what it looks like to many (??)

Posted by: Blackie | Feb 7 2005 21:27 utc | 62

Clueless,
but filesharing was already moving away from Napster when it was shut down and onto Kazaa and other networks. Now when those are turned more or less useless by spread of phony files, Direct Connect and Bittorrent has grown. So Napster being shut down was hardly a casus belli for most hackers at the time.

Posted by: A swedish kind of death | Feb 7 2005 23:22 utc | 63

It was also not my intention to derail this most imformative thread, but what we are documenting on every comment is the complete, economic, social, and cultural take over of the United states of America, WHILE MOST EVERYONE THAT CAN STOP IT SITS AND DOES NOTHING. If hitler would have had the technology we have today we would could not have stopped him. Grep what I sed???

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Feb 8 2005 1:22 utc | 64

Who are these Everyones Uncle? I’d like to be one of them but I’m under house arrest, sitting and doing nothing.
I’m reminded of the movie Alcatraz, where the convict who is guilty of nothing confesses to his lawyer that he is “skeered.” He reluctantly returns to his cell to await a possible appeal. He dies of unknown cause soon thereafter.
This is serious shit folks. Sitting on your ass and complaining to the choir ain’t gonna fix it. Torches and pitchforks aren’t going to help either I’m afraid.

Posted by: rapt | Feb 8 2005 3:33 utc | 65

@rapt
Who are these Everyones Uncle?
The so called ” Opposition party ” ?? Hell, who knows anymore…

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Feb 8 2005 3:44 utc | 66

Actually, by and large the “lack of addresses” problem exists because the addresses in IPv4 were allocated by the people who developed it. For those who are interested, I’m going to explain. Everybody else can just skip this post and read something more relevant to the topic at hand.

An IP address, in IPv4, is a set of four numbers, each of which can range from 0 to 255. These are written with periods between them, like this: 1.2.3.4. If you tinker with your computer’s network settings enough, you will see at least one of these, probably more, but more commonly, these are converted to text. This site, for example, is at http://www.moonofalabama.org, but your computer knows that you are really looking at 66.151.149.10. (At least, as of this writing.)

Although you might expect there to be 4294967296 (256 × 256 × 256 × 256) addresses because of the ranges of the four numbers, there are actually fewer usable addresses, because a certain number of them are unusable by design. The number is still huge, though. So why is there a shortage?

Well, the current system was never intended for public use. (You see side effects of this all the time; the lack of authentication in the original e-mail standards—which lets spammers send messages—is another such side effect.) Since the design was going to be private, the designers only set out to make sure that the institutions creating the design would never run out of addresses, not to make the addresses extensible to the world at large. Engineers do what they are trying to do, which is not always what they really should do. They divided up the addresses into chunks of different (but large) sizes, and assigned these chunks to different groups, reserving some (but not many, compared to the total) for future expansion. Each chunk is known as a subnet.

The largest chunks, relatively speaking, were called Class A subnets. Originally, any IP address whose first number was less than 128 was part of a Class A subnet, and each Class A subnet had over sixteen million addresses. In effect, fully half the possible IP addresses were in Class A subnets, and nearly all (or possibly all—I have forgotten, and things have changed enough that it’s hard to tell now) of the Class A subnets were given away to government and corporate groups that were developing computers: ARPA, IBM, and so on. There were (and are) also Class B subnets (each with about 65000 addresses) and Class C subnets (each with about 250 addresses). Classes D and E are defined, but are not part of the original division.

Each institution was given a subnet for its own, with no requirements for sharing or prudent use. (So, for example, there was no requirement that new machines would be given addresses from the beginning of the list. If you had a Class A subnet, you could have your first machine take number 1 and your second machine take number 1000000.) It became obvious relatively early on that there would not be enough addresses to go around, because those who came early had taken so many addresses—many more than they would ever want or use.

Some institutions with overly-large subnets (like IBM, as I recall) deliberately reworked their networks to remove “bubbles” from the list of addresses, and gave back most of the pool of unused addresses to the public. Some institutions refused. To aid in reclaiming addresses, the concept of a “subnet mask” has evolved—but it would take more time to explain than it’s worth, so just accept that it lets you create a subnet whose size is smaller than that of Class A, but not necessarily that of Class B, C, D, or E.

In order to deal with the problem of the lack of addresses (the number of computers out there on the public Internet exceeds the number of publicly available addresses), a system has evolved where small networks (such as, for example, a small network in the home of a broadband user) use generic, meaningless IP addresses in one of a few ranges which are understood not to stand for anything in the wider scheme of things. When they need to receive or send data to the rest of the world, they go through a single “gateway” address. Unless you do extra work to change this behavior, this usually means that you can connect to the outside world, but the outside world can only connect to your gateway. (The basic concept of a Firewall, in fact.) When you pay for an Internet connection, by and large you are paying for a gateway address.

Internet Service Providers (ISPs—the companies who sell Internet service) like to give out dynamic addresses, not static. A static address has to potentially actually be a “gateway”. You can run services with it, such as a web server, and it will “see” the whole Internet directly. A dynamic address, though, does not—which gives the ISP a number of tools for dealing with you. They can change your address over time, or require you to activate your connection with an identifier code, or even potentially give you a generic address which has a gateway at the ISP, although I haven’t heard of any commercial ISP doing that.

So dynamic addresses are great for the ISP, okay for the casual computer user, but not so hot for computer wonks.

IPv6 uses much longer addresses; instead of being four numbers in a row, an IPv6 address is sixteen numbers in a row. That means that the number of addresses is vast—so much so that you could give every person on earth a set of static addresses as large as a Class A subnet, and still not run out. Since computer wonks (like myself) would rather use static addresses than dynamic ones, the engineers tend to brag about this. (If you are running a server, a static address is not a must, but it makes so many things simpler and faster that it is worth the extra effort. You can make a dynamic address act sort of like a static address, and build a server that works around the problems, but doing so adds a whole layer of things which slow down your connections and can potentially go wrong.)

Privacy advocates, on the other hand, like dynamic addresses, because they are harder to track. If I post a nasty note from a static address, you can find out very easily where it originated (although that may merely be a gateway, or may be a relatively anonymous machine). If I post the same nasty note from a dynamic address, though, you must pass through an extra layer of bureaucracy in the form of my ISP, which may decide to require a warrant or a subpoena before it will give up the information, which is good for privacy. I suspect that this particular conspiracy theory springs from discussion between engineers—who prefer static addresses—and privacy advocates—who either are indifferent to or actively dislike them.

In actual fact, IPv6 will probably drastically increase the number of dynamic addresses in use. One of the major features of IPv6 is that machines using IPv6 can use dynamic addresses without having to get “permission” from a server, which is how dynamic addressing works in IPv4. My suspicion is that most people, not needing static addresses, will take advantage of this capability and run with dynamic addresses at all times. A summary (for the brave) of IPv6 features as they differ from IPv4 can be found at http://www.netbsd.org/Documentation/network/ipv6/#diff_ipv4.

Posted by: Blind Misery | Feb 8 2005 7:23 utc | 67

@rapt and whomever cares…
On pondering on this issue of whose “everybody” :
The United States has the largest, most expensive, most internationally-dispersed military the world has ever seen. The United States spends about as much on what it still teasingly calls “defense” as the rest of the world combined. But you knew that. What you didn’t know is that it isn’t big enough!
“[T]he American military is too small, not simply for the challenges we face today, but also as an appropriate hedge against future dangers” say 21 members of the U.S. Senate, who have sent a letter to President Bush urging him “to include funding for an expanded active duty Army and Marine Corps in your FY2006 budget request.”
Among those 21 Democrats signing the letter are John Kerry, Ted Kennedy, Hilary Clinton, Dianne Feinstein, Joseph Biden, and Joseph Lieberman.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Feb 8 2005 8:58 utc | 68

On the one hand you might expect that advocating an expanded military is a politically safe thing to do. I have some doubts about that.
On the other hand it has been proven that the true vote count is irrelevant. Therefore to retain/expand his power a senator must please those above him in the food chain. Any reference to political expediency is a salute to the past, a required formality for the sole purpose of keeping potential dissidents in check.
In other words, the scam of democracy if officially over and done. For another current example of this look up Sensenbrenner’s proposal that the Secretary of Homeland Security have the unrestricted power to over-ride any and all laws, with the provision that the Secretary’s decision is NOT subject to judicial review.
Has it sunk in yet?
I don’t think these guys expected their 9/11 fiasco to work as well as it has, but with such early success they are forging ahead madly.

Posted by: rapt | Feb 8 2005 14:56 utc | 69

i bet they didn’t think the american public would roll over quite so complacently either.

Posted by: b real | Feb 8 2005 16:40 utc | 70

I’m sure that having the public roll over was always part of the overall plan. The new Pearl Harbor had to wait till the people were properly anesthetised, and it took a few years to get that accomplished.
Then in 2001 the means were in place to establish and perpetuate the lies, plus silence and/or eliminate any embarrassing loudmouths.
The time is right; the mission is a “go”.

Posted by: rapt | Feb 8 2005 17:02 utc | 71

i was thinking about how little used FEMA, the USA PATRIOT ACT, the militarization of local police depts, the erosion of posse comitatus, praetor, and all that have had to be used for what they were actually intended.

Posted by: b real | Feb 8 2005 17:10 utc | 72

Let the Looting Begin … it’s not just Social Security, it’s not just the money-guzzling, low-quality “health care” system, it’s not just the corporate extortioners at work on our farmers, or the intelprop sharks, or the boughten media… it’s the whole picture, a culture devouring itself, devouring a planet, devouring its own future, all for the immediate profit of the ringmasters at the top.
it seems unbelievable to me, still. some part of the myth of western exceptionalism must have remained with me, somehow I must have thought in some remote corner of my consciousness that “they” would expropriate, enslave, rob and slaughter little brown people — and I would stand up and protest loudly and try to expose these crimes of course — but I would do so from a vantage point of relative safety, because “they” would not turn their looting and ransacking dogs of war (and business is war, never doubt it) onto “their own people.” I thought I would have to live with the guilt and shame of lurking in the protected heart of Empire, but that it was indeed protected.
but now the gloves are coming off. running out of new territories to annex, new peoples to humiliate and despoil, the looters are starting to look closer to home, at the accumulated wealth and prosperity of the imperial homeland and the soft, sheeplike populace that for so long has lived in luxury… all us Mama Corleones with our long-practised denial and our rags of respectability.
now they are going to loot their own people — us — our jobs, our savings, our households — they are going to knock down old ladies in the street and steal handbags, they are going to smash our piggybanks and shake out the last quarters. the looters have come home.
as Jared points out, in a befouled and dying biosphere all that the looters have bought themselves is the privilege of being the last to starve. but for those who will starve earlier, it’s not much consolation.

Posted by: DeAnander | Feb 8 2005 18:27 utc | 73

@DeA – well said – the world has been a little more progressive some time ago – now its going down again. Back to the roaring 20s.

Posted by: b | Feb 8 2005 18:51 utc | 74

B ~ In the 20s there was still plenty of oil in the ground, plenty of unpolluted air and water, plenty of rainforest, redwoods, fish etc etc. A lot fewer people.
Not the same now, as we struggle and kill for the last of the resources.

Posted by: rapt | Feb 8 2005 19:23 utc | 75

@ DeAnander
I am a little confused by what is meant by federal power. Somehow I thought that electricity was all private. What exactly is federal power and why is it only in the Northwest? Is this payback for voting for Kerry? On one hand we should welcome more expensive energy, I thought that was something you would approve of.
Granted, since it is put forward by this administration one is naturally sceptical but it did not seem as bad as you make it out.
Since I am asking questions, I would also like to know exactly where this one billion dollars a week for the war in Iraq goes. Since most of the soldiers there would be getting paid whether there was a war or not, pay should not be a big player even considering combat pay, family separation pay, active duty pay for reservists, and loss of income tax (you don’t have to pay income tax on money earned in a war zone). So where does it go? To buy bullets? Fuel? Food for the troops? I have a really sick feeling that it is mostly a transfer of wealth to a few individuals. All taxpayers and now their children and grandchildren are simply giving money they do not have to companies like Haliburton, KBR, Blackwell, Lockheed, and any other defense contractor.
Can anyone shed some light on either of these?

Posted by: dan of steele | Feb 8 2005 20:30 utc | 76

dan of steele
I saw a great breakdown of costs, but forget where. Transportation and fuel costs are the lion’s share of war cost.

Posted by: slothrop | Feb 8 2005 20:44 utc | 77

slothrop,
does that explain the huge profits reported by Exxon and Mobil this year? Many people I know here have often said that big oil runs the world. How clever of them to make money while fighting over their supplies.

Posted by: dan of steele | Feb 8 2005 20:53 utc | 78

dan of steele
plus outright fraud Monbiot tracks in his Guardian article of today.

Posted by: slothrop | Feb 8 2005 21:00 utc | 79

here is an example of the profits the oil companies made.
Why aren’t they charged for the service provided to them by the US military? Doesn’t seem right that they should get all the benefits and protection without paying.

Posted by: dan of steele | Feb 8 2005 21:01 utc | 80

You ask too many questions Mr. of steele. Perhaps you’d like to spend some time cooling off in the gulag?

Posted by: rapt | Feb 8 2005 22:09 utc | 81

Dan: They all profited from it, the US as the European oil companies: Shell, Exxon, Mobil, Totalfina. And it’s obviously linked to the high cost of oil. Their margins are at least proportional to the price of a barrel, so if the price is double, the benefits double as well.
DeA: “running out of new territories to annex, new peoples to humiliate and despoil, the looters are starting to look closer to home, at the accumulated wealth and prosperity of the imperial homeland and the soft, sheeplike populace that for so long has lived in luxury”
Looks like this is a pretty accurate description of the later Roman empire, or of the Soviet Union in the 1970/80s – notably when their big push to the warm South seas stalled in Afghanistan.
I really should get Jared’s Collapse. Looks like my kind of book. Not that I had to wait for him to see how unchecked populations and unchecked leaders systematically wreck their environment and their very means of survival – after all, it’s basically what the laws of thermodynamics are about, and here it’s even worse since we deal with a semi-open system which gets external output and should therefore manage to survive if done properly.
But frankly, if these idiots think that being the last to die miserably is a big victory, they’re worst losers than I ever thought. That’s a kind of comfort, actually. These criminal morons could never survive in the long run; they’ll die out pretty quickly. Therefore, even if the sane portion of mankind doesn’t manage to wipe out the irrational and termianlly stupid and criminal portion, they can still be assured the fuckers will get their due a bit later – actually, my money is that most of the job will be ober in one century, though some populations would be able to survive for a few centuries.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Feb 8 2005 22:49 utc | 82

Thanks for the information.It has been great to know that Russia is the second most oil exporter in the world only after Saudi Arabia.They are very rich in their resources as compared to Us which I think are consuming more products than they are making.

Posted by: play poker | Dec 16 2005 6:43 utc | 83

Thanks for the information.It has been great to know that Russia is the second most oil exporter in the world only after Saudi Arabia.They are very rich in their resources as compared to Us which I think are consuming more products than they are making.

Posted by: play poker | Dec 16 2005 6:44 utc | 84

Thanks for the information.It has been great to know that Russia is the second most oil exporter in the world only after Saudi Arabia.They are very rich in their resources as compared to Us which I think are consuming more products than they are making.

Posted by: play poker | Dec 16 2005 6:47 utc | 85