Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
February 12, 2005
Iraq is Not about Oil, it is about Tolerating No Dissent

There are many theories (most recently this Kos diary) bringing up a tidbit of information about Iraqi oil that purports to explain that the war was all about oil.

Of course, it was about oil, but maybe not in the way you think about it. The issue (which has domestic relevance as well) is – do you have an administration that does not tolerate opposition and is willing to use all means to crush it?

Oil is the most important item on which decisions must be taken in Iraq, but how these decisions are taken are more important than the actual decisions.

Let’s play a game: what’s the common point between these 2 groups of countries?

1)
+ Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Uzbekistan, Egypt, Kuwait, Emirates, Sudan, Yemen, Kazakhstan
+ Italy, Georgia, Ukraine, Poland, Japan, UK, Norway, Israel, Nigeria
2)
+ Burma, Cuba, Zimbabwe, North Korea, Angola
+ Venezuela, Russia, Iran, France, Spain, Canada.

Now look again (same countries, different groups):

A)
+ Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, Sudan, Angola, Kazakhstan, Emirates
+ Russia, Venezuela, Iran, UK, Norway, Nigeria, Canada.
B)
+ Burma, Cuba, Zimbabwe, North Korea, Pakistan, Uzbekistan, Egypt, Yemen
+ Italy, Georgia, Ukraine, Poland, Japan, France, Spain, Israel.

Can you tell how I put these together? And what it has to do with Iraqi oil?

Group 1 countries are currently seen as allies by the US administration in the fight against terrorism;
Group 2 countries are enemies or at least unhelpful partners (Not all countries have been put into that list, only those relevant to the point I’m coming to)

Group A are oil exporters
Group B are not

Now, you have noticed that in each group, the first line includes dictatorial regimes while the second line includes democracies (some flawed, obviously, but nevertheless democracies). So, as you can see, democracy has little to do with either (i) being a friend of the US or (ii) having oil or not.

Now here’s a trickier one:

a) Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Russia, Emirates
b) UK, Norway, Venezuela, Iran, Angola, Nigeria, Sudan, Canada, Kazakhstan.

vs

i) Norway, UK, Kuwait, Angola, Sudan, Canada, Emirates, Nigeria
ii) Russia, Iran, Venezuela, Saudi Arabia.

These are all oil-producing countries and significant exporters
a) are those that do NOT, for the most part, give access to their oil reserves to foreign oil majors
b) are those that DO
i) are those that do not use their oil exports as a political weapon
ii) are those that DO.

And another one:

aa) France, Germany, Canada, Mexico,
bb) Cuba, Iran, Russia, Venezuela

vs

11) Canada, Mexico, Spain, Russia, Germany
22) Cuba, Iran, France, Venezuela

aa) and bb) list opponents to the war in Iraq, separated in "allies" and others
11) list those that are treated as friends by the US despite this opposition, and 22) those that are not. These last four tend to be those that are the most outspoken (or frank) and explicit in their opposition to US policies.

The point that I am trying to make is that US policy is not about oil, it’s not about democracy, it’s about a general intolerance to dissent and opposition. It’s about "we know better, and if you don’t agree we’ll make you pay for your insolence".

It’s all about hubris, and oil has little to do about it.

Saddam Hussein was hated by Americans, because, like Castro and Chavez, he was (at least after 1990 and his "betrayal") an outspoken opponent of the US, unwilling to bow to US demands, always trying to use his oil as a political weapon (by limiting his production to jack up prices or by threatening to price it in euros) and, unlike Chavez and Castro, he had provided a not entirely unarguable case under international law that he should be removed, so he was (note – I am not saying that I agree with the war, but I am saying that it was at least legitimate to put pressure on him like the first UN resolution did – he was stubborn enough that even France and others could have come to agree that war was the only way to make him comply).

Castro and Chavez have been the target of various attempts to destabilise them, which, as can be expected, only strenghten their internal legitimacy, despite their otherwise quite flawed policies.

Iran is the same – outspoken against the US, willing to use its oil in its international posture, and thus especially targeted by the administration.

France, not an oil producer, not a dictature (yet), quite outspoken in its opposition to the US (both for good and bad reasons), has also been subject of a campaign of hate of unusual intensity in right wing circles and media in the past two years. France has the "luck" of (i) being part of the EU which is quite able to fight the US where it matters (money and trade) (ii) having the same high opinion of itself as the US and thus not really caring about its opinion in the US beyond pragmatic interests.

Russia and Saudi Arabia are special cases, because they are not very friendly to the US, and they can do pretty much what they want in many respects – including in their oil diplomacy – because they are pretty careful not to be in outspoken opposition to the US. The play real-politik games which sometimes put them in opposition to the US, but these are understood as a defense of their national interest and are not part of a pattern of explicit opposition to the US, so they can be understood and tolerated in the general scheme of things (they are fought in such instances by the US, of course, but not seen as enemies, only temporary opponents).

Today’s Iraq is a big unknown for the time being. Still being fully controlled by the US, it has no independnet policy of its own. It’s clear that what Bushco want is an "independent" but friendly country, not an independent and independent-minded country with policies that go against US interests.

Oil, of course, is an important issue, and the way Iraq will open up its reserves is an important decision, but the important thing is more about who decides than the actual decision. Opening up your oil reserves is not a bad thing per se – it can be profitable to you if you negotiate good terms with the oil companies (such as PSAs – see this post I wrote in the diary I mentioned above).

The US has shown that it will deal with countries who export oil to the US or don’t, who open their oil sector to them or not, and who are democracies or not, so I really thing this is not the issue. (The US of course has a preference for democratic, friendly countries that give them access, but it can live with the other options. What they do NOT like is public opposition, especially when it is backed by oil and thus is heard).

The question is – will the opening up of Iraq oil reserves be a sovereign decision, and will the US tolerate decisions by Iraqis that do not follow their preferences.

Oil in Iraq will not be developed as long as there is unsecurity and instability, and the big oil companies will NOT invest as long as they do not have adequate long term contracts with a legitimate, sovereign, government. The US can give juicy short term contracts to oil contractors in Irak, but this a budgetary issue (who gets to spend Iraq’s money), a sovereignty issue and how US money for Iraq is spent (a domestic US budgetary oversight issue) and has little to do with Iraq’s massive reserves.

So that question has domestic repercussions in the US – do you have an administration that tolerates no dissent, no opposition, and seems willing to act forcefully against those that oppose or criticise it – or try to "check and balance it"?

Comments

Kos posted.
Help me make it to the recommended list to compensate for the conspiracy minded diary on the same topic already on that list!

Posted by: Jérôme | Feb 12 2005 14:02 utc | 1

Thanks Jérôme for this post, very enlightening.

Posted by: Fran | Feb 12 2005 14:29 utc | 2

I’m sure you have noted too that this no dissent policy is the big driver domestically as well. Quite blatant actually, with the FBI violating the law in many cases to squash all dissent.

Posted by: rapt | Feb 12 2005 14:51 utc | 3

Surprise, surprise – from the Washington Times: Venezuela hits U.S. ‘impertinence’

CARACAS, Venezuela — Venezuela yesterday dismissed as “impertinence” U.S. criticism of its plans to buy Russian rifles and helicopters and suggested Washington was just upset about not being the seller.
“This is a sovereign action by Venezuela which President [Hugo] Chavez’s government is not willing to discuss,” Vice President Jose Vicente Rangel said in a terse statement.
It was the second public rebuttal this week by the leftist Mr. Chavez’s government of U.S. fears about the planned Venezuelan arms purchases announced several months ago.
Russia criticized the United States on Thursday after The Washington Times first reported that the Bush administration had filed a formal protest with the Russian Embassy in Washington about the pending sale of 100,000 AK-47 assault rifles.

I guess this can be considered dissent by Venezuela and Russia.

Posted by: Fran | Feb 12 2005 15:14 utc | 4

The point that I am trying to make is that US policy is not about oil, it’s not about democracy, it’s about a general intolerance to dissent and opposition. It’s about “we know better, and if you don’t agree we’ll make you pay for your insolence”.
“We know better” what is good for US. If that is better for you, we don´t really mind – if that´s worse for you, we don´t mind either.

Posted by: b | Feb 12 2005 15:24 utc | 5

And a last post, then other things need to be done. More dissent:

Thus, whether Iran is really working on a nuclear bomb or not, and most experts say they are not, just as they said the same thing about Iraq—the GW Bush minions, along with Israel and Blair will continue their lies until they foment an attack on Iran. Bush is hoping to bring France and Germany along on this new war, but they are too shrewd to follow this ignoramus and his new folly. They see his clout lessening, and they have all measured Conde Rice, just as has Putin of Russia, and they know she is not honest, not shrewd, and that she is more blow than show (no pun intended, though you may use it if you wish).
In the meantime, China is making deals for Venezuelan oil, Iran is cozying up to Russia and China, Syria is getting closer to Russia, Iraqi oil is not getting to the US because of blown up pipelines. We are getting less Venezuelan oil, our oil pipelines in Columbia are being blown up every week, and our costs for oil have skyrocketed with the weakened dollar. The world is watching the American economy go belly-up with the huge deficits in the economy made worse by our billions wasted in Iraq, by our falling dollar and by our astronomical trade imbalance. All major investors in the world, including those in America, are sending their monies into Euro denominated accounts, not dollar accounts or into U.S. Bonds and securities. Thus, if GW Bush wants to undertake his new folly, he may find there is no money to support it—and if he raises interest rates too fast and too high, the rest of the American economy, based now on real estate, could crumble and he could fall faster and be worse off than Humpty Dumpty—and no one, no matter how smart, might be able to put the American economy back together again in less than decades or longer.
In the meantime, the Chinese, certainly the world’s next world superpower, will laugh all the way as the American nation goes into the sink. Our military has been shown to be vulnerable and inefficient, our might has been measured by all major powers and have been found wanting (Iraqi resistance fighters, without planes, helicopters and tanks have stood off our best troops and weapons for years now—with little outside support, this according to Janes of England and other military assessment organizations, and from statements by outspoken American military experts).

Posted by: Fran | Feb 12 2005 15:48 utc | 6

Oops, somehow the link to the article above didn’t show up, here it is: Bush Is Leading America Into War and Disaster

Posted by: Fran | Feb 12 2005 15:50 utc | 7

Here’s another article from someone who is supposedly an inside source. Can’t vouch for the anonymous source or the site, but the POV makes sense to me: The real war is economic and we are losing.
The picture painted is one of Old World realpolitik vs. BushCo idealogues. Personally, I think we are getting close to the end game. Betting on Bush in this one is like putting your life savings on a mule at the Kentucky Derby.

Posted by: lonesomeG | Feb 12 2005 17:09 utc | 8

lonesomeG
The Jews are using us to front for them and the Russians are using the Iranians to front for them. A nice proxy war.
I stopped reading right there.
Jérôme
You’re argument here seems merely tautological:
Oil, of course, is an important issue, and the way Iraq will open up its reserves is an important decision, but the important thing is more about who decides than the actual decision.
It’s all about oil=who decides
There is no counterstatement in your argument. But maybe I’m missing something.

Posted by: slothrop | Feb 12 2005 17:26 utc | 9

LonesomeG:
“we have suddenly discovered that the Iranians, with help from the evil Russians, are armed with missiles that could sink ten aircraft carriers”
Well, if they just discovered that, they’re even more hopeless I’ve ever thought. This was open knowledge since months.
BTW, I agree with slothrop, this Truth-Seeker site seems to be a den of sewage. I mean, just look at the hysterically ridiculous article on Kinsey they have on front page. Sounds more like a spin-off of Aryan Nation than anything else. (though indeed there is a big economic aspect to this way, but I won’t bet on a Eurozone-Swiss-Russian-Chinese alliance here)

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Feb 12 2005 17:59 utc | 10

of course violence has an ‘educative’ component, in the way a robber ‘educates’ his victims to hand over his posessions. if on top of beating the shit out of people you hate their guts it just helps to make you better at beating the crap out of them. this is part of basic military training everywhere.
a more subtle aspect of the educative aspect of empire is that even those places where people live a good life and still pose no threat in any way *must* be made miserable least the other victims of opprobium have something to look forward to.
i think that it is largely futile to try to decode the motivations behind asocial persons or groups because these same motivations are largely irrelevant to themselves. the only thing important to them is outcome and that is what one should know how to foil.
still, for those incorregibly curious about motivations which are irrelevant, i can only recommend you read the “protocols of the learned elders of zion” to gain an overview of the current turmoil. the mere posession of this piece of work was punishable by death in the soviet union, and that is why it made it onto my reading list.

Posted by: name | Feb 12 2005 18:05 utc | 11

i can only recommend you read the “protocols of the learned elders of zion”
As far as I know, these were proven to be falsifications several times. Fodder for conspiration theories and paper shredders.

Posted by: b | Feb 12 2005 18:54 utc | 12

name,
the fact that you *recommend* the fake “protocols of the learned elders of zion” tells us a lot about *you*.

Posted by: MarcinGomulka | Feb 12 2005 20:09 utc | 13

There’s aslo this article, Unwinding the Death Bet which makes an interesting case about the Occupation of Iraq being more for economic intersts–another market for capital to fest upon.

How this works is this: Iraq, as it begins to stabilize, will need a source of capital and equipment. The assumption of the neo-cons was that if the US occupied Iraq, then it could box out other nations and pillage Iraq for themselves. However, the locals are not interested in being pillaged. The only way towards stability for an Iraqi government, is to bring the Europeans in and play them off against the Americans. The Americans get the cost of occupation (and the dollar centric currency world that allows another few years of mefo-cycling), and the Europeans get access to the future oil. In the last generation the Europeans have developed an oil drilling industry and the technology to match the United States drill bit for drill bit.
So when is the signal that this is coming unravelled? If, after elections, the Iraqi government begins competitive bidding for reconstruction, and the Europeans offer aid, in Euros, to open the way.
Snap will go the trap, on the Americans, as the smart mice cooperate to get the cheese. At this point the Asian central banks, no longer with an incentive to play along with the mefocycle will also dump. Under current numbers that would bring about a dollar at 1.89 to the Euro.

Posted by: The Key | Feb 12 2005 20:27 utc | 14

CJ, Slothrop:
Thanks for the feedback. I hadn’t seen the site before; will be more careful in the future.

Posted by: lonesomeG | Feb 12 2005 20:50 utc | 15

people are being slaughter for oil, a culture that gave us birth is being destroyed, deed upon heinous deed is piled up like the cadavers of jews at babi yar or countless other killing operations of germany’s campaign against the east & all that someon can bring to the table is that foolish old fake – the protocoles of zion – for fucks sake is it not possible for people to understand that we are knee high in blood shit & bone because people are venal, want more than they already have, want to defeat their enemies into dust as deanander suggests – that you do not need to research any conspiracy theories of groups, sects, even of elites – we are knne high in shit because of the stupidity & the venality of our rulers
we are there because we do not resist enough
i do not want to enter into a semantic dialogue about what are blatantly the most evil of deeds. a campaign was waged for iraqui oil a long time ago, for a control of the middle east by ongoing american administrations. they lied their way into a war – a war that should have never happened – for any reason. that war has been carried out with the greatest brutality imaginable & continues in that fashion.
not only have the americans savaged any notion whatsoever of ‘sovereignty’, they have mocked & brutally mocked every imaginable world forum, they have destroyed any notion of justice – elsewhere & within the belly of the beast itself. they are continuing a war of anhilation against the arab people – especially in the cultural sense but above all in the bloody acts of their occupation.
this is not being done by a cabal or even of an elite but a class & its representatives who seek to consolidate their future – when in reality it is falling apart – falling apart at the seams
the american empire is dead – it’s just that the administration does not know it
it will continue its despoilation unconcerned with the cultures & generations of people who will be borne to conflict – i cannot see it ending in our lifetimes – it will continue & we will grow further & further apart from any possible resolution
the masquerade over the palestinian people is a global disgrace to us all – that these people have not been defended – by the un as a force of intercession – will be the shame that is read into any future history books
& ô yes it is being done for oil, for control, & for the first of many global attacks against the coming worlds of the chinese, of the indians & even of the indonesians
the transmutations of capital are not so vast that they are unexplained in the works of marx – on the contrary – they are explained very clearly & the practice of brutality by the ruling class is no different at all from the practice of empires since they began
but they are above all a human project worked with human hands – seek not the hysterical conspiracies – but the cruel, callous & concrete acts of capital – the day to day facts of mans almost incomparable bestiality

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Feb 12 2005 22:06 utc | 16

this is not being done by a cabal or even of an elite but a class & its representatives who seek to consolidate their future – when in reality it is falling apart – falling apart at the seams
Agree with you r´giap but its not only a class, that maybe the case in GB, but in the US its more (in my experience). Its the more than a class that´s supporting the “beacon on the hill” self-deception. Denying their own suffering at the rules pressed on them.
That`s why I find Billmons steadily expressed comparisson with Germany 1930-1945 so fitting. A people in self denial supporting rulers that use them against the self interest of the people but with their support.

Posted by: b | Feb 12 2005 22:38 utc | 17

@Jerome, you definitely need to read Perkins: “Confessions of an Economic Hitman” now. He’s the guy who worked out the deal for the Saudis to spend their buckolas by bringing in Am. Cos. (Bechtel, etc.) to “modernize” Saudi infrastructure, cities etc. & to put the direct the rest of it into the US econ. Perkins said it was the staunch refusal of Hussein to do the same that sealed his doom. There are many dimensions to “oil” – who decides who gets it, how it’s denominated & how the revenues are spent are all impt.
This doesn’t answer the question, however, of why Bu$hCo invaded after Hussein sent word @11th hour that he would accede to all demands as long as he could stay in power. Anyone have any thghts. on why they still decided to invade – other than the fact that only wars allow the Infant in the WH to feel like “a man” – something that absolutely cannot be disregarded.
We also seriously over-simplify & distort things by saying the “war isn’t going well”. One has to ask, going well for whom? Have to keep reminding ourselves that these Kleptocrats do not give a shit about the welfare of citizens – be they Iraqiis or Americans. These monsters LOVE WAR – both sexually & financially. The fact that there is constant fighting still in Iraq doesn’t in itself mean to them that things aren’t going well.
I recently heard interview w/someone, whose name unfortunately slips my mind, on Pacifica radio who discussed just how successful the invasion was. xUS used to be closed out of ME markets. Now other countries in region so scared of being invaded, that they’ve negotiated a “free trade” pact that will be fully implemented w/in the decade……So things seem to be going quite well in some respects. We need Naomi Klein to write another piece laying this out. (I’ll try to come up w/reference & post it later.) Is Iran refusing to play ball by opening it’s economy to intrusion by xUS Kleptos? Did they refuse to sign on, or were they not invited? That’s critically important info. for sorting out what’s behind this.

Posted by: jj | Feb 12 2005 22:50 utc | 18

Yes, it is disconcerting to read an article and agree with most points but the intent of the article is different than your construct of the issue.
The Bush Administration in its full blown slavishness to Leo Strauss dictum to lie to the American masses does polling and focus groups on its sound bites. If it polls great, they use it although the message has no relationship to reality; i.e. Democracy is shining forth in Iraq, Social Security Crises, or We don’t want the Smoking Gun to be a Mushroom Cloud.
Thus, you can read articles by Islamic Fundamentalists, Realist Conservatives or even Libertarians and because they tend to start from reality you can see their truths but you have to be careful where their conclusions lead you. This is different than the Bush Administration rhetoric which is totally divorced from reality but which never the less has the full cooperation of corporate media in dissemination of its message.

Posted by: Jim S | Feb 12 2005 23:19 utc | 19

Excellent jj.
B and Marcin,
I scanned thru the protocols some time ago. I would not be so quick to acccept that they are fake. Do you take wikipedia to be the final word? After reading thru Marcin’s link I do not.

Posted by: rapt | Feb 13 2005 0:22 utc | 20

As far as I know, these were proven to be falsifications several times. Fodder for conspiration theories and paper shredders.

a typical german reaction. anything that could even remotely cross our masters is dismissed and made anathema. it is in the end unimportant whether they are a hoax. fact is that the protocols exist and that there are enough people on both sides of the fence who believe they are not a hoax (as opposed to a “falsification”).
of course the protocols are not the only manual for the total destruction of the ‘other’ in existence. another piece of literature of the same genre in my posession is the malleus maleficarum.
today the ‘other’ are those mentioned above, aggravated if the country happens to be muslim.

Posted by: name | Feb 13 2005 0:24 utc | 21

@name
a typical german reaction
Sure, there is such a thing as a typical german reaction. When smelling meals from various kind of krauts, Germans salviate. The ultimate test of belonging to a people.
And all Americans follow the amargeddon tales and all russians are communists.
I do believe these protocols are fake, made with the intend to discreminate people of a certain heritage. Such papers come up in time about many different people and from various sources. The tendency to fall on them is the very psychology fascism uses to legitimate its deads.
Any attempt to group people in such wide manner, like typical german is the fake creation of an enemy – us versus them – and I have not seen any good coming from such categorizations.

Posted by: b | Feb 13 2005 10:35 utc | 22

Of course! Why didn’t I think of this before! Stalin and many others – oh yes Pol Pot why not – and the crazed husband who murdered my good friend acted that way because of.. Dissent ! Or hubris! Pure Orwell! Jerome, really!
However, following along, an interesting point is made. It seems that US hegemony is based on a peculiar relation between the inner (homeland) and the outer (world) – crushing dissent at home abroad is much the same thing (see rapt, 9.51, too). E.g:
Jerome’s post reminded me of passages in Linda Polman’s “We did nothing.” Some sentences about Haiti, 1994: quote:
It is not the restoration of democracy I am witnessing. It is the American Army (and its sidekick, Brown and Root) erecting, at breathtaking speed, the set for a movie about democracy. They are rapidly throwing together an illusion designed to distract the eye from reality. (..)
Day and night, the Americans seem to be working their way through a list of props required for a Democratic Republic. Top of the list: A presidential palace. (..)
Cedras’ officials moved out days before the invasion taking with them everything that was not nailed to the floor (..) American contractors have just hung up new curtains in the Senate (..)
(Freddy, an American soldier, is bothered by the skinny staring Haitians, who are amazed to see white men doing physical work like digging holes and painting fountains):
“They make me nervous..It smells just like Somalia, don’t you think?”
(Polman thinks it smells worse but doesn’t say so…) “Don’t they have nothing better to do? I reckon they got a lot of ground to make up if they want to look like a real democracy. Why don’t they go lay some drains or something?”
(..) Haiti is slowly turning into a showcase for the world’s largest arms manufacturers and dealers. Haitians who get in the way of the military set-building can expect to face demonstrations of the very latests gadgets. (Microwaves, blinding flashes, etc.) (end quote.)
This kind of completely bizarre and very violent cleaning up, with its deathly weapons and homey paint and curtains, does look like the crushing of unruliness and dissent, on territory that is ‘just there’, a place with no characteristics except weather.
Of course, the Americans did exactly the same in Iraq. Photo-shopping out the previous rulers didn’t work. Remember Saddam’s statue?
However Iraq has more than weather. The next point is that made by slothrop at 12.26.

Posted by: Blackie | Feb 13 2005 10:50 utc | 23

the fact that the “protocols of zion” are fake has been proved by documentary evidence – a large part of the content was plagiarized from something previously published – the document “exists” and is believed and propagated, but whether or not it is true DOES matter – the symbolic interactionist school of sociology’s slogan is “things perceived as real become real in their consequences” – and things perceived NOT to be real have different consequences –
zealous hatred of “the other” is not what the world needs more of
it has become clear to me that this poster who goes by “name” is offensively antisemitic – not just with this post, but several previous posts

Posted by: mistah charley | Feb 13 2005 14:54 utc | 24

> it has become clear to me that this poster who goes
> by “name” is offensively antisemitic – not just with
> this post, but several previous posts
charley, you trying to insult me ? is that your zealous hate of my opinions what pushes you to do that ?

Posted by: name | Feb 13 2005 20:57 utc | 25

no, “name”, i am not trying to insult you – i am trying to describe you accurately
i recall a previous time (here, i believe, although possibly when whiskey bar had comments) that you referred to jews as parasites on america – my rebuttal then was that jews were an integral part of america, not parasites – do you recall this? combine this prior incident with your current credulous or cynical endorsement of the forged “protocols” and i believe “antisemitic” is denotatively accurate
to me, this is “offensive”, although i acknowledge not everyone would feel the same way

Posted by: mistah charley | Feb 13 2005 22:29 utc | 26

charley,
a) because of family reasons, you did in fact insult me with your righteous tirades. lets suppose for just a moment that there are some ‘semites’ in my family who do not exactly speak arabic, even if that idea strikes you as weird given your opinion of me and what/who i am.
b) to use the ultimate stinkbomb, the WMD of all debates, namely the accusation of ‘antisemitism’ in lieu of substance does not exactly shine a positive light on you. i do resent that accusation and see it as an insult not only to myself but to this weblog. it would be appropriate for you to find a face-saving way to retract.
c) if you had read and understood what i wrote in my previous postings in this thread you would in fact have noted that i did not ‘promote’ or ‘endorse’ the protocols but that i do recommend that anybody interested should read them. that is a subtle but important difference which may have escaped you.
d) i do not remember the ‘incident’ you mention. you are welcome to show me the incriminating quote but with URL please so i know you are not making things up. i would expect that due to your obvious sloppy reading you did either not understand what i said or you are decontextualizing whatever i may have said or that you are remembering your very personal (and skewed) interpretation rather than what i said. in any case, i’ll be glad to “describe accurately” whatever i meant then, just to dispel any doubts you may have.

Posted by: name | Feb 13 2005 23:48 utc | 27

name
i am glad to show you the “incriminating quote…with URL” (so you can “know i am not making things up”):

when – and if – americans try to get rid of their zionist parasites and their friends, they will find some nasty surprises laying in the waiting: debts being recalled, attacks from the new allies and friends of the zionists who will now be in posession of all those secrets and cool weapons which the americans thought were being made to defend them against these enemies.

this is from
http://www.moonofalabama.org/2004/09/one_month_ago.html
Posted by: name | September 15, 2004 03:16 PM
my reply at that time included the following –

To judge from what is said, “name” is a European, and has harsh words for Americans (of which I am one). To my sorrow, I agree with many of the sentiments. However, there is an aspect of the viewpoint expressed that I find rather disturbing – the anti-semitic angle. I agree with Juan Cole’s analyses of the American contribution to the lack of peace in the Middle East. I don’t doubt the power of the Israel lobby in American politics, or the Likudnik sentiments of the NeoCons who control American war policy. But I do doubt the analytical usefulness of categories like “zionist parasites”. The Jews in America are not extraneous to our country – they are an integral part of it – for good and for bad. I speak as an AngloSaxon (mostly) Protestant by origin, now regularly attending Catholic services with my Hispanic wife. I believe there are MANY conspiracies operating in the world today, each intended to maximize various goals relevant to the groups involved. Certainly those who own things, those who tell other people what to do, and those who tell other people what to think, intend to continue doing so.

Posted by: mistah charley | September 17, 2004 01:38 PM
those with an interest in this controversy are invited to read the originals, which provide the context –
and i am interested to see what response “name” may make

Posted by: mistah charley | Feb 14 2005 1:04 utc | 28

Well, the protocols being just the last in a list of several conspiracy books that took the juicy bits from previous books, dating back 50 years before, and originally attacking the Jesuits – don’t be surprised by this, there was a staunch anti-Jesuite if not merely anti-Catholicism trend going on not only in know-nothing US but also in liberal Europe -, this pretty much shows they’re not genuine, but as the previous books they’re based on, fakes.
Then, the thing to keep in mind is that they obviously are not only anti-semitic and aimed at Jews, but also anti-progressive. The core is that the whole of the by then very large liberal/progressive/socialist/communist world is a massive world-wide plot by some Jews to take over the world. So, the aim wasn’t only to increase anti-semitism (which was already quite high in Poland, Ukraine, Russia and Germany), but to convince the masses that socialism was Evil and that they should stick to their conservative backwards monarchical regime. I don’t mean to say they were not aimed at the Jews, for they obviously intended to blame the Jews for pretty every bad thing happening, but they also wanted to completely discredit the whole liberal movement as well as the revolutionary-leaning leftist movements of the late 19th, as tool of conspirational Jews that were already hated by many (probably including a sizable portion of the leftists). The whole thing was even more vicious in its aims than most people suppose; the real goal was to bring people throughout as much of Europe as possible back to a medieval mindset where peasants obeyed the King, feared the nobles, and when pissed off, took their rage against the part of the nation that was even weaker overall than the masses of peasants: the minorities like Jews and Gypsies.
And I think name shouldn’t necessarily see a massive conspiracy dating back 100+ years ago with a complete masterplan to enslave the Middle East. The Western Christian powers didn’t need the “Elders of Zion” to want it, or to try it. As was said before, the Brits and now the US use the Jews and now Israel as a proxy outpost bringing chaos and division inside the Middle East at least as much as Israel is using the US to ensure its position in the area. There’s no one-way puppet-mastering at work here. If there wasn’t any Jew in 1920/1950, they would probably have propped up the local Christians as their proxies there, first of all the Lebanese ones.
People shouldn’t lose sight that, even if Israel seems sometimes to run the show with BushCo, if things go really very badly in the area, it’s the Jews in Israel who will pay the bloody price; the wealthy American elite (as well as most of the US people) will safely see the devastation from afar, and the Israelis will realise far too late that they had been had.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Feb 14 2005 1:19 utc | 29

Jérôme à Paris wrote:
“It’s all about hubris, and oil has little to do about it.”
Hubris – Overbearing pride or presumption; arrogance
Perhaps a better word to describe:
Preeminence – The condition or fact of being dominant; A position of exalted widely recognized importance.
and since it won’t be economic dominance –
Military Preeminence
and as the US is now utterly dependent upon imported energy — use the Military Preeminence
to ensure the supply.

Posted by: JBob | Feb 14 2005 1:39 utc | 30

> and i am interested to see what response “name” may make
thanks for the quote. if you read my above comment and compare with your recrimination you will note, IF you pay attention, that i say “zionists”. not “jews” but “zionists”. apples and pineapples.
the distinction between “jews” and “zionists” is that first are persons who belong to the judaic culture, religion or ethnicity, second are persons who espouse the ideology or political view called zionism. zionists are not necessarily jews, and in fact such a thing as “christian zionists” exists. i may suggest you check up the wikipedia or any other good reference and carefully read thru following definitions
– “jew” or “jewish”
– “zionism” and “zion” (or “sion”)
– “judaism”
– “semitism” or “semitic”
– “anti-semitism”
the pentateuch or torah may also be of help for you to find out who sem or shem was (a must IMO). ask your favorite priest, rabbi or sheikh for guidance here.
since you insulted me twice i expect you retract your insult and offer me an apology, and that you refrain from insulting me in the future.

Posted by: name | Feb 14 2005 2:07 utc | 31

“name” –
since you did not go to the cited URL, despite your explicit request for it, i will quote again from there, overlapping with my earlier quote from you but including something that refutes your most recent comment, in which you wish to inform me that “jew” and “zionist” are not the same – you wrote, back there in mid-sept. 2004:

they will go to concentration camps and find it ok, they will continue paying tribute to the jews and do nothing against it, they will morph into the equivalent of a beehive, with a worker class, a warrior class and a minuscule ruling class.
when – and if – americans try to get rid of their zionist parasites and their friends,

these are your words – now that you see them in front of you once again, you may or may not admit that a reasonable reader could infer that you are making some sort of equivalence between “paying tribute to the jews” and “zionist parasites” – but really, whatever you say now is of no concern to me
i do not intend to reply to you again

Posted by: mistah charley | Feb 14 2005 2:43 utc | 32

name –
it is often hard to know people’s actual opinions on some topics based purely on what’s written on blogs/discussion boards.
Even if that was not your intent, your comment on the protocol of the elders of zion was ambiguous and such ambiguity should not be tolerated. We have sufficient experience with neo-Nazi groups in France and Germany to know that they don’t (usually) dare say things like “it’s the Jews’ fault” or something erqually direct, but they say “[insert revisionist historian or famous antisemitic document like the protocol] has interesting things to say, from an historian’s point of view”, which sounds like they are just trying to discuss historical issues when all they really want is to bring attention to the relevant revisionist/anti-semitic stuff.
So, I do not know what your intent was, I am willing to believe that it was just honest intellectual discourse, but please, next time you allude to such documents, make it clearer what your position is and don’t play with ambiguity. On such topics, it is not acceptable, and I WILL censor further comments that are ambiguous enough to be construed as an apology of antisemtism or hate speech of any kind.
(It’s sad that a thread about “not tolerating dissent” should come to that, but there you go).

Posted by: Jérôme | Feb 14 2005 8:50 utc | 33

I regret that my link to a dubious site initiated this discussion. While I believe any discussion of the domestic alliances that lead us into the Iraq war which ingnores the Israeli angle is incomplete, I certainly don’t want to have the conversation conducted in terms the Aryan Nation would approve. I glossed over the inflamatory phrase Slothrop pointed out because I was focused on other aspects of the article and carelessly assumed that “Jews” referred to Israel-firsters (here and in Israel) and AIPAC. Israeli interests (as defined by nationalists) are very well organized and represented in this country, just as Christian fundamentalist interests are. Since both are trying move public policy in directions they favor, public discussion of their views and tactics is justified without being subject to charges of being anti-Semitic or anti-Chistian. Perhaps we could discuss this on another thread some time but begin from a much less objectionable starting point. Personally, my views are close to those of CJ (8.19, 2/13).

Posted by: lonesomeG | Feb 14 2005 17:17 utc | 34

lonesomeG
geez. no apologies from you needed. I enjoy your posts.

Posted by: slothrop | Feb 14 2005 17:24 utc | 35

Even if it is all about oil, some people don’t mind:

In Pewaukee I fully expected such observations to cause some static, at least during the formal post-lecture Q&A session before most of the audience drifted off into a light snow. I was later advised not to misread the lack of demurral as concurrence, but rather to chalk it up to Mid-West reticence.
Some twenty folks did linger in a small circle that was dominated by a persistent, well dressed man (let’s call him Joe), who just would not let go:
Surely you agree that we need the oil. Then what’s your problem? Some 1,450 killed thus far are far fewer than the toll in Vietnam where we lost 58,000; it’s a small price to pay… a sustainable rate to bear. What IS your problem?
I asked Joe if he would feel differently were it to have been his son that was killed, rather than Cpl. Wichlacz, but the suggestion seemed so farfetched as to be beyond Joe’s ken. (And therein lies yet another important story). So I resorted to a utilitarian approach. “Joe, we’re just not going to be able to control the oil in Iraq. The war is unwinnable. There are 1.3 billion Muslims, and they are very upset with us; they will not let us prevail.”
But this too made little impact on Joe.
How about Because It’s Wrong
I sized Joe up as one who would press for having the Ten Commandments prominently displayed in the courthouses of America. So I took a new tack, asking him, “Isn’t one of those commandments about stealing… and one about killing… one about lying… and even one about coveting your neighbor’s possessions? Would you think we might lop off those four and whittle the tablets down to the remaining six so as to spare ourselves potential embarrassment?”
Joe walked off to drive his gas-guzzler home.

Posted by: DeAnander | Feb 14 2005 19:32 utc | 36