Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
February 25, 2005
How Many People is Too Many People?

The UN has just released its latest World Population Prospects report on population estimates, which is essentially a detailed interactive data base, country by country, until 2050, with a number of very detailed sub-categories under various scenarios which I entourage you to play with.

The 2 biggest headlines are the following:

  • Population to increase by 40% (see this BBC summary)
  • India to overtake China as the largest country (see the Financial Times, which put the article on its front page this morning).

Demographic studies are often neglected in the political discourse because they talk about events and facts that seem to be so far off in the future that they are not worth bothering about. Yet, as Emmanuel Todd’s remarkable "After the Empire" book shows (as did his previous, The Final Fall, which anticipated the end of the Soviet Union), long term demographic trends have a massive impact on geopolitical evolutions of various countries.

  • Europe (except France and the UK), Japan and Russia will have to manage a fall in their population, which is an unprecedented event in Human history outside of times of war or plague. We all know about the problems this will create for pensions systems and health care costs, but have we thought about the consequences in terms of (i) the growing conservatism of the populations (ii) conversely, the diminished requirements for "growth", "speed", "change" that put so much pressure on our resources, (iii) the impact on immigration patterns as older people require labor-intensive care which cannot be provided by younger generations, together, (iv) in countries like Russia, the emptying of resource-rich territories (such as Siberia) which will put tremendous geopolitical pressure on border-crossing issues with heavily populated and resource-poor neighbors?;
  • China will face the same aging issue, except that it is still a (relatively) poor country. The Western world has been preparing itself for the past 20 years or more for the predictable aging of its population, and has slowly organized the required resource transfers. In China, the demographic evolution is unprecedented both in its rapidity (less than a generation) and its scale (for the time being, it is still the largest population in the world, with more than 20% of world population). Combined with the gender unbalance (more boys than girls), we have many ingredients for massive instability and upheaval as a society must suddenly learn to cope with a growing number of dependents at the same time as it is busily trying to move from an agricultural society to the industrialized age and manage it in a context of growing resource (oil, water, commodities, even land) scarcity;
  • meanwhile, the developing world, where most of the population growth is taking place, is still facing the same old boring problems like poverty, disease and lack of education. Another UN institution,
    The UNDPA provided its own report on population growth a few months ago, focusing on AIDS, reproductive and poverty issues (see also a summary here (pdf, 6 pages)). I am sure that others more qualified than me among you can comment on the effects of Bush/conservative policies on reproductive issues around the world…

We are going through the last – and most explosive phase – of population growth, which as we can see, is a mixture of simultaneous growth and aging which will create many tensions between generations within countries and between countries for the allocation of resources and wealth.

Comments

My 0.02 € on this
– India and China will “solve” some of their population problems through war.
– The bird flu and AIDs or some other desease will take care of other “critical” growth places.
Not a happy picture, but I do not see any way to avoid this.

Posted by: b | Feb 25 2005 19:24 utc | 1

One would need to take a vey careful look at that report, as I doubt sitting here w/the end of the age of cheap oil being on the horizon, that any of the assumptions that underlie the statistics will hold up. It should make for humorous reading in 2050, at least for the few people who are literate then.

Posted by: jj | Feb 25 2005 19:25 utc | 2

as Diamond points out, complex cultures often collapse within a very short time from the peak of their numbers and wealth. they do not generally undergo a gentle, prolonged decay. y’all must be familiar with the Petri dish analogy from way back: everything’s just peachy until the Nth generation. these UN projections I find dubious for this reason: I don’t think we can maintain present trends for that long.
the overshoot of human numbers and resource consumption/extraction as compared to what the planet’s biosystems can sustain, is as central to our current nightmares as the overcapitalisation and excessive efficiency of the industrial process and capital accumulation (meaning that billions of people are “surplus to requirements” for the capitalists in charge, not needed as labour and too poor to be a market).
now mix the very probable peak oil event into the picture, along with grotesque land maldistribution and the deliberate sabotage of local food self-sufficiency — and from where I sit the next 2 decades or so look frankly terrifying. the pursuit of corporate profit is undermining half the tactics and strategies that might get us through a very difficult period with minimal damage; and the pursuit of religious fundamentalism is undermining the rest. the BushCo regime is deliberately sabotaging the provision of contraceptives and contraceptive education worldwide, for example, even as corporate agribusiness deliberately exterminates the independent market-farmer who provides regional food security. fundamentalist Taliban-style regimes are deliberately suppressing female literacy and employment opportunities, when there is a strong correlation between female education and job seeking, and a reduction in family size.
I would not be at all surprised if there were elite “thinkers” (like Kissinger, Huntington, Summers) coolly calculating that killing off about half the world population would still leave plenty of poor people to work for s**t wages in the maquiladoras and mines. meanwhile the world’s poor continue to accumulate in the slums and favelas that Mike Davis documents in his latest book — a critical mass of anger without political consciousness (the primary organising ideologies of the megaslums are Islam and Pentecostalism). concentrated into such slum areas they are even more vulnerable to extermination campaigns than mobile bands of peasants or rebels in the few remaining TAZ. presently existing bioweapons could take out entire slum cities in a matter of months, perhaps even with some degree of plausible deniability.
I would not put it beyond the ruling elite to do such a thing. the smallpox-infested blanket idea was tried and worked. the Tuskegee Experiment is documented. the unnecessary cremation of two Japanese cities by atomic weapons is documented. the Nazi project of “optimising” the German population is documented. but mass murder still doesn’t solve the fossil fuel peak.
consider for a moment that most of what grows on America’s huge factory-farm hectarage is not suitable for human consumption. it is feedstock for energy-intensive industrial process whose end result is the pseudo-food purveyed at a huge markup to the captive markets of metropolitan America. if the peak oil event disrupts long haul transport in the ways that we might expect, American cities suddenly find their long food supply lines getting very expensive; and the industrial processes needed to transform the low-grade feedstock become very expensive. if we pulled the plug on the whole thing overnight, and the starving masses from the cities rushed out into the countryside desperately seeking food — there would for the most part be nothing they could successfully eat, except in those few regions where the family-scale diversified market-farmer survives.
I am never sure how dismal to be, but the indicators at this present time are startlingly negative. if we accept conservative estimates of the effects of global warming, we will be losing inhabitable surface area on all our continents and islands; extreme weather will contribute to the degradation of agricultural productivity; rising temperatures will increase the range and intensity of disease vectors, parasites and pests (in other words the disadvantages of the tropical belt will move outwards in both directions, covering a wider area). and during this same period we will have squandered billions of barrels of fossil fuel and trillions of dollars on futile, pointless wars over the remaining oil resources, contributing further to the degradation by poisoning agricultural land and water supplies with chemical munitions, DU, the smoke from burning oil fields and all the rest. we will be running out of cheap fossil fuel just at the point where we will need major energy expenditure to build seawalls, repair bridges and washed-out highways, and rebuild storm-damaged cities and towns — not to mention to transport food into areas temporarily devastated by extreme weather.
what I personally see (and admittedly my crystal ball tends to be a sorrowful shade of dark blue) is a confluence of mutually reinforcing negative trends — a catalytic reaction of the same kind that Diamond documents in his studies of collapsed civilisations of the past. the habits and strategies that have made us successful in the past have so strong a hold on our imagination that we will apply them blindly and desperately to an untenable present position in which they only make things worse. more profiteering, more and “better” resource extraction, more and “better” overproduction and hyperconsumption, more war, more megascale technomanagerial hubris, more “success” in other words, will only render us more vulnerable and accelerate the crash.
here’s a somewhat less pessimistic perspective
one ironically bright note is that in industrialised nations the toxic stew of synthetic chemicals in which we live seems to be reducing our fertility. if we lose the high technology luxury of “fertility clinics,” artificial insemination and all the rest, then our live-birth rate may drop somewhat.
at this point all scenarios are to be feared — our present position is frankly unsustainable, untenable, impossible. I am not sure which is worse — the idea that we will solve our problems (temporarily) by an act of genocide on such a scale that it can hardly be imagined (letting loose bioweapons in the slums of the third world, “ethnically cleansing” the planet of half its people, that kind of thing, all directed from the boardrooms and secret-policemen’s conference rooms of Davos and NYC and London)… or the idea that our species, failing such an act, will find its numbers limited in the traditional ways: sickliness, starvation, intranecine squabbling, infanticide, cannibalism, femicide, epidemics, sudden brushfires of localised mass slaughter a la Rwanda.
one last thought — imho what ended slavery was not merely the heroic efforts of excellent people, but the advent of cheap fossil fuel and mechanisation. the elite substituted energy-slaves for human slaves. if we run out of cheap fossil fuel then I anticipate a slow slide back into the justification and normalisation of slavery. human labour has always been a renewable energy resource. before steam and gasoline engines, teams of hundreds of sweating, miserable men pulled ships upstream on the great Chinese rivers. after fuel becomes “too expensive,” how long will it be before prison-economy nations like the US start using forced prison labour to substitute for expensive oil? or in the mines to extract coal? much of what we call “freedom” and “enlightenment” is the product of material surplus, an easing of the enslavement of human beings because other more “efficient” sources of energy and work became available.
I’m sorry if this all sounds a bit like frothing and raving… I could cite chapter and verse, footnotes and refs, but am writing in some haste and admittedly under the cloud of despair that has shrouded my every move and thought for the last ten years and more (ever since I got a grip on the magnitude of our problems). so far the only counterarguments are fantastical ones — fantasies about abiotic oil, miraculous infinite energy sources (uh huh, and we can eat pure energy, right), bold journeys to get resources from elsewhere in the solar system (like Mars is rolling in topsoil, which we desperately need, or oceans that haven’t been stripmined as we have ours), and the ever-durable “some miracle technology will save us.”
one of the most maddening things to me about all this current geopolitical insanity, is that it is all counterproductive. when the ship is sinking, the last thing we want to see is the officers and men in a great big drunken brawl on the afterdeck instead of manning the pumps, readying the lifeboats, etc. and yet here we are, brawling drunkenly on the afterdeck and shooting more holes in the hull in our eagerness to kill each other for a place in the lifeboats that we haven’t even bothered to effin’ launch.
Fortress Atlantica is possible, I suppose. but I am haunted by Diamond’s comments on the folly of elites: that all they win for themselves in the long term is the privilege of being the last to starve.
sorry this got so long, y’all. and so gloomy. but someone has to say these things, if only in the hope of being credibly contradicted. think maybe I should change my handle to “Jeremiah”? I sincerely hope that 10 or 15 years from now, if most of us are still alive and well, one of y’all will send me an email saying, “Well, don’t you feel silly now that all your doomsday scenarios didn’t happen!” I would, at that date or at any time, be gloriously grateful to feel silly.

Posted by: DeAnander | Feb 25 2005 21:05 utc | 3

DeA – it will not be 10-15 years, it will be longer, but -I’m sorry- you are right on.
Kissinger’s 1974 Plan for Food Control Genocide

NSSM 200 similarly concluded that the United States was threatened by population growth in the former colonial sector. It paid special attention to 13 “key countries” in which the United States had a “special political and strategic interest”: India, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Indonesia, Thailand, the Philippines, Turkey, Nigeria, Egypt, Ethiopia, Mexico, Brazil, and Colombia. It claimed that population growth in those states was especially worrisome, since it would quickly increase their relative political, economic, and military strength.

Any idea about recent events in those countries?
Monsato is not only about money, it is also about population control.

Posted by: b | Feb 25 2005 21:33 utc | 4

Does anybody really believe that the Bush program of abstinance against AIDs infection in Africa is religion driven?
It´s the most effective way to increase AIDs infections. Why do they promote it?

Posted by: b | Feb 25 2005 21:37 utc | 5

You’re asking for credible contradictions? Hmmm. Well, there’s some wiggle room here – for example, granting the unsustainability of the 1st world way of life, one can also find some grace in the fact that so much of it is a ridiculous waste of effort, so if it goes away the actual quality of human life need not necessarily be much reduced
and as has been mentioned at this blog before, there’s a real chance of adjustment (substitution, economizing, prioritization) as energy prices go up and up
so let’s not give up all hope just yet –
and who knows when Jesus will come back? [only joking]

Posted by: mistah charley | Feb 25 2005 21:44 utc | 6

Population growth and resource exhaustion are driving our world out of equilibrium. In fact, no equilibrium theory can explain what is happening today. We are heading somewhere, but where we’re headed we don’t know. The question becomes: how does nature react? Will it grudgingly accept these transient changes, eventually forcing us back to a (new) equilibrium? Or does nature snap, breaking like the branch of a tree or exploding like an earthquake? And would we even notice the difference? And can we even do anything about it?

Posted by: aschweig | Feb 25 2005 22:02 utc | 7

It occurs to me that those who believe in things like Rapture, are committed to driving the Earth over the brink. A sustainable society is incompatible with their aims. Somehow I wish Pascal’s wager could work in reverse: “Jesus might come, but until then, I’ll work for a happy stable society for all.” But I guess that unless you are working for a catastrophe, you cannot be a true believer.

Posted by: aschweig | Feb 25 2005 22:13 utc | 8

An aging population and over-population can both be simply corrected by harvesting the elderly for protein, nutrients and minerals.
After all, you can’t make Soylent Green out of thin air.
If each of us only ate just one other person, we’d still halve this population problem overnight!

Posted by: Eat the Rich, the Poor r2 skinny | Feb 25 2005 22:40 utc | 9

Does anybody really believe that the Bush program of abstinance against AIDs infection in Africa is religion driven?
as crazy as they seem, i believe that these anti-contraception views ARE religion-driven –
see the film “monty python’s the meaning of life” for a full explication of the implications of “every sperm is sacred”
it is wrong to assume that bush is always dishonest – sometimes he is purely stupid, sometimes he is genuinely psychotic – and that goes double for those who voluntarily align themselves with him

Posted by: mistah charley | Feb 25 2005 23:25 utc | 10

deanander
heroic post.
what “diamond” book? And whhat’s the one to read about “agribusiness”?

Posted by: slothrop | Feb 26 2005 1:33 utc | 11

Eat the Rich, the Poor r2 skinny
I guess vegetarians will just have to eat American Republicans then. They’re the closest thing to vegetables you’re going to get, unless you’re fond of Swedes or partial to the population of Brussels.

Posted by: Edward G. Robinson | Feb 26 2005 1:47 utc | 12

@ Slothrop:
The Author’s name is Jared Diamond.
His first book, Guns Germs and Steel won a Pulitzer in 1999. Has a lot about grains in it. I imagine DeA is talking about the second out this year. Haven’t read that yet.
I’d read both in order, cause I doubt the second could match the first.
The first is a real mind blower.

Posted by: Groucho | Feb 26 2005 2:06 utc | 13

@Groucho: the second one blows away the first.
@slothrop… OK, where do we start… [quickly condenses the reading list to “canonical” titles]… Jared Diamond, Guns Germs and Steel followed by Collapse. If you read Collapse, then you probably don’t need to read Clive Ponting’s earlier, fascinating book A Green History of the World, though I think the two go very well together. Ponting is a broad-brush painter, Diamond goes for the detailed, specific research. I am forever indebted to Ponting for “the ratchet effect,” which Diamond explicates in far more scholarly detail. Ponting dwells far more seriously on the great C19 hyperexploitation of species in the N hemi. I should warn, perhaps, that Diamond’s 2nd volume may make a political animal crazy in the final chapters 🙂 but this does not vitiate in any way the force or accuracy of his narrative generally.
I assume that the peak oil literature is available and well known enough that no reading guide is needed, but Deffeyes’ book is “the one” imho — his background as an oil company petrogeologist makes it a far more interesting read than most. On climate change, the IPCC papers are the primary source, with additional info from the insurance sector on average storm damage claims per annum etc. Books like The Heat is On imho merely attempt to popularise the original research, and so far no one has done this as successfully as Deffeyes did for peak oil. The cutting-edge research is not yet in book form and is mostly online. Photographic evidence of glacier retreat, for example, is building up like a relentless drumbeat. [BTW, did I mention that the primary source of agricultural water for most of the world is lake, river and stream water fed by glaciers and snowcaps in their seasonal melt? Lose the icecaps entirely, and there’s no water in the river in summer. Watch the crops dry out and die….]
For residual and persistent toxicity in metropolitan populations (and surprising mobility and concentration of POPs and other perdurable toxins in remote populations), Our Stolen Future (despite the sensationalist title) is probably a good entry point. Declining sperm counts are one of many indicators it studies and attempts to graph. (BTW, perchlorate is now showing up in nontrivial concentrations in human milk, and the concentration is roughly indexed to the density of military bases around the affected population — google for “perchlorate breast milk military” to find many recent news clips. perchlorate exposure in infancy may produce mild retardation.) St Clair’s Been Brown So Long It Looked Like Green To Me is probably worth a read with its many American case studies and emphasis on environmental racism and the mechanisms of class and caste in environmental “sacrifice”. [Note also that elevated temps may increase the toxicity of certain forms of air and water pollution, increase the growth rate of algal blooms in nitrogen-contaminated coastal waters etc.]
On agriculture and food security — yikes — the literature is enormous and much of it is not gathered in book form but in journal and conference papers. Fatal Harvest (subtitle The Tragedy of Industrial Agriculture) is probably “the” book on the paradoxes, false economies and shoot-self-in-foot aspects of industrial ag. Manning’s book Against the Grain: How Agriculture Hijacked Civilisation is also imho an essential, and feminist economist Marilyn Waring (from NZ) touches on all these themes in her (imho great) Counting for Nothing, as does Christa Wichterich in The Globalised Woman — both authors make the connection between land policy, the destruction of subsistence farming, and the immiseration and impoverishment of women worldwide. Indian activists Arundhati Roy and Vandana Shiva are two of the most visible defenders of indigenous agriculture in the S Hemi. Jules Pretty’s Agri Culture is a personal favourite, exploring the false dichotomy between “landscape” and “agriculture”. I am a fan of E Ann Clark, a farmer and razor-sharp social commentarian in the US, but don’t know if I can call her work canonical 🙂 There are several good histories of the Enclosures of the 1600s, can’t riff one off top of head right now, maybe someone else can help here?
Mike Davis, James Howard Kunstler, Jane Jacobs pretty much cover the waterfront when it comes to American cities, the politics of, the economy of, the core/periphery relation with the surrounding countryside, etc. Mike has recently gone global with his book on slum cities.
Online and other media… The Suzuki Foundation does a lot of studying and publishing on “sustainability issues.” The Footprint Project offers an heroic attempt to model how many hectares of arable land are required to support each person on Earth based on various lifestyle options and choices. Lester Brown’s Worldwatch organisation has published indicators (agricultural productivity, river levels, potable water availability, salination, fossil fuel inputs per hectare, crop losses from pests, weather-related crop losses, etc) on a yearly basis for many years now. Various papers on sustainable ag (the long work of Jeavons in the 60’s and 70’s for example) offer the numbers on water use, fossil fuel use, pest-related losses and overall productivity per hectare of industrial vs sustainable/organic ag. The Victoria Transportation Policy Institute and the works of Mayer Hillman are probably good entry points into the mathematics of fossil-fuel based transport; UCS (though I have been very angry with them in the past for what I consider facile misrepresentations) publishes some good numbers on the energy math of various “consumer choices.” Canadian TV did a fairly good documentary, “The End of Suburbia” which covered a lot of ground (sketchily, as TV always does) in the peak oil territory. Rocky Mountain Institute (the Lovinses) does some decent research but I remain skeptical about their hydrogen fixation and their belief that wonder technologies will fix fundamentally broken paradigms like the private passenger automobile.
You could dedicate a 24 hour cable channel to this information and never run out of programming. Isn’t it interesting that no broadcaster ever does? [snark]
Isn’t it fascinating how well-meaning people in the West always want to donate solar ovens to “those people in the third world who are cutting down their trees for cooking fuel”? How about if we Westerners used solar ovens, so that we didn’t gobble quite so much oil, driving up the price of kero so that poor women in Africa and Asia can’t afford to cook with kero and have to go out and cut brush? but then we might discover that the time when you most want a good hot meal is when the sun isn’t effin’ shining 🙂 Honestly… sometimes you gotta wonder how this species ever got to the top of the food chain.
OK, enough Jeremiad. I think I’d better go into lurkmode for a while. definite sense of having exceeded my bandwidth quota, not to mention bumming everyone out for the weekend… [but I have to admit a nasty little thrill of satisfaction at seeing the Unadmirable Crichton recently quoted alongside Falwell and LeHaye on a rightwing religious fruitcake anti-enviro site. at last, Mikey is hangin’ with the company he deserves 🙂 ]

Posted by: DeAnander | Feb 26 2005 3:44 utc | 14

for the record – this is diamond’s fourth book, the first was the third chimpanzee and the second was why is sex fun?

Posted by: b real | Feb 26 2005 4:03 utc | 15

@DeA:
JC on a popsicle stick!
Keep on going;if you flesh your reviews out a little bit more, I can decide whether I want to read it, or maybe I don’t even have to read it at all.
So many books to read and so little time. And, unfortunately, I flunked out of Evelyn Woods.
I’ll get my library to buy Diamond’s second.
You folks have a good weekend.

Posted by: Groucho | Feb 26 2005 4:05 utc | 16

@B real:
I’ll probably buy #2 for my own account and risk.
Would probably scandalize the library matrons.
Does it have pictures?

Posted by: Groucho | Feb 26 2005 4:22 utc | 17

DeAnander, great posts. I agree with you, but I think one of the main mechanisms will be fertility reduction through environmental pollution. A while ago I read a study (sorry no link) that not only are spermcounts reduced through stress and pollution but also the qualtiy of the sperm, so the reproduction becomes more difficult. Then I also think those practices, though illegal and mostly in China and India, of gender selection made possible through modern technology will have an effect. In both countries girl fetuses are often abortet and there is a disproportionat male population growing. The way nature organized this reproduction business, men can basically have unlimited children, however women can at best have them ever nine month, so having a bigger male than female will have a limiting effect. I do not agree with what is being done, but I think it will have an effect. And then yes there are epidemics and war. It will not be just Aids, but I think there will be new ones like the Avian flue until population density will be reduced and the transfer of diseases will be more difficult again. If I remember correctly Skinner predicted that from his experiments with mice and at times it looks as if humans are copying the mice.
Well, I have to leave it at this, wish I could stay with the discussion, but I have to work today.

Posted by: Fran | Feb 26 2005 5:17 utc | 18

I wish I could remember where I just read this, but it was an argument that overpopulation was a myth because it’s been calculated that if you packed all the people on earth together standing up, shoulder to shoulder, they’d take up less space than (oh hell, I can’t remember) Chicago, maybe? Toledo? Anyway, therefore, Q.E.D., the idea that the earth is overpopulated is just silly!
Just where do you begin an argument agaist that form of “logic”?

Posted by: jexter | Feb 26 2005 5:43 utc | 19

DeA- wrote:
“There are several good histories of the Enclosures of the 1600s, can’t riff one off top of head right now, maybe someone else can help here?”
The Germinal work here is Carolyn Merchant’s “Death of Nature”. This is the Classic Work that gave birth to what became known as “Deep Ecology”.
I’m reading Jane Jacobs “Dark Ages Ahead”. Doubtless it would have been a far better work had she been younger when she wrote it. But at least she supplements Diamond’s relentless materialism. She lists 5 pillars of our culture that we depend on for stability. Yet all are in ominous state of decay:
1) Community & family (so tightly connected they cannot be considered separately)
2) Higher Ed.
3)Effective Practice of science & science-based technology
4) Taxes & govt. powers directly in touch w/needs & possibities
5)Self-policing by the learned professions.
#####
If, like me, you’ve wondered, since the ME came onto our screens, if it was always such a wasteland, and if not, what happened – she repeats Diamond’s account of it’s complete devastation…..This rings bells very loudly here in xAm.
Once upon a time the Fertile Crescent was the Garden of Eden. It & the E. Med. was covered w/forests!! But to get more farmland & timber, & to satisfy the plaster industry’s demands for more wood fuel, the forests were cut faster than the could regenerate. Denuded valleys silted up, and intensified irrigation led to salt accumulations in the soil. Overgrazing by goats, allowing new growth no start, sealed the destruction. Diamond says damage became irreversible by 400b.c.e.
More Hopefully – On the Reclamation Front: 1) Google John Todd. He is state of the art. He has revived totally toxic ecosystems, esp. those involving water. 2) Google Bioneers – they have conferences/gatherings every year of people who are detoxifying the earth. Tapes are available. Some really beautiful work that I remember is being done using fungus to break down toxins & bring new life to thoroughly garbaged ecosystems. 3) Permaculture is probably the future of agriculture. 4) Of Course, Amory Lovins Major Domo in the Energy & Materials Conservation field. He has new report/plan out on national energy use & is not that worried that we can make the transition. I asked Jerome awhile ago, if he would do a rundown on this, but he hasn’t gotten around to it. Guess we’re on our own here; but it is available online & is the most optimistic & knowledgeable things around.
Taking all those together, if the earth’s pop. is reduced from it’s current ridiculous levels, I think we face fewer intractable technical problems than political ones.
To me, it’s this Goddamn Capitalist Counter-Reformation that’s leading us over the cliff & is only gaining steam as now the xDems seek to imitate the Repugs -not precisely, but it’ll be the Fascists & the Pirates. Dem. Party under Dean should use as it’s mantra “An echo, not a choice”.
I named this epoch Capitalist Counter-Reformation after my post the other night on the report to the Trilateral Commission in ’75 called “Crisis of Democracy”. This is the blueprint/bible of the Counter-Reformation. It’s the hysterical response by the elites to the ’60’s. Authors lament passing of the Truman Presidency when America could be run by Truman w/ a handful of Wall Street Lawyers & Finance guys; and seek to return to those days.

Posted by: jj | Feb 26 2005 6:13 utc | 20

@jexter, if I took the entire Rocky Mountain range and packed it into a single hill it would be about the same size as Mauna Loa. that doesn’t mean the Rockies are a tropical volcano 🙂 sorry, that’s kind of off-the-wall, but the “if you took” argument is off-the-wall itself in a big way.
that old “Stand on Zanzibar” thought experiment is just silly, always has been. those 6-and-counting billion people need to eat, drink, urinate and defecate. they want clothes, they want housing (they don’t want to stand their whole lives standing up, packed onto Zanzibar or into the environs of Chicago). they’d also like books, musical instruments, personal adornment, cooking utensils, furniture… it takes a certain hectarage of arable land to produce the food they want, it takes a certain hectarage of watershed to produce the water they need to drink and bathe in. it takes a certain hectarage to grow the fibre crops they need in order to be clothed, and the materials for the houses they need to live in. they have to get from somewhere the calories needed to heat and preserve food, to keep themselves warm in the winter, and so on.
I can pack a thousand head of steer onto a feedlot in central CA (and people do), but that doesn’t mean we don’t need an enormous spread of arable land somewhere to generate the feed they consume daily. just because they aren’t scattered about being happily free-range, doesn’t mean that extensive planetary surface area is not required to keep ’em alive. the planet is “overpopulated” when there isn’t enough hectarage to support the food/water needs of the people, or when the waste products of human activity threaten to poison/damage the biosystems on which human life depends. we’re way past that point (given current consumption patterns), so something has to give — despite any undergraduate thought experiments about how many idiots we can pack into a phone booth or a volkswagen.
damn, I was going to shut up. oops. going away now, shutting up now…

Posted by: DeAnander | Feb 26 2005 7:46 utc | 21

Well, Digby has another great post on the “Redneck Nation” (my words) and coupled with Joe Bageants Drink, Pray, Fuck, Fight (linked by beq), and digbys post election posts, it’s all pretty clear what the mentality driving this particular “Capitalist Moment” in American history is drunk on. And that moonshine is that ever so aged sin, gilt, redemtion (Calvinist) American exceptionalist psychological death wish writ never large enough to be satisfied with just rote carnage upon cultures far and wide — but must also engage the home and earth itself. If there was ever an expletive that could describe this history, it would indeed be MOTHERFUCKER.

Posted by: anna missed | Feb 26 2005 10:20 utc | 22

by all i’ve seen when travelling and here at home, the earth IS overpopulated and changes in echology are apparent for anyone to see. to see that you need just have your next vacations far from home outside expensive resorts or hotels. scientists should not be needed to make people aware.
the thing about population reduction is not *if* bot when, and how. from what i am aware there have been plans for population reduction at least since the 1960’s from the always prescient club of rome. before that, the british planned to depopulate asia and africa to make way for their empire. i vaguely suspect that these plans ares still operational. if one looks at WW1, WW2, the stalin massacres, china internecine fighting, the seemingly against-its-own-interests destructive antics of israel, continued wars and famine in africa with awareness that such plans exist/ed, what has been happening in the world for the last 100 or so years looks very different.
if i remember this right, the club of rome proposed that population should be reduced to a sustainable 1, at most 2 billion. the proposed methods of accomplishing this would be ‘benign genocide’ by keeping wars fueled, famine, sickness, arrested development of nations/regions outside areas of mainly european population.
why is it that the countries of the so-called 3rd world are “developing” since 50 or 100 years but today life quality and expectations are worse than in the 1970s ? i doubt that for example the people of congo are by themselves too stupid to look after their own interests and stop the constant wars. i also doubt heartily that common israelis would continue their course of agression against arabs for very long if and once the influence certain european interests is nullified. the same goes for the dynamic and hard-working peoples of latin america. the are not backward because they are stupid but because they are subject to constant strife and exploitation from the US and europe.
so again, depopulation is not a IF but a WHEN. depending on ambiental and political factors it will also be a question of HOW. the political elite may decide to act before nature and implement a ‘benign’ genocide which would give them some flexibility in deciding who survives, or (a scenario i favor but doubt is possible) the current elite is cut from power and people with wider loyalties try to implement a ‘soft landing’, or – worst case – business as usual continues and nature has it in its own way, perhaps not in the best interest of humans.
whatever the outcome we sure live in interesting times.
A good read is The Final Empire.

Posted by: name | Feb 26 2005 11:45 utc | 23

Another good book on the enclosure period and destruction of small village/communal life in England is :The Making of the English Working Class by E.P. Thompson. Haven’t read it since the ’70s, but it made a mark on me.

Posted by: Maxcrat | Feb 26 2005 12:25 utc | 24

Thanks to all for the amazing feedback! Many recommendations to keep in memory – and ideally to find the time to read!
jj – sorry, no time to read books at all! But if you provide a review/summary, we’ll be happy to publish it (or you can post it directly yourself on Le Speakeasy…)

Posted by: Jérôme | Feb 26 2005 15:41 utc | 25

9 bio? Frankly, they’re talking out of their asses here.
The current trends would lead us beyond the 10 bio mark. If the UN forecasts were accurate, we would never have come close to a yearly growth of 100 mio, yet we are there.
Then, of course, any demographic that takes the current business as usual, for 3rd world nations as well as industrialised nations, is also talking out of their asses, because there will be crises this century, and they will begin to hit before 2050.
As DeA mentioned, major epidemics will come, massive wars, and famines, everyone of them making the worst previous ones look like picnic. This is how population control has really worked in the past, and of course I’ve always knew that since population can’t grow forever, we’ll be back to this pretty soon. Mankind has had a free ride for far too long, but the time of punishment is coming, at long last, and it won’t be pretty.
I’ll be cynical, but as others hinted at, the problems of aging population are a non-starter. We know how it will end if the burden is unsustainable for the 20-60-y. The 60-75 may still be physically active and able to defend, but of course once you’re beyond 80/85, you can’t defeat a big 30-y old. And Jews and Tutsis were wiped out, including the ones who were physically able to defend themselves. The real question, imho, isn’t if Social Security should be privatised. In Western nations, it’s how to avoid mass extermination of the eldest classes when the shit hits the fan; this is the real challenge of the current aging of population, and this is why the whole pension / SS issue really matters. There is a real threat in the middle and long run, which is far more serious than bankrupting a hedge fund or SS going belly up.
China: I already said this in some Kos thread, Jérôme, but if we look at China, I think the gender imbalance will be the biggest issue there. It’s also worth noting that if you want population control or decrease, killing off the males is moronic; 1 male is enough to get hundreds of babies, assuming he’s got enough women. Killing off the women is the ultimate act of genocide – basically, what Fran said.
DeA: I have to get my hands on Collapse (3rd major one, but both Germs and Collapse are already sketched in “The third chimpanzee”) – and I can easily believe the last one tops the previous ones, given its subject. I amateurishly dabble with that kind of ideas and issues since 15 years, and I’ve come to the same conclusion: the fall follows very quickly the peak. I’ve also come to the conclusion that most of the time, the sharpest the rise, the quickest the fall (think Hitler and Napoleon for the most extreme examples), and the longest a society is high and imperially ruling, the deepest it will sink (notably because it would have had a long time to exhaust pretty much all the resources of its wide empire, with no backup in sight for a very long time).
I fully agree with Diamond’s worthwhile remark that “technology will save us” is pretty limited, since new technologies tend to create new problems that have to be fixed with newer technologies. Well, they’re not always as bad as those they fixed, but in the cases where you have a low-tech easy answer, use it (as with the starvation problem, which is touted by some as the reason for GM food; well, stupid, if people actually stopped breeding like rabbit, it would helpd; only if all else fails should you rely on new untested technology).
I also tend to think that you shouldn’t worry about these greedy elites making it work by killing half the planet and having the rest as slaves. Won’t work. Remember, *they* created most of the current mess; they’re terminally unable to make a sustainable system. And having 3 bio of slaves for a few tens of mio of fuckers still leaves far too many humans for the resources that are left, and still causes too much pollution – since such bastards will still have a pollution level way beyond the average American.
Another thing of note is that when there is a collapse, population sinks below the normally sustainable level, because the resources have been so hurt they take a long time to recover to the pre-population-boom levels, and also because of the sheer inertia of the collapse mechanism. For instance, if the stability level for mankind is 2 bio, then we’d be lucky if we ended up with 1.5 bio humans (I wouldn’t be surprised if we ended up with 1 bio in such a case). In fact, if the sustainability level is too low, the whole population may die even if the system would allow a small population to survive.
“Honestly… sometimes you gotta wonder how this species ever got to the top of the food chain.”
Purely accidental. Just a case of bad luck for Mother Earth. Thankfully for her, it looks like this will be over soon.
Last, DeA: pick Cassandra instead. You know you’re basically right and that this will come to pass.
As far as I’m concerned, I have actual very serious doubts about the survival of mankind beyond 2 centuries – and if you may think it’s long, I think the bulk of the species will have died before 2100, but I leave some time for the pockets of survivors to die off until there’s no one left.
Of course, I’m pretty dark about our chances since I basically only see one scenario which would see the species survive and be(marginally) prosperous in a few centuries.
B: Abstinence against AIDS: I don’t know. Maybe, if JP II wasn’t on the verge of death, we could ask him if he’s fine with having caused literally millions of deaths (as Palast said about Reagan, “another proof that only the good die young”).
Jexter: Drown the whole of mankind in Lake Erie, and the water will barely rise from a few inches.
Name: Sure, some had these fantasies. But WWI and WWII mostly killed off Europeans, so these ones weren’t planned genocides by wealthy elites. If they’d been smart, they would’ve sent the millions of Whiteys in a Mongol-like rampage throughout Asie, Africa and S America until all were dead and 2/3 of the planet was open to new colonization. Actually, war, massacres, genocides, epidemics and famines existed for so long that even without some shadowy group acting towards this goal, it would happen in a few decades. Of course, when you have nutcases in power that actively try to bring doom, it only makes things worse, and the outcome seems even darker than it would’ve been otherwise.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Feb 27 2005 0:37 utc | 26

too long of a page to read!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! duhhhhhhh

Posted by: Anonymous | Nov 15 2006 0:42 utc | 27