Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
January 25, 2005
No to Gonzales

Moon of Alabama wholeheartedly supports the call by dailyKos to oppose Gonzales’s nomination as AG. Torture is evil, it is illegal and an explicit proponent of torture should certainly not be AG of the US.

(The link to this post has not been provided to dailyKos. See below the fold for the earlier version of that post and the comments section for the discussion on whether we should have linked or not)

Sorry for the two very close posts, but DailyKos has posted a very strong call to oppose Gonzales’s nomination as AG and is asking for links from blogs that support that position.

My question is simple – do you agree to provide a link to our site for this call?

<update (Bernhard)>
It is a duty to be against Gonzales as AG, no matter how many trolls may come to this blog or whatever. Listen to your grandma’s story:

Another case involved a 73-year-old Iraqi woman who was captured by members of the Delta Force special unit and alleged that she was robbed of money and jewels before being confined for days without food or water — all in an effort to force her to disclose the location of her husband and son. Delta Force’s Task Force 20 was assigned to capture senior Iraqi officials.

She said she was also stripped and humiliated by a man who "straddled her . . . and attempted to ride her like a horse" before hitting her with a stick and placing it in her anus. The case, which attracted the attention of senior Iraqi officials and led to an inquiry by an unnamed member of the White House staff, was closed without a conclusion.
WaPo

Someone in the White House jacked off over the case file but could not come to a conclusion. Sad story indeed. Folks like Gonzales make you impotent and sick.

Same goes for Rice by the way and anybody else who facilitates this madness and of course for these self named Dems who endorse such people for cabinet posts in the Senate or House.
</update (Bernhard)>

Comments

Any Dem voting for Gonzales should be thrown out of the Democratic party.
Anything less is activly supporting torture as a political instrument.

Posted by: b | Jan 25 2005 22:06 utc | 1

Very simply … yes.

Posted by: SusanG | Jan 25 2005 22:08 utc | 2

Jerome, YES!
Good question Bernhard…….. this “confirmation” process seems just to be a “going through the motions” process.
Is the US unique in this “process”?

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Jan 25 2005 22:16 utc | 3

anyone not working to put this man on trial is on the wrong side of history/reality… thumbs up here </ducks>

Posted by: b real | Jan 25 2005 22:25 utc | 4

I would prefer you didn’t link, we are not that many people to begin with and I really really dread trolls. I still remember when they hit the Whiskey Bar.
What is to be gained by opposing Gonzales? He is a lawyer and does what his client asks. Do you think anyone else will be any different?

Posted by: dan of steele | Jan 25 2005 22:25 utc | 5

i’m with dan of steel on this
the scum gonzales will reign over the terrible years to come & the development & nourishing of our voices here is anc more defiant & more important than any symbolic rejection
the weight we all wear is still difficult & both sites here & le speakeasy need to be developed with care & prudence & too am thankful that by & large these sites have more or less excluded trolls

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jan 25 2005 22:32 utc | 6

dos – I am already linking daily to MoA at Kos…
b – I am off. Feel free to update the post and provide the link to Kos at any time if you are around and current strong support continues, otherwise I will check early in the morning how things stand.

Posted by: Jérôme | Jan 25 2005 22:33 utc | 7

Via the Rude Pundit and we know he is rude

Here’s what we know about Alberto Gonzales – what we know, not what we suspect, not what we infer: We know that George W. Bush was arrested for drunk driving in September 1976. We know that he lost his Maine driving privileges for nearly two years, restored in July 1978. We know that in 1978, with a suspended driver’s license, he began his run for the House of Representatives (and lost). We know that in 1996 Bush, when he was Governor of Texas, was called for jury duty in a drunken driving case (involving a stripper, which just makes it extra fun). We know that the judge, the prosecutor, and the stripper’s attorney have made written statements that Alberto Gonzales asked the judge, in private, to “consider” striking Bush from the jury pool, despite Bush’s public statements that he was willing to serve. We know that Gonzales was asked about this in his Senate confirmation hearing and that Gonzales stated he did not recall a private meeting with the judge, but that he did not “request” that Bush be taken out of consideration. In other words, we know that either Gonzales is lying or three other men, in separate statements, are lying. Who would a jury believe?
There are other things we know about Gonzales. Definite things. We know that Gonzales, as the White House counsel, sought to justify various specific methods of “interrogation” which had previously been thought of as torture, like causing physical pain and the now-famous waterboarding, and re-defining torture to exclude such methods. We know he commissioned the memo that explained this position. We know that Gonzales, before the Senate, had a chance to clearly repudiate these “ideas,” and declined to do so, and also offered the well-worn “do not recall” to many questions. We know that Gonzales sought to justify indefinite imprisonment without charge or rights of “detainees” at Guantanamo and elsewhere. We know that from 1995-1997 Gonzales gave then-Governor Bush at the very least less than complete information on prisoners facing execution in Texas.

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Jan 25 2005 22:41 utc | 8

My vote would be ‘Yes’. Gonzales is complicit in war crimes. Not to oppose his nomination is to be complicit in dragging the law – and lawyers – into the gutter and signalling that this is somehow OK or something to be accepted with mute resignation. Is dissent merely to be confined to futile grumbling and complaining or a series of ineffectual semantic debates akin to mental masturbation? When and where does your opposition to this evil start? If not now, when?

Posted by: Sic transit gloria USA | Jan 25 2005 22:48 utc | 9

sic
1969 somewhere on the plains of pleiku

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jan 25 2005 22:52 utc | 10

I vote “yes.” Democratic legislators, with a some noble exceptions, are wimping out on Gonzales, not to mention Rice. They need every encouragement, from every quarter, to learn how to lose on principle, like a true opposition party. That’s the only way they’ll earn anyone’s respect.
You can’t be a phoenix if you don’t go down in flames.

Posted by: ralphbon | Jan 25 2005 23:16 utc | 11

Jerome:
I’m with Dan and Giap.I think you are playing with fire, but you and B own the the real estate.

Posted by: FlashHarry | Jan 25 2005 23:18 utc | 12

please – yes!
perhaps i should not have any say in the matter, since i have been mostly lurking and only sometimes commenting recently (although i have been reading billmon since his days at dkos and came here when the bar shut down).
but, since you asked… please don’t be afraid to suffer a very little bit of troll discomfort in order to stand up for what is right. when we allow ourselves to be silenced, the bullies have already won.
it is not even teargas or pepper spray… the trolls may come, but they can be ignored and then they will leave again.
please – yes!

Posted by: selise | Jan 25 2005 23:25 utc | 13

Maybe I don’t understand the “unintended consequences” but my gut says, Yes.

Posted by: beq | Jan 25 2005 23:32 utc | 14

I have a message to those that want the comfort of a little snug in the Whiskey Bar where they can chat away…….. oblivion to reality.
Bring on the trolls!!!!!!

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Jan 25 2005 23:37 utc | 15

It will be a sign for ourselves and for some in the blogiverse; it will definitely not change the course of events. They don’t give a shit about anybody’s opinion, and they impressively proved it when they disregarded more than 10 million people protesting against the invasion of Iraq.
So perhaps it is the same as with the man in the old story: “I keep crying out not because I want to change them any longer – it is that I don’t want to change.” I don’t know about the threat the trolls could pose, but if you think it will be manageable – why not show your/our true colours? The cause certainly deserves it.

Posted by: teuton | Jan 25 2005 23:38 utc | 16

I vote yes.
The trolls are like bad weather, if they come you deal with it but you can not let it discourage you from going outside.

Posted by: A swedish kind of death | Jan 25 2005 23:58 utc | 17

Only a lurker here, but I say no. Agreed everyone here despises Bush, but the democrats are no longer democrats, they’re all in it for themselves. Where would Bush be without the enabling dems the last four years. All they do is vote for anything he asks for, and all they get out of it is a laugh or smirk in their face. It’s a lost cause.

Posted by: terrorist lieberal craigb | Jan 26 2005 0:01 utc | 18

I vote yes

Posted by: possum | Jan 26 2005 0:53 utc | 19

I vote “no”.
Trolls degrade things. They see themselves as crusading saboteurs, and show no respect for the processes of exploration. We moles have a whole lot to do down here in the subsoil, and if people want to know what trolls can do to the tempo and texture of threads, they can find out by reading the threads at Atrios Eschaton .

Posted by: alabama | Jan 26 2005 1:41 utc | 20

no

Posted by: slothrop | Jan 26 2005 2:03 utc | 21

Have never found a blog with such interesting commentary threads, I think everyone puts a fair amount of time, thought, and themselves into it. Right to oppose Gonzales — in other ways. Prefer the cohesion & slow growth here.
So no.

Posted by: anna missed | Jan 26 2005 2:07 utc | 22

I vote No.
fuck the dems, fuck Kerry and fuck dailykos…

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Jan 26 2005 3:39 utc | 23

first they came for the terrorists….
then they came for the muslims….
then they came for the gays….
then they came for the french…
i vote yes. speak out in as many ways as possible. f#*k the trolls.

Posted by: catlady | Jan 26 2005 7:45 utc | 24

we could all just make a pact not to dialogue w/them. we cannot let our discomfort and fear of privacy hinder us from making a stand. what little inconvenience are some trolls ? we have not had sticks shoved up our anus.. yet. i say yes. Yes. YES. a little solidarity. besides we can sic Sic on them. he will chew them up and spit them out. a little fire in our bellies, plllease.
on the other hand , we can go down w/ the rest of civilization knowing we were silent,for the sake of our comfort here.

Posted by: annie | Jan 26 2005 9:08 utc | 25

I vote yes.
Ignore the trolls, they’ll go away if not fed. Just DO NOT FEED THEM. Ignore, not feed. Remember, trolls are generally emotionally underdeveloped adolescent males (even when they’re 50 …) and can be dealt with by failing to give them the sustenance required.
In any case, we’re a small and not very interesting target. Too many big words.
b: if it comes to needing cash to deal with bandwidth, don’t be afraid to rattle the tin. And maybe a note below the posting box saying “Don’t feed the trolls” would be good if it comes to it.

Posted by: Colman | Jan 26 2005 10:07 utc | 26

Many have made comments that relate reluctance to open this blog to trolls with cowardice and blissful ignorance. I really don’t think that is fair for many reasons. First of all many posters here are not US citizens and cannot do anything about the Gonzales appointment.
Then I think one must choose one’s battles wisely, it was not Gonzales that authorized torture, it was Bush and he needs to be held accountable for that. From what I am seeing Gonzales has done nothing more than any lawyer would for his client. He is not a key figure in the administration nor will he ever be. If he is refused confirmation then they will simply select another that will be exactly the same.
Those of us who live in the US can make the calls and send letters and faxes, that does not require advertising this blog site to neoconderthals (hat tip to De for a great label)
my $.02

Posted by: dan of steele | Jan 26 2005 11:06 utc | 27

You’ll find that most juristictions have something to say about lawyers aiding and abetting a crime. It’s generally considered bad form.
He is not doing what any lawyer would do for his client. Unless you mean any mafia lawyer, in which case you have a point. I don’t think it’s the one you meant to make though.

Posted by: Colman | Jan 26 2005 11:19 utc | 28

on every blog i visit up come the trolls,then the post that says don’t feed them,but someone always does.since we are a small community i say lets be the one that actually starves those SOB’s.

Posted by: onzaga | Jan 26 2005 11:21 utc | 29

Colman, I am pretty sure that r’giap would say that Gonzales is the “consigliere” to the Bush crime family.
Although it might seem a great idea to punish a lawyer for the sins of his client I don’t think it would work in real life.

Posted by: dan of steele | Jan 26 2005 11:40 utc | 30

The New York Times Editorial Board just came out against voting for Gonzales, and I’m glad they weren’t cowed by fear of angry letters.
Other blogs provide far lusher feeding ground for trolls, I think. Even if I’m wrong, J&B may decide their index fingers can withstand multiple impacts with the Delete key for a few days or weeks.

Posted by: ralphbon | Jan 26 2005 11:46 utc | 31

I vote no. I might feel better, or more righteous, with a yes vote, but is it really going to change anything regarding the Gonzales vote? A more effective use of my time is to write, phone and e-mail my two Senators about Gonzales, and then to get 10 friends, relatives,neighbors or acquaintances to do the same. And to get their relatives, neighbors, friends to do the same. Flooding the Senate with our views would be more effective.

Posted by: maxcrat | Jan 26 2005 11:56 utc | 32

Well, Kos is “no longer updating” the list, so the issue appears moot.

Posted by: ralphbon | Jan 26 2005 12:01 utc | 33

No dan, you punish them for their own crimes: failing to advise their client that their plan was criminal and morally abhorrent and then failing to resign when the client didn’t take their advice. Oh, and failing to report the crime to the appropriate authorities.
For this he should be punished.
Aiding and abetting the rape and torture of children for fuck’s sake. But he shouldn’t be punished because he was just following orders?

Posted by: Colman | Jan 26 2005 12:06 utc | 34

I don’t think the present issue is if Gonzalez should be shipped to The Hague or not, it’s whether someone who declared the Geneva Conventions dead and who said it was fine and ok for the US to torture any foreigner they want is qualified to be Attorney General.
Somehow, my opinion is that someone who doesn’t understand the principles of the US Constitution, Bill of Rights and international laws that apply even to the US – they signed the friggin papers, after all – isn’t the best guy for the job. But that’s just my traitorous unamerican liberal commie opinion.
Though dan has a point that many here aren’t Americans, to begin with our 2 most excellent hosts, so I don’t know what can of weight that could have on US senators.
Of course, anything that can convince the LGF crowd that the EU is really out to get them is fine with me. Now, excuse me while I go back to my black helicopter 😉

Posted by: CluelessJoe | Jan 26 2005 13:31 utc | 35

I must admit, I’m really astounded by the “no’s.”
Really, really astounded.
I’m not trying to change anyone’s stance here, mind you, but just trying to understand it.
If I’m understanding the “No” reasoning, it mostly comes down to (a) avoidance of trolls; (b) it won’t be effective and lots of us aren’t Americans anyway, so those voices don’t matter; and (c) fuck the Democrats. If I’m missing a reason, forgive me.
As to (a) trolls: This fear of them seems to assume they will come here (which I doubt, we’re awfully small) and that we will be unable to handle them, either through ignoring or technical means (banning IP addresses). Wow. I mean, wow. I don’t mean to insult anyone here who doesn’t share my view, but … Wow. If we conceive of ourselves as a community of resistance and we can’t handle espousing our views because we don’t want to ignore a few comments, I am truly losing heart.
If we can’t stand up against torture, for God’s sake, because we might have to scroll through a few unpleasant comments, do we really believe ourselves capable of overt resistant acts? Of taking to the streets? Of perhaps risking jobs? Of risking arrest? Of actually laying our comparatively comfortable lives on the line? Well, I wouldn’t bet on it.
As to effectiveness/internationalism: Of course it’s not going to make a difference. That’s not the point. If we are only going to invest in acts/statements that are going to affect the outcome here, we might as well give it up. The point is to register a small, probably unheard voice of resistance … not as Americans, but as connected human beings speaking out against inhumanity. It has nothing to do with effectiveness or whether some of us have a right to speak out or not depending on our nationality.
We are all human beings, registering our feeble unacceptance of treating other human beings as nothing but pieces of meat in a game of hegemony and imperialism.
Why does it seem so simple to me and so complex to the rest of you?
This has really made me doubt myself. I respect all of you so much for your erudition, and this seemed so “no brainer” to me … You see something wrong, you speak out in whatever venue you have, whether it works or not, whether it’s inconvenient or not.
As to (c) — fuck the Democrats, Kos, Kerry — I really don’t see being anti-torture as a Kerry/Kos/Dem issue. It’s a human issue. As I said, we speak out as humans against violations of human dignity. This has nothing to do with political parties or political candidates or blogs with an agenda.
Truly, I don’t mean to offend anyone, but I’m really worried about my mind set here compared with the rest of you. So I guess I’m left repeating:
Why does it seem so simple to me and so complex to the rest of you?

Posted by: SusanG | Jan 26 2005 13:58 utc | 36

SusanG, the individual speaker is not the thread or the chatroom. The barfly is not the bar–a scene for differences of opinion even on the subject of Gonzales. Though we may all agree, for example, that Gonzales is bad news, we don’t all agree that speaking out against him is the best way to respond to his appointment–not, at least, if I’ve understood dan of steele correctly. This being so, wouldn’t the site, by signing a petition, convey a false impression of unanimity to the readers of that petition?

Posted by: alabama | Jan 26 2005 15:07 utc | 37

what SusanG said, and Clueless Joe before her: if there’s ‘no point’ to opposing things, why are we here (at MoA)? Just to talk about our feelings and engage in scholarly debate? It’s all just intellectual masturbation if it isn’t meant to lead to any results. I’m not so naive to believe we can change the world with our 120-something voices, but it has to start somewhere. Given time, dripping water wears away stone.

Posted by: kat | Jan 26 2005 15:51 utc | 38

BRIAN: Are you the Judean People’s Front?
REG: Fuck off!
BRIAN: What?
REG: Judean People’s Front. We’re the People’s Front of Judea! Judean People’s Front. Cawk.
FRANCIS: Wankers.
BRIAN: Can I… join your group?
REG: No. Piss off.
BRIAN: I didn’t want to sell this stuff. It’s only a job. I hate the Romans as much as anybody.
PEOPLE’S FRONT OF JUDEA: Shhhh. Shhhh. Shhh. Shh. Shhhh.
REG: Schtum.
JUDITH: Are you sure?
BRIAN: Oh, dead sure. I hate the Romans already.
REG: Listen. If you really wanted to join the P.F.J., you’d have to really hate the Romans.
BRIAN: I do!
REG: Oh, yeah? How much?
BRIAN: A lot!
REG: Right. You’re in. Listen. The only people we hate more than the Romans are the fucking Judean People’s Front.
P.F.J.: Yeah…
JUDITH: Splitters.
P.F.J.: Splitters…
FRANCIS: And the Judean Popular People’s Front.
P.F.J.: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Splitters. Splitters…
LORETTA: And the People’s Front of Judea.
P.F.J.: Yeah. Splitters. Splitters…
REG: What?
LORETTA: The People’s Front of Judea. Splitters.
REG: We’re the People’s Front of Judea!
LORETTA: Oh. I thought we were the Popular Front.
REG: People’s Front! C-huh.
FRANCIS: Whatever happened to the Popular Front, Reg?
REG: He’s over there.
P.F.J.: Splitter!
(Monty Python, Life of Brian)

Posted by: pedro | Jan 26 2005 15:52 utc | 39

There is something to be learned from a rainstorm. When meeting with a sudden shower, you try not to get wet and run quickly along the road. But doing such things as passing under the eaves of houses, you still get wet. When you are resolved from the beginning, you will not be perplexed, though you still get the same soaking.
–Hagakure–
I would be tremendously sad to see this place shat upon and ruined. Even when I post in hopes of discussing something and no one replies, my respect for what we make here is such that I take that as a lesson. I value it. And this is one of only two such places for me on the internet.
….Right now the Prez is promising that we have “progress in our time” and I am here for my sanity and to remember that there are kinds of progress I value. I like how clean and dry it is here…
But we WILL get the same soaking either way. I am here to train myself in discourse, in acting with words. And we are challenged every day to identify ourselves and what side we are on. Yes, it might destroy this community if we end up knee deep in trolls. But our entire political discourse is knee deep already, and I know I need to be ready to wade through it from time to time.
The issue of linking on KOS may be moot, but how we mean to actually fight with words is our issue everyday. Would it help to link on Kos?
Yes, because it will force us to learn how to protect our discussions actively.
Yes, because accepting Gonzales is like stamping “GANGSTERS” on the forehead of the government.
Yes, because we are alive and fertile, and if they cut off one head we will grow back two.

Posted by: Citizen | Jan 26 2005 15:57 utc | 40

Well, I had posted a comment a couple of hours ago to explain my change to the “visible” part of the post, but it is somehow gone, so let me start again.
As you can guess, I am fully with SusanG, CP, Colman and the others that have weighted in forcefully for the “yes”. However, as I had requested a popular vote, I must stand by it, and the expressed “yes”, while in majority, is not (sadly, in my view) overwhelming. So, as a compromise, I have changed the post to an unambiguous message of support, but I have not communicated it to Kos, which, conveniently enough, is not updating his lists anymore.
Nothing prevents individual members here who are also members of dKos to post a link over there or put up a diary or a comment on the topic, but I will not do it myself.
As far as I am concerned, I don’t care about trolls. I doubt that they would find MoA an sustainable environment for them; I have been linking to MoA from Kos almost on a daily basis for the last month, including, recently, some very visible posts, and the only result has been to bring in new commenters or bring back old Billmon hands who did not know about the site, so I am unrepentant.
If and when trolls come, we will deal with them – to be frank I don’t see how THEY would deal with a salvo from [barfly name deleted pour ne pas faire de jaloux] tearing them to pieces – so I am unrepentant.
And to clear things up – we HAVE to take a public stand against torture. Anything less would be wowardly.

Posted by: Jérôme | Jan 26 2005 16:07 utc | 41

jérôme
wowardly? – that’s a good word yve found
& i think it is clear that we all here oppose gonzales & i presume al of us in one way or another in our lives expresses that fully
& in any case i think you & b are gernerous to open the question to all the community
so once again, remerciements

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jan 26 2005 16:14 utc | 42

susan g/sic gloria/kat
my no was – not to gonzales – clearly i think he is a criminal & party to criminal acts & in a proper world he would be before a tribunal – i imagine everyone else here is opposed to him & condi & the rest of their criminal gang
perhaps i was being twee as sic gloria inferred – but as a community we are growing slowly – the discussions while taking place in almost always urgent situations – are for the most part considered – there is no i here – it is in one way or another a we
& i’m sad that sic gloria can infer that there are masturbatory practices – i think otherwise – absolutely so – & even when i argue with people here – i never question their private/public commitment to changing the world we are currently living in
citizen’s point is taken as is jérôme’s – but it is a fragile thing we share – the demands of even such a community as ours is one of refinement – & i feel that refinement leads to more correct practices in our life outside this forum
i know sic maybe in iraq – but it is not the only front – there are many – iraq is the most important at this time because the crimes being committed against them are happenign while we talk but to imagine that talk is just that is for me naive – & hints that our political lives exist only here – which i think is very far from the case
yes i suppose i am scared of trolls soiling the space simply because in our community there are sufficient differences for us to need to express those differences violently sometime while being conscient of our duty to one another – & for me there is that duty

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jan 26 2005 16:30 utc | 43

I guess I don’t care one way or the other. All good things must pass. MoA’s already too busy. I like the mental masturbation and reading ideas which inspire me to take the extra time to explain to family and others that yes, there is torture. Just look! In that sense, sic transit, I do my little proselityzing, my little bit of praxis.
As for trolls, when you really consider the possibility, how many are going to muddle through a slothrop post looking for the payoff of outrage? Not many, I’d guess.
Also, since we’re on the meta-thing, it’d be nice to have one or two bright lights here offer homepage posts now and then. Just a thought.

Posted by: slothrop | Jan 26 2005 16:57 utc | 44

Jérôme, surely it’s not wrong to see your fellow barflies as warm, furry, peace-loving creatures who’d rather not tear trolls to pieces (because it’s so demeaning), and who’d rather tear other barflies to pieces (because it’s so exhilarating). Nor is this preference, in my view, an “elitist” one; it’s just a bit “parochial” (speaking as one who prefers the atmosphere of the local bar).

Posted by: alabama | Jan 26 2005 17:01 utc | 45

if gonzales & rice do get greenlighted it is important that there be spontaneous demos & protests & direct actions by the us citizenry to send a resounding msg to these idiotlogues who deem lies & torture as business as usual. global actions would be helpful too. i give the second bush term less than two yrs of existence, maybe less if enough people who still retain their sanity/humanity make it a priority to stop feeding their own fears and work together to stop this culture of death in its tracks.

Posted by: b real | Jan 26 2005 17:42 utc | 46

b real,
Rice just got greenlighted, 85-13.

Posted by: SusanG | Jan 26 2005 17:51 utc | 47

I’ve been listening to both sides carefully, feeling sympathy with both. but I think Citizen’s argument has swayed me — we get soaked no matter what.
the ugliness is out there and we can’t hope to keep it at arms’ length. I want to keep some part of my life sane and decent — and yet my electricity comes from the Filth Industry, my home is full of plastics, it’s hard to avoid buying stuff made by slave labour, I can’t preserve any pure, untouched space in my life from the “trolls” of the corrupt culture around me. so maybe all I can do is say No…
anyway it is too late to vote, I suppose, and it took me too long to think about it, but am currently thinking that going on record is the better thing to do… much as I do want to preserve some sane and decent space free from the free-ranging trollery of our times.

Posted by: DeAnander | Jan 26 2005 18:21 utc | 48

In re Gonzales: An interesting approach. GOA (Gun Owners of America) is unhappy with the choice. Link.

“If your Senators are willing to back a torture supporter, call them up and tell them to oppose Gonzales on the basis that he’s a ‘gun-grabber.’ Be sure to mention that GOA is unhappy with him. If we can raise concerns in the Republican caucus, Gonzales might suddenly have a nanny problem.”

Posted by: beq | Jan 26 2005 18:37 utc | 49

I’m reminded of a story, a dear friends father told me about a group of men standing on a street corner in 1940’s Detroit. As the men, one of which was my friends Dad, stood there, a car pulled up to the curb, a white man leaned out the window and shouted “Whore!” to a woman who happened to be walking across the street nearby. Outraged that this (white) man would come into their neigborhood and make such an insulting public exclaimation, the men gave chase in short order, in my friends dads car. As told to me, in their vigilante zeal, the men failed to consider the fact that they, themselves, perhaps had drank a little to much that night, for such a fit of chivalrous work. And consequentially, after a very short chase, they crashed their car on a fire plug, and were hauled downtown by the police. Late into the night as the men were finally leaving the police station, they saw the same woman whom they sought so heroically to defend, being dragged kickking and screaming into the station — as they later found out, to be booked on, you guessed it, prostitution.

Posted by: anna missed | Jan 26 2005 20:25 utc | 50

So anna missed, perhaps the moral of your story is that the people being tortured probably deserve it, eh? Best not bother about them in that case, you’re quite right. Better to sit here producing an endless supply of waffles and kidding yourselves that you’re all revolutionaries with the most moral and perfectly thought out of political principles. Just like the ‘unarmed sleeper cells’ in Fallujah, a body of ‘inactive activists’ poses a really potent threat to the malefactors.
Not.

Posted by: Not fond of yellow | Jan 26 2005 21:28 utc | 51

not fond of yellow
why dont you just go fuck yourself – for all you’re offering

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jan 26 2005 21:38 utc | 52

Did I hit a nerve ? If the cap fits then wear it.

Posted by: Not fond of yellow | Jan 26 2005 21:47 utc | 53

offering/exchanging/communicating/speaking/dialogue all infer that someone has something to say other than snide asides that neither explain or elaborate
our community is fragile & given the current circumstances that does not surprise me – but to mistake that fragility for inactivity – presumes so many things that only an asshole would articulate it
the effort that many people put here is obviouslly wasted on deadshit like you
discussion closed

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jan 26 2005 22:24 utc | 54

I didn’t even vote because I assumed that the people who deal with the logistics of the site would ultimate decide how they wanted this issue to go.
Those who would have to deal with the trolls, in other words, could decide how much that was an issue to them. if they showed up, they wouldn’t stay long anyway.
On the other hand, after spending much time and energy trying to convince my congress/senators to vote against the invasion of Iraq, I have little faith, anymore, in the ability to stop the trainwreck.
I’m on this board a lot some days, other days not too much. I wouldn’t think my vote should have as much weight as the people who have to be here to administer the site, and for future reference on any such issue…that’s my vote.

Posted by: fauxreal | Jan 26 2005 22:58 utc | 55

R’giap,
Thanks for your appreciation of both the refinement and the toughness we need here.

Posted by: Citizen | Jan 26 2005 23:01 utc | 56

what was Kos’s position on Rice’s nomination?

Posted by: dk | Jan 26 2005 23:24 utc | 57

As we all of us here, most intimately, collectively, growing as we are together like a fragile plant or a delicate bud threatened by hoar frost, as we huddle here facing the most cataclysmic, terrible, blood soaked times humanity has ever known, the urgency I feel, the rage at this immoral, unjust behemoth that is rolling along crushing all in its rapacious and cruel advance, as we here, this band of us, this noble experiment, this collection of seekers after just the perfect quotation or the teasing out of an obscure footnote, as we each of try, in our own individual yet connected ways to introduce once more to the light the literary works of old, dead white men, I think that there is nothing more important than that we, any of us, here, growing as we are in all our fragility yet connected for all time by our revulsion to and detestation of, these horrible, horrible things that we all rage here about, I think there is nothing more important for us to do than to demonstrate our eclectic reading, the extent to which, indubitably, our thoughts, our perceptions, the very codes we live by, the sacred political philosophies we hold most precious, have been forged and formed in the furnace of dusty old libraries and in solitude in our own rooms as we wrestled with dull tomes written by men (and, in deference to the tender sex, occasionally, with very little assistance from men, by women), who have poured their minds into confronting some of the most pressing, urgent, crucial questions of our age. Or, to be more exact, of the 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries. It is essential that we, us here, this pilgrim band of souls we are, be adequately equipped to understand the complexities of these discussions, so that should any of us happen to find ourselves transported back – and no doubt such a thing is perfectly feasible given the ruthless and demonic machinations of the Bush junta in all its Satanic ferocity – should any of us find ourselves transported back to the 16th, 17th, 18th 19th or early 20th centuries they will be able to understand the key philosophical questions of the day and perhaps gain admittance to the elegant soirées where fine minds probe such issues. I think it was Rousseau who once said (or it might have been Sartre, or Durkheim, or Althusser, or perhaps it was Jacques Derrida – or Hobbes), “Please may I have some Camembert?” on the occasion of entering a small shop in Paris. Which is to assure, and reassure all here who are a part of this precious, delicate, fragile, community that these great men, these great dead white men, were unafraid to face the world and go down into the streets and demand – politely of course, and with the requisite amount of capital on hand to facilitate a smooth and mutually satisfying transaction between frommagerie and éminence grise – cheese. I think it is vital that as we grow here we pay respect to each other. I understand that there are those here, for instance, who might prefer Brie, or Stilton, or Wisconsin Port Salut or even the humble Cheddar. I do not reject their right to favor those cheeses and while I might disagree violently, in a manner of speaking, with their selection of other brands I will fight, in the manner of Voltaire, for their right to choose them, provided of course that they have the wherewithal to do so and do not intend committing any criminal act or invite unwelcome attentions from the authorities upon themselves and all who associate with them, even in as loose an association as this burgeoning, blossoming, tender, delicate community of name-droppers, quote hurlers, chapter and verse preachers and hair splitters. And above all, no matter what the beauty and the benefits of Edvard Grieg’s Peer Gynt Suite are – and we can discourse another day on how Grieg’s music perhaps unfairly eclipsed Ibsen’s literary accomplishment – we don’t want anything to do with trolls. A community such as ours, a growing, living, fragile itsy-bitsy potpourri of weak and delicate minds that are – and I disparage no individual here – unequipped to trade quotations about old dead white men – is ill prepared to venture forth and make, valid, honest criticism about issues of contemporary relevance and actually take steps to register displeasure at the appointment to high office, anywhere, of the architects of policies bringing sodomy, rape, beatings, humiliation and excruciatingly painful mind ripping torture to tens of thousands around the globe. While we have none of us succeeded in deciding whether a revolutionary vanguard is essential to our development here, and if so whether there should be a membership criterion like an oral examination on familiarity with the seminal works of elderly, deceased unpigmented homo sapiens of the male gender, or if a guerrilla foci – a hypothetical one I hasten to add – is a better means of ensuring collective indoctrination here (and there has been absolutely no discussion of who will sell the party newssheet, if we ever agree that such a means of spreading our message is desirable, or whether vendors should receive financial emoluments or posting privileges that allow them to omit mentioning Marx or Descartes or Camillo Torres or Ivan Illich or Noam Chomsky, an idea that makes me shudder with revulsion but which may prove to have its attractions to some of the hoi polloi), while we have not succeeded in creating a group mindset and perhaps, at a later stage, designed a uniform that all who surf in here can wear while posting, I think that any attempts to engage with the real world and do anything positive in it are ingredients for a recipe for disaster. We are secret rebels and if we are to maintain our community of fragile, burgeoning, blossoming, growing comrades, united by our abhorrence of the bloody evils stalking the earth and crushing the innocent underfoot as their screams and cries of death and despair pierce the very marrow of our bones it behoves us all to do absolutely nothing about it. Except, of course, find an apposite quotation.

Posted by: Forgetting cant | Jan 26 2005 23:40 utc | 58

@Forgetting cant:
That is precious prose, indeed, fuckhead.

Posted by: Emily Dickinson | Jan 26 2005 23:47 utc | 59

@ “forgetting cant” a/k/a r-giap: that was great. Your contributions are one of the reasons I love this place.

Posted by: maxcrat | Jan 26 2005 23:55 utc | 60

forgetting cant/yellow/whatever
lucid nonsense
you interpret nothing. you comprehend nothing. you give nothing
nothing to say. nothing to be said

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jan 26 2005 23:58 utc | 61

@maxcrat
not i

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jan 27 2005 0:01 utc | 62

captious certainly, but it does show a certain literary skill and verve… it also glibly assumes that all the people talking here don’t do anything else in the rest of their time about All This Stuff; and it ignores what some of the older folks among us may have done, and have been doing, most of their lives in opposition to All This Stuff. weak assumptions. many folks here are engaged with the real world. for some MoA may be a momentary retreat or refuge from the stress of engaging every day with hostile political opponents — whether strangers or family or colleagues — a place to recharge the batteries before the next day’s battle. for others it may be merely entertaining. no way to tell. certainly unwise to assume.
it’s always easy (especially in the anti-intellectual hothouse of American culture) to mock anyone who is widely read, has scholarly pretensions, gives a rat’s about literature, etc — to sneer at ideas, theory, philosophy, debate, and demand Action, Action.
this is one way that BushCo works the house. the rant above, while cleverer — almost Pythonesque at moments — imho fits generally into the same category as the carefully crafted soundbite about “Latte-drinking, sushi-eating, Volvo-driving liberals.” except that it seems more closely targeted, more personally vindictive or vituperative.
in fact, I’d call it a bloody brilliant bit of trolling 🙂

Posted by: DeAnander | Jan 27 2005 0:17 utc | 63

So suddenly a leftwing troll appears. Funny thing it happens just as there is a discussion about rightwing trolls. Some of the regulars trying to prove a point? You´ve had your fun, come out come out whoever you are.
RGiap:
Is not parody a really true form of appreciation? I fund it funny and was not surprised that maxcrat thought you wrote it yourself (though I didn´t think so).
Anyway, I voted yes without really stating my reasons. I had reasons both pro and con. Pro: registering dissent, though we do it here every other day, so it would just be a question of slightly raising the dissent registering. Con: attracting trolls, though as our bar is situated in the middle of a hugh field anybody can walk in including trolls, so it would just raise the troll risk slightly. And if the trolls walk in, J or b can train the carnivoreus sheep to attack them as long as they look the same (has the same IP). Ok, I am not that good at analogies.
In the end I voted yes for no better reason than that fear is the little mindkiller. I fully understand those that voted no.

Posted by: A swedish kind of death | Jan 27 2005 0:31 utc | 64

Wow.
Forgetting Cant must have spent a lot of time on that parody, leading me to believe he/she must feel very strongly about the issue.
But apparently not strongly enough to use his/her real pseudonym — yes, we’re getting surreal here — to engage in open and honest discussion and disagreement.

Posted by: SusanG | Jan 27 2005 0:31 utc | 65

@r-giap, DeA, et al: Ok, sorry. But I mistook it for something gently humorous.

Posted by: maxcrat | Jan 27 2005 0:32 utc | 66

Leave it to MoA to have gifted trolls…

Posted by: beq | Jan 27 2005 0:33 utc | 67

@beq:
🙂

Posted by: A swedish kind of death | Jan 27 2005 0:36 utc | 68

By the way, we have a swedish proverb that goes (literally but translated): “If you talk about the trolls, they will be standing in your vestibule”. Seldom does that proverb fit as snuggly as on this thread.

Posted by: A swedish kind of death | Jan 27 2005 0:39 utc | 69

and so it began

Posted by: dk | Jan 27 2005 0:39 utc | 70

@maxcrat well maybe. didn’t read very gently to me… but intent can be hard to infer from plain text.

Posted by: DeAnander | Jan 27 2005 1:14 utc | 71

remembereringgiap, I’d take Forgetting cant over his ever-adored Noam Chomsky any day of the year (and this is my belated reply to your question of earlier today). Why would I do this? Because Forgetting cant adorns his brain-dead moral certainty and his total command of the truth with a lively sense of humor–something that Chomsky can’t do at all. Questions and errors–the rock and loam of my Eden–are simply not there for these guys.
Any troll that performs as well as Forgetting cant is a welcome troll indeed. But the notion that this place might become a magnet for hard-working comedians–the Comedy Central of the internet–is a mere delusion of grandeur.

Posted by: alabama | Jan 27 2005 1:26 utc | 72

And My firm knows who did it, and can prove it textually.
But for definitive proof, as in a court of law, we would need management’s help to trace the posting back to it’s source.
I doubt that management will help my firm in this , as that would destroy all the illusions.
Lorenzo Valla
Senior Partne

Posted by: Valla, Spence, and Van Helsing, LLP | Jan 27 2005 1:42 utc | 73

Clouds come from time to time-
and bring men a chance to rest
from looking at the moon.

Posted by: Basho | Jan 27 2005 2:03 utc | 74

Yeah, he laughs at us now but he doesn’t know about my secret arsenal. Last month’s survey wasn’t just for fun, I needed to know how much ammo to order out of my Cheaper Than Dirt catalog. Oh, and that reminds me, I do in fact need your shirt and pants sizes by this friday or you will have to do with whatever uniforms are left over. And I am sorry to report I can no longer find a supplier willing to sell me large numbers of HK VP70s, so buy your own side arm or be content with the Glock 17s. I know, I know, they are so “law enforcement” but they are much cheaper and more durable. Oh, and DeAnander, that recoiless rifle you ordered just arrived this evening and, at least at first blush, it is friggin’ sweet. Finding shells will be a bitch, though.
“Happiness is a warm gun.” John Lennon.

Posted by: stoy | Jan 27 2005 2:05 utc | 75

All ripostes to forgetting cant smell like the swill of righteous idignation common among the lilywhite intellects who deign, in the happy safety of cyberspace, umbrage about the throatcutting adventures of their political masters, but are terrified to complain too loudly that someone might remove their work cube away from the window and from the relaxing view of the parking lot below. It is not you who wait in the putrified morgues to count what pieces of your sons and daughters are left to bury. It is not you who must now, under cover of “democracy,” …
eh, screw it. I was going to send as sic transit gloria usa, but I promised I wouldn’t that anymore.

Posted by: slothrop | Jan 27 2005 2:07 utc | 76

alabama
Because Chomsky doesn’t have a sense of humor? That’s the best you can do?

Posted by: slothrop | Jan 27 2005 2:11 utc | 77

I saw, I swear, Barsamian and Chomsky together and it was one fart joke after another. Crazy nuts, I tell ya.

Posted by: slothrop | Jan 27 2005 2:14 utc | 78

OT, but does anyone know if “Divine Secrets of the Ya-Ya Sisterhood” is(are?) any good b/c the chick I had kids with wants to watch it with me now.
Give me a call, I will be on the couch.
Thanks

Posted by: stoy | Jan 27 2005 2:15 utc | 79

Forgetting cant-
LOL!!!!!
(with no ill will implied…sometimes it’s good to have the giftie gie us…)

Posted by: fauxreal | Jan 27 2005 2:17 utc | 80

ô faureal, i’ve been insulted by experts & forgetiingcantnot fondwhatever is not amongst their number & if i prefer a laugh being the bookish fellow that i am i read sam beckett & a little dante
& while yr ordering stoy – i’ll take those five katushya rockets off your hand & trade you a few stingers of a certain vintage – but unfortunately they are hidden by my books & i can already hear the popular uprising in the streets below

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jan 27 2005 2:28 utc | 81

“hardworking comedians” – there’s a documentary film, on the verge of release, which consists of a number of comedians all telling versions of the same joke – the joke being, a family group of vaudevillians goes to a booking agent, he asks, “what do you do?”, some variety of obscene acts is described, he asks, “what do you call the act?”, and they reply, “the aristocrats”
and speaking of the intellectual heritage left us by dead european males, i consider myself one of them – with the minor exceptions that i am not european (though i am of european descent, and i have been to europe), and i am not dead yet – but time will take care of that
moon of alabama, as a successor to billmon’s whiskey bar, is a kind of pub – very few people spend ALL their time here, but it’s nice to drop in and drink from the cup of consensual reality (as we know it, hugh) – freedom, equality, and siblinghood are dear to the heart of the real person – “forgetting cant”, like the rest of us who read here and even sometimes write here, could have chosen some other way of spending those precious moments, which will never come again, and even mocking is a kind of compliment*
*yes, and someone who chases their spouse with a frying pan in hand shows that they want to be closer to them and have an impact on them

Posted by: mistah charley | Jan 27 2005 2:36 utc | 82

Edward Said:

It seems to me that unless we emphasize and maximize the spirit of cooperation and humanistic exchange-and here I do not speak simply of uninformed delight or of amateurish enthusiasm for the exotic but rather of profound existential commitment and labor on behalf of the other-we are going to end up superficially and stridently banging the drum for “our” culture in opposition to all the others.

I think, at the very least, this is what can be, and frequently is, accomplished here. Just suggest how such “existential commitment” should occur, sic transit gloria.

Posted by: slothrop | Jan 27 2005 2:38 utc | 83

deviating for one moment from the literary p*ssing contest I ask everyone, not just FCant: what’s to be done?
letter writing to local media? lobbying oblivious congresscritters? fly US flag upside down from front porch? form local freeway blogger group? yell at 85-year-old parents in futile attempt to connect them with Planet Reality? leave country so as to avoid paying taxes to support criminal regime? what’s to be done? I ask again. is it really time for armed revolt, civil war? not my favourite way to resolve dispute, isn’t that what we loathe about the regime currently in power, that their way of disagreeing with other people is to shoot them?
I did all the anti war demos in SF. marched in the rain. marched in the heat. didn’t get there by driving a car either. 140 mi round trip on public transit. donated to the blogsites that I found useful. mailed antiwar agitprop to every fence sitter I knew and some of the hawks as well. all futile, futile, futile… the march of folly went on regardless, with the whole world watching and unable to stop the bully from kicking the s**t out of the guy who was already down. and I saw people I know cheering as Baghdad burned.
what can we do that’s effective? where do we start (over) to force the US public to face the facts? do we just have to hunker down and wait for the crash? Fcant’s acidulous raving touches a nerve: surely every one of us must feel that we are not doing enough. but what should we be doing? trying to salvage what we can for our families, our local communities, defending ourselves from the grassroots upward? what can we do to touch the force field around that clique of swaggering, mutually-reinforcing psychotics running the show in DC? if the goddamn CIA can’t hold its own against these jokers, what can rank amateurs like me do to put a spoke in their wheel?
the problem with those of us who have read the various dead men and women of various colours is our horrific sense of deja vu. we know it has all happened before — as Sy’s source said to him informally, “Welcome to Stalingrad.” it happened before and no one could stop it. like one of those maddening adventure-games where you live out the same plotline over and over, desperately trying a new strategy at the point where you blow it, lose all your lives and get reincarnated at the Begin Game prompt. what strategy do we have that no one has had before us, that is somehow going to stop our modern Genghis Khan from rolling over Mesopotamia and Persia, destroying agriculture, burning libraries. depopulating whole cities, enslaving the survivors? Fcant is so sure of the moral turpitude of inaction — what actions are available to us that are gonna work any better than any other prior attempt to stop the war fever before millions die?
this is not a rhetorical question.

Posted by: DeAnander | Jan 27 2005 2:43 utc | 84

btw I have often found Chomsky’s writing humorous. it’s a dry humour, dry and rather pessimistic. unlike, oh, Blum who writes like a baseball bat — thump, thud, whack, hitting the reader over the head with his passionate anger. Blum I think we might be able to call “humourless” (oh, that paramount sin!) but Chomsky has a line in quiet sarcasm that makes him, for me, lighter reading than some.

Posted by: DeAnander | Jan 27 2005 2:49 utc | 85

@RG:
Remember your fragility.
And take the Glock away from Stoy before he blows his balls off.
Half the Washington DC police department are eunuchs because of that one.
And DA don’t need a recoiless rifle.
And don’t anyone end up in the sheriff’s picture frame(cant),while I’m gone.
And I am out of here, because you people are too fucking weird for me.

Posted by: FlashHarry | Jan 27 2005 2:51 utc | 86

deanander
I’m at a research I university and can help students try to find their way through the lies.
I’m not going to kill anybody. But I do hold friends and acquaintances politely hostage and recite poetry to them and urge them to stay and watch kieslowski films and birthday party videos w/ me.
What more?

Posted by: slothrop | Jan 27 2005 2:54 utc | 87

Don’t go too far, FlashHarry. We need the voice of sweet reason to save us from ourselves…..

Posted by: alabama | Jan 27 2005 3:03 utc | 88

Don’t go too far away, FlashHarry. We need the voice of sweet reason to save us from ourselves…..

Posted by: alabama | Jan 27 2005 3:05 utc | 89

This is bizarre. I posted my comment, and a spam-like placard materialized, asking me to purge my post of its malice and post it again. What might this be?

Posted by: alabama | Jan 27 2005 3:08 utc | 90

alabama
see what happens when you make fun of chomsky?

Posted by: slothrop | Jan 27 2005 3:15 utc | 91

slothrop, someday I’ll give you a duly diligent version of my take on Chomsky, but for the moment my brain is turning into sand…..

Posted by: alabama | Jan 27 2005 3:21 utc | 92

DeAnander asks what strategy do we have that no one has had before us…
maybe these factors will play a role: global connectivity, near real-time reporting, instant messaging, text messaging, cell phones, the world wide web, email, global mapping software, global positioning satellites, accessible & omnipresent digital media technologies, increased mobility, mass transportation, the power points are more centralized, broad access to books, increasing number of titles documenting & analyzing movements & revolutions & such across the planet throughout recorded history, recent proof that grassroots organizing can raise sizeable funds in a short period of time, 10 million or so people across the globe that were already pissed off enough to come out & voice their opposition before the current aggression officially commenced, “fragile” societies crucially dependant on being wired for economic, energy & communication access, majority of citizens do not produce their own food & henceforth reliant on outside distribution networks, majority of vehicles depend on fossil fuel, and i’m sure there are plenty of other advantages that we, at this moment in time, can use to our advantage.
i’ve had this notion stuck in my mind for the past couple of years that relentless mass demos have an important role to play, and i’m not thinking of bi-annual ufpj or answer events. the image of the entire world taking a visible and vociferous stand against the neofascists certainly would be stumbling block & give occasion for those perhaps intimidated, afraid or downright cynical to join in. who knows where that leads & what leaders will come forth? there’s only one way to find out.

Posted by: b real | Jan 27 2005 5:04 utc | 93

make that read “certainly would be road block”

Posted by: b real | Jan 27 2005 5:08 utc | 94

Any body have an emp device handy?

Posted by: stoy | Jan 27 2005 5:13 utc | 95

Actually, Flash Hank, “Fucking Weird” is our proper name:
Fucking Weird Moon of Alabama

Posted by: stoy | Jan 27 2005 5:15 utc | 96

Guess I shoulda stuck by the keyboard a little longer, lots already said, so I’ll only add this. The man to whom that story belonged, aside from the fact that he was a dead ringer for Muddy Waters — led quite an accomplished life by what little I remember. In WW2 he rose to the rank of colonel and was active in the (racial) equality movement within the army. Upon retirement he became very involved in the Detroit educational system, where he had a lasting and positive influence. When I first heard this story, I took it as a piece of (self-effacing) wisdom from someone who had some trench warfare under his belt.
I think what he was really trying to say in telling the story was to know your self, know your adversary, and above all chose your battles carefully. And if there is any moral to the story I suppose that would be it, if not avoid shooting ones own foot.
Personally, I grow ever more sarcastic about hitching my wagon to the Democrats (&the Dem blogs).Sure they’ll make a token effort ie. the Ohio vote, the conformation hearings, the war criticism, or whatever, paddling only hard enough to show that they are indeed paddling, while all the time flowing happily along backwards with the Republican current. And furthermore, it certainly won’t be the Democrats let alone the administration, or the MSM, that can or will muster the fortitude necessary to swim upstream against a current as ponderous as situtuation in Iraq presents. Givin the lack of any real political leadership or the dessimination of accurate information through an objective press where is the resistance to such an undertaking to be found? My guess is that burden has already been bequeathed, by no choice, to those of us that individually come together, with whatever we have, to say no. And to say no effectively it would seem, requires in some measure, precisely what is found here.

Posted by: anna missed | Jan 27 2005 7:22 utc | 97

I thought Forgetting veered between satire and insult. The overall effect was ..uncertain. It was quite funny – but not funny enough. Good satire or fun-making should love its object, if only because of the absurdity of humans. Like Giap’s beloved Beckett – one of the most hilarious writers ever.
DeA I think the ‘deja vu’ feeling you mention (“Welcome to Stalingrad”, another poster) is over-rated. Some elements are familiar, look worn, a ghastly scene that glows again after the Replay button has been hit.
But much of the situation today is new, different. It is the differences that need analysing. b real mentioned some. Others are: the total bought-media grip in the US (by extension, in other places as well) and the very real threat of massive nuclear annihilation. (In comparison for ex. with Germany, 1933.)
Just those two points show several things, one of which is that BushCo must be ousted (to keep it simple) internally. France, Sweden, just ex, others, cannot do anything and will not, everyone is appeasing, hoping for…who knows what. The ‘secret’ arm of the rest of the world (creating an economic meltdown in the US) is useless – rather like stealing your rapist’s wallet, it won’t improve the situation. Of course, the global economy and the vested interests of the elite(s), and their dependents, minions, workers, pensioners, etc. make for a situation so tangled it becomes difficult, and perhaps irrelevant, to analyse national interests. Add: While one may see the US as the gangsta on the block, the rest of the West is bloodstained and guilty – think of Yugoslavia, for ex. or even Iraq – sanctions.
The Democrats are bought and paid for, the worst kind of subservient lackeys, because they are fake, even if some of them may be naive innocents.
Court jesters, pliant servants, pompous yes men, muzzled functionaries occupy their given roles with honesty. The Democrats do not. This relates to the media lock-down, too.
I haven’t answered, have some ideas, post too long already.
Didn’t Billmon’s site have something at the top right, about The People.. .. The Popular Front.. or? I’ve forgotten. I have a faint after-image of a picture of a woman and child.

Posted by: Blackie | Jan 30 2005 17:03 utc | 98