Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
January 24, 2005
I am Not Sure

A posting from John Robb that currently spins through my mind though I am not sure yet if this is competely valid.

I am not sure why most people were surprised by Bush’s inaugural speech.  It contains the essence of what swept the Republicans to power, and what will keep them there.  What is it?  It is the last gasp of the idea of a "nation"  — a people with a common beliefs, origin, and history.  Bush merely pumped the idea that American nationalism was exceptional.

The problem is that we live in a market-world.  Our ability to compete effectively in these global markets determines our long-term success.  Muscular nation-states don’t do well in this environment.  They involve themselves in non-economic behavior that radically harms their ability to compete effectively.

Comments

Engelhardt’s piece is relevant here.

Posted by: slothrop | Jan 24 2005 19:18 utc | 1

The Robb quote here is a bit silly. Depends on whether one sees in ‘globalism’ an ‘interdependence’ or the usual exploitation of labor. If the latter, a global hegemon bringing recalcitrant states to heel will do just fine.

Posted by: slothrop | Jan 24 2005 19:23 utc | 2

The thought is different to me. The nation states are dissolving and are replaced by markets and market actors not only in the sense of selling cars, but also in acting as souvereign.
I some parts of the world this has happened before (banana states) but the trend is more globally now.
Privatizing souvereign tasks (prisons, defense) is in full swing and may end the nation states.
The US has already denied the Nation state as in concept of the Westphalian Piece by attacking Iraq without legitimzation and profiting are not either nation, US or Iraq, but the “markets”.

Posted by: b | Jan 24 2005 20:00 utc | 3

“The problem is that we live in a market world.” No, I don’t, at least not exclusively (don’t know about Mr. Robb). For sure, economics are important, but the application of economical thinking, and nothing but, to every conceivable aspect of life generates nothing but clowns and monsters. I’m afraid that with this remark, Robb uncritically reproduces a central tenet of Bushco’s worldview. Do we only have a right to live as long as we are productive? Is the poverty of large parts of the world population merely an advantage for the corporate raiders who benefit from low wages? Ridiculous – and scary.

Posted by: teuton | Jan 24 2005 20:00 utc | 4

The nation states are dissolving
Please elaborate, b.

Posted by: slothrop | Jan 24 2005 20:11 utc | 5

Seems to me two basic approaches regarding dissolution of modern state:
yes, based on historic trend of equalization of wage-rate
no, based on historic defense of elite accumulation in the core, which includes protectionism to avert the ligitimation crisis of elite accumulation, i.e., need to buy off the plebes.
Different variations of the latter analysis are more true than the view of the dissolution of the modern state.

Posted by: slothrop | Jan 24 2005 20:26 utc | 6

Slothrop: we’re in trouble indeed. Bush’s address has the arrogance of mad nationalism “We know best and will rule the world”, but there are also accents of insane revolutionary if not quasi-mystical leanings. Like the French revoltuionaries, then Napoléon, who wanted to rid Europe of the old monarchical regime. As Krugman (I think) noted in one of his books, the neo-cons are like the French in 1800; they intend to change the whole world, and no one thinks they’re that much into utopian delusions, and are constantly surprised at what they do. In such cases, I’m really at a loss to tell to which extent it’s nationalism gone crazy or it’s world revolution in progress. At least, with Lenin and Trotsky, you had a better idea – though Russian/Soviet nationalism was quite a factor, still. With Bush, I’m not so sure. Which of course reminds me of the other major examples of the mix of nationalism and exalted world-changing messianism, Hitler and his gang of thugs, who wanted to reshape mankind as a whole.
All this to say that I think Robb has a point in saying nation-states are over, but the question remains, to which extent is the US outburst a bad case of nationalism unchecked.
My guess that nation-state is over doesn’t come from market, though. It’s rather that we have underway the biggest example of annihilation of nation-state since a very long time in the form of the European Union. Make no mistake, if this eventually succeeds, the former nations that compose it will slowly dissolve into nothingness to be even less relevant than current US states.
Of course, there’s also the unescapable elephant in every living room, environment, which is a major reason why nation-states will have disappeared at the end of the century. Either mankind manages to have a global governance, a form of global decision-making that can force changes and behaviour upon unwilling people, or we’ll all bite the dust (in this case, I don’t mean that a more integrated form of transnational organisation will take over, since it may not, but then humans will die and nation-states will also be past history).
Oh, btw, this philyopain guy linked to in Robb’s comments should learn Latin, too. (of course, I have since a very long time my own version, but it’s pretty un-PC)

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Jan 24 2005 20:27 utc | 7

Also, Bush’s proto-fascism is wedded to economic domination, that’s partly why it’s a kind of fascism.
Another obvious function of nationalism is the mass distraction this accomplishes. People find the enemy in some ‘other’ who is not a class enemy.

Posted by: slothrop | Jan 24 2005 20:31 utc | 8

The nation states dissolve in several ways:
1.
Splitting into smaller nations (see new members of UN since 1991): Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Moldova, Slovenia, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Czech Republic, Slovak Republic, The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Serbia and Montenegro, Timor-Leste, Ukraine have been part of bigger blocks before. The “Nation of the Sowjet Union” dissolved into smaller states. One can argument this is justified (though Ukraine was part of Russia for some 300years) but where do you stop? On the level of language, tribe etc.? The nation concept dissolves at the end when nations continue splinter into ever smaller pieces.
2.
By giving up the souvereign might that is part of the nations definition.
Giving up to: market actors (privatize prisons etc.)
Giving up to: Superinstitutions (European union)
3.
By dissolving into totally “stateless” patches of land like some parts of Africa (Somalia)
Developing thoughts – thanks for your input

Posted by: b | Jan 24 2005 20:32 utc | 9

Make no mistake, if this eventually succeeds, the former nations that compose it will slowly dissolve into nothingness to be even less relevant than current US states.
No. EU merely comprises a largely economic federalism of industrialized states able to compete against u.s. and east asia. The remainder of the world will be the chattel needed to speed elite accumulation.
Also, interesting: EU may lack the solidarity necessary to compete when nationalism is needed to inspire imperialistic endeavors. EU may prove to politically pluralist to compete in the nastier pursuit of the exploitation of resources and labor.

Posted by: slothrop | Jan 24 2005 20:40 utc | 10

b
Elites require the state to assure what you call privatization. To be sure, the history of the modern state can largely be explained in this way: the state nothing else than the scope of socialized costs the capitalist class is unwilling to bear.
and b, there are always such costs…

Posted by: slothrop | Jan 24 2005 20:46 utc | 11

EU.
You all know I am Irish.
I am a totally committed member of the build the EU club. This is the only present day economic block that that can dictate terms to the USA.
OK, being Irish and being shagged sideways, backways and frontways by the Brits for over 700 years, yes, when I was at school, Irish History lessons didn’t go past the 1921 War of Independence, led my Michael Collins (a hero of the Irgun etc).
In our history, we marvelled at the Spanish who tried to take on the Brits in the Armada (Ireland being part of the plot, yeah right!) the French landing troops in Killala to help Wolfe Tone, (yeah right again!) and the Germans landing Rodger Casement from a sub in Kerry (yeah right again and again).
But ignoring my brackets that’s the way the Ireland say the EU entry. Now we have independence, we have joined Europe that “helped” us now and again from the Evil Brits. We took the opportunity, and from being the poorest bastard on the block in 1972 (EEC that is), we now are the fourth richest nation in the world (GDP/INCOME according to some commentator on RTE this evening).
What’s my point?
The EU works.

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Jan 24 2005 21:44 utc | 12

two more words for last sentence
“for now”

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Jan 24 2005 21:48 utc | 13

Robb: The problem is that we live in a market-world. Our ability to compete effectively in these global markets determines our long-term success. Muscular nation-states don’t do well in this environment. They involve themselves in non-economic behavior that radically harms their ability to compete effectively.

Yes and no. Elites still need and want to keep the nation state, so manage to convince their workers / citizens / soldiers and others of its existence and keep them tied. In that sense their behavior is economic — man muscle and intelligence is still needed for many things, *pace* Rummy’s dreams of smart machines – even he realises someone would have to make them.
The nation state exists, it is conventional, is is usable, manipulable for market purposes (e.g. Iraq), so it is conserved, up to a point.
It all depends on how one understands competition. It may involve domination, bombs, killing, pre-emptive wars, and so on. Is this entirely rational? No. It is expensive and return is uncertain. But what are the choices?
Scrapping the nation state publicly would lead to havoc, unpredictable violence.
A paragdim shift that no one is really willing to take on – mechanisms of production would break down. Not good.
Is this entirely rational? No. But then, what is?

Posted by: Blackie | Jan 24 2005 22:21 utc | 14

slothrop – don’t believe that the European Union is just an economic concept. It’s been wholly political since the beginning – it’s just been disguised most of the time as “only” economics (trade, technical standards, etc) to move forward further while those that would be genuinely distraught by its strategic implications (the anglo-Saxons, to make it simple, sorry for the Irish amongst us…) let it happen.
France and Germany will not go to war again (not so sure about UK vs either of the two). Can you understand the significance of that? How revolutionary that is? How much hope that brings for places that know nothing else than hate and war? You still have people (of my grand parents generation mostly) who use derogatory terms for the Germans, who won’t speak to them, who see them as evil – the hereditary enemy, but it is a disappearing breed.
I grew up in Alsace, a place that was swapped 4 times between the 2 countries in 75 years, where some brothers fought in two opposed armies, where kids were sent by force to fight on the Eastern front and came back in the 50s or later, where people were sometimes seen as “not really French” (traitor) by the rest of the French, despite fighting for being French, and where (from the fragmentary evidence I could find, around 10% of the (largeish) Jewish population only was killed during the war, where everybody speaks both languages, and where 35 years later, I could take my bike to go to the swimming pool across the border without any id (and that was in the 70s), where half of the workers at the big Mercedes plant across the river are Alsatian, and many of the engineers of the Swiss chemistry conglomerates in Basel come from Mulhouse universities across the border…
I am rambling, but my point is – this has been a border for a long time, and a zone of commerce, and a zone of war, torn between often far away sovereigns, and now it is a symbol of peace, of prosperity and, hopefully, a sign for the future.
And the silly Brits want to move the European Parliament from Strasbourg back to Brussels, because it is expensive and inconvenient. It’s a small price to pay for peace and prosperity. Join in, you’ll still be welcome. But please, stop pretending that Europe is about economics and business and money. A currency is not about money, it’s about sovereignty, which is not exactly the same thing…
Committees are a better way to solve conflicts than wars.
So the problem with Bush is not Nation-State per se, it is the easy recourse to armies rather than to bureaucrats or diplomats. Nation States make that easier, but not every Nation State behaves that way, only those that feel invulnerable or “special”.
France and Germany are still vibrant Nation-States and will not disappear into anything in the future. Simply, Europe has learnt the hard way not to behave like this (“special”) any more. Do we have to go through this again?

Posted by: Jérôme | Jan 24 2005 22:24 utc | 15

Markets–as of currencies, commodities (finance, energy, raw materials, agriculture), manufactured goods, etc.–have developed throughnations, empires, alliances, etc. Tracking those markets, and their ways of negotiating the boundaries and limits laid down by the very entities that enable them (nations, empires, alliances, etc.) completely defeats me. As to the ways in which capital collects, concentrates, and makes itself expand–and in the hands of what “owners”–is itself a mystery, and when we try to correlate the formations of capital with political entities and markets–well…I for one am not there yet. As for Bush and his colleagues, I think they’re just as mystified as I am, but that they have to pretend otherwise. Their hysterical “nationalism” is a pathetic mechanism of defense against the bad news of their own cluelessness. When did Bush ever utter a single intelligible sentence about the intricacies of capital formation? What we ge instead is some half-baked theology about turf and rights, which boils down to nothing more than a mad drive to make everyone on the face of the earth speak English, motivated by a quite mistaken belief that Bush actually speaks it himself.

Posted by: alabama | Jan 24 2005 22:25 utc | 16

Interesting to see a discussion about the viability / future of nation states. Not sure if they can be neatly scrutinized as ‘natural evolutionary processes’ as if truth be told many ‘nation states’ are the products of imperialist architects who were not of the ‘nations’ at all. Some strategic ‘buffer states’ (e.g. Jugoslavia) didn’t last long, other gruesomely grafted hybrids have resulted in millions of ‘ethnic’ or ‘nationalist’ groupings being stranded inside or on the wrong side of arbitrary boundaries drawn up at different times by various ‘victors’ and ‘superpowers’. Those on the the wrong side of these lines frequently find themselves designated as ‘terrorists’ for seeking the same rights as members of the ‘legitimized nations’ enjoy. (think Basques, Catalans, Bretons, Corsicans, Kurds, Tamils, Kashmiris, Chechens etc.). Often it seems to be the case that external architects were perfectly content to leave a broken-backed, ethnically and religiously divided ‘nation state’ in place of whatever natural developments might have thrown up as a house divided provides many opportunities for external meddling. Nationalism has has a journey from being a quasi ‘unifying’ force to a status of being reviled and demonized as backward and anti-pluralist. However, the potency of various nationalisms, and their capacity to resurface after centuries of suppression, suggests that whether as cynical flag of convenience or as a real indicator of cultural expression nationalism is a phenomenon that doesn’t die easily and can be fanned into life after long periods of dormancy. How can the USA turn an essentially WASP sense of Americanism into an all embracing blanket to soothe and warm its culturally diverse citizenry? And how can it do it when US foreign policy is wreaking havoc around the globe, often in the very spawning grounds of some of its own citizenry? Sometimes it sems almost chic to attack the concept of nationalism while promoting your own and the unpalatable truth of the origins of many nation states – at tip of sword or gunpoint or as a result of strangers poring over maps in cigar fume filled conference rooms – doesn’t get much of an airing. Yet much inequality and social injustice can be traced to the genesis of nation states and the type of governments installed in them or supported from outside. Economists look at markets but rarely consider why the marketplace is such a shambles. Wrapping themselves in Old Glory might not be the most productive thing for Americans to contemplate doing just at a point in history when other nations are waking up to the not always symbiotic nature of certain outside links and looking to rearrange the way commodities are priced and exchanged. The debate is further complicated as there are competing views on what constitutes ‘identity’ and who is entitled to afford ‘legitimacy’ to the various claims of nationhood that have so far gone unrecognized. Presumably, over thousands of years, it has been ever thus.

Posted by: Bystander | Jan 24 2005 22:48 utc | 17

Bystander, short comment, but IMHO the Brits drew up the borders from their Colonial past. At the height of their emperical power, Iraq gave them the bums rush, as Swedish Kind of Death, might say. The history book on the shelf, is always repeating itself.
That’s why; the EU model might work.

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Jan 24 2005 23:22 utc | 18

A fantasy of freedom

Posted by: Anonymous | Jan 24 2005 23:34 utc | 19

I’m not so sure about the future of the nation-state, but a point I think should be brought out is the identification of the United States as a nation-state. This may sound odd, but until Bush I had never thought of the US as a nation-state. The two are potentially quite different things. A nation is a group of people, usually speaking the same language and sharing the same culture — the Latin “natio,” which I have thought of as being basically a tribe. Implicit in the idea of the “nation” is exclusiveness — you’re either a member of the tribe or not.
A state, on the other hand, is an entity exercising sovereign authority (at least theoretically) over a given piece of land. Until the late Middle Ages, and indeed into the 20th century, there were nations and there were states, but there weren’t nation-states. Over time, some states became more or less coterminous with certain nations (the United Provinces,France,Portugal), but other states contained multiple nations. The most obvious examples are the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the Russian Empire, but this was equally true of the United Kingdom (English, Welsh, Scots, Irish (okay, CP, against their will), Sweden (Swedes, Finns, Norwegians), and Spain (Spanish plus all the locals in the colonies). Other nations either had no states — the Poles after 1798 — or had multiple states, like the Germans and the Italians. It’s an oversimplification, but I have always thought of Revolutionary France as being the first nation-state — that is to say, a state explicitly identifying itself with a nation.
By this measure, the United States was never a nation-state. Sure, most of the original colonists (and pretty much all of the Founding Fathers) were English Protestants, but the United States was never an English Protestant nation in those terms. Indeed, the whole point of the United States was that anyone could become an American. All you had to do was to move here and subscribe to certain common values. You didn’t have to change your language (thought learning English sure helped), and you certainly didn’t have to change your religion. There were currents within American society that exalted “American-ness,” and would have turned the United States into an American nation, but these never really got much traction, and were always overwhelmed by the tide of new immigrants from new places who were happy to be Americans, even if they didn’t have much in common with the people already here.
Bush is the first President ever who I think views Americans as a nation, in the sense of being an exclusive tribe. There have been outbursts of American nationalism before, and idealism and messianic impulses are a well-established current within American foreign policy. Bush, though, is the first President I can recall who not only held America up as a model (most have), but who maintained that it was a nation superior to all others, and as such had the duty to rule the world. Up until him, most Americans have believed that the rest of the world would become like the US because this was the best way to live, but that didn’t mean that they would become Americans, or that Americans were some sort of supermen. To me, the best evidence of this is the title Bush chose for something we had never had before — a Department of Homeland Security. “Homeland” was a term other people used. I have lived in the US practically my whole life, and until then, I had never heard the US described as the homeland. To me, it was a huge step towards delimiting an American nation apart from, exclusive of, and superior to all other nations.
I’m not sure what this has to do directly with Robb’s quote, but I do think it is useful to ponder the extent to which Bush’s nationalism is a genuinely new development in American history. And it scares hell out of me. I never want to hear Amerika uber alles, but it sure seems we’re headed that way.

Posted by: Aigin | Jan 25 2005 0:13 utc | 20

They involve themselves in non-economic behavior … but deary me, whoever said war was a non-economic behaviour? war imho is the continuation of commerce by criminal means. if you can’t buy it or don’t want to pay fair price, steal it; if your inferior goods don’t sell well, conquer a captive market and force them to buy; if your sluggish economy needs a dose of Viagra, start a war. Bush Wars I and II were/are both economic wars…
it may be that war is a stupid economic behaviour with high risk for short-term gains, or that it is an immoral economic behaviour. so is embezzlement. but I still think it can’t be reclassified as “non-economic” — to do so would require us to pretend that the Crusades had nothing to do with the spice routes, that the Yanks’ stormy romance with the Taliban had nothing to do with Unocal, that the British conquest of India was not achieved by a privately held company, that we didn’t send gunboats to force isolationist Japan to open its markets to the Industrial West.

Posted by: DeAnander | Jan 25 2005 1:02 utc | 21

There is a very interesting article at the Nexus Magazine site. Nexus is a little strange, but this article is great just like the Rockefeller article I refered to a month ago. The address is: http://www.nexusmagazine.com/article/corporations
Give it a read, its very interesting and wets my taste for populist politics.

Posted by: jdp | Jan 25 2005 2:46 utc | 22

As analles historians showed, especially Fernand Braudel’s majesterial thing on capitalism, the modern state has an intimate relation with the way capital is accumulated. This is not the only reason for the creation of the modern state, of course, but important.
As of right now, the only thing pretending statelessness in the capitalist class. For everyone else, the state serves the important legitimation of the capitalist class’s nifty mobility.

Posted by: slothrop | Jan 25 2005 3:44 utc | 23

As for bush’s “new” invocation of America, that’s not right, imo. Look at all those crackers: Kennedy’s “light on the hill,” Wilsonianism, teddy roosevet’simperialism, the post-WWI redscare invoked a similar appeal to ‘we.” I’m no presidential historian, and there are variations on a theme, but all this bullshit Bush ‘we’ stuff is old wine in new bottles.

Posted by: slothrop | Jan 25 2005 3:51 utc | 24

but yeah, alabama, his imagination for America is as prosaic as a Gene Autry movie.

Posted by: slothrop | Jan 25 2005 3:54 utc | 25

“patriots” v. “eagles”…you can’t make this kind of bs up.

Posted by: slothrop | Jan 25 2005 4:03 utc | 26

nothing there, jdp

Posted by: slothrop | Jan 25 2005 4:09 utc | 27

Jerome: France and Germany will not go to war again (not so sure about UK vs either of the two). Can you understand the significance of that? How revolutionary that is?
Indeed, I do.
Slothrop: Kennedy’s “light on the hill,” In my remembering that is not from JFK. It’s straight out of the speech writers for Ronnie Raygun. A bastardization of the “city on the hill” from the bible. Then there was Poppy Bush’s “Thousand points of light”.

Posted by: Kate_Storm | Jan 25 2005 4:17 utc | 28

kate
The energy, the faith, the devotion which we bring to this endeavor will light our country and all who serve it—and the glow from that fire can truly light the world.
close, anyway. same old.

Posted by: slothrop | Jan 25 2005 4:23 utc | 29

slothrop,
I’m not real swift at linking but go to Nexus Magazine and then click on previously published articles, then down to “The Rise and Rise of Corporate Rule” by Richard Heinberg.
I hope you find it, the site is a little strange but then they have a bunch really good articles on media, economics and politics.

Posted by: jdp | Jan 25 2005 4:40 utc | 30

Bush, though, is the first President I can recall who not only held America up as a model (most have), but who maintained that it was a nation superior to all others, and as such had the duty to rule the world. actually this has always been the underlying theme of the united states of america. perhaps not expressed outright by all presidents, but part of the republic’s guiding light, nonetheless. recall that the very first objective of the new empire was to “extirpate” the Indian peoples and steal their lands.

The most direct and strongest influences on America’s leaders came from the Enlightenment, but since the seventeeth century Americans had often thought of themselves as a special people with a providential role in world history. America’s sense of mission, even when conceived in religious terms, had always embodied a strong outward thrust. In the seventeenth century American beliefs had been intimately entertwined with the Protestant Reformation in England and with militant Puritanism…As American settlements advanced outward, the Puritans not only saw God’s kingdom moving to the West, but also thought of America as the place from which the renovation of the world would begin….In moving west American pioneers were perceived, both in Europe and America, as continuing a movement of civilization that had been continuous since the earliest times…The Enlightenment idea of progress gave a whole new impetus to the image of America as an arena for the betterment of mankind, and in America itself the idea of progress was never totally divorced from the belief in actual expansion and geographic destiny…The successful American Revolution provided for the American people a powerful, overt sign that Providence had indeed marked them for great deeds. In a direct way the new republic experiment was equated with universal freedom and progress…The reshaping of the world was to be achieved both by example and by American physical expansion…In the decades spanning the American Revolution the belief that expansion was an integral part of American destiny permeated American thinking.
…The rejection of “inferior” races as equal participants in the American republican system, combined with the assumptions of constant Anglo-Saxon growth, permeated American discussions of their world role after the Mexican War…The whole of Latin America, like Mexico, was viewed as an area that had been ruined by racial mongrelization and by subsequent misrule…Advocates of expansion southward thought of a new civilization emerging, a civilization that in population and culture would recreate the southern plantation states…typical of the 1850s was the belief that commercial penetration and population growth were the keys to future American relations with the rest of the world. American economic growth and the new technology would prepare the way for the ever-increasing American population to thrust outward into the most distant regions…Politicians and writers took a particular delight in the early 1850s in embellishing their defenses of commerce, Christianity, and racial destiny with this theme of the westward movement of civilization…There was never any doubt that civilization was to be carried into Asia along the paths of commerce…The Anglo-Saxonism of the last half of the [19th] century was no benign expansionism, though it used the rhetoric of redemption, for it assumed that one race was destined to lead, others to serve – one race to flourish, many to die. The world was to be transformed not by the strength of better ideasbut by the power of a superior race.
— — Reginald Horsman, Race and Manifest Destiny: The Origins of American Racial Anglo-Saxonism

“Westward the star of empire takes its way, in the whiteness of innocence” — John Quincy Adams
“Of course our whole national history has been one of expansion…That the barbarians recede or are conquered, with the attendant fact that peace follows their retrogression or conquest, is due solely to the power of the mighty civilized races which have not lost the fighting instinct, and which by their expansion are gradually bringing peace into the red wastes where the barbarian peoples of the world hold sway” — Theodore Roosevelt,The Strenuous Life, 1901

Posted by: b real | Jan 25 2005 6:19 utc | 31

Kate: since we’re into grandiose ideas like city on a hill, there’s also Bush I’s “New World Order”. How his advisers and speechwriters let him go away with it is beyond me. Anyone with knowledge of WWII will know what I mean.
b real: It’s also my impression that there has been an imperial and imperialist project beyond the US since the very beginning, including some of the founding fathers. Not that every administration ever pursued it consciously or with the same zeal, but still. Just look at the 13 original states, stuck between Appalachians and Ocean, and compare it to the current US borders, then tell me 19th century wasn’t about conquest and military expansionism.

Posted by: CluelessJoe | Jan 25 2005 9:10 utc | 32

Aigin,
I have heard two concepts being used in how the states solved the problem of defining the “demo” in “democracy” in the 19th century (to be clear, this problem was in no way limited to the states that was or became what we would recognize as a democracy). One was the contract-state and the other the tribal-state (or nation-state). All states are more or less both. The contract-state has a contractual relation with its citizens. US has often been used as the most typical contract-state with a large influx of immigrants, swearing an oath to become citizen (analogeus with signing a contract) and the bill of rights (the states part of the deal). Germany has for obviuos reasons been used as the example of the most typical tribe-state, but most states in europe are mostly tribe-states (exception: Switzerland).
As I view contract-state as being the less harmful condition, I am also worried about the US shift towards tribe-state.
But I think in this thread the “nation-state” has been used analogues to the “modern state” (the post 1648 state) and to the “tribe-state”. (In Sweden at least, “nation” and “state” are used as synonyms, making these discussions hard.)
Thus I reccon the discussion here has been confused. The growth of EU is a multi-nation-state forming and thus a contract-state. Nothing I see indicates that the end-product will not be a modern (federal) state which in time will control its police and army and be souvereign. As revolutionary as it is it will still be a modern state, and in a way it is a repetition of the construction of new states that occured in the 19th century but in a less violent way. Germans and Italians were far from the only nationalistic movements, the Scandinavianists and the Pan-Slavists fought for their respective nation-states. If the Slavs could be wieved as a nation, I guess so can the Europeans.
On the other hand the use of mercenaries in Iraq and tendencies towards private police forces in different parts of the world points toward the end of the modern state. This would be the cyber-punk vision of the future. Corporations which more or less become feudal enteties with their own armies, police, prisons and laws, “Now entering McDonalds-land”. This seems what Robb sees in the future. I am sceptic, I see to many tendencies to the contrary.

Posted by: A swedish kind of death | Jan 25 2005 13:53 utc | 33

@ Cloned,
though flattered by the reference could you please tell me what a “bums rush” is so I know what I might say? I tried google it…
Thanks 🙂

Posted by: A swedish kind of death | Jan 25 2005 13:56 utc | 34

The dissolving state:
George Monbiot on government licensed mercenaries and “outsourcing” of imperial intervention Pedigree dogs of war – “Some people who engage in foreign conflicts are called terrorists. Others are about to be government-licensed”

Posted by: b | Jan 25 2005 16:06 utc | 35

@ASKOD “the bum’s rush” iirc is the action of a bouncer (private security) in removing from a bar or other commercial establishment a person who isn’t behaving well, or seems too low-class (e.g. a “bum”) for the venue.
however modern field etymologists find it is taking on a new set of meanings a new generation’s argot:

Bum’s rush is the older phrase. Most dictionaries give an origin of around 1920, but I found a stray citation from 1910, so we’ll call it turn-of-the-century. Getting the bum’s rush means ‘getting forcibly ejected’, like a bum would be by a bouncer or a store owner. The phrase comes from the ‘shiftless beggar’ meaning of bum, originally related to the German Bummler for ‘a loafer’. On a side note, this kind of dismissal is also called walking Spanish. But back to the phrase at hand. Bum’s rush continues to be used, metaphorically, as in this example: “an aggressive foreign investor is likely to be given the bum’s rush through unsuitable use of the state’s zoning…laws” (The Economist, 1975).
Unrelated to the turn-of-the-century noun bum’s rush is the slang expression bum rush from the 1980s. The primary meaning of the verb bum rush is ‘to stampede toward the stage’ or ‘to crash the gates of a concert’. This is the meaning used by Public Enemy in their 1987 album title. Bum rush seems to have originated as slang for ‘a police raid’ and the stampede that followed. Metaphorically, it can be used to talk about crashing into any area, as in: “Rap is…bum-rushin’ the mainstream” (New York Times, 1988). This use is also seen in a recent Atlanta Journal and Constitution article about a park “when a group of kids from a local day care bum rush the place” (2000).

Posted by: DeAnander | Jan 25 2005 18:17 utc | 36

DeA:
Thanks.

Posted by: A swedish kind of death | Jan 25 2005 18:35 utc | 37