Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
December 9, 2004
Iraq Thread

"The enemy is operating in smaller cells with every bit as lethal capabilities as we have, but they can turn on a dime," Rumsfeld says in an interview.
Defense secretary shifts his focus to the Pentagon

FY 2005 – Department of Defense Budget (PDF):

Procurement:  US$ 75,905,000,000; R & D: US$ 68,942,000,000
;

If the enemy has every bit as lethal capabilities without such a budget there is finally proof that this spending is nothing more than buying big toys and company welfare. Ask for your taxes to be returned immediately.

Other news:

Powell asks for European troops in Iraq
Iraq ; Abuse continued in Abu Ghraib even after scandal became public
US appeals Geneva protection for imprisoned bin Laden driver
More U.S. Soldiers Survive War Wounds
Six Iraqi national guards, 10 civilians wounded in Mosul attacks

Comments

Yes, you are right – the justification for the arms budget is not the effectiveness of the weapons procured, least of all the cost-effectiveness – rather, it is the money flowing through the system providing jobs for the little people and megaprofits for the ruling class – ’twas ever thus

Posted by: mistah charley | Dec 9 2004 18:38 utc | 1

Senators condemn mystery spy project – Intel committee member calls it ‘dangerous to national security’

In an unusual rebuke, Sen. Jay Rockefeller of West Virginia, the senior Democrat on the Intelligence Committee, complained Wednesday that the spy project was “totally unjustified and very, very wasteful and dangerous to the national security.” He called the program “stunningly expensive.”
Rockefeller and three other Democratic senators — Richard Durbin of Illinois, Carl Levin of Michigan and Ron Wyden of Oregon — refused to sign the congressional compromise negotiated by others in the House and Senate that provides for future U.S. intelligence activities.

Posted by: b | Dec 9 2004 18:38 utc | 2

b
in the words of big bill broonzy (apropos i think of the work of schelling) that seem pertinent to this ongoing criminal war….
“how long……..ô lord how long…..how long”
& the great leadbelly
“well welll wel….l well well welll well….well well well….i aint goin’ down that well no more….no more….no more…..well well well”
still steel

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 9 2004 19:14 utc | 3

The British Road (Robert Wyatt)
Those foreigner’s are at it again
When will they learn to fight like our men
There’s nothing new under the mirror
And it’s time for one more bedtime story
Get beauty sleep for morning glory
How can I rise if you don’t fall?

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 9 2004 19:35 utc | 4

@b there is finally proof that this spending is nothing more than buying big toys and company welfare oh dear, back to an issue which has long troubled me: contemporary capitalism thrives on waste and irrelevance. that is, the most “profitable” (i.e. the most middlemen and niche parasites squeeze the most profit out of it) way of doing something is inevitably a stupid, wasteful and corrupt way. the efficient, effective, and honest way would provide far less opportunity for profiteering, skimming, theft and so forth.
take the US medical care system (please!) — it’s grossly inefficient. as was pointed out recently by one critic, it spends more money simply on gatekeeping, i.e. denial of service, than it takes in profit. its materials and supplies are grossly overpriced. middlemen are raking off huge profits throughout the food chain, and as a result the whole system is creaky, stupid, and delivers poor service for very high costs compared to other systems. measured by fairly objective actuarial rulers like life expectancy, general state of public health, years of survival post-therapy, error rate, number of persons served per dollar invested — it’s a joke. yet it is “profitable” in the sense that legions of parasites make a living off it, and those legions would be without livelihood if the system were made effective, efficient, and honest.
ditto the US industry of death — let’s call it frankly what it is — the industry which manufactures the materiel of war and repression. the weapons industry now represents, per the last figures I’ve read, about 25 percent of US GDP. the US is the largest arms dealer on the planet, leading its rivals Russia, England, France by an enormous factor — I think US companies get something like 45 percent of all arms sales worldwide, not to mention their sinecure providing disposable toys to the “largest command economy still going,” the US military and spook establishment.
so the US economy is not just pathetically dependent on foreign oil, it is pathetically dependent on manufacturing armaments. it is pathetically dependent upon its oil dependency to provide the casus belli for the endless wars it depends on to absorb the surplus stock of munitions and provide perpetual job security for its death-industrialists. yes, I meant that — there are influential power players who don’t want to see any end to US dependency on foreign oil because that would reduce the tendency of the US to engage in foreign wars, and that would reduce profits for a very large sector of its economy.
in other words, if the NT Jesus appeared tomorrow and said, “Y’all stop killing each other now, y’hear?” in accordance with the Commandments and the Kingdom of Peace and all that, the US economy would collapse overnight, a quarter of its GDP disappearing, millions of socialised jobs disappearing, one of its few remaining export markets gone.
the same critique can be applied to many other subsystems… safe, efficient public transport is less profitable than a sprawling chaos of private car-based transport. there are more opportunities, more niches for parasitism and waste and “externalised costs” (which always offer a profit opportunity for someone who proposes to remedy or abate them) in the car-culture than in a train or bus based culture. every “traffic accident” means revenue for legions of car repair shops, doctors, morticians and so on. the practise of transporting food thousands of miles to be packaged and processed and then thousands more miles to be sold on shelves is insane, yet it generates enormous parasitical opportunities in transport, packaging, processing, etc.
it’s the fundamental paradox of monetism and capitalism, imho, that the churning of money — money changing hands, profits being made — is read as the sole indicator of success and well-being; and yet the maximal opportunity for such churning is found in a maximally dysfunctional society. in other words, you can sell a lot more water filters where the water system is compromised and people need to buy them to compensate for that dysfunction. every person dying of cancer (from cigs, from industrial toxicity, from background radiation) represents enormous profits for the cancer care industry.
every misfortune, loss, ailment and dysfunction that people have to spend money to deal with or correct, represents profit for some opportunistic entrepreneur or parasitical niche organism; and thus when we are told to worship profit, for its own sake, in the abstract, we are being encouraged to celebrate waste, loss, sickness and incompetence as these generate the most money-churning activity.
I’m hardly the first to catch on to this contradiction — it’s a fundamental plank of the challenge to neolib econ. but it strikes me with renewed force reading b’s text above — as we consider the “war economy” and the billions and billions (hat tip to old Carl) of bucks being spent to try to be more lethal than some third world insurgents with refurbished AK47s. you are just as dead whether killed by a $45,000 burst of high-tech munitions or a $5 burst of lead from a thirty year old Soviet machine gun. the only difference is that someone pays a lot more for the first kind of death, and that means that someone makes a sh*tload of money delivering it.
the criminality, disorder, and wastefulness of war makes it a maximally profitable activity and therefore one to which capital naturally gravitates — along with drugs and prostitution, the traditional quick-buck businesses. perhaps this is a corollary of Gresham’s note about bad money driving out good — though I think he was more concerned with metallurgical quality at the time… anyway, the absurdity of US military expenditure is imho part and parcel of “maximally parasitical capitalism” imho.

Posted by: DeAnander | Dec 9 2004 19:45 utc | 5

DeAnander, you forgot to mention the insurance business….

Posted by: alabama | Dec 9 2004 19:54 utc | 6

deanander
I’m no expert, but even by the rationale of capital accumulation, the permanent war economy can only provide a short-term keynesian demand stimulus. The war economy’s few benefits is inversely affected by declining consumer confidence and often, inflation due to debt.
But, there are many complex arguments. One of the most thorough is Mandel’s permanent war chapter in Late Capitalism.

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 9 2004 20:04 utc | 7

that is, war economy is not immanently rational.

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 9 2004 20:07 utc | 8

Breaking News
Sadrists are not included in the pan-Shia list for the elections.

Posted by: Greco | Dec 9 2004 21:56 utc | 9

“after the liberation of saigon,” i was delirious with joy”, confided giap in an interview. he flew to saigon & visited the headquarters of thye american army command, “everything was intact, he said, because they had fled too quickly to destroy papers & documents. iremember a computer used for targeting & localising vietcong zones.. i have followed this war vey closely – but on this day, on this very day i had the profound impression that we had not only defeated their soldiers but also the gigantic potential of the american army its ghostly leadership”. giap made another conclusion – “all the modern equipment & technology was useless. absolutely useless. the human factor was decisive”
giap – la victoire à tout prix my translation (clumsy)
still steel

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 9 2004 23:06 utc | 10

De: oh dear, back to an issue which has long troubled me: contemporary capitalism thrives on waste and irrelevance.
Seems simple enough to me, De, and you’ve encapsulated it so very well. I realize it will rankle some to mention Orwell, but his description of how the economy of Oceania functioned very much parallels all of this. Let’s not forget also the manufacturing of “scarcity” … so important to keep those contemporary capitalist wheels squeaking away.
I stand in respect most all the time of the talent and skill that goes into your putting of this stuff so succinctly. I can see it and feel it, but I cannot say it in a way that doesn’t go all cosmic, dang it. 😉

Posted by: Kate_Storm | Dec 10 2004 0:22 utc | 11

dahrjamailiraq.com/weblog/
after reading article, view photos.

Posted by: old | Dec 10 2004 0:41 utc | 12

@Kate succinctly??? har de har de har, ho ho ho, ROTFL. you must be the first person ever to accuse me of succinctness! bouquet gra{c|t}efully accepted, however 🙂

Posted by: DeAnander | Dec 10 2004 1:18 utc | 13

@RG:
“The human factor is always decisive”; and I think we are learning it all over again in Iraq.
By the way, I sent you a nice Christmas present–A 5 year subscription to Atlantic Monthly–I remember how you mentioned several treads ago how you enjoyed it and how you had trouble buying it in France.
Don’t fret none. It didn’t cost me that much–Cub Scout magazine type sale. I got one year of Weekly World News free for me, and a year of Real Detective for Uncle Abe–In his dotage he thinks he’s Sherlock Holmes or the Bitch of Belsen; I haven’t quite figured out which.
No thanks necessary. I can imagine your joy at imbibing the wisdom of Christopher Hitchens over 5 years.

Posted by: FlashHarry | Dec 10 2004 1:29 utc | 14

The biggest error was occupation. Of course, the United States should have liberated Iraq, but it should never have occupied Iraq and tried to run this country along the lines of a colony. Many times before and during the war, I said that the Iraqi people would welcome liberation but reject occupation. And that is exactly what happened. The insurgency only tarted after the United States and United Kingdom passed U.N. resolution 1483 in which they called themselves occupiers. All the coalition’s problems have stemmed from that. Why would Iraqi police and security forces risk their lives for an occupation? Were they expected to die for America? The stain of occupation is well known in the Middle East.
There should have been an Iraqi provisional government as part of the coalition, ready to take over as soon as Saddam was gone. This government could have been expanded to include indigenous forces, and its main task would have been planning elections as fast as possible. But the State Department did not let this happen because the other Arab countries were petrified of what might come. President Bush promised the Iraqi people liberation and democracy, and instead they got occupation and delayed elections. Now we have an interim government in which all its senior members were outside the country. The only members of this government who were not in exile are Baathists who served Saddam. So what did fourteen months of occupation achieve? The electricity still doesn’t work; thousands are dead; the United States has lost the moral high ground in the Middle East, and the U.N., which opposed the liberation of Iraq, has been allowed to impose Baathists back on the Iraqi people.
Guess who?

Posted by: Anonymous | Dec 10 2004 8:13 utc | 15

So, the worlds most advanced technological military the world has ever known, has spent the past couple of days trying to explain, why it soldiers have been searching scrap dumps in search of armor plating to protect their vehicles. In some ways this little debate would serve to illustrate the absolute absurdity that the US’s position in Iraq has become. It is interesting that such an issue should arise because in many ways it is typical of the whole shebang, or better put, typical of a way of thinking — a mind set.
If it were’nt so tragic, it would be amusing to ponder how the um-teen billion dollar DOD and military industrial complex, backed up with resolute political will power, and stratigized over and over again by the best geo-political minds could — once again — find themselves up against the wall, by some third world country fighting, by comparison, with pitchforks and torches.
And now so typical, it becomes big news, that the failure in some measure might lie in some little detail of planning and procedure. I guess there is some truth to it ,in that it is a problem that has been ineffectivly delt with, now going on three years, but one might surmise, that gee, maybe all that billion dollar technological superoirity might in some way make up the difference? So this is probably why this becomes a media issue — that an E-4 rank soldier can ask the Sec of Defense a simple question about the simplest of technology that has been overlooked (maybe ignored?).
What bothers me about all this is that this obsession with nomenclature, all this attention to the tactical details, all this hand wringing over STUFF — and all the media chasing around and around after all these details is evidenced of a mindset that is so convinced in its own logic, that even in the face of an ever greater descent into the blatent contradiction of its own moral ediface, can only look for answers within the perameters of its own making.
It is an astonishing fact that the reflection of its own mission as portrayed in the media, fails to even consider the yawing chasam between the stated capacity of the lauded US military prowess and the abject failure to meet the so stated results, and that any failure is always characterized as some oversight within the system, and that with proper attention on the part of some functionary, things will soon be humming along.
But, as it goes things are not humming along, in fact every move we make(with all our STUFF) only creates more failure and woe. From an objective viewpoint you might think that the overidding and obvious story would’nt be some detail failure, but instead be the Hindenberg size observation that both all the kings horses and all the kings men, with all there cherished wisdom, have only created another blood omlete, and that it is intrinscally bound somehow in how we view and partake of the world.
All things equal, the Vietnamese and now the Iraqis are instructive in their ability to locate their defense solely within the collective identity of their individuals — as opposed to the opulent veneer of a protectorate,

Posted by: anna missed | Dec 10 2004 12:23 utc | 16

And just when you thought…:
http://www.dailywarnews.blogspot.com/
Suck it up. “He lost his arm serving his country in Iraq. Now this wounded soldier is being discharged from his company in Fort Hood, Texas, without enough gas money to get home. In fact, the Army says 27-year-old Spc. Robert Loria owes it close to $2,000, and confiscated his last paycheck.”

Posted by: TR | Dec 10 2004 16:40 utc | 17

DeAnander: In my little town I work to reduce pollution by wood smoke because smoke makes me sick. I circulate whatever negative information I find about that pollutant. Recently I forwarded to the Chamber of Commerce a report that wood smoke represents a financial loss to communities in that it leads to illness and lost work time. But I did this knowing that there is no net loss, just a transfer, maybe even a gain. All the industries that profit from illness, plus what is called the hearth industry, are winners here. Regard for the quality of life of others would shift a whole lot of wealth around…

Posted by: emereton | Dec 10 2004 16:57 utc | 18

If you really want to get into this economic inequity stuff, Stan Goff has a nice long piece over at FTW. The date is Dec. 6 so scroll down. Or go direct:
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/120604_material_accumulation.shtml
He compares capitalism and growth to a thermodynamic process by which entropy (source of highly organised energy) is transported from its origin (Saudi oil wells) to centers of consumption. From there is is used and dissipated down the chain by car engines and manufacturing, and the waste is eventually dumped in other low-income regions. The bulk of the benefits (wealth) stays with the exploiters.
That was a crude synopsis of the energy flow part. His point though is that the capitalist system of growth follows a similar pattern, where the cheapest labor and materials and oil of course are used to create wealth which is concentrated under the control of those near the top of the pecking order. So, standard economic theory so far right.
You must read the piece to find out why a Marxist dream of spreading the benefits of this manufacturing/growth/material/wealth among the laborors can never work. And that vast chunks of population which are extraneous to this system are to be discreetly eliminated; their labor and/or consumption are a drag on it, making them a wasteful excess.
And lastly (this is from me, not Goff), SARS, bird flu, multiple dead microbiologists are not natural occurrances.

Posted by: rapt | Dec 10 2004 19:52 utc | 19

kate storm et flashharry
i know the great avicenne, bruno & vico aussi but there is a term kate used that has mystified me since childhood. i think i heard it first on a recording of blind lemon jefferson & the term is :
“killing floor”
i have also seen or heard it as “hard time killing floor'”
can someone enlighten me – it is a terrible absence on my part – i think i’ve aalways thought it as either a sexual or drug connotation – or a reference to ‘cutting’ as in jazz. not proud of my imbecility in this area – so i demand help
still steel

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 10 2004 19:54 utc | 20

In addition to the above, you would think that the predominate and glaringly obvious inability of the US mission in Iraq, to achieve anything positive, would first warrent some media reflection on that inability, and then have a look at the more endemic problem of, call it “cultural proclivity” or the obsessive reliance on a kind of false analytic or systemic kind of thinking that leads one to put so much faith and certitude( not to mention untold billions of capital) into such a project (as the Iraq or Vietnamwar) that is so clearly a functional and pathological disaster.
I’m just trying to say that our ability to reflect (media) on our actions seems marred by the same structural myopia that also characterizes the foreign policy it is reporting on — to the extent that its measure of success is lost within its own muse-ings of its own infallibility. And by comparism, the Vietnamese and now the Iraqi resistance, show in relation to the threat posed upon them by us, a much greater aptitude and effeciency in dealing with that threat, and tactical considerations aside,I would surmise that buried somewhere deep in their psyche lies a mindset or mode of thought, that is as fundamentaly different from our own as it is fundamentaly, more effective when taken to task. I would further guess that this ability to throw off a much greater adversary, would necessarily be found somewhere in a trust or intrinsic faith within individuals to express a collective will to power, as opposed to power givin by some authority and decree. So with that said, I suppose it should be no suprise that the media would be incapable of reportage that would expose this differential in that its power comes from above, and that to reflect on the power from below, even if it once again reveals our major flaws, would be treasonous to its own illusion of itself, and thus unspeakable.

Posted by: anna missed | Dec 10 2004 20:51 utc | 21

anna missed
at the risk of seeming ridiculous – ho has sd that there is nothing more precious than national independence & freedom & i imagine that this is what the iraquis want
though there are others here who disagree – i see this moment especially the last six months as an almost classic war of liberation – the principal character is not religious but national. a person has only to really understand a little of iraq’s histroy to understand that. there are different elements who make up the front for this liberation & as in all struggles of this nature – it is an extremely broad front. there will be several levels of ‘legality’ also – that is all forms of resistance will be used including an ‘electoral’ ‘process’ which is neither electoral nor a process
u s imperialism cannot win. it has not won anywhere else. it can win in the short term & i mean in the very short term – as in a battle, for example – but it cannot win anything that is substantial.
in an old post you spoke of the firebases & how in the end the americans could not even protect that from the ghost armies that just walked into khe sahn
i have sd here also that given that the resistance is covering a very broad front & that the exingencies of groups at times must be diametrically opposed – they remain organic to the national impulse. what is surprising is that with what ‘leadership^’ the resistance has – which of necessity is multiple – they have scored very great successes against the occupying army. how they have done this in their incoherent state in an incoherent state is for me, remarkable & would suggest that the next six months will see an intensification & a consolidation of the resistance
the american army as a unit has been much mystified including by its own publicists but the reality shows that only under massive bombing can it maintain any sort of control. that was true in vietnam. it is also true in iraq. the extralegal apparatus of this army which is closer to the einsatzgruppen than it is to any other classic military formation & which has been developed over many occupations & insurgencies which is quietly but clearly liquidating its enemies – if you like the real ‘democrats’, ‘nationalists’ & ‘communists’ – is an exercise in brutality (for which it tries to blame the resistance ) that can only have a short term success.
this murdering of the cultural & intellectual capital of iraq has as its clear roots ‘operation condor’ in latin america & its training in the old school of americas. the brutalist can say – that it works – that you wipe out a generation of opposition – but the recent movement in latin america are showing very clearly & very precisely – that a people want what lenin always sd they wanted – bread, land & freedom
armies fight for reasons, usuallly – & this is no different. this is an imperial exercise of the worst kind – but what is also apparent is that the footsoldier – much more than in vietnam or grenada – do not know why they are there. & they are empirical enough to know whatever they are doing is not working – it is not workling at all & that is when the fear commences & what i have read on that through correspondences & articles – is that fear is profoundly strong – whatever we are in the west we are not martyrs & as brecht sd that is mostly a good thing – but the resistance is quite capable of using martyrdom both on a tactical & at a strategic level & on that score they are winning the ‘hearts & minds’ – each & every day
the martyrs highlight the venality & rapacity of allawi’s group of gangsters in a way that is decidedly different from the way the thieus were capable of using several levels of integration to shore up minimal support. allawi does not even have that – & their nights must be lonely & horror filled because their end is certain & it will be ugly. if they have any inteligence at all they will return from where they came – the west – because they clearly do not belong in iraq
what gives this a catostrophic aspect is that it is happening in a time that is excacerbated & accelerating – the controls that the empire can put in place seem paper thin – they cannot be held for any amount of time. in the catastrophe to come it is the ordinary people who will suffer as they always do – but this empire will suffer the first in a long line of defeats from which it will not be able to recover
still steel

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 10 2004 22:35 utc | 22

Anna Missed, et al: I commend a memoir to you, “The Cat From Hue” by John Laurence (2002). If you can find it, it is well worth a read. Laurence was a young CBS reporter in Viet Nam who started out buying the party line and ended up seeing – – and trying to report on – – the futility, the insanity, and the brutality it was. It stayed with him the rest of his life and shaped him, as it did many others who experienced it. I have been expecting we would see similar evolutions in today’s media, though not much has surfaced yet.

Posted by: maxcrat | Dec 11 2004 2:51 utc | 23

The only matter that lies between u.s. military ‘victory’ and the submission of arabs (in particular) to anglo-domination in the ME is the willingness of consent by americans to apply whatever means necessary to ‘win.’
I believe there is this collective will to vindicate such power. Arendt’s ‘banality of evil,’ now more obvious than ever.
I’m less certain everyday the path of maoist insurgency can ‘bleed until bankrupt.’ I’m also more and more uncertain that pat’s ‘broken army’ will delay America’s resolve to help fat white housewives drive their suvs. Perhaps the historic emergence of u.s. state coercion is more total.

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 11 2004 4:04 utc | 24

DeA
I hear what you say, but what are the alternatives?
Command systems have proved even worse – pollution and waste in the Soviet union was (and still is) by many orders of magnitude (yes, really) worse than it is in the West – not to mention the size of the military…
Corporatist capitalism (formerly known as feodalism) is the problem, not capitalism itself, and especially not the regulated capitalism that was put in place in the last 70 years and partly dismantled in the last 20. Blame the deregulators, not the capitalism itself.
No system can cope with public goods and externalities easily. Solutions are complex and awkward. What I can agree with is that “pure” capitalism as is packaged in the US and apparently believed by many to be the solution to everything is not the solution, and it is the cause of some problems, but so not blame it for everything.
And remember – what you are really yearning for is a population with a sense of ethics and personal responsibility. No system will provide that (and again, Soviet education may be excellent at maths, science and other such objective skills but it is horrible at morals and ethics, bathed as it is in an horribly noxious system of values).
Now back to work for me…

Posted by: Jérôme | Dec 11 2004 7:56 utc | 25

‘Broken army’ simply means seriously reduced capability to undertake major combat and stability operations in the future. Some Army functions are definitely in worse shape than others. There’s broken and then there’s Broken. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending upon one’s particular point of view) there’s no function that can be done without. Some parts can work in a half-assed fashion (and some do in every campaign) but they’ve all got to work to begin with. You can’t start at the point of breakdown.
OIF will be over by 2006, but. But we’ll be in Iraq forever (that is, until we’re shown the door). The operation itself – the very thing to whose day-to-day existence we’ve grown accustomed – has a definite shelf-life, determined by what Rumsfeld would, I guess, refer to as “known knowns.” What comes after is US Forces Iraq – along the lines of US Forces Korea. The massive deployments end. The SOFA, the semi-permanent forward stationing, and the one-year unaccompanied tours of duty begin. Tens of thousands, rather than a hundred and tens of thousands of troops, all garrisoned. That’s the idea, as Karen Kwiatowski pointed out back when this struck some as a rather incredible proposition, albeit for an entirely different reason than it seems incredible now.
Will it pan out? There is no shortage of very knowledgable people who swear, in good faith and with much evidence, that it won’t. But I’m not one of those very knowledgable people and I’m willing to consider the possibility that it will – that what’s happened to the guerillas in Afghanistan will happen to the guerillas in Iraq. We’ll get a weaker, newly-positioned force, with lower rates of retention, and a whole new bag of other problems in return. The neocons will have gotten what they immediately desired and the empire, so-called, will metabolize a new set-up.
If the insurgency fails to deliver the goods, then what? If we manage to position ourselves more or less comfortably in Iraq, then what?
It was inconceivable to many, including myself in the late spring, that Bush would win the election. (Still inconceivable to those who are adamant that it was a work of fraud.) But the inconceivable materialized. It may do so again.
What then?

Posted by: Pat | Dec 11 2004 8:47 utc | 26

Salon: Whitewashing torture?

Dec. 8, 2004 | On June 15, 2003, Sgt. Frank “Greg” Ford, a counterintelligence agent in the California National Guard’s 223rd Military Intelligence (M.I.) Battalion stationed in Samarra, Iraq, told his commanding officer, Capt. Victor Artiga, that he had witnessed five incidents of torture and abuse of Iraqi detainees at his base, and requested a formal investigation. Thirty-six hours later, Ford, a 49-year-old with over 30 years of military service in the Coast Guard, Army and Navy, was ordered by U.S. Army medical personnel to lie down on a gurney, was then strapped down, loaded onto a military plane and medevac’d to a military medical center outside the country.
Although no “medevac” order appears to have been written, in violation of Army policy, Ford was clearly shipped out because of a diagnosis that he was suffering from combat stress. After Ford raised the torture allegations, Artiga immediately said Ford was “delusional” and ordered a psychiatric examination, according to Ford. But that examination, carried out by an Army psychiatrist, diagnosed him as “completely normal.”

Guardian Guantánamo torture and humiliation still going on, says shackled Briton

The allegations about Mr Mubanga’s treatment are contained in a letter from a Foreign Office official to the prisoner’s family. Mr Mubanga, a former motor cycle courier, made his allegations in June during a welfare visit.
The letter reads: “Martin told the official … he had been interrogated, shackled and not allowed to go to the toilet.
“He said he had wet himself and had been forced to clean up the mess himself. Martin said that in another incident in June, he had been put in a room with the temperature at 97F … he knew the temperature because he had seen the dial.”
The letter continues: “Martin said that there had been a struggle and he had had his hair stood on by the interrogator.”

WaPo Detainee Hearings Bring New Details and Disputes

The detainees, who cannot consult lawyers at the hearings, are not allowed to see the classified evidence or learn the sources of the allegations against them.
Several contend that American interrogators physically and psychologically abused them until they made false, incriminating statements about themselves and fellow prisoners, according to their statements to the tribunals or their lawyers. In papers released Thursday, an Australian detainee who faces charges of war crimes asserted that U.S. interrogators repeatedly beat him while he was blindfolded, injected him with drugs against his will and offered him a prostitute in exchange for information about his fellow prisoners.

Posted by: b | Dec 11 2004 11:44 utc | 27

What then?
Like rgiap, I thought the war would become one of national liberation. The shia/sunni/kurd factiousness (not merely fortuiitous) helps the u.s. Perhaps the war, post-election will unite, for the necessary time, sunni/shia insurgents. Sistani’s disapproval could, at any time, cause this to happen.
In any case, the u.s. succeeds only by assuring a longterm sunni insurgency and u.s. ‘security occupation’ of Iraq. If things in central Iraq collapse even further, partition could be a partial solution.

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 11 2004 16:07 utc | 28

rgiap
killing floor is the area in a slaughterhouse where the animals are killed.

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 11 2004 16:10 utc | 29

rapt
find out why a Marxist dream of spreading the benefits of this manufacturing/growth/material/wealth among the laborors can never work.
ugh. regulation is not a zero-sum, game.
Jerome
really, what’s a command economy? Regulation is simple, in my view. Any public good (nonxcludable and nonrivalrous) and manufacture of goods and services that show increasing returns to scale (energy, industries subject to network effects) and goods that suffer overcompetition (transport) and industries in which demand elasticity is infinite (healthcare) should be socially owned. That’s simple.

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 11 2004 16:28 utc | 30

also, wrt agricultiure: “small is beautiful.”

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 11 2004 16:31 utc | 31

What comes after is US Forces Iraq – along the lines of US Forces Korea. The massive deployments end. The SOFA, the semi-permanent forward stationing, and the one-year unaccompanied tours of duty begin. Tens of thousands, rather than a hundred and tens of thousands of troops, all garrisoned. That’s the idea…
I suppose we could make a list of the things that threaten this plan – such as a failure to train and retain enough Iraqi troops to make a truly joint security endeavor, with US forces largely in the backround, possible in the medium-to-long term. There was a net loss of thousands of Iraqi security forces in September and October. I think the unhappy statistics are at the Global Security website. The continued endangerment of Iraqi civilians by criminal gangs and guerilla forces also does not bode well. The deep suspicion among Iraqis is that this violence continues because the US, which is all-powerful and all-capable, simply doesn’t care to end it and perhaps favors it – abetting the potentially unending victimization of Iraqis by Iraqis. The insurgency certainly approves this common grasp of the situation because it is more corrosive to popular trust and acceptance than a view of the US as feeble and incompetent.

Posted by: Pat | Dec 11 2004 17:45 utc | 32

slothrop
ot – but i dont understandthe reference in these old blues songs – ‘hard time killing floor’ – is it something like hardship beyond measure – something like that – as a term it is repeated again & again in the american songbook
perhaps i’m a bit slow – but perhaps slothrop you could gibe me a worshop on significations
still steel

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 11 2004 18:32 utc | 33

slothrop
partition like federation will collapse too as it did in vietnam – or in any other country where large swathes of land are consigend to be liberation zones – the zones inevitably get bigger
no the only method for the americans is that of good king leopold – the destruction of a people & their liens with their earth – they are already deep in the jungle – that they would like to think is larger than the green zone but which is the green zone reproduced again & again – momentary, transitional & collapse inevitable
i son’t disagree with you slothrop – in the short term – the u s will try everything & every computation of everything & during that time only suffering will reign
still steel

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 11 2004 18:37 utc | 34

“The shia/sunni/kurd factiousness (not merely fortuiitous) helps the u.s.”
I suppose this depends upon the reasons for and depth of factiousness. It’s not at all difficult to imagine it working against, rather than for, long-term US aims.
But this reminds me of the thoughts of one retired Marine colonel or general, a counterinsurgency guy, not long ago dispatched to Qatar or Iraq. When the insurgency sets up operations in a city, town, or village, the locals need time to get to know it and grow sick and tired of it. If and when the latter takes place, you’re in a much better position to mount operations against it. The insurgency’s campaign of fear, intimidation, and free-lance reprisal has to be allowed to create anger, resentment, grief, frustration, weariness, rejection, and desperation in the local civilian population – before it is really advantageous to forcibly dislodge it and be perceived at least as the lesser of two evils.

Posted by: Pat | Dec 11 2004 19:52 utc | 35

I’d be inclined, like rem.giap, and in spite of the appearance of ethnic/religious strife — to consider the ‘insurgency” in Iraq as a homegrown nationalist war of liberation. First off, the role played by “foreign fighters” “flooding” into the country has clearly been overplayed, as evidenced by the small numbers captured in Fallujah (like a half dozen by one report). The notion that these people are orchestrating the insurgency are baseless and most likely trumped up for US consumption — providing the ready example of ” we’re fighting the terrorists on their soil”, is necessary in the rotation of viable justifications of lumping Iraq into the war on terror.
The fact that “terrorist” actions have been taking place is easily attributable to the general insurgent tactic of discouraging any cooperation with the occupation. I’d say that most, if not all of these actions have been carefully thought out to achieve the desired effect of seperating the occupation (& all complicit NGO’s,contractors etc)from the population at large. By targeting Iraqi police,nat. guard, along with necessary civilian installations, the occupation is forced to do everything themselves, controlling only the turf they are standing on — this exerts enormus strain on personal, finances, and equipment (saw a report yesterday stating that repair to vehicle/equipment was up 2000% over last year). Essentially, what is sold here as “anti Iraqi” terrorist activity, is simply an adept methodology (with the means at hand) calculated to walk the occupation into ever decreasing islands of influence.And in this respect, time is on their side as a culture of resistance is cultivated and replaces incramentally, the culture of occupation.
While there are some significant current and historical disagreements between the Shiite and Sunni factions, along with issues of secular and religious foundations of society, I see no reason to believe that both are not united with respect to the occupation. What is portrayed as a rift between the two factions is more likely a difference in short term goals that revolve around expectations about elections. Al- Sistani himself has recently stated that the first order of business stemming from elected power, would be an end to occupation. It would’nt be unreasonable to assume that if this demand was not honored, that Sistani would (at the least) willingly yield some authority to forces loyal to Al-Sadr and resume an elevated resistance, that if was more co-ordinated to the (increasingly effective) Sunni effort — would dramatically increase the latent nationalist profile of the insurgency while simultaneously insuring the odds of its success. I would imagine the Iraqi players in all this know perfectly well this circumstance, and are also bound together in a struggle that can only and ultimately be accurately characterized as a nationalist war of liberation, albeit with a multiplicty of tactics, and a mysterious (to us) control structure.

Posted by: anna missed | Dec 11 2004 22:21 utc | 36

“time is on their side as a culture of resistance is cultivated and replaces incramentally, the culture of occupation.” – anna missed
i think very subtly but with more coherence than i can offer you have hit the nail on the head.
in a few words you have described what constitutes a war of liberation in its first phase & it is precisely what you suggest. while this may not be apparent through the pornography of the press & their self serving reproduction – it is apparent on the ground. & i’ve read many, many reports from soldiers that say exactly that – that they feel this shift
again it is a perfect mirroring of vietnam before & during “hearts & minds” – where even soldiers believe the stick & carrot approach would work found the only one that worked, that guaranteed their ‘securiity’ was the stick. they simply could not win “hearts & minds’ with arguments that transparently never really had a follow through for the peasantry for example & often conflcted openly with their real interests outside of a political context. this is even more ture in iraq – where the attemps at ‘hearts & minds’ have been cursory & have not been able toi hide the contempt with which the arab people are treated generally & the iraquis in particular
it is as if the work of ‘hearts & mind’ never left the saigon elites. in vietnam it is clear that there were sectors that really ‘believed’ in it as a policy & presumed a long term approavh (this is evident in ward justs(?) novel) but it was condemned to collapse in part because behind it laid no substative offer or even substantive means. in iraq – all this talk rests & stays with the elite – & it would be comic if it were not so horrific – a greater portion of this elite have lived outside iraq for the greater part of their lives
no a war of national liberation has clearly begun & will not end until victory – or at least the utter defeat of the occupier
still steel
still steel

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 11 2004 23:57 utc | 37

http://blueslyrics.tripod.com/artistswithsongs/skip_james_2.htm#hard_time_killing_floor
killing floor
1 – the slaughtering room of an abattoir, a slaughter house, where animals were brought to be killed and cut up. Particularly in the Chicago Stockyards area (more info, picture) many black newcomers from the South found jobs during the 20’s, 30’s and 40’s working on the killing floors. Click here to read about a modern day killing floor. Metaphorically being on the “killing floor” means being in trouble with little way out or being so depressed (primarily by the loss of a lover) that he (generally) feels like he is going to die, having hit rock bottom and with nothing left to lose;
2 – Jack King suggests: “When a woman gets over on you and you just can’t seem to do anything about it, and you can’t stay away from her even though you do your best, and your mind is all a mess from it. You promise yourself to never see her again and wind up at her door a minute later. She has you on the Killing Floor.” Thanks to Jack King for this contribution to the list.
__________
This phrase can be found in:
Chris Duarte, .32 Blues, Howlin’ Wolf, Killing Floor, Skip James, Hard Time Killing Floor
links at site

Posted by: dk | Dec 12 2004 1:01 utc | 38

dk
thank you, really . have wanted to know for such a long time & though my scholarship i think is measured in other areas – there are areas like the blues that i know very well but not enough & want to keep on learning. ot but there was a book i read many many years ago – i think by charles shaar murray on robert johnson, charlie christian & jimi hendrix -‘crosstown traffic’ – the transformation of terrible knowledge into a life giving energy for the dark times
so thank you
still steel

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 12 2004 1:13 utc | 39

And Sonny Boy Williamson sang:
Dont start me to talkin….I’ll tell everything I know

Posted by: anna missed | Dec 12 2004 1:35 utc | 40

“Al- Sistani himself has recently stated that the first order of business stemming from elected power, would be an end to occupation.”
Sistani is speaking to an audience. An end to the occupation, yes. Under rules set down by the UN, occupation automatically ends with the adoption of the new constitution and establishment of the new government, in this particular case at the end of 2005. At that point, the US is no longer legally responsible for the physical security of Iraq. Iraq will have sovereign borders and full legal responsibility for its own security, and any foreign forces will require the formal permission of the Iraqi government to maintain bases and station troops within the country. (Hence the negotiated SOFA.) “End to occupation” is not synonymous with an end to the presence, on Iraqi soil, of US or other foreign troops – the former does not automatically entail the latter, which is left soley to the deliberation and judgement of the new sovereign authority. Sistani is aware of the distinction. Soon after the elections, a date will be announced by the Iraqis for an end to the occupation. Viola.
The transfer of sovereignty that was, with much rhetorical fanfare, claimed to have taken place earlier this year, takes place, in fact, a year from now, when the occupation comes to a complete end.

Posted by: Pat | Dec 12 2004 1:43 utc | 41

Um, that would be “Voila.”
Not Viola.

Posted by: Pat | Dec 12 2004 1:51 utc | 42

Somebody just said vodka’s going a beggin.
Count me in.

Posted by: FlashHarry | Dec 12 2004 2:15 utc | 43

Another thing that reminds of Vietnam Dangers on the Ground in Iraq Lead to Increased Use of Airlifts

In an effort to reduce the amount of military cargo hauled in vulnerable ground convoys across Iraq, the U.S. Air Force has begun airlifting much larger quantities of materiel to bases around the country.

U.S. cargo aircraft are ferrying more materiel from base to base within Iraq. In the past month, the amount of military items hauled daily by air has jumped from about 350 tons to about 450 tons, an increase of nearly 29 percent

plans being drawn up for review by Army Gen. John P. Abizaid, the commander of all U.S. forces in the region, call for an even greater increase in supplies delivered by airlift — up to about 600 tons a day. Such a rise could put a serious strain on the existing air fleet, officers said.

The insurgency systematic attack on the supply lines have their effect. The next step will be attacks by multi-company insurgent units on single US strongholds. They did read their Giap.

Posted by: b | Dec 12 2004 9:40 utc | 44

Sistani is speaking to an audience.
Yes he is. But I would guess his main audience is iraqi.
“End to occupation” is not synonymous with an end to the presence, on Iraqi soil, of US or other foreign troops
I think it is synonymous to the iraqis, which is his audience. Considering Sistanis whole power-base is his popularity as a religious leader (as I have understood the clerical system of the Shia in Iraq you choose which imam you think is best and then listen to – and generally follow – his advice), it would be most unwise for him to play wordgames with that audience. Or so it seems to me.

Posted by: A swedish kind of death | Dec 12 2004 10:00 utc | 45

@B:
Read the entire article you cited in the print edition of the Post today very carefully.
They’ve been damned effective whoever they’re reading.
“The next step will be attacks by multi-company insurgent units on single US strongholds.”
Why should the insurgency, at this point, adopt different tactics?
It seems to me that if they mass, they get wasted real bad by those chain-gun thingys.
Mortars, rockets, squad-size infiltrations of “suicider” types, and more of the same old stick in my mind. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
They’re probably also checking out their Stinger missle inventories right now.

Posted by: FlashHarry | Dec 13 2004 3:54 utc | 46

“I think it is synonymous to the iraqis, which is his audience.”
His audience is indeed Iraqis.
He’s not playing word games. He’s very careful with the words he uses. An end to occupation means an end to foreign control and oversight in Iraq. It is the point at which sovreignty reverts to the Iraqis themselves, when they are no longer subject to the dictates, directives, and whims of others, as they have been for more than a year and a half. This is obviously not unimportant, and as “luck” would have it that occupation is scheduled to end relatively shortly. To say, on the other hand, that the first order of business after the elections will be to set a timetable for the complete withdrawal of foreign forces would be extremely unwise, as no one knows when it will be possible for those forces to leave without further endangering the shaky endeavor to which Sistani has given his endorsement and which tens of millions of Iraqis are counting on: the drafting of a new constitution and the estabishment of a popularly elected representative government. If there is no guarantee whatsoever that this will fly with foreign forces present, do its odds improve as soon as they depart?
I’m sorry if it sounded cynical. Sistani is carefully assuring his audience of one thing that he can – namely, that the hated occupation will end in a timely manner, that Iraq will not be the West Bank, that the sovreignty that is rightfully theirs must soon be returned to them. At this point, what else is there to assure anyone of?

Posted by: Pat | Dec 13 2004 6:26 utc | 47

Eight US Marines killed in western Iraq

Posted by: Anonymous | Dec 13 2004 10:50 utc | 48

@Pat
Nothing, assurances are like forcasting a sunny day, or a hit record. I would have to conclude that the presence of foreign troops only delays what must come, eventually in any case, the political restructuring of the nation. I do’nt think either the Sunnis or the Shiites (or the Kurds) desire the breakup of the nation, as the regional pressures would undermine there own dreams of autonomity, through osmosis of ethnic affiliation from other nations. It is a fundamental problem of the US to be involved in creating a government of exiles that have no affiliation to the deeper seated evolution culturally on the ground, as it must surely fail in the ability to generate the political cohesion necessary to hold the nation together (god forbid that is the plan).
So in response to you’re excllent question, the nation will be held together whether the US decides to stay (in a diminishing returns state of conflict) or, actually giving some faith to what ever may ensue, in all its likely chaos, that an actual Iraqi national solidarity may emerge independent of US concern, and thats where the rubber hits the road.

Posted by: anna missed | Dec 13 2004 11:27 utc | 49

What I ment to say……minus the drink last night
…………..the nation will be held together because of its own internal necessity
to remain independent, both from its neighbors, and most definitely the occupation, so the US can continue its diminishing returns policy of undermining future cohesion through the imposition of its will, or contrarily, show some faith in the fact that real sovereignty in Iraq will be achieved only in the absence of overt outside influence.

Posted by: anna missed | Dec 13 2004 20:33 utc | 50

anna missed
each day they see victory
every night i see their defeat
if not tonight, tommorrow
what was hidden certainly in latin & central america, what was hidden in south east asia has been revealed openly in the slaughterhouse that is iraq
america can never, never win back or recuperate ‘faith’ in its ‘good deeds’ – yes, it has divided the world into the us & them & the them cannot hide behind the convenient fantasies of the cold war to legitimises the wars of terror that america conducted against third world people
no here in iraq we see the monster in all its brutal glory & the world will not forget that as it forgot & forgave the evil war against the chilean & nicaraguan people
it is strange to the extent – that the middle east has not really created affinities in the west – largely i suppose because an arabophobia & an implicit rascism but mostly ignorance – that it is in the middle east that the nature of the imperial project has been revealed
the u s has gone beyond any normal acceptance of human or even of military behaviour – it is acting outside any moral law – certainly those of decency & of humanity
this day they bomb fallujah in relation to the deaths of 9 g i’s & they think that they will the war in this way – their sorry deeds are telling the tale faster than really is imaginable
& the jingoism of the media has been finally unmasked – the grande dames washington post & new york times revealed as nothing but mouthpieces – what was the name of gotti’s lawyer – cutler (?) – well they are vulgar forms of that man & certainly not in any sense on a higher moral plane
& tonight arab nationalists tariq aziz, saddam hussein & other political prisoners go on hunger strike
what a wonderful world

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 13 2004 21:09 utc | 51

@anna missed
We cannot, if we are to uphold our obligations under the rules of occupation, leave the country before that occupation expires. Physical security is our legal responsibility and we’d be in violation of the terms of occupation if we departed while that responsibility is ours. This would be true with or without the on-going guerilla warfare. (If I had bothered to consider this back during the presidential campaigns, I would have been much less harsh with Kerry and the DNC, who it occurs to me now were in a most unhappy position, and not chiefly of their own making. Proposing to send more troops for stabilization and pacification, rather than bring them all home toot sweet, was probably the best of some very unpalatable options. The Bush administration countered by trotting out the usual suspects to say that, really, CENTCOM’s got all the soldiers it needs, but this has never been the case. Then, of course, the administration turned around and approved higher troop levels.) When occupation ends in 2006, the Iraqis can ask us to leave – we cannot force them to let us stay. They can invite whomever else they want to invite, but they are going to need, for some while, forces and assets to supplement their own, of that I have no doubt. As long as the pissed off Ba’athists and Sunni clerics and their jihadi friends reject the Shi’ia-majority government that is now inevitable, the new state will be in considerable peril. Its chances do not improve with nothing but as-yet weak Iraqi security forces at work. As you indicate, there will be no forcing the insurgency to accept whatever government arises – that is up to it and its supporters – but if they think they can bring down the house, even without hope of successfully installing (or reinstalling) themselves in its place, they will.
But I guess this leads us back to a disagreement on the nature of the insurgency, which, unlike yourself, I don’t estimate as having an even latent nationalist profile. I certainly don’t see it as a force of “national liberation” and am extremely doubtful that most Iraqis wish in any way, shape, or form to be “liberated” by it.

Posted by: Pat | Dec 13 2004 22:18 utc | 52

@Pat
Physical security is our legal responsibility and we’d be in violation of the terms of occupation if we departed while that responsibility is ours.
Was the war legal?
Was Abu Ghraib legal?
Is keeping every male between 15 and 55 in Fallujah before bombing the city into ground legal?
Are, most probably, 100,000 Iraqi war victims legal?
Are raids on happless Iraqis because of bad intelligence, lack of interpreters, stupidity legal?
Is hiring US companies with Iraqi money from the Oil-for-food program to paint Iraqi schools legal?
Dear Pat – NOBODY would accuse the US of doing something illegal if they would just LEAVE. And please don´t try to explain that legality is of any concern for this administration.
The most problematic and letal party in Iraq is the US occupation force. If that force leaves there still will be trouble. But it will be much less trouble and things will settle. To wait for a new puppet regime to invite the US to stay is just a recipe to prolong the inevitable and to dig more graves.

Posted by: b | Dec 13 2004 22:46 utc | 53

The Pentagon’s Neurosis
Fallujah Gulag
By DOUGLAS LUMMIS
The U.S. Military, the newspapers tell us, has conquered Fallujah. But here you must read the news carefully. It seems that the U.S. military is in control of (most of) the area of Fallujah, and of (what is left of) its buildings, but not of its people. The people, some 300,000 of them, are outside the city, waiting to go home.
So the U.S. Military is facing a dilemma. The point of the Fallujah operation was to make it possible to hold elections in January. To carry out elections in Fallujah, the U.S. Military will have let Fallujah’s residents return home. But what if, after they return home, they start fighting against the U.S. occupation, as they did before?
According to a December 5 article by Ann Barnard in the Boston Globe, the U.S. military has devised a plan to solve this dilemma. They are going to “funnel Fallujans to so-called citizen processing centers on the outskirts of the city to compile a database of their identities through DNA testing and retina scans.” Then they will give each person a nametag, which they will be required to wear at all times. Presumably people not wearing nametags will be in danger of being seen as guerrilla fighters, and shot.
The Military also wants to organize all Fallujan men into “military-style battalions”, and force them to work, cleaning up and rebuilding the destroyed city.
It seems the U.S. military is still under the illusion that in Fallujah there are two types of people, “terrorists” and “ordinary residents”.So if you can distinguish which is which, and allow only the “ordinary residents”, clearly marked, back into the city, peace will be achieved. But when the “ordinary residents” return to the city, some of them will surely resume guerrilla operations – especially after they see what has been done to their homes.
To prevent this, they will be organized into work battalions, probably under U.S. or Iraqi military commanders.
So this is the point to which these American Bringers-Of-Democracy have been driven to? Where can we find a parallel for the kind of social organization they are planning? In German history, the concentration camp. In U.S. history, the relocation centers of World War II. In Russian history, the gulag.
I think this mad “Fallujah plan” will, or should, go down in history as one of those perfect, crystalline moments when imperial domination shows its true nature. During the Vietnam War we had the immortal words, “We had to destroy the village to save it.” That summed it all up beautifully. The Fallujah Plan expresses the same contradiction. To save Fallujah’s “freedom” it has to be destroyed as a city and turned into a prison.
But is it possible to transform an entire city of angry people into a prison? Is it possible to “process” 300,000 people, “process” meaning, transform them from citizens into prisoners in their own city, all in a couple of weeks to be in time for the election? This sounds less like a plan than a mad fantasy dreamed up by a group of people frustrated and driven to the wall. The U.S. military assault on Fallujah succeeded. It was, Pentagon officials boast, a great military victory. The U.S. Military did everything a military can do. They shot the people they could shoot, wrecked the buildings they could wreck, and took control of the city. If the city of Fallujah is its land and buildings, they have won it. But if the city is its people, they have not won it. When they let the people back in, they will be back where they started. They won, and yet they lost. No wonder they are beginning to show neurotic symptoms.
Douglas Lummis is a political scientist living in Okinawa and the author of Radical Democracy. Lummis can be reached at: ideaspeddlers@mpd.biglobe.ne.j

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 13 2004 22:49 utc | 54

Dahr Jamail interviewed by Charles Shaw : Another man pointed out that if there were a civil war, no Shia or Kurdish attack on Fallujah could ever possibly compare to the devastation the US military has caused there. I think he makes a good point.

Posted by: b real | Dec 13 2004 23:13 utc | 55

The legality of the Iraq war is a matter of dispute. Our basic obligations in the resulting occupation are not – as much.
Crimes of war are so much easier to address, and redress, than crimes of peace.
So we should pull out, b? Completely? That’s the ticket right now for a better-off Iraq?
Much less trouble? For whom?

Posted by: Pat | Dec 13 2004 23:22 utc | 56

@Pat
So we should pull out, b?
The US should, in public, guarantee the outer borders of Iraq. Any state that would try to cross the boarders with force should be on notice that there would be serious retaliations. This can be done through air power from outside Iraq.
Set asside the $100 billion “emergency request” of the DoD for 2005, 2006, 2007, … and give it to Iraqis on the ground, i.e. to families, not parties.
And then – just leave.
Better for everyone. The Iraqis will have to fight for a new state system and the will do so, and it will not be without violence. Someone will come up as the “leading force”, maybe Sistani, maybe someone else.
In the end, I am convinced, it will be less bloody than any scenario where the US troops stay.
Less trouble for the Iraqis, the US and the world in total.

Posted by: b | Dec 13 2004 23:46 utc | 57

b
once the grand general giap was on a plane to saigon – this is after the war & he was identified by some americcan veterans whop were revisiting their scenes of war; they recognised him by the etiquette on his baggage. they asked, ” general, what do you really think of american soldiers”. giap replied courteouslly that american soldiers were like other soldiers – when they are directed well – they fight well. – but they lost – it wasn’t their fault he sd – it was the fault of your leadership. he suggested to them that they should never invade another country. giap sd if you respect for your own honor & liberty then you should respect the honor & liberty of others.
this the united states is incapable of doing. of respecting others

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 14 2004 0:15 utc | 58

I have yet to read, though am sure analyses exist, detailed reasons why the u.s. should stay in Iraq. ‘Stay’ is multifarious of course: occupation, security colonialism, etc. Glued into mainstream media, ‘staying’ is just common sense. The insinuation of this rhetoric is Iraqis will kill each other. But, on what scale and scope? Worse than now? Like Cambodia? Any worse than Zaqire? Or as nightmarish as Rwanda?
Assessment of the situation requires comparative analysis of the struggle’s composition: ethnicity, religion, economic, political, historical. What analogy is appropriate?
I tend, based on what I now know, to be in b’s camp on this, though there is no way u.s. political establishment will permit retreat from the twin objectives of military base maintenance and control of oil extraction.

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 14 2004 0:37 utc | 59

Perhaps comparative analyses are unhelpful to predict the aftermath of an end to u.s. occupation?
In any case, if the u.s. occupation ended, and u.s. pulled out of Iraq in toto, the most likely scenario would be reassertion of sunni/baathist control of military resources, massive suppression of shia political aspirations. Kurdistan would be a nightmare. Iran and Turkey would likely be drawn into the conflicts.
But again, would this outcome be worse than u.s. occupation?

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 14 2004 1:03 utc | 60

slothrop
let me be clear. the illegal & immoral occupation of iraq by the united states must end. it is an evil in & of itself. the evil that men do must stop. there must be a vital opposition to this occupation which is no different in character or in aims than the german armies in western & eastern europe.
there can be no ifs & buts. this is a black & white issue. the invasion of iraq – a sovereign nation – by a criminal invading force – who like the germans before them implicitly attacked all hitherto international jurisprudence in doing so – must end. if it is not stopped by international effort – it will be stopped in the battlefield. if not today, tommorrow
there can be no shading of intention. the intention to invade iraq remains illegal. its perverse immorality – a sign of our own decay as citizens – of our involvement in a living world
this weekend witnessed a bombing that has parallels only in vietnam laos & cambodia. the people of this sovereign nation are being slaughtered. do not forget that. ever. these are not ‘terrorists’ – they are people forced to defend their rich & cultured nation from the barbaric forces which mean to do it harm. great harm. the proof is already on the table. we do not have to do guesswork. the criminality of the american enterprise exists without question. our accession to that criminality shames us in terms of our immediate history & of the future
the illegal occupying armies must leave – if not today, tommorrow

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 14 2004 1:33 utc | 61

@Pat from some other planet.
“uphold our obligations under the rules of occupation”
“our legal responsibility”
“in violation of the terms of occupation”
“responsibility”
“we cannot force them to let us stay. They can invite whomever else they want to invite”
We can all remember that smirking little schmuck almost choking if his disbelief when some reporter asked him about International Law.
I don’t buy this fawned sincerity of yours about America’s concern with upholding laws, rules, or regulations – and neither does the overwhelming majority of the people on this planet.
And the fact that, in your estimation, the “insurgency” does not have an “even latent” nationalistic profile, in my estimation, indicates that you, along with the Bush cliche, must be relying on some a priori or intimate knowledge of Iraqi culture that seems to have gone over the head of most actual Iraqi experts.

Posted by: DM | Dec 14 2004 1:58 utc | 62

rgiap
I’m not searching for a justication for the war. the moral justification of the occupation is aporetic if it is likely that a sudden withdrawal of troops would cause even greater grief to the people of Iraq.
DM
In all things read by me so far, I know of no one who argues the insurgency is one of national liberation. I want you to refer to/offer such resources, please.

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 14 2004 3:30 utc | 63

You asked us to bring it on

Posted by: A message from the Iraqi resistance | Dec 14 2004 5:16 utc | 64

I was just about to post the Iraqi Resistance video and found someone had just beat me to it. What more could one ask in terms of a statement of nationalism? For those who are wondering about provenance I found it on a thread at kos and the original link was to informaiton clearing house. I cannot vouch for its authenticity but was personally struck by its courageous and compassionate tone. If more Americans posessed this depth of understanding we would not be in Iraq.
Also can’t help but note how clearly and directly it reflects the earlier posts made by RGiap and DM.

Posted by: conchita | Dec 14 2004 6:04 utc | 65

For those who are unable to download the “Message From the Iraqi Rsistance,” here is an alternate route via a kos thread. Sorry I still do not know how to link, but the url is: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/12/14/01137/023.

Posted by: conchita | Dec 14 2004 6:10 utc | 66

Interesting analyse by John Robb again STATE FAILURE 101
Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs tells what is important for Iraqis as for everyone. First basic needs, than safety etc. at last self determination. The occupation forces are working in the oposite direction. They set self determination via elections as the first aim of their plans and local safety and infrastructure at the bottom – unwinable.

Posted by: b | Dec 14 2004 9:43 utc | 67

@slothrop
In all things read by me so far, I know of no one who argues the insurgency is one of national liberation. I want you to refer to/offer such resources, please.
(re response to Pat:)
I don’t estimate as having an even latent nationalist profile. I certainly don’t see it as a force of “national liberation” and am extremely doubtful that most Iraqis wish in any way, shape, or form to be “liberated” by it.
I would have thought that by now, only the die-hards and the dead-enders would be sticking to the story of America’s “liberation of Iraq”.
Looking for some middle-of-the-road commentary, I was trying to find some quote by Juan Cole actually saying “national liberation” but without such a reference at hand, I can at least offer this article which implies as much:-
If America were Iraq, What would it be Like?
For something a little less subtle, John Pilger has spent many years following the obscenity of sanctions.
John Pilger / New Statesman UK – April 2004 This is a War of Liberation and We Are the Enemy
You could also try a goggle search for articles by Tom Engelhardt, Robert Fisk, Pepe Escobar, William R. Polk, Mark Seddon, – and many many more.
None of these journalists, historians, writers, seem to have much of a problem in equating the “insurgency” with “national liberation”.
I don’t think there is much point in getting bogged down in the semantics of this. Is it “national liberation”, “jihad-ism”, “Shia-ism”, “Sunni-ism”? Doesn’t really matter. The basic facts are:-
Americans don’t give a shit about Iraqis – never did.
Iraqis now know that Americans don’t give a shit about Iraqis.
Iraqis now hate Americans, and don’t want anything to do with them in any way, shape, or form.
They want you to piss-off. Yankee, Go Home !

Posted by: DM | Dec 14 2004 11:38 utc | 68

b, I have heard it reasonably argued that elections (to facilitate that self-determination) have been scheduled far too soon, resulting in a most unhelpful compression (and perhaps collision) of tasks. The occupation is awful, it is ugly, it is deplored and deeply resented, and there’s an understandable rush to bring it to an end. In order for it to end there must be elections (on a date determined by the UN), the ratification of a constitution (ditto), and finally executive and legislative elections (ditto again). These all must take place in a country that is woefully insecure, racked by violent conflict, troubled by rampant crime, beset by terrible infrastructure failures and suffering phenomenal unemployment.
Not a recipe for success, is it? But the military forces don’t determine the timetable of political events. That is out of their hands.

Posted by: Pat | Dec 14 2004 12:01 utc | 69

So, the US Army has to be in Iraq to assure stability of the occupied country. Well, the trouble is, they don’t and they never did it. Basic violence and crimes have doubled or tripled since the invasion, power and water infrastructure are still a complete crap unheard of since, well, since before Sumer probably – at least for water. So, what the heck is the US Army doing for the Iraqis? And the correct answer is not “what are the Iraqis doing for the US Army”.
That said, Pat, you of course have noticed the neat dilemma and bit trap Bush willingly entered. Damn if you do, damn if you don’t. Because indeed there’s no doubt that everyone will blame the US for the big mess that will be a US-Army-free Iraq. And as far as I’m concerned, they’d be right to put part of the blame at the US’ feet – though other blames should be addressed to Iraq’s neighbours and to those Iraqis who will mess up – and are already messing up. But, well, just like post-USSR Afghanistan was a complete chaos with warlords fighting each other, which, if it didn’t cause more deaths than Soviet occupation, did cause more destructions to the main Afghan cities, a post-Saddam Iraq will be just as much a mixed bag, with some aspects being better than Saddam Iraq, but others being far worse. Saddam wasn’t a case of “If it isn’t broken, don’t fix it”, but “If it’s quite broken, don’t wreck it completely instead of fixing it”.

Posted by: CluelessJoe | Dec 14 2004 15:41 utc | 70

Slightly off topic: does anyone remember those puff-pieces, run about a year ago by the NYTimes and such, about those way-vicious snipers we’d schooled to take out Iraqi snipers in Baghdad and other places? They were the hardest of the hard–they could see around corners, that sort of thing–and I thought at the time that they’d eventually have some difficulties re-adjusting to the calm and quiet of civilian life in, say, Crawford, Texas…..Well, I haven’t heard or seen a sign of them since then. What happened to them? Have they survived? Mustered out? Upped their kill-ratio? Joined the Red Cross? Hopes were absurdly high that those guys would turn it around….Maybe they found jobs with Mr. Kerek…..Or ended up in that hospital in Germany….

Posted by: alabama | Dec 14 2004 16:35 utc | 71

…might check Maytag

Posted by: b real | Dec 14 2004 17:29 utc | 72

McCain Has ‘No Confidence’ in Rumsfeld

Asked about his confidence in the secretary’s leadership, McCain recalled fielding a similar question a couple weeks ago.
“I said no. My answer is still no. No confidence,” McCain said.
He estimated an additional 80,000 Army personnel and 20,000 to 30,000 more Marines would be needed to secure Iraq.
“I have strenuously argued for larger troop numbers in Iraq, including the right kind of troops linguists, special forces, civil affairs, etc.,” said McCain, R-Ariz. “There are very strong differences of opinion between myself and Secretary Rumsfeld on that issue.”
When asked if Rumsfeld was a liability to the Bush administration, McCain responded: “The president can decide that, not me.”

Posted by: b | Dec 14 2004 18:55 utc | 73

DM
thanks for the articles. I stand corrected, but I suppose I could have been nore specific. Perhaps last Spring, the war looked like a unity of Iraq factions. Not now. I do not seek justification for this hideous occupation. I only want to emphasize as of today, the insurgency is deeply fractured and the shia are increasingly tractable subjects of the occupation.
This could change, of course.

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 14 2004 19:39 utc | 74

slothrop/dm
i do not see the problem in calling this struggle by the resistance a war of liberation – a war of national liberation
there are two comparable situations – one here in france & the other in el salvador
i think you are seeing the lack of a standing army or even an army like the one mao tse tung formed with his military commander lin piao. this absence of standing army does not diminish the military construction of resistance
in france, where the standing army was completely destroyed & either their leaders stayed with petain or went to england or north africa – the first armed resistance to the germans was carried out by a group – ftp – moi – which was a groupment of immigrants mostly of jewish origin but also inclyded many armenians, italians, spaniards & germans carried out very successful aremed actions against the occupier. an armed resistance not unlike what is happening in iraq – it was seperated from the great mass of people who existed in complicated mutiple relation with the occupation – but it expressed its most courageous aspect
their actions were described by germans & by the puppet vichy governement as terrorist – the phrase is repeated very very often in regard to this group who are often calle the ‘affiche rouge’ because a poster the germans pasted on the walls of the capital ‘exposing’ the resistants as jewish foreigners. they killed german soldiers – for the most pat officers, they bombed cinemas & meeting places of the occupier, they derailed trains, they assasinated known collaborationists. they assassinated the economist who was the organiser of french labour going into germany
this group was the beginning of armed resistance – when the resistance started to enlarge – for the most part it was communist or socialist in character (there is still much that is shameful with the conduct of the parti communiste français but the resistance to the occupation is no one of them). the actions in the first instance were limited in number because the number of active resistants was limited – also the availability of material. the actions were often local. they were often meant to be a daily reminder that there were people who were opposed to the occupation
like the iraquis – the resistance because of its situation – could not confront divisions of the german army & when it did it was massacred as in the south . their most succesful action were those that could be described as the ‘war of the flea’ – which is what we are seeing in iraq
once the resistance started to develop – it cover many different groupings – the communists, the socialist, the gaullists, royalists even homegrown french fascists who hated germans. there was a multiple leadership which was often conflictual – again the parallels to iraq are obvious. this created a character of resistance that was often very chaotic
you have other complicated factors – that the leaders of the resistance – had before the war accepted the nazi soviet pact & their leader maurice thorez deserted the french army & escaped to the soviet union. de gaulle also did not have any real legitimacy – he represented certain elements of the french ruling class & his exile in england was to delegitimise him as a leader. whatever authority de gaulle had was through representatives like jean moulin. in brief, you had a chaotic situation in terms of leadership & you has chaotic forms of resistance on the ground. the reality though was that this resistance in some areas more than others carried out their war succesfully because they were meticulous in their targeting
collective punishment – something the americans use in iraq – was used in france by the germans – in fact at the very beginning – those exiled in england were opposed to armed resistance because there was a disproportionate response by the occupier – but i think it had more to do with their own inaction. the occupiers relationship with the resistance was exactly the same as in iraq – it comprimised people, it created puppets, it used ‘local’ forces but in the end it used its brutal monopoly of force to try & destroy the resistance. they destroyed towns & villages – notably oradour sur glane but there are many other comparable situations. fallujah is iraq’s oradour
there was a similar situation in el salvador where the resistance was a groupment of many different elements & from many different classes who were opposed to the dictatorship for many different reasons. the dictatorship – through the united states – possessed a monopoly of force – & it would have been ridiculous to fight as a standing army – they fought in the situations that were appropriate both for the region & for the concrete conditions.
what both forms of resistance balance force with intelligence. an evident intelligence in rapidly interpreting changing situuations & means & actual military intelligence – of knowing practically & in detail what the occupiers are doing. this seems to be true in iraq. we can say that there intelligence capacity is exceptional given their situation & each day it is being consolidated
i think also the religious character has been overstated – in making the iraquis the same targets as bin laden – for there to be enormous confusion by observors external to the actual situation. it seems to me that both sunni & shiite have formations that i would call ‘national’ in character. their ‘islamism’ is really another form of panarabism & i think because the iraquis relaise this war begins with them but that it will be extended to others. i think that it is a correct strategic approach to involve their close neighbours for practical & for ideological reasons
in brief what we are seeing is a war of liberation – of national liberation – a war of resistance
today they say they will ‘judge’ saddam hussein/tariq aziz & others & they are not covered by article 105 of the geneva convention which demands that the prisoner of war has legal representation. this mock repsect of legality is constantlu counterbalanced with an actual & concrete contempt of legality
i would presume they want the ‘judgements’ quickly because they think, stupidly as it turns out – that if they condemn the leadership the communities of resistance will be stopped. the opposite is the truth. each day brings news of greater & greater levels of invention & of consolidation of the resistance
the occupier is doomed to falling into its own grave
still steel

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 14 2004 20:31 utc | 75

@slothrop, check pepe escobar’s article the grand elector SistaniFor the immediate future of Iraq, as crucial as the Sunni-Shi’ite power play will be the interaction between Iraqi nationalists on both sides…Armchair planners dreaming of Balkanization tend to forget that Iraqi nationalism is much more powerful than a sectarian Sunni-Shi’ite division.
and from that dahr jamail interview i linked to earlier –

The resistance is complex because it has so many facets. Parts of it are simply Iraqis who don’t want their country to be occupied. Iraqis who have had family members killed, tortured or humiliated by the military…so they are exacting revenge. Other parts are more organized, where individual cells are operating in coordinated attacks with other cells, but they remain largely decentralized. This is why the conventional US army will never defeat it. Because the resistance has no face, no leader, no fixed organization.
It is really both a defensive reaction to the occupiers, but also is going more on the offensive as the occupation continues. As one Iraqi man old me once, “The invasion was America’s war on Iraq. Now we are seeing the Iraqi’s war against the Americans.”

my read is that the resistance movement is more unified now than ever

Posted by: b real | Dec 14 2004 20:37 utc | 76

One part of the resistance motive in Iraq is not yet analysed.
Iraq was -kind of- a social country. Cheap gas, cheap food, free health care, free education, state owned natural resources. This has changed under the occupation and any halfway knowledgeable Iraqi will have recognized that the future as planed by the US is one of cleptocratic capitalism in its worst form (Reading the TAL laws Bremer die leave in Iraq it is very, very extreme capitalistic. Fortunatly the TAL is internationally illegal.)
Like original Christianity Islam is a quite social religion. This plays together as a part of resistance motive and the socialist point is never mentioned even though it is one main philosophical background of the secular and the islamic parts of the resistance.

Posted by: b | Dec 14 2004 21:10 utc | 77

yugoslavia during the second world war & also greece are both example of an incrementally developed resistance against superior material force
& thanks b for demanding that i follow my nose re transcipt
still steel

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 14 2004 21:21 utc | 78

From Iraq Coalition Casualities:
Total Casualties This Week Have Surpassed 11,000
It Took Only 3 Weeks to Rise from 10,000 to 11,000, Up From 4 Weeks to Go From 9,000 to 10,000 and 5 Weeks from 8,000 to 9,000

It is mainly this kind of statistics I use when I say that the US is fighting a lost war.

Posted by: Anonymous | Dec 14 2004 23:58 utc | 79

That was me @ 06:58
My personal info seems to disappear after I make a comment (Win XP, Opera 7.23), and seeing how many times unnamned turns up, I would say I´m not alone with this problem.

Posted by: A swedish kind of death | Dec 15 2004 0:04 utc | 80

Riverbend.

Posted by: beq | Dec 15 2004 0:38 utc | 81

rgiap
The french and el salvadoran occupations/wars are not good analogies because in Iraq, the occupation must benefit the majority shia who have long suffered under the rule of a sunni elite.
Maybe the bulgarian experience is more consistent w/ your argument. I’m just throwing out ideas. The soviet Union’s occupation assisted subsequent ascendence of peasantry and confiscation by the peasantry of borgeois properties. Maybe this is the better comparison, in which the case for a successful occupation might be earned.

Posted by: Anonymous | Dec 15 2004 1:26 utc | 82

simply, what i suggest is that the resistance fulfills all or most of the conditions of a war of national liberation
there are many precedents
superior military force cannot win a war. only a moral force can. the u s occupation is intensely & profoundly immoral
the human factor is decisive & it is this human factor that the iraquis have in abundance. they are the cradle of our civilisation. us imperialism is merely a passing, transient aberration in the conduct of humanity
still steel

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 15 2004 2:32 utc | 83