Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
December 18, 2004
I am not a …

Fear factor: 44 percent of Americans queried in Cornell national poll favor curtailing some liberties for Muslim Americans

In a study to determine how much the public fears terrorism, almost half of respondents polled nationally said they believe the U.S. government should — in some way — curtail civil liberties for Muslim Americans…
…
Conversely, 48 percent of respondents nationally said they do not believe that civil liberties for Muslim Americans should be restricted.
…
[Professor] Shanahan notes: ".. our findings highlight that personal religiosity as well as exposure to news media are two important correlates of support for restrictions. We need to explore why these two very important channels of discourse may nurture fear rather than understanding."

Also from the study (PDF):

In November, 2004 37% of respondents believe a terrorist attack within the next 12 months is likely, compared to 90% in November 2002.

Nearly half  (47%) of respondents support greater power for the government to monitor Internet activities, while nearly two‐thirds (63%) agree that the government should be able to detain indefinitely suspected terrorists.

As now only 37% expect a terror attack, contrarian thinking lets me believe that there is one right around the corner. Even a small incident, propagandated as Muslim terror through the news media, would put the majority in the US into a very dangerous mood.

Time to recapitulate:

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
…

Comments

anna missed
yes. what a great book, though rgiap would not piss on P if the latter was on fire.
just kidding.
De
thanks. as usual.

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 21 2004 19:24 utc | 101

Good grief. I fucked up again: it’s the preterite who may know the truth by not knowing the truth and bending to the will of the truth.
awright. I’m gonna read walter benjamin while listening to steve earle.

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 21 2004 19:30 utc | 102

slothrom
when i was a young fella i had delusions of being the polymath caudwell – haven’t googled – but i don’t know if his studies in a dying culture & further studies in a dying culture is still available – but they blew me away at 15
thomas – not exaclty – he’s safe from my acetone laced urine for the moment – though he’s a very different kind of writer i’ve always preferred the imperfections of agee but certainly the younger generation – even vollmann – no i wouldn’t give them the time of day – if it was needed
my dear slothrop – you & deanander are a bit like albert ayler & pharaoh sanders with anna missed doing his elvin jones ‘thang’ & ol b the tank driver swinging some interesting vocals
think of myself as sun ra in his aluminium hats period

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 21 2004 19:50 utc | 103

obviouslly i meant you dear slothrop
& in my work – benjaminian as it is – i use citations – all the time – & anything – the only work i exclude is from writers who exclude others – directly implicity – madame rand & her clitoral conservatism is formellement interdit

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 21 2004 19:53 utc | 104

See slothrop, you bend to the will of the truth and are enlightened enough to make it into the band.
Meanwhile poor citizen is left to bang on his rights, rattles his representatives and yodel his constitution. still want to trade?

Posted by: Citizen | Dec 21 2004 20:50 utc | 105

citizen – pour toi
CHRISTOPHER CAUDWELL:
SELECTED BIBLIOGRAPHY
compiled by Ralph Dumain
BOOKS BY CHRISTOPHER CAUDWELL (1907-1937)
(Pseudonym of Christopher St. John Sprigg)
Collected Poems. Manchester: Carcanet: 1986.
The Concept of Freedom. London: Lawrence and Wishart, 1977.
The Crisis in Physics, edited with an introduction by Professor H[yman] Levy. London: John Lane, 1939 [repr. 1949].
Illusion and Reality; a Study of the Sources of Poetry. New York: International Publishers, 1967.
Romance and Realism: A Study in English Bourgeois Literature, edited by Samuel Hynes. Princeton, N.J: Princeton University Press, 1970.
Scenes and Actions: Unpublished Manuscripts, selected, edited, and introduced by Jean Duparc and David Margolies. London: New York: Routledge & Kegan Paul, 1986.
Studies and Further Studies in a Dying Culture, introduction by Sol Yurick. New York: Monthly Review Press, 1971. [Reprint of Studies in a Dying Culture (1938) & Further Studies in a Dying Culture (1949)]
This My Hand [novel]. London: Hamish Hamilton, 1936.
[Note: The author also published several books of crime fiction and on aeronautics under his real name.]
STUDIES OF CHRISTOPHER CAUDWELL
Margolies, David N. The Function of Literature: A Study of Christopher Caudwell’s Aesthetics. New York: International Publishers, 1969.
Sheehan, Helena. Marxism and the Philosophy of Science. Atlantic Highlands, NJ: Humanities Press, 1985. See pp. 350-385. [See web page link below.]
Thompson, E.P. Making History: Writings on History and Culture. New York: The New Press, 1994. See pp. 78-140. Here is Thompson at his most philosophically insightful and brilliant, possibly the best analytical synopsis of Caudwell.
[There are other critiques, studies, debates, and some other recent monographs on Caudwell, but these sources are the best and most readily available introductions.]
(& some bouzouki)

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 21 2004 21:20 utc | 106

”
The discussion, which took place during the high tide of zhdanovism and lysenkoism in the world communist movement and the Soviet campaign against cosmopolitanism, revealed more about the state of British marxism in its time under the pressure of these events than about Caudwell. Caudwell’s emphasis on genetics was one of the reasons why he posthumously ran into so much trouble at this time. Even his most severe critics, however, could not help but acknowledge his originality and brilliance. In the course of the discussion, there were those who came to his defense. Various contributors, particularly George Thomson and Alick West, answered the attacks fairly capably.
However, even Caudwell’s most devoted defenders, however appreciative of his insights and aware of his profundity, have tended to see his importance for them primarily as a home product and haven’t fully grasped his importance within the development of marxist philosophy as a whole. Those on both sides have made far too much of Haldane’s ‘quarry of ideas’ metaphor, probably far more than Haldane intended by it, missing Caudwell’s essential contribution, which was a tightly constructed and unified analysis of the nature of bourgeois culture and the socialist alternative. He has been interpreted too randomly, as a source of insights rather than as the bearer of a coherent world view.
The years have passed with his philosophical contribution falling into oblivion. Even in an article giving a rather astute analysis of the tradition of British marxism in relation to science, which actually rapped the knuckles of contemporary British marxists for their neglect of this tradition, Hilary and Steven Rose never mentioned Caudwell. Calling for a revival of discussion of the theme of bourgeois versus socialist science, opened in Britain by Hessen and effectively closed by Lysenko, they stated that British marxists in the 1930s never unravelled the argument, obviously ignorant of Caudwell’s contribution in this domain.
Now and then, someone remembers, but almost entirely in terms of literary theory. David Margolies’s study of Caudwell’s aesthetics was appreciative, but left the impression that the central focus of Caudwell was a theory of the social function of literature. His central focus, I believe, was Weltanschauung and his interest in literature fell into place around this. Francis Mulhern’s analysis of Caudwell tried to see his literary theory more in terms of its underlying philosophy. Something of Caudwell managed sporadically to break though a screen of althusserian misinterpretation, and what basically came out of it was: ‘Christopher Caudwell is an historicist, but not every historicist is Christopher Caudwell’. The New Left Review was to swing even wider off the mark with Terry Eagleton’s passing dismissal of Caudwell, summed up in the conclusion that there is ‘little, except negatively, to be learned from him’. Caudwell’s work was written off as stalinist, idealist, speculative, erratic, ‘bereft of a theory of the superstructure’, ‘punctuated by hectic forays into and out of alien territories’ and ‘strewn with hair-raising theoretical vulgarities’.
A breath of fresh air came with EP Thompson’s attempt to settle his intellectual accounts with Caudwell. It was an extremely perceptive and constructive analysis of Caudwell’s work as a whole, which said many things that had been crying out to be said. He sought to highlight what were Caudwell’s most central and creative preoccupations, which he rightly noted have been misunderstood by younger marxists. Insisting that Caudwell’s work was more significant than had been realised, with its impulse not yet exhausted, Thompson suggesed a new way into the evaluation of Caudwell.
He proposed seeing Caudwell as an anatomist of ideologies, as brilliantly laying bare the deep structure of the characteristic illusions of the epoch, as analysing the generation of modes of intellectual self-mystification. It was, Thompson asserted, a brave, even promethean, venture: to effect a rupture with a whole received world view. It was ‘the most heroic effort of any British marxist to think his own intellectual time’. Caudwell was walking abroad in his world, encountering the largest ideas and issues and not retreating into the introverted security where marxists existed in a universe of self-validating texts. What resulted from his efforts was, in Thompson’s opinion, a body of thought that was more interesting, more complex and more heretical than has been supposed. In refusing the orthodox closures offered by reflection theory and the base/superstructure model, Caudwell was opening the door to a more creative tradition. Thompson was far from uncritical of Caudwell, however, but considered his thought of such extraordinary vitality and relevance that it presented itself for a renewed interrogation.
To appreciate Caudwell’s full stature as a marxist thinker, he should not be seen simply as a source for random insights, but as a philosopher who made an original and highly integrated contribution to the development of marxist philosophy that has yet to be grasped and assimilated by other marxists.
In terms of the problematic of this book, that is, the conjuncture of science, philosophy, and politics within marxism, Caudwell offered a most highly developed position illuminating the interrelations. His was a most tightly constructed and plausible argument, analysing the variety of ways these spheres have converged historically, focusing on the chaos of the later bourgeois period and on the new integration that must be effected by marxists.”
helena sheehan

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 21 2004 21:25 utc | 107

University College Dublin, Ireland
————————————————————————
George Thomson and Ancient Greece
Richard Seaford
University of Exeter
How did drama come into being? How did abstract thought come into being? These are just two of the many topics to which George Thomson made a massive contribution. They are, it seems to me, of great interest, and of importance to the understanding of ourselves. For the answers to them the study of Ancient Greece is essential. And yet nowadays they are, along with other such basic questions, almost never even asked by professional Hellenists, who, if challenged, would mostly reply that the answers to them must be mere speculation.
That reply would be mistaken. But it would in fact not be the real reason why such questions are not asked. Anyone familiar with classical scholarship knows that speculation is what it is doing most of the time: speculation in classical scholarship is respectable enough, but only if it is empirical and contained within narrow limits. The real reasons why such questions are not asked are firstly that they are difficult – to be more precise, they require the combination of skills which Thomson had but with the advance of over-specialisation is increasingly rare -, and secondly that the questions cannot be answered other than by exploration of the socio-historical process by which abstract thought and drama were produced, and that is the kind of understanding – of the relationship between society and its cultural products – from which most Hellenists instinctively recoil, whether in Ancient Greece or in their own society.
Now the two questions I have selected are not merely historical ones. Greek philosophy and Greek drama reached a very high level surprisingly soon after their first appearance. They have certain characteristics (for example, the interplay of opposites in presocratic philosophy, or the centrality of suffering in tragedy) which have been so influential that we take them for granted. Thomson showed how these and other specific qualities of the earliest philosophy and drama cannot be understood without consideration of how philosophy and drama came into being. In both cases what he has revealed is the effect of social change on certain patterns of myth or ritual.
Now here it is sometimes objected not just that these origins are unknowable but that they are irrelevant. After all, it is said, even if it could be shown how philosophy derives from myth or drama from ritual, philosophy is not myth and drama is not ritual. This objection is, of course, a denial of dialectics, and may take the form of an oddly self-limiting pride in an exclusively synchronic perspective. Of course tragedy is not ritual; it is ritual transformed into something else, just as presocratic philosophy is not mythical thought but mythical thought transformed into something else. Thomson is never reductionist. But the something else is not entirely other than what it is transformed from; and its specific nature cannot be understood in ignorance of its origin.
After this rather abstract opening, let us look at a concrete example of Thomson at work, not on the origins of tragedy (a question too complex even to summarise here), but on the role of the Furies in Aeschylus’ Oresteia. The Oresteia dramatises the murder of Agamemnon by his wife Klytaimnestra in league with her paramour Aigisthos and the consequent revenge murder of Klytaimnestra and Aigisthos by Agamemnon’s son Orestes. For this matricide Orestes is persecuted by the Furies. He fails to shake them off by purifying himself at the Delphic shrine of his protector Apollo, and so he goes to Athens, where Athena, asked to arbitrate the conflict between Orestes and the Furies, sets up a court of law, the Areopagus, which after hearing the case narrowly acquits Orestes. The anger of the Furies at this verdict seems to threaten the well-being of Athens. But they are persuaded by Athena to accept a place of honour in the city, and the drama ends with the Furies singing blessings on Athens and with a torchlit procession reminiscent of the great Athenian festival of the Panathenaia.
What is the significance of this trial scene and of its result? According to Professor Page, ‘the trial-scene itself is, and surely seemed to its audience, rather weak; but its faults might be excused as congenital to its purely antiquarian purpose’. This comment exemplifies superbly the complete absence of historical imagination. Page cannot appreciate the drama because he cannot understand it. There is no time here to present Thomson’s exposition of the social significance of the issues raised in the trial scene. Our concern is with the Furies. What do they stand for? What is the significance of their agreement to arbitration, which results in the first ever trial by a court? What is the significance of their defeat, and of the honour nevertheless accorded them? Questions such as these, which derive from within the confines of the text itself, led Thomson outwards and backwards.
The Athenians believed that their city had civilised the rest of Greece by the practice of settling homicide cases by reason, in the law court, rather than by violence; and that in general it was by the power of persuasion that men founded cities and laid down laws. Putting it somewhat differently, we can say that the development of a central judicial institution is a key factor in the development of the state. We take it for granted that murder is dealt with by the state. But we learn from ethnology that where the state is weak, or does not exist, there may be various other methods, including the vendetta, the curse (especially if the killer is from within the clan), and purification. Ethnology helped Thomson to see that the Furies are in origin curses within the kinship group of a matrilineal society. It helped him to see why they wear snakes in their hair – as embodying the dead. And it helped him to explain their close relationship with the (female) Fates, the Moirai, and so on. In fact the Furies turn out to be just one example of how Greek religion and culture can be illuminated by the study of pre-state societies. And Thomson did have knowledge of a pre-state culture from the inside, as the culture of the Blasket islands was in effect such a culture.
But what we see in archaic and classical Greek history is the development of the state, the city-state, often at the expense of kinship relations. And what we see in the Oresteia is the encapsulation of a historical transition, the creation of a central judicial institution to resolve a contradiction which could not be resolved by existing methods: vendetta, purification, the curse. This transition is, in two respects, organic. Firstly, the creation of the court emerges naturally from the situation; both sides agree to the arbitration of Athena. And secondly, the old order, represented by the Furies, is incorporated dialectically into the new: the place of honour granted to the Furies, by which they are persuaded to change their anger to good will, represents the persistence, in a less specific form, of the fear they inspired in the old order. In general, beneath the Olympian religion of the city-state, we find a network of belief and cult persisting from earlier forms of social organisation.
This example illustrates three points.
(1) Thomson acquired his theoretical understanding by working outwards from the ancient material. His starting point was not theory but rather the insolubility, within traditional methodological limits, of certain problems thrown up by the material itself.
(2) The contradictions present in the text can be understood only from a diachronic, a historical perspective. And
(3) Aeschylus himself, and so no doubt also the Athenians, were conscious of the process by which the ancient function of the Furies was not simply rejected but, with the resolution of the contradiction between themselves and Orestes, transformed into something new. Thomson was such a powerful interpreter of Aeschylus partly because he shared this dialectical element of his outlook.
Thomson was not of course the first to use anthropology in the study of Ancient Greece. This brings me to the question of his relationship to his predecessors. In various respects Thomson succeeded to the so-called Cambridge School of Hellenists, of whom the most important were Jane Harrison and F.M. Cornford. The work of Jane Harrison on Greek religion was a synthesis of the new material provided by the recent rapid development of ethnology and of archaeology with the advances in the understanding of the relationship between religion and society provided by Durkheim. ‘In the present enquiry’, she wrote of her book Themis, ‘we shall at the outset attempt no definition of the term religious, but we shall collect the facts that admittedly are religious and see from what human activities they appear to have sprung’. This, together with the Durkheimian principle that ‘religious representation arises from collective action and emotion’ was a radical development in the study of the similarities between Greek religion and the religion of tribal societies. Another consequence was the privileged place now given to ritual as a source of religious representation. Ritual is social, collective activity, but also bears significations which may issue into art, literature, even philosophy. Much of Greek literature, mythology, and religious representation generally was given a source ritual, which itself derives, anthropology confirmed, from the social and material needs of society.
The extension of this method from Greek religion to early Greek philosophy was one of the achievements of F.M. Cornford. In particular, he demonstrated that the basic assumptions of the earliest Greek cosmology derive from a myth about the origins of the cosmos that we find in Hesiod’s Theogony and which itself derives ultimately from a ritual, not a Greek ritual but a near-Eastern one, the Babylonian new-year ceremony.
Now it is at this point that the problem of the relationship between Greek culture and so-called ‘primitive’ cultures becomes acute. The tendency of the Cambridge school was to expose the roots of Greek culture in ritual and in ‘primitive’ culture generally, and thereby to dispel as illusory the miraculous singularity of the Greeks. And yet, of course, the Greeks were, after all, in many important respects singular. For example, in the development of the kind of abstract thinking we call philosophy, or in the creation of tragedy. For the understanding of such important developments ethnology and Durkheim are necessary, but not sufficient. The Cambridge school was unable to explain fundamental change. Robert Browning has described Jane Harrison as unhistorical. Here again, Thomson located in the subject as he found it a basic problem which could not be solved within the confines of the subject, but only by broadening its scope still further. Here again, Marxism was not simply brought to bear on the material. Rather, Thomson was brought by the material, and through his ability to ask basic questions, to Marxism. This is a complex point, which I will attempt nevertheless to illustrate briefly.
Greek philosophy developed out of myths about the origin of the world. It did so in part by a process of depersonalisation. The Earth, the Sky, the Sea, etc. cease to be gods and goddesses, and become elements: earth, air, water, etc., whose role and position in the world is explained no longer by anthropomorphic activity but by their own qualities: earth is where it is because it is heavy, and so on.
Then, with the philosopher Anaximenes we find the idea that all the elements are in fact forms of one single element, air, which acquires its different forms by being more or less compact; in its rarefied form it is fire, in its dense form it is earth, and so on. That is to say, Anaximenes explained qualitative difference by reducing it to quantitative difference: the apparently qualitative difference between, say, earth and air is in fact just a matter of different quantities of air in the same space. This tendency to reduce quality to quantity, which is also a tendency towards greater abstraction, is taken further by Pythagoras, for whom the world was actually composed of numbers, and by Herakleitos, for whom the elements were successive transformations of fire, with fire being also in some sense identical with the logos, an abstract principle controlling the whole process.
Both Pythagoras and Herakleitos represent, each in his different way, not only the reduction of quality to quantity but also the tendency to separate a privileged abstraction (number, the logos) from the concrete. These tendencies are taken still further by Parmenides, who (paradoxically) denied true reality to everything except what he called ‘the one’, an entity from which he tried to exclude all perceptible qualities. And this prepares the way for Plato’s Theory of Forms, in which actual tables are less real than the idea of a table. We have then a progressive stripping away of qualitative differentiation from what constitutes the world, together with a progressive separation of a privileged abstraction from the perceptible world.
Thomson not only made sense of the development of Greek Philosophy in these terms. He also explained it. The period of this intellectual development is also the period of the first development of commodity production and a monetary economy. In terms of what it will fetch at the market, one commodity is no different from another. All commodities may, in so far as they have an exchange value, be reduced to abstract, numerical terms. They may all be expressed in terms of the universal equivalent, money. The tendency of production for the market is therefore to strip away, in the minds of men, all qualitative differentiation from what is produced. Moreover, money is a privileged, dominant abstraction, separate from the apparently various commodities into all of which it may be transformed. The analogies with the contemporaneous development of Greek philosophy are striking.
Thomson both pointed out the analogies and also showed, by exploring the relation of the philosophers to their changing society, that the analogies are not coincidental, that the changing conception of the world was determined by economic and social change. And he went on to analyse comparable determinations in ancient Israel and in ancient China.
But this does not mean that he regarded the development of the economy as the only factor. Take, for example, his demonstration that the famous antithetical style of Herakleitos derives from ritual, from the mysteries (since strikingly confirmed by archaeological discovery). Much of the content too of Herakleitos’ philosophy, notably the idea of the fiery soul undergoing successive changes into various elements, also derives from the mysteries, from the mystic doctrine of the journey of the soul through the elements. Such discoveries are still within the perspective of Cornford. But Herakleitos’ philosophy is not merely mystic doctrine, it is mystic doctrine transformed into something else, more abstract, transformed by preconceptions derived from a monetary economy and the circulation of commodities. As Herakleitos himself put it, ‘all things are exchanged for fire and fire for all things as goods are exchanged for gold and gold for goods’.
In the same way, whereas Gilbert Murray, another member of the Cambridge School, had argued for the origins of tragedy in ritual, it was left to Thomson both to tighten up the argument and to explain the development as product of the democratic city-state.
The Cambridge school achieved an ambitious synthesis of traditional scholarship with recent developments in archaeology, ethnology, and sociology. Thomson transformed this synthesis by extending its scope still further; his work represents the culmination of the Cambridge school. Thereafter, despite the potential for exciting new advances and the persistence of public interest, there has, it seems to me, been an overall decline in the subject. Specialised advances have occurred without the synthesis which alone gives those advances value. Worse, even the need for synthesis is often ignored or rejected. It may seem paradoxical that whereas Thomson represents the culmination of the best tradition of Greek studies in this country, today’s dominant classicist mind-set in our universities represents the rejection of this tradition, or rather, if that implies too great a degree of conscious choice, it represents the persistence of a mid-Victorian mentality, as if all the theoretical advances made since then had never occurred. Current classical scholarship is on the whole capable neither of confirming nor of refuting the work of Thomson. It is just one indication of the quaint myopia of the classical establishment in this country that the man who, quite apart from his contributions in other fields, was the greatest Hellenist of his generation was not even made a Fellow of the British Academy.
Of Thomson’s contribution to Ancient Greek studies I have of course been limited to a tiny sample, chosen to illustrate firstly the dialectical development of Greek culture, secondly the reflection of this dialectic in the consciousness of the Greeks themselves, and thirdly the dialectical relationship of Thomson himself to the tradition of Greek studies.
In fact his range even within Greek studies is extraordinary: metrics, translation, linguistics, mythology, Homer, kinship, textual criticism, and so on. I will end with a word about just one of these specialisations, textual criticism, the art of restoring what an ancient author wrote by removing the corruptions affecting the text over centuries of transmission from one manuscript to another. I mention textual criticism for two reasons. The first is that, here again, the key to his success is in his development of the best that he found in the tradition, the method elaborated by a contemporary of the Cambridge School, Walter Headlam. The second is this. Greek textual criticism is a discipline with a long tradition (it was first practised in antiquity), and may seem very limited in scope, requiring nothing more than knowledge of Ancient Greek, of the author’s style, and of the relationship between the various surviving manuscripts of the author. And indeed, it is practised in this narrow way even today by many of its leading practitioners. But what Headlam and Thomson showed was the necessity of also reconstructing the social and intellectual context in which Aeschylus wrote, of detecting in Aeschylus allusions to traditional ideas which might reappear in much later authors, of knowing the history of Greek throughout the period of manuscript transmission so as to understand the kinds of error likely to occur in copying, and so on. Once again, the problems themselves force us outwards beyond the limits of the traditional method. If we compare Thomson’s edition of Aeschylus with those (by Fraenkel, and by Page) I was set as a student to read, we find that time and time again Thomson has the right reading and they have the wrong one. One of the many things they failed to learn from him is that you cannot succeed even in the specialisation of textual criticism if you are only a textual critic. Another is that you cannot be a great Hellenist if you are only a Hellenist.
Note
This paper was originally delivered at the conference on the life and work of George Thomson held at the University of Birmingham, 7/1/1989. [For further information on George Thomson’s Irish connections see Seán O Lúing’s article, ‘George Thomson’ in Classics Ireland vol 3 1996, pp.141-162 – Ed.]

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 21 2004 21:31 utc | 108

my apologies for the petit seminar on british marxism

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 21 2004 21:33 utc | 109

r’giap
Thanks for both names. The Caudwell copy of Illusion and Reality is checked out, but we have Sprigg copies. To the library.

Posted by: citizen | Dec 21 2004 21:52 utc | 110

I’ve known rivers:
I’ve known rivers ancient as the world and older than
the flow of human
blood in human veins.
My soul has grown deep like the rivers.
I bathed in the Euphrates when dawns were young.
I built my hut near the Congo and it lulled me to
sleep.
I looked upon the Nile and raised the pyramids above
it.
I heard the singing of the Mississippi when Abe
Lincoln went down to New
Orleans, and I’ve seen its muddy bosom turn all golden
in the sunset.
I’ve known rivers:
Ancient, dusky rivers.
My soul has grown deep like the rivers.
Langston Hughes
The Negro Speaks of Rivers.

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 21 2004 21:56 utc | 111

G.E.M. de Ste Croix, Class Struggle in the Ancient Greek World, London 1981.
* Aristotle, Politics (Penguin)
Critical Works
* Barnes, J., Schofield M., and Sorabji, R. (edd.), Articles on Aristotle, vol 2: Ethics and Politics, London 1977.
* Baynes, N.H., ‘The decline of the Roman power in Western Europe’ Journal of Roman Studies 22, 1943, 29-35.
* Beard, M. and Crawford, Rome in the Late Republic, 2nd ed., London 1999.
* Brunt, P.A., ‘The army and the land in the Roman Revolution’, Journal of Roman Studies 52, 1962, 229-232.
* Brunt, P.A., ‘The Roman mob’, Past & Present 35, 1966, 3-27.
* Burford, Alison, Land and Labor in the Greek World, London 1993.
* Cartledge, P., The Greeks, Oxford 1993.
* Cartledge, P., Cohen EE and Foxhall, L., Money, Labour and Land: approaches to the economies of Greece, London 2002.
* Davies, J.K., Democracy & Classical Greece, 1978.
* Finley, M.I., Slavery in Classical Antiquity: views and controversies, Cambridge 1960.
* Finley, M.I. (ed.), Studies in Ancient Society, London 1974.
* Finley, M. I., Ancient Slavery and Modern Ideology, Harmondsworth 1980.
* Finley, M. I., Economy and Society in Ancient Greece, Harmondsworth 1981.
* Finley, M. I., The ancient economy, London 1973.
* Forrest, Early Greek Democracy
* Frank, R.I., ‘Marxism and ancient history’ PC SU.
* Garnsey, P.D.A., & Whittaker, C.R., Imperialism in the Ancient World, Cambridge 1978.
* Garnsey, P., ‘Aspects of the decline of the urban aristocracy in the Empire, in ANRW II.1 (1974) 229-252.
* Harris, W.V., War & Imperialism in Republican Rome 327-70 BC, Oxford 1979.
* Jones, A.H.M., The Later Roman Empire, Oxford 1964.
* Jones, A.H.M., Athenian Democracy, Oxford 1957.
* Jones, A.H.M., The Roman Economy, Oxford 1974.
* Jones, A.H.M., The Decline of the Ancient World, London 1975.
* Konstan, D., ‘Marxism and Slavery’ PC in S.U.
* McKeown, Niall ‘Some thoughts on Marxism and Ancient Greek History’ PC SU.
* Padgug, R ‘Classes and society in classical Greece’ PC SU.
* Powell, A., The Greek World, 1995.
* Ste Croix, G. E. M. de, The Origins of the Peloponnesian War, London 1972.
* Walbank, F., The Awful Revolution: the decline of the Roman Empire in the West, Liverpool 1969.
* Wheeler, M. ‘Aristotle’s analysis of the nature of political struggle’ in J. Barnes, M. Schofield and R. Sorabji (edd.), Articles on Aristotle, vol. 2
* Wood, N., Cicero’s Social and Political Thought, Univ. of California Press 1988.

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 21 2004 22:01 utc | 112

“And one day [the Muses] taught Hesiod glorious song when he was shepherding his lambs under holy Helicon, and this word first the goddesses said to me: ‘Shepherds of the wilderness, wretched things of shame, mere bellies, we know how to speak many false things as though they were true; but we know, when we will, to utter true things’ ”
– Hesiod, THEOGONY, 22-34
“Of these things, goddess, daughter of Zeus, beginning where thou wilt, tell thou even unto us”
– Homer, THE ODYSSEY, I, 10
“We can talk a lot of stupid things about myths, precisely because mythology is the kingdom of stupidity. And stupidity … is truth”
– Lacan, SÉMINAIRE XVII

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 21 2004 22:15 utc | 113

Walter Benjamin:

Everything Is Thought
Everything is thought [gedacht]. The task is to make a stopover at every one of these many little thoughts. To spend the night in a thought. Once I have done that, I know something about it that its originator never dreamed of.
Fragment written ca. June 1928. Gesammelte Schriften, VI, 200. Translated by Rodney Livingstone.

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 21 2004 22:21 utc | 114

steve earle said:
“unions have been busted their proud red banners torn to listen to the radio you’d think that was all well but you & me & cisco know it’s going straight to hell so come back emma goldman rise up joe hill the barricades are going up
steve earle – christmas in washington

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 21 2004 22:29 utc | 115

“c’est seulement dans l’état social que les antimonies telles que subjectivisme et objectivisme, spiritualisme et matérialisme, activité et passivité perdent leur character antinomique. elles cessent, par la même, d’exister en tant qu’antinomies
la solution des contradictions théoriques s’obtient, on le voit, uniquement par des moyens pratiques, uniquement par l’énergie pratique de l’homme. leur solution n’est donc nullement la seule tâche de la connaissance, mais une réelle tâche de la vie, tâche que la philosophie n’était pas en mesure d’accomplir précisément parce qu’elle y voyait un problème purement théorique”
karl marx – manuscrits de 1844 – werke i – xxxix – ed dietz p542

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 22 2004 1:05 utc | 116

rgiap
Well, you can see that my ideas about these oppositions, so necessary to manage what adorno called ‘mutilated life,’ were made by the young marx.
we all have our precursors, borges said. I’m glad my precursor was not william shatner.

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 22 2004 2:28 utc | 117

@DeAnander
“…we need that mysterious paradoxical thing called ‘participatory democracy,’ or any other system of rules which can check the unbridled exercise of our personal skills and abilities (be they the skills of violence or of cunning)…”
Does your use of the word ‘cunning’ here mean deceptiveness or ingenuity?
What skills do you identify as skills of cunning?

Posted by: Pat | Dec 22 2004 10:22 utc | 118

@slothrop
“I read once of a factory where a worker had gotten caught in the wheels that ran the conveyer belt. It was a loud factory, and so his screams went unheard and he was not discovered until the next shift when a large portion of his frame had already been ground away by the machine. The man got caught because an executive (who likely got his 30 pieces of silver as a good servant) forbade production lines to be stopped for repair, so the worker was repairing the line as it ran.
“Strangely, the executive was not charged with murder.”
Murder requires deliberate action, slothrop. One must intend, and act directly to carry out that intent. Whatever violations of the law might pertain murder is definitely not one of them.

Posted by: Pat | Dec 22 2004 10:48 utc | 119

Manslaughter?
Depraved indifference?
Sorry, my knowledge of american laws concerning homicide comes from Law and Order. Don´t know how accurate it is, but it is a good show though.

Posted by: A swedish kind of death | Dec 22 2004 12:54 utc | 120

pat
the least you could do is correctly attribute to me your responses to me. also, it is obvious you didn’t read my responses.

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 22 2004 15:45 utc | 121

not surprisingly, Pat gets the definition wrong while also mis-attributing the source of the anecdote (unless privy to some inside info re the trade). 2nd degree murder= a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender’s obvious lack of concern for human life.
choosing to not allow shutting down the line for repairs is most definately a deliberate action w/ implied intent. shouldn’t be too tough to prove in a court, so long as the application of justice recognizes actual “reasonable persons”.

Posted by: b real | Dec 22 2004 16:00 utc | 122

You could have fooled me, slothrop…. for a while there, I thought you changed your nick with citizen….

Posted by: alabama | Dec 22 2004 16:04 utc | 123

I have been so good about not switching, despite all temptations…
(to ‘slothrop’, in case i’m unclear)

Posted by: citizen | Dec 22 2004 16:24 utc | 124

Sorry, slothrop.
I did read your responses but – with the exception, for instance, of the one I wrongly attributed to you – they offer little or no point of engagement.
“But the idealism of freedom abstracted away from real social relations that really constrain agency (so many examples: the end of the ‘death tax’–you can hear Locke roll in his grave) is so obvious.”
I have no idea what you’re saying. I recognize the individual words, slothrop, but I cannot make heads or tails of them strung together as they are.
It sounds, to borrow a phrase, like a badly programmed android.

Posted by: Pat | Dec 22 2004 16:26 utc | 125

But I’m not so sure about Pat. Those last two posts first pretending obliviousness on how to read cunning, and then not even knowing the meaning of murder.
Didn’t sound at all like Pat.

Posted by: citizen | Dec 22 2004 16:30 utc | 126

Now I really am confused…..

Posted by: alabama | Dec 22 2004 16:32 utc | 127

pat
A centerpiece of bourgeois politics of the late 18th century was restriction of inheritance. Now, even this little bit of activism is betrayed now. The ideal of freedom expressed by the end of the death-tax is really just a refeudalization of the middleclass.
I am sort of tired of your feigned incomprehensions. I have and could further dismantle your gnomic rightwing libertarianism. I’m a shitty writer in such short form, no doubt, but your admonishments are disingenuous–they sound more like evasions (what does that word mean?) intended to distract the debate so you can avoid defending your libertarianism.
You are fucking w/ me. I don’t mind, because your well written posts about the war are valuable MoA content.

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 22 2004 16:49 utc | 128

I promise it’s really me. Okay, cross my heart.
seriously though, all my playfulness wanted to start hybridizing my nickname, but I didn’t because I respect the fact that its confusing enough just to communicate. peace

Posted by: citizen | Dec 22 2004 16:51 utc | 129

‘Cunning’ has two distinct definitions, citizen, and I’d like to know which one DeAnander intended.
Murder has a defining character that is not apparent in the case you presented. Its meaning does not fit the incident.

Posted by: Pat | Dec 22 2004 16:55 utc | 130

pat
Just establish the parameters of debate. You choose the readings, etc. Any self-respecting rightwing libertarian knows nozick for ex. I’ll (we’ll) follow your rules, “speak in a language everyone here can easily understand” (malcolm x), and then de, me, rgiap, et al. will turn you, by the force of our indomitable logic, into a marxist (or, you know, a ‘leftist’).

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 22 2004 16:58 utc | 131

Citizen
naw, your posts are too lucid. no one would ever believe you are me.

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 22 2004 17:04 utc | 132

pat
why not post your love letter to rightwing libertarianism, and how such philosophy connects to the war, as a MoA blog entry?
With all respect, pat. seriously.

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 22 2004 17:21 utc | 133

‘When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,’ it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.’
‘The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’
‘The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master – that’s all.’

Posted by: teuton | Dec 22 2004 17:40 utc | 134

Cunning [and no jokes about linguists, please, or track teams] has for me overtones richer and more ambivalent than simple “ingenuity” or “cleverness”. A degree of “deception” is implicit, at least in modern parlance. I believe that a contemporary of Shakespeare could have referred to a “cunning artificer” and meant nothing more than “skilled or ingenious”, but by C20 the word had acquired overtones of the kind of cleverness that succeeds by disadvantaging or “conning” some other interest or person.
So what I meant by “violence or cunning” was the division of labour in the Mafia: “violence” is the dirty end of the business, where the button-men actually go out and shoot, kidnap, torture or merely threaten potential competitors or disobedient customers; “cunning” is the amoral acumen of commerce, the particular talent (as real and vibrant as an ear for music or an eye for colour and form) that sees immediately the “edge” or advantage in every situation and goes for it without reservation or moral qualm. I believe that a brilliant mercantilist can “see” whole power structures and “deals”, no matter how complex, in the way that a good engineer can “see” the stresses and weak points of a bridge or building and a good sailor can “see” the air pressure in the sails and rigging or read the surface of water. The brilliant mercantilist immediately sees the most advantageous path through this structure, every juncture at which a rival or competitor can be defeated or deceived, and plans accordingly. Are brilliant mercantilists also good chess players? I wouldn’t be surprised, though they might lack the requisite enthusiasm for any activity that did not result immediately in money, sex, and/or the humiliation of some other person; people with a serious jones for Winning tend to like tangible rewards.
An old Communist bromide was that capitalists and rentiers have no skills, no abilities, no talents, they just batten on the abilities of others. As stated above, I disagree. I think cunning is a skill. But the skill of “cunning” like the related skills of violence, requires restraint in a healthy society. If exercised unregulated and for immediate personal gain, it is mere criminality.
The famous old line “It’s nothing personal, it’s strictly business,” is a truism: the Mafia is simply Business — Business in the absence of any regulation that protects the commons and the greater good of the polity. Discpline, regulation, law, accountability and openness are what restrain these native human skills from becoming cancerous, i.e. accreting so much power to their wielders that freedom for all other persons around them is sadly diminished.
There is no difference — morally speaking — between money and muscle, and no difference between the ability to see the sharpest end of a business deal and the ability to know where to plant a punch or kick for the maximum effect. Both are merely a talent for winning in interpersonal conflicts. If unrestrained, these talents when exercised freely result in intimidation, bullying, and slavery for other people less talented, less lucky, or more ethically restrained.
By contrast the talent for making music, painting pictures, being a gracious host, or building bridges, when exercised unrestrained, generally harms no one (except perhaps the neighbour unthrilled by long hours of bagpipe practise or hammering noises). The talent for growing a garden — food, flowers, fruit — may actually benefit an entire community, as may the talent for troubleshooting/diagnosis (whether medical or mechanical). The underrated talents of empathy, understanding, teaching, comforting have enormous value for any community. But the talent for winning produces only two results: a winner with more power, and one or more losers with less power.
I think the talent for winning (cunning) can be channelled into constructive purposes. Project management (seeking the optimum path through a complex timeline and tackling/resolving all obstructions/difficulties) for example might be a constructive application of this ability. But we see from the history of many big projects that the basic Gotta Win impulse often takes over, resulting in gross abuses towards people perceived as “getting in the way” of a big project, or in vicious internal political struggles that vitiate the project’s original purpose, or in outright embezzlement and misdirection of the project. People with the talents of cunning and of violence are a dangerous resource. Our species wouldn’t be what we are without ’em, and yet their gifts are inherently dangerous to ideals like democracy and freedom. imho the essential conundrum of Government is that its purpose is to restrain and regulate the exercise of these dangerous talents, for the sake of liberty, peace, and order — and yet the nature of government is such that it inevitably attracts the very type of Cunningly-gifted persons who tend to undermine and defeat that purpose.
My own talents are artisanal, I’m rather deficient in cunning 🙂
@slothrop, of course Pat is f-ing with you. everyone needs a hobby 🙂 besides, captious rhetorical poking and prodding (picador stuff) is a textbook tactic when defending a weak position. it’s guerrilla warfare applied to the clash of ideas — dart about stinging here and there, but never engage directly with heavier forces 🙂

Posted by: DeAnander | Dec 22 2004 18:35 utc | 135

teuton
don’t know if its a certain primality but after reading the link by cloned poster – re indiaonline tough ttough article – i wanted & needed to cite humpty dumpty – but i’d forgotten the rhyme

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 22 2004 18:41 utc | 136

i have a strange mind that can recall the grundrisse in three different languages but is completely incapable of remembering humpty dumpty
perhaps it’s an althusserian alzheimer condition
deanander – as usual your posts acute – you are not artisanal – when you blow sometimes it is almost transcedental – must be all the bike riding & sailing
me – i watch sinking ships & other beautiful boats
still steel

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 22 2004 18:46 utc | 137

@Deanander
“If unrestrained, these talents when exercised freely result in intimidation, bullying, and slavery for other people less talented, less lucky, or more ethically restrained.”
To be “restrained” is precisely, to use slothrop gibberish, to be “unfree.” Talents cannot become what they are without being “freely exercized.” This is why the “leftist” critique remains such an shibboleth in the ears of one like myself whose politics are pro-capital libertarian. The “cunning” to which you refer, Deanander, is the “talent” of the capitalist to unreservedly exercize the rationally efficient uses of society’s resources.
I’m sorry you and other leftists are marginalized by these cunning outcomes of reason. Maybe you should stop giving up, and try a little harder.

Posted by: pat | Dec 22 2004 19:07 utc | 138

my mother once sd that i was a genius & an imbecile – sometimes silmutaneouslly – sadly i see the evidence of that before me

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 22 2004 19:09 utc | 139

Sorry, I just posted the ‘pat’ response to deanander. that was unethical, I should have said: slothrop-upon-pat.
apologies.

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 22 2004 19:09 utc | 140

Every woman adores a Fascist, The boot
in the face, the brute Brute heart of a brute like you.

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 22 2004 19:16 utc | 141

ô capital is doing real real well – in the world. such astuteness. such intelligence. such audacity.
me dumb little marxist that i am is a man in minature before the evertriumphant monoliths of capital
ô capital – you who feed the bellys of the poor – ô capital you who give learning to the illiterate, ô capital in all your inventive glory makes apes of us all
(long pan to gary cooper rubbing his crutcch against wall of building) (jump cut – to phillip johnson in stately austion room trying on heydrichs uniform – a bargain at half the price) (pan again to gary reading aloud the comtesse arendt to small but intimate crowd)(jump cut to phillip doing his albert speer impersonations before the rand corporation & his beloved painting of derain) (pan to sculpture by arno brecker celebrating the gifts of capital – mostly centred in the phallus)(tracking shot of aynr rand becoming anne coulter then transfoming into walter winchell/roy cohn)
burn the film
still steel

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 22 2004 19:20 utc | 142

(insert long shot of the hateful herr heidegger respecting the silence in the black forest)

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 22 2004 19:23 utc | 143

taking full advantage of the thread’s title..? how cunning 🙂

Posted by: b real | Dec 22 2004 19:34 utc | 144

@rememberinggiap
Yours will always be the ravings of the failed European who hates everything he is too lazy to become. Gary Cooper is the America that makes no excuses for making no excuses, the America that rebuilds the world constantly in its own preferred image because it can. And while you and the slothrops of our world endlessly recline in your effete bookish onanism, America will heroically build another world that makes your revolting inaction possible.
Now we know what “praxis” means.

Posted by: pat | Dec 22 2004 19:52 utc | 145

gaddamnit, I did it again.
last time, promise.

Posted by: slothrop-upon-pat | Dec 22 2004 19:54 utc | 146

@slothrop, we of the uncunning brigade are confused. do you mean that the recent snippy comment about leftist shibboleths, purporting to be by Pat and somewhat in the accustomed style, is actually by slothrop satirising Pat? why bother? the real deal is tapdancing on the verge of self-satire already.
false-flag operations imho are part of the repertoire of Cunning (along with psyops, blackops, Ponzi schemes, weighted dice, and the entire profession of Public Relations). they all bore the heck outta me… objects still fall at 32 ft/sec/sec, water’s still incompressible, entropy still plays hardball, the bernouilli effect works just as it always did, no matter what Humpty games we primates play. finding out how things work is so much more interesting than playing let’s-pretend.
physics always trumps spin control in the end — SDI doesn’t work and never has worked and probably never will work, no matter how many reams of bumf and cubic miles of dense smoke the PR machine spits out…

Posted by: DeAnander | Dec 22 2004 19:59 utc | 147

cherche dans les voix obscures des passants
cherche dans la lumière
cherche dans le réveil
cherche dans l’oblique de ton histoire jusqu’à la mort
cherche dans les chemins égarés
cherche dans la forêt
cherche dans la racine
cherche dans les caches inconnues
cherche dans un astre qui se détourne cette nuit vers la terre
cherche dans toute chose
un sens
un autre secret
pour ta vie
jalil haidar (1945 – bagdad, irak) pour chercher seulement

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 22 2004 20:07 utc | 148

yes, yes. all me. sorry. couldn’t help it.
feel the need to expropriate pat to reveal that her language, thus far, is only the adulation of power.
I want to speak for her, because she refuses to speak for herself.
It’s a shame really. I guess I’m about the last person here to know that a big chunk of pat is a troll.
But, maybe alabama knows more. hmmmmm.

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 22 2004 20:08 utc | 149

thanks all for some fascinating reading.
I think the thread could very well be named “Grumpy old men” 🙂

Posted by: dan of steele | Dec 22 2004 20:31 utc | 150

Oh, alright, slothrop, I’ll try to catch your spear as it soars through the skies of this thread….Pat’s posts, for me, are models of chaste and impeccable exactitude, and of course the stores of her knowledge in matters political and military vastly exceed my own. In matters concerning the philosophical topics and authors pursued and adduced in this thread, I know so little about them that I can’t speak one way or another as to the merits of anyone’s posts. And as for political orientations, my own proclivities are best expressed in the words of a dedicated Anarchist (a man of the Left in good standing), who liked to claim that he was a Communist in the morning, a liberal in the middle of the day, and a royalist at five in the evening. And since Pat rather gives me the sense that she wouldn’t dismiss these words out of hand, I’m inclined to trust her intuitions in matters of political import. But in all other respects–and particularly those that concern the colors of rhetoric as deployed in English prose–the posts of DeAnander, slothrop and remembereringgiap are the more diverting by far–and I, as you may have noticed, am always glad for diversion….

Posted by: alabama | Dec 22 2004 21:19 utc | 151

since Pat rather gives me the sense
a “sense” of pat’s eidolon mind is about all we have. That’s the problem.

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 22 2004 22:04 utc | 152

Not a problem for me, slothrop, not a problem at all–if only because Pat, at the last, is a lady, and I do indeed seek the approval of ladies. I hope it can be said of me, as Melville says of a certain character, that “for the most part, it is for his less exalted qualities that the ladies approve him. They approve him for the way in which he contributes to those amenities and gaieties in which the sexes upon common ground participate.”

Posted by: alabama | Dec 22 2004 22:27 utc | 153

Two of the Best Books on Stalingrad:
Enemy at the Gates
Stalingrad
Either book is guaranteed to cure constipation and promote pacifism.

Posted by: FlashHarry | Dec 22 2004 22:41 utc | 154

I took Thread Navigation twice, and flunked both times.
Sorry.

Posted by: FlashHarry | Dec 22 2004 22:46 utc | 155

@teuton Apt.
@dan of steele
I think the thread could very well be named “Grumpy old men” 🙂
.. or the Mad Hatter’s tea party.
“Twinkle, twinkle, little pat !
How I wonder what you’re at !”

Posted by: DM | Dec 22 2004 23:21 utc | 156

slothrop & alabama & slothrop sur pat
i am reminded of a story re pat
two buddhist monk – one an abbot & the other a young monk were traversing the land in their search for truth/non truth & they came to a river
at the rivers edge was a woman – an exceptioanlly beautiful woman – (an expert by the way on derrida & dickens) who was wearing almost nothing at all & that completely ripped apart.
she was weeping as derrideans working on dickens often are – & she sd will you please take me across the river. the young monk refused – a pious fellow with a distaste for continental philosophy – & sd no no – that i will not do – in this life or in any other
the old abbot – on the contrary sd climb on mu shoulders & i will take you across – & this he did. the monk furious beyond belief kept his silence
at the other edge of the river – the abbot brought the woman safely down from his shoulder & he continued the walk with the monk
the monk in absolute fury after a long moment – sd why did you do that – a woman with no clothes & a derridean expert on dickens to boot – why did you do what you did at the river – why did you carry her
the abbot looking in the distance – perhaps at some simulacra or other – sd look my young friend – i simply carried her over the river & we have walked many miles & you are still carrying her
still steel

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 22 2004 23:38 utc | 157

So the words of the abbot, like Pat’s posts, are models of chaste and impeccable exactitude….

Posted by: alabama | Dec 22 2004 23:51 utc | 158

Yours will always be the ravings of the failed European who hates everything he is too lazy to become.
Whatever else RGiap may be, he is not lazy. His energy may not be applied in the same pursuits as yours is, but his intellectual accomplishments require ambition and effort no matter what you think of them. And, I’m not sure what to make of your insulting someone by calling him a failed …..European. Have we graduated from ethnic to continental slurs? Fox News would be pleased.
Gary Cooper is the America that makes no excuses for making no excuses, the America that rebuilds the world constantly in its own preferred image because it can.
As someone who occasionally enjoys a Gary Cooper movie, I have never confused them with reality. And Jesus, you think it is a good thing that we constantly “rebuild” the world in our own image – because we can? This sounds like hubris to me, not virtue. Isn’t that, to some degree, why we are in Iraq? (The other degrees involve power and greed, not exactly Gary Cooper type images.) And didn’t you oppose that adventure? What do you suppose becomes of people that don’t want to be rebuilt in our image? Could it be that they become insurgents and/or terrorists? And, BTW, bullies don’t make excuses either.
And while you and the slothrops of our world endlessly recline in your effete bookish onanism, America will heroically build another world that makes your revolting inaction possible.
Shades of Spiro Agnew. This passage seems to equate study and reflection with laziness and inaction, somewhat the opposite of heroic Gary Cooper-type action. Personally, I don’t see them as mutually exclusive; nor do I automatically see action as heroism.
I also think your prediction is as wrong as could be. America is a debtor nation of record proportions in economic decline. Even mainstream economists working for big financial institutions are saying this: it isn’t a question of if but when and how badly our financial house of cards collapses. When it does happen, we will have all we can handle to rebuild this country, let alone another world. My guess is that the people you disparage here will make contributions to that rebuilding every bit as valuable as any you make.

Posted by: lonesomeG | Dec 23 2004 3:01 utc | 159

lonesomeG
I apologize…I spoofed pat cuz she was driving me crazy. there are two posts with the lowercase ‘pat.’
Sorry. I realize my prank caused you to waste your time and it won’t happen again.

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 23 2004 3:37 utc | 160

Response to some of the above, ha ha ???
In 1976 I had the rareified experience of seeing Captain Beefheart and the Magic Band live in a small club in Cleveland — it was at the height of their power, with the captain shouting out prose from fistfulls of script that he was waving and throwing from the stage like so much confetti. It was halarious, profound, and annoying all at the same time and I’ve never seen anything like it before or since.
Anyway, over several years I managed to collect all of the recordings, but found that I really could;nt stand to listen to them more than maybe 1 track at a time, if at all.
Nontheless, I still think they were one of the greatest bands ever.
I think it was the improvisation effect of the above exchange that returned that memory — I liked it.
Post a comment
Name:
Email Address:
Remember personal info?
HTML Tags:
Text Å® Text
Text Å® Text
Text Å® Text

Text

Link to ACLU Å® Link to ACLU
Comments:
 Preview   Post 
« Executive Order | Main | Stalingrad »

Posted by: anna missed | Dec 23 2004 4:00 utc | 161

Oh Man!!

Posted by: anna missed | Dec 23 2004 4:01 utc | 162

Doh! I got back from a couple days away, read quickly and bit on your spoof, Slothrop. My fault as much as yours. It did seem out of character for her, so I should have stopped and thought before writing. My apologies to Pat for being so credulous as to take that post for one of hers.

Posted by: lonesomeG | Dec 23 2004 12:24 utc | 163

lonesome g
thank you for defending my honour
i too was fooled by slothrop
they had stylistic similarities & the content was the same
i think comrade slothrop should be sentenced to do impersonations of each of us until the end of the month
seriouslly, i feel very uncomfotable when someone uses another posters name – because even though our writings here have to be hardy – they are delicate & we need to trust one another

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 23 2004 12:58 utc | 164

rgiap
you the man. sorry for using you to parody pat.

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 23 2004 15:42 utc | 165

Slothrop,
I give you credit for the success of your impersonation. To me it seemed too over-the-edge to believe, and I did notice in passing that the signature didn’t quite match what we are used to in Pat’s posts. In all, well done tho.
OK here’s my rant. You abused the privelege of anonymity and for that you should as Rgiap suggests, be sentenced to a period of solitary introspection.

Posted by: rapt | Dec 23 2004 15:59 utc | 166

rapt
And what is this ‘privilege’? It’s not really about anonymity, because if that was the case, then no one would feel harmed by an appropriation of an identity. In “Funes the Memorius” I think, Borges says “one day, all men will know and do all things.” That is to say, a world in which no one sought their identity in anything would be a world populated by Borges’ ‘men.’ Truly, an end to such ‘identity-thinking’ as the Frankfurt philosophers called it, would benefit humanity.
But, as you can see by my prank, what ought to be a kind of liberation of the subject from the reification of identity–a reification that, even in a name like ‘pat’ objectifies the individual–is met by even the most sensitively intelligent persons as a horrible and unbearable deception.
I like my reputational capital in ‘slothrop.’ That surely is a weakness. I love pseudonymity but not anonymity.

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 23 2004 16:24 utc | 167

That is, subjectivity is external “the name” “the logos.” The more I try to be ‘slothrop’ the less of a subject I become. Overcoming this ego (or is it merely ‘superego’) is what nietzsche referred to as the tranvaluation of values. And what a difficult task!

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 23 2004 16:32 utc | 168

And I have known the eyes already, known them all —
The eyes that fix you in a formulated phrase,
And when I am formulated, sprawling on a pin,
When I am pinned and wriggling on the wall,
Then how should I begin
To spit out all the butt-ends of my days and ways?

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 23 2004 16:41 utc | 169

“On the Internet, nobody knows you’re a dog.”

Posted by: DeAnander | Dec 23 2004 16:56 utc | 170

rgiap,
Shall we let him out of the pen now? For good behavior. It appears that this period of introspection has rehabilitated this inmate.

Posted by: rapt | Dec 23 2004 18:34 utc | 171

rapt
i am in full & frank agreement with the accord
slothrop, i don’t know perhaps it’s the vestige of bourgeois individualism on my part & also perhaps i also take our posts very seriouslly indeed. & that i use what is written here either practically or indirectly – that this tensile connection with our names here is something special. i agree – perhaps too special
& i agree too in a little demolition of an form of reïfication but when i see slothrop, i actually see you – the same with conchita deanander, clonedposter, flashharry & all the others who i greet warmly. i feel the community in a real sense
but i too am opposed to ‘enquirees’ which are not that – but are a form of provocation – even sadism & you mocked that false questioning very very well
i am not opposed either that our opinions are diametrically opposed (as is obviouslly the case with pat) but i want as i feel you want – real dialogues. & if i have been very angry with pat – it is because i do not feel a real desire for dialogue
& i think what you wrote under ‘pat’ roughly approximates what a whole range of thinkers like pat think – that we are not at the hauteur of the demand. of course that is self serving as it sees the ‘left’ as monolithic & not as the fragile multiples it actuallly is
i imagine you & i slothrop have differencec but they are not of that order & in this sense & without irony – i sense allies in our common breath & that for me is its beauty & wonder
what i ‘sense’ in pat is the kind of legitimisation process that most thinkers of the libertarian mould enact – a pretended openness that is in fact very closed & accumulates all the half truths under the guise of certitudes
you are delicate in a way i am not – nor is pat for that matter – we have within our texts what the tougher call life – & though she is obviouslly younger than me – we could have easily met over an interrogation table in east germany. but even in the worst of times i would rather spend my time with marcus wolf than any operative of american intelligence because american intelligence is like military music – the two have very little in common
alabama misunderstood – (as is his right & i can understand also that he is bored by my fanaticism – something of which i am proud ) – my contretemps with pat – i think i obeyed any & all rules of etiquette until i realised there was no one listening – & even that is not a crime – but when these false enquirees were being done in the face of the slaughter in iraq – this i could not support. & will not.. nor did i want to demonise her in any way – what was said here was as open & truthful as i could be
& i was genuinely hurt by her inability to really respond & in alabama’s attack on me – but let it be clear – i do not fear – nor do i feel most of us fear – a critique – as i have often quoted katzanzakis – i open my belt & look for trouble – but the real hurt i think is the contingent trust we have in each other because of our virtualities – & that we all work somewhere else – but we all also devote a not inconsiderable time to our efforts here – & so this contingent trust is extremely important. in that precise case i felt that contingent trust broken – once & for all
still steel

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 23 2004 19:18 utc | 172

Also, this need for subjectivity is historically modal:

Milieu Theoreticians
If we reflect how long the belief in disguises survived-how farce throughout the ages, Shakespeare’s high comedy, and even the detective story of the late nineteenth century found it quite unproblematic to work with the confusions that result from disguises-it must be a matter of considerable astonishment to see how reluctant people are to accept such devices in more recent times. When it comes to disguises, they refuse to see the joke, and in the modern novel such mistaken identities are frowned on. Yet this dogged insistence on the unmistakable, unique singularity of the body comes at precisely the moment when philanthropists, the disciples of Proust, and psychoanalysts assure us that all possibilities dwell within each of us, and that nothing could be more out-of-date and philistine than the belief in the unity of personality. What can be behind this?
Fragment written no later than mid-1929; unpublished in Benjamin’s lifetime.

Perhaps, we’ll be lucky enough to know the persistence of the subject was a vestige of print culture. It is this ability to destroy the sanctity of the “I” “the author” that makes new media such a welcome tool for us ‘leftists.’
Will it happen?

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 23 2004 20:48 utc | 173

should have said ‘historically differentiated’ instead of ‘modal’

Posted by: slothrop | Dec 23 2004 20:53 utc | 174

bravo

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Dec 23 2004 21:14 utc | 175