Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
December 5, 2004
AIPAC Probe intensifies

JTA News

FBI agents searched AIPAC’s headquarters here Wednesday, seizing files associated with two senior staffers who were interviewed in August amid allegations that a classified Pentagon document was leaked and passed on to Israel.

The agents also served subpoenas on four other senior staffers to appear before a grand jury later this month. The four were Howard Kohr, the group’s executive director; Richard Fishman, the managing director; Renee Rothstein, the communications director; and Raphael Danziger, the research director.

Though some AIPAC officials and lay leaders in past months sought to portray the investigation as dying down, sources told JTA that federal investigators have interviewed several former AIPAC employees in recent weeks.

This had indeed disappeared from the news completely, and it is interesting to see it popping up again. Any of you have any additional news on the topic? Any expectations on where this may go? Any chance in hell to lead to a real discussion of US-Israeli policies?

Rant away!

Comments

Any chance in hell to lead to a real discussion of US-Israeli policies?
Um. No.
If anything, the neo-cons are emboldened. And the real supporters of Israel, the far-right “waiting for the rapture” crowd are even more emboldened.
They won’t let a few pesky facts and/or indictments get in their way.
In fact, I suspect that any subject that upsets the fundies will be verbotten in the coming months and years. I’ve already seen signs of censorship at my academic institution, purely on “moral” grounds.
It’s appalling.
BTW, in case you missed it in an earlier thread, fabulous news about your son! I couldn’t be happier for you and your wife.

Posted by: fourlegsgood | Dec 5 2004 9:15 utc | 1

I think that there is more here than meets the eye (well, is
that just about always the case?). Nevertheless, I tend to view this as some sort of cryptic semaphoring between U.S. and Israeli power
structures than as a serious spy case. I can’t believe that a
secret service and propaganda organization as astute and effective
as that of Israel would fail to “compartmentalize” the two aspects
of their operations. The real spies would not be active propagandists for Israel. This doesn’t mean I don’t think there are
still real spies: I would be very surprised if there was not at least one strategically placed mole in the FBI – how else do you explain
the amazing all-encompassing blind-spot regarding pre 9/11 leads,
including information coming from an informer in a NYC prison who was
finking on an Al Qaeda member (trascripts available, I think at Cryptome). Dale Watson and William Frields (Sibel Edmonds supervisor, or perhaps up a notch from her direct supervisor, I believe) have both “retired” to cushy positions in Quantico, Virginia.
I’d like to know more about that. The FBI brought in an outside expert (CIA or NSA, I’m not sure) to handle their computer-communications set-up after 9/11, but I still am very suspicious about the whole business. Paul Rodrigues wrote an online article some years ago about Israeli penetration of U.S. government communications, and I can’t believe that sort of effort has stopped.
Google Amdocs, Verint (ex Comverse Systems) etc. I know this is well-known to many (especially Cloned Poster) but it should be shouted from the rooftops: the U.S. government is infiltrated by traitors and
run for the benefit of criminals.

Posted by: Anonymous | Dec 5 2004 9:27 utc | 2

Oops, working from home. That last rant was mine

Posted by: Hannah K. O’Luthon | Dec 5 2004 9:36 utc | 3

I know this is well-known to many (especially Cloned Poster) but it should be shouted from the rooftops: the U.S. government is infiltrated by traitors and run for the benefit of criminals.
Yes. It is.
But we still won’t talk about it.

Posted by: fourlegsgood | Dec 5 2004 10:30 utc | 4

Here is the neocon/likutnik spin on the story in J’lem Post:
It’s an FBI plot!
Exclusive: How the FBI set up AIPAC

AIPAC, the powerhouse pro-Israel lobby currently embroiled in allegations of spying for Israel, was set up by the FBI, The Jerusalem Post has learned.
FBI agents used a courier, Pentagon analyst Larry Franklin, to draw two senior AIPAC officials who already knew him into accepting what he described to them as “classified” information, reliable government and other sources intimately familiar with the investigation have told the Post.
One of the AIPAC pair then told diplomats at the Israeli Embassy in Washington about the “classified” information, which claimed Iranians were monitoring and planning to kidnap and kill Israelis operating in the Kurdish areas in northern Iraq, the Post has been told.
It is unclear whether the “classified” information was real or bogus.

(My bet is that the information about Israeli in Kurdish areas is not bogus. Iranians planing to kidnap these sounds weird.)
The piece has other problems. The FBI had already surveilance on AIPAC before Franklin came into the case. The question is why had they?
Laura Rozen had some on this in the Prospect

Posted by: b | Dec 5 2004 11:05 utc | 5

I think the 19th century imperialists ambition of the Straussians is about played out. You need to develop a popular sense of mission to maintain colonies and the nation has to swallow the ideology whole to maintain the costs and loss of lives (apart for Leopold of Belgium’s rubber economy stoked with forced labor in the Congo, few late 19th century colonies were financially successful). Why? While there are many Christians in America not all share the apocolyptic and romanticism for Israel and turn a blind eye to the atrocities perpetrated in the land grabs against Palestinians. And while there are Christians who desire morality many more do not trust the State to be the font of moral judgement (just look at Tom Delay, for example, our own Boss Hogg in Texas and who wants their kids to be taught “abstinence only” in an age of AIDS by Sun Myung Moon’s pernicious cult group, Free Teens USA?). And while Republicans are conservatives, they are also economic, small government conservatives.Bush and friends played all their cards too early. And they turned out to be rather weak cards indeed. Americans did not buy into Neoconism. And the repetitious hate mantras of the Ann Coulter/John Bircher crowd have not captivated American like McCarthyism in the 1950’s. How could they? We are after all, Democrat or Republican, Americans.

Posted by: Diogenes | Dec 5 2004 12:20 utc | 6

I know Raimondo recently lost some of his credibility here but here is his take of his on the AIPAC raid which I found informative.

Posted by: juannie | Dec 5 2004 13:00 utc | 7

Instructive and refreshing threads on Israel, AIPAC, Palestine, the Plame affair ran with some frequency at the Whiskey Bar–when partisans on all sides felt free to do the posting….I’ll start with a general proposition: the Israeli peace movement can only prosper in a prosperous Israel. But how shall Israel prosper? At some point, there ought to be a lot of costly and thoughtful investment in all quarters of Israel (Jewish and Palestinian alike). This investment shouldn’t wait for the Intifada to stop, because the Intifada won’t stop–it will, at best, cool down. Nor, for the same reason, can this investment await the final outcome of a peace-process: a truce will have to suffice, a truce that lasts for thirty years or more (for as long as it takes to renovate infrastructures at all levels). Since we Americans broke the land, we now own it, and have to fix it. If we paid for the fixing with the moneys we’ve reserved for that dreadful Star Wars project, we’d have a win/win situation on our hands.

Posted by: alabama | Dec 5 2004 15:44 utc | 8

@alabama speaking of better uses for the money, Alex Cockburn (with whom I cannot always see eye to eye) is imho in very good form today at
CounterPunch

CounterPunch’s editorial position is that the more overt the political reconfiguring of the Agency by each new director, the better off we are. Let’s suppose that one day a leftist president settles in behind his desk in the Oval Office, sticks a portrait of W.E.B. DuBois on the wall and then reaches for the phone, fires the heads of the CIA’s covert side, appoints no successors ande shifts the entire complement of covert officers into monitoring soil erosion in the Great Plains, a real national security threat. Wouldn’t that be a step forward?

it surely would.
must run. more later…

Posted by: DeAnander | Dec 5 2004 18:49 utc | 9

DeAnander @ 1:49 PM: we can start the mysterious process of rethinking “Israel” by configuring a novel hierarchy of the terms currently in circulation , such as “9/11,” “terrorism,” “jihad,” “democracy, “war,” “self-determination,” “colonialism,” “hegemony,” “nationalism,” “sovereignty” and “insurgency”. If, as listed, these terms work in any combination at all, it’s at an abstract, ungrounded level hard to sort out logically–like so many iron filings, lacking a magnet….

Posted by: alabama | Dec 5 2004 19:45 utc | 10

….As the missing magnet, therefore, I propose to insert the term “intifada,” which gathers all these issues together under a single rubric within the idiom of the aggrieved. It has the added virtue, moreover, of demystifying the fetish of “9/11,” which was not, to my thinking, an apocalypse of any kind, but merely a stroke in a series of strokes comprising the “intifada” (and if I had to privilege a single stroke in that infinite series, it wouldn’t be “9/11”–it would be the throwing of the second rock on the first day of the “first” intifada. back in 1998). The “intifada,” by this reckoning, is an infinitely larger and more inclusive category than any imaginable “jihad,” “crusade,” or “war on terror”…..

Posted by: alabama | Dec 5 2004 19:45 utc | 11

Us versus Them

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Dec 5 2004 19:58 utc | 12

Creating a U.S. Policy of Constructive Disengagement in the Middle East, by Leon Hadar of The Cato Institute (www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=985&full=1). Published Dec. 29, 1989, and instructive as ever – even more thought-provoking in light of events of the past 15 years.
…For several months an “iron triangle” consisting of prominent American journalists, the “peace process” partisans in the Bush administration, and their allies–including Middle East specialists in various interest groups and think tanks–have been outlining a scenario that most pundits and insiders now accept as a given. According to that scenario, the intifada–the Palestinian uprising in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip–is the first stage of a process that will lead to the establishment of a Palestinian state headed by the “kinder and gentler” Palestine Liberation Organization.
The implicit message is that the administration should elevate the search for a solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to the top of its foreign policy agenda. Toward that end, it should press Israel to withdraw from the West Bank and Gaza, negotiate with the PLO, and reach an agreement that might provide for the creation of a Palestinian state.[1]
The only members of the U.S. foreign policy establishment who seem to have resisted that argument are the neo-conservatives. Some of them regard the advocacy of an independent Palestinian state as part of a liberal conspiracy; others attribute it to naive do-goodism or pure anti-Semitism. Such a proposal, the neoconservatives claim, would be a Munich-like betrayal whose effect would be to weaken and eventually destroy the state of Israel.[2]
The neoconservative prescription is more of the same policy that the United States has pursued since the 1967 Arab-Israeli war. Although neoconservatives may seem to advocate a hands-off policy toward Arab-Israeli issues, they do not contemplate a reduction in U.S. economic and military aid to Israel, which now totals more than $3 billion a year. Indeed, because they consider Jerusalem a strategic asset in Washington’s campaign against Moscow-sponsored international terrorism, they would strengthen the U.S.-Israeli relationship.
The United States, argue the neoconservatives, should regard Israel as its only real military and diplomatic ally in the Middle East and should therefore elevate its relationship with that country to the level of its alliances with Western Europe and Japan. Such critics view the intifada as nothing more than a devious attempt by the PLO, supposedly a Soviet surrogate, to manipulate the American media and weaken the public’s support for Israel.
There may appear to be an unbridgeable conflict between the peace process partisans, who insist that the United States should play a diplomatic role in ending the intifada, and their Commentary-based adversaries, who advocate U.S. support for an Israeli suppression of the uprising. In reality, however, they are rival intellectual twins whose shared assumptions have influenced U.S. policy toward the Middle East for four decades.[3]
[…]
Ironically, the strategic alliance between Israel and the United States has weakened Israel’s position in the Middle East as well as America’s. At the end of the Reagan presidency Israel found itself totally dependent on the United States politically, militarily, and economically. Likewise, Washington’s dominance gives Israel little room to maneuver in the diplomatic arena. It has an unstable domestic economy and is increasingly unable to compete in the international market. Finally, Israel has been rent by deep internal political divisions as a result of its invasion of Lebanon and its response to the intifada and faces an unprecedented challenge to its diplomatic sovereignty as Washington begins an open dialogue with the PLO.
“Israel’s major problem after 42 years of independence is that the intifada is hurting America’s regional interests,” which Jerusalem was expected to secure, maintained a prominent Israeli columnist in the daily Ha’aretz.[9] The intifada, he argued, is threatening Jordan’s pro-American regime and weakening the pro-American elements in Cairo and Riyadh. In short, the rise of Islamic fundamentalism in the West Bank and Gaza is serving as a catalyst for radical changes throughout the Middle East. If the intifada escalates, the United States might eventually find itself in the center of a new Middle Eastern war in which the Soviets are also involved. Such a war could entail the use of chemical and even nuclear weapons.
Dramatic changes in the international arena, including the political and economic reforms in the Soviet Union, the rise of Japan and other East Asian nations as economic powers, and the planned political and economic integration of Western Europe, have led to a major reevaluation of America’s foreign policy agenda. But that reevaluation has not encompassed America’s policy toward the Middle East– especially its relationship with Israel. Washington should undertake such a reassessment and should focus on four crucial questions.
The Limits of America’s Influence
The first question that should be considered is whether the United States, or any outside actor, for that matter, has the means and the will to produce a solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. U.S. policymakers must determine whether the potential benefits of America’s efforts to oversee the peace process are worth the political, economic, and military costs.
An analysis of those issues should begin with the realization that the Middle East is probably the most internationalist, or what political scientists call “penetrated,” system in the world. Numerous national, regional, and extraregional political actors combine and divide in shifting patterns of alliances. The diplomacy of the region is characterized by a mishmash of local and global issues.
As L. Carl Brown observed, “The politics of a thoroughly penetrated system is not adequately explained–even at the local level–without reference to the influence of the intrusive outside system.”[10] Yet an outside actor cannot always control the politics of such a system and frequently becomes involved in issues that have nothing to do with its original interest in the region. A major power’s ability to impose policies on local actors or exclude other major powers is limited. Even a superpower sometimes becomes the hostage of local powers.
The political elites of both the Arab world and Israel use outside powers, including the United States, to advance their domestic and regional interests. Most of the Middle Eastern states lack stable, legitimate political regimes, economic structures capable of sustaining their bottomless budgets, or both. It is largely external, especially American, support that allows the political elites of those states to perpetuate their control.
[…]

Posted by: Pat | Dec 5 2004 22:35 utc | 13

More from the same Cato article:
Constraints on the Middle Eastern Elites
One would expect the political elites of Israel and the Arab world to move toward a peace settlement out of sheer self-interest. The Ashkenazi leaders of Israel’s Labor party (and some segments of the Likud), the elites of the moderate Arab states, and even the Fatah wing of the PLO, which is allied with them, are aware that unless a solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict is found, a more radical brand of politics is likely to dominate the Middle East.
Recent political developments in the Islamic world and Israeli election results seem to confirm that expectation. Shimon Peres, Hosni Mubarak, King Hussein, and even Yasir Arafat would apparently welcome an American- or Soviet- sponsored Israeli-Palestinian peace agreement, which would neutralize the radical groups in their countries. Such an agreement would enable them to maintain their power bases and perpetuate the political and economic status quo with the aid of American largess.
The problem is that the political elites cannot deliver such an agreement. They not only lack the legitimacy that would enable them to mobilize support for such an agreement but are captives of the ideological bases of their nation- states. They cannot move beyond Zionism or Pan-Arabism and develop political arrangements that would serve the long- term interests of their people.[13]
Moreover, the secular nationalists in both Israel and the Arab world are confronting challenges from more traditional and religious elements. Israel’s Ashkenazi elite is being challenged by the Sephardic Jews, who are nearly a majority but lack proportionate political representation– especially in the foreign policy and national security bureaucracies–as well as access to financial resources. The political factions emerging from the lower middle classes of Arab societies are also demanding proportionate political representation and access to financial resources; the Shiites in Lebanon and the new generation of Palestinian leaders in the West Bank and Gaza are prominent examples.
Although an Israeli-Palestinian peace agreement would stall certain political changes in Israel and the Arab world, it would not prevent them. Given their numbers and their growing strength, the marginal elements will ultimately come to power, through either peaceful or violent means. When they do, they will transform the political culture and direction of their societies.
[…]

Posted by: Pat | Dec 5 2004 22:47 utc | 14

Very interesting, Pat. Two questions, therefore: is this the earliest mention of “intifada” that you’ve encountered, and did it have the same concrete meaning in 1989 that it gained in 1998?

Posted by: alabama | Dec 6 2004 6:21 utc | 15

Again, an interesting, impassioned, yet analytical
thread. The link to Raimondo is no longer aimed at his analysis of the AIPAC raid, which can be found
here.
Also, a correction to my earlier rant: the second FBI honcho “retired to Quantico” is Thomas Frields,
not William Frields. Thanks to Cloned Poster for a very interesting link (and site). I would like to be hopeful (and I find such comments as those of Diogenes
and Pat hopeful indications that deep opposition to current policy is not limited to the leftist and libertarian fringes) but the U.S. has just re-elected
Bush who campaigned precisely on his war policy (he certainly had little else to offer). Danforth is leaving the U.N., perhaps one more small sign that moderate Republicans are ill at ease. The AIPAC raid can also be read as a maneuver to discredit the last remaining
opposition within the FBI to neocon ascendancy, and to give new lustre to the by now tarnished “anti-semitism” defense. (Here I admit to being guilty once again of the “tree hit by lightning” syndrome.) The (to me less credible) alternative is that we are about to witness a “change of polarity” with regard to Israel similar (but much more violent, far-reaching, and profound) than that which took place between 1942 and 1950, when
communism in the U.S. went from being the most
committed and progressive form of anti-nazi-ism
to being “un-americanism par excellence .
Either way, it’s not going to be pretty.

Posted by: Hannah K. O’Luthon | Dec 6 2004 6:46 utc | 16

I have a persistent fear that the neoconmen (the xtian ones, that is) are holding in reserve the “blame the Jews” card to play when their various loony strategems inevitably start to backfire — as the economy frizzles, as the national debt balloons to ever more obscene proportions, as the international creditors start looking over our shoulders and tapping their fingers impatiently, what more convenient for the architects of ruin to cry but “We were innocent, we were misled! It is all the fault of the devious, underhanded Jews!”… heck, it’s been known to work before. all too well.
if I were Jewish this would be my great fear — that the neoconmen and the xtian extreme right are playing their Likudnik allies and “friends” for fools, planning to throw US Jewry to the wolves if/when their house of cards collapses. all the swaggering and mafia wheeler-dealery of Wolfie and Perle and Sharon and so on, is not helping. already the usual conspiracy theorists see the disproportionate influence of the Likudnik lobby in DC, Sharon’s amazing Teflon dream coat, and the sort-of-limited hangout of the spy scandal, as “proof” that the WJC — or the Rothschilds — is indeed running the US Gummint. antisemitism is far from dead.
it all scares the heck outta me. am I all alone barking up the paranoia tree on this one, or does anyone else feel very nervous about this setup? at some point, if we’re not reading all the indicators wrong, the US is going to hit some kind of brick wall — militarily, financially, and I would add environmentally/agriculturally as well. some pretty serious and painful dislocation is likely to occur at some point w/in the lifetimes of even us older folks. and when dislocation occurs people get angry and sulky and want someone to blame. adroit leaders have typically shifted the blame onto the “court Jew” and I fear a replay of this classic gambit.

Posted by: DeAnander | Dec 6 2004 7:29 utc | 17

DeAnander, whence is this imagined surge of anti-Semitism? Our country doesn’t have anything like the demographic makeup of Europe before WWII. Are the unemployed workers among us apt to join forces with the white folks in the country clubs of Augusta and Nantucket? Yes, the fundies make a lot of noise, and they love to throw their weight around when it comes to women, children and ex-slaves, but do you think they have anything like the standing and reach of (for example) the great German industrialists of the ’20’s and ’30’s? If this country goes through some kind of convulsion, it won’t visit its cruelty on the Jews or on Israel (since not even our fundies can find the place on the map)….No, it will merely continue to persecute those among its nearest and dearest that it’s persecuted all along–the weak, the poor, the needy, and the disenfranchised. In this land of the Calvinist “elect,” the “unelect” are the swine to be pissed on.

Posted by: alabama | Dec 6 2004 8:10 utc | 18

I dunno, ‘bama… good points. no, I don’t really expect a surge in official, State antisemitism. but I do anticipate some kind of backlash, eventually, against the arrogance of the pro-Israeli camp; and I fear that backlash may not distinguish between “Zionist” and “Jew.” I could be all wrong, of course. the US is such a twitchy place right now, Gawd knows which way it will jump next.

Posted by: DeAnander | Dec 6 2004 8:30 utc | 19

re DeA’s comments on anti-semitic backlash. I wouldn’t be surprised to see that card played among contending sectors of the foreign policy gangs – say in a conflict bet. those wanting to assault more ME countries v. those pushing assaults on the Eastern Front.
I just read Justin Raimondo’s The New Cold War – we’re in a ‘War of Civilizations’, not just against Islam . The “Israel” card could come in handy here.
But I think the rank order of domestic enemies are: 1)democrats – ie. opponents of the Junta 2)Women – Abortion is but the camel’s nose; in a few yrs. good jobs will prob. be all but unobtainable, poss. beg. w/the military 3)Foreigners – esp. poorly educated ones brought in to drive down wages.
The long & short of it being, that Jews are pretty far down on the list, except possibly for high-level foreign policy jobs. Since Rupie Murdoch is Jewish, along w/Sulzburgers & Kath. Graham was 1/2 Jewish, it’s hard to see that it could get too far out of hand or spread to the usual howling about Jewish control of the Media. This assumes Israel doesn’t attack Iran, in which case all bets are off.

Posted by: jj | Dec 6 2004 10:19 utc | 20

Something shocking (and good) that could make the world (esp. the middle east) more stable, imo, would be for the United States, Israel, Pakistan, India, Korea, Iran, Russia, and whereever else to agree to nuclear disarmament…negotiated by third parties.
I realize this has a tissue’s chance in hell, but it would change the tenor of current conflict and would give peacemaking inspectors more importance than bellicose politicians as the world’s people, in the majority it would seem to me, want a reduction in the threats of attacks on nations around the world.
Nations would have to start by changing their rhetoric…and so, right there we know this is nearly impossible to achieve while things exist as they do, since each plays to the security fears of its base to hold its power.
Yet, the idea that nations could freeze their nuclear development was unthinkable until it began to happen earlier, too, so maybe there is a possibility. Since so many govts, like Musharref’s, are unstable, wouldn’t it be in the long-term interests of most govts to remove the threat of nukes in the hands of extremist fundies, whether they’re American of Pakistani?
I wonder if such a scenario might occur if the U.S. does have a severe economic meltdown? but that would also have to coincide with some scandal that pushed the neocons out of power and allowed a more moderate republican (I do not think a democrat could do this in the current climate), ala Nixon, to negotiate.
Or maybe such a meltdown would bring the Buchanan faction, with its populism, forward. Not saying that’s necessarily a good thing overall, but I wonder if it’s the lesser of two evils. Buchanan could and would make the case for isolationism, which could be a cover for the U.S. extracating itself from military involvement in places in the world that give bin Laden a grievance list.
And the plan of withdrawal would put other govts on alert that they had to institute reforms to deal with their own demographic problems…Israel, Saudi Arabia, and on and on.
Maybe if an economic meltdown occurs near the midterm elections, the right wingers will suffer in Congress, for a start, making it possible to bring charges against the current executive branch.
This relates to Israel by way of the U.S. fundies’ absolute support for the most radical extremist settler version of Israel. Buchanan does traffic in some anti-semitism, but I think most Americans are more willing to scapegoat Muslims at this time. Maybe Buchanan-ites would have to create a coalition with republican foreign policy realists to wrest control from the neocons.
Michelle Malkin is writing about Internment, fer crying out loud, she doesn’t mean Jewish academics. But if there is a large-scale attack in the U.S., I think people will call for some sort of expulsion or something other, because of their fears.
If the American people begin to glom the diaster that is Iraq, right wingers will no doubt try to blame liberals who undermined the troops by not supporting an invasion, and the “liberal media” for showing pictures of carnage. Covering their butts, imo, is one reason why the media is so complicit now. Don’t think they’d be able to get away with internment talk, beyond the real fringe, on that one, but such an event would definitely feed the polarization here.
I never thought I could make a case for Buchanan, and I’m certainly not saying I support him, but in the current impasse…
…does anyone want to snap me out of this moment? I’m scaring myself.

Posted by: fauxreal | Dec 6 2004 15:15 utc | 21

@ faux
Maybe we should be trying to convince Barrack Obama
to pick up some of Buchanan’s populist rhetoric. A few years ago calling the U.S. congress Israeli occupied territory seemed “beyond the pale”: now it seems banal
and obvious (at least to many more than would have
been imaginable a short before the invasion of Iraq).
Isolationism could be the best internationalism for the
next couple of generations in the U.S. It will be interesting to see if the AIPAC “spy” scandal evolves to the point where no congressman wants to be seen as taking money from agents of a foreign power ( highly unlikely but one can dream, especially since that is substantially the fact of the matter with regard to AIPAC).

Posted by: Hannah K. O’Luthon | Dec 6 2004 16:20 utc | 22