Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
November 3, 2004
What’s Lost?

Not the election of Kerry so far.

But it does not look good. As projected, this most probably will be decided in courtrooms (to be precise – in backrooms of courtrooms) and that is where the Republicans have the advantage.

The beacon of democracy has lost some more of the light it once had. Irrational electoral college rules, defect and uncontrollable machines, thousands of lawyers and partisan selected judges make people around the world shake their head.

What’s coming now?

Iraq is a mess and will be worse in January/February 2005. There are no good chances. A win for the US is impossible – to loose is unacceptable for the US majority – escalation is probable. The only sure thing – more people will die violently there and elsewhere. The social agenda that will be legislated during the coming four years will deepen the divide we are already seeing. The world economy is at stall speed with all signs pointing down – even with a possible end-year DOW rally – no win possible here.

Bill Fleckenstein (pay-site), a bearish but successful, fund manager commented yesterday:

I believe that in the next four years, a lot of hopes and dreams are going to be shattered, and hearts will be broken. In my opinion, the winning party this time will perhaps lose for the next couple decades. So, the silver lining may go to the losing party, as it may only have to wait four years for a chance to reign supreme for a while.

We will not be sure who is the future President of the US for some more days. But we can be sure that some damage is done – more may be coming.

It is a cold wet foggy day here. Winter is at the doorstep.

(8:53am – after a walk at the harbourside let me add) And following winter it’s spring.

Comments

Put well, Bernhard, put very well indeed! I’ve been pretty quiet lately–preparing for this moment, I suppose–because I think we have to keep cool, and remember what we’re about, and not give in to rage or despair. Reality, after all, is something real, and it’s breaking down the walls of Bush’s fantasy-world. He will, as is his habit, blame all this breaking-down on anyone but himself, and his loyal servants will be the first to feel the heat. He’ll spend a lot of time and energy making excuses, and it’s not our job to say him nay. No, it’s our job to think our way out of the messes that he and his friends have created, and we aren’t alone in this enterprise.

Posted by: alabama | Nov 3 2004 8:37 utc | 1

The lights have gone out in America, the dark ages are upon us.

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Nov 3 2004 8:46 utc | 2

alabama writes:
No, it’s our job to think our way out of the messes that he and his friends have created, and we aren’t alone in this enterprise.
Hello, old friend. I haven’t been around in a long time either. Regardless of the outcome, the above statement is true. Perhaps, it is my thinking, if the Democrats took alabama’s sentiments above more seriously from the beginning this election would have been more of a sure thing. Ninety-five percent of the delegates to the Democratic convention were anti-war, and to my disappointment (people should not be surprised) it was not until the final two weeks of the campaign or so that the Democrat leadership seemed to take this seriously as a valid campaign issue or differential between themselves and the Republicans.
Regardless of what happens, alabama’s statement is more true than ever. And I don’t even want to think about the Supreme Court (shudder).
What I really hope is that, especially if they do not win this election, the Democrats wake up and understand that these issues are the crux of what can provide leadership to the country, and not retreat into further campaigning or strategies that try to out-Bush Bush somehow. I see Kerry’s ending surges in the polls as a result of his taking on the war issue and trying to claim a difference with Bush.
Note: I just heard that if, after the privisional votes are counted in Ohio it’s still an equal race — Ohio’s electoral votes get decided by a coin toss!

Posted by: x | Nov 3 2004 8:51 utc | 3

Germany, January 1938. That’s where we are now.
Sure, Bush will come crashing down and if things were normal it would mean a long reign of Dems in the future. Except that Bush can wreck the planet so much in the next 4 years there won’t be much left to save, if anything. With his warmongering, his now obvious desire to provoke some kind of Armageddon like Hitler in later WWII, his destruction of the environment in every possible way just like Sauron, he can really doom mankind for real. Not that we’ll all be dead before the end of a 2nd Bush mandate, but there may well not be any coming back and we may well be on an unescapable path to final destruction by this time.
Now, do you think they’ll hit Iran before the end of the year, or next year?

Posted by: CluelessJoe | Nov 3 2004 8:55 utc | 4

@Cloned Poster, is that a thought or a feeling? Is it a function of Bu$hCo returning to power, or no matter what?
for myself, I think it’ll be far worse if Kerry doesn’t step in. Tragically, he’s no FDR, as their party website goes way out of it’s way to emphasize, and I agree he’ll probably be a one term president. But if the fascists allowed 4 more years, there won’t be another election.
But on another level our civ. was built on cheap oil & a flexible, forgiving natural universe filled w/the bounty of the Ages. In one century we’ve devoured it all. This Dark Ages will last far longer than the last one, probably eternity…..whenever I see a child, I want to cry. I cannot even imagine what life here will be like in 20 or 50 years and I don’t want to.

Posted by: jj | Nov 3 2004 9:00 utc | 5

PS I quite seriously want to add that, if I had my way, Bush and especially Rummy, Wolfie, Feith and the lot of them would be tried for treason. And I do mean that sincerely.

Posted by: x | Nov 3 2004 9:02 utc | 6

Hi x, welcome back.
I think you are right on the anti-war issue. In foreign policy the Dems did try to pass Bush on the right. That did look inconsequential – at least to me.

Posted by: b | Nov 3 2004 9:04 utc | 7

i missed you birds!(and the birds come home to roost)

Posted by: onzaga | Nov 3 2004 9:07 utc | 8

@x, I agree.
re Iran – Well, for starter’s Fallujah tomorrow. After that…I fear that even if/when Kerry pulls it off – I think he will as significant sectors of the elites know they’re too dangerous to remain in power (looks for maybe interesting leaks from CIA & the Brass to help things along) – Wolfie et al could plot w/Israel & have them attack Iran before Inauguration to force Kerry’s hand…..I Really Fear That….I’m terrified of giving them this period….they could do things here & declare martial law & refuse to hand over power….These guys are unfathomably Evil & Dangerous…..I can’t believe I’m having thoughts like this about America…..Exporting Democracy to Iraq – excuse me while I vomit…..

Posted by: jj | Nov 3 2004 9:08 utc | 9

oh shit hes gonna do it, aaaaahhhhhhaaaaahhhhhhh!

Posted by: onzaga | Nov 3 2004 9:16 utc | 10

what states had diebold?

Posted by: onzaga | Nov 3 2004 9:17 utc | 11

Democrats–well, some Democrats–will have to step forward and offer a sustained, reasoned and detailed critique of our relationship to the war party in Israel. They will have to educate the rest of us about the costs of a civil war between Israelis and Palestinians, and the weird ways in which this local conflict has trammelled up our foreign policy all over the world. Those Democrats will have to run against AIPAC, forego the funding of AIPAC, and prepare to campaign against someone serving the interests of AIPAC. Only thus will the schemes and appetities of the neo-cons come into focus, and stimulate the emergence of a counter-movement.

Posted by: alabama | Nov 3 2004 9:19 utc | 12

Well, either way, USians are more stupid as a body than I thought. Even if Kerry squeaks in, Bush looks like taking the popular vote. That means that despite his gross incompetence, his self-serving evil and his disconnect from reality, more than 50% of those who could be bothered voting voted for him.
Germany 1938 is right: it could go either way, but a descent into theocratic totalitarianism looks a lot more likely now. Perhaps (ironically) more like Iran than Nazi Germany.

Posted by: Colman | Nov 3 2004 9:27 utc | 13

The election was lost when the Democrats supported the Iraq war.

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Nov 3 2004 11:47 utc | 14

It looks like 4 years of ill humor and anguish.
I too hope that some “countervailing forces” will appear on the horizon (and I agree that some elite factions
are appalled at what the theocrats have wrought), but
it looks dark, dark, dark. Even an economic collapse could well render the descent into fascism steeper and more brutal. There are times when it feels safer to be an expatriate. The fundies don’t want the goods that the progressives are selling, but they can’t seem to get enough of that Bushite Kool-aid.

Posted by: Hannah K. O’Luthon | Nov 3 2004 12:04 utc | 15

“It is a cold wet foggy day here. Winter is at the doorstep.”
Right now, bernhard, there sounds better than here. Got room for refugees?

Posted by: beq | Nov 3 2004 12:09 utc | 16

An interesting article on “moral values” (from a “Christians for Dean” website):
Why Kerry Lost
Are not 100,000 dead Iraqis, chaos and calamity and violence not moral issues?
More thoughts on “moral values” — I think domestic healthcare insurance is a huge looming issue. Why is that not also a moral issue?
Just thinking to the future here, folks…

Posted by: x | Nov 3 2004 12:12 utc | 17

oops… (sigh)
Why Kerry Lost

Posted by: x | Nov 3 2004 12:13 utc | 18

“counterveiling forces”? Well, apart from a major uprising (and I mean it literally), there’s no hope from inside. You just have to wait until an outside counterveiling force will push the US hard enough to fall and bring down the fascists with them.

Posted by: CluelessJoe | Nov 3 2004 12:15 utc | 19

Clueless Joe:
I saw an absolutely clear illustration of fascism two days ago in an Ohio “on the spot” interview with potential voters. There was the first woman interviewed, a Kerry supporter, concerned about the war and what it will produce in terms of its effects, deficits, etc. Then there was a rather “perfectly” made up woman, hair plastered in place, saying that Americans know that Bush will stay the course and finish the war on terrorism and Kerry will not. It was most definitely not an “on the spot” interview with the public but rather someone spouting the line from the party who got posted into that interview. Then a man, older, a big beefy guy, a conservative at heart who quite obviously thought the war was a big mistake, wanted to vote against Bush but would not say who he would or would not support and glanced nervously at the perfectly coifed woman while he spoke. He obviously did not want to speak in front of her. I have never seen, in this country (at least in my lifetime) something so obvious a clear pattern of fascism as you would see in other places under the rule of real military Juntas and parties that call themselves fascist and everybody understands them as such. I have seen countries in that situation and real fascism. That was it.

Posted by: x | Nov 3 2004 12:23 utc | 20

Sadly, I think it is almost time for those of us outside the US to give up on it for a generation and to do what we can to protect the enlightenment outside the US. We need to resist the boost this will give the right-wing in our own countries, and to build a Europe that can act, together with China, as a counterweight to an insane superpower, unconstrained by the demands of reality.

Posted by: Colman | Nov 3 2004 12:38 utc | 21

@ Colman:
How about a pre-emptive strike to bring us (US) Democracy?

Posted by: beq | Nov 3 2004 12:46 utc | 22

I kept a positive attitude the whole election. I really thought kerry could pull it off. I was wrong. I have watched Flickenstein for a long time and he is very on the ball.
I predict near depression status especially for manufacturing heavy states like Michigan, Ohio, Penn, etc. The only money flowing in this country is military money and that is proping up the states with bases and military contractors. This will not last.
Keep your head up. I believe it was Kate Storm that said the country will need to get really bad before people wake up. Nadar belives this also. We are on that path.

Posted by: jdp | Nov 3 2004 12:59 utc | 23

I am disgusted that so many Americans would vote for Bush.
Yes, I have serious doubts about the Diebold voting machine results, but this issue cannot be resolved by the very nature of the fraud. I will be shocked if Ohio does not go to Bush with all the dirty tricks.
Nevertheless, significant portions of Americans voted to put a man back in office who is happy to destroy this planet in a host of ways: environmental deregulation and war-mongering chief among these.
This is the president who had his lawyers write justifications for the torture and rape of innocent women and children.
What a moral man.
It’s time to take a clue from the republicans and tell my fellow republican-voting Americans to go fuck themselves. Let them cry when their children are killed for profit. Let them suffer when they have no justice. Let them stew in the poison their corporate pimps unleash upon the earth. Let them choke on the vomit they have spewed upon the world.

Posted by: fauxreal | Nov 3 2004 13:12 utc | 24

More thoughts for the future:
Is a draft inevitable? What effect will that have on the public? If there is no draft how will they continue with their war plans? etc etc (And will Colin Powell still be Sec of State, btw?)

Posted by: x | Nov 3 2004 13:39 utc | 25

x: The more I think about it, the more I wonder what really happened. The massive turnout of minorities, the numerous cases of conservatives saying they wouldn’t vote Bush, yet even though he lost by 500.000 votes last time, he seems to win by 3.500.000 this time? Were all these Republicans we knew just pulling our legs by saying they were fed up with Bush? Was it the biggest electoral fraud since the first post-WWII elections in Italy?
fauxreal:
Some political commentator recently said: “In conclusion, I tell you in truth, that your security is not in the hands of Kerry, nor Bush, nor al-Qaida. No. Your security is in your own hands.” (ok, that wasn’t really a political commentator)
It’s time for all those who voted Bush, all those who find it OK to have both houses and White House in wingnut fundie neo-con control for the next 4 years, to feel the full consequences of their actions. Ship them all to Iraq, without flak jacket, without humvees, armed with just a handgun and a handful of bullets, and let them fight, and die to the last one, for their fascist empire.
Colman: I’m not sure it will strengthen the right-wing abroad, frankly. I think we should wait a few days until the rest of the world fully realise what it means: GOP winning seats in both houses, Bush above 50%, and even if they massively cheated, apparently still a very close election. It means at least half the American people supporting, even fully endorsing these criminal, suicidal and murderous policies. When the rest of the world will fully realise what it really means, I think the fallout will be pretty strong, and very lasting. I said it before, but I really think the next time Al-Qaeda hits in the USA, there won’t be many people mourning, outside the US.

Posted by: CluelessJoe | Nov 3 2004 13:41 utc | 26

Quote (Kos):
But best of all, we’ll continue to see this great resurgence in progressive activism – the kind not seen in American politics in over a generation. None of these new activists heeded the call to arms only to abandon the fight today. We are energised, and will continue to fight for a better future for our country.
***
Unfortunately Marcus you are wrong here. Apathy will follow and not any time soon Democrats will see any kind of energy like this election year.
Things will need to be very very BAD FOR AMERICANS . Shit needs to come to their nose for people so that most of them have not much to lose.
Unfortunately many many Iraqis civilians and others will have to die …but who ever cared for them. Americans killed 100 000 in First Golf war and another 100 000 till now in this war. Talking about genocide and genocidal nations (as you called Serbs during Balkan wars)…
One good thing is (according to some Australian analyst tonight on TV) that USA has JUST ONE ARMY and it is stretched and will be very busy in Iraq for LOOOOONGGG time to come. And hopefully no one is to help Bush (including Australia as it seems) with serious number of fresh “blood”. So it’s unlikely that Bushco can start another war any time soon.

Posted by: vbo | Nov 3 2004 13:49 utc | 27

@beq
I’m just hoping that we have enough time before the US will sit still for an invasion of Europe. We need to tread very carefully, building up our strength without provoking the lunatic in the corner.
I’m hoping that we have twenty years. And don’t forget, we do have nukes, which seem to be the only thing that will keep those bastards out.

Posted by: Colman | Nov 3 2004 14:10 utc | 28

@CluelessJoe
I don’t really mean it as directly as that, at least not entirely, and not in the English-speaking world. There are two effects that worry me:
* US media jump on the bandwagon even more so. That means half of the entertainment watched will assume that the right-wing are correct and moral. It’s bad enough now.
* The same sort of effect you got when the USSR imploded: “socialism is dead – look where it got the USSR”.

Posted by: Colman | Nov 3 2004 14:12 utc | 29

I’m so ashamed that my country could vote Bush in for another four years.
This is such a day of sadness and anger. I can’t express it.

Posted by: ByteB | Nov 3 2004 14:14 utc | 30

Quote (jdp):
The only money flowing in this country is military money and that is proping up the states with bases and military contractors. This will not last.
***
Yes USA is not leading in many fields today and to sustain this kind of standard of their citizens it needs to lead the world in many many fields .But it’s behind. The only thing they are definitely superior is Military. The only way to use it is WAR. My husband said something today that is so true :”They do not make this kind of Military to make street parade. It was communist who did it” So they are about to rob who ever they want/can. Trouble is that history is teaching us how this things progress and how they end up. They start small but they can’t stop. They usually end up when they try to “eat more that they can swallow”…and then comes big BANG.

Posted by: vbo | Nov 3 2004 14:15 utc | 31

my respect for alabama is public knowledge here but i cannot disagree more formally if fraternally
this is not the time for cold or coool reflection
it is the time for rage & it is time for anger
it is time for other methods to be used in your country – methods that have a long a honoralble history – that of civil disobediance, that of an activity that brings the war home – so that the fools – charlatans cannot hide the terrible realities of this world from your population – for me that is your duty
to go beyond talk & relection & commisseration & look for ways to make this four years unliveable for this administration – to prove that this whole corrup^t crew belong not in the legislature but in jail
after watching outfoxed last night – i was more surprised than i should have been – how they hate the people – they do not trust them & they work with diligence at the lowest common denominator – exactly like goebbells – the repitition, the screaming & whining – which is neither anger or sadness but a clumsy theatrical affect put to use
no it is not the time to be calm – it seems to me from here that the ‘best & brightest’ have done solid work but they have not done enough – that is clear today
bush’s win in the popular vote say more about the efficacity of our enemies & the organisation of our enemies than it does about the population
but as i have sd in relation to australia – a bill must paid – & your population will pay it
i hope against hope that kerry will net roll over like a dog – there is nothing optimistic in bush’s win – what he has done in four years is unimaginable what he will do in the next is beyond horror – for you & for us
still steel

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 3 2004 14:21 utc | 32

@remembereringgiap
You know, that is the one of the first posts of yours I have been 100% in agreement with. We all need to fight this, because darkness in the US will spread to stifle us all.

Posted by: Colman | Nov 3 2004 14:31 utc | 33

I’m just hoping that we have enough time before the US will sit still for an invasion of Europe. We need to tread very carefully, building up our strength without provoking the lunatic in the corner.
I’m hoping that we have twenty years.
***
I don’t know…maybe less…but something definitely needs to be done ASP…
And where am I to go when Asians find out that USA is to busy to cover us here with it’s “umbrella”?

Posted by: vbo | Nov 3 2004 14:33 utc | 34

Billmon has spoken

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Nov 3 2004 14:41 utc | 35

I think I might hate Billmon.

Posted by: Colman | Nov 3 2004 14:43 utc | 36

From the ever-optimistic Jérôme:
Well, maybe this way, we can finally impeach Bush and make him pay for his acts!
(Most likely I am as successful in this predictions as last time…
I am genuinely surprised by today’s result. I hope Kerry fights and drags this on for as long as possible, if only to limit to the maximum Bush’s internal legitimacy (world opinion is lost anyway, I’m with Clueless on that one).
Bush, the first president to be “re”-“elected”.

Posted by: Jérôme | Nov 3 2004 14:52 utc | 37

the dark lord won. darkness is upon us. goodbye America, we loved you.

Posted by: NEPAJim | Nov 3 2004 14:54 utc | 38

IT AIN’T OVER UNTIL THE FAT LADY SINGS ~ Yogi Berra

Posted by: Captain America | Nov 3 2004 15:04 utc | 39

IT AIN’T OVER UNTIL THE FAT LADY SINGS ~ Yogi Berra

Posted by: Captain America | Nov 3 2004 15:04 utc | 40

Bye Bye Hungary

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Nov 3 2004 15:11 utc | 41

Driving my second grader to school this morning, I explained that it looks like we might have 4 more years of President Bush. She surprised me by responding “But mommy, what about the rights of women and girls?”
[lump in throat] To buck up her spirits, I explained to her that, just like the song in the movie Mary Poppins, we will have to organize the ‘sister suffragettes’ for our own “daughters’ daughters”…
The election results showed that the margin of victory for Bush and for the Republicans was provided by the voters who placed ‘moral values’ above the question of the Iraq War, proving Rove strategy correct. Translation: anti-women’s rights activists are gaining in the US.
The feminist organizations and the Democratic Party have marginalized themselves by writing off large portions of the female electorate to focus exclusively on minority issues. These so-called women’s rights organizations must be convinced of the need to activate the sleeping giant: employed and formerly-employed married suburban mothers.

Posted by: gylangirl | Nov 3 2004 15:14 utc | 42

“I was always astonished at the extraordinary good nature and lack of malice with which men who had been flogged spoke of their beatings and of those who had inflicted them…”-Dostoevsky (Memoirs From the House of the Dead)

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Nov 3 2004 15:19 utc | 43

Here’s one link for mobilization efforts w/i the US today. Day of Popular Protest and Civil Disobedience. We need to fight back on all levels. Resistance takes as many forms as the offenses it opposes. Both alabama and r-giap are correct. The only certainty is that the time to act is now.

Posted by: b real | Nov 3 2004 15:51 utc | 44

Jérôme: You lived through last French presidential election, so you should know that these things happen. Except that Le Pen never had a snowball’s chance in Hell of winning, and only had a few hundreds of nukes on his watch.
And, seriously, if US people thought the rest of the world, notably Europe, and of course the Muslim/Arab world, was anti-American, they just saw the milder version; it won’t be pretty in the coming years, probably on both sides of the Atlantic.
So, now, it seems that 80-85% of the Bush-enablers voted him in because of terror and security concerns. To plagiarise a good old friend of the US of a past gone long ago, they had the choice between shame and terrorism, they chose shame and they will get terrorism. I hope they’ll realise it if Al-Qaeda hits again.
Colman: Not sure I get your analogy with USSR. It’s always been my opinion that if the US goes down, the claisscal capitalist system will go down as well and will be as completely discredited as stalinism. If it ever happens, I personally hope religion as a political compass will go down as well and secularism will prevail on most of the planet, but I doubt it.

Posted by: CluelessJoe | Nov 3 2004 15:56 utc | 45

Gosh, can’t we all just get along…Until the staged terror attack?

Posted by: TP | Nov 3 2004 16:04 utc | 46

Just heard Kerry conceded in a phone call to the WH.
I thought the “moral values” question was important because there were anti-gay marriage initiatives on ballots in 10 states. Those who turned out to vote on that issue also voted for Bush. That’s why the Democrats need to quit ignoring the moral high ground and make it their own on issues like the war, health care, etc.

Posted by: x | Nov 3 2004 16:09 utc | 47

FOX & Wal-Mart, from a biz news story in yesterday’s USA Today

Shoppers at any of 2,620 Wal-Marts tonight will see live election coverage via a link with Fox News. The coverage is a way to keep shoppers and employees informed, says Charlie Nooney, CEO of Premier Retail Networks, the nation’s largest in-store TV network.

Wal-Mart is simply broadcasting the schedule pre-arranged by Premier Retail Networks, says Wal-Mart spokesman Gus Whitcomb

So will the Waltons change the comp logo from blue to red now?

Posted by: b real | Nov 3 2004 16:11 utc | 48

You can be sure the election was stolen in Florida and Ohio.
As for the view that the GOP will thankfully be left holding the shitbag of economic collapse and perpetual war: this is perhaps the silver lining for the American ‘left.’
However, I suspect that the more things change for the worse, the more likely neofascism will seize on what is so ugly in the American psyche. The dissolution of ‘the American way’ will simply be scapegoated and brown skinned people will be murdered like never before. The killing up to now has been child’s play.
There is not the least hope for a domestic mobilization of opposition to this juggernaut of stupidity. Rather, the solution can only be achieved by the ‘bleed-until-bankruptcy plan.’

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 3 2004 16:12 utc | 49

Kerry concedes.
Speech at 1 p.m.

Posted by: fauxreal | Nov 3 2004 16:14 utc | 50

Hail to the grief, George W. Bush.
I’ll retire to bedlam.

Posted by: Harrow | Nov 3 2004 16:19 utc | 51

Slothrop, read this

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Nov 3 2004 16:23 utc | 52

@Clueless Joe
Sure, when it goes down. But that could take ages.

Posted by: Colman | Nov 3 2004 16:26 utc | 53

“Everyone wants to go to Tehran. Real men want to go to Beijing.”

Posted by: Harrow | Nov 3 2004 16:44 utc | 54

Slothrop: Easy, the liberals and foreigners are responsible for the economic collapse, they ruined our nation, they stole from us, they keep *our* Middle-Eastern oil, they are the enemy and should be rounded up, shipped to the camps, and, well, why not pour them into giant ovens?
“If it was good enough for the Germans, it’s good enough for the Americans” is probably Bush and Rove motto.
Colman: In January 1917, a depressed exiled Lenin wrote to some Russian friend “I think that, with luck, our grandchildren will live to see the revolution.” If history is any guide, we’re far closer than you think.

Posted by: CluelessJoe | Nov 3 2004 17:21 utc | 55

@slothrop – in my county (state went red) kerry took 80% and bush 19%. whether or not domestic opposition will manifest a solid challenge to the fascists, demonstrations can strengthen a community and empower its members. surely that is a sign of hope.

Posted by: b real | Nov 3 2004 17:37 utc | 56

b real
you must live in bozeman, lawrence, boulder…? Academics are a dying breed. My red state is starving higher education. Professional training in universities further starves the humanities. Progressives around here are cloistered in their shrinking unreal cities.
Better learn how to clean squirrels.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 3 2004 18:02 utc | 57

actually it’s blue collar around here in STL and rather sleepy as far as activism goes, but we know a criminal when we see one. sent ashcroft that msg after they had carnahan killed before his re-election.

Posted by: b real | Nov 3 2004 18:11 utc | 58

er..i meant his election to the senate

Posted by: b real | Nov 3 2004 18:19 utc | 59

So, maybe I was right a few weeks or months back or whenever that was — that Kerry and his team were merely hired actors, paid to put up a pretense of a campaign, a surface sham of democracy, a “consumer choice” illusion — and then take a dive when instructed. His capitulation this morning has come as a mild surprise but not a shock.
I think this comment is worth a read. It comes from a dear friend and ex-Communist with long experience. For those who are short on time here’s the nub:

It may seem odd to call the US “besieged” when it’s obviously more powerful (militarily) than any other country in the world–maybe more powerful than all of them put together. (60,000 nuclear warheads…) And US troops are in Iraq, Afghanistan, Colombia, etc. etc. But think about the Whiteboy Whine for a moment–the sullen, self-pitying complaint that people of color are taking all the jobs, that women are out of line, that immigrants are conversing incomprehensibly instead of learning English, that (as one rightwing rant put it last week) “We can’t say ‘Merry Christmas’ any more, we have to say ‘Season’s Greetings.'” These claims are all as false as the last one (though that one is funnier.) But they’re usually impervious to rebuttal by facts about employment or earnings or anything else, and politicians who know how to tap into these feelings of beleaguered-ness and resentment reap a rich harvest of votes.
I think the sense of being under siege resembles that mortal fear that gripped the slaveowning class in the old South. The actual chance of a successful, region-wide slave revolt was always tiny, though local uprisings, before being crushed, could and did inflict some damage. But what haunted the slaveowners was a sense that their power was illegitimate, that (as Jefferson put it) they should tremble when they reflected that God was just. (This is an interesting application of those Enlightenment ideals slanderous mentioned, inasmuch as those ideals included an appeal to Natural Right, and slavery was hard to reconcile with Natural Right–except, as it turned out, by invoking a pseudo-scientific version of “nature.”) In short they felt under attack because they had a bad conscience.
[…] I said to slanderous last night that there are times when I’m glad I’m 62. Maybe you younger folks will live to see the dawn of a better world, and I won’t, and that’s tough luck on me. Maybe, on the other hand, you won’t, and you’ll be 62 and discouraged, but I’ll have a good laugh, because I’ll be dead. (I won’t really laugh–I’m not that mean.)

Bush played strongly to the Whiteboy Whine and to the fantasy of being besieged. Between that and some clever voter fraud, he managed to grab the White House. What’s important to note is that even without the voter fraud (maddening though that is in its own right) he might have pulled it off. Even if Kerry had squeaked in, what this election says about the public mood is frightening. The reality-based community has lost control and the ideology-based or faith-based community has got the bit in its teeth. When that happens in any country, in any context, trouble follows.
Now, alabama believes that reality will batter down the door of the faith-based mindset, but I think he’s being unduly optimistic. The pattern of ideological solipsism, be it left-hand or right-hand threaded, is to screw itself in ever deeper — it has no other response. The more reality contradicts ideology, the more brutal and desperate become the attempts to smash reality into the mould of ideology. I can imagine without difficulty a future America (coming soon to a theatre near you) where reports of heavy weather, loss of crops, loss of life and property, etc. will be censored from the newscasts because the official US position is that global warming and climate destabilisation are not happening — that kind of thing. In general, an entrenched non-reality-based power structure doesn’t fall until it suffers catastrophic failure. It doesn’t get clues. And even after catastrophic failure, after absolutely conclusive proof that it didn’t work and never could have worked and brought misery to millions, there will still be dead-enders for whom all the evidence in the world isn’t enough, who will insist that their perfect system or heroic army was “sabotaged from within” and would have worked just fine if not for betrayal, conspiracy, etc etc.
So I agree with vbo: though the US has probably launched itself with vigour onto the declining ballistic curve of Empire, though its looted economy is not likely to recover with the chief looters remaining in charge, and though things are likely to get very bad for large numbers of Americans (and monstrously bad for all those other people out there who don’t matter because they live in countries we can’t find on a map) — the notion that all this bad karma coming home will actually teach anyone anything, is not a safe bet. The first response will be to blame foreigners, the second will be to imagine, invent, seek out and destroy “fifth columnists” and enemies within. In the end only exhaustion and bankruptcy terminate the arc of grandiose delusion, mania and denial: as the system fails, its grip tightens and tightens rather than loosening.
Alternatively, the insane PNAC plan may succeed for longer than we think. In our lifetimes, the US may be a very successful banana republic and colonial power, ruthlessly silencing dissent at home, ruthlessly occupying and looting abroad. The only countervailing power is China, which is not quite ready to stand up to the big bully yet. What I do know is that Banana Republican America, the total surveillance, total paranoia, All Patriotism All The Time Fox News(peak) America, is not a country I want to live in.

Posted by: DeAnander | Nov 3 2004 18:28 utc | 60

super craptastic.
well, that’s it for me, I’m checking out of this forum, this echo chamber. we’re fuct, and we’ll be taking the rest of the world down with us. So go ahead, flee, flee to Canada, or Europe, or to a remote island- it matters not. The last hope we have, and it is a slim one, is to get out there and change someone’s mind and stop bitching to one another here, or at Kos, or wherever.
Might want to work on your skills at field-stripping AK-47s while you’re at it.
best to all y’all

Posted by: æ | Nov 3 2004 18:50 utc | 61

Just listening to the BEEB, some Wall Street pundit is complaining about the twin deficits………….NOW!

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Nov 3 2004 18:52 utc | 62

@æ – stay a while – we can fun here to
Cloned Poster – while you’re at it.
Today the White House found something that was totaly unknown yesterday White House: Debt Ceiling Must Be Raised

The Bush administration announced Wednesday that it will run out of maneuvering room to manage the government’s massive borrowing needs in two weeks, putting more pressure on Congress to raise the debt ceiling when it convenes for a special post-election session.

Many things like that are in the pipeline – we should take care that they are at least noted. May help in four years.

Posted by: b | Nov 3 2004 19:01 utc | 63

Just to show that I don’t always post Gloom and Doom, here’s a thought from outside the box:
Can Bush be forced to be better? After all, Nixon signed the EPA into law and pushed a few other progressive issues. That’s because he had to; the force from below was too strong to resist. Is Bush susceptible to such pressure? It seems unlikely, but i’d rather say, “Who knows” and “Who cares”. That Bush might be the most dangerous person to inhabit the Oval Office is not meaningless, but it’s not the end of the world, either. The most effective ways of changing the world have always been bottom-up without rising too high. The co-op where we played the indymedia election coverage was started in 1970. Other co-ops started all over the country around then and in the early 70’s. A revolution to eat well and grow sustainably rose up, and is now mature and successful enough to be the target of corporate co-optation. No president in that time significantly helped or hurt the co-op movement. Nor has any president in that time slowed down corporate media consolidation or addressed homelessness. More and more, I feel we should simply operate as if the federal government is irrelevant and see if we can make it true. Build our own regional networks for food, media, energy, etc., and take care of ourselves. Run down the system by unplugging as many people as possible from it. It can’t run without our juice.
The more people see how much freer it feels outside, the better.

from counterpunch today. and I would add that this is how the rightwingnuts have built their power base — by withdrawing from the consensus and building their own institutions from the grassroots upwards. whether this cultural balkanisation is the best thing for a country I dunno. it seems potentially dangerous. but it beats being steamrollered by the pseudo-Christian far Right.

Posted by: DeAnander | Nov 3 2004 19:02 utc | 64

again i am here & i am weeping for you & for us . kerry has just rolled over. the american populace contrary to all expectations has chosen the most ideological administration in their history in the same way that germans knowingly elected hitler & continued to offer him & his party succour after the enabling act. i don’t think tha analogy is incorrect. the nazis devoted a great deal of time to corrupt the legislative & judicial apparatus. the party was also with the film industry quick to understand the importancee of the mass media. the professionals needed to be implicated & bought off- which they were – doctors, lawyers & schoolteachers filled the offices of the ss disproprortionally
fear & old claims were also an integral part of the party’s attraction & something that was developed with a refinement that only a karl rove or a rupert murdoch could understand
the ‘eternal enemy’ was placed at the centre of all their ideological efforts
they pursued ‘moral values’ while to a man they were perverted men & i mean that in its deepest sense
heidegger dreamed of the ethics that nazi’s would create & he participated in their construction as a rector & as a primary influence on what passed for jurists & technocrats & this false claiming of a ‘higher’ moral value permitted the genocide in the east. this is not many shades different from the practical policies & practical ends of this administration
up until 1937/38 – so called ‘community’ organisations ‘seemed’ to play an important role but they were increasing sidelined until they followed edicts absolutely & the party itself like the republican party treated their country like a fief & so there became no difference between public policy & private corruption
‘community’ organisations only started to be reused like mechanisms at the begginning of the war in russia & especially the first winter but by this time they were so implicated in the crimes of their masters their was no pulling back – though the genocide of jews was common knowledge & the realities of the war in the east were also evident
for me the parallels are not literary – they are just & correct in form & in substance. capital has changed its way of working but the end effects are the same. imperialism as lenin noted is the highest stage of capitalism. what is happening & what will happen to the arab people will incrementally get worse & i believe it will do so quickly
the recent movement in latin america towards a more decent & democratic form of govt have their roots practically & ideologically with cuba & fidel & chile & salvador allende. america is crazy enough to teach these new democrats a lesson & so i think these bastards are crazy enough to attack openly cuba in a direct way – a country they have already deformed beyond recognition. & they will do it because it is easy
they are neither stupid enough nor courageous enough to fight an iran or north korea because they are weak in their will & they are incompetent in their action & these societies will fight back as the iraquis are showing us – & these people are fighting like devils for their dignity, their honour & their nation – they are doing so selflessly – without much promise for a new future under any circumstances but the iraquis are teaching the world that to bend to thugs & criminals is a guarantee for worse things to come – that as ho chi mihn sd there is nothing more precious than national independence & freedom
the iraquis are showing us what it means to be cultured, what it means to have a backbone – everybody knows here i have no respect from theocrats of any kind but it is no the theocrats doing the fighting no matter what bush or murdoch want to say – it is the iraqui people themselves & they are teaching the world a lesson & they are teaching it at a price that is horrendous
i have come to feel so close to people here – there is something real & human & feel horrified for you – without melodrama – i feel as a people & a nation – you really are in danger. the destruction of your legislative & judicial apparatus is total. its finished. these institutions will need to be rebuilt. but first they need to be utterly destroyed – metaphorically if not actually – the seeds of the new are borne in the flames of the old – there will have to be a dismantling at a very basic level & this can only be done by a mass movement – not by a vanguard though that too is a necessity in times of history like we are living through
the choice is clear & open – to be ‘good germans’ or to construct a resistance that has meaning and a reality. intellectual workers have a special obligation – in this time all we have learned must be put at the service of something outside ourselves; intellectuals have a responsibility at a practical level to provide a context & contexts in a world that is governed with the complete dissapearance of those ‘contexts’
but you know there is something basic – perhaps i have too many illussions even in my ill health – what upsets me is this group of criminals complete absence of grace or even of good manners. announcing their victory before kerry resigned is just but one of their complete absence of manners, of decency
& that is the choice – americans were making – between human decency & reflection & barbarism & impulse. & if it were not for you i would see america as that screaming harridan of a man – bill o’reilly threatened by any truth entering his bubble by screaming loike a carcrash. i would see america as stupid & cruel – which the americans here have proved not to be the case – but we are a minority – you are a minority in face of an open choice of barbarism
the europeans have only one choice – they have to mark the difference between them and america not their commonality. they should throw england to the americans – their vain dreams are one & the same. europe must fight against its proper corruption which is small compared to the sacking of the populations & institutions in america – but even if the corruption is of a ‘village’ nature it needs to be eliminated to not give material for the fascists in europe who will be learning lessons from their american brothers
we need to look to the iraqui resistance to see what it means to have a backbone – the vietnames have taught us already that a people guided by their real not imagined interests can create beauty & power from even the most barbaric enemy
still steel

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 3 2004 19:29 utc | 65

Funny that Nixon gets mentioned here b/c I was just thinking of him, what w/ the anniv of the occupation of Alcatraz right around the corner. Nixon was forced to address Native American issues after Indians started fighting for their rights, dignity and control over their own destinies. There are many histories of resistance on this land.

Posted by: b real | Nov 3 2004 19:31 utc | 66

judge a man by his friends & look who goes to bush door to offer congratualations & thanks – the corrupt little functionary putin – thei first in line
if these are the friends of america – i humbly hope i am enemy of america
still steel

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 3 2004 19:48 utc | 67

 The War on Iraq Has Made Moral Cowards of Us All
    By Scott Ritter
    The Guardian U.K.
    Monday 01 November 2004
More than 100,000 Iraqis have died – and where is our shame and rage?
    The full scale of the human cost already paid for the war on Iraq is only now becoming clear. Last week’s estimate by investigators, using credible methodology, that more than 100,000 Iraqi civilians – most of them women and children – have died since the US-led invasion is a profound moral indictment of our countries. The US and British governments quickly moved to cast doubt on the Lancet medical journal findings, citing other studies. These mainly media-based reports put the number of Iraqi civilian deaths at about 15,000 – although the basis for such an endorsement is unclear, since neither the US nor the UK admits to collecting data on Iraqi civilian casualties.
    Civilian deaths have always been a tragic reality of modern war. But the conflict in Iraq was supposed to be different – US and British forces were dispatched to liberate the Iraqi people, not impose their own tyranny of violence.
    Reading accounts of the US-led invasion, one is struck by the constant, almost casual, reference to civilian deaths. Soldiers and marines speak of destroying hundreds, if not thousands, of vehicles that turned out to be crammed with civilians. US marines acknowledged in the aftermath of the early, bloody battle for Nassiriya that their artillery and air power had pounded civilian areas in a blind effort to suppress insurgents thought to be holed up in the city. The infamous “shock and awe” bombing of Baghdad produced hundreds of deaths, as did the 3rd Infantry Division’s “Thunder Run”, an armored thrust in Baghdad that slaughtered everyone in its path.
    It is true that, with only a few exceptions, civilians who died as a result of ground combat were not deliberately targeted, but were caught up in the machinery of modern warfare. But when the same claim is made about civilians killed in aerial attacks (the Lancet study estimates that most of civilian deaths were the result of air attacks), the comparison quickly falls apart. Helicopter engagements apart, most aerial bombardment is deliberate and pre-planned. US and British military officials like to brag about the accuracy of the “precision” munitions used in these strikes, claiming this makes the kind of modern warfare practiced by the coalition in Iraq the most humanitarian in history.
    But there is nothing humanitarian about explosives once they detonate near civilians, or about a bomb guided to the wrong target. Dozens of civilians were killed during the vain effort to eliminate Saddam Hussein with “pinpoint” air strikes, and hundreds have perished in the campaign to eliminate alleged terrorist targets in Falluja. A “smart bomb” is only as good as the data used to direct it. And the abysmal quality of the intelligence used has made the smartest of bombs just as dumb and indiscriminate as those, for example, dropped during the second world war.
    The fact that most bombing missions in Iraq today are pre-planned, with targets allegedly carefully vetted, further indicts those who wage this war in the name of freedom. If these targets are so precise, then those selecting them cannot escape the fact that they are deliberately targeting innocent civilians at the same time as they seek to destroy their intended foe. Some would dismiss these civilians as “collateral damage”. But we must keep in mind that the British and US governments made a deliberate decision to enter into a conflict of their choosing, not one that was thrust upon them. We invaded Iraq to free Iraqis from a dictator who, by some accounts, oversaw the killing of about 300,000 of his subjects – although no one has been able to verify more than a small fraction of the figure. If it is correct, it took Saddam decades to reach such a horrific statistic. The US and UK have, it seems, reached a third of that total in just 18 months.
    Meanwhile, the latest scandal over missing nuclear-related high explosives in Iraq (traced and controlled under the UN inspections regime) only underscores the utter deceitfulness of the Bush-Blair argument for the war. Having claimed the uncertainty surrounding Iraq’s WMD capability constituted a threat that could not go unchallenged in a post-9/11 world, one would have expected the two leaders to insist on a military course of action that brought under immediate coalition control any aspect of potential WMD capability, especially relating to any possible nuclear threat. That the US military did not have a dedicated force to locate and neutralize these explosives underscores the fact that both Bush and Blair knew that there was no threat from Iraq, nuclear or otherwise.
    Of course, the US and Britain have a history of turning a blind eye to Iraqi suffering when it suits their political purposes. During the 1990s, hundreds of thousands are estimated by the UN to have died as a result of sanctions. Throughout that time, the US and the UK maintained the fiction that this was the fault of Saddam Hussein, who refused to give up his WMD. We now know that Saddam had disarmed and those deaths were the responsibility of the US and Britain, which refused to lift sanctions.
    There are many culpable individuals and organizations history will hold to account for the war – from deceitful politicians and journalists to acquiescent military professionals and silent citizens of the world’s democracies. As the evidence has piled up confirming what I and others had reported – that Iraq was already disarmed by the late 1990s – my personal vote for one of the most culpable individuals would go to Hans Blix, who headed the UN weapons inspection team in the run-up to war. He had the power if not to prevent, at least to forestall a war with Iraq. Blix knew that Iraq was disarmed, but in his mealy-mouthed testimony to the UN security council helped provide fodder for war. His failure to stand up to the lies used by Bush and Blair to sell the Iraq war must brand him a moral and intellectual coward.
    But we all are moral cowards when it comes to Iraq. Our collective inability to summon the requisite shame and rage when confronted by an estimate of 100,000 dead Iraqi civilians in the prosecution of an illegal and unjust war not only condemns us, but adds credibility to those who oppose us. The fact that a criminal such as Osama bin Laden can broadcast a videotape on the eve of the US presidential election in which his message is viewed by many around the world as a sober argument in support of his cause is the harshest indictment of the failure of the US and Britain to implement sound policy in the aftermath of 9/11. The death of 3,000 civilians on that horrible day represented a tragedy of huge proportions. Our continued indifference to a war that has slaughtered so many Iraqi civilians, and will continue to kill more, is in many ways an even greater tragedy: not only in terms of scale, but also because these deaths were inflicted by our own hand in the course of an action that has no defense.
 
    Scott Ritter was a senior UN weapons inspector in Iraq between 1991 and 1998 and is the author of “Frontier Justice: Weapons of Mass Destruction and the Bushwhacking of America”.

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 3 2004 20:04 utc | 68

What is lost? Nothing much that wasn’t lost before. The previous election was rigged, but not efficiently enough, and the process to decide the outcome, ensure domination, was clumsy.
Nobody protested.
This time round, a lot smoother. National unity and family values will prevail!
Rigged. Rigged.
Mr Skull paid Mr Bones (say) to play the part.
Nobody will protest.
Saddam (e.g.) loved to have 98% of the vote.
The US one-party system will continue to prefer 48-52, Winner Takes All!
Mobilising others to attempt to win a (fake) election has the added bonus of keeping people busy. Further, all that effort only goes to show – on the TV screen – that the fight is tough but fair, that people try, and that, duh, Awh Shucks, that’s the way the cookie crumbles – Someone loses and Someone wins.
That’s life.
Amerika.
Hamid Karzai was announced as Pres. of Afgh. today.

Posted by: Blackie | Nov 3 2004 20:15 utc | 69

What’s next?
What will Bush do?
No 1. Privatise (steal) Social Security.
Poof !

Posted by: Blackie | Nov 3 2004 20:18 utc | 70

neither blackie i, jérôme or b are there but it is evident that we feel the wound as if it was our own because i believe ultimately that we had a ‘certain idea of america’ that was capable of pulling back from the edge, of reflecting seriouslly of the menace, they have placed, they have placed not aq or the mornon bin laden but the american people through their fuhrer – they have placed all of us in a world that is dangerous beyond imagination
& i know that these fools, these neocons – when you hear them talking – they are thinkers of the third fourth or fifth rank – that they do not posess the intelligence nor the foreboding of what they have unleashed. of that i am certain. can you rememeber that photograph of wolfowitz after the bombing during his holiday in baghdad – you could see on his face – that he didn’t know nor did he understand & they don’t perle & his friends
they have placed their short term personal intersts above that of the nation & the nation has acceeded to that in the most shameful election that will resound decades from now
& it is clear that the chinese are laughing their heads off – they are the real victors – they will have governments selling their mother – america will soon be in hock & the chinese power will grow & it is already strong & it posesses what the americans do not – restraint & patience
the years we have ahead of us have to be fought for day by day – the reaching out to establish community is of an importance that perhaps as a people & as community we have never known – because if we are silent in front of this barbarity – we will merit – the indignity that will come our way when the bill has to be paid
still steel

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 3 2004 20:35 utc | 71

@rgiap I am with you on the China issue. I said somewhere to someone this AM that the American voters have just handed the 21st century to the Europeans and the Chinese. I suspect this election may be the point where future scholars of history — may there be some! — mark the knee function in American decline. The Chinese have some very justified, very deep old grudges against the Yanks and they know how to wait… I think turning the bankrupted US into an agricultural productivity zone to feed the Chinese mainland might be a possibility.

Posted by: DeAnander | Nov 3 2004 20:57 utc | 72

I dunno. I was never convinced Kerry was going to get us out of Iraq or not incur gigantic deficits and probably a draft; I’m still wondering what the diff will be between him and Bush on these particular issues. Since when did Hillary or Schumer or Daschle or any of them in the Dem leadership (including Kerry) oppose these policies? Do they do anything but cave to Sharon, speaking of the mideast? Seriously, what the heck is the excitement about in terms of foreign policy? To quote Bernhard: “What’s lost?” when it comes to the Mideast? I have refrained from posting this during the election because of all the anxiety the subject caused but now that it’s over I should hope it can at last be discussed. I don’t think we’re looking at reality if we keep supposing somehow that Kerry had ever proposed doing anything differently, besides bringing in a huge coalition somehow to do the job… (would that be cheaper? would it have worked? would our allies participate if given the right incentives — i.e. a share of the oil or something? why would that be desireable or less of a mideast disaster?)

Posted by: x | Nov 3 2004 21:21 utc | 73

@x agree that little may be lost in terms of what happens next overseas. what is lost to me is any sense that the American public is wising up and ready for a change. if Kerry had had a landslide, even if he had later betrayed the voters as he surely would — it would’ve meant at least that the tide of public opinion and Zeitgeist was turning away from Manifest Destiny and racial/religious fantasies of Selectedness and Dominion (not to mention lootery and thievery). instead we got a pretty clear indication that at least half the electorate is quite happy about war, corruption, racism, and environmental disaster. so what’s lost, for me, is the halfbaked hope I had that people were starting to see through the mafia ih the White House, get angry, and demand change. looks like it will take more body bags, more lost jobs, more body blows to America’s self-respect before there is any real demand for change.

Posted by: DeAnander | Nov 3 2004 21:38 utc | 74

Just a thought.
Nothing has changed in the last 48 hours. There is still a complete fuck-up ruling the USA……..
Keep attacking.

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Nov 3 2004 21:55 utc | 75

How does everyone find the strength to write so much…..
FedEx came to the door. I was hoping someone had sent me a parachute ‘cuz it’s gonna be a loooong way down. But alas it was just the Central Committee sending me a pretty new swastika armband.
@RGIAP….would you do a meditation on how this election on both sides was driven by the Fears the Nazis unleashed upon the world. On one side there’s the Brains Behind the NeoCons – Wolfie who was raised on stories of family members wiped out by the Camps. Now he’s in League w/the Likkudniks…..driven Mad by Fear & Hate. On the Other Side is George Soros, new godfather of the molting mess of FDR’s legacy, a Hungarian Jew disposessed by the Nazi takeover. Left wandering bereft as a young boy. To grow up to be driven to Plunder any & every nation to make enough money so that he can say Never Again will I wander w/ nothing…..
Let’s see – it’s been 60-70 years since then. So, if the planet still exists in another 60-70 yrs., I guess we can expect that the Fear & Rage they’re unleashing upon the Arab World will return to wreck our cities. Or, since history has accelerated maybe it’ll begin next year.

Posted by: jj | Nov 3 2004 22:21 utc | 76

jj
Will your grandchildren drive
SUVs?
Sorry I cannot post the words and poetry and the quality of the truth of DeAnander, x, Giap and the rest of the great posters here.
PS: Sorry if I missed the other great posters.

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Nov 3 2004 22:31 utc | 77

x
i am in complete agreement with deanander – even though kerry would have been obliged to commit a treason against the people who voted for him – that a vote for him especially & landslide that jérôme imagined would have meant that the people in america had at least the capacity to reflect – to step back, to see reason to adress the issues in a way that at least strived for a common decency
what we have instead is pornography
this is not politics. it is not business as usual. it is not situation normal. we are entering or perhaps have already entered a moment as dark as 1936 with the spanish civil war, with the concretisation of the legalistic aspects of fascism in italy & germany, with the class betrayal of england of its people. we have entered a moment that i frighteningly feel can not be pulled back
i imagine i had illusions – perhaps i am an imperfect marxist – i imagine even capital wants a future – a real future – but it seems so much like apartheid south africa of the thieves, the goons & the criminals wanting to plunder the people to the last cent, to commit horrendous crimes against humanity, to demean all that is good in man as articulated by mandela or tutu or joe slovo or chris hani – the people who ruled until the last days were scum, were filth – should have been liquidated in a form at least of some kind of justice for the wrongs they had committed. i thought there would be a bloodbath – i thought the anc would not be able to control the rage of the people. & with the grandeur of mandela – they were able to create a moment where these criminals were pardoned. i imagine that that was aprropriate but i thought that justice, people’s justice ought to be meted out as gratuitously as the ‘justice’ of the oppressor had been gratuitous
kerry winning would have suggested that history would not have to be couched in apocalyptic terms. but these are the only terms, now. because what you have reaped so you will sow. it is as clear as day that the violence america is perpetrating, continuing to perpetrate around the globe will return against it & its citizens
but those citizens have knowingly chosen that path – so there will be bodybags in their thousands – of your youn & of your poor. they will come back from these imperial wars in boxes. & the price as always disproportionately will be paid by the poor. your criminal economic elite will bleed your economy dry – there will not be the means for even the most basic social programmes that are clearly already in a state of negligence & decay. your jobs will dissapear to anywhere where it is cheaper – you will pay in blood and you will pay in dollars
the friends of bush america are what today – these sad little princes in britain & australia who in any ordinary time would be seen for the nullities they are – blair & howard have not listened to the people they have abused them. & the people have allowed themselves to be abused
to quote slothrop quoting wallace stevens -‘ the world is ugly and the people are sad’ or to paraphrase phillip larkin – ‘governments – they fuck you up’
& what is incredible but not so incredible with their common theology of rupert murdoch is that people have acted against their proper interests in the short term but more importantly in the long term – & it will be unrepairable – that much is clear – in ten years china will not want you & what you have will not be worth stealing & so will become an army weapons range
the american people have voted for their proper destitution. your courts will be conducted by criminals & citizens will commence to appear more & more in the docks – directly for their meagre forms of resistance & for the crimes that are part & parcel of being poor in a country that does not give a fuck. in the supreme court there will be one two three many scalias – any resemblance between them & a real justice will have dissapeared completely. that is already so – the prognosis can only be worse, much worse
& the next time they will try to sell you obama or hilary as the new thing as the great hope but it is clear today that they will betray you – & in any case i think the political situation will have deteriorated so much that it will not matter. i do not think i am being melodramatic – what has happened in just these four years – could not have happened in the last thirty & i feel the following four will lead us into chaos
not only us, but it is also evident that the strains within egypt & pakistan will not hold, in indonesia – you will see what was a ‘soft’ islam turning very hard indeed & your county will not be able to control it so it will enter into comprimising agreements with the real enemies of democracy
the bush cheney junta in unison with murodch have shown through proof after proof – their complete contempt for the people & for the institution of democracy
resistance is needed to be organised at every level. but i imagine the defeat of kerry will drive your best to comprimise, insanity & suicide. the role of europeans is to nourish that resistance & to force their political leadership from accords with bush – in france the massacre that wwill call the middle east will have a firect affect on the five million french who are of north african origin & it will become an absolutely fragile construct – this world
i wish i had something to give you & not have to cry fire – i wish there was something that could be said to soften what is clearly the worst experience for the people of america who post here – but to quote leonard cohen “is this what you wanted, to live in the house, that is haunted, by the ghost, of you & me”. i am listenign to putin & to berlusconi & to blair who are like pigs at a trough bleating their fealty to the empire & its defective dirigeant
i wish i could give you more than my tears – but this day, of all days – i feel so little of my strength
still steel

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 3 2004 22:44 utc | 78

Published on Wednesday, November 3, 2004 by the Sydney Morning Herald (Australia)
What We Call Peace is Little Better Than Capitulation To a Corporate Coup
by Arundhati Roy
 
This is an edited extract from the 2004 Sydney Peace Prize lecture delivered by Arundhati Roy at the Seymour Center last night.
Sometimes there’s truth in old cliches. There can be no real peace without justice. And without resistance there will be no justice. Today, it is not merely justice itself, but the idea of justice that is under attack.
The assault on vulnerable, fragile sections of society is so complete, so cruel and so clever that its sheer audacity has eroded our definition of justice. It has forced us to lower our sights, and curtail our expectations. Even among the well-intentioned, the magnificent concept of justice is gradually being substituted with the reduced, far more fragile discourse of “human rights”.
This is an alarming shift. The difference is that notions of equality, of parity, have been pried loose and eased out of the equation. It’s a process of attrition. Almost unconsciously, we begin to think of justice for the rich and human rights for the poor. Justice for the corporate world, human rights for its victims. Justice for Americans, human rights for Afghans and Iraqis. Justice for the Indian upper castes, human rights for Dalits and Adivasis (if that.) Justice for white Australians, human rights for Aborigines and immigrants (most times, not even that.)
It is becoming more than clear that violating human rights is an inherent and necessary part of the process of implementing a coercive and unjust political and economic structure on the world. Increasingly, human rights violations are being portrayed as the unfortunate, almost accidental, fallout of an otherwise acceptable political and economic system. As though they are a small problem that can be mopped up with a little extra attention from some non-government organisation.
This is why in areas of heightened conflict – in Kashmir and in Iraq for example – human rights professionals are regarded with a degree of suspicion. Many resistance movements in poor countries which are fighting huge injustice and questioning the underlying principles of what constitutes “liberation” and “development” view human rights non-government organisations as modern-day missionaries who have come to take the ugly edge off imperialism – to defuse political anger and to maintain the status quo.
It has been only a few weeks since Australia re-elected John Howard, who, among other things, led the nation to participate in the illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq.
That invasion will surely go down in history as one of the most cowardly wars ever. It was a war in which a band of rich nations, armed with enough nuclear weapons to destroy the world several times over, rounded on a poor nation, falsely accused it of having nuclear weapons, used the United Nations to force it to disarm, then invaded it, occupied it and are now in the process of selling it.
I speak of Iraq, not because everybody is talking about it, but because it is a sign of things to come. Iraq marks the beginning of a new cycle. It offers us an opportunity to watch the corporate-military cabal that has come to be known as “empire” at work. In the new Iraq, the gloves are off.
As the battle to control the world’s resources intensifies, economic colonialism through formal military aggression is staging a comeback. Iraq is the logical culmination of the process of corporate globalisation in which neo-colonialism and neo-liberalism have fused. If we can find it in ourselves to peep behind the curtain of blood, we would glimpse the pitiless transactions taking place backstage.
Invaded and occupied Iraq has been made to pay out $US200 million ($270 million) in “reparations” for lost profits to corporations such as Halliburton, Shell, Mobil, Nestle, Pepsi, Kentucky Fried Chicken and Toys R Us. That’s apart from its $US125 billion sovereign debt forcing it to turn to the IMF, waiting in the wings like the angel of death, with its structural adjustment program. (Though in Iraq there don’t seem to be many structures left to adjust.)
So what does peace mean in this savage, corporatised, militarised world? What does peace mean to people in occupied Iraq, Palestine, Kashmir, Tibet and Chechnya? Or to the Aboriginal people of Australia? Or the Kurds in Turkey? Or the Dalits and Adivasis of India? What does peace mean to non-Muslims in Islamic countries, or to women in Iran, Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan? What does it mean to the millions who are being uprooted from their lands by dams and development projects? What does peace mean to the poor who are being actively robbed of their resources? For them, peace is war.
We know very well who benefits from war in the age of empire. But we must also ask ourselves honestly who benefits from peace in the age of empire? War mongering is criminal. But talking of peace without talking of justice could easily become advocacy for a kind of capitulation. And talking of justice without unmasking the institutions and the systems that perpetrate injustice is beyond hypocritical.
It’s easy to blame the poor for being poor. It’s easy to believe that the world is being caught up in an escalating spiral of terrorism and war. That’s what allows George Bush to say, “You’re either with us or with the terrorists.” But that’s a spurious choice. Terrorism is only the privatisation of war. Terrorists are the free marketeers of war. They believe that the legitimate use of violence is not the sole prerogative of the state.
It is mendacious to make moral distinction between the unspeakable brutality of terrorism and the indiscriminate carnage of war and occupation. Both kinds of violence are unacceptable. We cannot support one and condemn the other.

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 3 2004 23:10 utc | 79

DeAnander, Cloned & rememberinggiap:
Thank you for answering and/or musing upon my questions. I am going to reread and ponder some more. It is much appreciated. I suppose in the end what we are talking about is after all what perceptions people had about what they were voting for…
Strange I had a quick chat with one of the doormen in the building I live in. He voted for Bush and was telling me… “if only he can get a handle on what’s going on in Iraq, then it would be smooth sailing. Like when Nixon took over the war from Johnson…” (which he was against at the time)… “And we could use those billions of dollars on better things to help people here instead of spending it on that war…” And I’m thinking, “Who on earth does he think got us into this mess???” I didn’t have time to talk further as I was late to an appointment, but it’s just an example of what kind of thinking has been going on here.
Gee, if I could thank Bush for anything it would be at least in some way I found this place, Billmon and all of you people because of him! Thank you all.

Posted by: x | Nov 3 2004 23:19 utc | 80

@ Cloned Poster -what the hell are you talking about? I don’t know anyone who drives SUV’s. Are you implying there is something reactionary about being furious that this oligarchy is stealing everything from us?
@RGiap: “the american people have voted for their proper destitution” No they did not. Exit polling showed “Kerry” carried every swing state except one. What happened to those votes? That is the ??? Demonstrations were being scheduled for cities around the country today. Cancelled. Did Cheney let it be known that they’d provoke riots & declare martial law, so that Kerry Would never assume office if he fought. What the Fuck Happened??? This may sound crazy, but I just read that Cheney warned Sen. Wellstone there would be “severe ramifications” if he voted against the War in Iraq motion. He did. Shortly thereafter, his plane crashed for no known reason. I think it’s a mistake to refuse to deal w/what happened in this last “election” as everyone seems ready to do. Endless garbage around the web about next time, mistakes made, what’s wrong w/exit polling……..
I think I recently read of oil deals bet. China & Iran. Will there be alliances against xUSA of say China & MaleMuslim World? Will Russia join Europe?

Posted by: jj | Nov 3 2004 23:32 utc | 81

@jj
when cloned wrote:

Will your grandchildren drive
SUVs?

I figured that was stab at poetry…
@cloned
Just a thought.
Nothing has changed in the last 48 hours. There is still a complete fuck-up ruling the USA……..
Keep attacking.

I have been depressed all day, but now I am back to normal. Partly thanks to this. (And a 2 hour conversation with a friend who explained that knowledge isn´t power, my knowledge of the coming electiontheft in Ohio and Florida doesn´t make me responsible even if my subconscious thinks so and so on.)
Keep fighting.
One more thing, someone on this thread or another asked about escape possibilities so I will add my limited knowledge. Sweden looks to be coming out of a recession and the job market is picking up (from a bad point, but anyway). Plenty job opportunities in medicine and healthcare, if you have a degree. Almost everyone speak english and swedish is not so hard to learn (I have been told). I think immigration laws are pretty lax against the US and Canada, but this is nothing I know for sure.

Posted by: A swedish kind of death | Nov 4 2004 0:46 utc | 82

@swedish: age restrictions? housing costs? any other desirable professions? taxes on money brought into the country? (it never hurts to know more about our options).

Posted by: DeAnander | Nov 4 2004 0:50 utc | 83

age restrictions?
Not that I know of. But I really don´t know what the immigration laws are when it comes to industrialized countries outside europe.
housing costs?
Depends largely on situation. To buy a 3 room apartment in a small city costs approx 40 000 dollars (a friend of mine just did).
Any other desirable professions?
Strong electronics and computer industry, but it has been really dead on the job market there, the last two years.
There has been a lack of theachers the last few years.
Strong wood and paper industry, if you have the right education.
The diverse service industry is the biggest sector, but I´m not sure where jobs are easy to find and where they aren´t.
Taxes on money brought into the country?
Not to my knowledge. High taxes generally, but I bet you knew that. 🙂
And if someone acctually contemplates moving to sweden, I will do what I can. Just make a note here at the moon.

Posted by: A swedish kind of death | Nov 4 2004 1:09 utc | 84

swedish kind of death
i’ve lived in sweden & can recommend it for exile but i too have been depressed today – an aguish in part for our friends here – i am not a good filter – i absorb but i have been so full of rage today posting here & le speakeasy as a mean of trying to extinguish my flames so i apologise to friends here if i’m a little overbearing but i feel full of dread for the times to come but so much want to live it
what pat may not comprehend was that communist taught me how to love – they taught me of the other in a very basic way – their love & humour & their generosity have made me what i am today – these people were giants whose kind will never come again & they taught me – to never abide cruelty or meanness
those people whose concern was always for others than themselves made something better of me than i might have been – without them i would have ended a little bourgeois nihilist teaching literature & fucking my students in ever decreasing circles & becoming bitter
i am angry, very angry but i have never felt bitter – for me the wonder of life even under tyranny is extraordianry & it is precisely for that reason that tyranny must be fought – from the heart
i wanted a sign – of another america – a little of what i have learnt here – but that dream was crushed today
forgive me for my darkness, for this fury that has no end
still steel

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 4 2004 1:12 utc | 85

Beam me up, skd.

Posted by: beq | Nov 4 2004 1:13 utc | 86

Words by Walter Mehring/Music by Kurt Weill, 1944
Ich will’s dir gestehn, es war eine Nacht,
da hab ich mich willig dir hingegeben,
du hast mich gehabt mich von Sinnen gebracht,
ich glaubte, ich könnte nicht ohne dich leben.
Du hast mir das Blaue vom Himmel versprochen
und ich habe dich wie ‘nen Vater gepflegt.
Du hast mich gemartert, hast mich zerbrochen.
Ich hätt dir die Erde zu Füssen gelegt.
Sieh mich doch an! Sieh mich doch an!
Wann kommt der Tag an dem ich dir sage:
es ist vorbei!
Wann kommt der Tag, ach, der Tag nach dem ich bange?
Wie lange noch? Wie lange noch? Wie lange?
Ich hab dir geglaubt, ich war wie im Wahn,
won all deinen Reden, von deinen Schwüren.
Was immer du wolltest, das hab ich getan.
Wohin du auch wolltest, da liess ich mich führen.
Du hast mir das Blaue vom Himmel versprochen
und ich! ach ich hab’ nicht zu weinen gewagt.
Doch du hast dein Wort, deine Schwüre gebrochen.
Ich habe gesschwiegen und hab mich geplagt.
Sieh mich doch an! Sieh mich doch an!
Wann kommt der Tag an dem ich dir sage:
es ist vorbei!
Wann kommt der Tag, ach, der Tag nach dem ich bange?
Wie lange noch? Wie lange noch? Wie lange?

Posted by: catlady | Nov 4 2004 1:14 utc | 87

This is how bad it is: many persons in my family are thrilled w/ the results of this election.
I don’t really like my family any more.
I resent that, to borrow from stuart hall, bush snuck into my home under cover of night, and crapped on my dinner table. And now, my family loves the taste of his shit.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 4 2004 1:36 utc | 88

@slothrop sympathy. I am sure my dad voted for the Bushistas. and I am sure it is because he imagines they will save him money on taxes and be tough on Kaffirs. it is hard to see people you love believing nasty things or doing selfish things. my dad is so elderly now that I don’t expect any new information to make a dent… he is of the generation and class where having a Jew for a friend was considered dangerously liberal. I’ve always considered it a bit of an achievement for him not to have disowned me 🙂 anyway I’m sorry that bits of your family are rejoicing on this day of mourning. no matter what bad thing happens, someone somewhere is cheering…

Posted by: DeAnander | Nov 4 2004 1:44 utc | 89

DeAnander: I also fear Alabama is wrong here, since history shows that one of the few ways of waking-up idiots and fools that are into faith-based reality is to carpet-bomb their entire country.
Giap: Any fucking European politician calling now to renew ties with the US should be labeled a traitor and hung. Not that it would happen, alas.
You were also an idealist, even if marxist. Real capitalists don’t care about the future because they’ll be dead. Do you think that they would do a tenth of their crimes if they ever gave a fuck about their own kids? Look at the Bush family. They don’t care as long as it’s not them and their bank accounts.
Ritter is spot on, of course. And what this means to the Muslims is basically that the Americans just learned that they had killed 100’000 Iraqis and decided it was good and things should go ahead with even more violence and murderous frenzy. When people say these results are bad because they mean people accept Bush’s policies, it’s not just about some side-issue, it’s also about the fact that this war criminal just killed 100.000 innocent civilians, and this is what the American people seem to like. Well, these Americans have no idea how glad the Arabs will be if Al-Qaeda hits gold again.
The bottom-line is quite simple, though: democracy has ultimately failed in the US. Perhaps are the Americans just blood-thirsty people who only understand violence, and therefore what they really need is a strongman as leader, not an elected parliament and an elected president? Of course, I was of the opinion that all this was definitely over since the Americans didn’t take arms to oust Bush, by force if needed, when he was picked by the Supreme Court to be the new monarch.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Nov 4 2004 1:49 utc | 90

Got an emailadress if you got questions about sweden that I don´t like to take over the net.

Posted by: A swedish kind of death | Nov 4 2004 2:04 utc | 91

“that you don´t like” not “I”, it is late in Sweden and I should get to sleep now.

Posted by: A swedish kind of death | Nov 4 2004 2:06 utc | 92

Quote:
“putin – thei first in line”
***
R’giap…do not underestimate Putin… he is a big player and he is KGB mafia…He is not Bush’s friend…but he’ll play one when necessary…He knows what Bushco’s plans are and how to play this game with them and with Europeans who need him badly…He knows the rules… Remember “Godfather” and remember the rules of mafia…They both know that “friendly” hand on their shoulder is the one that will try to kill them when the time is right…For now they serve interests of one another but it will not last…

Posted by: vbo | Nov 4 2004 2:22 utc | 93

Quote:
The US one-party system
***
So true …and most Americans do not even get it…
No any movements let alone ideas of making alternative parties to bit this no win situation and actual tirany…

Posted by: vbo | Nov 4 2004 2:33 utc | 94

There’s a thread over at slashdot for post-election wrangling and it’s running hot and heavy with 2500 or so posts. skimming the less abusive ones, one can take the temperature of the hacker community and it is just as divided as the rest of the country. typical postings include despairing “gotta leave this country” rants, neener-neener-our-guy-won taunts, and somewhat more disturbing, more rationally phrased explanations that “Democrats will have a chance when they convince voters that their party is not run by leftwing nutjobs” or “Maybe the reason Republicans are winning is because the US is the richest most powerful country on earth and Republicans made it that way,” etc. It’s an interesting spectrum of opinion, but what jumps out at me is the edgy defensive posture of the rightwing posters who are forever accusing their critics of “extremism”, “hate” and so on — as if the Coulter/Savage/Limbaugh style of hatemongering pioneered by the rightwing media machine never happened, or was totally middle of the road and merely light satire.
From this contentious thread you come away feeling that there really are two realities (at least) in America, and the one that is winning still thinks it is on the defensive and “counterbalancing” some kind of raving Red Guard. It’s eerie. Worth a visit for the sociologically inclined.

Posted by: DeAnander | Nov 4 2004 2:43 utc | 95

Slowly I am finding words again. Despite this outcome having been somewhat expected, though not hoped for – it still is shocking and frustrating. The major change, and I am amazed at the speed of the change, is that now Bush and Americans are being put in the same pot. No more differentiating.
I feel sorry for those Amerians I met here on this site, for my American friends and all those who have been working so hard over the last year to vote Bush out. I hope they will not fall into resignation.
At the beginning when I started posting at Billmon, I asked what your positiv vision for the US is. What kind of US would you like to live in? I think it is very important that a new vision is now being created. Because with out a goal you can not start moving forward. People like Gandhi and Mandela had visions. The founding Fathers of the US had visions. I do not mean to ignore reality, but just saying what you do not want will be of no use. This is the time to start creating new structures and fundaments, but for that you need a blueprint.
This blueprint should include short term goals, but what is more important longterm goals. I think that is one of the weaknesses of current society and businesses, everything is so short-term, not thinking over the longterm concequences. Alread on some sites the talk is about who should run in the next election. That is covering over the symptoms of the problem and the removing the cause. As frustrating as the current situation is, it is also a chance to get started with something new and better. But for that the homework has to be done first. And that is to figure out what would the US you want to live in look like? Not, what do you not want in a country you live in. And then the next step would be to ask, how can that be achieved? It will probably be a long and slow process,maybe one small step after small step, but the earlier you get started the earlier you will get results.
I know I might sound like a hopeless and maybe ignorant idealist, but I do believe that there is a end to the tunnel. Even though the tunnel might be longer than expected. So please don’t give up.
There are already some ideas floating around in these threads, maybe it would be worth a thread of its own, to discuss these ideas and what possible actions can be taken.

Posted by: Fran | Nov 4 2004 5:53 utc | 96

That is covering over the symptoms of the problem and the removing the cause
It should read: instead of removing the cause.

Posted by: Fran | Nov 4 2004 5:56 utc | 97

Good comment by Digby:
TV With The Sound Turned Off

Posted by: Fran | Nov 4 2004 7:30 utc | 98

Emigrate? First read this and this.

“Ready to say screw this country and buy a one-way ticket north? Here are some reasons to stay in the belly of the beast.”

Best reason:

1. The Rest of the World. After the February 2003 antiwar protests, the New York Times described the global peace movement as the world’s second superpower. Their actions didn’t prevent the war, but protestors in nine countries have succeeded in pressuring their governments to pull their troops from Iraq and/or withdraw from the so-called coalition of the willing. Antiwar Americans owe it to the majority of the people on this planet who agree with them to stay and do what they can to end the suffering in Iraq and prevent future pre-emptive wars.

Posted by: beq | Nov 4 2004 12:01 utc | 99

Sorry to get your hopes up, beq, DeAnander and anyone else who thought about migrating to Sweden. I knew the rules had been harshened but they worse than I thought. And I figured there would be different rules moving from the USA, than say Afghanistan.
Anyway, what you need is a job offer in a sector were there is a lack of skilled personel. That is, it is not enough to have a job offer if there is someone in Sweden who could take that job. If you get that everything else should turn out ok.
Me being a lowly student/worker unfortunately means I can´t hire you all. Sorry.
But if there is any EU country you can work in there should be free mobility within the EU. Any old polish passports?

Posted by: A swedish kind of death | Nov 4 2004 12:04 utc | 100