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November 28, 2004
They Just Don´t Get It

The Report of the Defense Science Board Task Force on Strategic Communication has some remarkable insights:

– Muslims do not "hate our freedom," but rather, they hate our policies. The overwhelming majority voice their objections to what they see as one-sided support in favor of Israel and against Palestinian rights, and the longstanding, even increasing support for what Muslims collectively see as tyrannies, most notably Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Pakistan, and the Gulf states.

– Thus when American public diplomacy talks about bringing democracy to Islamic societies, this is seen as no more than self-serving hypocrisy. Moreover, saying that "freedom is the future of the Middle East" is seen as patronizing, suggesting that Arabs are like the enslaved peoples of the old Communist World – but Muslims do not feel this way: they feel oppressed, but not enslaved

– Furthermore, in the eyes of Muslims, American occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq has not led to democracy there, but only more chaos and suffering. U.S. actions appear in contrast to be motivated by ulterior motives, and deliberately controlled in order to best serve American national interests at the expense of truly Muslim selfdetermination.

…
– Muslims see Americans as strangely narcissistic – namely, that the war is all about us. As the Muslims see it, everything about the war is – for Americans – really no more than an extension of American domestic politics and its great game. This perception is of course necessarily heightened by election-year atmospherics, but nonetheless sustains their impression that when Americans talk to Muslims they are really just talking to themselves.

Thus the critical problem in American public diplomacy directed toward the Muslim World is not one of "dissemination of information," or even one of crafting and delivering the "right" message. Rather, it is a fundamental problem of credibility. Simply, there is none …

After these insights one would expect some self-inspection or a simple look into the mirror to find out if the Muslim view might be the real one.

But the authors seem not to be able to take this step. Strangely narcissistic they assume that the Muslim view cannot be the real one – it is not even discussible. They just don´t get it, because the "communication" does not work.

The report proposes better strategic communication. A new high level agency, a bigger budget, a better distribution of the message by adapting private sector and political campaign best practice.
The report does not discuss the message, it does not discuss the deeds, only how to communicate them.

The report is a complete failure. They just don´t get it.

Posted by b on November 28, 2004 at 17:18 UTC | Permalink
Comments

“delivering the “right” message”
Up to the plate steps MEMRI and the rest of the stink tanks.

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Nov 28 2004 17:58 utc | 1

I suggest that the report is no failure at all. Rather, it provides exactly what the powers-to-be financing the think-tanks and the media outlets want to see and hear. The report is one of the milder controlled voices in an echo chamber that is mortally afraid of all other voices. On the whole, US public discourse seems to be little more than that at the moment.
Reminds me of the completely hermetic system of the Aztecs that simply could not cope with the arrival of the Spaniards. Todorov saw a “hypertrophic death urge” at work, if I remember correctly.

Posted by: teuton | Nov 28 2004 18:00 utc | 2

b
no, they don’t get it. imperialism, never known for its genius or for its imagination has even less common sense
this imperial powere has begun a war it cannot win & it is extremely likely it is the crucible on which its entire project will crumble
like mad king leopold of the congo they go about theior business with such avarice & venality they cannot see what is obvious to even the most partisan of witnesses
in afghanistan, far from defeating ‘terrorism’ – they have guven it a leg up – they have construted the possibility for an armed confilct that will see no end. afghanistan has been returned to the lawless state where opium is the most stable & profitable of crops. from opium will come the revenues on both sides of the fence. the coloniser will use the trade as will its erstwhile enemies who will indulge in this business to the happy mutal infantilism of their populations
afghanistan, never in such good shape anyway had become decidedly worse – with control existing only in kabul & only there by the presence of absolute force. this of course will not last & once this little war intensifies i think you will see european troops want to get the hell out of there
this imperial project is so possessed by lunacy that they want black to be white, red to be blue. they cannot see what is in front of their eyes. what is in front of the worlds eyes despite the best attempts of foxnewscnnbbc & the rest of their whorelike contemporaries. u s imperialism has turned this world into a slaughterhouse & it is going to get worse. there can be no doubt about that. a weak beast is much more dangerous than one that is strong. & this beast, u s imperialism & all its works have guaranteed that for the next few decades we will live in a kind of hell
certainly, it is not the hell of the iraqui people who have been forced to suffer beyond reason. they have been obliged to be the point where u s imperialism exhibits its venal power for all the world to see. the hundreds of thousands that are already dead will be joined by hundreds of thousands of others. they have turned a nation of the richest & most cultured history into the stone age where even after all this – for all their money, for all their force – they cannot provide even the most basic of services to the people. they have turned over the iraqi state to a group of criminals – halliburton bechtel etc who have no interest to give the people these services. they want what the nazis wanted in the east – a slave people who can provide america with the resources it so venally demands. there can be no question that the iraqui people enter the equation for the occupiers. it is a sad & cruel joke. no these people will suffer endlessly while the wolf blitzers of the world ejaculate their perfect semen over the screens of our future
the american have created from this most civilised people a barbaric entity & they happy for all that – that is sure – as they did in vietnam with their diems, their thieus, their ky’s – they do not care at all for the people & that is the clearest sign they are sending the world
they are not interested in ‘democracy’ – a term they have soiled with their farce & then with their tragedy. it is clear that in the ukraine – the interfascist struggle is being assisted by u s imperialism. truthout & common dreams have may articles which will prove that. they do not care for the people. they never have
they are the terrorists they pretend their enemies to be & the situation is so sordid in iraq – i would not put it past the american to have been involved in the kidnappings & the executions. i am not the only person to fear that. there is a long history of such machinations because the people in the end do not matter. they do not matter at all
the cries of latin america – so well documented by eduardo galeano that have filled our ears for fifty years were never heard. never. until it was too late. until generation after generation of people were slaughtered to the iperatives of american foreign policy. to not listen to these cries makes us criminals. to not listen to these cries makes us stupid
because the cries we are hearing will turn away from that emotion & they will turn to revenge & the world was lucky once to have a nelson mandela who was capable of transforming that fury. there is no such leader today who can turn the fury of a people into something noble.
what is noble, in this instance is for the people to fight back & that necessarily means american deaths – how couid it be otherwise – it took 50,000 american deaths to end the vietnam war. i do not cy when i see the people’s soldiers that are posted here – at least i do not feel sympathy because at the other end of thats scale is the destruction of a people by the most barbaric means known to man.
there are so many iraqui dead, wounded, destroyed & diminished that their is not enough tears in my body nor yours to cry for them & we do not see their bodies their broken & beautiful bodies – we do not see a human vaporised – we do not see them melting – we do not see them transformed in 50 a 100 pieces – we do not see the blodd skin & brains of the walls of destroyed houses & mosques. we do not see their horror. & we are criminal & stupid to be blind to it
& it has a name – it is a crime of war. it is the reduction of all humanity – not just for the americans but for all the world – if justice had a meaning the people who are making iraq a slaughterhouse would be before an international tribunal but that day will not come
but in their criminality, in their blindness & in their stupidity they do not see what we all witness – that the fight against american imperialism will grow into a ferocious force even if it wears nikes & they listen to music on their ipods. they will also use the americans own weapons against them as the vietnamese did
if vietnam touched the soul of america – iraq will tear its heart out breath by breath
& it will have given birth to armies that make the red brigades, the red army faktion look like the schoolchildren they were – we are going to witness a ferocity unimaginable in this 21st century – it will be in its way a return to 1914-18 because it will affect everybody & everybody will become criminal in our ignorance to its reality
b, no they don’t get it & i am sure they will not get it until it is much too late, for them & for us
still steel

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 28 2004 18:28 utc | 3

Teuton: I don’t think it’s a death urge or anything like that. The Aztecs and neighbors were more or less isolated peoples who simply couldn’t imagine that there were horses, guns, white people coming to invade them that had a civilization who was 95% different from their own, and would never played by their rules. The whole America then was totally insular and it’s not that hard to grasp that there’s no way they could’ve understood peoples from Eurasia, and their own values and societies. The various revolts showed that they began to learn, though only a part of them, and too late. But, basically, they couldn’t accept things like Spanish unique religion that should topple all the others, extermination war, and the like, because they never met it and it was completely alien to their culture. If aliens from Betelgeuse come next week, we may not understand their goals or have any clue as to which kind of technology they’ll use.
What is at work here is that the US politics have become so inwards due to a strong isolationist tendency that most US people are quite isolated from the rest of the world and now can only become their own culture and their own way of doing things. Basically, they simply can’t understand that any single person on Earth would desire a life that would be different than that of the average suburbanite US. The ultimate problem of US foreign policies is that they can’t understand that most people abroad ultimately wouldn’t give a damn about the US if it weren’t deciding world politics and weren’t meddling with their own domestic policies, and that at the end of the day, most humans simply don’t want much to do with American way of life.
For that, I refer you to that Full Metal Jacket scene where one marine talks about a dead Vietcong and states that “We are here to help the Vietnamese, because inside every gook there is an American trying to get out.”
Bottom line: Most American people clearly have no fucking clue.
They don’t even get it that if most of the world is now so pissed off against them is because, when nearly everyone was horrified by 9/11, they also hoped that it would be a wake-up call for the Americans, and that they would realise that they’d better get a clue because the whole planet goes to Hell, and the whole Iraqi mess showed that most Americans still got no clue. What is frightening is to consider how low mankind will have to go before most human beings on every side eventually get a clue.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Nov 28 2004 18:37 utc | 4

the fight against american imperialism will grow into a ferocious force…
I’m less certain about this now. Playing off the shia/sunni animus may yet avert a war of national liberation. The u.s. may very well achieve primary objectives of stability in oil-producing south and north and terminal military presence.
See Levine’s article on Juan Cole (scroll down): Guest Editorial: Levine: “Iraq’s Lose-Lose Scenario”

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 28 2004 19:08 utc | 5

slothrop
i do not mean only in iraq – though it would be foolish to determine a situation there that is accelerating at a pace beyond any strategist imagination
the war of national liberation has already commenced & it will grow tonight & it will spread tommorrow
still steel

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 28 2004 19:13 utc | 6

“la torture me mettait hors de moi parce que je pensais que c’était une pratique typiquement nazie. les camps aussi. pourquoi faut-il s’acharner sur le cadavre, lui enlever sa beauté, sa jeunnesse, son teint frais? l’outrage aux cadavres, comme chez les grecs, est une forme d’agressivité culturelle, il ne s’agit pas de tuer l’adversaire mais d’anéantir les valeurs qu’il représente…. il ne s’agissait pas seulement de tuer des gens mais aussi, en leur donnant un aspect de cadavres ambulant, de néantiser ce qu’ils représentent sur le plan humain”
jean-pierre vernant entretiens les inrockuptibles no 467

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 28 2004 19:48 utc | 7

@rememberinggiap @01:28PM
you are right, and many others are right. the problem i see is that all the blogs have degenerated into what can only be characterized as the impotent screeches of wronged transvestites.
the nature of american society, their politics, is the nature of sociopaths. the lack the capacity to understand the other much less to empathize or to concede they have rights and feelings, and not less important they lack the ability to learn socially. not from their own errors and not from words. these two salient characteristics are true for americans at the individual *AND* at the social level.
fact is, no amount of speak, be it thru public fora or by govt level contacts will change the american way, because until now nobody has started to speak to them in the only language they understand: violence. extreme violence.
americans relate to the rest of the world thru exploitation and violence. most of them have no interest in other people if it is not to take something away from them. when americans travel abroad, it is to do ‘business’, to sabotage and subvert other peoples societies, or to do war. i live in a city with people from everywhere in the world, and the only people i dont meet in normal way are americans. to meet them, you have to go to corporations, to their embassy, their schools, their closed and exclusive garden parties. the americans you see on the street keep to themselves, american tourists are mostly ignorant, and i’ve personally met americans who conciously reject to learn the local language. they dont care about us and our customs, so we shouldnt care about them either.
but that is not all.
from iraq we learn that the kill rates are about 1:100 – 1:200, that is, for each american soldier killed there are 100-200 irakis killed. that is not a war. that is a massacre of a mostly defenseless population. from the media we learn that they are planning a war against iran, what will probably happen within the next 6 months. since the US is overextended there is a major probability that they will not only use massive bombing against all iranian cities, but that they will drop nukes on them too, as a ‘psycological measure’ to use their parlance.
given the massacre in irak and the coming major crimes against iran and other places, i propose that everybody reading this start to actively engage in hostilizing americans in their countries: talk with restaurants and hotels in your area to not attend them, talk with businesses to look for alternative international partners if they have business with the US, talk to your account manager at your bank and tell him you are worried the bank owns american bonds and that you will go away if they dont dump them, …
i’ve read that mcdonalds and other US companies are already complaining of up to 20% sales slumps without any organized boycott, so there is probably a big potential there which has not yet been used. commercial boycott should only be the first stage. next they should feel personally unwelcome in all possible countries, if this still doesnt help, pressure against them will need to go up even more. my experience dealing with difficult people is that everybody has an point where the pressure where he/she prefers to understand and comply with what is asked from them.
in short, i am proposing to use the internet to organize setting up incremental pressure against americans until they understand that they have to dispose of their criminal ideologies and their criminal ruling class or go to hell with them. anything else would be to let the chance to do the right thing go unused.

Posted by: name | Nov 28 2004 22:48 utc | 8

Clueless Joe, I agree with much of what you say, but it seems to me that the ‘US conditio humana’ may still be directed towards an underlying death drive. I am not so sure that many US citizens are as clueless as we/they pretend they are. The much worse scenario is familiar to all of us: They know, and they silently condone the ruthless power politics and the killings in the name of liberty and SUVs, emotional TV-moments included.
As to Full Metal Jacket, one of my favourite (and imperfectly remembered) lines: “We killed the finest people we are ever going to meet.”

Posted by: teuton | Nov 29 2004 0:03 utc | 9

name, etc.
Knee-jerk American bashing is lame: “a night in which all the cows are black.”
As if euro-elites are not complicit in the exploitation of labor and resources.
Not for nothing has leftist politics tried to bear witness to systems of domination that ‘in the first instance’ insinuate unequal access to productive resources. To do otherwise is to collapse into some kind of secular fantasy that euro-capitalism is more pure and happy–just another unhelpful purveyance of ideology.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 29 2004 0:42 utc | 10

A unreadable insider description of United States strategic communication procedures [propaganda]. Actually the propaganda is working. It is working on Americans. You haven’t seen any demonstrations about rigged elections in the USA unlike the Ukraine. Americans are all wrapped up in their own culture, religion and prejudices. Especially at the highest levels of the Bush Administration. Just like German WWII propaganda which was foreign to Americans, USA’s current propaganda is alien to Muslims.

Posted by: Jim S | Nov 29 2004 3:37 utc | 11

Jim S – you’d never know it from the media, but the protests are beginning to happen. they are smaller than the ukranian’s but i predict they will grow in size and frequency and occur throughout the country. the first wave happened this weekend in new york and washington (state). others are planned for next weekend in new york, washington, ohio, kansas, san francisco, and i expect that more will be organized in additional states. finally, with jesse jackson joining the recount cause in ohio and communicating directly with kerry and the dems, mainstream press is beginning to happen. granted it’s not ukraine, but it’s a beginning and for those of us who have been following this since november 3rd, this development is monumental. i participated in the demo in new york city this past weekend and have been busy working to make another happen next weekend. two key things came out of my experience: 1) there were people there who do not normally get involved in political protests, but were out there because they were so freaked out by this election, and 2) in planning the second one of our biggest concerns is that we will get at least twice as many participants and how that will impact our logistics. maybe we will even get some press this time. for additional info go to votersunite.org.

Posted by: conchita | Nov 29 2004 4:35 utc | 12

Conchita, sadly it’s too late. Results are made official Dec. 13. Jackson is the official Organizer of the Rabble called out by xDem party, so of course he’s in touch w/them. This is just face-saving stuff.
If you’re involved in organizing, my thoughts are
1) Demand Bu$hCo resign unconditionally now, effective 1/20.
2) Adopt/update tactics from Civil Rights Movement.Woolworth’s Lunch Counters should become everyone’s polling places. Call for National Strike, Shut America Down, w/all supporters sitting in/camping out at their local polling places. That way we avoid mobs & get neighbors talking to each other. People are much more likely to show up, if it’s in the neighborhood. Say make Dec. 6, a week before it becomes official, National Strike for Democracy Day, or the Beginning of National Strike for Democracy Week…..
(Further it’s not fair to compare US to Ukraine. In fact that’s part of the problem. Ukraine’s masses protesting ‘cuz experienced USgov professionals are organizing it since the CIA’s puppet “lost”. Americans used to seeing that, so they sit around waiting to be informed of demo., rather than new generation starting their own. )

Posted by: jj | Nov 29 2004 6:01 utc | 13

jj –
it’s very late in new york and i am very tired from planning a protest, helping tweak a petition, and trying to have a life of somekind, so i will have to beg off a response to your comment until tomorrow when my brain is working better. (btw, thank you for your lesson in linking. someday i will figure it out.)
however, i did check in with democratic underground before closing up shop for the night and happened upon a discussion with none other than wayne madsen. if this guy is the real deal, there is potentially some very serious shit to come. to save others the painful process of wading through the discussion, i copied his comments, mostly responses to questions, and a few of the questions for context. he was also on pacifica radio earlier in the day and somewhere in the comments or on the kos link is a link to the broadcast. here is the url for those who want to read the whole thing – democraticunderground.com/discuss/
duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=
203&topic_id=86907&mesg_id=86907
and the comments for those who don’t but are curious. i apologize that they are so disjointed, but there was no real order to the discussion.
66. NC
There is a possibility that the vote was fixed in NC also and Gaston County is suspicious — but the scam I’m looking at that involved paying techs to rig the vote was said to definitely involve FL, TX, OH and CA. There may have been other states involved. But the info I received definitely mentioned these Big 4 states.
85. Texas
They used Texas to pad their national margin (the 3+ million votes). They used California for the same thing. Any unusual activity/behavior noticed at any polling place in Texas should be reported. I am forwarding complaints I’m receiving now to Democratic Party and Kerry campaign people.
I think NYC went smoothly. Tammany Hall has not died out just yet. Those old Democrats are smarter than to allow Diebold and ES&S in their domain.
72. Timeline
We are trying to get this story out and have a criminal investigation started to block the Ohio recert on Friday and the meeting of the Electoral College
80. Response
I share your frustration. The Kerry campaign is not the brightest light in the chandelier on being prepared for this fraud. You need to do something like the MeetUps. Organize. Petitions to the media & member of congress, news conferences with losing local Democratic candidates who may have been caught up in the fraud. Force the lazy corporate controlled media to pay attention but don’t get arrested and clobbered around in the process. For Fox News: “If it bleeds, it leads.”
94. Support
I have been meeting with Kerry campaign and Democratic Party people here this weekend. As for me, I’ve taken on the Bushes and Karl Rove for years. I appeared on Greg Palast’s “Bush Family Fortunes” and explained how the Bush Family uses their office to enrich themselves and their buddies. I’m not afraid of them at all. But I do have protection by my two pals: “Mr. Smith and Mr. Wesson.” Unlike the person whose name I’m using as a screen name, Danny Casolaro, I trust no one except my friends, and I take another look at them from time to time.
122. Vote fixers
I communicated with someone who was aware of the project. That person definitely knew about those 4 states. There may have been others but the contact was not in a position to know about other states. But it can’t be ruled out.
60. Sources
My sources are very brave for coming forth but they also know what the risks are if they are exposed. My major job other than reporting this story is protecting them.
54. I’m here
Sorry for the delay… on the check –it is a bank check or cashier’s check. Any EFT larger than $10K would be reported to FINCEN here in Tyson’s Corner, VA. One for $29.6 would get automatically reported to CIA, NSA, FBI, IRS, DHS and others. They kept this to as paperless trail as possible.
111. Check
I have a color digital copy of the check. It is real, right down to anti-forgery features. I have refrained from posting it right now because at this stage the Rove types would doctor it and point to the fake version as proof of a forgery. I’m very aware what the right wing bloggers did to 60 Minutes. They may have merely cleaned up the documents for TV (I’ve seen that done at other networks). But the right jumped all over the docs and discredited Bill Burkett (who is solid) and Dan Rather.
96. Check
That’s right — this check likely generated bundles of cash used for the pay outs. The Bushes like to deal in suitcases of cash as do their friends the Saudis.
104. Investigation
This came to me because of my ongoing work investigating 911 — this info came as a result of a probe into Saudi money in Texas. It was fitting that my first source and I met at Ground Zero. This effort is as much for those who died that day as for those of us who have been left to deal with the perpetrators of that crime.
114. Chances
The chances that a third rate burglary at the Watergate would bring down an administration were about a 4 out of 100 in 1972. These numbers should change but we had a much different kind of news media in 72 and 73. So this is going to be a rough ride.
118. Intel agencies
Some with those agencies have already offered their help to trace the money. I knew I could count on my old “buddies.”
133. Counties
My leads on that are that the counties and precincts were where there were unspecified “security actions” ordered by phony FBI and DHS people. This cleared the way for the techies to perform their “fixes.” What I’ve also been told is that some non-US techies were involved.
146. techies
Not heard about Canadians, but Mexicans, Brazilians and Russians
136. Olbermann
Keith probably doesn’t get out of that bunker in Secaucus, NJ very often. Also, being an ESPN sportscaster may not have been the best experience to judge such a long lead investigative story.
70. Any connection between Five Star Investments and FISX Group Limited?
Or between Equity Financial Trust and FISX Group Limited?
Also, any connection(s) to Caryle or Baker-Botts? Or Worldsec? Or Appleby Spurling and Kempe?
One more, in Florida, was the rigging targeted to certain counties/precincts or did it occur all over? I ask because of the Miami Herald’s independent count in north Florida of 17,000 votes.
Thank you.
151. connection
Not sure about FISX Group.
Baker a very real possibility though. Votes grabbed in FL were statewide, but especially the more populated counties where the padding could go virtually unnoticed.
145. assistance
I’ve been meeting with the Dems and Kerry folks all this weekend here in DC
Eloriel
81. My question is twofold.
I believe one of your correspondents passed along my concern that this may be a set-up similar to the Rather and Hatfield set ups. I know you’re not exactly naive, but you DO realize the Rather thing was a set-up, don’t you (not necessarily targeting Rather specifically). Remember, one of the key ingredients is a lot of TRUTH, with enough falsehood to sink the story and make the lack of credibility the story. Other than your checks and other documents, how are you guarding against this and/or sure that you’re not the target of another set-up?
SECOND —
The real reason that I and several others who have been working on this voting machine issue for two years now are skeptical of this whole storyline is that (1) it’s so highly improbable from a logistics standpoint, based on your description and (2) it’s not necessary — those systems are riggable from inside AND via modem (or wireless) in real time. It’s just not necessary. Why would they dream up a stunt like this, with all its potential for discovery, leaks, etc., when it’s just NOT necessary?
140. Bush m.o.
The Bushes seldom deviate from their m.o., which is to use pass throughs, shell companies, and large amounts of money to get what they want. Yes, there is a lead on gaining access through modems. But that is where I have to be careful. The name I have connected with that is well known and he has sued journalists in the past for libel.
185. support
support was offered and was appreciated
211. DNC
Pretty sad outfit — they can’t even hire a decent Karl Rove type. A “Karl Rove who likes dogs and kids, brakes for animals, but hates Republicans.”
156. Radar
I just don’t get the feeling that Kerry and the big shots have any master plan. But there are other Dems and Kerry people working on this angle of the story and they’ve been supportive.
160. Mandate
Yes, Bush was real sure of himself, like a thief is when he knows he got away with a bank heist.
176. Sources
Since the Bushes destroy their opponents, I am relying on getting the technical details of the rigging. The sources have done their jobs by passing on this information in good faith. I can’t expect them to identify themselves.
121. Great radio this afternoon
It boosted alot of the naysayers confidence in our fight
on DU and here http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/28/2147/5748
check out the poll
Keep up the fight and STAY SAFE
P.S. When you bring Bush down ..I will nominate you to replace him
Madsen For President
168. Thanks
My platform in free beer for everyone but the Neo Cons. Beer is not allowed in Camp X Ray, Guantanamo Bay.
165. prepared
Those 17000 lawyers called up were mostly business lawyers, public policy types, etc. This needed criminal attorneys. I don’t get a feeling that is what they planned for.
181. Carlyle
Not that I’ve discovered but Five Star Investments was set up when Daddy Bush was President for some very specific reasons that he knows about. He is very much involved in this affair.
thebeckerman
182. How Can We Be Sure This is Verifiable?
My question is this: how can we be sure this is verifiable? I want to publicize the story, but don’t know how I can be sure it’s true. Can you give us some help on this?
My biggest question is why would these guys be telling you this, since if everything you say is true, these guys could be killed for speaking to you?
219. Yes
And that is why I am trying to protect their identities. These people have already done more than could be expected considering who they are up against. Now its up to the independent media to get to the bottom of this.
Straight Shooter
129. CIA spooks know where bodies are buried, will they tell any tales?
Just curious about this purge of the CIA. Seems to me some of those folks must be mighty P.O.’d. Also seems to me some of them would know this election is tainted and have the means to prove it.
Any chance at all that there might be an “arrangement” for some info to be discovered “accidentally”?
edit: pardon my manners. Thank you.
188. CIA
Yes, meetings are on schedule
195. talking
They dare not talk to the Feds — the FBI may be involved in this (not all of them but that part that constantly serves as cover up artists for Bush). The state officials in Ohio are mostly Republicans — a Taft, Inc. state. Florida – well that is Jeb’s personal banana republic. Texas – N/A. That leaves California where the Dems still control some statewide offices.
228. vote purge
Yes, its their m.o. to screw those who have the least resources to challenge the disenfranchisement. Ask the African Americans in Florida and Georgia. This happened to them in 2000, 2002 and this year. Cynthia McKinney gets beaten in her mostly African American district in 2002 primary where e-voting was used and comes roarig back this year. She was being punished in 2002 for what she said about GWB and 911.
234. Media jealousy
I know this major media. They practice NIH — “Not Invented Here” therefore, we don’t want it.
216. Amway
I have not looked into that but Amway, Unification Church, Hudson, Coors, Olin, Scaife and all those kooks are involved in this administration.
205. Kiev
What we need is Kiev. There was an anti-vote fraud rally held a week ago Friday in Lafayette Park in front of the White House. 30 people, incl media were there. Media consisted of Al Arabiya and Pacifica.
239. WH
I already have this linked to the White House, actually 2 White Houses: Bush I and Bush II
229. Hopsicker
I know his work but have not been in contact — we’ve been working on some similar stories over the years though.
helderheid
236. I have asked this before and I know you’re swamped But please let me know if you’ve been in touch with Randi Rhodes or anyone at Air America Radio?
252. Randi Rhodes
No, but I’d be happy to talk to her. I can be contacted at wmadsen777@aol.com
trudyco
230. Fisher story tied in at all?
Are you familiar with the Fisher story? Is there anything at all to Baypoint schools and the CyberNet CEO that died recently?
245. Fisher
My latest information is that there is a possible tie-in. I’ve asked someone to check it out on the ground in FL and MI.
254. International (about international press)
Hey, they picked up this story in Vanuatu!!!
286. Code
What I can tell you is that coders in Brazil were used to modify certain software. If anyone can check with the experts if any of these e voting firms were using outsourced programmers, that would be useful info

Posted by: conchita | Nov 29 2004 6:53 utc | 14

slothrop
hope it’s not kneejerk anti americanism; i think i know who i am speaking to here. yes it is anti imperialist & i hope it is an analysis not just a cry
still steel

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 29 2004 11:58 utc | 15

@ conchita: Thanks for all the information.

Posted by: beq | Nov 29 2004 13:04 utc | 16

slothrop
it is also to say – that some catastrophe have a peculiarly american provenance – i am reminded of the slaughter of bhopa carried out by union carbide & its napalm making partner – dow chemical – their terrorism is a matter of public record
still steel

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 29 2004 17:07 utc | 17

rgiap
You would be hard-pressed to prove a wholly American imprimatur on multinational capitalism. I am surprised you would even attempt to do so.
I guess it might be high time for the MoA crowd to stake out, with the most brutally honest criticism, just what a politics of the left is supposed to mean; unless we want this site to become a crypto-leftist version of little green footballs. Given the recent tendentious American-hate rhetoric by some MoA patrons, I wonder if the consensus politics here are mere xenophobic nationalisms. Sure sounds like it. We could use a little more theoretical rigor, don’t you think, rgiap?

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 29 2004 18:00 utc | 18

slothrop
you are right but i will not enter a neutred postmodern discussion where everyone is guilty or everyone is innocent. i want never to forget that when i post here people – a beautiful people are dying for reasons that are entirely explained in lenins ‘imperialism – the highest stage of capitalism’ – if that makes me a vulgar marxist – so be it – but i find the tools that i use are adequate – they do not fail me when facing the slaughterhouse that has been made of this world. i do not feel i need to mediate it through mediations that have to do with language or even about signs. the capital of which marx wrote is the capital at work today
& what is rigour slothrop when it is used to hide or to limit the most confrontational of realities – that u.s. imperialism acts in a way that creates hatred. how could it be otherwise. 10 -12 million people sd no to this war. we are made from many skins. many from your own country.
was it not martin buber who sd that to have power over the nightmare you must call it by its real name. i call it u s imperialism – it is not a description it is a fact. american capital is not the bully boy of internatikonal capital or even transnational capital – it is a country serving its own interests & those interests i have tried patiently if repeatedly (honduras, indonesia, vietnam, phillipines, greece, chile etc) to say what u s imperialism is in the modern era
there are crimes & there is guilt. all i am trying to do here is to describe the crimes & to name the guilty
slothrop, the greater part of the community here is american – do you really think i get my kicks calling you names, do you really think i derive pleasure from this, each post is painful for me as i imagine it is for others – the quest for & of clarity does not guarantee painless nights – on the contrary – it sometimes makes it worse
that to say – when i am speaking to american who are here & i presume for the most part i am speaking to friends or people i would like as friends because there is above all respect & an understanding of our difference
my proper historical experience is that i have known american power in a very concrete way – i’ve sd it here often- & i say what & who i am repeatedly. i don’t need a church, nor a choir – i learn here but i want rigour to be a tool to understand what makes this beast function today & tonight. i want to know the details. the terrible details – so the links here are for me a valuable treasure even when as often they do not concur with my worldview. i’m not seeking that. not at all
if i speak with fury here it is because i am in fury. i waited for generations to call out against the war in vietnam & it took too long – much too long. now in this – our time – i am demanding that this immoral, unjust & illegal war must stop & the massacring of the iraqui people must end
still steel

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 29 2004 18:29 utc | 19

rgiap
sure, sure. Part of the theoretical rigor is obsessively noting where and when such imperialism cultivates and defends the interests of a transnational capitalist class.
To be sure, this late capitalist imperialism must also work to subsidize international, largely anglo, ‘first world’ standards of living and maintain the welfare state in order to politically pacify the electorates for the purpose of legitimating elite power.
One more thing: really, how much different is the sound of “my beloved France” and “Americans are good people” in the ears of the bleating sheep?

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 29 2004 18:45 utc | 20

the tools are there & they are adequate

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 29 2004 18:50 utc | 21

ha ha, fuckin ha:
Sandanista!

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 29 2004 18:52 utc | 22

we started calling out against the vietnam war early on. so while we waited for it to have an impact, the moratorium lasted over 10 years. did the media cover it? did they cover the 500,000 strong protest i attended in sf for the first gulf war, simultanious demos going on all over the country/ doesn’t mean it’s not happening. its easy enough to lump us all in one catagory and say we are asleep. personally i am disgusted at the lack of protest against the election and am having a meeting at my home tonight to organize a protest here in seattle. but there is nothing in the press, well hardly. don’t think that there aren’t millions of people here disgusted by the war, there are. we we have no power, even at the ballot box. our election was stolen. we have to live with these people. they control our government. i agree w/ name @ 5:48. but all americans cannot be lumped into one. to assume that there are people outside the US that hate the policies of this administration more than people here suppressed by them, is to live in a fantasy.

Posted by: annie | Nov 29 2004 19:04 utc | 23

@b
Really, I’m sure they get it, and all concerned at the Defense Science Board Task Force (what ever the hell that is ) are all highly informed — and are as well versed in proceedure as the road show version of the musical “Cats”. I know these people seem really stupid to many of us here. And in this case, they just happened to, in their myopic dufus way, stumble over the truth, but instead of seeing it, they get on up and brush it off like so much annoying dust.
I think, and perhaps Pat would also attest to this, that any buerocratic culture worth it’s choreographic salt cannot afford to let any piece of information be ignored or overlooked — particularly if there is but the faintest ring of truth about it — no, especially the truth, must immediatly be suited up in full and convincing costume. The truth as such then is not only varnished and shellacked, but done so to such an extent, that it is transformed from its living context into a “preserved in amber” artifact suitable for endless speculation, facination, and most importantly presentation (or spin as we know it).
What we are witness to here is the infiltration of domestic buerocracy into military culture. A cursery look at the “war on drugs” would be indicitive: Rather than target the cause and effect victimization with regards to drug use, the buerocratic solution is to embellish the problem into an abstraction that can then be used to develop a production and script suitable to show an unwitting public, a dramatization of the solution that has the pre-determined effect of maintaing both the original problem(drugs) and the steady flow of funds to maintain the production. It is important to note, that the flow of drugs into the US plays a vitle role in the intentional maintance of some portions of society and that its total eradication would create greater problems for the government, so a careful balance must be achieved between its eradication and its proliferation. And what could be more appropriate than a program that can maintain this balance and at the same time generate a long term supply of ample federal funding for Madison Avenue and the Military that can at the same time accomplish foreign policy directives.Hense, the “show will go on” — for ever, if possible.

Posted by: anna missed | Nov 29 2004 19:53 utc | 24

slothrop
saw an article – much like the one you linked – but significantly more optimistic about the growth & consolidation of the sandinistas & suggesting that though rumsfield was continuing the reaganian politics in regard to latin america in general & nicaragua in praticular – that this time there was considerable animosity to the american position even by forces not aligned with daniel ortega & the sandanistas
i hope for the sake of the nicaraguan people that the u s keeps its bloody hands off this country – it has suffered too much in the past & is living difficultly the present
the old criminal – expert in torture & death of latin american – mr negroponte is now the consul in iraq & perhaps there is enough blood there to satisfy his needs
still steel

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 29 2004 22:11 utc | 25

Yet, another justification of u.s. “success” in Falluja.
By driving a wedge between sunnis and shiites, u.s. can greatly reduce the danger a national war of liberation poses to the occupation. To this end, u.s. policy is working.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 29 2004 22:31 utc | 26

slothrop
i do not agree. this momentary ‘success’ of the americans is just that, momentary. do you really think any of these alliances arre written in stone. they are written in sand
no, a war of liberation has already commenced & it will be won by the iraquis on any battlefield of their choosing. the u s imperial project lost the moment it began to use a pre-emptive strategy & it already lost this war from the moment it said it was accomplished. i would say at that very moment the real organisation of the resistance began
all alliances that the americans have ever made in history have been doomed to failure – sooner or later. wherever it was form a corrupt clique in saigon, indonesian potentates, latin american oligarchs – the alliances have all turned to shit.
you presume an imperial project that is bothe more intelligent & more flexible than either french or british imperialism. i think the opposite is true – the beast has already fallen – in the orgy of sadean violence that constituted fallujah – was the bell ringing for the victory of the entire arab cause – whatever that may be – whatever it is transformed by in the next ten years. but surely the beast has fallen – when it went house to hous family to family – as its predecessors the germany army did in stalingrad – it came out with less than emptiness – it came out with its soul torn into little pieces as it did to the flesh of the iraqui pêople
i am reminded of the great film by kobayashi ‘harikiri’ where for the entire film we think, we presume & our prejudice leads us to beleive in a power that is not a power at all – it is a vacuum & as in the film – the protagonist who seems weak, old, finished – is the power, the beauty & the truth
that is the situation in iraq. & the measure of the success already is that there will never be an attack on iran. they are too weak. they cannot afford it. oh yes they would like to – they would like to send their israeli assasins to do the dirty work – but it will not happen – because that would signal a defeat of proportions that the central command do not want to even begin thinking about
there will be suffering – primarily of the iraqui people but i also think of the american people because whatever illusions people have had about that ‘power’ – it is & will be revealed in all its sordid tragedy
this man bush & his group of crimuinals have been sent to break your heart as well as break your back & this they will do – in fact they are condemened to do it because they are neither intelligent or flexible
even less so than the british who were humiliated by their defeat & that was what it was – it was the end of their little dreams of empire – singapore before singapore
we will witness worse to come – & unhappily that is so for iraq & for us but to think an american victory of any kind can be won even in the short term is close to being delusional. they have neither the means or importantly the character for such a victory
i predict that within the next six months you will see an eveident war of liberation taking place with cost escalating exponentially – what normally would have taken five years will take six months
no, if american imperialism has won any battles it is for the silence of you & i of the people & the govt ,of the west – & as i have sd to b here i am frightened that the french or the germans will comprimise for gains that are nothing more than illusory
still steel

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 29 2004 23:36 utc | 27

@r’giap & as i have sd to b here i am frightened that the french or the germans will comprimise for gains that are nothing more than illusory
Unfortunatly, I think that may happen. There was small victory over the Iran case today. The next fight is taking place at the ECB. Will they “protect” the Dollar from a fall? That effectively means inflation in Europe hurting the people with smaller income to finance US consumtion and exporters profits.
That is the real war going on and I have no idea who tracks back first in that game of chicken.

Posted by: b | Nov 30 2004 0:05 utc | 28

rgiap
You may very well be right. There are so many trajectories of this history: a hostage situation in the green zone; another ‘sadrist’ rebellion, etc.
In any case, dividing, not uniting, Iraq seems to be u.s. nearterm strategy to fracture the insurgency. My hunch is the gamble will fail.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 30 2004 0:50 utc | 29

To carry on my above post into the Iraq situation, givin the developments over the past 20 odd months, the only real consistancy I can see in the US policy is an adherence, more or less, to the neo-con notion of “perpetual war”. And this would in effect be a move toward reshaping the war on terror into a bureaucracy not unlike the war on drugs. Sure, other analysis (like N.Klines’) make a lot of sense toward explaning all of the CPA gyrations and the free market utopian day dreams, but also show how fatally flawed it was from the beginning ie the legal and insurance problems. Then to add all the other incalculatable atrocities both tactical, civil, and humanitarian, and one is left with the unavoidable conclusion — that somehow, all this is okay with them, maybe not exactly a plan, but nonetheless the creation of circumstances to be managed toward an outcome favorable to ultimate subjugation — both in Iraq and in the US.
In Iraq, the failure of all past attempts to reign the country under complete control have the characteristic of generating both greater insurgency and greater civil strife between ethnic groups. While this seems counterproductive, if perpetual war is the intent, these ingredients would be necessary in manageable portions. So if the Sunnis have become the outspoken resistance, beat them enough to inspire anomosity toward the Shia, but not so much as to not remain a threat to the Shia — givin their eventual political power. This way the Shia will desire protection from the US. The Kurdish faction, givin Shiite authority, should desire autonomy, and thus US protection from Turkish incursion. Anyway, the US is involved for the long term either as a police (anti – terror) function or as hedge against civil or inter-nation war — all the while busy configuring evermore comprehensive control over resourses.
In the US all this is of course, is endlessly cast as the war on terror, and its management. The fact that the only operatives within the US government to be fired or re-shuffled are those in opposition to this policy, again lend credence to the view that all is on track, that the objectives are being met. I know it’s counter-intuitive to think of OIF as a success, but if perpetual war and its commodification through bureaucratic transformation is the aim, then it’s hard, at this point, to see malfunction and failure, when the fruits of the program are clearly in evidence everywhere, like so many rotting apples under a fall apple tree — being sold as the real thing, and touted by their ready consumption.

Posted by: anna missed | Nov 30 2004 10:22 utc | 30

Under these circumstances, democracy is just another word for domination.

Posted by: anna missed | Nov 30 2004 10:46 utc | 31

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