Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
November 20, 2004
Some Questions

by DeAnander in the last open thread:

I’m not feeling real hopeful — reading the latest Adbusters always seems to send me into a pit of despair, even when they’re trying to be inspiring — as with the current year end issue.

However I will wave a modestly hopeful questioning essay (typesetters tip: scroll down to read it) by Greg Bates, on the issues of monoculture, diversity, and punctuated equilibrium.

Bates suggests that in the complete, incompetent meltdown of the Dem Party in the US, its inability to distinguish itself from its ‘competitor’ the Repubs, may be the moment of opportunity for the formation of diverse new political parties. He argues, as I read the text, that only the meltdown and utter failure of the Dems will create this window of opportunity.

I think this has a lot to do with what’s called "the investment trap" in games theory and investment jargon — where the individual or consortium cannot abandon a losing strategy because they are unwilling to let go of the investment they already have in it. They are throwing good money after bad, as the saying goes, because they cannot bear to admit that the bad money is already lost. They can’t cut their losses and get over it. They probably have to lose N times the original investment (I’m sure someone has written papers on this!) before, finally, painfully, they admit that it was a mistake in the first place.

I fear that progressives in the US have got to this point with the Dem Party. Three terms’ worth of betrayal so far and counting. Open question — and my mind is not firmly made up on this — is it really beyond repair? Can it be salvaged? Is there any hope of a massive reform of the party, or is it doomed as Bates suggests to drift further and further to the right, chasing the Nuovos Fascistas into the sunset?

One other question for gambling types. If the economic crash predicted by our pessimists (and I’m more or less one of ’em) comes to pass, then what will the reaction of the US populace be? An ugly ethnic/nationalist fascist reaction, blaming everyone in sight — Arabs, Jews, enviros, Blacks, Asians, women, China, the EU — for the disaster? Or a Game Over, Reset moment, a re-evaluation, and a New New Deal? Both?

Comments

I have to say I am so thankful and blown away by the discourse here, sorry I don’t have the time right now to add much I just wanted to say
you people give me hope!

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Nov 20 2004 21:51 utc | 1

$csm
never got the second response from Mozilla BTW.
I grew up with TV…………… then migrated to radio……… and now I just blog here and there and read news and opinions/editorials.
I sometimes think if the MSM are happy that we are caged here…….. in an echo chamber?

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Nov 20 2004 22:08 utc | 2

On the “investment trap”: The greatest speculator of all time, Jesse Livermore, had a rule: when a deal goes 10% against you, get out. Don´t start thinking about why it goes wrong, just leave it.

I never understood how the progressives could allow the Dems leadership to move away from Dean without retracting their support. What are the Dems without the progressives but a “left” wing of the far right Repubs?
The US needs a new movement build from the ground. Start at local levels and build up slowly over years.

Reactions to a crash: – isolation and trade wars. Some “hits” on somebody who can not hit back. Reset and new new deal only after everything else failed.
Winston Churchill :
“Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing…after they have exhausted all other possibilities.”

Posted by: MoonVulture | Nov 20 2004 22:33 utc | 3

b -MoonVulture? Are we a dead carcass?
thanks for putting up this thread, I’ll try to bring up the optimistic answer tomorrow, no time today.
(first evening in almost 3 months when all our kids went to sleep early and we – me and my wife – could spend a quiet evening. We’ll know only in 18 months in what condition our son will make it, sometimes morale is not so good. At least he’s in a good mood most of the time and not suffering much. Sorry to bother you all with those details, sometimes it just needs to come out).
Probability – and game theory – is not for wimps.

Posted by: Jérôme | Nov 20 2004 23:20 utc | 4

jérôme
details are what make the treasures of these threads. don’t demand pardon – it is inappropriate
still steel

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 20 2004 23:23 utc | 5

Somewhere in the last week or two, it was put forth that Howard Dean might step into Terry McAuliffe’s (sp?) place. What then?
@b: that’s grim.

Posted by: beq | Nov 20 2004 23:35 utc | 6

Oh, and @ Jerome, still thinking of you.

Posted by: beq | Nov 20 2004 23:52 utc | 7

Rgiap – thanks

Posted by: Jérôme | Nov 20 2004 23:53 utc | 8

jérôme
i think, if anything, your current situation gives you a clearer hold on questions of life & questions of death, questions of probability & of game theory that are extremely pertinent to the questions you write about with such generosity but i’m still a little concerned about your boxed dvd ste of ‘friends’ – at least watch patrick sebastien like regis debray
still steel

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 21 2004 0:01 utc | 9

I don’t know if this will make you feel any better, but here goes…
Unless I hallucinated the ’90s, a Democrat was president for two terms, & enjoyed record-high approval rating, even while being impeached. No “swiftboat veterans” questioned his military honour — he was an admitted draft-dodger and pot smoker. Yet Americans loved him and probably would have elected him to 3rd term if he’d been allowed to run. Now all this was not so long ago. A draft-dodging Democrat was president, the economy was good, the sky didn’t fall and the country did not get taken over by Al Qaeda or anyone else. This administration revelled in dismantling the Balkans and killed thousands of innocent people while bombing apartment complexes, hospitals, refugees and other civilian areas in 1999; they contributed to the deaths of half a million Iraqi children through supporting sanctions (and lopping the odd bomb at Iraq every so often); and bombed an aspirin factory in Sudan. Business as usual for the US.
Really, Kerry didn’t lose by that much, and America prefers personality to intellect — a more charismatic candidate would have made a difference. I have no doubt that the Democratic Party will rise again, win an election, and continue to pursue the same, pro-intervention, pro-Israel policies that have brought the US to this point. Except for a few ‘feel good’ policies regarding minorities, women and gays, there never was much difference between the two parties. Same loyalty to corporations, the military-industrial complex, American world dominance and exceptionalism.
Damn, now I’m depressed.

Posted by: kat | Nov 21 2004 0:28 utc | 10

So, kat. How do we keep Obama alive until ’08?

Posted by: beq | Nov 21 2004 0:32 utc | 11

kat:
right on.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 21 2004 0:42 utc | 12

jerome- thank you for letting us know the situation. even tho I am not a praying person, I make the exception for you and yours.

Posted by: fauxreal | Nov 21 2004 1:21 utc | 13

@jerome:
Good luck with it.
@MV:
Interesting handle.
Ole Jesse didn’t follow his own advice as I recall. Died broke, in the mid-thirties of a self-inflicted gun shot.
@Slothrop:
On the previous thread: the law is an ass, as someone famous sad.
@ All:
Now if everyone on this thread is going to (1)insist that the Democratic Pary is no different from the RepCraps; (2)Continue to wail about the results of the election, without coming up with substantive suggestions; or (3), suggest that St. Ralph or some other obscure third-party type is America’s salvation, please give me one of two things, your choice:
A big barf bag or Jesse Livermore’s pistol.

Posted by: FlashHarry | Nov 21 2004 1:26 utc | 14

about Bates’ essay-
Both Grover Norquist and Newt Gingrich were saying the same thing about the democratic party immediately after the election…that there will be no democratic party, as we know it, when they are through with their “regressive revolution.”
Gingrinch (I misspelled this, but I think it actually fits) also use the historical example of the Whigs as his vision for the dems.
Since I’ve always voted “against” and not “for,” this would not necessarily be a bad thing, if there is another option that can both have progressive plans and can fight against the current power structure and actually win.
But I think, in my pessimism, that in order for this to happen, there will have to be great suffering here. That’s how a progressive moment came about in the first place, and every fight it won was hard fought against moneyed power.
But things continued to get so bad that I think the two Roosevelt’s made the changes they did because they saw that revolution was on its way to America. Their actions kept the elites in power, but made it possible for many more to live something other than a Hobbesean existence.
While the Republicans see the dems as the Whigs, I see the Republicans and the Democrats as gilded age politicians.
In the theory of punctuated equilibrium, if I remember correctly, it’s not so much about limited variation in a particular niche, but instead the issue is PE comes about because of EXTREME environmental pressure which so reduces a population that the mutations or changes that will be able to flourish in this new environment (which have accumulated in the genes) are the only ones that make survival possible.
Others die out.
But sometimes, as was noted in the anthorpod examples, entire species die out.
Or, perhaps, they are so marginalized, they are found living in isolation in a remote forest in the one part of the hemisphere… and over time people had forgotten they had ever existed.
This, no doubt, is the hope of Norquist and Gingrinch for progressive politics.
However, I wonder if the economic pressures Bush is exerting on the middle and lower classes will become the force for the extinction of those peoples’ identification with the Republicans.
When the “moral majority” gets its abortion restrictions passed, and its resegregation of gays and lesbians in society, where will this sector turn their anger next? Didn’t Jesus say something about how hard it is for rich men to get into heaven? Shouldn’t they think about helping to make it easier for CEOs and the pols who love them?

Posted by: fauxreal | Nov 21 2004 1:54 utc | 15

Thank you so much Deanander for putting us on to that article!
I cried no tears for Daschel. I was so pissed off with him while watching F9/11 that I swore I would go Green after the election. If Howard Dean or someone of his stripe doesn’t get the DNC chair, I am defecting. Hell, I am in red Indiana, I may as well vote Green all the time. The thing that most disapointed me about Kerry was his stance on gay marriage, it was so obvious that he supported it and that his “position” against it was entirely political. Fuck him. That and his stupid ass, I-would-still-vote-for-the-war-even-with-hindsight contortion. Reading the Bates article, all of my frustrations with the Dems, the fact that I loath my town’s Democrat administration and the recent opportunity I had to talk to Ben Mansky, the Co-Chair of the National Green Party, my days being an ass are quickly comming to an end. In fact, I am emailing him as soon as I finish this sentence (double meaing intended).

Posted by: Stoy | Nov 21 2004 6:17 utc | 16

@kat: clinton era, kosovo, sanctions — part of the “betrayal” I was talking about, though heaven knows it goes further back than just three terms. and I’m depressed too 🙁
the “hope” I was suggesting was not hope for the revival of the Dem Party — though if anyone would like to suggest that, I suppose it’s a possibility. personally I think the US political system has reached the point of comic opera, but no significant change is likely to come about without either (a) a major crash and restructuring, or (b) a massive movement for reform — and (b) may never happen without (a) to motivate people.
lately it’s been seeming to me that human institutions — countries, companies, organisations, sports teams, theatre groups, newspapers — every kind of karass and granfalloon 🙂 they all have a life-cycle. there’s a startup phase and a growth phase and a “peak phase” and then a kind of apoptosis, a falling-away or overripeness or gradual dissolution. at some point the freshness of purpose is lost and the activity the group was formed to pursue either becomes ritualised and uninteresting, or a front for some completely different agenda.
the quality of the product declines if it’s a company. the quality of the art declines if it’s a theatre group or a band. if it’s a charity or NGO, then it starts to devote more energy to its own internal politics and self-maintenance than to the cause it was supposed to be upholding. it gets rotten inside, like old wood — until there isn’t any “there” there, and the whole thing becomes a shell or worse, a perversion, a negation and betrayal, of its original purpose.
unions that start out breathing fire, based on worker’s circles and grassroots organising, taking on Goliath and winning — become professionalised and “managed”, turn into big business, end up in bed with the mafia and politicians, get chummy with management, become Goliath, start suppressing dissent among the workers. the underground, humble and radical faith of the early Christians gets co-opted into a State religion, and eventually the Church becomes the playground of Medicis and Borgias and similar “purse-proud prelates”. really great movies have lousy sequels 🙂 novelists turn out a few good novels and then a string of potboilers.
and empires I suspect “fall” partly because of overstretch and hubris, but also partly because purpose and competence and coherence evaporate over time… anyway I have this strange feeling that American domestic politics — once lively, loud, and a lot of the time very sincere — has reached this watershed where the purpose and coherence has gone out of it (most people find it meaningless and boring), and it has become deeply corrupted (probably the corruption and the incoherence/boredom are mutually reinforcing in a chicken/egg dynamic). it’s as if politics has become a ritual, instead of the original and real activity of which the ritual is a commemoration…? (certainly the culture of Madison Avenue and Big Media with their conversion of everything into spectacle, and spectacle into commodity, is not helping).
in a theatre group or collective or small business, when this point of boredom and incipient failure (or embezzlement) is reached, usually there’s a huge blow-up, a lot of shouting, some people are never on speaking terms again and either the whole enterprise folds up, or it fragments into smaller units that go forth and make a fresh start.
so by analogy I wonder whether American politics as we know it is on the verge of fragmentation. the violent disagreement of the “red/blue” state model, with people talking about physically relocating in order to get closer to those they agree with and further from those they dislike — the rumblings about progressives becoming states’ rights advocates to protect their hard-earned gains regionally — suggests Balkanisation.
I’m not a huge fan of Balkanisation for all the obvious reasons, but a bit more Balkanisation of US politics might arguably be a good thing if it stirred up real enthusiasm and some will to make structural changes. my personal wish list: proportional representation, IRV, parliamentary process. any takers? and what would it take to get there? what’s the alternative? one-Party rule in some weird-ass Orwellian future?

Posted by: DeAnander | Nov 21 2004 6:51 utc | 17

What is IRV?
Anyway, I would more recomend a good referendum-based decision making (like Switzerland) then parliamentary process and proportional representation, as the later is what I live in and the former is what I wish for. (I would love an answer from Blackie on the downsides of referendum-based decision making because you live in Switzerland, right?)
Speaking of people moving, I guess you have heard about the Free state project, libertarian activists gathering to New Hampshire to get a libertarian state (more or less). It has been going on for some time now and I think they will pull it of. Their reasoning as to how and under what circumstances 20 000 activists can have a major influence on a state is of interest to anyone interested in building a political movement in the US.

Posted by: A swedish kind of death | Nov 21 2004 10:30 utc | 18

A swedish kind of death:
the disadvantages of Swiss referendums are that the hurrdles are relatively low and anybody can start one. Not bad as such, but sometimes there is just a flood of referendums to vote on, and it is difficult to keep up with the information. So at times their is a voting fatique and people to not vote in high numbers.
The other disadvantage is that it is a slow processes. I used to think that is bad, but lately I have come to appreciate it and think it is acutally good, it gives time for compromise and finding alternative or better solutions and sometimes just ending up with the status quo.
The thing I started to appreciate even more since Bush came in to power is that Switzerland is ruled by a collective of 7 Counselers or Bundesräte, proportional to their parties numbers of Representatives. So those Counselers from opposing parties have to rule together. The last of these Counselers ‘selected’ into the Bundesrat was a small Bush. I was frustrated how he ellbowed himself into this position. But now it seems that his wings have been clipped and he has lost some of his power and reputation. So maybe the biggest advantage to the Swiss system, at least until now, is that no single person can dominate this system. It’s fun to watch those egos clashing, as they are all of equal power and have to find consensus.
Sorry, my English isn’t as eloquent as Blackies, but maybe the information is still of interest for you.

Posted by: Fran | Nov 21 2004 10:51 utc | 19

Just remembered that a while ago I had to describe the Swiss political system in a paper. Here the most important part.

Switzerland’s political life is based on direct democracy. The Government is build upon a Parliament, consisting of a Nationalrat (House of Representatives) with 200 members and a Ständerat (Senators) with 46 members. They are elected proportionally, according to the percentage of votes their parties received. A unique feature is our Bundesrat, a collective of seven counselors elected from the members of parliament. Each year one of these counselors is President of Switzerland. There is no single person with a lot of power; the power on all levels is shared. The highest level is the sovereign – that is the people. Basically the people vote on everything. Certain laws, changes of tax system etc. have to be put to vote automatically. For others there has to be a referendum, initiated by a group of people, like a political party, the labor union or even private persons. Then there is the initiative – a tool with which the people can introduce laws or changes of laws. A certain number of signatures are needed for the referendums or the initiatives to be voted on.

Posted by: Fran | Nov 21 2004 11:02 utc | 20

@ Fran:
Thanks, I asked for Blackie as I didn´t know that we had more than one Swiss among us. And your english is just fine.
I also think slowness can be an advantage, as quickly passed laws passed in a state of general moral outrage often turn out to be the worst laws.
I followed your local farrightwingers way into the Bundesrat. Of course it is not good that so many people vote for him, but I compare it to what happened in Sweden in the early nighties. Then a farrightparty entered the parliament of Sweden – that would be the riksdag in swedish. They got around 7-8 % of the seats, were generally scorned upon, isolated and fell apart before their first term was finished. But their politics regarding refugees was picked up by the major parties. Today we are still stuck with those laws as the two biggest parties cling to those policies fearing that if they let go a new farrightwingparty will emerge or that the other big party will gain. Thus the farrightwingers of the early nighties had a influence far beyond their 7-8 % of the vote.
I think the risk of something like this happening in Switzerland is minimal as the laws can be tried in referendum.
Anthow, when you say “flood of referendums” are they
a) unimportant issues which only a small minority cares about
b) obstructive (a minority refusing to accept their position and trying an issue over and over)
c) poorly distributed in time
or d) something else?

Posted by: A swedish kind of death | Nov 21 2004 12:42 utc | 21

Fran, thanks for the concise presentation of the swiss system.
I remember the swiss tax system as essential to having a referendum-based decision process. Was it that every expense is linked to a tax or every tax is linked to an expense? Both? Neither?

Posted by: A swedish kind of death | Nov 21 2004 13:03 utc | 22

A swedish kind of death:
I would say it is all of them, but the major part I would consider to a)+b). But then again I think b) is relative, if you consider that one of those obstructive recurring topics has been for decades the womens right to vote. Another one is the topic of immigrant and asylum seekers. They show up regularly, as in one form or another a second tunnel through the St.Gotthard mountain and so on.
Was it that every expense is linked to a tax or every tax is linked to an expense? Both? Neither? I don’t understand your question.
Just as an example, I think earlier this year that new tax laws were rejected. The whole thing was very complicated and no one knew actually how to explain it. But it containt new rules like married couples doing separat tax declarations, they still pay more taxes then unmarried couples. This was one of the things that made sense, like one or two other things, but the rest was mostly Pork and BS, so it was heavily rejected.
Despite the flood of referendums and initiatives I am glad to live in a country that gives me the opportunity to have a voice in the decisions, despite mostly being on the loser’s side.

Posted by: Fran | Nov 21 2004 13:54 utc | 23

@ Fran
I had gotten some (apparently wrong) impression about swiss tax law. Glad to get that straighten out. Forget that question.
How often is reguarly? Once a year? Once in a decade?
[O]ne of those obstructive recurring topics has been for decades the womens right to vote.
This is the one thing that comes up most times I argue for a more swiss system in Sweden, so if you don´t mind I´d like to take the opportunity to find out more. Was womens right to vote a question that was decided on federal or cantonal level? Which year(s) was it passed?

Posted by: A swedish kind of death | Nov 21 2004 14:06 utc | 24

A swedish kind of death:
Was womens right to vote a question that was decided on federal or cantonal level? Which year(s) was it passed?
Now that is not that easy to answer, as I think it was achieved in a typical Swiss way – long, slow and individually. As far as I remember some cantons had the womens right before the federal vote – I don’t have the dates. The federal vote was in 1971, very late compared to the rest of Europe. However, the last canton to give the womens vote on a cantonal level was in 1990, and it was a decision by the highest Federal court which declared the fact as inconstitutional.
If you like to know more about our system I found a site with a English section The Federal Assembly – The Swiss Parliament

Posted by: Fran | Nov 21 2004 14:34 utc | 25

Forgot to answer the other question. We vote on the average 3-5 times a year on about 3-8 topics on the average.

Posted by: Anonymous | Nov 21 2004 14:42 utc | 26

Thank you again, what I meant with the other question was: A topic that shows up reguarly, how often is that? Take that tunnel for example, is that voted on three times a year, once a year, every fifth year?
I am interested in how often a recurring topic keeps popping up. Because it should (if you want to push an agenda) be disadvantageos to raise your question to often, as people would (I guess) be annoyed at you and vote for the other side out of spite.

Posted by: A swedish kind of death | Nov 21 2004 14:53 utc | 27

Well, they show up like every 3-6 years, some less often like EU membership, immigrationtopics more often. Yes, I think thats what happens when it comes up to often. This is why the put the EU membership on the back burner, but I am sure at the beginning of the next decade it will come up again. Another topic that showed up repeatetly was the UN membership, it also had big intervals. I think local topics show up more often, federal topics less often.

Posted by: Fran | Nov 21 2004 15:00 utc | 28

swiss friends: please forgive an ignorant comment, but it sounds to me as though the swiss national government evolved upwards from the “free city” model, i.e. it is just a larger, national version of a Guild Hall or other “council of elders” (aldermen). whereas the UK/Euro parliamentary model evolved as a (grudgingly permitted) counterbalance to an absolute monarch and is still warped by its roots in a franchise for the landed gentry only… here’s where my vast historical ignorance shows — embarrassed-but-inquiring minds want to know: was Switzerland ever ruled by hereditary royalty, and if so, for how long? can anyone give us a rough timeline of Swiss political structure, how power was shared at different historical periods? it seems a radically populist system as described here, and yet I can’t remember offhand any famous “Swiss Revolution” where the aristos were hanged and generally bullied into letting the commons have their say.

Posted by: DeAnander | Nov 21 2004 19:46 utc | 29

DeAnander:
here are two links to short overviews of the Swiss history The History of Switzerland: A Chronological Survey of Key Dates and Events
Information about the history of Switzerland
Some Swiss people are still in love with Wilhelm Tell who in the legend about the apple shot by Schiller plays a major roll in the founding of the primeval cantons and as such the root of Switzerland.
Ladies and Gentlemen, we proudly present: Wilhelm Tell!
hope this is of some help to you. Well, for me it is bedtime.

Posted by: Fran | Nov 21 2004 21:09 utc | 30

investment trap?
in managerial accounting all past investments are “sunken costs” and do not influence the actual decision. you calculate the value of the business alternatives and decide with a cold heart which one to choose. if the alternative has a higher value, you drop the investment and that’s it.

Posted by: MarcinGomulka | Nov 21 2004 23:30 utc | 31

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think some of the individual cantons has had monarchy (has a faint memory of “the prince of Neuchâtel” in the 19th-century) while the swiss federation has always been a federation (except for a brief stint during the Napoleonic wars) with a precious balance of power mainly between different cantons. I think the Guild is probably a good way to understand it, though I have limited knowledge of the political structures pre-19th century.
It has long been a mystery to me why the ruling liberals in the constitution of 1874 gave up some power in allowing all decisions to be tried in referendum (among those entitled to vote that is). So I followed some links of Fran´s links and found this:
In 1869 the democrats won the constitutional battle in Zurich. Henceforth the government [of Zurich] was elected directly by the people and all parliamentary bills had to be submitted to popular vote.

Apparently the liberals rather took their opponents agenda (please note that the opposing parties here is the liberals vs the democrats) than lost the elections. And it was a good way to make sure that should they still lose, they could use the referendums to avoid the democrats changing to much laws.
DeAnander, while there was no famous Swiss revolution, the Sonderbund war of 1847 (Swiss civil war) is often considered the prelude to the european revolutions of 1848.
Fran, I find the almost-revolution of 1918 interesting (your link originally)
The dire economic situation and the political tensions pave the way to a country-wide general strike calling for e.g., proportional representation in the National Council, women’s suffrage, a 48-hour work week, and social security insurance. Following the Federal Council’s ultimatum to bring in the troops, the strike leaders give in without a fight.
There could so easily have been universal suffrage in Switzerland 1918 and that would have made it one of the early countries instead of one of the last.

Posted by: A swedish kind of death | Nov 22 2004 1:43 utc | 32