Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
November 10, 2004
Operation “Phantom Victory”

"So we made it," said a surprised and sweating Lance Cpl. Carlos Cabezasrojas of Secaucus, N.J., as his company launched its final attack of the day. "I got my confirmed kill, too."

Looks like he knows why he is doing this. And look at these officers. They do have a very gentlemen like behaviour.

Capt. Gil Juarez, the light armored reconnaissance company commander, began the assault by blasting his 25mm turret gun down a street toward a target house. Teams fired small mortars. "You want me to fire one more volley?" Juarez asked a Bravo Company officer.
"Please, sir, if you would," the officer replied.

Marines blast into Fallujah

Meanwhile there is a new Iraq-US-alliance forming between Riverbend and Rumsfeld. She writes:

There are a couple of things I agree with. The first is the following:

"Over time you’ll find that the process of tipping will take place, that more
and more of the Iraqis will be angry about the fact that their innocent
people are being killed…"

He’s right. It is going to have a decisive affect on Iraqi opinion …

The second thing Rumsfeld said made me think he was reading my mind:

"Rule of Iraq assassins must end…"

I couldn’t agree more: Get out Americans.

Comments

Thank you Bernhard.
I also agree completely with Riverbend and noted as much on my own screed.
As Kate S. says on the open thread.
There are no feeble witnesses.

Posted by: RossK | Nov 10 2004 18:23 utc | 1

…..Troops found CDs and documents of people taken captive in houses in the northern part of Fallujah, Maj. Gen. Abdul Qader Mohammed Jassem Mohan told reporters……
“We have found hostage slaughterhouses in Fallujah that were used by these people and the black clothing that they used to wear to identify themselves, hundreds of CDs and whole records with names of hostages,” the general said at a military camp near Fallujah…
So, some black clothing, hundreds of CDs, identical at a guess to the thousands of CDs swilling around the markets of Mosul, Basra, Baghdad et cetera. And ‘documents of people taken captive’ – what does he mean ‘documents of people taken captive’? Does he mean personal documents belonging to hostages or does he mean the ‘records with names of hostages’ he refers to? As in lists, perhaps? Or press-clippings maybe? We’ll leave the last word to Major General Mohan:
“I did not look closely” at the documents, he said…
Iraq troops find ‘hostage slaughterhouses’
Propaganda? Don’t forget you can have any color you like – as long as it’s black

Posted by: Anonymous | Nov 10 2004 19:03 utc | 2

Former weapon inspector Scott Ritter: Squeezing jello in Iraq

Far from facing off in a decisive battle against the resistance fighters, it seems the more Americans squeeze Falluja, the more the violence explodes elsewhere. It is exercises in futility, akin to squeezing jello. The more you try to get a grasp on the problem, the more it slips through your fingers.

While the US military leadership struggles to get a grip on a situation in Iraq that deteriorates each and every day, the anti-US occupation fighters continue to execute a game plan that has been in position since day one.

The images from Falluja will only fuel the anti-American sentiment in Iraq, enabling the anti-US fighters to recruit ten new fighters for every newly-minted ‘martyr’ it loses in the current battle against the Americans.

Falluja is probably the beginning of a very long and bloody phase of the Iraq war, one that pits an American military under orders from a rejuvenated Bush administration to achieve victory at any cost against an Iraqi resistance that is willing to allow Iraq to sink into a quagmire of death and destruction in order to bog down and eventually expel the American occupier.
It is a war the United States cannot win, and which the government of Iyad Allawi cannot survive. Unfortunately, since recent polls show that some 70% of the American people support the war in Iraq, it is a war that will rage until the American domestic political dynamic changes, and the tide of public opinion turns against the war.
Tragically, this means many more years of conflict in Iraq that will result in thousands more killed on both sides, and incomprehensible suffering for the people of Iraq, and unpredictable instability for the entire Middle East.

Posted by: b | Nov 10 2004 19:24 utc | 3

three good front page articles (escobar, raman & shahzad) @ asia times online today
cryptome has more fallujah photo links
narco news interview w/ eduardo galeano – ‘the war on drugs is a great imperial hypocrisy’

Posted by: b real | Nov 10 2004 19:25 utc | 4

So maybe Bush is getting his trench warfare of the mind on — closing all outlets of information flowing to the west and so thinking he can cover the genocide with a properly orchestrated blanket of propaganda — propaganda that is calculated to prevent dissolutionment, first among his own operatives in the field, then the few remaining (western) reporters, and finally those supporters back home. Drivin by the belief that if all contrary eyewitness opinion and reportage is smothered, this somehow, will be enough to change the true facts and knowledge on the ground. This is the same old self delusion
that has so characterized this whole pathetic escapade. In an ever growing and greater cycle of deception, the stakes are perpetually raised as the illusion of success requires ever greater portions of deception.
The monumental truth here is this cycle of deception, made to fool the deceiver first, has with it in inverse proportion, an also ever increasing spiral with the odds of failure. And so as the failure stacks up, and genocide becomes that single remaining option, in the face of a population that can see clearly through the facade, the perception of genocide could very well be the last remaining obstacle to be cleared away in the minds of those Iraqis willing to bend over backwards in accomodation of the American effort.
It would be some irony that just as the channels of propaganda become pristine, and all vestages of failure are scrubbed — actual failure in reality becomes the indubitable conclusion on the ground. Stupid to the end.

Posted by: anna missed | Nov 10 2004 20:07 utc | 5

What kind of documents? Why, something like Mohammed Atta’s perfectly conserved passport on the top of the smoking pile of ashes that was the WTC.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Nov 10 2004 20:10 utc | 6

what is iraq now other than a slaughterhouse
b real – beautiful small article by eduardo galeano in courier diplomatique – re optimism for his country – anna missed – something i’m not – succint
& at the risk of being boring – i don’t see any fundamental difference betwween the ‘police actions’ of the eisatzgruppen in the east & the american army in iraq, no difference at all
as b says – america out of iraq
still steel

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 10 2004 20:23 utc | 7

what is iraq now other than a slaughterhouse
and elsewhere, it seems: Ivory Coast

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 10 2004 20:33 utc | 8

try again

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 10 2004 20:35 utc | 9

Friend of mine who writes opeds for the local paper that are unfriendly to the prowar crowd has been variously threatened and just today arrived home to find a large rock thrown through his living room window.
It will become more and more viscious here as the economy and war worsen.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 10 2004 20:41 utc | 10

If anyone had any doubts about the intentions of the Bush Administration, that Alberto Gonzalez was named as the new Attorney-General should remove them. He is of course the White House lawyer who described the Geneva Conventions as “quaint” and who provided the legal rationale for torturing detainees at Guantanamo. We now have our own Hans Frank. This is the man who will become the chief law enforcement officer of the United States, the head of the “Justice” Department. I wonder when they’ll rename it the Ministry of Love?

Posted by: Aigin | Nov 10 2004 20:45 utc | 11

for x and other thoughtful christians here:
At the risk of repetition, can someone mollify my concern that transcendentalism–which appeals to a non-human authority in the creation of human history–should no less terrify us non-believers even when the word of the divine seems to justify something like ‘liberation theology’?
I want to stress that even a theology that seems to confirm my hip politics is still worrisome because the political confidence remains not an artifact of rational political deliberation, but the pronouncement of angels.
“modern reality is a reality of decreation, in which our revelations are not the revelations of belief, but the precious portents of our own powers”(Wallace Stevens).

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 10 2004 20:51 utc | 12

Never thought I’d turn so pleadingly to the great modernists to defend secularism. I was wrongly impressed the battle was fought and won by Madison et al.
Fucking silly me.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 10 2004 20:53 utc | 13

Hi slothrop. I’d love to engage in a discussion of such kind that would help or that you are interested in, but we’re going to have to start with simpler language (for me, anyway). First of all, transcendentalist is a word that is part of one tradition we’d kind of have to narrowly define, etc. Why not start simple? Why not state in very simple language (for me) what it is exactly you are fearful of?

Posted by: x | Nov 10 2004 20:59 utc | 14

and speaking of Phantoms
Mike Davis who seems to have inherited Twain’s Pen Warmed Up In Hell, records an interview with four horsemen.
which reminds me of a t shirt design reported to me, not yet sighted in person: Never Change Horsemen in Mid-Apocalypse.

Posted by: DeAnander | Nov 10 2004 21:12 utc | 15

Re – Côte d’Ivoire
This week’s Canard Enchainé says (and, as always, they have a very high level of credibility on these things) that Chirac pretty much gave the green light to Gbagbo, the President, to attack the rebels, and everybody expected him to beat them up sufficiently that he could have claimed victory and France would have validated the “fait accompli”. Sadly, out of pure bad luck, they bombed the French troops instead of the nearby rebel camp. Chirac got mad, ordered the destruction of Gbagbo’s air force, triggering the anti-French riots and the current mess.
Côte D’Ivoire is the sad story of politicians using the national/ethnic card to grab power and being overtaken by the forces they have unleashed. (That was in the vacuum left after Houphouet-Boigny, president for the previous 30+ years, died in 1993; the most credible candidate for president then was Mr Ouattara, a former IMF vice-chairman, a candidate appreciated by most, but sadly of non-ivoirian origins (the country escapes me now). his opponent, Conan Bedie, created the concept of “ivoirité” to oppose him and this led to the various recent failed elections, coup attempts, and civil war between the North and south.)
It’s pathetic, and it’s all the worse that the country was reasonably well run and prosperous until then (at least by the standards of Africa).
France, as the former colonial power, and in the context of “Francafrique” (the incestuous relationships between France’s political leaders from both sides of the aisle and African leaders, including a lot of dubious money flying around to finance frenhc political campaigns after a “tour” in Africa) was never in a really confortable position to choose between its various protégés.
The claims that it is a US plot are dubious. The anti-French demonstrators in the country use pro-americna slogans to show that they are anti-French, but i doubt that it goes much further. In any case, there is no oil in Côte d’Ivoire…

Posted by: Jérôme | Nov 10 2004 21:17 utc | 16

Unverified — I don’t watch b’cast tv let alone Faux News, but saw this report over at WRH (that somewhat seedy bar in a rougher part of town): READER: I turned on the Fox War Channel around 7 AM this morning to see what kind of war propaganda was being orchestrated from the White House today and sure enough, the FWC reporter in Iraq was literally describing the fighting in Fallujah as “the superbowl of the war on terror.”
well, that made me feel literally ill…

Posted by: DeAnander | Nov 10 2004 21:17 utc | 17

Never Change Horsemen in Mid-Apocalypse.
THAT`S a good one!

Posted by: b | Nov 10 2004 21:21 utc | 18

Jerome
I was deported from Côte d’Ivoire… but’s that’s another story………

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Nov 10 2004 21:22 utc | 19

hmmmmm. I assume that religion belives that god runs the show. At the very leat god confers approval of this or that behavior in humans. I don’t demand some complicated exegesis about christianity here. I’m just trying to zero in on what I think is terrifying to people like me that the country is divided between persons who believe in enlightenment, and everyone who believe in the easter bunny (no offense intended; it’s just what it feels like now).
sooo. I’m not reassured that christianity accommodates enlightenment EVEN WHEN RELIGION SEEMS TO JUSTIFY LIBERATION THEOLOGY, ETC. One can throw down with the cool cats in the Age of Reason, and still value god’s word more than the sinuous consensus-building among us mere mortals. That the deliberation of humans and the exercize of reason occasionally verifies the word o0f god, does not convince me that the unreason of religion deserves a hearing in any place that condescends uitsel to be democratic.
I don’t know how to say this in a better way, so I’ll append a longish letter from a colleague of mine who unpleasantly forced me to think about the easter bunny believers:
Dear friends:
Some of you know that I’m on leave and finishing a book for — it turns out — a big evangelical Christian publishing house. …it’s about my struggle, as a Christian, to learn how to pray. Tyndale is calling it a prayer memoir.
Having grown up, like many African Americans, in a strict, church-going family, and now as a “Bible-believing” — as the evangelicals like to say — Christian, I am riveted by the new interest in evangelical thinking. While I didn’t vote for Bush (most African Americans didn’t, but that’s a topic for another discussion), I understand the experience of being part of a group that others don’t understand. In fact, however, isn’t evangelical fervor distinctly American, a natural extension of the moment that religious historians call The Great Awakening (and the follow-up Second
Great Awakening) in the 17th and 18th Centuries? But I believe most undergrad religious-studies courses still describe how these Awakenings — fired by the preaching of Jonathan Edwards, George Whitfield. among others — challenged two key schools of thought: the Calvinistic idea of “divine election” and the scientific and
humanistic ideals of the Age of Enlightenment. In Calvinism, if I remember right, divine election argued that only God could decide who was electable for heaven — and, notably, that God didn’t grant this status to many.
Meanwhile, of course, the bright lights of the Enlightenment held out the significant proposition that man, not unlike God, could also know the secrets of a scientific universe. In the 1700s and 1800s in America, among this nation’s inhabitants — many living in far-flung and isolated circumstances, far from European-style city churches, surviving by their own strength and wits in harsh circumstances — these various church and scientific arguments held little currency or relevancy. Instead, the descendents of lapsed Puritans and lapsed Calvinists were worried more about where to find the next meal in the wilderness. If they didn’t survive, and their destiny was the burning hell promised by Calvinism, what hope did they have?
Well, here come Edwards and Whitfield and their ilk, daring to propose that, in fact, any sinner who believed in Jesus could get to know God and get to heaven, too. No fancy church liturgy or doctrine or scientific inquiry were necessary. As the old American hymn goes, just “come to Jesus — just as I am.”
Well, all across the nation, the unchurched fell on this promise like the drowning to fresh water. True, in establishment Protestantism, the “sinners saved by grace” argument was ridiculed as simplistic and maybe anti-canonical. But by then, evangelical fervor was unstoppable and still thrives. In —, at one of the biggest non-denominational “mega” churches in the metro area — the sprawling church building has always been decorated by a HUGE banner spanning the church front: “SINNERS WELCOMED HERE.”
This wording seems unbelievably old-fashioned. And yet on any Sunday, the place is packed. If you could even find a Calvinist church nearby, I dare say a few aged souls might have gathered for a rather dry sermon and liturgical service. At the evangelical Heritage Center, however, the Great Awakening gets played out every day of the week — usually to the tune of some very good American gospel music, in fact — and places like this are jammed with fervent people. Or voters?
I don’t know how many evangelicals voted in past national elections. This time, however, their pastors said go vote and they did. Or when Mel Gibson’s movie, “The Passion” was released — and establishment movie critics and others trashed it, some calling it anti-Semitic, among other criticisms — their evangelical pastors said don’t listen to that establishment nonsense. Besides, we are pro-Israel. So go see the movie. And we know what happened with that.
While I don’t defend this seemingly ‘”sheep-like” behavior, I also deeply understand that for evangelicals, the willingness to “follow” is based on personal experience with the saving grace of a personal God. These folks have brought their broken families — drug-addicted kids, drunken husbands, adulterous wives, bankrupt family finances, and every other aspect of American life damaged by “modern” cultural influences and sometimes by bad personal choices — to the altar in prayer. And, as many would tell you, “God turned my life around.” I can’t count how many times I’ve heard that testimony. I am willing to argue that in many ways evangelicalism is exquisitely America.
It is isolationist, inward-looking, family-centered, anti-establishment and values-loaded. Do we like this picture? Do we understand it? If we don’t, we won’t know our neighbors — let alone the person in the next voting booth.
As for African American churchgoers — who overwhelmingly voted against Bush — evangelicalism gets interpreted not in reaction to modern culture but in what black social scientists have for years called liberation theology. So while some conservative black evangelicals may wring their hands over gay marriage, for example, they may wring them tighter over social injustice, poverty, education and health care inequities, unfair prison sentencing, etc.
The “media elite” are finally paying attention to all of this. But I fear the inquiries will be tainted by bias and mockery. Moreover, few in the media will look to their own role in sustaining religious conservatism. In fact, any alarmist report on a typical nightly news broadcast helps feed evangelical isolationism. Indeed, J-Schools teach the kind of conflict-driven journalism that, in many ways, helps sustain religious conservatism. But how many elite journalists will we ever hear saying that? How many will add “religious difference” to their diversity discussions — and include not just Muslims now, but white evangelical Christians? (Kudos,
however, to PBS for including evangelical pastor Rick Warren in a recent post-election broadcast — presumably because Warren’s hot book, “The Purpose-Driven Life,” has sold some 15 million hard-back copies.)
Finally, to —‘s question, who among Democrats would be a great candidate in 2008? I humbly propose that we Dems look to two of this year’s biggest winners — both people of color, incidentally — to help truly mobilize another big sleeping giant: the ethnic electorate and its allies. Barack Obama trounced the religious conservative Keyes in Illinois. Ken Salazar bested Coors. Obama, in particular, would absolutely ignite Democratic Party passions as a vice presidential candidate and, heck, maybe as the presidential candidate. As for the argument that he doesn’t yet have
“enough” experience, does anybody really believe that George W. Bush has proven it necessary to have experience? As for Hillary in 2008, are Dems prepared for yet another losing candidate?
One final note. During Obama’s acceptance speech after winning his Senate seat, he first thanked his campaign staff. Then, in the next breath, he said: “Let me thank my pastor, Jeremiah A. Wright Jr. of Trinity United Church of Christ…” This is the man supported by 80-plus percent of the electorate in Illinois. Credit him, indeed, for turning a red state blue.
Have a great discussion.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 10 2004 21:29 utc | 20

CP – ?? When? Pourquoi?

Posted by: Jérôme | Nov 10 2004 21:34 utc | 21

slothrop
i am not about to defend the imperial exercises of any county even my beloved france but the comparison with iraq is misplaced. i think mbeki is a good judge of what constitutes an imperial action
& i use the word slaughterhous not out of any rhetorical flight but an attempt to counter the the terrible deceptions of which anna missed speaaks clearly here
i make the comparison with the einsatzgruppen because they are like the american army – not soldiers but common murderers. a miltitary who uses overwhelming force as the americans do have no real intention of hearts or minds – it is simply a minor exercise in genocide
what was essential to the nazi programme in the east was to destroy the cultural base – to destroy it completely – to say to the occupied – your culture, your nation means absolutely nothing to us because it is in essence subhuman. this was double edged because it served to define the occupied to the occupied themselves but it also served as the legitimation of the “killing action” – the first few weeks of the occupation saw a very premeditated & deliberate attemp to completely demolish cultural constructs & since then there have been regular & systematic extermination of iraqui intellectuals. the assassinations are clearly not the work of the resistance & the methodology is consistent with the phoenix programme & i would assume it has a contingent mossad links
as deanander has pointed out – america considers no other dead than its own & even then it does not really consider them. reading an article by an army doctor in germany saying that there are many many more deaths that are taking place in germany & in america which are not being called combat deaths – but which are combat deaths. his article simply a plea for honesty
again it is an old trick performed earlier in vietnam. bodycounts which are not bodycounts – in the great tradition of westmoreland. the false tears of the cheneybush junta ought to be a national disgrace – they consider not at all the realities of their soldiers & again the vietnam war & every ‘military’ action since then has proved that – they do not consider any aspect of their soldiers lives seriouslly – even their erstwhile allies like hackworth cannot stomach it. that america can stand the desecration of its own youth is beyond me
their pure hatred of the other has its history, its facts & its resonances. no other world power has som much blood on its hands from so many countries on so many continents. the blood is still on their hands & it will not wash away because its so called journalists & commentators want to forget it
the unites states has so consistently established, supported & armed ‘evil’ regimes that i think it has no moral conscience worthy of that name. it has murdered its way into the 20th & 21th century. our history is stained with the blood of millions of ordinary extraordinary people who had a right to live but who were murdered. the notions america pretends to defend democracy it soiled everywhere
greece, the greece of the colonels, in europe was a sordid, a deeply sordid constructionh of a state of fascism where democracy was first established – what they did in greece & there are many histories should never be forgotten & its poets have remembered . its people have remembered – in europe greece is at the top of the people who detest the policies of america the most because it felt the boot the most. italy, what passed for govt with the christian democrats was a mafiocracy -completely constructed since 1948 by americans – the brothers dulles then being the nascent neoconservatives of their time. i cannot think of them without a deep & utter repugnance. they have corrupted everything they touched & i think europe still suffers from problematics that have their roots in the early postwar period of the marshall plan of buying off nations – of selling off their independance – for all the falseness of de gaulle – on that question he was most clear
their fucking democracy always ends up in murder in one way or another – it is not far from the agenda & europe has not been exceptional in this regard – where it was possible to liquidate its enemies – it did & greece is a perfect example of that
who the fuck are they in their vulgarity to crush what is essential, what is precious in other cultures & they have done this with premeditation & still want to do that today – there is a france today that i did not know twenty years ago or thirty years ago & what smells here can be directly linked to what america has overbearingly done to nations in europe. i have not jérôme’s liberalism in this regard. in the provinces i have witnessed the destruction of communities but here at least communities fight back. this cannot be sd of countries like australia & england where communities are created only for their short term benefits
these utterly despicable people make a mockery of democracy. they have no intention of ‘establishing’ democracy in iraq – they want to establish a reign of terror where murdered constitutes an everyday fact
they want to humiliate & demolish the middle east in the same way that they though they had demolished & humiliated south east asia & latin & central america
as b has noted in another post – gonzales as attorney general is a very precise indication of what they want to do – they want to murder the people of iraq & they want to get away with it
how with any consistency can you have a milosovic before a tribunal without having cheney there also or rumsfield or the whole caravanserai of killers
still steel

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 10 2004 21:38 utc | 22

slothrop, I’m still not quite clear on what you’re trying to ask me (and don’t make a lot of sense of the letter you posted either). But let’s just start in one place: that sort of black and white contradiction you pose as “people who believe in Enlightenment and people who believe in the Easter bunny.” Now, correct me if I’m wrong but it seems to me you’re using the words Enlightenment to refer to atheists and Easter Bunny to refer to people who believe there exists a deity of some sort. Is that correct?
Here is a definition of The Enlightenment from dictionary.com:
“Enlightenment A philosophical movement of the 18th century that emphasized the use of reason to scrutinize previously accepted doctrines and traditions and that brought about many humanitarian reforms.”
Now, are you trying to tell me that all those individuals who shaped this movement and over the past few centuries have been its inheritors all rejected the notion that there could exist a Deity? That belief in a God is incompatible with faith in logic somehow? Do you think that theologians don’t use logic, reason, rationality and an encyclopedic knowledge and study of philosophy to scrutinize doctrines, or perhaps did not do so for hundreds of years before the Enlightenment? Or do I misunderstand you?

Posted by: x | Nov 10 2004 21:41 utc | 23

again i apoligise for my incoherences but not my arguments – i’m still quite ill & i try to write the post in one moment – to concentrate energies that the diabetes seems to attack – so if i do not pay attention to my language it is not out of a lack of respect for it – there are some here who have renewed my faith(s) in the english language – but i do not use it very much
still steel

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 10 2004 21:43 utc | 24

apoligise for my incoherences but not my arguments
ditto.
Thanks for all clarifications of the West African scene.
Also, apologies for broaching the religious thing again. Those of you not living in the u.s. perhaps do not realize how in-your-face religion is after the ‘mandate.’
x: here’s wills’ piece that perhaps does a better job: Enlightenment Went Out.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 10 2004 22:03 utc | 25

Jerome
1999……………. nothing sinister……….just checked the consul in Tanzania, yeah no problem………. just get your visa in Abidjhan when you arrive……….. “No VISA” get out……….. tried to bribe to passport official…….. marched back on the Ethiopian Airlines plane to Nairobi via every fucking city in N/E Africa.
Altitude in Nairobi didn’t help on my fucked up state on arrival.

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Nov 10 2004 22:07 utc | 26

what they did in greece & there are many histories should never be forgotten and that was Johnson, n’est-ce pas? — a Democrat? wasn’t he the one who insulted and threatened the Greek ambassador, or was it even the Greek premier…?
ah yes — it takes a little googling but my memory does serve me:

In order to bring the junta to power, which would provoke a Turkish invasion of Cyprus, the U.S. had to drive away the parliamentary government of Greece. What follows is part of Greek (and U.S.) history: In June 1964, President Lyndon Johnson “invited the Prime Ministers of Greece and Turkey to Washington. In a brief private meeting with Prime Minister [George] Papandreou [father of Andreas], he talked of partitioning Cyprus. Papandreou said that even if he agreed with partition, he could never get the Greek Parliament to accept partition. ‘Maybe Greece should rethink the advisability of a Parliament which could not take the right decisions,’ Lyndon Johnson replied. Papandreou was weary after the meeting…. He left for Greece with the feeling that his days in power were numbered.”
In Washington, meanwhile, Dean Acheson was appointed by Lyndon Johnson as a mediator in the Cyprus dispute. Acheson produced a plan…. Alecos Matsas, the Greek Ambassador, was called by the White House. Lyndon Johnson listed the conditions of Acheson’s plan. ‘As Prime Minister Papandreou told you,’ said Ambassador Matsas, ‘no Greek Parliament could accept such a plan. At any rate, the Greek constitution does not allow a Greek government to give away a Greek island.’ ‘Then listen to me, Mr. Ambassador,’ said Lyndon Johnson, ‘fuck your Parliament and your Constitution. America is an elephant. Cyprus is a flea. Greece is a flea. If those two fleas continue itching the elephant, they may just get whacked by the elephant’s trunk, whacked good.'”17
[…]
The leaders of the 1967 coup in Greece were three military officers: Papadopoulos, Pattakos, and Makarezos who governed from 1967 to 1973. After the uprising of the students in 1973, they were removed by their U.S. patrons and the dictatorship was assigned to Ioannidis, the brutal military torturer. After the “replacement” of the dictatorship by the parliamentary government of Karamanlis, all were condemned to death as traitors. A few minutes after the announcement of the death penalty Karamanlis commuted the death penalty to life in prison.
Papadopoulos, a CIA agent since the early 1950s, stayed in prison unrepentant for almost 25 years and died in the summer of 1999. Pattakos and Makarezos, now in their early 80s, got out of prison more than five years ago for reasons of health. Ioannidis, also unrepentant, remains in prison.

Article on Cyprus and US spookwork from Covert Action website.

Posted by: DeAnander | Nov 10 2004 22:08 utc | 27

slothrop, not to rain on the parade or anything, but I’ve read Wills’ piece and I still don’t understand your concern, so I’m going to ask you again to just spit it out in absolute colloquial language and be as specific as you can to your personal concerns. First of all, I flatly reject the notion that logic or reason is incompatible with a belief in the existence of deity (historical figures enough to disprove that, let alone a visit to any modern high institution of academia). Anyway, Wills’ piece is about Bush and his more extreme religious supporters. So again, you’ve got to tell me what it is you are afraid of. Preferably by giving me a specific example. How about Obama? Does he make you fearful in some way you can tell me specifically about?

Posted by: x | Nov 10 2004 22:10 utc | 28

thanks dea
naomi klein says:
With all the millions spent on “democracy-building” and “civil society” in Iraq, it has come to this: If you can survive attack by the world’s only superpower, you get to cast a ballot. Fallujans are going to vote, goddammit, even if they all have to die first
still steel

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 10 2004 22:27 utc | 29

x:
Yes, religion is anti-modern. I applaud your careful balance of the two and believe that such a balance is possible among such intelligent persons as yourself. But this is a rare accomplishment. I’m sympathetic w/ Asimov’s view that religion is the biggest problem. For your significant religious devotion, little false-consciousness is suffered by you. For so many others, religion is their opium.
I praise your efforts to proselytize a christianity that accommodates modernity, and I’m not so stupid to believe that reason itself suffers its own terrible reifications (“technocratic consciousness”), but, x, you do realize that religion is a very difficult friend of the enlightenment?
I’d rather take the easy route and encourage everyone I know to steer clear of religion. Please, no offense intended. I respect your grand efforts to retain your beliefs. I just wonder whether it is worth it.
Again, apologies for saying anything about religion. I made a similar mistake some time ago when I said misguided things about Bruce Springsteen. Perhaps I am as wrong now as then!

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 10 2004 22:29 utc | 30

weird. last night i was reading an essay by William Blum that touched on Bush’s NED speech last Nov :

In the speech, he likened the battle against Iraqi insurgents to fighting against communism, “as in the defense of Greece in 1947.” Do you know what happened in Greece in 1947? There was a civil war. One side had amongst its prominent leaders people who had supported the Nazis in the world war, including those that actually fought with them. On the other side were people who had fought against the Nazis, and had actually forced them to leave Greece. Guess which side the United States supported back then? Of course, the fascists. And this is what George Bush tells us is an inspiration for fighting the Iraqi resistance.

Posted by: b real | Nov 10 2004 22:29 utc | 31

x- I can’t speak for slothrop, but I understand what he’s saying.
In fact, one of the great Christian thinkers (although the evangelicals wouldn’t claim him) said exactly the same thing:
faith is absurd.
this comes from a believer, Kierkegaard. have you read Fear and Trembling? I recommend it, if you haven’t.
Kierkegaard was reacting to the high church of reason led by Hegel, but what he has to say about Christianity is brilliant, whether you are a religious person or not.
So the problem with the knowledge that faith is absurd, or “the belief in things unknown” to paraphrase the Bible, is that it is a horrible basis for policy decisions.
And yes, Voltaire, high priest of the Enlightenment, was an atheist.
Deists, our founding fathers, did not believe in a god that personally intervened in people’s lives…the idea was of a god as the creator who then left it to humans to figure out how to live in this world. There was no “intercession” to fix problems.
therefore, to claim that god is in any way involved in govt is a slap in the face to the enlightenment thinking of the founders of our form of govt…no matter if the appeal is to a right wing or a left wing god.

Posted by: fauxreal | Nov 10 2004 22:38 utc | 32

Hi again, slothrop 🙂 I see we have made no progression on what it is you fear from religious people (I am teasing you gently here).
Well, let me start on the question of what it means to be religious in the first place. From my perspective it does not mean to blindly follow what some authority tells me I must believe. But then again, and I thank you for your recognition that philosophies and beliefs that purport to be wholly rational are also some of the most atrocious facilitators of horrors of the 20th century — like the Nazis who claimed to be wholly rational (and rejected the wimpy compassion of Christianity). Nor are atheist belief systems unsusceptible to wholesale belief and blind following of false prophets and wolves in sheep’s clothing who lead to the slaughter of millions. We have all-too-clear examples of that as major figures of the 20th century.
For my part I can tell you that my faith is in love and compassion. Indeed, my belief is that deity embodies these things. So, if I tell you that love and compassion should guide my reason then are you going to be afraid of me? Are you going to tell me I am not “modern?” What I see going on in Iraq is wholesale waste and destruction, done in a futile cause for anything but the goals of waste, destruction and chaos, and these things are utterly against my religious values. I can tell you that I believe our policies are based wholly on fear and on the manipulation of fears in the population. Fear is a value expressly stated in the NT as being antithetical to love.
1 John 4:18 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
Does this belief system seem unmodern to you? That faith in love and compassion and a rejection of values and actions based wholly on fear should be something I have faith in? On the contrary, I find it much more of a foundation of strength than believing in anything a political platform, a philosophy, or even a “religion” or will tell me. These are the things that shape my inner life, the “kingdom of God” that is within me. Call it conscience or what you will — it is something I believe is far more real than all the arguments the world can make for pragmatism and “logic” (like I have to be afraid because “what if there are WMDs and what if they use them… ” etc etc etc)

Posted by: x | Nov 10 2004 22:45 utc | 33

Religious fundamentalism is not merely the offspring of America’s “Jerusalem on a Hill” history. It is also a new phenomenon sprung from the aridity of how we teach our students to be Enlightened.
Economics, as taught in the U.S., is an ideology perfectly designed to tap into youthful uncertainties about ‘adult life’ and so demoralize the students. I had the fortune to take Intro. Econ. under Marty Feldstein, and every damnable assumption in that class was a recipe for how to think like a sociopath. I am sure that if one were to persist long enough, one would be allowed to think like a human being again, but at what cost? For everyone else, learning economics is essentially learning that it’s every man for himself, the hindmost deserve to be eaten. Short version: any form of love is simply a delusion.
The conservatives believe this, and Christian fundamentalism is the logical response. If you want love, but its only available irrationally, you must reject Enlightenment rationalism and embrace religious irationalism. Once you accept standard, sellout economics, this is the only possibility to claim your soul. So before you attack the churches, remember the amorality of the professors who encourage despair so they can claim the privileges of being masters of the game.
There’ smore to say, but I am late – sorry for the no edit.

Posted by: Citizen | Nov 10 2004 22:46 utc | 34

fauxreal, Citizen: thanks for your responses — I direct you to mine, which I believe addresses the points you both have made.

Posted by: x | Nov 10 2004 22:47 utc | 35

DeAnander @ 4:12
Never Change Horsemen in the Middle of an Apocalypse.

Posted by: beq | Nov 10 2004 22:50 utc | 36

PS If you wish to tell me that faith that compassion and love and mercy are not the best guideposts to good governance, community life and social systems (and personal conduct), then I would have to say that I find that irrational and illogical and not supported by empirical observance. Faith and reason go hand in hand. I call that “truth.”

Posted by: x | Nov 10 2004 23:00 utc | 37

whoops… meant to say these things quite clearly are rationally a better system of conduct IMO and borne out by empirical observation…

Posted by: x | Nov 10 2004 23:01 utc | 38

fauxreal, you wrote:
“Deists, our founding fathers, did not believe in a god that personally intervened in people’s lives…the idea was of a god as the creator who then left it to humans to figure out how to live in this world. There was no “intercession” to fix problems. ”
Well, I can tell you that if you read, for example, Orthodox theologians on the crucifixion, they will tell you the same thing. God cannot compel human beings to love him — including following the precepts of love, etc. This is a foundation of Orthodox theology. It is part and parcel of the question of why evil is allowed to exist by a God that is “good” which was discussed on this site a few days ago.

Posted by: x | Nov 10 2004 23:05 utc | 39

For me, as I’ve written before, the biggest problem with religion in public life (it’s not a problem in private life, quite the contrary) is that it brings into the debate absolutes, whether the concept of God (all powerful), ot good-vs-evil, Heaven vs Hell, etc. This is not helpful. Bring in absolutes, and you INEVITABLY bring along ” the end (absolute) justifies the means”, “with-us-or-without-us”, etc… which are so dangerous as political tools and as ways to run society in general. Religion – but this is also true of any strong ideology, as communism as shown – is a very potent political tool to channel energies you way by showing the ultimate prize at the “end”, and thus enrolling everybody towards that goal.
So I am vehemently hostile to any role for religion in politics. Religion – or similar absolutist ideologies, while a force for cohesion in many societies, has been the cause of the greatest massacres in human history.
Now, as a private matter, I have no problem with religion. It is a (usually) coherent ensemble of moral values, it provides an acceptable answer to the metaphysical questions we all have and it can provide peace and serenity to those that have the faith. In a way, I am envious of people that find their inner peace that way – I cannot (too many unanswered questions for me, too many doubts), but I respect the fact that they do – so long as they do not try to impose their faith on me. Values and morality are for me a question of personal – individual – responsibility. If you get there via religion, that’s great – as long as you get there, you are coherent in your acts and your beliefs, and don’t impose these values on others.

Posted by: Jérôme | Nov 10 2004 23:06 utc | 40

Need I add that my religion calls upon me to have compassion for the suffering of others? Now how do you think that informs me about what I see in Iraq and its results? Is that rational? What basis or values excluding such considerations would you prefer even a politician to make decisions upon?

Posted by: x | Nov 10 2004 23:10 utc | 41

PPS again (I promise I’ll stop now!) as for being not modern I can tell you that considerations of mere fashion make no dent on me whatsoever, and I feel they are not worthy of taking seriously.

Posted by: x | Nov 10 2004 23:12 utc | 42

x
love and compassion. yes i think we are talking on the same grounds here. i still look to christianity for its challenges to articulate and understand this as a flawed humen being. but i’ve also found a lot in buddhism (compassion?), which shocked me at first, felt like invalid competition, but people find their way to solid ground from many sources.
best clue for me is that i still find myself looking at jesus and God as if they were some sort of magic beings – and increasingly that seems like the source of moments when i turn off my own judgment as i still seem to tend to do… perhaps more subtly than before.

Posted by: Citizen | Nov 10 2004 23:12 utc | 43

b real
ever since i was a child i have witnessed the desecration of human life by the united states. since i was a teen i have been actively involved in anti imperialist struggles. it has touched me in a very human way. what was wrong then is wrong today. it is deeply wrong.
i thought that in the midst of life i would see a world set to rights but the opposite has occurred. the only continent to give hope in this moment is that continent cleansed of some of its best children. the people of latin america. these people demonised, ridiculed, humiliated extinguished & exterminated have risen with powerful & honest voices in chile in venuezala, in urugauy, in argentina, in brazil, in el salvador, in bolivia this most beautiful people are honoring the history that america tried to wipe off the map with the psychotic politics od successive american administrations. their history has much to offer & to teach us
as do the greeks – they have fought for their liberty & have had it crushed numerous times by the americans – it is no accident that in latin america & in greece – was founded the new song movement – & poerful merging of traditional culture & modernity by vicotr jara, nicona parra & violetta parra, the marvellouse mercedes sosa, in greece maria farandouri, georgie dalaras, mikis theodorakis & hajidakis & many more who gave me the meaning of a real culture when i though it had dissapeared altogether
while i respect x love for steppenwolf – it was this movements utter reality that it could best be expressed in song – i remember an old saying from that time – ” i have read your manifesto with great interest but it says nothing about dancing”
i am not a utopian but i remember well the words of che guevara ” that at the risk of seeming ridiculous i think a revolutionary must be moved by a great sense of love” – which in reality is only a conversion of what jose marit sd that the dignity of an artist is found when he feels on his own cheek the slap that has been received by another
it is no mistake that the movements for change in nearly every culture have been moved by love not by bitternesss – that too is true of south africa, the great giap himself wrote & read poetry to his troops – they were not alientated from themselves – on the contrary – all evidence would suggest that they were incredibly integrated human beings who survived annhilation
i see no love in americas politics. i sense jealousy. greed. the most childish forms of vengeance. bitterness – a bitterness they have no right to – i deal every day with the damned of the earth & i have never witnessed bitterness. on the contrary in the dark times it is these people who have given me hope – who have led me in song
i remember the fisrt time i was hit was at a screening of the film of costas gavras “z” & i was repeatedly hit with an iron bar by a greek fascist because i was a public friend of greek communists. these people taught me love. they taught me my art. they also taught me the pleasure of eating – of sharing at every level
again i was involved with the struggle against pinochet just after sept 11 1973 & these people who had been so recently violated by america gave love – gave what power they had to those who did not know of their history
these people have always shared – it is a part of their struggle & has always been so – at that level – there has always been an integration of a better human being
it is not an abstraction to me – i have lived it
i have lived on the opposite side of wherever anna missed was & perhaps it is not so odd that we find an affinity here at moon – because we could given the coincidence of this world killed each other. & from that place in the mifddle of a war of unutterable brutality the vietnames created things of beauty. if you understand the strategies of the great giap – it has less to do with orthodox military strategy than it does with poetry. a poetry that is still in my bones. & a poetry i am glad to have in this world that bush has created. if that poetry had not been there i would have ened up a compfortable nihilist as o’rourke & hitchens self evidently are – i pity them for their fortresses of falsity they have created in the paper walls of the slaughterhouse they have helped to construct
there is a great poem by the greek poet yannis ritsos – grecité – greeceness if you like that theodorakis turned into popular song & that filled the streets of greece until the american supported dictatorship fell
& i am always reminded of the words of victor jara – singing as he did beofe he died :
there are ten thousand of us here
in this stadium
ten thousand hand which plant seeds
& make the factories run
how much humanity
exposed to cold, hunger panic, pain
moral pressures terror & insanity
six of us were lost as if into starry space
one dead another beaten
as i could never have believed a human being
could be beaten
how much horror the face of fascism creates
they carry out their plans
with knife like precision
nothing matters to them
to them
blood equals medals
slaughter an act of heroism
but then suddenly my conscience awakes
& i see this tide of murder
has no heartbeat
just the military showing their midwives faces
full of sweetness….
how hard it is to sing
when i must sing of horror
horror which i am living
horror which i am dying
so many moments of sorrow
when silence & screams
are the end of my song
what i see i have never seen
what i felt & what i feel now
will give birth to the moment
i remember this song imperfectly & hope someone can find it on internet – written in santiago stadium – where he was slaughtered under the direct instructions of the american experts
victor jar of chile
lived like a shooting star
he fought for the people of chile
with his hands & his guitar
& his hands were gentle
his hands were strong
how sad that the resonances of jara are to be felt today in the bloody streetes of iraq & our future
fuck american military power, now & forever
still steel

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 10 2004 23:13 utc | 44

x
well said.
now, I need you to deprogram the christians in my family.

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 10 2004 23:16 utc | 45

And could you deprogram the economists in mine?

Posted by: Citizen | Nov 10 2004 23:25 utc | 46

slothrop, thanks 🙂
I would do it gladly if I could. Believe you me. I just wonder how total failure cannot eventually disillusion people. Witness Iraq. As far as I am concerned it will be nothing but absolute, total failure. In the end it is unChristian in its expression of blind, coercive material power and the faith it expresses in that. But faith in compassion is all about the inner life and opening up the heart and not blindly following a group.
I think there’s a lot of truth in a rant I read recently in the blogosphere somewhere about people needing to identify with the powerful, with bullies, etc. For me, the whole story, or myth if you will, of that crucifixion (and frankly the story of the OT and Jews in captivity) is the story that material realities of power and status are not true determiners of worthiness, essential truth or true values. Fitting into the group, the elite, the approved, the elect, we can read clearly in that story or that myth, hasn’t necessarily anything to do with what is true or valuable. This is one of the most difficult obstacles, it seems to me, for a truly religious person to overcome.
Citizen: Ever read Thich Nhat Hanh? He says that Buddhahood and the Holy Spirit are the same thing. Again, I have to say that modern theologians (even the Orthodox whom I mention because after all they date themselves to the earliest patristics) claim that truth, wherever it is found, whether or not it is in a person who has ever heard of Jesus Christ, or those who lived in pre-Christian times, is still a reflection of that Person who is Truth and should be valued every bit as much. (Figure that one out – talk about faith in absolutes as concepts) 🙂

Posted by: x | Nov 10 2004 23:29 utc | 47

citizen, I have a few economists in mine, and I argue about this stuff all the time! 😉

Posted by: x | Nov 10 2004 23:30 utc | 48

rememberinggiap
Words fail me reading your post. I knew all this vaguely, and I planned to graduate and enter the foreign service because i grew up thinking that US Latin American policy was misplaced Cold War fear that could be cured with more and better expertise. i had to quit that plan when learned more about the foreign service.
what the hell did Jonah do those 40 days inside Leviathan?

Posted by: Citizen | Nov 10 2004 23:33 utc | 49

rgiap:
pow, pow, bam
rose water lotus petals
slam
knock me out, brother

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 10 2004 23:35 utc | 50

oh yeah, me again (I promise I’ll stop after this one) as you can see, following any person or authority blindly is something I would never believe in. In that we all have common ground, I think. It has to be real for me otherwise I chuck it. And FWIW, nothing is written in stone. Tomorrow I could change my mind about something, or grow to understand something new, and it will change my whole perspective. But that again is part of the road of faith, esp. if you read Christian mystics. It’s more about what I don’t know than what I know. And that’s another big error of the fundies.
Okay I’m done preaching. Promise. For me it’s personal, like Jerome says.

Posted by: x | Nov 10 2004 23:35 utc | 51

rgiap – do these lyrics help?
Victor – An Unfinished Song
Victor Jara
i will seek out the others you mention. much thanks.

Posted by: b real | Nov 10 2004 23:42 utc | 52

giap — they played Theodorakis’ Romiosini (“Greekness”) at the opening of the Olympics this summer. Travelling in Greece, I once heard someone say that Christ was the “most socialist” person who ever lived (and meant it as great praise). I wonder what the fundies would have to say about that. The Greek point of view is somewhat different. 🙂

Posted by: x | Nov 10 2004 23:56 utc | 53

ô thank you b real
have not seen this text for many years – has a special resonance because i read it often to many many public – but also a resonance in relation to what x is saying
but it is so extraordinary – to finish your days giving hope –
There are five thousand of us here
in this small part of the city.
We are five thousand.
I wonder how many we are in all
in the cities and in the whole country?
Here alone
are ten thousand hands which plant seeds
and make the factories run.
How much humanity
exposed to hunger, cold, panic, pain,
moral pressure, terror and insanity?
Six of us were lost
as if into starry space.
One dead, another beaten as I could never have believed
a human being could be beaten.
The other four wanted to end their terror
one jumping into nothingness,
another beating his head against a wall,
but all with the fixed stare of death.
What horror the face of fascism creates!
They carry out their plans with knife-like precision.
Nothing matters to them.
To them, blood equals medals,
slaughter is an act of heroism.
Oh God, is this the world that you created,
for this your seven days of wonder and work?
Within these four walls only a number exists
which does not progress,
which slowly will wish more and more for death.
But suddenly my conscience awakes
and I see that this tide has no heartbeat,
only the pulse of machines
and the military showing their midwives’ faces
full of sweetness.
Let Mexico, Cuba and the world
cry out against this atrocity!
We are ten thousand hands
which can produce nothing.
How many of us in the whole country?
The blood of our President, our compañero,
will strike with more strength than bombs and machine guns!
So will our fist strike again!
How hard it is to sing
when I must sing of horror.
Horror which I am living,
horror which I am dying.
To see myself among so much
and so many moments of infinity
in which silence and screams
are the end of my song.
What I see, I have never seen
What I have felt and what I feel
Will give birth to the moment…
Estadio Chile
September 1973
& b real there is a poem one of the last by neruda – written n the last months before he too was murdered – again i can only remember a few lines but again a resonance with today
“i don’t want my country divided
there is enough here for us…
i remember it as an equisite plea from a man who fought his life for a free chile to see it flower & then to watch what the americans with kissinger directly involved did to his most magnificent country
still steel

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 10 2004 23:56 utc | 54

x
yes that is the poem song – there is a documentary in another stadium in the days after the dictatorship fell where theodorakis & a number of singers then the whole crowd sing it – just thinking of it -gives me shivers
strangely – there is a great theodorakis site coming out of luxembourg – called thoedorakis.com – i think
has his beautiful texts aginst this current war – this big beast of a man – this giant with a broken heart keeps on giving – interesting to note – that being one of the most vocal in greece against the war in iraq – he was demonised by shaorn & co as being an anti semite – & this a man who wrote ‘six songs from mauthausen’ perhaps one of the greatest song cycles ever
x i don’t have this song with me – can’t find it here in france for a long time – it is such a majestic song – hope they ddn’t fuck it up in the olympics – they wanted to silence him during that & he has also been very ill
still steel

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 11 2004 0:04 utc | 55

@x as you know even better than I, I’m sure, there are many distinct threads in what is called Christianity — ranging from the monotheistic primitive-Statism which repeatedly calls Jesus “Prince” and “King” [the attempt to fit him into the royal house of David and a specifically nationalist-revanchist myth of redemption and revenge on the occupiers]; all the borrowings from the Mithra cults and similar… what we go about calling “Christianity” is a palimpsest of mutually contradictory stories and aspirations, which perhaps explains its Protean ability to fit into any ideological mould and be wielded for every purpose. the Christianity that you’re defending, i.e. your own and that of exemplary, humane, tolerant, wise and gentle co-religionists, is not the only “Christianity” that can get in the door if the separation of Church and State is abandoned. it is a cordon sanitaire which I for one wish very much to preserve.
I share slothrop’s fears, iow. the only grounds I understand for wise decision-making are empirical: the assessment of facts — experiment and result. “Doctor, it hurts when I do that — so, don’t do that.” whenever faith (and I don’t care whether it’s faith in God or Marx or Friedman) is allowed to eclipse fact, when real results in the real world are ignored or covered up or denied because they don’t fit the theory — then we are not well served, our errors are not corrected, we drift into denial and fantasy. and we get the IMF resolutely applying the same “medicine” to country after country no matter how many of its “patients” sicken and die. wasn’t that Einstein’s def of madness, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result?
more specifically I have to take exception (as an empiricist) with the suggestion that the Nazi regime somehow embodies a triumph of rationalism. it was in cahoots with nationalist/rightist Christian forces from the beginning (hence the motto “Gott Mit Uns”); it drew heavily on superstition, astrology, and magical spectacle for its ideology and public appeal; and it suppressed objective research, the sciences, etc. with an iron hand. and its ideology of racist mumbojumbo was utterly divorced from fact from the git-go.
the “rationalism” of the Nazis is, I think, the rationalism of psychosis. what I mean is that psychotics are very, very logical — once you accept their initial assumptions, then everything they do makes perfect sense 🙂 often they are more obsessed about consistency and “doing things right” than any so-called sane person. the Nazi horror starts with a psychotic delusion, or rather a whole kit bag of them: a paranoid fantasy about treachery within is required for denial of a genuine crushing defeat in WWI, a twitchy fear of modernity and cosmopolitanism (feminism, gay visibility, class unrest, influx of foreigners and foreign influence, rapid technological development) is compounded with pre-existing racism and parlayed into a grand delusion of racial superiority and a sentimental hankering for the Good Old Days.
the two delusional systems are not merely compatible but synergistic. we need someone to blame for the defeat, we need someone to blame for all this disturbing modernity — and the racial fantasy provides us with a scapegoat. so the whole thing starts from a ground position of absurd reality-denial: like some dangerous psychotic individuals, the psychotic State moves logically and obsessively in its attempt to force the world to conform to its fantasy.
but this is not rationality. the trappings of scientism in which the Nazis dressed their delusions are terrifying but, had less evil and torment resulted, they would have been as pathetic as the (imho somehow related) elaborate calculations of Ptolemaists, the pseudo-quantitative charting of astrologers, the obsessive reams of numerology cranked out by Baconians, Kabbalists and the like (and in these ranks I include the elaborate mathematical absurdities of the Chicago School of econ).
the human brain is wired for taxonomy, and apparently for counting and numbering (pace for the moment the “innumerate tribe” researchers), and these faculties can be bent to madness and obsession like any other human faculty. the wiring can go Tilt.
it is particularly chilling to recall or revisit the noxious pseudo-scientism of the Nazi era — the phrenology, the nasal profile measurement charts, the godawful “experiments” (the use of medical experimentation as a good cover story for all-out sadism did not originate, nor did it end with them). it is the shudder that one feels in the presence of intelligent madness, the cheerful common-sense of the mass murder explaining why dismemberment was the sensible thing to do and where he got a good deal on the trash bags.
for me the shudder is the same when I contemplate the perversion of Christian doctrine to justify the torture of the heretic, the enslavement of the indigene, etc. it is, imho no more correct to think that the Nazis — anti-intellectual, censorious, dogmatic, many deeply superstitious — represent “an excess of reason” than to think that the burning, racking, etc. of heretics represent an “excess of love.”
the Nazis mimicked the superficial trappings of modernity, but they rejected and destroyed every aspect of modernity save one: industrial efficiency. which kind of brings us back around….

Posted by: DeAnander | Nov 11 2004 0:15 utc | 56

YIKES! the peril of skipping that last cautious preview! Bernhard, Bernhard, save me!

Posted by: DeAnander | Nov 11 2004 0:17 utc | 57

DeAnander
The rationalism of the Nazis was not true rationalism, but it was disguised as ultimate rationalism — i.e. the terminally sick are going to die anyway, they are a waste of resources to care for them, so we should send them to the camps for the good of the society. Compassion as a virtue, the value of human life in anything but material terms, was rejected. And they did reject Christianity and invent a pseudo-religion of their own based on blood and soil “old German” paganism that was a perversin of symbolism like everything else.
What I have to tell you DeAnander is that even those monastics who call Christ Prince and Lord – meaning that he is above all the Princes and Lords of worldly power, and those who believe absolutely in his relation to David, are still those who believe that compassion and love are what they are called to as the highest form of mystical union with Christ. You read this over and over again in the monastics from the earliest times. And then of course I can direct you to Paul on Love as the highest virtue and the clearest effect of the Spirit on a person, i.e. spiritual rebirth. What I am getting at is that none of these things are necessarily mutually exclusive or contradictory to one another. They can be distorted so that people do exclude one or the other.

Posted by: Anonymous | Nov 11 2004 0:34 utc | 58

I share slothrop’s fears, iow. the only grounds I understand for wise decision-making are empirical: the assessment of facts — experiment and result. “Doctor, it hurts when I do that — so, don’t do that.” whenever faith (and I don’t care whether it’s faith in God or Marx or Friedman) is allowed to eclipse fact, when real results in the real world are ignored or covered up or denied because they don’t fit the theory — then we are not well served, our errors are not corrected, we drift into denial and fantasy.
I agree with this, of course. But on the other hand, I have to ask, what decisions do we make that are purely an assessment of facts we can grasp, or clear experiments and their conclusions of the past. We often must make decisions based on situations we don’t completely understand, facts we can’t know (like the future choice of an opponent). In such cases, in real life, we have to make decisions all the time based on faith in something, because we don’t necessarily know all the facts, we can’t necessarily know for a certainty what outcome something will have, what future thing will happen. So we make choices all the time based on assumptions, faith, values, of whatever kind. Whether they be “religious” or not is another matter.
I was once on a jury and I was asked whether or not I could vote to uphold a law that I thought was immoral or against my conscience. The truth is, though, I think all juries vote anyway on their values, on their personal ethics, no matter what the case is. Life is about uncertainty more than it is about certainty and we all need something to navigate it with — whether that’s prejudice, bigotry, convention, values, compassion, etc etc etc

Posted by: x | Nov 11 2004 0:54 utc | 59

x- If people want to believe in god, however that god is understood to them, is none of my business, and they are welcome to do so, as long as they do not harm other people.
however, when they try to make their beliefs part of my govt, they have crossed the line.
people do not have to believe in god to have mercy or compassion, but those who find these traits through a belief in god are those believers that seem to me to understand what Christianity was supposed to be about.
…and I was well versed in Christianity from an early age, and what I see as passing for Christianity in the conservative movement is heresy, imo.
how do they reconcile the acts of the earliest Christians? how do they reconcile a hateful theology with the example of the first Christians who gave away all they owned and served the poor and sick? how do they reconcile their hatred of homosexuals with Jesus’ example with the lepers? how do they judge and expect not to be judged as wanting in their hatred? how do the Reconstructionists reconcile Peter’s vision and issue that Jesus was the fulfillment of the law, because the law only showed that humans were incapable of perfection, and therefore needed grace? how do they not see themselves as the hypocrites in the temple whom Jesus cast out, by their mixture of faith and politics? how do they reconcile Jesus statement that HIS kingdom was in heaven, not on earth? isn’t it heresy, and wasn’t it also heresy for the Catholics in Europe to attempt to equate earthly power with spiritual power?
anyone who uses faith as a prop to gain power on earth is the most vulgar and despicable sort of human, to me, and if their religion is true, they face a terrifying reckoning.

Posted by: fauxreal | Nov 11 2004 1:31 utc | 60

Fauxreal: It’s far older than Kierkegaard. Tertullian said that about the Christ’s resurrection: It is sure and true because it is impossible.
X: Corinthians. That’s probably the best bit from Paul, and one of the few I actually can suffer. It’s also interesting that he’s explicitly saying that the alleged powers seen at his time, tongues, miracles, prophecies, would come to an end before the end days. This should just put to rest all these cranky televangelists that pretend to cure people just by invoking the name of jeebus, all these Left-behinders that are convinced that W is the Hand of God and that he can cure the disabled people.
“is still a reflection of that Person who is Truth”
Yeah, what do you know. Neo-platonicism, and even original platonicism, isn’t entirely dead. The idea of Truth is up there and reigns supreme 😉
Nazism, a triumph of rationalism? That is a good one. The top levels were a bunch of superstitious cranks, who dealt with various Eastern mystic stuff, were bent on recreating their own wet dream of old Germanic paganism after having subverted Christianism, and had a large range of pretty insane beliefs, some thinking Earth was hollow, other dealing with the cosmic fight of Ice and Fire – which may have helped at the end since they just didn’t worry about the Russian winter that stopped cold their advances in 1941 and 1942. The average grunt was probably not in these weird stuff, but their leaders were. Their aim was the obliteration of Western science because it was Jewish and had to be replaced with an Aryan mystic.
And the exterminations weren’t just done because they didn’t like the looks of Jews, Gypsies, gays, Blacks and Slavs; they really considered them as a genetically sub-species that weren’t really human. That explains that they come to treat them as if they were weeds in the garden.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Nov 11 2004 2:00 utc | 61

Burroughs on christians: “If you’re doing business with a religious son-of-a-bitch, Get it in writing. His word isn’t worth shit.
Not with the good lord telling him how to fuck you on the deal.”
Burroughs on his death-bed: “all that matters is love.”

Posted by: slothrop | Nov 11 2004 2:01 utc | 62

On the argument between Slothrop and X, I have endless things to say. But the only thing I can say with any certainty is that the Enlightenment philosophers struggled endlessly with religion–and not just as an enemy. I would even argue that Voltaire was an exception in regards to his absolutist stance–and, well, I would also argue that Kant, rather than Voltaire, is the philosopher to look to in this particular debate.
One reason I’m moved by Kant is that his ethical system is so binding and so impossible. Even the cold realists would love for his system to be practicable. And so maybe you’ll be happy to hear that over 200 years after he died, Kant was able to shake a religious believer out of dogma and into philosophy.
He’s incredibly hard to excerpt, but here’s one sentence that moves me from (the problematic, but readable) Religion Within the Boundaries of Mere Reason (trans. Wood and Di Giovanni):

For him who penetrates to the intelligible ground of the heart (the ground of all the maxims of the power of choice), for him to whom this endless progress is a unity, i.e. for God, this is the same as actually being a good human being (pleasing to him); and to this extent the change can be considered a revolution.

I think that any serious theologian or philosopher will tell you that the real problems are dogma, censorship, and certitude. Religion, considered broadly, and Enlightenment are not incompatible.
Other sources on the Enlightenment philosophers and religion might include Lessing’s “Testament of St. John,” the biography and early philosophy of William Godwin, Rousseau’s section on “The Savoyard Vicar” in Emile, Mendelsohnn’s philosophy of Jewish Law and state tolerence…
It’s strange. I was in a seminar on “Enlightenment and Religion” on 9-11-2001. I left the building at around 11; it took me until 12 to understand that my city had been shut down. (Like an ass, I heard about the planes and said to myself, well, I still have to write that paper on EP Thompson for 3pm–a class which of course didn’t happen.) Anyway, if you want the syllabus…

Posted by: Jackmormon | Nov 11 2004 4:45 utc | 63

Hi, trying to follow this discussion of religion between slothrop, x, fauxreal and DeAnander. What I see as a focal point is the use by politicians of Christianity, their religion, as a touchstone in government and politics.
By touchstone I mean an anchor made of words that have an emotional attachment such that those familiar with those words, perhaps heard in church, on tv programs or read in books, have an comfortable feeling. I am drawing a distinction between words and ideas here.
1. x says that that type of Christianity is not the true one. I agree.
2. DeAnander says that because of that type, all Christianity and religion should be rejected.
DeAnander, I dearly enjoy it when you share your knowledge and clear thinking with us, however I have to object to your statement above “what we go about calling “Christianity” is a palimpsest of mutually contradictory stories and aspirations” as too quick a put-down of faith as a whole.
I know this idea is not them main thrust of your argument, and that I conflate faith with Christianity.
x does a good job of explaining what faith means, I just want to say that there is more than empiricism — that old joke about theory and practice comes to mind (something about “in theory theory and practice are the same. In practice they are not.”)
Perhaps I am asking for a clarification of your comment about the palimpset of stories, it (Christianity) is of course also a tradition of living, serving and thinking. Did you read about how knowledge was kept in Irish monastaries during the dark ages? “How the Irish Saved Civilization : The Untold Story of Ireland’s Heroic Role from the Fall of Rome to the Rise ofMedieval Europe” (the link is to an audio book version. Cool idea, audio books.)
3. fauxreal says “what I see as passing for Christianity in the conservative movement is heresy” — right on.
So, this thread has percolated and given me some nice ideas. Thanks, all.

Posted by: jonku | Nov 11 2004 4:59 utc | 64

My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.
When I read rememberinggiap’s words, I hear prophecy, a prophecy from love that pronounces my country’s curse.
and the rock cried out, “no hiding place.”

Posted by: Citizen | Nov 11 2004 7:09 utc | 65

Sam Smith today gave us this reminder from a Previous Anticipated Victory:
BUSH’S BUSINESS PLAN FOR IRAQ
http://www.fas.org/sgp/temp/natsios042303.html
SECRECY REPORT – The Bush Administration’s policy of cutting taxes while launching a war in Iraq is extraordinary, but is it unprecedented? Not quite. “It seems hard to believe,” wrote historian Otto Friedrich in a history of Berlin in the 1920s, “but the incredible fact is that Imperial Germany’s conservative finance officials never levied a single mark in extra taxes to pay the gigantic costs of World War I.”
“The German government planned, apparently, to recover its expenses out of the reparations that the enemy would have to pay once Hindenburg and Ludendorff had captured Paris.”
But as it turned out, it was France that ended up demanding reparations from Germany, with fateful consequences, not the other way around.
One recalls the illusory assurances of the Bush Administration that the rebuilding of Iraq would cost American taxpayers a grand total of $1.7 billion. “You’re not suggesting that the rebuilding of Iraq is gonna be done for $1.7 billion?” asked an incredulous Ted Koppel in a 2003 ABC News Nightline interview with Andrew Natsios, then-administrator of the Agency for International Development.
“Well, in terms of the American taxpayers’ contribution, I do – this is it for the US,” Mr. Natsios replied. “The rest of the rebuilding of Iraq will be done by other countries who have already made pledges, Britain, Germany, Norway, Japan, Canada, and Iraqi oil revenues, eventually in several years, when it’s up and running and there’s a new government that’s been democratically elected, will finish the job with their own revenues. They’re going to get in $20 billion a year in oil revenues. But the American part of this will be 1.7 billion. We have no plans for any further-on funding for this.”

Posted by: jj | Nov 11 2004 7:43 utc | 66

Don’t know of Mr Natsios. He still got some sort of a job? Cost of War

Posted by: DM | Nov 11 2004 8:58 utc | 67

A remarkable moving report about a Jihadi from Yemen in Falluja and his reason to fight in WaPo Seeking Salvation In City of Insurgents. It is wirten by Ghaith Abdul-Ahad, friend of blogger Raed and Salam Pax

A year passed. Abu Thar turned 30, and might never have tried to reach Iraq again but for the photographs that emerged of U.S. military police abusing prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison. Seeing the photos, his wife, also a religious student, urged him to leave everything and go to Iraq to fight jihad. She was pregnant with their sixth child.
“She told me, ‘If they are doing this to the men, imagine what is happening to the women now,’ ” Abu Thar recalled. ” ‘Imagine your sisters and I being raped by the infidel American pigs.’ ”

Back at his home, he had a final dinner with his wife and children, who went to bed without being told their father was leaving. “My favorite daughter came and sat in my lap and slept there. She opened her eyes and said, ‘Daddy, I love you.’ ”
He was weeping openly now, a thin man with a thin beard under a ragged tree in a courtyard in Fallujah. “You know these memories are the work of the devil trying to soften my heart and bring me back home,” he said.
He rejected going home with a passion. When a visitor told him, “We will come and see you and your family in Yemen,” the anger in his reply contorted his usually smooth features. “The only place I am going from here,” he snapped, “is heaven.”

He spoke with the calm air of an ascetic. And, indeed, of the 12 fighters in the house, Abu Thar seemed the least martial by far. Some of the men spoke as if they loved death, but he spoke of dying on the battlefield as something more like devotion. To him, martyrdom was the purest way to worship God.
“When I was in Syria, I bought seven copies of this,” he said, pulling a pocket-size copy of the Koran from his jacket. “I wrote the name of my wife and my five children on each and left the seventh empty.”
He said he did not want to impose a name on the child his wife was carrying when he left. But just before he crossed the border from Syria, she called and told him she had given the child a name: Shahid. It means martyr.

Posted by: b | Nov 11 2004 8:59 utc | 68

This thread could well become infinite 🙂
couple of passing thoughts
The rationalism of the Nazis was not true rationalism, but it was disguised as ultimate rationalism — i.e. the terminally sick are going to die anyway, they are a waste of resources to care for them, so we should send them to the camps for the good of the society. Compassion as a virtue, the value of human life in anything but material terms, was rejected.
this to me is merely one aspect of their mimicry of modernity, i.e. industrialism. what is described above is nothing more or less than CBA (cost/benefit analysis), the kabbalistic obsession of the high priests of monetism. cf John Adams’ brilliant essay “And How Much for your Grandmother”, among others. the Nazis attempted to apply Harvard MBA methods to the ugly old human horror of mob violence and genocide. they “rationalised” it. I don’t think this makes them genuinely rational — but then I think that modern economic theory is at least as psychotic as the Nazi behaviour pattern, and its kill rate may not be that much lower.
We often must make decisions based on situations we don’t completely understand, facts we can’t know (like the future choice of an opponent). In such cases, in real life, we have to make decisions all the time based on faith in something, because we don’t necessarily know all the facts, we can’t necessarily know for a certainty what outcome something will have, what future thing will happen.
this is utterly true, and leads us to I think the primary division between faith-based and empirical decision making. in empirical decision making, all decisions are provisional — i.e. there is always the possibility that the decision is wrong. in empirical decision making one does not pray to G-d for guidance, get an inspiration showing what is Right, and then stick to that at all costs — one starts down a path based on the best evidence available, and if the results are not as desired or expected one re-evaluates and corrects course. this is the empiricism that is completely lacking in the policy and politics of hardwired ideologies — be they Christian, Communist, or Capitalist, which leads to what Tuchman called in her eponymous book The March of Folly. when decisions are based on faith (in a theory or an outcome) then it is very hard to revoke them except by abjuring the faith on which they were based. that makes it very difficult to change course or re-evaluate when things are going wrong.
unfortunately it is hard on the human brain and heart to live with uncertainty and provisionality. we don’t live well in Schroediner’s Box, even though it’s our natural habitat. one reason the public likes the Shrub is that he gives the appearance of dead certainty. they would rather follow a leader who looks like he knows where he’s going, strutting out boldly and refusing to ask for directions, than a wise old codger like Gandalf who admits he’s lost, sits down part-way into the mines of Moria, and thinks for long hard hours about the fork in the path ahead. the success of the Rovemeister in painting Kerry as a “flip flopper” illustrates the pathetic human fear of uncertainty or empiricism and the desire for absolute certainty or faith. imho.
now, the finest theologians I’ve ever read (and I do sometimes read ’em) are those who manage to balance faith and doubt, uncertainty against a moral compass, valuing humility over doctrinal certainty. but I think that is about who they are more than about the specifics of what they believe, that is, I have come to a distressing POV over the years — distressing for a weary old ideologue, that is…
… I’ve come to the upsetting notion that people’s goodness and badness, their reasonableness or fanaticism, their kindness or cruelty, fairness or injustice, generosity or greed, isn’t linked neatly and tidily to any specifics of their belief system. what I mean is that no religion, no anti-religion, no single political dogma, offers a sure inoculant against the whispering of the reptilian brain. I think we can make a good guess at which belief systems or political styles actively stoke up, amplify, tickle and encourage the reptilian brain. what’s harder is to figure out how to calm it down.
lastly, the comment that xtianity is a palimpsest of periods, mythologies, etc is one endorsed by most comparative religious scholars. the word “christianity” covers everything from the chilly capitalist Calvinism of the White upper classes to the snake-handling miracle cults of the poverty belt south, from MLK’s gorgeous, heart-true, stirring speeches to Pat Robertson’s hateful rants, from a literal belief in the Virgin Birth and all the other miracle tales, to a highly sophisticated, abstracted Deism, Unitarianism, etc — from icon worship and a roaring trade in bogus relics to the near-Buddhist simplicity of Quakerism — from Jesus’ compassion for Mary Magdalene to Paul’s harsh, hateful misogyny. miracle cult, sophisticated humanist philosophy — “xtianity” stretches so far to cover so many varieties of human personality, so much good and so much wickedness, that it becomes almost meaniingless as a noun.

Posted by: DeAnander | Nov 11 2004 22:31 utc | 69