Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
November 8, 2004
Liberals
Comments

Iranian.com?
What has Doonesbury got to say today?
http://www.uclick.com/client/wpc/db/

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Nov 8 2004 21:54 utc | 1

Regarding the political cartoon: The N word was always a perjorative term. The term liberal has become perjorative because our Dem leaders themselves have disowned it. They buy into the anti-liberal paradigm — and lose the battles that liberals would otherwise win.
Just like they have disowned the married women electorate: they buy into the paradigm that says married women have sold out to domesticity, so they abandon them to the Repubs, who court their vote and get it. The Dems could have addressed the discrimination against married women in the tax code [no, not the bogus ‘marriage tax’, but rather the ‘secondary earner’ category itself]. They could have offered to eliminate it so that married women could return to their careers.
But no. It’s more important to stay on message [attacking republican tax schemes] rather than to confuse voters by offering their own bold tax counter-reforms. Apparently it’s more important to buy into Repub class warfare than to win it. Dems got nothing to offer except complaints. As we have seen, that’s just not good enough. And they lose the class warfare into the bargain.
Same thing about Social Security: it discriminates against at-home moms. Dems don’t pick up on this. No, it’a more important to let the Repubs define the issues. Can’t confuse the voter by offering an alternative to improve Social Security, they’re too busy arguing in Repub-land. And losing the argument because again they’ve got nothing to offer except to defend the current sexist system. That they could have gotten married women on board never occurs to them. To Dems, women aren’t half the population, they’re just a minority group made up of lesbian college students and elderly activists. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, it’s just that liberals cant’ win by writing off the unmet needs of half the electorate.

Posted by: gylangirl | Nov 9 2004 1:07 utc | 2

what a f**k up:

A toy store owner was recently visited by Homeland Security agents. “One of the things that our agency’s responsible for doing is protecting the integrity of the economy and our nation’s financial systems and obviously trademark infringement does have significant economic implications.”
“My first thought was the government can shut your business down on a whim.” … the lead agent asked Cox whether she carried a toy called the Magic Cube, which he said was an illegal copy of the Rubik’s Cube, one of the most popular toys of all time. He told her to remove the Magic Cube from her shelves, and he watched to make sure she complied. … agents went to Pufferbelly based on a trademark infringement complaint … Rubik’s Cube patent had expired, and the Magic Cube did not infringe on the rival toy’s trademark.

Let me restate this: a secret police is protecting profits for corporations. Unbelivable.
That is the ultimate example why the ACLU was so concerned with the Patriot Act and the rest of the anti-terror legislation. It’s so easily abused.

Posted by: MarcinGomulka | Nov 9 2004 1:27 utc | 3

Marcin: No wonder, these bastards are also saying that having an illegal copy of M$ Word is basically akin to flying a plane into the WTC.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Nov 9 2004 1:43 utc | 4

Like I posted Friday over at ASZ, if some right wing asshole screws with me I will kick their ass. That is all they understand because they are not smart enough to think logically. I know I can outsmart them, but logic doesn’t penetrate their thick neanderskulls.
In another life I worked oil rigs, frequented bars and fought when I had to. I am still not to old to kick the shit out some fundie.
We have to get dirty, nasty, and wipe the face of the earth with their republican asses. Thats the way they think of dems. Sean Hannity on friday actually said he would like to see the total extinction of the dem party. Thats how they think. We need to get tough.

Posted by: jdp | Nov 9 2004 2:12 utc | 5

jdp,
Can you give an example of your ‘get tough’ strategy to save the Dems from extinction? [Sounds like just useless macho swagger to me.]

Posted by: gylangirl | Nov 9 2004 2:15 utc | 6

The thing is talking logical is not going to work. I live in a rural area and some people I know will fight you when they are loosing the arguement.
You must understand the mentality before you can defeat them. The Limblowhards and the like blur reality. There was an article on Slate by Jane Smiley that is still on there. Her take is you have to get down and dirty. If that means arguing and fighting to get your point across, so be it.
They want to squash any progressive like a bug. Thats there goal and Rove has said it. To marginalize dems to where there is a permanent rethug majority. Fight, fight, fight. Your useless macho swagger will put you toe to toe. Further, this fight must go back to the states and start at the grassroots.

Posted by: jdp | Nov 9 2004 2:39 utc | 7

jdp, Serbs needed to use bulldozers…in the end…I was about to say hahaha, but it was not funy at all…

Posted by: vbo | Nov 9 2004 6:14 utc | 8

I’ve been thinking… I wonder if at least some of this backlash from the conservative xtian, often rural voters is connected to agribusiness. before you say Whoa Deanander, what have you been smoking, hear me out…
over the last 20-30 years — maybe 50 years but it’s been accelerating lately — the American rural population has been pushed to the wall by agribusiness in various ways. buying power has been concentrated in fewer and fewer hands (just like media) with giant food processing companies like ADM and ConAgra getting a headlock on the market, price fixing, etc. … commodity prices have been forced so low that many farmers are operating at a net loss. some lucky ones manage to work the state/fed subsidy system, but millions of others are in dire financial straits.
I read a few years ago that the suicide rate for farmers in the US was waaay up there, up among the top 5 or so by profession. one reason is the endless financial squeeze. not only the commodity pricing, rigged markets, cartels, etc. but also the eternal treadmill of pesticide and petrofertiliser dependency, overcapitalisation (deeply in debt after purchasing heavy equipment which then doesn’t pay for itself and costs a fortune to maintain). and then, compounding all this, comes along the GMO seed technology and having to pay license fees for seeds that were touted as “miracles” but in most cases produced smaller yields, leading to net loss for the farmer.
the result is that more and more farming families have been forced off their land by bankruptcy and foreclosure. more and more US farmland is owned by, guess what, just a handful of enormous agricorps. many farmers are now just shareholders on what used to be their family’s land, planting what they’re told to plant, spending most of their time operating machinery, living like factory workers. hence the depression, suicides, etc.
so here’s my thought. what if all this expropriation and loan sharking and destruction of communities has fuelled an enormous rage in the “heartland,” and what if it’s easy for these people to identify the corporate Baddies who are stealing their land and livelihood, with the “East Coast Big City Folks” (and West Coast Lazy Yuppie Buggers who refuse to pay a fair price for groceries)? what if a lot of this backlash is actually the fruit of our insane agricultural policy, ripening into something poisonous?
if so, seems to me that a program of land reform and sustainable farming revival could very quickly restore dignity, profit, and meaning to the lives of rural folks. I note that in at least one PA county where friends of mine live, the conventional (English) farmers are always moaning and whining about how bad life is, but the Amish with their low-tech, hands-on habits are thriving. now, the Amish are not exactly my model farmers — they use a lot of pesticides, which may seem contradictory but at present even the Old Order Rule permits it. but they do demonstrate that a prosperous life is possible on the land, if your idea of prosperity is modest (doesn’t include 3 SUVs and several monster harvesters etc) and you don’t try to farm more land than your family can deal with.
anyway, just a thought that floated through my head — we’ve abused and short-changed and kicked around our farmers for half a century, and now — surprise — they’re angry. and there are clever people waiting in the wings to tell them just whom to be angry with.

Posted by: DeAnander | Nov 9 2004 7:45 utc | 9

DeAnander,
I think you might be on to something there. I do not know if you are right, but it sure makes a lot of sense.
Maybe Bernhard you could start a new thread on this topic!?

Posted by: Fran | Nov 9 2004 8:02 utc | 10

Seems like I saw someplace today that Bushes numbers actually fell 2% in rural / small town America this last election, while his urban numbers rose 7%. While this flies in the face of conventional wisdom, at some point these folks are going to, collectively hit bottom — so maybe they have.

Posted by: anna missed | Nov 9 2004 8:16 utc | 11

While doing some scores I was thinking about DeAnander’s post above. I think he really is on to something and this is not only a topic for the US. Pulling up what I remember about history from my memory, haven’t revolutions often been started because they wanted land-reforms, when the farmers have been disenfranchised? (not sure about the spelling). Farmers used to be called the ‘salt of the earth’ because salt used to be very precious. I also have been thinking besides the anger and voting of the US farmers, what is happening to them is also responsible for the detoriation of the environment.
I hope DeAnander post will start a disscusion.

Posted by: Fran | Nov 9 2004 8:21 utc | 12

I’m not the only one wondering about the possibilities for revival in the stripmined heartland of America. this proposal from Steve Ongerth may be a bit simplistic — every proposal is always simplistic on paper, unless it’s the size of the Encyc Brit, and then who would read it? — but I think he has an idea worth exploring.

Posted by: DeAnander | Nov 9 2004 8:33 utc | 13

George Monbiot sees the US not on the way to fashism but puritanism

Ronan Bennett’s excellent new novel, Havoc in its Third Year, about a Puritan revolution in the 1630s, has the force of a parable. An obsession with terrorists (in this case Irish and Jesuit), homosexuality and sexual licence, the vicious chastisement of moral deviance, the disparagement of public support for the poor: swap the black suits for grey ones, and the characters could have walked out of Bush’s America.
So why has this ideology resurfaced in 2004? Because it has to. The enrichment of the elite and impoverishment of the lower classes requires a justifying ideology if it is to be sustained. In the US this ideology has to be a religious one. Bush’s government is forced back to the doctrines of Puritanism as an historical necessity. If we are to understand what it’s up to, we must look not to the 1930s, but to the 1630s.

Posted by: b | Nov 9 2004 8:34 utc | 14

@annamissed, some of those city folks are country folks now living in urban poverty. worldwide the pattern is the same, when peasants are forced off their land they head for the cities where some kind of a life can be eked out — on welfare, or by begging or stealing or dealing. I wonder how many people in the hollowed-out cities of the Midwest have lived there more than a generation or a half-generation? the decline in the number of rural families is precipitous — scary!

Posted by: DeAnander | Nov 9 2004 8:35 utc | 15

from Kevin Drum
*
Finally, his support was up by 10 points in urban areas and down by 2 points in rural communities, including a surprising 9 point decrease from residents of small towns. This goes against a whole bunch of conventional wisdom (including mine) about the growing urban/rural divide in America. If anything, it seems to have narrowed in this election.

Posted by: anna missed | Nov 9 2004 8:43 utc | 16

DeAnander’s thoughts on the farm vote is a field
that has already been well ploughed by Thomas Frank
in his book

What’s the matter with Kansas?

which takes it’s title from an earlier classic.
Frank’s book has a lot of interesting “local color” as well, including a charming chapter on Kansan “sede vacantisme”.

Posted by: Hannah K. O’Luthon | Nov 9 2004 9:17 utc | 17

Oops, I see that Frank’s book is cited in DeAnander’s other link.

Posted by: Hannah K. O’Luthon | Nov 9 2004 9:20 utc | 18

@DA
Your link, those ideas are good, reminds me of the success that some farmers have found in going organic and making it work. Where I live there are also quite a few co-op small agri-business that are doing okay with a kind of subscription farming, albeit on a small scale — it is working now for some years.
As far as understanding the big picture, historically, with relation to this seeming theocratic revolution I found the Digby post yesterday very interesting, even though as an ideology it’s hard to pin it down, it does have some ring of truth about it, particularly how religion can make it’s appeal palitable to more base emotions of raceism and the like.

Posted by: anna missed | Nov 9 2004 9:31 utc | 19

Please try to disregard my bad spelling as I went through school in Ohio.

Posted by: anna missed | Nov 9 2004 9:40 utc | 20

whats happening with “memory hole”?
http://www.thememoryhole.org/
All we need memory.!

Posted by: curious | Nov 9 2004 9:47 utc | 21

DeAnander – I would like to second your post with the French experience.
I am pissed off at French farmers because they get endless subsidies, and they do nasty demonstrations whenever their costs go up (as now with fuel prices) or their sales go down (oversupply, bad weather, etc…), plus it polluted the whole European debate with France using a lot of its political capital to protect these damn subsidies…
…and the fact is that the subsidies go to the big farmers, the agri-businessman, who are quite wealthy, with the smaller farmers struggling endlessly with a weak economic situation, endless regulation and red tape.
The sad fact is that the samll farmers are totally manipulated by the system, which is really mafia-like. Their whole life is controlled by their local Crédit Agricole branch (who has the loans and the corresponding mortgages on their farming assets, their house and their income), and appropriately enough, the head of that branch is also usually the head of the FNSEA (the main farmers union, intimately linked to Chirac’s RPR – now UMP – party) and also usually a local fat cat (the notary, the local big landowner, etc…). So the local “nobility” control the life of the farmers and feudal-like, “protect” them by using FNSEA’s lobbying favor to provide more subsidies – just enough that they can barely survive, but also use them as foot soldiers for the rioting bit of the lobbying.
(And riot is the right word. I have a friend in the Gendramerisd who tells me that they are scared to death of farmers’ demonstrations, because the farmzers are better armed than they are, and do not have rulles-of-engagement like they do…)
The poor farmers work their asses off, see endless regulation from “Brussels” which require more investment, they are indebted to their necks to the local baron, and they see dwindling support from the general population which is beginning to complain louder and louder about intensive agribusiness (in Brittany, there is almost no clean water anymore because of all the nitrates from industrial pig farms, for instance), expensive food prices (while wholesale prices are at record lows) and their incessant whining and crying for subsidies.
So they are indeed lost souls, easily manipulated by their local overlords, and blaming the whole world for an impossible situation.
On the other had, I don’t think there is much of a religious component in their situation.

Posted by: Jérôme | Nov 9 2004 11:04 utc | 22

I’ve been saying before that I am a “liberal” in both the American and the French (opposed) meanings of the word, and now the Economist has a similar editorial in their last edition.
I’ll shamelessly paste in a bit of that editorial (link, but it’s subscription only)

Nov 4th 2004
From The Economist print edition
There’s a word for that
And we want it back
ALL through this election campaign, George Bush has flung the vilest term of abuse he knows at John Kerry. You name the policy—Mr Kerry’s support for punitive taxes and reckless public spending, as Mr Bush put it; his preference for stifling government and overweening bureaucracy; his failure to stand up for, oh, expensive new weapons systems, microscopic embryos and the sanctity of marriage—and the president’s verdict in each case was the same. “There’s a word for that,” he said, again and again. “It’s called liberalism.”
What more need one say? And Mr Kerry was not just any sort of liberal: he had actually been the most liberal member of the Senate. When told this, appalled Republicans jeered more loudly than if Mr Bush had accused his challenger of eating babies. (That man dared to run for president! Did he think he would not be found out?) Understandably, Mr Kerry was sometimes wrong-footed by this egregious defamation. Occasionally, smiling nervously, he said he was not ashamed to be liberal. (Audacious, but perhaps unwise.) At other times he tried to deny it. (You see, he protests too much.) In America, that kind of accusation cannot easily be shrugged off.
Language
Stanford’s “Encyclopedia of Philosophy” defines liberalism.
“Liberal” is a term of contempt in much of Europe as well—even though, strangely enough, it usually denotes the opposite tendency. Rather than being keen on taxes and public spending, European liberals are often derided (notably in France) for seeking minimal government—in fact, for denying that government has any useful role at all, aside from pruning vital regulation and subverting the norms of decency that impede the poor from being ground down. Thus, in continental Europe, as in the United States, liberalism is also regarded as a perversion, a pathology: there is consistency in that respect, even though the sickness takes such different forms. And again, in its most extreme expression, it tests the boundaries of tolerance. Worse than ordinary liberals are Europe’s neoliberals: market-worshipping, nihilistic sociopaths to a man. Many are said to believe that “there is no such thing as society.”
Yet there ought to be a word—not to mention, here and there, a political party—to stand for what liberalism used to mean. The idea, with its roots in English and Scottish political philosophy of the 18th century, speaks up for individual rights and freedoms, and challenges over-mighty government and other forms of power. In that sense, traditional English liberalism favoured small government—but, crucially, it viewed a government’s efforts to legislate religion and personal morality as sceptically as it regarded the attempt to regulate trade (the favoured economic intervention of the age). This, in our view, remains a very appealing, as well as internally consistent, kind of scepticism.
Parted in error
Sadly, modern politics has divorced the two strands, with the left emphasising individual rights in social and civil matters but not in economic life, and the right saying the converse. That separation explains how it can be that the same term is now used in different places to say opposite things. What is harder to explain is why “liberal” has become such a term of abuse. When you understand that the tradition it springs from has changed the world so much for the better in the past two and a half centuries, you might have expected all sides to be claiming the label for their own exclusive use.
However, we are certainly not encouraging that. We do not want Republicans and Democrats, socialists and conservatives all demanding to be recognised as liberals (even though they should want to be). That would be too confusing. Better to hand “liberal” back to its original owner. For the use of the right, we therefore recommend the following insults: leftist, statist, collectivist, socialist. For the use of the left: conservative, neoconservative, far-right extremist and apologist for capitalism. That will free “liberal” to be used exclusively from now on in its proper sense, as we shall continue to use it regardless. All we need now is the political party.

I don’t always agree with the Economist, and I doubt that many of you on this site are fans, but I’m mostly with them on this one.

Posted by: Jérôme | Nov 9 2004 11:18 utc | 23

On family farms
The numbers of family farms has been decreasing for many years now. Most economists will tell you that the family farm concept is one that is grossly inefficient and not viable in today’s market. They are probably right inasmuch as factory farms have economy of scale that works to their advantage.
Farming has become high tech and the education required to thrive in this environment is usually much higher than that normally found on small farms.
There are many factors working against the small farmer. He must use pesticides, herbicides, fertilizers, irragation, and GM seeds or else the yield will not cover expenses. It rarely does anyway but without all of the above you lose at a much faster rate. The small farmer must purchase very expensive machinery because it would not be available to rent when needed. He is forced to have large capital investments sitting around for 11 months out of a year because no one else can afford to either.
There is almost universal hatred for the big commercial farms. These are run for profit and quick profit to boot. These guys buy huge tracts, get every federal handout there is, hire workers for seasonal work, and exploit everything around them for as long as they get a good return. Then when the soil is worn out and the handouts stop, they sell everything and leave.
Because of these very large commercial farms, crops sell for fewer actual dollars today then they did 50 years ago. If anyone were to look at the selling price for a bushel of wheat, you could only ask yourself “why is bread so expensive?”
It is not a pleasant situation for anyone. The small farmer gets screwed and consumers are not willing to pay more for food to help them out.
In this respect, I much admire the French who have a romantic tie to farming. There are great costs to society because of this and so far it seems to be borne by the French taxpayers without too much complaining.

Posted by: Dan of Steele | Nov 9 2004 11:41 utc | 24

Where I live, we have a booming organic and traditional farming community and a vibrant farmer’s market that sells in outdoor venues three days a week. There are Amish farmers, hippie farmers, long-time area family farmers, Asian immigrant farmers (with great Asian pears, btw). They sell produce, cheese, yarn, meat, plus flowers and rugs…
Local restaurants have made arrangements to get their produce from these local farmers, too.
You have to buy their produce, rather than agri-biz produce, in order for them to survive. You have to buy heirloom vegetables in order for them to survive. You have to buy a variety of, say, apples in order to have a variety of apples…and in order to save the world from modified and monoculture farming.
It’s as simple as that.
Where I live, lots of people support local farmers. You can ask your grocery store where their produce comes from and tell them that you want to buy locally-grown produce, and will shop at a place that sells it.
The market extends into November here…and I live in a place where it can and does snow in November.
Or grow your own, instead of buying agri-biz produce, if the cost for fresh produce seems too great. Eat seasonally, as well, if you want to make agri-biz less powerful.
Anyone want a great, traditional recipe for red cabbage? 🙂 I’ve got several heads of the same out in my backyard. Typically, you eat it with potatoes and pork (although I can’t get really good sausage here), but if you’re a vegetarian, you can skip the pork or substitute tofu, I suppose.
Think globally, eat regionally.

Posted by: fauxreal | Nov 9 2004 13:03 utc | 25

@ fauxreal: Bring on the recipe! The selection of soy based meat substitutes gets better and better. There is on the market now, an Italian flavored “sausage” and a “bratwurst” too. Not bad.

Posted by: beq | Nov 9 2004 13:23 utc | 26

Dollar decline gathers momentum
How about a corresponding thread?

Posted by: MarcinGomulka | Nov 9 2004 14:03 utc | 27

mmmm Tofurky Italian Sausange 🙂 It’s good!
I’d like the read the recipe, fauxreal. I’m a big supporter of the small farmer, especially those who are experimenting.

Posted by: x | Nov 9 2004 14:25 utc | 28

i remember hearing a statistic that only 2% of the US population are farmers. i see a figure from 2000 citing farming, fishing & forestry making up a combined 2.5% of the work force by occupation. i would expect that the majority of small farmers know where to direct their angers, at the monster agbiz corporations, rather than the end user. my limited exp w/ family farmers is that they know their land and understand where the money goes.
i find it more substantial to indict the merchants of spin. relatedly, douglas rushkoff takes the reins on another frontline rpt tonite, the persuaders

FRONTLINE takes an in-depth look at the multibillion-dollar “persuasion industries” of advertising and public relations and how marketers have developed new ways of integrating their messages deeper into the fabric of our lives. Through sophisticated market research methods to better understand consumers and by turning to the little-understood techniques of public relations to make sure their messages come from sources we trust, marketers are crafting messages that resonate with an increasingly cynical public. In this documentary essay, correspondent Douglas Rushkoff (correspondent for FRONTLINE’s “The Merchants of Cool”) also explores how the culture of marketing has come to shape the way Americans understand the world and themselves and how the techniques of the persuasion industries have migrated to politics, shaping the way our leaders formulate policy, influence public opinion, make decisions, and stay in power.

Posted by: b real | Nov 9 2004 15:30 utc | 29

How does one eat soy in the US and not support big Agriculture? Are there still independent seed and growers of soy?

Posted by: mdm | Nov 9 2004 15:31 utc | 30

There are family farmer soy growers, but of course I couldn’t tell you what percentage of the market they make up.
Jerome re subsidies: I doubt if you’d find a single democratic country in the world that doesn’t give those subsidies to farmers and suffer from the same problems. It is a big deal everywhere and it’s an important point. In the EC maybe more people take a look at it, but we’ve got the same sorts of problems here.

Posted by: x | Nov 9 2004 15:46 utc | 31

Indeed, from what I’ve observed, farm subsidies, “market” pressures, small farmers being screwed up, talk about reducing subsidies or actual reductions, seem to be widely spread in the industrialised world. Alas, the trend seems to be the same pretty everywhere, with some countries where they’re really completely screwed, and others where they’re gonna be screwed big time.
By the way, Jérôme, what’s your take on the current mess in Ivory Coast? I remember having met some French guy on a whole other board, who was basically saying this was all a plot of the US to take control of all W Africa, so that they wouldn’t have much trouble or competition to get the oil there. Abidjan still seems a bit far from Nigeria to me.

Posted by: Anonymous | Nov 9 2004 16:00 utc | 33

*kicks his keyboard*
Dang, that was me above.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Nov 9 2004 16:01 utc | 34

The scam is so simple. The key sale word is ‘efficiency’.
New legislation is crafted by the lobbysts in such a way as to be beneficial to Big Agriculture. Those companies receive the same support per ton of product, but also benefit from their own economies of scale.
Small farmers benefit, too, so that they defend the legislation. They get a few thousand bucks. But in the long run they get eaten by the bigger fish.
You see, when legislation is crafted, it obviously has to promote productivity and discourage form waste. It has to be ‘efficient’. You produce more, you get more.
But since we are talking about subsidies, they already ARE a distortion of the market. If their are supposed to be a solution to a social problem (farmer bankruptcies), why make them ‘efficient’?
Bio-fuels are such a scam. (the rural parties in the Polish Parliament want it) If you legislate that gasoline has to contain 5% of bio-fuels, there will be a huge demand for it from the refineries. They will prefer huge, reliable suppliers, not the tiny farms, whose welfare is the moral justification.

Posted by: MarcinGomulka | Nov 9 2004 16:07 utc | 35

Dan of Steele,
Farming has become high tech and the education required to thrive in this environment is usually much higher than that normally found on small farms.
You have pinpointed here the real betrayal of the farmers, the one that makes them pissed at liberals, the one that turned them Red. They never expected agribusiness to be on their side, but they did expect professors and colleges of agriculture to teach them to farm better. They were wrong.
For a century now, professors of agriculture have taught an approach to farming that constitutes occupational suicide. “Want to succeed? Borrow to farm larger, to farm modern.” So they borrowed and modernized, but the moment they got on the cash-borrowing interest-paying economy they were screwed. You know who they’re mad at? The ‘friends’ who betrayed them. And the friends are us, the ones who blithely assumed that liberal economic theory worked for family farms.
Family farms only make money when they don’t spend it.
Seeds come from last year. Horses power the tools and fertilize the fields. The fields power the horses. The family works without wages, and feeds itself from the fields and garden. No cash outlays (except for tool repair).
This is slightly simplified, but immensely more accurate than the idea that family farms can afford 6-12% interest on tractors, fertilizer, loans for bigger fields, etc. Farms are generational trusts, not franchises. The ruining of the farms may have been aided by TV and agribusiness, but farmers only learned to sell themselves out when their kids came back from agricultural schools and committed themselves to loans to make “bigger, better, more modern” farms. They are mad at the professors and the governments that hired them. They are mad at the pointy headed folks who taught them to betray themselves.
And they’re right – we are the enemy. The only way to get on their side is if we start generating and supporting actual writers on agriculture who will teach real farm economics ( “laws of the hearth”): that family businesses have to separate themselves from the loan economy.
Liberals, to actually support farmers, may wish to learn
1) that family businesses are under attack from the entire field of economics.
2) that family businesses should be defended from economics and agriculture departments.
3) that child labor within the family enterprise is not disgusting, but a meaningful apprenticeship.
As always, I am too crude. But this is the screaming heart of how badly we sell out our people – so badly that they can’t even recognize their own interests. The small orgo farmers are not so deceived, and its time we stopped supporting the deceivers.

Posted by: Citizen | Nov 9 2004 17:08 utc | 36

yes, there are family farm soy growers. some are in my family. they switched from tobacco to soy as a cash crop years ago. If you shop at a grocery co-op, you can also find other soy product makers.
Okay, Red Cabbage
(please pardon for this digression)
..and this one…
because I have to first make sure you know how to boil potatoes.
to go with red cabbage, you want “old” potatoes, not new (waxy) ones. anyway, you peel and cut the pototates and boil them in (salted) water. then you drain the water out of them when they are soft enough to break apart. THEN, you either 1. put them back on a VERY LOW heat and shake the pot until they are flaky, or 2. you can also try putting a (clean) dishtowel on top of them to absorb moisture and shake them until they’re flaky.
so here’s the recipe for Choux Rouge aux Pommes (which you can and should make well ahead of the actual meal)
Put 2 T. butter in a heavy casserole/pot and add 2 large, thinly sliced onions. Over LOW heat, cook the onions, stirring frequently, until soft. do not brown.
Add 1 firm head of RED cabbage (about 8 cups)
Cover and lower the heat and cook, without stirring, for about 15 minutes. Check to make sure the heat is low enough and shake the pot to keep the cabbage from scorching. Add a little (1/4 cup) water if the cabbage is scorching…and lower the heat…
Add 4 granny smith or other tart cooking apples (peeled, cored and sliced thinly)
1/8 cup sugar (older recipes call for more, but I cut it in half)
1/4 cup water
Salt, pepper
1/4 teaspoon of nutmeg
Stir all this in with the cabbage and onions.
Simmer over LOW HEAT and COVERED for one and a half hours….you have to let it cook this long, btw or the flavors will not blend and taste right.
okay, no more recipes today, I promise.

Posted by: fauxreal | Nov 9 2004 17:10 utc | 37

IQ and Politics
Just got this in my e-mail and apparently it’s making the rounds.

Posted by: kat | Nov 9 2004 17:28 utc | 38

Marcin, I agree. Medley:
US and EU agriculture is massively subsidised, as we all know.
My experience of small (and I stress small, and include organic farmers in France, but in the South..) is different from Jerome’s. While they may beef at this and that (e.g. the asparagus crops no longer being economically viable because of competition from Spain) they all know they are living off those subsidies and are thankful for them.
Some live just off the subisidies. Literally. They slash, lay fallow, plant and grow according to a scheme decided in Brussels. One year sunflowers (seeds, oil, save water), another year melons, etc. They don’t like that too much .. and talk of communist central organisation (negatively). One family I know has sent three kids to college by abandoning its vines. (Damn shame, the wine was delicious.)
However, they well realise they cannot sell -say apricots, though that example is from CH- on the open market and make a profit.
The more ambitious ones have made money, and will make more, by investing in and developing specialist products, going for niche markets, etc., such as expensive wines, fig jam, smoke cured ham, etc. About that, the newspapers report regularly with fanfare.
Many are aware that the totting up the subsidies they receive and the hidden costs which are partly paid for (gas, nitrogen fertiliser, water at a low price, reduction on agricultural machinery, etc.) and their output, what they can sell it for, renders any proper accounting or inititative impossible. They have become dependent. (US farmers are in the same position but dont seem to realise it?)
Result: apathy and an undergound economy. All have family gardens, all practise barter.
As the Swiss say, hey it is a pity that you can’t outsource cows. Nor just ship em off elsewhere.
Ha ha. Though there is one person who has done that – Mixed breed Hollsteins or whatever (I’m not up on cows) – sent em to Mexico! Sells French camembert in Mexico and imports Emmenthaler and Gruyère back into Switzerland!
Lot of red tape but profitable allright.
Insanity.
All that said, as pointed out above, the % of farmers in the US is tiny. Most of the people who voted for Bush are not suffering because of a dying, mortgage-called-back, farms. They are suffering because their income is small (wall-mart, carpet business, fishing, loss of industrial and manufactuing jobs, no market for minimal secretarial skills, dependency on world market for soy beans, no cultural edge, failing shops, no clients in small service biz..etc….), the education of their children is dismal …and they know it.

Posted by: Blackie | Nov 9 2004 18:19 utc | 39

I’ll just add my usual $.02 on “efficiency”.
neolib/capitalist notions of efficiency focus on one thing only: more output for less labour , or How To Disemploy the Maximum Number of Workers While Still Cranking Out the Goods. how all those disemployed workers will pay for the goods is left to chance — or rather, to a blithe assumption that runaway population growth is a viable solution to that little detail.
sustainable farming practise, in its current highly developed incarnation, produces more food per acre than industrial monocropping. I do not refer to “primitive” farming practise — some ancient practises are brilliantly sustainable and some are downright stupid. today we have accumuulated quite a body of knowledge about “what works,” combining the multi-millennial history of human ag with the latest in electron microscopic analysis of the life within soils.
however, the way to produce more food per acre and preserve soil health is (a) diversification, i.e. each acre producing a wide variety of plant life, and (b) highly skilled labour with local knowledge. not necessarily backbreaking labour “from can to can’t” as the old saying goes, but daily, expert tending and deep local knowledge of climate, soil, beneficial and predatory insects etc.
the Fordist/Taylorist model of industrial “efficiency” is quite the reverse. it desires minimally skilled labour (so as to reduce pay scales to a minimum) reproducing rote, standardised actions as rapidly as possible. it requires monocropping (the ruthless elimination of crop diversity) in order to facilitate the use of single-purpose, highly specialised harvesting equipment (to eliminate human labour and human intelligence in the harvesting process). this model serves very well if you want to crank out the maximum number of handguns per hour (as Remington discovered, and Ford ran with the idea) but cannot be successfully applied to any living system.
I think we see every day the fallacies of trying to apply Fordism/Taylorism to such organic systems as teaching, doctoring and farming. we see a temporary apparent “reduction in price,” i.e. getting something for nothing which any physicist can tell you is a pipe dream; then we see a dreadful degradation in quality (the produce in the veggie section of the average US supermarket is unbelievably poor quality, particularly the fruits — my farming ancestors would have fed it to the hogs because no paying customer would eat it); and lastly we get a sort of “God is not mocked” karmic catch-up or whiplash whereby the wasteful and destructive short cuts we resorted to in our frantic search for “efficiency” catch up with us and drive real prices steeply upwards (in the case of farming, erosion, soil death, water table pollution, salination, toxic residues…). I could recite the parallel list of apparent benefits and real costs along the ballistic curve of the fishing industry, but I think the point is made.
aside from the profligate waste of resources when we try to “factory-ise” living systems, there are other indirect costs. the more Fordist/Taylorist we become, the more passionately we worship economy of scale and standardisation, the more power we put into fewer and fewer hands as larger and larger areas of effort are concentrated under pointy little pyramids of ownership and management, and smaller and smaller committees set the “standards” to which we then force large numbers of people to conform. in short, in our pursuit of what we imagine is a purely Capitalist (in the religious sense) ideal of Efficiency, what we end up constructing is massive sectors with fully centralised management, i.e. the Command Economies which we are supposed to mistrust and reject! and the folks running these mini-command-economies don’t even have an ostensible ideology of collective welfare driving their decisions, only the ever-dangling carrot of Increased Productivity and Profit.
the end result, as Jerome describes in French agriculture, is serfdom: serfdom for doctors trapped in the massive HMO mechanism controlling American healthcare, serfdom for teachers trapped in America’s vast, overmanaged, underfunded, understaffed schools; serfdom for American farmers trapped between impatient creditors and skinflint buyers. nowhere in the magic incantations of Efficiency is there a term for the calculation of human immiseration and the curtailment of freedom, or the line item cost of eviscerating from human life the guts of what makes it worth living: self-determination, skill, expertise, the satisfaction of work well done, to one’s own standards, managed and planned by oneself. the entire drive of industrial culture, cynically orchestrated by the profiteers at the very top, has been to destroy the craftsman, the yeoman farmer, the family business, the trades, and replace them with obedient serfs following the instructions in three ring binders. and if you don’t believe me, read Ray Kroc. (Highly recommended: Fast Food Nation for a popularised, easy-reading history of Taylorism and the food/ag sector in the US, and The McDonaldization of Everyday Life for a somewhat more philosophical/scholarly critique of corporate Taylorism and its inroads on personal freedoms and public space.)
and I haven’t even touched on the prime fallacy of the Taylorist/corporate ag model, which is that we spend 10 times as many calories in fossil fuel as we’re getting back in food. there is only one currency, and that’s energy. we’re operating our agricultural system at a net loss of 900 percent — literally “eating oil.” this is the magic trick that enables us to pretend that corporate, overcapitalised, Taylorised, monocrop agriculture is “efficient”. it’s only “efficient” if we prop it up with billions of gallons of refined petroleum per annum. take away the intravenous feed of crude, and (as the Cubans discovered when the USSR went under and their oil supply dried up) factory ag simply doesn’t work.
apologies for any typos. I am typing in haste w/o time to proof read.

Posted by: DeAnander | Nov 9 2004 18:27 utc | 40

@Blackie, sorry I don’t think my original post was quite clear. I was speculating that a chunk of the Bush support bloc in the cities of the Red persuasion (isn’t it funny how the pundits have reversed the traditional meaning of “Red” in US politics?) may be the children of ex-farming families, with a family history of despair and resentment. I mean, my old Mum still loathes the French because of the Norman Conquest — don’t tell me peasants can’t hold a grudge. the destruction of family farming has taken quite a few decades and its victims, many of them, may be slaving away at WalMart now, but they have living memory or oral tradition of a better time before those city slickers ruined everything.

Posted by: DeAnander | Nov 9 2004 18:30 utc | 41

Yes DeA, quite right. Long memories. Yes.
The color coding of the parties in the US throws me off everytime. Here, progressives are shaded red to pink, and conservatives blue (blue blood) to yellow – muddy colors. Green is for – greens. Orange is used for wildcats!
The whole rainbow is represented.
The ‘automobiliste’ party (now defunct) had trouble finding a color – they finally picked orange.
The prostitute lobby chose -after 10 or so committee meetings – purple!

Posted by: Blackie | Nov 9 2004 19:01 utc | 42

Yes DeA, quite right. Long memories. Yes.
The color coding of the parties in the US throws me off everytime. Here, progressives are shaded red to pink, and conservatives blue (blue blood) to yellow – muddy colors. Green is for – greens. Orange is used for wildcats!
The whole rainbow is represented.
The ‘automobiliste’ party (now defunct) had trouble finding a color – they finally picked orange.
The prostitute lobby chose -after 10 or so committee meetings – purple!

Posted by: Blackie | Nov 9 2004 19:03 utc | 43

DeAnander
You make a very good point about the cost of energy not being considered. At Speakeasy we briefly discussed the corn burning stove. I was stunned to find that shelled corn was less expensive than pellets made of sawdust. That truly speaks volumes about how much of an impact cheap energy has on agriculture.

Posted by: dan of steele | Nov 9 2004 19:06 utc | 44

again a fascinating thread (although not so much about liberalism…)
In France, you still have very lively markets several days a week, so i suppose that many farmers still produce “organically” and sell locally. Of course, this is most certainly undercounted in the official statistics, but it’s quite real and you do get high-quality (if expensive) produce. Also definitely worth it for the life, both social and economic, that it brings along.
The European CAP (Common Agriculture policy) was designed at a time when food supply was still an issue, and sadly, it shows that well-meaning subsidies are impossible to eliminate even when they have fulfilled their role. The stay on, create bad incentives (in that case, an endless quest for hiher productivity) and constrain everybody’s behavior; Those that live off that (banks, bureaucrats, unions) fight to preserve the status quo and everybody feels that they have to make do with (and make the best of) “the system”, thus perpetuating the whole thing. Sad.
In France, you had this strong attachment to land/earth – everybody’s grandfather was a farmer, and thus everybody sees farmer with tenderness and thus supports their subsidies and tolerates their antics. (As a French person with 4 urban – and university-educated – grandparents, I’m definitely out of tune with my compatriotes there).
re – taylorism/fordism. it does make sense when tasks are endlessly repeated and require little or no quilifications. The model is becoming less and less relevant these days. when you have highly specialised tasks which require highly qualified workers, you are in a totally different logic, and that’s where most of Europe’s industry and a growing part of its agriculture is.

Posted by: Jérôme | Nov 9 2004 20:17 utc | 45

Efficiency is a good thing in principle – if it means using less of any resource (whether raw materials, energy, or people’s time) to get to the same end result. What is wrong is if efficiency is reached by switching from use of measured resources to use of “invisible” – or unaccounted for – resources. In that case, it’s not really efficiency, but it’s sometimes devilishly hard to identify uncorrectly accounted for resources.
To take natural resources like oil: how do you properly account for it? Does it mean putting it back into the ground? does it mean recycling it back somehow? How long a cycle is acceptable?
Could you say for instance that a “fair” use of oil would be to help put in place the tools that allow to generate an equivalent quantity of energy on a fully renewable basis? In which case, who should get the initial value from the oil: those that, by luck, “owned” it under their feet, or those that make something sustainable out of it?
Is an energy-based acocunting system realistic? Is the value of any commodity in its energy potential? For instance, carbon as methane, oil or other complex molecules is more valuable than as CO2, but it’s still carbon. But how do you put in place a similar accounting for metals or other elements? Is their value the (chemical) energy to put them in a usable state? Their concentration (mercury or iron as x ppm per liter of water in the sea is not very valuable, but it’s still there)? But available energy is potential limitless (solar rays provide several orders of magnitude more energy than we can use in the foreseeable future, not to mention nuclear energy in every atom), so all we potentially need are the processes to put back the molecules in the states where we need them. where is the value there? where is the efficiency?
To be honest, i am thinking out here, with no ready answers, but I am not sure that the answer lies in being less efficient. Efficiency is only a toll to get to what we need more easily. If we don’t know what we need/want, we get caught up in the process and forget the ends, but that out fault, not efficiency’s fault…
To get back to our initial theme: liberalism is about having more choice. That means that you can always choose to be “less efficient” (in money terms) if this is worth somethng else to you. More choice is not a bad thing. Having a superficially more attractive option does not mean that you should necessarilty take it – and that you can blame “freedom of choice” for the consequences of your choice on your other, less visible, priorities.
Oh well… I’m not sure if I’m still making sense at this point. Feel free to criticise! (yes, yet another superficially attractive choice…)

Posted by: Jérôme | Nov 9 2004 20:35 utc | 46

No one around?

Posted by: Jérôme | Nov 10 2004 8:18 utc | 47

Thanks to Jérôme for the comments and links.
I mention that Justin Raimondo is, as usual right on target
with regard to the emerging campaign to convince Americans that they have to attack (oops, make that
“liberate” ) Iran. By the way, Raimondo is proudly
and insistently a libertarian, so by no stretch of the imagination a lefty. I thought there were a lot more like him, or at least, many other “reasonable rightists” who abhor Bush as much or more than the
left does. Indeed, the Kerry campaign collected quite a number of them, including the former governor of Michigan and John Eisenhower. So, either I completely misunderstood what was happening in the U.S. (the more likely case), or
there is a further incongruity in the improvement in Bush’s vote getting abilities. Rhetorical question: can it be that he and Karl Rove managed to convoy an enormous group of “unreasonable rightists” to the polls to offset the defections of the “reasonable right”? Reason, of course, is in the eye of the beholder.

Posted by: Hannah K. O’Luthon | Nov 10 2004 11:00 utc | 48

@ Jérôme
I am immediately out of my depth in any discussion of efficiency in economics, but do recall that one of the
classical dialectics there is between efficiency and equity. Clearly a lot of people are trampled as the economic elephants impose there (varying) versions
of economic efficiency, and almost as clearly the ur-communist idea of total equity seems to have been
tried and found wanting. (Of course, it can be “saved”
if one asserts that it was never really tried, but, alas, the same holds for lots of other great ideas like “love thy neighbor”: inspirational but not susceptible of implementation.) Does the efficiency of a WalMart produce more misery for the masses than its low prices mitigate? Most in this forum would undoubtedly respond that it does. Yet WalMart style economies of scale should be (or should have been) the strong point of large socialized economies like the Soviet Union or China. In the former they never seem to have materialized in a convincing way (except perhaps in the production of outstanding textbooks),
but maybe the Chinese are in the process of giving the world a better model for reconciling the two opposites than is currently “on the market”. Bettering the models of economic relations already available in Western Europe, Japan, and yes, even the U.S. won’t be a trivial task The risk of a Chinese “capitalist involution” is all too evident but given the lately demoralizing status of “the leading nation of the free world” it’s hard to be hopeful that good news is going to be coming from the U.S. over the next four years. I am one of those who think that the fundamental cause for the collapse of the Soviet Union
was the presence of a prosperous and democratic Western Europe “right at the doorstep”. Is a rich and
Marxist-Confucian China the only hope for moderating the rapacious tendencies of the current U.S. ruling clique? If so, it looks like we’ll be waiting even more than 4 years.

Posted by: Hannah K. O’Luthon | Nov 10 2004 11:37 utc | 49

BTW, Justin Raimondo endorsed Nader in the 2004 elections. His argument was that Nader was the real conservative in the race – conservative as defined in the early 1960’s. As Billmon said in a post months ago, the fringes on the right and left have similar positions on issues that are of paramount importance today (aggressive foreign policy, corporate dominance of govt that drives foreign and domestic policy, media consolidation, privacy, social issues, separation of church and state, Israel and Palestine, black box voting, etc.). One would think we would put aside our differences and come together to tackle these issues.

Posted by: lonesomeG | Nov 10 2004 15:16 utc | 50

It’s strange how things are shifting around. Similar, somewhat, to LonesomeG’s point above, I was struck by the thoughts in the recent rant posted at Steve Gilliard’s blog via email from a reader: They Voted For This Mess and how they compared to my Republican mother’s longterm complaints about what’s wrong with the country that I’ve heard for decades. Strongly pro-choice, she was always one of those conservatives who resented standing in line behind people paying for groceries at the supermarket with welfare stamps who never bothered to budget their purchases and clip coupons as she did, etc. The rant at Gilliard’s blog sounded like her reasons for having historically voting Republican over the past couple of decades (that is, those before the Fundie era of the Republican party). The talk of succession of those who work harder, are more educated, self-made, and pay more taxes to pick up the tab for the dumbed down in the middle sounds all very familiar. There’s something important in that, I think.

Posted by: x | Nov 10 2004 15:31 utc | 51

sorry for lack of proofreading: that should be “lonesomeG” and “secession,” I think…

Posted by: Anonymous | Nov 10 2004 15:33 utc | 52

My uneducated take on efficiency is that “economies of scale” work well – to a point. Eventually, the scale gets so large that the bureauracy that runs them is too removed from the product(s) delivered to be efficient. Innovation and adjustment to circumstances becomes ponderous at best and sometimes impossible.
Top line management in large enterprises often know very little about the nuts and bolts of their enterprise. For example, new CEOs are often recruited from very different industries; the important thing at that level is to have experience running a large organization, not an understanding the actual day to day business they are in. However, these are the same people, along with the board members they appoint who are expected to be loyal to them, who have to provide leadership for that enterprise. Consequently, management can often pursue objectives that make sense to them but damage the underlying foundations of the business they manage. As an example, I believe Ford’s aggressive acquisition of other companies in the 1990’s – a management initiative – directed attention away from their cars, damaging their product line; more knowledgeable people might disagree, however. Another example might be Freddie Mac, where I worked for a while, which cobbled together financial “products” of questionable integrity for short term gain that may have serious financial repercussions for them in the future. A third might be MacIntosh in the 1980’s where Jobs brought in the CEO from Pepsi who sat on a cash cow for seven years without innovation until Microsoft became competitive. Enron might be another, where top line management jettisoned their original business, based on real assets, to become energy traders. Those at ground level in these businesses would probably have made very different decisions.
Another problem with being “large” is that fundametal shifts at ground level in a business that might require a change in strategy are generally not noticed by top line management until the problems are reflected in the books – much too late. (Just an aside, but I have wondered whether our current emphasis on marketing and image rather than product and delivery – style over substance, in my opinion – is related to the distance between top management and the large businesses they manage.) When the ground has moved underneath the behemoths, a shift unnoticed or misunderstood at the top of large organizations, innovation is only possible at ground level, the grass roots. My bottom line: huge economies of scale are not always the most efficient way to go in the long run, from either a business or a social perspective.

Posted by: Anonymous | Nov 10 2004 16:13 utc | 53

Oops. That was me above.

Posted by: lonesomeG | Nov 10 2004 16:19 utc | 54

This is my Party and I believe the way people should go.
Humanism is a progressive philosophy of life that, without supernaturalism, affirms our ability and responsibility to lead ethical lives of personal fulfillment that aspire to the greater good of humanity.

Posted by: Cloned Poster | Nov 10 2004 20:01 utc | 55

Geez, looks like I should have been checking in here more often, this place is hopping!
Here is something I think pertinent to the discussion (pardon me if it repeats something that has already been said, I don’t have time to read the entire thread tonight). I originally posted this over at LeSpeakeasy last night and as follow up to a very good post (as usual) from Deanander:

Deanander, I agree with your friend, option (c), going full bore, shameless progressive is the only answer. I would also say that everything else aside, a critical failure of both Gore and Kerry was in spelling out the big picture. Bush has his “vision thing”, which he lays out in Fundamentalist Christian code and cliches and thus somewhat limits its appeal, but it does appeal to his core, and more importantly inspires them.
Inspiration through narrative is critical to bring people in and making them passionate about whatever your focus is. The next Dem (liberal) candidate for prez, or whatever other office, has to lead the American people down a brightly lit path to an inspiring and hopeful destination. When you tell people that you will work to create jobs, save the environment, help lift people out of poverty, ease the national debt, it is much more effective and appealing if you tell them not only how you are going to do it, but – probably even more importantly – why. Everything needs to be tied together – and especially important for people of a conservative bent – how what you propose ties in to what has come before, how it relates to what JFK, FDR, Teddy Roosevelt, Lincoln, etc said and stood for, and what the end goal its: landing on the moon within the decade, the Great Society, a city on a hill, peace in our time, etc.
What Bush has to offer is Wal Mart inspiration, a cheap, souless imitation, spoiled by hypocricy; we need a candidate that brings back the “statesman”, the great orator model. And s/he can’t laps back into juvenile whoop ass mode, as even Barak Obama did after the election. You can express resolutness without resorting to rhetoric of spaghetii westerns. And if the rednecks still think you are a “pansy ass pussy”, acting a redneck won’t convice them either. Our pols also need to stop prevaricating and do some straight talking of their own. The single most damning thing against Kerry in my book was his hedging talk about Iraq. I, and I think alot of other people, would have respected him a lot more and found him more appealing if he had said, “Yes, that is exactly what I am saying, Mr. President, it is the wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time. I voted to give the President the ability to got to war, but he abused that power and misled not only the public but the Congress as well. I will be damned if I am going to sit by and see another genration go through the same hell I went through over another colossal lie…” By parsing his arguments against the war he minimized his own horrible experience and the tradgic experience of all Vietnam vets. It is a damn fucking shame he didn’t exhibit the same courage, and frankly judgement, he exhibited in combat. I guess getting old and powerful does that to you.
But when it comes down to it, our beliefs, convicitons, arguments and even goals are better than those of the other side, and more appealing. If the Democrat party could stop operating out of fear and start being more truthful (not just technically correct) and exhibit some of the fire that is (or should be) burning in their bellies, then we could make real and amazing progress. The Right has the fight, the Left needs to embrace that fighting spirit as well, but just as importantly we need to wage that fight from the heart, wage it out of concern for all, including our opponants; fight for our goals and against ideological barriers, not against the people who oppose us. The Christian Right, especially, is working from a seige mentality, a belief that everything they disaprove of is a personal affront and everyone not like them is a mortal enemy, for them it is Go(o)d vs. Evil. For us it must be Love and Hope against Hatred and Fear. Those are the true Good and Evil.
And we too can speak the language of morality and ethics and we don’t have to resort to religious language (if we don’t want to), because, as the Founders of this country stated: We hold these truths to be self evident. There are self evident truths, and they form a strong secular moral and ethical foundation, and in fact, I would argue that it is these self evident truths that underpin the truest and best religious codes of morality. The Left has to reclaim the word “values”, because as we all know, it takes more than lipservice to have them, and we have them.
The Bush Administration and its Religous Right allies have thrown down their cards, the Progressive Left has to answer, because our hand beats theirs any time, any place, any national emergency. The leadership of the Democrat party must find some courage to vigorously and enthusiastically back its convictions or we will have to find new leaders who will.

Posted by: Stoy | Nov 11 2004 5:57 utc | 56