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November 8, 2004
Liberals
Comments
Iranian.com? Posted by: Cloned Poster | Nov 8 2004 21:54 utc | 1 Regarding the political cartoon: The N word was always a perjorative term. The term liberal has become perjorative because our Dem leaders themselves have disowned it. They buy into the anti-liberal paradigm — and lose the battles that liberals would otherwise win. Posted by: gylangirl | Nov 9 2004 1:07 utc | 2 what a f**k up:
Let me restate this: a secret police is protecting profits for corporations. Unbelivable. Posted by: MarcinGomulka | Nov 9 2004 1:27 utc | 3 Marcin: No wonder, these bastards are also saying that having an illegal copy of M$ Word is basically akin to flying a plane into the WTC. Posted by: Clueless Joe | Nov 9 2004 1:43 utc | 4 Like I posted Friday over at ASZ, if some right wing asshole screws with me I will kick their ass. That is all they understand because they are not smart enough to think logically. I know I can outsmart them, but logic doesn’t penetrate their thick neanderskulls. Posted by: jdp | Nov 9 2004 2:12 utc | 5 jdp, Posted by: gylangirl | Nov 9 2004 2:15 utc | 6 The thing is talking logical is not going to work. I live in a rural area and some people I know will fight you when they are loosing the arguement. Posted by: jdp | Nov 9 2004 2:39 utc | 7 jdp, Serbs needed to use bulldozers…in the end…I was about to say hahaha, but it was not funy at all… Posted by: vbo | Nov 9 2004 6:14 utc | 8 I’ve been thinking… I wonder if at least some of this backlash from the conservative xtian, often rural voters is connected to agribusiness. before you say Whoa Deanander, what have you been smoking, hear me out… DeAnander, Posted by: Fran | Nov 9 2004 8:02 utc | 10 Seems like I saw someplace today that Bushes numbers actually fell 2% in rural / small town America this last election, while his urban numbers rose 7%. While this flies in the face of conventional wisdom, at some point these folks are going to, collectively hit bottom — so maybe they have. Posted by: anna missed | Nov 9 2004 8:16 utc | 11 While doing some scores I was thinking about DeAnander’s post above. I think he really is on to something and this is not only a topic for the US. Pulling up what I remember about history from my memory, haven’t revolutions often been started because they wanted land-reforms, when the farmers have been disenfranchised? (not sure about the spelling). Farmers used to be called the ‘salt of the earth’ because salt used to be very precious. I also have been thinking besides the anger and voting of the US farmers, what is happening to them is also responsible for the detoriation of the environment. Posted by: Fran | Nov 9 2004 8:21 utc | 12 I’m not the only one wondering about the possibilities for revival in the stripmined heartland of America. this proposal from Steve Ongerth may be a bit simplistic — every proposal is always simplistic on paper, unless it’s the size of the Encyc Brit, and then who would read it? — but I think he has an idea worth exploring. George Monbiot sees the US not on the way to fashism but puritanism
Posted by: b | Nov 9 2004 8:34 utc | 14 @annamissed, some of those city folks are country folks now living in urban poverty. worldwide the pattern is the same, when peasants are forced off their land they head for the cities where some kind of a life can be eked out — on welfare, or by begging or stealing or dealing. I wonder how many people in the hollowed-out cities of the Midwest have lived there more than a generation or a half-generation? the decline in the number of rural families is precipitous — scary! from Kevin Drum Posted by: anna missed | Nov 9 2004 8:43 utc | 16 DeAnander’s thoughts on the farm vote is a field Posted by: Hannah K. O’Luthon | Nov 9 2004 9:17 utc | 17 Oops, I see that Frank’s book is cited in DeAnander’s other link. Posted by: Hannah K. O’Luthon | Nov 9 2004 9:20 utc | 18 @DA Posted by: anna missed | Nov 9 2004 9:31 utc | 19 Please try to disregard my bad spelling as I went through school in Ohio. Posted by: anna missed | Nov 9 2004 9:40 utc | 20 whats happening with “memory hole”? Posted by: curious | Nov 9 2004 9:47 utc | 21 DeAnander – I would like to second your post with the French experience. Posted by: Jérôme | Nov 9 2004 11:04 utc | 22 I’ve been saying before that I am a “liberal” in both the American and the French (opposed) meanings of the word, and now the Economist has a similar editorial in their last edition.
I don’t always agree with the Economist, and I doubt that many of you on this site are fans, but I’m mostly with them on this one. Posted by: Jérôme | Nov 9 2004 11:18 utc | 23 On family farms Posted by: Dan of Steele | Nov 9 2004 11:41 utc | 24 Where I live, we have a booming organic and traditional farming community and a vibrant farmer’s market that sells in outdoor venues three days a week. There are Amish farmers, hippie farmers, long-time area family farmers, Asian immigrant farmers (with great Asian pears, btw). They sell produce, cheese, yarn, meat, plus flowers and rugs… Posted by: fauxreal | Nov 9 2004 13:03 utc | 25 @ fauxreal: Bring on the recipe! The selection of soy based meat substitutes gets better and better. There is on the market now, an Italian flavored “sausage” and a “bratwurst” too. Not bad. Posted by: beq | Nov 9 2004 13:23 utc | 26 Dollar decline gathers momentum Posted by: MarcinGomulka | Nov 9 2004 14:03 utc | 27 mmmm Tofurky Italian Sausange 🙂 It’s good! Posted by: x | Nov 9 2004 14:25 utc | 28 i remember hearing a statistic that only 2% of the US population are farmers. i see a figure from 2000 citing farming, fishing & forestry making up a combined 2.5% of the work force by occupation. i would expect that the majority of small farmers know where to direct their angers, at the monster agbiz corporations, rather than the end user. my limited exp w/ family farmers is that they know their land and understand where the money goes.
Posted by: b real | Nov 9 2004 15:30 utc | 29 How does one eat soy in the US and not support big Agriculture? Are there still independent seed and growers of soy? Posted by: mdm | Nov 9 2004 15:31 utc | 30 There are family farmer soy growers, but of course I couldn’t tell you what percentage of the market they make up. Posted by: x | Nov 9 2004 15:46 utc | 31 [OT] Soy Alert Posted by: b real | Nov 9 2004 15:46 utc | 32 Indeed, from what I’ve observed, farm subsidies, “market” pressures, small farmers being screwed up, talk about reducing subsidies or actual reductions, seem to be widely spread in the industrialised world. Alas, the trend seems to be the same pretty everywhere, with some countries where they’re really completely screwed, and others where they’re gonna be screwed big time. Posted by: Anonymous | Nov 9 2004 16:00 utc | 33 The scam is so simple. The key sale word is ‘efficiency’. Posted by: MarcinGomulka | Nov 9 2004 16:07 utc | 35 Dan of Steele, Posted by: Citizen | Nov 9 2004 17:08 utc | 36 yes, there are family farm soy growers. some are in my family. they switched from tobacco to soy as a cash crop years ago. If you shop at a grocery co-op, you can also find other soy product makers. Posted by: fauxreal | Nov 9 2004 17:10 utc | 37 IQ and Politics Posted by: kat | Nov 9 2004 17:28 utc | 38 Marcin, I agree. Medley: Posted by: Blackie | Nov 9 2004 18:19 utc | 39 I’ll just add my usual $.02 on “efficiency”. @Blackie, sorry I don’t think my original post was quite clear. I was speculating that a chunk of the Bush support bloc in the cities of the Red persuasion (isn’t it funny how the pundits have reversed the traditional meaning of “Red” in US politics?) may be the children of ex-farming families, with a family history of despair and resentment. I mean, my old Mum still loathes the French because of the Norman Conquest — don’t tell me peasants can’t hold a grudge. the destruction of family farming has taken quite a few decades and its victims, many of them, may be slaving away at WalMart now, but they have living memory or oral tradition of a better time before those city slickers ruined everything. Yes DeA, quite right. Long memories. Yes. Posted by: Blackie | Nov 9 2004 19:01 utc | 42 Yes DeA, quite right. Long memories. Yes. Posted by: Blackie | Nov 9 2004 19:03 utc | 43 DeAnander Posted by: dan of steele | Nov 9 2004 19:06 utc | 44 again a fascinating thread (although not so much about liberalism…) Posted by: Jérôme | Nov 9 2004 20:17 utc | 45 Efficiency is a good thing in principle – if it means using less of any resource (whether raw materials, energy, or people’s time) to get to the same end result. What is wrong is if efficiency is reached by switching from use of measured resources to use of “invisible” – or unaccounted for – resources. In that case, it’s not really efficiency, but it’s sometimes devilishly hard to identify uncorrectly accounted for resources. Posted by: Jérôme | Nov 9 2004 20:35 utc | 46 Thanks to Jérôme for the comments and links. Posted by: Hannah K. O’Luthon | Nov 10 2004 11:00 utc | 48 @ Jérôme Posted by: Hannah K. O’Luthon | Nov 10 2004 11:37 utc | 49 BTW, Justin Raimondo endorsed Nader in the 2004 elections. His argument was that Nader was the real conservative in the race – conservative as defined in the early 1960’s. As Billmon said in a post months ago, the fringes on the right and left have similar positions on issues that are of paramount importance today (aggressive foreign policy, corporate dominance of govt that drives foreign and domestic policy, media consolidation, privacy, social issues, separation of church and state, Israel and Palestine, black box voting, etc.). One would think we would put aside our differences and come together to tackle these issues. Posted by: lonesomeG | Nov 10 2004 15:16 utc | 50 It’s strange how things are shifting around. Similar, somewhat, to LonesomeG’s point above, I was struck by the thoughts in the recent rant posted at Steve Gilliard’s blog via email from a reader: They Voted For This Mess and how they compared to my Republican mother’s longterm complaints about what’s wrong with the country that I’ve heard for decades. Strongly pro-choice, she was always one of those conservatives who resented standing in line behind people paying for groceries at the supermarket with welfare stamps who never bothered to budget their purchases and clip coupons as she did, etc. The rant at Gilliard’s blog sounded like her reasons for having historically voting Republican over the past couple of decades (that is, those before the Fundie era of the Republican party). The talk of succession of those who work harder, are more educated, self-made, and pay more taxes to pick up the tab for the dumbed down in the middle sounds all very familiar. There’s something important in that, I think. Posted by: x | Nov 10 2004 15:31 utc | 51 sorry for lack of proofreading: that should be “lonesomeG” and “secession,” I think… Posted by: Anonymous | Nov 10 2004 15:33 utc | 52 My uneducated take on efficiency is that “economies of scale” work well – to a point. Eventually, the scale gets so large that the bureauracy that runs them is too removed from the product(s) delivered to be efficient. Innovation and adjustment to circumstances becomes ponderous at best and sometimes impossible. Posted by: Anonymous | Nov 10 2004 16:13 utc | 53 This is my Party and I believe the way people should go. Posted by: Cloned Poster | Nov 10 2004 20:01 utc | 55 Geez, looks like I should have been checking in here more often, this place is hopping!
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